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So... racist remarks are okay, but...

LOCKED DISCUSSION

But calling someone out for making racist remarks is not?
Anyone on the 'team' care to comment on that?

    1. re: monavano

      I'll pull up a chair to hear their response too.
      Their "policy," is complete bullshit. They should encourage people to just rip racist posters a new one.

    2. I've got my bucket of popcorn and a front row seat!

      I think with just 2 replies this has already been hit by the Mod's.....I actually thought this whole thread would be removed.

      2 Replies
      1. re: jrvedivici

        Ya...they're already doing damage control in here.
        It'll probably be gone soon enough, don't wanna hurt the feelings of our local racists.

        1. When did racist remarks show up? I've not seen any. If I did, I'd flag in a heartbeat.

          1 Reply
          1. re: c oliver

            I saw one on a local board about Hispanics new poster, hey my wife is Hispanic, flagged and promptly gone. Thanks Chowhound.

          2. Isn't there a flat out prohibition against attacking another poster regardless of reason? Who's to say what is just cause for personal attacks? The rule might let a racist get away with some comments but it's an easy one to administer.

            1 Reply
            1. re: Worldwide Diner

              There was no "attack" I simply commented that there was a perpetuation of a negative stereotype..
              http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/977713#

            2. In general, we're always going to remove negative remarks that are personally directed at another member of Chowhound, even when the names you're calling them may be justified and accurate.

              We don't usually remove things simply for being offensive , but might if they're blatant, angry racism or if the remarks are directed at another member of the site. You can always Flag or email us links to posts you're concerned about, and we'll take a look.

              12 Replies
              1. re: Jacquilynne

                i'm shocked that you have to qualify what sort of racism gets scrubbed.
                Is there inoffensive racism that's not blatant or angry?
                smh

                1. re: monavano

                  The things people report to us as racist range from fairly benign posts that debate whether it matters if the chef of a restaurant is from the same ethnic background as the cuisine the restaurant serves through to actual slurs directed in anger at other posters, so it's not as cut-and-dried as it might seem like it should be.

                  1. re: monavano

                    Hi, monovano:

                    Let me take you back to the conflagration I ignited by objecting to the "What is Whitey Food?" thread and demanding that it be taken down.

                    As that firestorm showed (much of which was later deleted to cleanse the record) the mods and their minders have indeed tolerated racist threads and posts. Last time I looked, there were multiple threads *about* that thread. The original thread alone had something like 500 posts.

                    To their credit, the offensive thread was ultimately taken down, but only after weeks of refusals, putative justifications, meta debates, and the intervention of CBS' Legal Department.

                    Racism and racists must be called out, even here.

                    Aloha,
                    Kaleo

                    1. re: kaleokahu

                      I remember that. Jeez, that was a beauty.

                  2. re: Jacquilynne

                    I was called a "bleeding heart liberal" for pointing out a benefit of limiting one's meat intake. I was offended & emailed the mods but the post wasn't taken down.

                    "In general, we're always going to remove negative remarks that are personally directed at another member of Chowhound..."

                    How did that fit the policy/practice?

                    1. re: thymeoz

                      Explain to me how the mod's are suppose to know your political views and or affiliations? I know people who would wear that title with pride, it could be a compliment, did you honestly suffer in some way from that?

                      1. re: jrvedivici

                        Not a question of my political views but of the hostile nature of the comment. Suffer? No, but I sure am not looking for hostility in reaction to a food-related comment made with benign intent.

                        1. re: thymeoz

                          I'm sorry but I fail to see hostility in that comment. It strictly seems to be an attempt to categorize or generalize your views. If the comment was "you're a no good piece of sh*t bleeding heart liberal" (example purposes only I am NOT calling you that) I could perhaps see your point of view. But I honestly don't see the term on its own as being offensive, I'm sorry you did.

                          1. re: jrvedivici

                            The site mods tell me the post in question was indeed removed -- I had checked on the thread before the post was taken down so didn't realize this.

                            I've never heard the term "bleeding heart liberal" used when it wasn't meant to be derogatory.

                            1. re: thymeoz

                              Good, I do sincerely hope you feel justice was served!

                        2. re: jrvedivici

                          It doesn't matter what his political views are. The remark was directed at the person, not the subject, and was intended as an insult.

                        3. re: thymeoz

                          I would have deemed that offensive and deserving of deletion.

                      2. I generally find that stupidity runs equally through all races. I find it much easier and somewhat less offensive to just call people idiot's regardless of what their race is. You can still make your point and not have to get yourself all messy with this racism stuff.

                        Honestly stupidity is truly color blind. I believe to help put an end to this potentially harmful and racist comments would should encourage each other to call each other stupid idiot's when upset.

                        3 Replies
                        1. re: jrvedivici

                          "Racism is lazy. There are so many good reasons to dislike people on an individual basis if you take the time to get to know them."

                          ~some comedian

                          1. re: jrvedivici

                            Would be nice. That's how pretty much any other forum I've been on has operated, and it worked better. People had to really back up their statements or risk getting called out. It lead to better content, better discussions, and better dispersal of knowledge.
                            I like being called out when I'm wrong, it's a great way to learn things. I don't really get upset if people are getting in my face. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

                            1. re: EatFoodGetMoney

                              I was flagged for making a seemingly derogatory reference. The site managers politely informed me of their concern, I did some research, and provided them a response on why I used it and where I had learned it. The post remained up.

                              I have no problem with the current system.

                          2. I've been informed that I'm not permitted to reference the racist remarks, I'm probably not allowed to link to the discussion, but I still do not understand why calling someone out for making those remarks would be removed, but the heinous remarks stay?

                            1. For the record, I did not call anyone a "racist" I called out the remarks as perpetuating a negative stereotype.

                              14 Replies
                              1. re: cgarner

                                A distinction with a difference.

                                1. re: cgarner

                                  The stereotypes in question are more funny than actually bad. Nobody actually believes them...do they?

                                  1. re: EatFoodGetMoney

                                    It’s no more funny than stereotyping Mexicans as lazy, sitting under a tree with a sombrero drinking tequila, or gay men as flamboyant, limp wrested, girly men, or Southerners as “white trash” who have missing teeth and don’t wear shoes, or Italians as grease-balls who are all mobbed up, or Jews as being cheap and greedy

                                    How are any of these stereotypes funny, can someone explain it to me?

                                    Is it funny that the stereotype includes that it’s black people on welfare?

                                    1. re: cgarner

                                      My take on EFGM's comment is that these racists notions are laughable, as in, they are so out there in left field, that you just have to shake your head and laugh.
                                      Not that the stereotypical images themselves are hilarious.

                                      I don't think EFGM is laughing at the Mexican/Asian/Gay person, I think EFGM is laughing at the ignorance of the racist.

                                      1. re: monavano

                                        Exactly.
                                        Thanks, I couldn't have said it better.

                                        1. re: EatFoodGetMoney

                                          Oh, good- I didn't want to speak for you.

                                          1. re: fldhkybnva

                                            Right, not "ha-ha" funny, just smh funny.
                                            There's a difference.
                                            It's a dismissive laugh, not a "omg, my face hurts!" belly laugh.

                                            1. re: monavano

                                              smh funny, yes I get that. There are many people I've met that it just seems insane that they believe such things or said such things that it's what-the-f-is-wrong-with-you "funny" except that they still probably believe whatever they said. Dismissing it is problematic because as someone mentioned above it just perpetuates the issue of covert racism.

                                              1. re: monavano

                                                It's funny in a Fox News (Or MSNBC) sort of way.

                                            2. re: monavano

                                              I'm going to guess that you've never been on the receiving end of these stereotypical comments or perceptions. I'm also going to guess that you've never encountered the ingrained and lingering bigotry that characterizes certain regions of the country about particular minority groups.

                                              If these racist notions are so laughable how to you account for the recently enacted law in Arizona (since declared to be unconstitutional) that allowed police to stop and question someone simply on the basis of their Hispanic appearance?

                                              It is hard to laugh at a racist or at the laws passed which perpetuate racism when one is on the receiving end.

                                              1. re: Indy 67

                                                And why we as a country must rely on the courts, especially the Federal courts, to protect the rights of all minorities instead of leaving it "up to the states" to decide issues of equal treatment for all.

                                                1. re: Servorg

                                                  I used to be disgusted by the colossal waste of resources from time spent passing laws that clearly won't pass scrutiny.

                                                  I used to gape in stunned surprise at the stupidity of legislators who had to know the legislation wouldn't survive. I mean, I'm not a constitutional scholar and if *I* can see it...

                                                  I'm over being surprised. The disgust at the waste remains.

                                      2. I have always liked how people can bash religions and people who subscribe to those religious beliefs but its the one who defends his faith that gets deleted.

                                        175 Replies
                                        1. re: jpc8015

                                          Oh CH, why would any of that be allowed? Maybe as it relates to food prohibitions.

                                          1. re: c oliver

                                            CH allows Americans to be called Yanks, which is offensive and derogatory, so there's that.
                                            Talk about stereotyping.

                                            1. re: monavano

                                              Really? Hmmmm I've been a "yank" my whole life, I've never found the comment offensive or derogatory. I hate missing out on being victimized, dammit it.

                                              Just me.....if you are very around MGZ and he mentions "yank" just run, don't walk away.

                                              1. re: jrvedivici

                                                The thread is about how loud "Yanks" are, and the term is not used in a kind way.
                                                It is used because they think Americans are loudmouths.
                                                As if we're a bunch of savages to them.
                                                It's offensive.

                                                1. re: monavano

                                                  I, too, found that thread mildly offensive. Just as you described, Americans were lumped together as loud-mouthed, ignoramuses who don't know how to behave when dining out in Europe. I did, however, get a kick out of the ex pats who jumped on the Yank hate bandwagon so as to differentiate themselves from those being ridiculed.

                                                  1. re: lynnlato

                                                    Yes, they tend to protest the loudest.

                                                    1. re: monavano

                                                      How soon we all forget.

                                                      The term "Yank" is hardly racist and I would even say it doesn't rise to the level of a mild pejorative.

                                                      It was used as a way to boost morale and tell the British that the Americans were coming to fight on their side in WW I and was popularized by George M Cohan in his very patriotic (propaganda ginned up to help in the war effort) song "Over There"

                                                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6hRD...

                                                      1. re: Servorg

                                                        That was then, this is now.
                                                        Many words evolve into derogatory meanings when used in certain contexts.

                                                        I don't believe I'm alone in disagreeing, and that's fine.

                                                        1. re: monavano

                                                          I worked with so many guys from the UK in the Middle East. They routinely referred to us as Yanks. The only time I offended one of them was when I called him a Limey and he let me know he was from Scotland and proud of it. If one of the Brits or Scottish guys was trying to get a rise out of an American (taking the Mickey as they liked to say and I told them we would say "needling" was a good Yank term) they would call us "Wanks" instead of Yanks.

                                                          We can always find something to take offense at. It's becoming a national pastime as far as I can see. How about we cut each other some slack and look for the positive and not the negative in most cases?

                                                          1. re: Servorg

                                                            Servorg - you are right. Us foreigners generally use the word "Yank" in a friendly way, much like people say Brits.

                                                            If we want to be insulting we say "septics" which is Cockney rhyming slang short for septic tank.

                                                        2. re: Servorg

                                                          In the southern U.S. it is almost always used in a derogatory manner.

                                                          1. re: lynnlato

                                                            Well they are still a little bitter. Lets check back in another 150 years.

                                                              1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                In another 150 years we'll still hate Yankees! :-)

                                                                1. re: carolinadawg

                                                                  Never have and never will. They just talk funny :)

                                                                  1. re: c oliver

                                                                    LOL!!

                                                                    At the tender age of 18 when I was shipped off to boot camp, one of the first things another girl in my company said to me is "You're from California, aren't you?" She told me I talked funny.

                                                              2. re: lynnlato

                                                                Having lived in Richmond, VA, I really get that.
                                                                They are proud and steeped in history.

                                                                1. re: lynnlato

                                                                  But is that "Yank" or "Yankee"? If the latter, it's just residual Civil War era stuff; if the former, it's a) news to me, and b) doesn't make much sense.

                                                                  Of course, overseas, Californians, New Yorkers, Virginians, Texans, all get called "Yankees".

                                                                  I believe you'd have to put something in front of either usage for it to be offensive to most Americans. "Damned Yankee" or "f'in Yank" might get a rise out of even this born and bred Bronx gal, depending on the context and who's speaking.

                                                                  Certainly the British soldiers calling our boys "Yanks" during WWII was not in any sense pejorative on its own.

                                                                  1. re: mcsheridan

                                                                    Not only other countries overseas, but in America, there's a South vs. North mentality and the term Yankee and Damn Yankee is used pejoratively.
                                                                    I was called a Damn Yankee, and the older gentleman who said this to my face meant it!
                                                                    (meaning, I'm a northerner who moved to the South and has no plans to leave- not just visiting)

                                                                    1. re: monavano

                                                                      See my first paragraph; I get the still present North-South issue.

                                                                      1. re: mcsheridan

                                                                        I was just adding my own observation and experience. Sorry if I repeated what was said before.

                                                                      2. re: monavano

                                                                        I do recall a saying I once heard when I first moved to NC many years ago "Yankees visit, damn Yankees stay." This leans more towards what mcsheridan is saying, however, whenever I hear the term "Yankee" here in the South it's never used in a friendly or neutral kind-of-way. It's almost always derogatory.

                                                                        1. re: lynnlato

                                                                          I think generally I'd use Yankee like any other descriptor.

                                                                      3. re: mcsheridan

                                                                        "I believe you'd have to put something in front of either usage for it to be offensive to most Americans..."

                                                                        The phrase being bandied about is "pesky Yankees..." Now this is a pretty timid phrase as negative words go. It was probably intentionally chosen to indulge in the criticism but covered in a thin veneer of cuteness. However, if you read the thread, noting its length and the large number of posters who support this essential stereotype, you can only agree with lynnlato's perceptive observation, "Americans were lumped together as loud-mouthed, ignoramuses who don't know how to behave when dining out in Europe. I did, however, get a kick out of the ex pats who jumped on the Yank hate bandwagon so as to differentiate themselves from those being ridiculed."

                                                                    2. re: Servorg

                                                                      Yankee Doodle Dandy was a patriotic song, but 50 years earlier, it was someone who fought for the Union. Within the US, it is still only applied to northerners.

                                                                      AFAIK, Yankee or Yank is only an epithet in France, yeah? And those parts of the south where the Civil War is still called "The War of Northern Aggression."

                                                                      In a related note, I've heard it said that proper southern ladies refer to it as "The Late Unpleasantness." I've never heard anyone use that phrase, leading me to suspect that the Southern Ladies I know aren't all that proper. Although, to be fair, I've never heard any of them mention the Civil War at all.

                                                                      1. re: DuffyH

                                                                        You still hear the term "Yankee ingenuity" used at times when someone is talking about folks who can improvise and overcome obstacles with nothing more than the materials they happen to have on hand.

                                                                        1. re: Servorg

                                                                          Yep. That's true. But do you hear it in the South? Doubtful.

                                                                        2. re: DuffyH

                                                                          I've heard it called "The Recent Unpleasantness." :)

                                                                          I'm 67 and we talked about the Civil War a good bit. But no racial slurs were allowed in my family, allowed they were certainly prejudiced.

                                                                          1. re: c oliver

                                                                            <I'm 67 and we talked about the Civil War a good bit. >

                                                                            I'm 60, how did I miss that conversation? Outside of the classroom, no one I know ever talked about.

                                                                            The war itself was often mentioned when I lived in Fredericksburg, VA, (1990's) but only in regards to places and battles. Mostly because you can't swing a cat in Fredericksburg, VA without hitting an historical marker. Although in all fairness, a goodly number of them are from the Revolutionary War.

                                                                  1. re: linguafood

                                                                    Why Ms. Lingua, if you had a doodle I would most certainly yank it.

                                                                    ***Edit*** actually no, no I wouldn't touch your doodle or anyone else's. Sorry I'm good with my doodle.

                                                                2. re: monavano

                                                                  I'm not offended by that at all.

                                                                  People get offended way too goddamn easily these days.

                                                                  1. re: monavano

                                                                    Does this mean that the American League baseball team in New York City is using a racial slur as their mascot?

                                                                      1. re: monavano

                                                                        Somebody should write to Bud Selig about this.

                                                                        1. re: jpc8015

                                                                          I will formally protest when I go to their game.

                                                                          1. re: monavano

                                                                            According to Wikipedia (which is always totally accurate), "Yankee" is not offensive. "Yank", when used by someone from another country, especially England, is kind of a mild perjorative.

                                                                            1. re: NonnieMuss

                                                                              Too late. It's already stuck in my head. I hate the Yankees now.

                                                                              1. re: NonnieMuss

                                                                                Yes, the term wasn't use as an endearment.

                                                                                1. re: monavano

                                                                                  But the question is were the people in fact acting like "Yanks"? I'm pretty sure we are viewed as loud and obnoxious by most of the viewing world.

                                                                                  1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                    How does this mitigate using this offensive, generalizing, pejorative?

                                                                                    1. re: monavano

                                                                                      I'm stating as an American I do not find the term offensive at all. I would tend to agree with the fact that most American's are loud and obnoxious......I see it every day here in our own country. So it's easily understandable to me if people called us such. I don't find something to be offensive or generalizing if they are accurate.

                                                                                      Assuming you are American you can feel free to be offended by the term, however I am not. Sorry.

                                                                                      1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                        Why be sorry?
                                                                                        I'm not offended by your opinion in the least, and am glad you shared.
                                                                                        I might point out that an American can choose to be offended or not, but clearly, the term "Yanks" was used with a good degree of disdain for a population of over 300 million, which makes this generalization beyond silly.
                                                                                        SOME people are offensive.
                                                                                        To call an entire people a derogatory term because you've witness of handful of said people be rude is ignorant and nonsensical and bigoted.

                                                                                        1. re: monavano

                                                                                          "Sorry" because I don't want to come across as trying to start a fight with you over stating my personal opinion. Sometimes especially on topics like this, it's easy for someone to misread others true intentions.

                                                                                          I agree with the rest of your comment.

                                                                                          1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                            I'm not offended and actually like disparate opinions.
                                                                                            Clearly, there's no right or wrong, just opinions and individuality.

                                                                                        2. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                          I know a few people from the Southern US who find the term 'Yank' or 'Yankee' offensive (the type whose Grandmother was still upset until her death by Sherman's march in the Civil War - which happened 40 years before her birth)

                                                                                          1. re: hill food

                                                                                            As a Southerner I find the term "white trash" totally offensive but when I reported it several years ago I was pretty much told that since there's that cookbook, White Trash Cooking, I should just get over myself.

                                                                                            1. re: c oliver

                                                                                              c:

                                                                                              heh - (not an issue of racism, but social perception) last week some friends were visiting for a few days and we were discussing the difference between the terms 'white trash' and 'hillbilly'. I posed it as this: "just 'cause we's hillbillies, don't mean we're stoopid". white trash? ehh I've known a few, although I'd never use the term.

                                                                                              1. re: hill food

                                                                                                I think of "hillbilly" as being someone who lives in the hills of a rural area. "White trash," at least the way I was raised was the white equivalent of the N-word. Not that I think they're equal but it's the worst thing any white person could be called.

                                                                                                1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                  There is nothing approaching the equivalent of the N word.

                                                                                                  1. re: mcf

                                                                                                    Of course there is. I can think of several, mostly anti-Semitic, but not all.

                                                                                                    1. re: pikawicca

                                                                                                      I'm Jewish, and I see no equivalent. Other offensive epithets that I come down hard on, sure.

                                                                                                      I think those of us who have lived our whole lives with the privilege of white skin in the USA have no way of truly understanding the power that it so clearly has.

                                                                                                      YMMV.

                                                                                                      1. re: mcf

                                                                                                        There may not be an equivalent for Jews. I worked overseas for many years and worked with a lot of Indians, Filipinos, and Ghanans. They would call each other things that would automatically result in a fist fight leading to termination of employment and family well being. These words brought back deep cultural scars for these people.

                                                                                                        1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                          Yes, my POV was very U.S. centric. I meant in the U.S. I don't know how Australian aborigines feel about terms used for them, either, but I recall someone making me aware of one taken very badly.

                                                                                                          1. re: mcf

                                                                                                            Mcf - Australian aboriginals will often refer to themselves formally by using the tribal name i.e. the Cadigal people from around Sydney.

                                                                                                            However, informally you often here the term "black fella" - most Australians are quite literal and so the term is not really offensive - that said it tends to be used by aboriginals to refer to themselves as other Australians are nervous of the term.

                                                                                                            1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                              I was thinking of another term I believe I heard, but cannot recall it.

                                                                                                      1. re: mcf

                                                                                                        I wasn't making that point but agree with others that there are plenty of words equally offensive as "nigger."

                                                                                                        1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                          OMG! He said it (or typed it out completely anyways)! Off to sensitivity training with you!

                                                                                                          1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                            OMG, sexist assumption that c oliver is a "he"? Off to sensitivity training with you!

                                                                                                              1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                I took a course (mandatory corporate training, but anyway) that made it clear that most of us screw up routinely on what they called "micro-inequities". So don't feel too bad... tomorrow it will be me that trips up!

                                                                                                                1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                  Okay, so who is the women's equivalent of Jesse Jackson that I must now go and apologize publicly to?

                                                                                                                  1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                    c: and what have you been for the others?

                                                                                                                    1. re: hill food

                                                                                                                      I would say fuck you but that would get deleted :) My friend.

                                                                                                                      1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                        consider it said. and rightfully.

                                                                                                                2. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                  Ironically, some thought "Jew" was an epithet or potentially offensive... which is really enlightening to me.

                                                                                                                  As a Jew.

                                                                                                                  1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                    When I am called Catholic I normally don't fly off the handle. I guess that its the same type of thing.

                                                                                                                    1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                      Try saying "oriental" to an Asian person sometime, or presuming a person of Chinese descent is Japanese.

                                                                                                                      I don't completely get how these faux pas are offensive, but I still try not to offend anyone...

                                                                                                                      1. re: kaleokahu

                                                                                                                        Hi K,

                                                                                                                        I can see how mistaken identity can be offensive, especially if there's bad history between countries or ethic groups.

                                                                                                                        I've made my share of cultural blunders, and do find that most people are pretty good-natured about it. But still, we don't want to give offense, you're right.

                                                                                                                      2. re: mcf

                                                                                                                        Listen for folks who say the word "Hebrew" instead of the word "Jew." In some regions of the country, that's code for "Jew is an epithet so I'm going to use the more polite word 'Hebrew.'" In reality, accepting the fact that the actual name for a religion requires a more socially polite label is in itself racist.

                                                                                                                        1. re: Indy 67

                                                                                                                          <In reality, accepting the fact that the actual name for a religion requires a more socially polite label is in itself racist.>

                                                                                                                          That I'm wondering what the alternative is tells me I'm not getting your point. Can you explain?

                                                                                                                          1. re: DuffyH

                                                                                                                            I'll try.

                                                                                                                            If you're identifying another person by his religion you might say "He's a...
                                                                                                                            ... Catholic.
                                                                                                                            ... Presbyterian
                                                                                                                            ... Lutheran.
                                                                                                                            ... Episcopalian.
                                                                                                                            ... Buddhist.
                                                                                                                            ... Hindu.

                                                                                                                            Currently, you'll hear people saying "He's a Jew" as a neutral, factual statement. However, the word "Jew" was not always used neutrally. It was used as an adjective or verb and a pejorative one at that (e.g. "Jew down the price...").

                                                                                                                            People -- and we've seen plenty examples of this in this thread -- began avoiding the word Jew and constructing sentences that allowed them to use the adjective form, Jewish. In those cases, out of the best intentions, the word Jew was being treated differently from the names of religions, and that's what I'm objecting to.

                                                                                                                            Again, I emphasize that people began tiptoeing around the word "Jew" with the best of intentions. However, I'm making the point that when people feel they need to tip toe around a perfectly respectable, factual word they've given power to the bigots who turned it into an epithet.

                                                                                                                            Using the word Hebrew as in "He's a Hebrew" is a more extreme form tip toing around the word "Jew."

                                                                                                                            I guess my answer to your question is just use the word "Jew" in the exact same way you would use the noun form of any other religion.

                                                                                                                            Does this help?

                                                                                                                            1. re: Indy 67

                                                                                                                              Indy 67,

                                                                                                                              <Does this help?>

                                                                                                                              Yup, it does. Jewish still feels more natural to me, but perhaps I'm burdened with what may be just a grammatical device.

                                                                                                                              The phrase "People of the Jew faith" doesn't roll off the tongue. "Joe is a Jew" sounds fine, although I would more likely drop the article and say "Joe is Jewish".

                                                                                                                              Maybe it's as simple as noting that Catholic, Muslim, Lutheran are all used as both adjectives and nouns. I've never known Jew to be an adjective, only a noun.

                                                                                                                              But my RL exposure to Jew and Jewish is very limited, having only had personal relationships with a handful of Jews. I've had no broad exposure to Jewish culture. and i know diddly-squat from Hebrew.

                                                                                                                              1. re: DuffyH

                                                                                                                                "The phrase "People of the Jew faith" doesn't roll off the tongue."

                                                                                                                                I should hope not. As you've pointed out in your reply, "Jew" is the noun form and you've just written a sentence calling for an adjective. You're right in pointing out that the other religions I've listed use the identical form as a noun and adjective. I'm saying that the distinction between the two word "Jew" and "Jewish" is grammatical only. No difference in politeness or appropriateness.

                                                                                                                                Up-thread, and I don't have the energy to track down the specific post, a Jewish female wrote that she'll occasionally refer to herself as a "Jew girl." This would be seen by many fellow Jews as a somewhat slangy, aggressive phrase used when you want to communicate to your listeners, "Yeah, I'm a Jew. Going to make something of it?" That's not a phrase I would use. You've already learned my bias: Use words their correct way and take the power away from the racists.

                                                                                                                                1. re: Indy 67

                                                                                                                                  That would be me, but I stipulated that it was only used in humor as context, not as a rule.

                                                                                                                                  1. re: Indy 67

                                                                                                                                    I would not like to be referred as a "Jew Girl or woman
                                                                                                                                    and I have more than once in my 68 years used the phrase "Yeah, I am a Jew. Going to make something of it."
                                                                                                                                    Mostly in the South and when I was at Officer training school at Ft. McClellan (Anniston), Alabama in 1967

                                                                                                                                    1. re: jpr54_1

                                                                                                                                      jpr54, I've used pretty much those same words in the same way. My comment that I would not have used that phrase refers to mcf's post who used the phrase in the context of humor.

                                                                                                                                      1. re: jpr54_1

                                                                                                                                        Well, we're different. We both had close blood relations lost in the holocaust, though.

                                                                                                                                    2. re: DuffyH

                                                                                                                                      As a matter of English usage, we tend to use the adjectival form more often that the proper noun to describe an individual -- e.g., we are more likely to describe someone as "Spanish," than "a Spaniard." Indeed, we are more likely to say "he's Canadian," than "he's a Canadian." That may be why you are find "Jewish" more comfortable than "a Jew" when you are using it as an identifier.

                                                                                                                                      1. re: masha

                                                                                                                                        masha,

                                                                                                                                        Could be. And makes sense, too.

                                                                                                                                    3. re: Indy 67

                                                                                                                                      Did you read the article I linked to about this history?

                                                                                                                                      1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                        Yes, and thank you for posting it. I appreciated the historic context when the shift back to using the word "Jew" took place.

                                                                                                                                      2. re: Indy 67

                                                                                                                                        Indy, I feel like that is the more insidious type of racism.

                                                                                                                                        My mother immediately comes to mind... "I have a black neighbor, she's so sweet and such a professional! .. why can't all black people be like her?"

                                                                                                                                        I remember dating a man who was Jewish...she would tell her friends, "Chrissy's new boyfriend is so handsome... [whispering voice] you know he's a Jew... you wouldn't even know it to look at him" (I kid you not!)
                                                                                                                                        Yet... she doesn't see herself as a racist, or having any antisemitic leanings... go figure!

                                                                                                                                        1. re: cgarner

                                                                                                                                          "Yet... she doesn't see herself as a racist, or having any antisemitic leanings... go figure!"

                                                                                                                                          Sigh. I don't think I'm being too much of a Pollyana, but she also raised you and you have avoided her issues.

                                                                                                                                          1. re: Indy 67

                                                                                                                                            Not at all unusual. Lots of folks feel that hatred or animus is required to be racist, and that steretyping is merely observation.

                                                                                                                                            Like Paula Deen; she thought her feelings (lack of hostility) about black folks mattered more than their feelings about her nostalgia for the old south.

                                                                                                                                            1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                              I'm really not understanding the point you're making.

                                                                                                                                              I'm reacting to people who speak without awareness. In this thread, several posters have mentioned family members who are said to been kind, sweet souls yet who speak in hateful, stereotypical phrases. Are they unaware of the meaning of the words they use? Do they have meaningful friends among the groups they so casually disparage? Do they use their hateful speech in the presence of those friends? Do they exhibit the same lack of awareness in other areas of their lives?

                                                                                                                                              I'm just having a super hard time reconciling descriptions like "sweet" and "not a prejudiced bone in his body" with the words those same people say. Words have meaning.

                                                                                                                                              1. re: Indy 67

                                                                                                                                                You see hate where I see ignorance.

                                                                                                                                                Sometimes both are present, but not always.

                                                                                                                                        2. re: Indy 67

                                                                                                                                          I just call them all "religious," I don't really give a shit what flavor somebody is, the fact that they believe in god is the only relevant piece of information in my eyes.

                                                                                                                                      3. re: Indy 67

                                                                                                                                        Isn't Hebrew just a language?

                                                                                                                                        1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                          Precisely! The name of a langue. Not the name of a people, civilization, or religion.

                                                                                                                                          But I've heard plenty of people use it to replace Jews. I think the most common usage is '... the Hebrew people..."

                                                                                                                                      4. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                        I don't mind being called a Jew-I am also a Yid/Heb but do not want anyone to call me that .

                                                                                                                                        1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                          It depends on how it's used. I had never heard it used this way until someone said, "He Jewed me out of my money." Seriously. It took me a minute to even understand what she meant. Followed up with, "Oh, it's not an offensive term. That's just what people say."

                                                                                                                                    4. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                      MCF nothing approaches the divisive strength of the N word anyway.

                                                                                                                                      1. re: hill food

                                                                                                                                        There are other words in other parts of the world that are far more offensive.

                                                                                                                                        1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                          Quite frankly, in some places it is "American."

                                                                                                                              2. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                We've been called Ugly Americans for decades, with ample reason, sad to say. Yanks is pejorative? New one on me! If you are not already a devotee of David Sedaris's stories, I beg you to listen to this one about Americans on the Paris subway: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXfzR...

                                                                                                                            2. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                              I'm pretty certain most European countries have their fair share of loud and obnoxious citizens (the thread was mainly referencing Europe). Ok, well, except maybe Finland... I never met a loud Finn. ;)

                                                                                                                              1. re: lynnlato

                                                                                                                                lynn - yeah but has anyone ever come up with anything insulting to call Belgians?

                                                                                                                                  1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                    Hill Food - German!
                                                                                                                                    Don't call a Flemish man German... they get offended

                                                                                                                                  2. re: hill food

                                                                                                                                    French! At least that's the usual insult that Poirot had to fend off.

                                                                                                                                    1. re: paulj

                                                                                                                                      "I am not a Frenchie! I am a Belgie!"

                                                                                                                                      Oh no, that was 'Murder By Death' Sorry.

                                                                                                                                    2. re: hill food

                                                                                                                                      And after what the damn Belgians did to our Red Cross nurses!

                                                                                                                                      1. re: hill food

                                                                                                                                        Hercule Poirot didn't like being called French.

                                                                                                                                        1. re: hill food

                                                                                                                                          I'm sorry as that was a Monty Python sketch: the worst they could come up with was "Bloody Belgian Bastards"

                                                                                                                                          1. re: hill food

                                                                                                                                            Isn't being called "Belgian" enough?

                                                                                                                                            It is for my Dutch, German, and French friends.

                                                                                                                            3. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                              <Does this mean that the American League baseball team in New York City is using a racial slur as their mascot?>

                                                                                                                              Not so! Anyone can be a Yankee.... it's not racially restrictive, only geographically.

                                                                                                                            4. re: monavano

                                                                                                                              I can think of a few offensive Yanks up in the Bronx;-)

                                                                                                                              1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                this is where it all began. Written by a Yank. Definitely not pejorative.
                                                                                                                                http://history1900s.about.com/od/1910...

                                                                                                                                1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                  You can call me a Yankee, but calling me a Met is fighting words.

                                                                                                                                  1. re: sal_acid

                                                                                                                                    I have a couple iconoclasts in my NJ-based family.
                                                                                                                                    DH is a Mets fan, FiL/MiL are Jets fans.

                                                                                                                                    It's heresy ;-)

                                                                                                                                  2. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                    Monavano - genuine question - if "Yank" is considered offensive what do we call people from the USA?

                                                                                                                                    Long ago I think I was taught that American meant the peoples from the Americas so both North, Central and South i.e. an Argentinian is as American as a person from the USA. Similar for North American as that includes the Canadians. Or is it simply accepted that everyone understands these days that Americans are only from the USA?

                                                                                                                                    1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                                      I believe that Canadians identify as "Canadian,"
                                                                                                                                      Mexicans as "Mexican,"
                                                                                                                                      and citizens of the U.S. as "American."
                                                                                                                                      I've never heard a Mexican or Canadian identify as "American."

                                                                                                                                      1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                                        My impression is that the term 'American' is commonly understood to mean someone from the USA rather than someone from the Americas. It seems imprecise; some people object on principle; nevertheless, it's a commonly accepted and understood usage.

                                                                                                                                        FWIW, I don't find 'yank' offensive.

                                                                                                                                        1. re: cowboyardee

                                                                                                                                          American is a synonym for being from the USA. If you think about it anyone in Central or South America or even North American other than from the US, would give their country's name and not say they were American. That (saying they were American) would make no sense in determining where they were from.

                                                                                                                                          1. re: Servorg

                                                                                                                                            Sometimes Estado Unidense (United Statesian) is used to denote someone from the USA. If someone from South American insists on calling themselves 'Americano' it is likely that they are making a political statement, opposing a perceived hegemony of the USA (politically, economically and/or culturally). Otherwise they'll be proud to describe themselves as Ecuatoriano, Peruano, Tico, etc.

                                                                                                                                            Gringo is the other common term for someone from the USA (or Canada). If I want to be clear I will use 'from the USA' instead of 'American'.

                                                                                                                                            1. re: paulj

                                                                                                                                              Oops from the Wiki 'American' article - is 'estadounidense'.

                                                                                                                                            2. re: Servorg

                                                                                                                                              Everyone I've known from North, Central or South America has referred to us as Americans. I used to feel awkward about it but don't any more. Plus if I'm asked where I'm from I say California :)

                                                                                                                                              1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                I can't tell you the number of times someone from Europe or Asian or Central or South America would ask me American/Americano? And when I said yes then came L.A. or California (usually L.A.).

                                                                                                                                                1. re: Servorg

                                                                                                                                                  We moved from SF to So. Oregon. Almost no one outside the US seemed to have heard of Oregon. So I would followup with "north of CA."

                                                                                                                                                  1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                    Hey, c oliver?

                                                                                                                                                    In high school, geography wasn't my strong suit. Not that I didn't know, I just didn't care to know. I was all science-y and had no time for the liberal arts, y'know?

                                                                                                                                                    Annnnyway. I knew about Washington, who didn't? Congress, White House, monuments, yeah? So, armed with that knowledge, I honestly thought it went California, Oregon, Canada. Because everyone knows Washington is on the east coast, right? I mean, DUH!

                                                                                                                                                    Hey, I was a genuine SoCal Beach Chick doing my very best to perpetuate the stereotype. I think I succeeded. :-D

                                                                                                                                                2. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                  <Plus if I'm asked where I'm from I say California :)>

                                                                                                                                                  Hey! Me, too! :-D

                                                                                                                                                3. re: Servorg

                                                                                                                                                  It's far easier than saying United States of American or although US-ian would be pretty fun to say.

                                                                                                                                              2. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                                                Ah, semantics.
                                                                                                                                                "Yank" CAN be used in a derogatory fashion. This is not unheard of.
                                                                                                                                                Others can use it neutrally, or perhaps with some degree of affection, like "those Yanks who aided our country.."

                                                                                                                                                So, it is not that "Yank" IS offensive, but it CAN be.
                                                                                                                                                For example, when modified with "Pesky" and in the context of loud ones in France.

                                                                                                                                                1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                                                  Similarly, are Scots, Brits as well? ;)

                                                                                                                                                  I found this and I found it enlightening:

                                                                                                                                                  So I am; an Earthling,
                                                                                                                                                  specifically, Human,
                                                                                                                                                  specifically, European,
                                                                                                                                                  specifically, British,
                                                                                                                                                  specifically, English,
                                                                                                                                                  specifically, Northern,
                                                                                                                                                  specifically, from the North West,
                                                                                                                                                  specifically, from the Wirral,
                                                                                                                                                  specifically, from my town, my housing estate, my street, my house,
                                                                                                                                                  specifically, me.

                                                                                                                                                  1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                                                    I don't know what planet you were living on when you thought you were taught that Americans means anyone from either of the two continents but it is certainly not understood that way today in the USA or elsewhere.

                                                                                                                                                    1. re: greygarious

                                                                                                                                                      Wikipedia seems to disagree with you:

                                                                                                                                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American...

                                                                                                                                                      Note: the link isn/t working it keeps dropping the last bracket off the URL.

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                                                        Try this test. To which country does the phrase "Death to America" refer? I don't think they're trying to insult Peru.

                                                                                                                                                          1. re: pinehurst

                                                                                                                                                            One of the best words ever. ;-)

                                                                                                                                                        1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                                                          From an official Spanish source:

                                                                                                                                                          http://buscon.rae.es/dpd/?key=norteam...

                                                                                                                                                          Pero debe evitarse el empleo de americano para referirse exclusivamente a los habitantes de los Estados Unidos, uso abusivo que se explica por el hecho de que los estadounidenses utilizan a menudo el nombre abreviado América (en inglés, sin tilde) para referirse a su país. No debe olvidarse que América es el nombre de todo el continente y son americanos todos los que lo habitan.

                                                                                                                                                          "Avoid using 'americano' to refer exclusively to the inhabitants of the United States, despite the fact that they tend to refer to their own country as 'America'. We should not forget that América is the name of all the continent[sic], and all who live there are americanos." (my translation)

                                                                                                                                                          Despite that Spanish claim, in (American) English use, America is the country, North America and South America are the continents, and Americas denotes the region (continents and islands).

                                                                                                                                                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas...

                                                                                                                                                          OAS, 'Organization of American States' reflects that Spanish speaker's sensibility. Pan American is another term whose use seems to have died out.

                                                                                                                                                          1. re: paulj

                                                                                                                                                            Thanks - tried that, and added a new line - its weird. I can add it to the address line after I click the link and it gets there but just can't copy the link. Maybe because it was a link out to a word definition from a main Wikipedia page.

                                                                                                                                                            Its quite an interesting page as it addresses the question from different perspectives and includes how a person from the USA is described in a number of languages.

                                                                                                                                                            1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                                                              Phil: Wiki is not the be-all and end-all. yet...(once I tried to play a small, tiny, miniscule hoax and immediately received a 'cease and desist' order from their legal team...)
                                                                                                                                                              try this:
                                                                                                                                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American...

                                                                                                                                                              grey: really? over the last decade I've been noticing a greater awareness in the US (ehh see? I find myself saying US now, not America) and writers are paying closer attention to articulate which part of either they are referring to in their syntax.

                                                                                                                                                            2. re: paulj

                                                                                                                                                              It is *just* like us Yanks to arrogantly appropriate the label American to describe ourselves when there are a couple of continents full of people who could potentially use it.

                                                                                                                                                              1. re: tcamp

                                                                                                                                                                But you can say the same thing about 'united states'. We may have been the first country to use that phrase in our name, but we weren't the last. And 'united-states-ian' looks so ugly and contrived. The Spanish equivalent is only slightly better.

                                                                                                                                                                If it weren't for the Civil War baggage, I'd actually prefer Yankee as our demonym (learned a new word yesterday).

                                                                                                                                                                1. re: paulj

                                                                                                                                                                  paulj,

                                                                                                                                                                  Made me go look it up, and thanks for that. New words are good. :-)

                                                                                                                                                                  Here's a thought - Do any other countries within the Americas have the word America in the country's name? I can't think of any.

                                                                                                                                                                  Annnnd, if we were the first to co-opt "America" within the name of our country, it doesn't seem quite so arrogant to use the word as our demonym.

                                                                                                                                                                  There. Used it in a sentence. Let me note that Mac spellcheck hates it and really wants to change it to demonic. I had to fight for it!

                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: DuffyH

                                                                                                                                                                    And does anyone here really think if you asked someone from Brazil or Argentina or Paraguay or Guatemala or Nicaragua if they were an American, that they wouldn't give you a really weird look and then tell you their country of birth?

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: Servorg

                                                                                                                                                                      Actually, many Brazilians get kind of irked about the subject. They recognize that when most people say American, they mean USA-ian, but they really don't like it. They feel that they are Americans, as well.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: Jacquilynne

                                                                                                                                                                        But if you asked them if the were an American would they say they were? I've always found the Brazilians I've met to be very proud to say they were from Brazil.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: Servorg

                                                                                                                                                                          They're capable of discerning if the person asking them means 'Are you a citizen of the United States of America?' when they ask, so if that was the context of the question, no, of course they wouldn't.

                                                                                                                                                                          But if you were having a discussion about geopolitics, they might well lay claim to being American in the sense of 'from the Americas'.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: Jacquilynne

                                                                                                                                                                            I've not had that experience. They refer to us as "Americanos."

                                                                                                                                                                        2. re: Jacquilynne

                                                                                                                                                                          I believe "Brazilian" means something else entirely...Still south of the border tho

                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: BiscuitBoy

                                                                                                                                                                            Not sure what you're alluding to.

                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: BiscuitBoy

                                                                                                                                                                                  Oh, please. I'm guessing you don't spend time in Brazil or that would be the LAST connection you'd make.

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                                                    I haven't, my family has...Have YOU? From the pictures I've seen it's a BIG connection, 'specially round Carnivale

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: BiscuitBoy

                                                                                                                                                                                      We go to Rio at least once a year. I'm betting 95% of the population doesn't get them. My point was that I couldn't fathom that being the first connotation for you or anyone else.

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                                                        Funny the twists and turns a thread takes on

                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: Servorg

                                                                                                                                                                            It could depend on context. If it is clearly about country of birth, they won't use 'American'. But in some sort of socio/political discussion (in Spanish or Portuguese) they might insist 'somos Americanos tambien'.

                                                                                                                                                                  2. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                                                                    Phil, is this the URL you were trying to link to? In any case I think the first part of this article (especially the 3rd paragraph) is pretty "spot on" as far as delineating the way the word "America" and "American" is generally used and meant. The word "Americas" is another beast entirely.

                                                                                                                                                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American...

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: Servorg

                                                                                                                                                                      It is and I agree - I posted the link to defend myself from the insult from greygarious who suggested I was on another planet and that everyone knew what an "American" is.

                                                                                                                                                                      It's clear from some of the well travelled commentators that there are grounds for the question.....but there is no real answer other than American.

                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                                                                      Put the link into bit.ly and see fi you get a usable shortcut.

                                                                                                                                                                    3. re: greygarious

                                                                                                                                                                      I spend part of each year in Guatemala and have friends there who would give you an earful regarding those of us from the US who say we are Americans, claiming that they are Americans as well. Others could care less. As paulj points out, the Spanish have a word that means someone from the United States: "estadounidense." Perhaps we should lobby for United Statesian? I just try to avoid using the word "American" to refer to myself when I'm there. Although not a lot of those I know are offended by it, I choose not to take the chance that anyone will be.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: JoanN

                                                                                                                                                                        Interesting. I can't remember when we were in Guatemala but other Central and South American 'folks' always call us Americans. Oh, yeah, and Canadians. And Europeans :) I also was squeamish and still don't describe myself that way but I'm now fine with others saying it.

                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: greygarious

                                                                                                                                                                        "taught that Americans means anyone from either of the two continents"

                                                                                                                                                                        I was born and educated in the US. Beginning in college in the 1980s, I was introduced to the notion that it was chauvinistic to use the term "American" to only the citizens of the USA. I continued to hear this idea as my education advanced to higher institutions. I am still quite conscious of how I use the word in various contexts.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: MGZ

                                                                                                                                                                          Please tell me MGZ as I can't start my day without knowing, just what the hell are we ? :-)

                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: Tom34

                                                                                                                                                                              Maybe we have to change the name to the United States of Vespuccia. Or, broad-elbowed louts that we are (VBG), tell the continents that they are now North and South Vespuccia and only the space between Canada and Mexico is America! ;-)

                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: greygarious

                                                                                                                                                                                Works for me. Because I am so not copping to "Yankee". I'm from California!!

                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: greygarious

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm good with being a Vespuccian.

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: tcamp

                                                                                                                                                                                    Love those Italian scooters...they are so much fun and get great mileage too! (g)

                                                                                                                                                                      3. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                                        I agree that by and large religion is an inappropriate subject for CH. There are some outliers, food prohibitions as you mentioned, Lenten meals, menu planning for the Feast of Saint so and so...

                                                                                                                                                                        But every now and then you will see someone say something completely unprovoked about Christians being dumb. Inevitably you then see some Christians defending their faith. Why is it that the original post stays up when the people defending their faith get deleted?

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                                                          I'm far, far from perfect but am more and more flagging rather than responding. I recommend it.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                                            I wish there was an button to downvote a post rather than flag it.

                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: EatFoodGetMoney

                                                                                                                                                                                You may not like the mods decision but at least it's being looked at by someone who can change things.

                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                                                I responded and flagged it. My post got deleted. The original stayed up in all of its Christian hating glory.

                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                                                                  jpc8015:

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm guessing the initial remark of crassness (of whatever category) was an idiot blanket action, whereas the response was a personally directed reaction.

                                                                                                                                                                        2. Just a reminder that we ask that people not post specific posts or posters as examples in these Site Talk discussions.

                                                                                                                                                                          cgarner, we've sent you a couple of offline emails that we hope will help clarify the specifics of your situation for you.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. I think people who call other people racists are often in the wrong. I also think that the rule against making personal attacks on others is a good one. Argument should be directed at the topic of discussion, not the person.

                                                                                                                                                                            3 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: GH1618

                                                                                                                                                                              I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, often times hard numbers don't support a persons leanings and in some cases they feel the need to pull out the race/gender paint brush in an attempt to discredit the author rather than discuss the numbers, their meanings and possible solutions to problems.

                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: Tom34

                                                                                                                                                                                The fact that what you're saying applies equally to the discussions on these Boards and to the greater society at large is very important. Poor reasoning and argument skills have become the norm in most of the public discussions we hear. It's not surprising that it carries over into the way we interact with others.

                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: Tom34

                                                                                                                                                                                  We're not here to discuss the alleged "numbers" or their meanings and solutions. Nor to read derisive characterizations of large swaths of our economically disadvantaged in the U.S.

                                                                                                                                                                              2. I quit posting here regularly after being censored for *objecting* to a slur.

                                                                                                                                                                                1. I would almost prefer that racist remarks were not prohibited.

                                                                                                                                                                                  This way, at least, I'd know the poster's real quiddity.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Racism is ugly. It becomes problematic when it's hidden, swept away, treated as if it'll go away if ignored long enough.

                                                                                                                                                                                  As they say, nothing sanitizes like the light of day.

                                                                                                                                                                                  But, alas, this is not my site and not my rules to make, much less enforce.

                                                                                                                                                                                  20 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: ipsedixit

                                                                                                                                                                                    This past week has been eye-opening. Some of the ugliness has revealed itself despite its attempts to hide in code.

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: ipsedixit

                                                                                                                                                                                      If racists remarks are allowed (hypothetically), then others should be allowed to call that racist...a racist.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Alas, we're not, so I can't see letting a racist comment standing here on the record for posterity, without calling it out, on the record.
                                                                                                                                                                                      It's a conundrum.

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                        I think what constitutes a racist comment needs to be defined. Example: Long term data supports a position that a disproportionate number of serial killers and child molesters are white males. Both race & gender are issues here but its not a racist statement nor is it gender bias. Its the outcome of analyzing data.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Research is necessary to study behavior. Data is necessary to perform research. Problem solving requires both. Ignoring data will result in a flawed remedy.

                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: Tom34

                                                                                                                                                                                          Of course, data is data and is provable fact.
                                                                                                                                                                                          I don't see how this can be seen as racist opinion when facts support it.
                                                                                                                                                                                          What is wrong is painting certain legions of people with a broad brush.
                                                                                                                                                                                          It's the opposite of data/information-based fact.

                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                            Certain identifiers are commonly used when collecting / sorting & analyzing data and the findings are grouped accordingly. No better example of this than the FBI's Uniform Crime Report & Victimization Studies. When combined they are extremely accurate and yes they do break stats down by race, gender, age, time of day, transient (vs) non-transient, type of weapon, $$ loss, etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                            I am not sure what "Legions of people" mean but the Federal Bureau Of Investigation has been using this breakdown for as long as I can remember. I can see citing their numbers as being "Not politically correct" but in no way racist, gender bias, age discriminatory etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: Tom34

                                                                                                                                                                                              Legions of people? An entire race, an entire country etc, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                              Broad.
                                                                                                                                                                                              Generalizations.

                                                                                                                                                                                              I don't know why you seem to be nitpicking with an opinion that echos your own.

                                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: Tom34

                                                                                                                                                                                            It doesn't need to be defined - it has been. Your examples are fine because they do not tie, implicitly or explicitly, animosity or superiority to generalization. Whereas, statements like "most white men are serial killers" or "deep down inside, all white men want to molest children" are not.

                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: MGZ

                                                                                                                                                                                              Many moons ago I studied the difference in college and I thought I was on sound ethical ground but thank you for clarifying the matter in a very simple easy to understand manner. Hopefully people who practice quick draw with labeling people a racist with read it.

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: MGZ

                                                                                                                                                                                                Right, there's a big difference between "white men are serial killers", and "serial killers tend to be white men/some white men are serial killers".

                                                                                                                                                                                                Some don't know or don't want to make the distinction.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Sometimes, I wish I could draw a Venn diagram!

                                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: Tom34

                                                                                                                                                                                                Right, because white males aren't disadvantaged in our society.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                                                                      That must be why white males (including chefs) make less than women or people of color. Are also over-represented in Congress, and are over-whelmingly in the majority of CEO's/CFO's of big corporations. You poor boys.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I like to think (perhaps misguidedly) that if women had more of a voice, our food supply would be purer, with less processed crap on sale in our stores, and certainly less crap served up via the school lunch program.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Certainly the women I know are passionate about these issues. Men? Not so much.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: pikawicca

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ya, that is probably misguided, your evidence appears to be solely anecdotal.
                                                                                                                                                                                                        In my experience caring about food has nothing to do with gender. I know more women who cook, but the men I know cook with better ingredients and seem to be more knowledgeable. I would absolutely not extrapolate my anecdotal evidence though. My experiences are very likely not representative of the population as a whole.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: pikawicca

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm a woman. I think we may not be understanding one another here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I was responding to this: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/9784...

                                                                                                                                                                                                          With my lack of concern for white men getting some sort of bias problem from statistics. They have a double privilege.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                                                                            My apologies, mcf. This thread has obviously gotten too convoluted for me to keep track.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: pikawicca

                                                                                                                                                                                                              No sweat. I think I got confused by your query about tongue in cheek, too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The problem is that what you call "racist" isn't necessarily so.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                    While I obviously don't agree w/ racism, it's not a directed slur at one poster and calling someone racist is. It's one thing to argue against the point, another to name call. Call out a racist point of view and explain why but don't call the person the name. It's a fine line but worthwhile.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  2. re: ipsedixit

                                                                                                                                                                                                    "quiddity" -- I had to look that one up (otherwise I might have thought it was a slur...)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  3. I think this is a tough, though valid, inquiry and I respect the Mods for leaving it up. Without airing the discussion, there would be no adequate way for any of us to gain insight into a process that requires subjectivity in application. Moreover, there have been a lot of interesting points made from different perspectives.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Passion is a respectable quality, but societally, on both the micro and macro level, we need to find a way to focus it in discourse. Ignorance drives me insane, but over the years and through misguided attempts, I've begun to get a better sense of the acceptable ways that rebutting it will be permitted. Responding to a stereotype with a stereotype generally will not fly. And, as GH points out, ad hominem responses don't help the temper of the thread (or make valid, logical points) and are the basis for the general prohibition against attacking another 'hound. I wonder if a simple statement of objection to the challenged remark is viable? e.g., a simple, "I find the language of your post to be offensive and racist."

                                                                                                                                                                                                    In all of this, it seems, context counts. Applying rules of moderation, like any set of rules, requires human judgment and, sometimes, the call is going to go against you. It's important to try to figure out how not to repeat our mistakes too often and learn from them when we do.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    184 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: MGZ

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well said.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I give the Mods props for keeping this thread open.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      It's been refreshingly civil, thus far.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: MGZ

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I recall a recent post that used the term "retarded" to describe something they thought was stupid. At least two replies asked politely that they not use that term in that way. They got a lot of "recommends" for that, and it may be the best way to handle it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'd have flagged it though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: NonnieMuss

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Except as I recall the poster continued to use the word anyway, and felt it was appropriate.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: coll

                                                                                                                                                                                                            I think it's a shift socially with that word. It has probably always been offensive to the metally handicapped (and their friends/family), but it's only recently that they've had the chance to give a voice to it. Same as using the word "midget" to refer to a little person. Words for other races that were acceptable generations ago are no longer. People will complain about the PC police, but why continue to use a word when you know it hurts peoples' feelings?

                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: NonnieMuss

                                                                                                                                                                                                              I think there's a difference between calling someone retarded or a retard, than saying that they are a man or woman with mental retardation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                              I know retardation is not a pc term, or appropriate now, but just using it as an example.
                                                                                                                                                                                                              In healthcare, I (and many) try not to do this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patients are not diagnosis, they are people with diagnosis.
                                                                                                                                                                                                              I don't call the patient in room 103 the amputee or stroke, I call them the man or woman with amputation or post stroke.
                                                                                                                                                                                                              It's all about keeping the "person" discrete from their impairments, dysfunctions and in the case here on CH, their views, whether I agree with them or not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                                We just had to watch a video at work about being sensitive to those with handicaps and they emphasized "person first language" like you mention. Instead of saying "the blind guy", we should say "the guy who is blind". Personally, I don't see much of a difference, but if those I'm referring to prefer a certain wording, I'm happy to comply.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: Hobbert

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think it's intensified in a hospital or clinical setting, where a patient can feel depersonalized with so many interactions each day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It's very important in that setting, and clinicians can forget in the course of their busy days.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Treat people, not diagnosis!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It's nice to continue the notion in the work and social setting.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Hobbert

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Oh I'm going to schedule a meeting at my office too. Instead off calling my employees idiots I should be saying "those people who are idiots" I see!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: Hobbert

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      That's just moronic. I'm sure whoever produced the movie gets big bucks from HR to have it shown.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: sal_acid

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I've yet to met a single person in HR I liked more than the dirt on the bottom of my shoe. They are completely useless.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: EatFoodGetMoney

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              OMG, he hated Toby Flenderson with the heat of 1000 suns.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It was a really funny (in a cringing way) recurring plot point in The Office.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Oh now I recall. I haven't watched a ton of The Office but I remember a few episodes with Toby.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: EatFoodGetMoney

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            but EFGM, the HR crew just wants to be your friend. you can call them anytime with any problem and they'll just slip that into your file for you in case you forget.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            sheesh at one office they canned her maybe 2 weeks before me and even as I was helping her load her car she was STILL trying to wheedle details of my personal life out of me. the bad ones are vampires, the good ones just make sure your paperwork and such are in order.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: hill food

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <the bad ones are vampires, the good ones just make sure your paperwork and such are in order.>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Well, talk about your broad brush. HR has a thankless job. In many workplaces, HR is where people go with any number of different complaints, all of which HR handles. Paycheck off? HR does the inquiry. Etc...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              And the "good ones" will do so much more than process your paperwork. They'll be there when family crises hit to make sure you're aware of state/federal laws that can help you get the time off you might need. They'll even help direct you to resources that are often outside what the company offers. I've seen it more than once for my co-workers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              And really, they deserve our respect because when a harassment complaint is filed, they get stuck handling it. That can't be a day at the beach for anyone.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Now your experience may be different, but that broad brush is very much in keeping with the topic at hand.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: DuffyH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                point taken. I have had bad experiences in the offices who have formal departments and good ones in those who are just as diligent but more honestly personal in their approach.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yet in one of the more organized ones, things were so mishandled and the sexual and racial discrimination lawsuits were piling up so fast the whole office was packed off to an afternoon of sensitivity training. millions were paid, nobody was fired, people were transferred to other units.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: hill food

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've heard of nightmares like that. I think I was pretty lucky in most of my workplaces. The norm for me was great support staff, no matter the office size.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: DuffyH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    one of the weird ones we used to have fun with yanking her chain, we knew our e-mail was being actively monitored but didn't know how often, so a woman in my department started sending a question to another coworker asking in the vaguest of terms "can you believe he said/did that to me? do you think I have grounds for a suit?"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that was a good morning when HR came barreling into the room for a heart-to-heart!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sad in any situation when the unfortunate exception is held up as the normal.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: sal_acid

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yeah, nobody produced a "movie"- it was a videotaped training session. HR (presumably) paid a speaker a one time fee and uploaded the video for everyone else to see. She had a lot more to say. I just mentioned one small thing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: NonnieMuss

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Fairly recent, too. I have been streaming Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a TV series that ran from around 1997-2003 (not bothering to double-check that; close enough for my point). It's used frequently to mean that an idea is stupid.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If memory serves, when it became seen as non-PC, it was replaced for a few years by "developmentally delayed", which I rarely hear these days and always found ridiculous. It implies that given time and opportunity, they will "catch up" with the abilities of the average person. The individuals classified as DD have no potential to do that. In the touching film, "House of D", Robin Williams plays such a person, a janitor who befriended the boy who is the main character of the film.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As an adult, he encounters the janitor again. Williams tells him: "I'm not retarded anymore. I went from retard to challenged. Who knows what I'll be next?"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: NonnieMuss

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          NonnieMuss - I believe the word "Handicapped" is now considered offensive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          People with a disability don't like to think their disability necessarily "handicaps" them. And as we all know there are many people who overcome their disabilities to live a full and wonderful life - they are far from having a handicap that holds them back.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmA-W...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            @0:40

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Handicapped has been offensive at least since 1998, according to this evidence.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Well now see I didn't realize that, and I apologize if anyone found it offensive. The internet is unclear about what term is considered PC now, but I would sure like to know if anyone has that info. But referring to the discussion about context, I hope everyone realized I didn't mean it in a derogatory way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: coll

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, the poster did and it was repeatedly inappropriate especially after someone asked for the word to not be used.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: fldhkybnva

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              (Not condoning the use of the term, just trying to engage in a conversation about dialog in general. No offense meant to anyone)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If I'm to understand this properly a poster was using the term retarded, to describe a scenario or scene as in "the steak special was retarded when paired with salmon" -or- was it directed at a person "the hostess told us 5 minute wait, after 20mins I asked her; are you retarded?".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              In either case if there weren't any person(s) with disabilities involved in the conversation, who was offended?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I think the former may be a touch too sensitive, and the latter understandably offensive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I think the latter invokes actual "retarded" people, although the object was not "retarded".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Now I need a drink... too early??????

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  mona and jr - "the steak special was retarded when paired with salmon"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I feel that with some words and in some contexts a distinction can be made. a situation can be retarded (literally slowed or misguided) a material can be applied with a flame retardant.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I learned this analogy when I moved from the MW with very few neighbors of Asian descent to California, very many.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  a co-worker saved me much embarrassment by explaining "furniture is Oriental, people are Asian"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: hill food

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    hill food,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <"furniture is Oriental, people are Asian">

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I used almost the same phrase with my Dad once. He asked "Since when??"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I know why he was confused, because in the 60's in California, Oriental meant people, too. Elephants could be Asian, though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    There have been so many changes in cultural descriptors in the last 30-40 years that it can be difficult to keep up.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: DuffyH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yeah, but I always thought it was such a simple, clear and elegant way to describe the distinction.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I think EB White (were he around) would have approved.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  So if someone were to use the n***a word but a black person was not around, that's OK?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: fldhkybnva

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    See my original disclosure for this response as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The "n" word is a hot potato but I would be willing to say this. If two white people are having a conversation and one says to the other " you been my "n" from day one " who is the term harming? (Again not condoning, I'm asking a question which I would appreciate being answered rather than responded to by another question)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It's not harming anyone but the fact that they would use it is problematic. It's perpetuating the use of a word that shouldn't be used even in closed company. We will likely continue to disagree on this. I find it mind-boggling that it would be OK to say racial slurs among friends just because no one is around that might be offended, do you think it's OK to throw around slurs about Jews too?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: fldhkybnva

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        First I clearly stated that I do not condone the use of these terms, so there is no point in continuing to ask me "how about this one". I'm simply playing devils advocate for the sake of conversation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        While I don't think it wise or appropriate to use many/any/all these terms, I'm not foolish enough to think that by simply not using them they will go away.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Language and words evolve and change over time, several derogatory terms of years gone by are used commonly today, common words of yesterday are taboo today. That's the way the world turns.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There are certainly two lines of thought; one would be not using any of these terms to avoid any potential ruffled feathers. The other is, perhaps by using them in everyday language perhaps they lose their "sting". Again in the example of two white people using the "n" word I used, it's actually being used as a term of endearment, "you my n" is a phrase used to describe a close friendship. It's hard for me to find fault with that kind of sentiment regardless of the word(s) being used.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: fldhkybnva

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      When one black person calls another black person, "my n****r," should you get offended? You can if you want but the parties involved aren't offended. I personally wouldn't get offended simply because a word is used, but would get offended if a word is used inappropriately.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: Worldwide Diner

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There are plenty of black people who are offended by the fact that black people call each other that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: fldhkybnva

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          But if all black, white, yellow, red, blue and green people STOPPED, getting offended by it, who would continue to use it in a derogatory manner?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          A word only has as much power as the recipient of the word allows it to have. So if people stopped reacting to the word, it would just go away. (Or it's impact would)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'll get right on telling millions of black people to not be offended by the n word.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: fldhkybnva

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hahahaha ok report back to me in a month!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: fldhkybnva

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                They can be offended and you can be offended. The question is whether you want to censor the use of the n-word altogether. Some people believe the n-word or "retard" should just be abolished - I just don't understand what makes those people think they have the right to dictate what words I'd like to use. To me this is political correctness tyranny.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: Worldwide Diner

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't think words should be abolished and that's not my argument.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: fldhkybnva

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Discussion, nobody is arguing here!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Of if people stopped using those words, the 'other' people wouldn't have to stop reacting :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I've said this repeatedly. I grew up in the South in the 50s and 60s and learned quickly and firmly that words matter and words hurt.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm sorry C but I do have to disagree with you. Words don't hurt, they don't......they only impact the recipient to the extent the recipient allows. Most people do allow words to hurt, I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But I am telling you it doesn't have to be that way, I can assure you there is NOTHING you or anyone could say to me that would "hurt" me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    You're forgetting about the classic example of "words hurting" someone Jr. That freedom of speech does not give anyone the right to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater just to see what the effect will be...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: Servorg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      in most states yelling fire in a theater is viewed as risking wide spread catastrophe and is a criminal offense similar in nature to tampering with a traffic control device.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Same here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Somebody could make a thread called "eat food get money is a fucking scumbag and should be burned to death"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and I'd just laugh my ass off without even flagging it. I just don't really care what other people say, it has no effect on me whatsoever.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Gotta realize that most people aren't like us though jrvedivici, you already know that though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: EatFoodGetMoney

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Just a FYI, I tried to start that thread, they took it down.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm the father of 2 teenage children an 18 year old girl and a 16 year old boy. Ain't nothing any of you can call me that they haven't!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Typical...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          My father would say the same thing about me and my siblings haha.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "But I am telling you it doesn't have to be that way, I can assure you there is NOTHING you or anyone could say to me that would "hurt" me."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Fundamentally, I agree with you. Words are, after all, abstractions. As Lenny Bruce suggested a quarter century ago, we can desensitize to them and thereby deflate their power over people. I am an advocate of having all words available for me to use.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The problem is that words can also be used to categorize and generalize. Once that's done, it's easy to dehumanize. It's the last that brings the problems. Being called "Jew" in Europe in 1920 was different than it was in 1940, after all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: MGZ

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I am still not sure about the term "Jew". I try to use "Jewish". If I am wrong please correct me as there are times when Jew or Jew's would be a better fit but those terms just stick in my head as forever being associated with some of histories most evil people who perpetrated unimaginable atrocities, and it really wasn't all that long ago.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: Tom34

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            We were in Israel a few months ago and the Jews called themselves Jews. I realized it was no different than calling someone a Catholic, a Muslim, etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              That's good to know. I assume its the same here in the states.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: Tom34

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I've grown up with Jewish friends....I have worked for Jewish business owners.....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                All have always identified themselves as Jews, not Jewish in any conversations about themselves or others.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: fourunder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Oh, I use Jewish much more than Jew. I'm prolly more likely to use Jew for comic effect in conversation, like calling myself a "Jew girl." Or someone else a "Jew bastard."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: pinehurst

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I thought it was pretty good also. The word is being rehabilitated :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, since this is a food-related discussion board, I couldn't help being struck by this sentence in that article:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "My friend is very well-educated and WASPy --- if he goes more than 72 hours without mayonnaise he needs to have it injected intravenously.:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      LOL. :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: drongo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I never understood the joke: "why do WASPS go to the hospital?" (for the food) until I ate lunch with a WASP client who ordered, no shit, American cheese on white with mayo and a glass of milk.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    But is it acceptable for non-Jews to call Jewish people Jews? See, here we go again... ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: lynnlato

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Is it acceptable for a non-Catholic to call a Catholic Catholic? No difference that I can think of. What would make one okay and the other not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Only I can call people Catholics. The rest of you just wouldn't understand. It's a Catholic thing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: GH1618

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Please give me a context where it wouldn't be okay to call a Jew a Jew? And no derogatory adjectives allowed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: fourunder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I will freely admit that this made me laugh.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: fourunder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nah, we're too afraid they'll spit in our food.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      We're more germ phobic than cheap in my cohort. Another Jewish trait.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There's good and bad in all persuasions...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Huh? So a Jew shouldn't call a Jew a Jew?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          No, I meant you can call a Jew a Jew no matter who you are, just try not to sound like Colonel Klink. ;-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I know NOTH ING. I see NOTH ING.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ooh, is that APPLE STRRRREUUUUUUDEL???

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: pinehurst

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                With a subordinate like Sergeant Schultz it's no wonder that Col. Klink had to buy Maalox by the case.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Whenever a person's Jewishness is not essential to the substance of the debate, but is mentioned only for the purpose of casting aspersion. For example, a statement by Julian Assange, as reported by New Statesman:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "In an article entitled "A Curious Conversation with Mr. Assange", Private Eye reports that Assange claimed the magazine was involved in a conspiracy with a group of Guardian journalists, all of whom "were Jewish"."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: GH1618

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              He's just pissed because we control all the media, dontcha know?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yes, unless you're a Methodist, we don't take any shit from them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            There is a Methodist to their madness though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: Servorg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Kudos! I think you channelled your inner Veggo on that one!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        4. re: lynnlato

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          How on earth did you get the idea that "Jew" was an epithet? Only time it ever sounds that way is when certain people spit it out. Often preceded by "dirty."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My post above was intended rhetorically.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: Tom34

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        No difference except grammatical.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jew is a noun.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jewish is an adjective.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Now, using the word "Hebrew" either as a noun or as an adjective to precede anything other than the word "language" actually belies a POV that says the word "Jew" really is an offensive word. Such an individual would have grown up in an environment where that was a reality and swallowed the Kool-Aide.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: Indy 67

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I consider myself JewISH, capital ISH because I care about food and cleanliness and cook for legions any time I cook for group, but I am not affiliated in a religious sense, only an ethnic one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Same (except for cleanliness part) and ITA. Identifying as a Jew gives me heartburn because it feels somehow like a religious statement which doesn't apply. Except in the context of a group of neighbors who self identify as 'jews married to catholics.'

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: tcamp

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              That would be me, too. Lapsed Jew, married to lapsed Irish Catholic.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I find the body of this discussion very interesting. And I've had many discussions with Jewish friends who believe that being Jewish is an ethnicity/cultural identifier while other insist that it is not, it is strictly a religion. Its all very grey to me. Like most, I want to be sensitive to everyone.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Side note: I am duly impressed with how civil and rational this thread has remained. It gives me hope for humanity. :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. re: MGZ

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          While that is a rather extreme example I'm personally torn as to how hurtful that could be.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          A Jew is a Jew, it is factually who they are. I'm not saying calling someone who is Jewish "hey Jew" is respectful, but is it honestly hurtful? Again, I don't think so, but I'm not Jewish so I can't judge fairly.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Again, I'm not calling anyone a "Jew" I'm expanding on MGZ's post. If you are Jewish please share your feelings. No offense meant to any of my/our Jewish friends here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            You can judge fairly---
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            So you're on a first date with a lovely woman by the name of Susan Lewis (making up a name) and as the evening ends, you ask her out the following weekend. She says "Oh I can't, it's my cousin from Philly's bar mitzvah"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            What would get you a second date more quickly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a) Oh, is your family Jewish, Susan?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            b) Or.. Oh, are your family members Jews, Susan?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Also, a nice dessert and assurances that her weight need not be watched would also work for a second date, but then I'm only 1/4 Jewish.:-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: pinehurst

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I said it's certainly not respectful to call someone who is Jewish "A Jew", I completely understand that. My question is it "hurtful"? In your example I could see Susan thinking to herself in example b.) "This guy is an ass I want nothing to do with him" but I cannot see her thinking "oh my God, he called us Jews, I'm so hurt and betrayed by those words".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Again if I'm wrong I apologize.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I don't think there's a gauge to measure hurtfulness. Depends very much on the person's experience, upbringing, family history, etc. In the case of Jews/Jewish, why risk bad feelings? If you might even potentially cause discomfort, just say Jewish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              There are any number of neutral Proper nouns that describes subsets of humanity -- Jew, Catholic, Southerner, Mexican, etc. -- that are not slurs. Of course in context they can be used in ways that are derogatory and involve hateful stereotyping. The same is true of slang terms of a similar ilk, like Yankee or Yanks, Aussie, Brit, Gay.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: masha

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I again agree completely. But the conversation started up stream where we are talking about if words hurt, I fail to see a Jewish person being "hurt" by the term Jew. Insulted, disrespected all different things than being hurt.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: masha

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't know many Australians who object to being called Aussies. On the other hand, calling an Australian a drongo (my chowhound moniker) could be a problem.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  And calling someone an Australian when actually they're from New Zealand can be a problem: "'Don't call me an Australian': woman guilty of racism over verbal attack on Kiwi neighbour" http://www.smh.com.au/world/dont-call...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: drongo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Perhaps the last sentence of my comment was unclear. My point was that slang terms like "Yankee," "Aussie," etc. are not offensive, just like the more formal proper nouns listed in my first sentence.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've wondered the same about calling someone "Black" instead of "African-American"? What if they're black and from England or Canada? I've also never been 100% sure about "hispanic" vs. "latino". I asked a guy at work whose wife is from Mexico and he didn't know either.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: NonnieMuss

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Well I don't think most other societies have the hang ups we do over categorizing people. I think because of our history we have adapted a hyper sensitivity towards categorizing people.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  2. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "While that is a rather extreme example I'm personally torn as to how hurtful that could be."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    (I slid down the dinosaur early yesterday, so I'm just seeing all this now.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I wasn't trying to comment on the contemporary use of any word in particular.* Instead, my point was that although words, in and of themselves, are mere abstractions, they can also be employed as tools. In a very short period of time, a single word went from having its "true" meaning, to a mild perforative, to hate-filled invective, to a such formulation of dehumanization that it became, simultaneously, both a crime and a sentence.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Now, it is true that four symbols placed in a particular order are innately harmless. Nevertheless, whether spoken, written, or sewn to a lapel, the word did become an instrument of harm. Clearly, it takes the efforts of humans to wield words in this way, for, after all, words are a human invention, but humans have displayed great commitment to using their invention to benefit themselves however possible.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Desensitizing is a laudable goal and one I am in favor of; however, "we" will always find another invention, another word, if we conclude that it can grant us advantage towards our goals. The use of the otherwise innocuous term "boy" when directed at an adult male is one such example - particularly if he is black.** Consequently, unless we can trust the use of words to only the few who are certain to use them properly, I am also in favor of some vigilance on the part of the listener. I think only in that way can we prevent bestowing excessive power through such manipulations.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    In the end, and directly on point to the instant issue, I am inclined to want to find a permissible way to "call a spade a spade", but I am willing to settle for simply calling "a fig a fig" or "a trough a trough".***

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    * In fact, I should have used the word "Jude". Excessive brevity and haste on my part at the time led to a lack of clarity - for which I apologize.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ** Anecdotally, I remember one time, early in my practice, when my opposing counsel, a much more senior fellow then myself, would pepper his remarks with things like "Now the lad tells you . . . ." There was a reason for that coming out of a grey-haired man.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    *** See, e.g., http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: MGZ

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      MGZ,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I not only agree with what you've posted here on the use of words, but the way you posted. Footnotes are sweet! :-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: DuffyH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I should've been that precise yesterday - might have saved CBS some bandwidth. Guess I should no better than to leave work early . . . .

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            3. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Excellent point jrvedivici, and this is precisely why many black people embraced that word - to take away its power.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm not saying its right or its wrong, it just is.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                jrv - "A word only has as much power as..."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                well sure in theory.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: hill food

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  hill, for me that's the point. Let the "sinner" repent. Go forth and sin no more :) I don't think the onus should be on the offended one to change.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yeah, as it still takes guts to hold one's head high and reply "that's MR. Fill-in-the-Blank to you."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <I don't think the onus should be on the offended one to change.>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I agree. So much!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      We've all had hateful words directed our way, and likely always will. I try to shrug most of them off. I find that accusing the hater of lack of imagination works for me. "That's the best you've got? Seriously? My 8 year old grandson can do better."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      But there are times when what is said is really nasty and all I can do is stand there, mute. And I'm a 60-year-old white woman in the USA. Raised in white middle-class SoCal. Got a college degree, even. I've had it pretty easy. I can't imagine how people who have put up with a lifetime of hatred get along.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      So yeah, it's on the speaker to change.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: DuffyH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You described it perfectly, Duffy. Because I've had it so easy, I feel obliged to speak out for others who may not have a voice that's listened to as much.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: DuffyH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I've experienced more hate here in my few years on this site...than in my 55 years in real life.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: fourunder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Wow. I'm so surprised to know this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I've mentioned a few to you before...but they gang up on others for having a different view than themselves which is laughable. They make up things and put words in your mouth to try and paint you as a bad person. The cliques here using the recommend button are like the silent mafia with no spine....even on the home cooking board has soup nazi behavior...as if they are the only ones who know how to cook,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: fourunder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I was going to hit Recommend, but now I'm afraid to.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: fourunder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              That surprises the hell out of me. I think I've spent entirely too much time in the Cookware Forum and need to get around more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Not that things don't get lively over there. But the insults are pretty mild.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: DuffyH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                periodically, there will always be some posters who pounce on every thing you say and twist what you mean. The most recent example is the thread about Government Food Stamps.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: fourunder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yes, i was there. But the insults were pretty few, I thought.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Compared to what I've encountered in the RW? They barely register. The moderators keep us mostly in line, yeah?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, there was one post. I responded in anger, then immediately flagged my post and asked the mods to delete it and the one that was so hateful. They did. :-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2. re: DuffyH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Try having an opinion on the Manhattan Board....specifically on Chinatown or Dim Sum if you want to see some insults fly

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: fourunder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Well, you know how those "Damn Yankees" are :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      They don't like Bob Fosse? In Manhattan? Buncha musical theater snobs!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: DuffyH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "That's the best you've got? Seriously? My 8 year old grandson can do better"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So your approach is to antagonize the antagonist, just with a less nasty tone? Interesting.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "So yeah, it's on the speaker to change."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                In an ideal world I would agree with you, but for people to change their learned attitudes generally they need an example, they need to be taught that change.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So if you fight antagonists by antagonizing them, but you want them to change, where or how does the change begin?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  jrvedivici,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  That's an interesting take, and a view I hadn't considered before. I've always felt my approach was more by way of laughing it off. Sarcasm, you know?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  IME, turning and walking away is a form of validation to the hater that they've got you cowed. So is silence. What do you recommend?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: DuffyH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I've always found that standing up to bullies is the way to proceed (once you've tried turning the other cheek and all you've gotten for your approach is bruises on both sides of your face).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: Servorg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Servong,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      That's my experience, too. In elementary school, I was the slightly chubby, clumsy girl. To top it off, I wasn't physically aggressive, despite being quite tall. The abuse was unceasing, and went on for years. In fact, it only ceased in high school (age 13) when my 8th grade class of 25 was absorbed into a freshman class of over 2000.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yeah, high school was a lot more fun.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: DuffyH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Duffy first and foremost, well actually anyone reading this, I'm not criticizing your approach of laughing it off, nor am I saying I'm right and you're wrong. I'm just trying to offer alternate perspectives to problems I don't think people fully understand.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm a firm believer that the only change that can be executed by any person must come from with in first. I don't believe any person throughout history has every "changed the world". I believe millions of people make changes within themselves, which depending on their circumstances people witness and follow those changes. But I 100% believe if you want change, it must first come from within, then perhaps others will follow.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      So back to my "argument" which started so much of sub debates, I truly believe no words can hurt me. Why? Well because I decided a long time ago that only I control how I feel towards things, so no matter what you or anyone says, ultimately its how I decide to react to your words that depends on my reaction. So if I decide not to react, ultimately I can never be hurt by your words.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The other thing I keep in mind is none of us are born to be mean or miserable. We are designed, we are born to be happy. Babies only cry when they are in need, in their normal state they are content and happy. That is our natural state. When someone verbally attacks us, it has far less to do with "us", than them. As the saying goes; "Misery enjoy's company" many times when we are miserable we don't know or understand why. We aren't capable of changing our perspectives, to make ourselves happy (a whole other rant I can go on) so it's easier for us to act out, to share our misery, because then we don't feel so alone. It's easier for me to act out against you, to be mean, to try and share my pain, make you feel the same, then at least I won't feel so alone. I will have others as miserable as me. When someone attacks you verbally, it isn't because what you did, it's more something wrong with them that they are just acting out on. People's words can be poison if you allow yourself to ingest them, I try to refuse to. (do as I say, not as I do!! lol )

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      That's a quick over view of some of my belief's I can go on for a long time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        jrvedivici,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I agree with almost everything you've written. The part where my internal brakes go on, where I stop relating, is the idea that I can choose not to be hurt by words. Yes, I can. In theory. In practice, it's one of the most difficult things anyone can do. It's downright Herculean for some.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There's a reason we try to teach our children not to verbally beat up on each other. And yet they do, first chance they get. We're tribal. It is in the nature of tribal animals to exclude and ostracize. That's what we have to deal with and fight against, because the time when hatred, racism and meanness become artifacts is far, far in the future. I suspect it will have to wait until tribalism is bred out of us.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: DuffyH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "Yes, I can. In theory. In practice, it's one of the most difficult things anyone can do. It's downright Herculean for some."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Not anyone, because I did it! Like anything a journey of a 1000 miles starts with the first step. It's not as difficult as you might think, if you put your mind to it!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Read my response to Servorg below. I'm pretty sure I'm not articulating my point as well as I should. Sorry for that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "I don't believe any person throughout history has every "changed the world"."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If you save the life of someone, and in the process you risk your own, then I feel you've changed the world. Just ask Thomas Fowler what he thinks about Jon Meis.

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