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Shattering the Myth of Craft Beer

Revenue driven niche craft market has some great tasting items, but with all the fanfare and signage I am left feeling that it is a hyped revenue driven campaign, much like the Microbrew campaign in the 1990s. That campaigned ended with many brewpubs being bought out by lesser qualified but more monied people or groups.

Perhaps it is a distaste for promotion, for if a beer can hold its own, there would be no need for this construct that creates a subculture of consumers.

Craft beer has always been around. The hype is perhaps good, for true contenders to be considered for great products will certainly stand out, for those who get beyond the hype.

Craft Beer is to beer, what Thomas Moore’s Soul Mates and Chicken Soup for the Soul is to philosophy and metaphysics, or psychology.

Craft Beer is to beer, what regarding Guy Fieri, and Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives, is to geographical survey through culinary and culture excavation.

Fact: He is simply revenue, and repetition.

Craft beer is to the human history of beer making, as astral projection is to serious physics and psychology.

Expounding on ones understanding of a tapestry consisting of depth and variety within what has become commercially, as well as popularly known as Craft Beer, shows one to be un-analytical in ones cultivation of taste for good beer, and failing in recognition of social trends based on revenue and social structure.

In support I have come across articles by beer enthusiasts who state something to the affect of "Is craft beer becoming too faddish?"

Thus said, the real losers are those who fall for the fad, and this is just as with anything similar.

The popularity (fad) of streaming music from a phone has eliminated a sector large of the population who have not a clue of reproducing music at a great quality with sound systems. Those who recognize quality are not lost to the fad.

In the end, it is truly marketing trends, and the bar and restaurant industry's structure of business of supply.

case in point: Recently, at a Russian place in Brooklyn, the offerings were so good, mostly from Europe. On the Upper East recently, the Craft Beer Market was evidently the main focus of this one heavy volume customer venue, and it failed to offer a goodness found elsewhere, with more a balanced offering. I was surrounded by Chicken Soup for the Soul-ers, with not one adherent to serious brewers.

There are some parallel with trends that are international in scope and concern very serious market, that of hot sauce.

Sriracha sauce began to become so popular, from Europe to North America, more than 10 years ago. Non-hot spice connoisseurs began identifying with it as 'the hot sauce' to have, and it eventually gutted the market, so tables all over Chinatowns are littered with one bottle of the Sriacha, and little more, unless you are lucky.

Sriracha is loaded with sugar, for one, and fails to be nothing more than 'a would be one options out of a few' that is the practice at serious Chinese restaurants. Unfortunately the gutting affect has cut into other style-cuisine eating venues.

So, popularity over quality, and quantity over quality leaves much in its trail, such as unhappy customers. It takes a good manager who orders the beer, to take the extra time, and maintain or establish good offerings based on quality, not fads and trends.

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  1. I too hate living in this period of craft beer and long for the good old days.

    22 Replies
    1. re: JAB

      Goose Island is just a subsidiary of Anheuser-Busch, so let us not feel that we are engaged with products coming from 'small and independent people, in totality.

      Due to the marketing capital of Anheuser-Busch, we can find Goose Island many places, while others do not have the capital for wide distribution over Manhattan, or other cities.

      不公平 (bugongping)

      1. re: jonkyo

        Craft beer is a lot deeper than you understand. And if your favorite Chinese restaurant only offer Sriracha, you may want to branch out.

        1. re: SP1

          No, my favorite chinese venue excells due to it not giving into fed...trend.....popular appeal...

          Thus stated, beer venues follow suite.

          Distinguished tongues will find its deepness.

          1. re: jonkyo

            Isn't your navel tired of being contemplated?

      2. re: JAB

        I don't.

        What exactly were "the good old days"?

        Going to restaurants where the only choices were Bud, Miller, Coors, or Heineken (if you were lucky)? Going to bars with the same, plus Guinness or Bass Ale?

        It may certainly be true that there is a glut of craft beer on the market at this time, and it may also be true that there will be a shakeout like there was in the '90s, for different reasons entirely, but I honestly have no idea what you're talking about when you say "the good old days".

        I love that finding good beer at bars, clubs, and restaurants is now the norm instead of the exception.

        1. re: Josh

          Come on Josh, I was replying to a jonkyo post. Read between the lines.

          1. re: JAB

            Yeah, sorry - by the time I realized my mistake the editing window had passed.

          2. re: Josh

            I know what "the good old days" were like. A bar was a "tavern" with a limited selection of beer, usually a pool table, and a mostly local clientele who knew each other and the bartenders and owner. Such a place offered more than beer — good company, even when you went in alone.

            I know of one tavern that's a holdover from "the good old days," but I'm not tellin'.

            1. re: GH1618

              I used to go to places like that, but I sure didn't go there for the beer.

              1. re: GH1618

                I have one of those. The nice thing is they also have good beer.

            2. re: JAB

              I believe that there is value in immersion.

              I just can't do it with (American) Craft beer, so it remains a fringe drink.

              I immerse myself in Russian Polish Lithuanian etc beer. This is East of Germany immersion, Craft from that region included.

              I also do much Presidente immersion and Sapporo Draft immersion. Those are venue inclusive.

              1. re: jonkyo

                Every beer you mentioned is the essentially the same style...pale yellow lager.

                1. re: jpc8015

                  No, I did not mention beers save for the two Pale Yellow Lagers, Sapporo and Presidente.

                  The others are differed.......

                  All are good for immersion.

                  American Craft Beer is not immersion friendly.

                  Englash Ales are....

                  Yellow Pale Lagers, do the trick some times

                  1. re: jonkyo

                    Odd, I immersed myself in American craft beers just last night. Bridgeport Brewing Trilogy Ale was pretty good.

                    And seriously though...you are still wearing a scarf in your picture.

                    1. re: jpc8015

                      It is just they do not have the same distinct tastes and deep flavors in differential arrangement. Many are all trying to do the same thing.

                      But maybe this is my fault in that I am missing a possible fact that what I am tasting in the above reference, is the 'American craft beer style taste'.

                      Ommegang, and others I do like, but it is only Ommegang and a few others that I could immerse myself in, though the ambiances of the places that serve those, are sterile, with flat screens peering into ones soul, or should I say, emptying the souls of all in the bar......

                      Bridgeport.....well, since the University was bought by a subsidiary of the Moonies, I can't say I would be too excited about a Bridgeport beer.....just kidding.

                      I am glad you found it good.

                      Trilogy Ale, I will look for it in the glut of Craft beer.

                      1. re: jonkyo

                        You've gone completely sideways.

                        1. re: jpc8015

                          well thats progress at least. I think.

                    2. re: jonkyo

                      Actually not all English Ales are well made, neither are American Craft, Micro Whatever. Some Eastern European beers are good some bad. It is the same with everything.

                      Basically you started off with a notion that all craft beers were the awful design of madison avenue. This was proven incorrect. Then you talked of dirty tap lines, again proven incorrect. Then it was the distribution system systematically preventing you from drinking European beers, again incorrect. You are just trying to latch on to anything to prove your original point that American craft beers suck. You've even tried some and found some you like.

                      Your final assault that ALL American brews are not all good. Well no shit Sherlock. You also just go in with no knowledge of any beers and go to various restaurants throughout the city not known as beer bars. The multi tapped places you've also denigrated usually have the cleanest lines, the most hyper-regional beers and knowledgeable servers.

                      You can also try reading up on various beers and beer styles you might like. I don't particularly like Belgian Dubels, Quadruppels in general but I am not trashing Belgian beers as a myth. Those styles just don't excite my palate.

                      You remind me of the people that go on a nice vacation to say Argentina and then come back raving that Quilmes is the best beer in the world. What they are actually doing is bragging about their travels and their worldliness. In the end the beer still sucks.

                      1. re: MVNYC

                        But what about the marketing? It's all just marketing.

                        1. re: MVNYC

                          "Actually not all English Ales are well made,"

                          This is something very good to state, thank you.

                          I would scour the pubs in England and the shelves of grocers, for the good ones, and they would determine if I entered a pub, and stayed. I would go to a pub and sit, if a woman was behind serving, and if they had a few of my favored ales.

                          I will have to respond the rest of your comment, later.


                        2. re: jonkyo

                          The problem is when you immerse your head in them. You're actually meant to use them the other way 'round.

                      2. re: jonkyo

                        Please don't immerse yourself in my beer. I'm trying to drink it.

                        Go immerse yourself in Busch Light or something of that ilk. Nobody's drinking that, anyway.

                    3. Yes... I feel the exact same way about The Enlightenment. At first it was refreshing but it soon grew to be an overbearish marketing gimmick for so called "scientific ideas" and intellectual progress. After all, Franics Bacon used to be independent thinking when he first started out but once he became Robert Devereux's confidential adviser he was just a shill to the court of Queen Elizabeth and therefor incapable of producing free and open true scientific theory anymore. And all because she could provide wider access for his ideas! Posh! And dont get me started on Voltaire and Frederick The Great... What a sell out...

                      Yes, take me back to the dark ages I say when scientific discovery was kept in its place and had no gimmicky title to make it meaningless and to guarantee that its quality was poor.

                      3 Replies
                      1. re: Insidious Rex

                        As for Voltaire and the use of his name during the protest and art movement in Zurich, the Dada movement, regarding beer I have found this

                        "Emmy Hennings and Hugo Ball, Niederdorf Zürich ... use the backroom for a literary cabaret and to increase the sale of beer, sausages and sandwiches."

                        One of the best beers I have tasted in life, was a bottle of beer, name not committed to my memory, but served in a restaurant on the outskirts of Zurich, about ten years ago. That is fact. I simply pointed to a bottle on another customer's table, and stated "please bring me one of those.

                        I am meandering literally, taking time, with beers within the so called Craft Beer, and have found some good ones, amongst the many. One thing many people may agree or disagree, there is a certain qualities found in British and European Craft beers, that distinguish them very pointedly from American Craft beer.

                        For one, Russian craft is very high in alcohol content.

                        This is of British Craft, I have had while ago.

                        1. re: jonkyo

                          Those are both perfectly acceptable English ales which are great if you're into that sort of thing.

                          1. re: Josh

                            I had them both, I am sure, while in hotels in central London.

                            Here I just have such a selection, I have not bought them. I typically without thinking, aim for the Ukrainian, Lithuanian and Russia beers when shopping. Sort of an involuntary magnetism.

                      2. I have no idea what point you're trying to make here, but I will respond to your assertion that "Craft beer has always been around." Well, maybe if you're under 40; otherwise...no. Not in the United States, anyway.

                        I'm old enough to remember when all that was widely available was essentially one flavor of beer made by one of a few corporate mega-breweries. The few regional breweries (most of which had been killed by Prohibition), with a very few exceptions, were mostly making the same style as the majors.

                        If you wanted decent beer back then, you got imported--which as a practical matter was pre-selected not by quality but by marketing reach. There was good stuff available, but it wasn't necessarily the best.

                        So from an historical perspective, that comment makes no sense at all.

                        23 Replies
                        1. re: TVHilton

                          Thank you for that historical note. Very interesting. I can understand this. I witnessed it as a child, in the 70s. as I peered at the adult world.

                          1. re: jonkyo

                            I am Canadian so I don't know all the details, but I believe at some point during Jimmy Carter's presidency there was deregulation of many barriers that kept people from getting into the beer brewing business.

                            For a few decades prior to that time there was almost no access allowed to brewing equipment, unless you were a giant industrial producer who paid a fortune for it. The result was that a few generations of Americans simply did not know how to make beer, and couldn't even learn if they wanted to. Even the concept of a brew-pub was mostly banned by state regulations.

                            The craft beer explosion today is the result of those restrictions finally being lifted and the next generation of people finally being able to learn how to do it themselves, and to be able to access the equipment needed to do it.

                            Here's an interesting look at it from a graph perspective:


                            1. re: JDAWG

                              I am not just being a total homer but I honestly believe that the best place in the world for beer right now is the USA.

                              1. re: jpc8015

                                I envy you. I live in Ontario and there are a lot of people producing great beer here, and attempting to create a great market for it, but it's almost impossible to make it a commercially viable operation since we have the most bizarre beer distribution system on Earth: "The Beer Store". A retail chain, owned by Labatt, Coors, and Sapporo, that was granted a literal monopoly over stores that sell beer. As you can imagine, they sell almost nothing that isn't their own product. The government has their own liquor stores that also carry some beer, but they put very little effort into developing that side of the business (wine and liquor get almost all the shelf space) and getting even local craft beer on to the shelf is a huge hassle.


                                1. re: JDAWG

                                  That is too bad. I could see Canada as a hotbed for some great craft brewing.

                              2. re: JDAWG

                                More or less. There are actually a couple of key events here. The first was a bill making it legal, for the first time since Prohibition, to make beer at home (that's the bill Carter signed). The second was state-level legislation making it legal (again, for the first time since Prohibition) to sell beer at the place of production (i.e., brewpubs); Oregon and California were the first, in the early '80s, but other states quickly followed.

                                The former sparked explosive growth in the craft/hobby of homebrewing. Some of those hobbyists, obviously, went on to turn it into a profession.

                                The latter, though, is what made micro-brewing economically viable. It created a channel for selling beer that didn't depend on distributors, on fighting for shelf space, on bottling facilities, and so on. You could produce beer in miniscule amounts (compared to the big breweries that dominated the market) and actually make it pay.

                                And if you look at that graph, you can see that the single greatest leap is from 1988 to 1998. The 1988 figure reflects some of the brewpub laws, obviously, but the explosive growth comes in the following decade.

                                The legalization of homebrewing wouldn't have led to much of anything if brewpub laws hadn't created a commercial outlet for experimentation and specialty beers.

                                1. re: TVHilton

                                  Very good, though I am not checking any of the details of the history, so taking your word for it, it does match the history that I can retrospectively, see first hand.

                                  Practices of regulation are often in favour of powers of domination. Liberal thinkers, like Carter, in the end, supports policy that is more towards egalitarian, to the disadvantage, to some extend of the privileged and monopolistic.

                                  I had heard that money corrupted the microbrew scene with large companies buying out the small business brewing enthusiasts, thus killing to some extent, many brew pubs.

                                  In NYC, it was early 1990s that may have been the best for the brew pub scene.

                                  What I detect here now is distribution and marketing that has distorted the advantageous aspects of what you state: "It created a channel for selling beer that didn't depend on distributors, on fighting for shelf space, on bottling facilities"

                                  In Ithica, The Capter House used to brew their own beer, making it a special place, though in the recent decade or more, they have gone al out serving from dozens of taps, though none their own.

                                  "I used to go their often after jazz gigs in Ithaca. .... It is my understanding that they no longer brew their own, which is a shame"

                                  "or a little while they had their own brewing setup, but it took valuable floor space.."

                                  So it seems revenue is more important than the actual art of brewing and serving for some these days. The market seems to be going national, and that is a turn off. I suspect that brew pubs are not feasible to open these days, unless one has large overhead first from good distribution on the beer one makes.

                                  Possibly, the distribution network has killed to some extent, the more localized brewing market. I remember in the early 1990s, getting a bottle in the mail from friend out west or elsewhere, some interesting rendition of ale or stout.

                                  Property value in some areas kill some enthusiast's opportunity to open brew pubs.

                                  If it is a rarity and unique, by all means ship it across the Mississippi, but otherwise, there are beers brewed right in ones own state or regions, the likes for this beer drinker, have yet to sample due to Craft major players crowding out the smaller ones. These might be the taps that one is unable to avoid seeing, staring you in the face at every turn.

                                  Such major players are Lagunitas Brewing, Firestone, Flying Dog, Dogfish, Founders, etc. just to name a few of them.

                                  Being in NY, anywhere in NY State or New England New Jersey, I expect to see a Brooklyn Lager or Ale taps, but what is craft beer with migrants from California and Michigan crowding the row of taps.

                                  'Top 50
                                  U.S. Craft Brewing
                                  Companies" based on 2013 sales


                                  1. re: jonkyo

                                    Another sleeve of crackers from the briefcase for CH's Travis Bickle talking to himself in the mirror.

                                    1. re: Silverjay

                                      outings audio take while ordering at the bar, example of what is repeated weekly:

                                      customer"where is it brewed"

                                      server "ah...good question..I don't know..let's see..."

                                      customer "I take it you just started working here..."

                                      server "nah....not really....been here awhile, since noon"

                                      customer "No, I meant at the job"

                                      server "nah...stared last year sometime....I can look online if you wait a sec...or find my co-worker...hang on..."

                                      customer "well, I will get this one instead, had that before..."

                                      1. re: Silverjay

                                        You've shattered the myth of Internet know it alls

                                        1. re: MVNYC

                                          Projection is the tendency whereby one denies negative or bad traits in oneself, that he or she actually possesses, while at the same time, has a propensity to apply the guilt of possessing such traits, to others.

                                          1. re: MVNYC

                                            I do not know what beer goes good with projection, but surely, it is a craft beer.

                                            1. re: MVNYC

                                              The comment about "an internet know it all" is gone. That was the projection I was referring too.

                                              Maybe it was an apparition.

                                              Moon River Brewing Company makes Apparition Ale.

                                              Love that song, Moon River (月河), I often apply beers to my appetite while listening to it, Craft or not are permissible.

                                            2. re: jonkyo

                                              Buddy there are plenty of local breweries that are available at the beer bars you denigrate with multiple taps. Try looking for Single Cut, Barrier and Defiant to name a few.

                                              You bash th distribution system and our local beer bars with multiple taps. Yet those are the places where you can find hyper local stuff.

                                              What I've loved about chowhound over the years is the ability to learn from others that know more than I do about a particular topic. This ain't a soap box pal

                                              1. re: MVNYC

                                                "Single Cut, Barrier and Defiant"

                                                I shall check this out.


                                                1. re: MVNYC

                                                  how many thank you or thanks from me on this thread....

                                                  prior to the last...

                                                  1. re: MVNYC

                                                    'What I've loved about chowhound over the years is the ability to learn from others that know more than I do "

                                                    I like that too.

                                                  2. re: jonkyo

                                                    My point above is not to be a wise guy. My point is, there are levels of serious connoisseurs, and then there are casual connoisseurs. Also there are people who are not connoisseur.

                                                    Never any hard feelings in these exchanges I sketch above, but it does impinge upon the topic here.

                                                    That being the quality one gets with die hard enthusiasts behind the bar....even if it is just for a casual chat one what they have and how popular those beers have been.

                                                    1. re: jonkyo

                                                      I find it funny you have a problem with someone wanting to know about the beer they're about to consume.

                                                      1. re: Josh

                                                        The problem is that I have a problem not getting answers, to questions directed at servers in bars...bartenders, such as 'what state is it from....where is it from.....etc"

                                                        "you have a problem with someone wanting to know about the beer they're about to consume"

                                                        I am the consumer.

                                                  3. re: jonkyo

                                                    I've worked in Ithaca for the last couple summers with many other fans of high quality beers. Chapter House has plenty of great beers from small producers but 5 minutes away, you can hit up Bandwagon that can do a flight of 8 beers all made entirely on the premises with their own hops. Not to mention the actual Ithaca Brewery, the cider producers at the farmer's markets, etc. These places are mobbed all the time and proud of serving true craft brews. I had similar experiences in Ashville, NC and even the gas station near the place I grew up in NH now stocks beers made in tiny quantities at a one-man operation. In any case, I don't know that Ithaca is the best example of a place that has forgone small-scale quality for profit.

                                                    1. re: JeremyEG

                                                      Love the Chapter House. Went to Cornell in the late 80's early 90's so I was there when it was in its true brew pub phase and as a poor but curious student I found the beer amazing and I wanted to know more and experience everything... now 25 years later im old and jaded have had every bourbon barreled imperial sour super rare one off you can name. And I still have fond memories of eating stale popcorn and playing darts at the Chapter House and drinking the house porter... That being said the multi tap set up they have now makes it a must stop when Im back visiting the old school.

                                                      1. re: Insidious Rex

                                                        I love old days myself. Have not been there in ages, so can't say anything about their newy-ness aspects. I am sure it keeps them in business.

                                                        There is always McSorely's.

                                          2. The market appeal reduces "Craft Beer....[to ].. what Thomas Moore’s Soul Mates and Chicken Soup for the Soul is to philosophy and metaphysics, or psychology. "

                                            That does not mean that within the market, or out of it for that matter, there does not exist a value that is quenching.

                                            I had a German Craft beer, recommended to me by an individual who stated "it is the best beer in the cooler" or something similar to such a statement.

                                            It was not bad...but it was not as good as some old brewers in Germany. It was far below Kostritzer, and almost level to Stella. I enjoyed it, but not to the extent that it was stated I would enjoy it.

                                            The beer:

                                            Some smoked beer, with 'f' as the first word.

                                            They reach, and some achieve, but the arms of many of these crafts, are not long enough.

                                            3 Replies
                                            1. re: jonkyo

                                              Probably Freigeist. They make a lot of experimental beers, and definitely aren't "the best" anything. It's not the fault of the people making all this beer that, as with any scene that becomes popular, nudniks may not really grok the concept.

                                              1. re: Josh

                                                rec'd for Stranger In A Strange Land reference!

                                                1. re: Josh

                                                  Yes, that was the name of the smoked beer. Interesting assessment. Thanks.

                                              2. My bad. I missed that this was another "jonkyo" thread. Time to move along...

                                                1 Reply
                                                1. re: SP1

                                                  I'm sorry. I shouldn't have encouraged him. I didn't know.

                                                2. So you are the only one that drinks beer for taste? It seems you just like any large produced beer as long as you are in a restaurant of the same origin as the beer. Perhaps your "hype" is different than others but it seems your fetishizing other cultures affects your level of enjoyment.

                                                  3 Replies
                                                  1. re: MVNYC

                                                    indeed. Id pay money to give him a blind tasting just for the shock effect.

                                                    1. re: Insidious Rex

                                                      Could I trust such......well you know.......blind fold someone, get the camera rolling.....and

                                                      could be a good laugh.

                                                      I think blind tasting should be done with all. I might meet up with a friend, and I may do this tonight.

                                                    2. re: MVNYC

                                                      Interesting, most interesting. I dare say you have stirred some good points.

                                                      Well, a Hong Kong music recording seller, who worked with classical recordings, told to one measure of a good interpretation, was to get a performance or recording, with the conductor and orchestra, from the area, country or region of the composer.

                                                      This rule, does lead to some good interpretations. In the same sense, avoiding all hype, if one partakes of cuisine, it is best done when prepared by a native of that cuisine's origin. This is generally speaking.

                                                      Now, descending from this standpoint upon the topic here, it might lead to some truths, regarding quality, if the same is practiced. For instance, Ale, comes from England, and residing there, I was able to practice this model, matching origin and product. There is no doubt, about this and ale.

                                                      I have had some good Belgium style American beers, most notably Ommegang. Others have not succeeded.

                                                      So, IPA, is American, and though coming from the tradition of Ale founded, if I am correct, in UK, or at least matured there. IPA, is good, but there are so many craft IPAs, there finding a good one is quite easy, for it will brighten your mouth with so much flavor, it will be without a doubt, be immediately acknowledged as a good one. That is 'easy' as one sifts through the inventories and taps of some of these places.

                                                      "cultures affects your level of enjoyment." "fetishizing ", this may be interesting, and may go beyond what the
                                                      in-house hound monitors like to see.

                                                      There may be something in what you state, but perhaps the terminologies you have chosen could be interrogated, negotiated, and even re-termed, or maybe not.

                                                      Here are some Craft Beers from Russia or the East at least, East Euro that is. Along with he shelves of a place near Bay Parkway that is one of my favored beer purchasing places due to its selection from the East.

                                                      Mind you, other regions I devour too, even the domestic ones.

                                                    3. Can we get a cleanup crew over here? There's fragments of shattered myth all over the floor & somebody could get hurt!

                                                      3 Replies
                                                      1. re: chowyadoin99

                                                        Mythos, I was telling a Greek just last night, was my as of date, favored Greek beer.

                                                        Fragments, do come upon them with some of those aged ales, but never got hurt from one.

                                                        1. re: jonkyo

                                                          As a person with family in Greece I can heartily say Mythos is a terrible beer even in Greece. It certainly doesn't improve with a long transatlantic voyage in a green bottle.

                                                          1. re: MVNYC

                                                            I pound them in the ambiances of Greek venues in Manhattan. Crisp and refreshing, nothing in the realm in which I would enjoy my favored ale in a English pub, but none the less, enjoyable for what it is, a casual beer for pounding.

                                                      2. An experience very recently confirms my thesis here.

                                                        I further argue that there are "draconian and fascist practices of the distribution and sales network" the results of which limit restaurant and bar inventories to Craft. These exclusionary practices, are unfair to many makers.

                                                        I was at Salt and Fat. I had a Back in Black; Lebanese craft,the 961 Beer; Stone Belgium Indian Pale Ale; Nitro Milk Stout.

                                                        The one staff helping me with the beer, stated "that is probably my favorite beer, unfortunately, there is nothing on the menu that comes close, but......"

                                                        That was in response to I stating "Köstritzer or similar would be nice".

                                                        The Stone Belgium Indian Pale Ale, an American creation, that is dislodged from all its signifiers, was the best out of the batch.

                                                        Indian Pale Ale is British in origin (correcting my previous statement as being America); Belgium is Belgium. So, these contradictory terms, united in the region of America, must mean, using Belgium style brewing practices, in the creation of a beer using pale malt, with the ale fermentation.

                                                        It was the best.

                                                        In conclusion, the "draconian and fascist practices of the distribution and sales network" is a wide spread pathology inflicting venues with limitations that in the long run may cultivate a narrow knowledge of beer, to younger generations.

                                                        14 Replies
                                                        1. re: jonkyo

                                                          Uhm you realize that the same "facist distribution and sales network" distributes both Kozstrizer AND craft beers? They are called Union Beer Distributors out of Brooklyn and sell both products. Why would they conspire to not sell one of their offerings? If I were to guess I would say they make most of their money off of Budweiser.

                                                          Also the reason why "nothing on the menu comes close" is because Kozstritzer is a Schwartzbier. There are no beers that are like Schwartzbiers on the menu of that restaurant.

                                                          Read up on some beer styles before declaring a person's statement as proving your "theories"


                                                          1. re: MVNYC

                                                            This like the episode where Kramer pretends he's a businessman. It's a comedy lark to reveal the buffoon he really is....Any moment, this guy is going to pull out a pack of saltines from a briefcase.

                                                                  1. re: MVNYC

                                                                    Well, now I know what I am missing out on with Seinfeld.

                                                                    It also goes to show you, that the real talent in the show, lies beyond the individual named Seinfeld.

                                                                    How this connects with Craft beer discussions, well, I get your drift, of course, but it does not answer questions as to why venues prefer limiting their inventories.

                                                              1. re: Silverjay

                                                                You do have a point. Notice in this that Kramer is forgoing such things as the whiskey in the guys glass next to him, and knows how to chug.

                                                                I heard in some regions, chugging is mandatory. One can usually finding me chugging Presidente as loud bachata and merengue fill the air.

                                                                What is a blooper..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jBEE...

                                                                blooper " are squid-like creatures that are found in the ocean. "

                                                                I bet they go good with wheat craft beer, or a dark stout.

                                                                No comment on Stone Brewer, or the other beers I partook of?

                                                                1. re: jonkyo

                                                                  Don't get caught up in the method. It's the message. And you don't get it. Probably never will or at least you won't admit it. Because humility isn't a requirement to post on the internet.

                                                                  1. re: jonkyo

                                                                    Careful, you're breaking character....

                                                                    1. re: jonkyo

                                                                      "No comment on Stone Brewer, or the other beers I partook of?"

                                                                      The problem is you have a hard time differentiating brewery name from beer name or even accurately recording either. Whether this is the result of your achtick or and inability to read a label is beyond me.

                                                                      I am assuming you had a Stone Cali Belquque IPA? If so it's a hybrid IPA brewed with Belgian yeast. Not my favorite style but this is one of the better ones. California and Belgium seem to be pretty apt descriptors of what you are going to get. Most people can understand the beer is not from India or Belgium but then again they don't think English muffins are from England.

                                                                      1. re: MVNYC

                                                                        Thank you for the clarity on this beer.

                                                                        Just into the Lebanon beer I partook of, the dimming lighting got dimmer. Hence the inability to read the bottle of Stone Beer clearly. I do not think the menu title of the beer, matches exactly with the label on the bottle (see photo).

                                                                        The idea of location being accentuated on beer labels is something to appreciate. One could not even imagine the times I have been in a pub or bar or restaurant, with taps in front of me, inquiring after the server "where is it brewed" and "well....I don't know....that is a good question...."

                                                                        " Most people can understand the beer is not from India or Belgium " It is good to find out what these words are associated with, to better understand the beer.

                                                                        Hybrids are always good.

                                                                        I actually poured a bit of my Nitro Milk Stout into half the glass of Stone Belgium, simply to initiate the Milk Stout, in a segued fashion.

                                                                      2. re: jonkyo

                                                                        blooper " are squid-like creatures that are found in the ocean. "

                                                                        Who would have thought you followed the works of the fascist overlords Mario and Luigi.

                                                                        1. re: MVNYC

                                                                          It is the Italian in me. Mario and Luigi. Though I love Peroni, Fellini and Antonioni, pizza, I am not too much into Benito Mussolini, at all.

                                                                          In any event, there are restaurants in Manchester England named Mario and Luigi, though they don't seem fascist, nor places that serve beer.

                                                                          I am beginning to think, beer enthusiasts are fascists in our tastes.

                                                                          I did not realize the blooper was associated with games, until after the post, and returning to the definition.

                                                                          That may have been due to the Lithuanian beer I had partaken of prior to posting. Not craft exactly, it is called Zhiguly Barrel 95 Beer. A beer for "demanding palates" according to the label. 9% alcohol.

                                                                          I recommend this, though not as an accompaniment for food, unless it is fish. It's taste is quite strong, in a certain kind of way.

                                                                          It seems to be brewed by a large company, Gubernija AB, but delicious.

                                                                          Here is a statement on Lithuanian Craft beer:

                                                                          "Did you know that Lithuania has lots and lots of craft beers in styles that are unique to Lithuania?"

                                                                    2. re: MVNYC

                                                                      Well, there were dark beer, and still are, at the place in question. But, the gentleman had stated "there is nothing like that here". He was referring to perhaps, the quality of taste, quality meaning kind.

                                                                      The dark beers at the place in question, had no relation in taste to Kozstrizer, similarity that is.

                                                                      So, perhaps it is the seller who takes the orders, or the actual buyer who buys into some idea as being cultured, and only desires to serve American 'Craft Beer'.

                                                                      Demographics is in play, whatever one wants to conclude, and in the end, taste too.

                                                                  2. The place in question, had Ommegang, a brewer I love, almost fully.

                                                                    For this dinning customer, the problem was they had Ommegang's wheat beer, the only one that I do not care for.

                                                                    It is true one cannot please all customers. And with food perhaps the main attention getting item, this perhaps causes true fastidious beer drinkers, to be a bit let down.

                                                                    An immigrant, and small business person, the Korean owner, is endeared to small American brewers (though I did not survey all the beer names and makers).

                                                                    This is understandable.

                                                                    1. I would be remiss if I did not point out that the "myth of craft beer" has apparently been busted by a guy who first enjoyed a craft beer in February of this year. Hardly an expert on the subject...and he wears a scarf in his profile photo so his argument is automatically invalid.


                                                                      The fact is, the craft beer world is thriving today better than it ever has. The best part is that I think we are only scratching the surface. We are, after all, only 10,000 years into this beer thing.

                                                                      28 Replies
                                                                      1. re: jpc8015

                                                                        That is 'first delicious US craft beer'

                                                                        notice the adjective in the statement.

                                                                        You may have a point 'scratching the surface'. I took to the indie beers of Canada in locations I have resided in past, to some extent, as well as the English indie beers. The word 'craft' had yet to be applied to such beers.

                                                                        Now one can find such manifestations coming from Russia and the East. Here in the states one does not need to look further than your local grocer, to some extents. Demographics does play into it though.

                                                                        It does depend on venues though. At times, if eat on my own terms, and dictate to those I am with, the tendency is to be in venues with good national-regional brands, but no craft or microbrews. It is all about diversifying.

                                                                        "Alulueer receipt – This records a purchase of "best" beer from a brewer, c. 2050 BC from the Sumerian city of Umma in Ancient Iraq" quote from internet.

                                                                        Now that is craft.

                                                                        you may be correct on the '10,000 year' statement. See the photo.

                                                                        1. re: jonkyo

                                                                          There are so many breweries doing so many great things with beer. Deschutes, North Coast Brewing, Dogfish Head...all of them put out a number of great beers. If they are not "craft beers" then how would you describe them?

                                                                          1. re: jpc8015

                                                                            He doesn't know. And he will never offer a mea culpa. He's already too invested in his particular self-absorbed pathology. When challenged like this, he resorts to tangents or in this case, multi-posting photos and personal anecdotes. It's in an effort to feign engagement but also distract from the ridiculousness of his original argument. It's all a form of cyber narcissism. Not a sincere attempt at discourse.

                                                                            1. re: Silverjay

                                                                              Its like that wreck on on the north bound 95 that's backing up traffic on south bound 95 to no purpose where I'm driving. You come by it finally and you know you shouldn't slow down to look and should just be thankful that you weren't involved and speed ahead but you can't help yourself and you peer over to look at the wreckage. Its like that every time I click on one of these threads.

                                                                              Reviews of places that are not eaten at, beers that are apparently picked based on obscure labels. Everything gleaned by observation, not consumption.

                                                                            2. re: jpc8015

                                                                              I partook of Dog Fish some years ago, before the term 'craft' really got traction that it does now.

                                                                              Small brewers, if I may state, is one way.

                                                                              The term craft has really been a marketing theme, and I do sense a marketing campaign in no uncertain way to market and sell the beers termed craft.

                                                                              No one advertises the beers I find and like, to my eyes, that is, in ads that dance in the presence of the public. I find them in the bar or the store, and try.

                                                                              All in one bag, the cottage industry of craft beers, and that of small to medium and large, all have plus and minuses. Some are minused all over, and you can find them at the local dive watering whole for cheap.

                                                                              1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                How do you define a "small brewer"? Certainly I would think that Seven Brides Brewing would be considered small by most observers. Alternatively, Miller would not be considered small. But where do you draw that line? Is Redhook a small brewer? How about Widmer? Deschutes? The latter three all put out a pretty good amount of beer and it may be a stretch to call them small. But if someone tries to tell me that Deschutes is not a craft brewery I will know they are either ignorant or drunk.

                                                                                On the other side of that coin, just because a brewery is small does not make it a craft brewery. There are lots of small breweries that focus on making very good golden lagers, and some of them are spectacular. But is this a craft? I would think that most interested parties would define craft breweries as those that experiment with different yeasts, malts, and hops to develop new styles or hybrids of styles. You often see added flavoring agents like fruit, coffee, herbs, and spices.

                                                                                And plus...you are still wearing a scarf in your photo Dude.

                                                                                1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                  Dude, don't even get into it with him.

                                                                                  Listen, in NYC the two largest beer distributors, Union Beer and Manhattan Beer, provide posters advertising "Craft Beer" to bodegas and other markets to hang in the windows. They are all over the place here and usually advertise the Stone and Smuttynose level of brewer. Not really the hyper local or smaller craft brewers. The posters look like they were done on a Mac by an intern. But they are ubiquitous from the street because, well, there are a shitload of bodegas here. For whatever reason, he thinks this is part of some kind of huge Madison Avenue marketing scam. The posters are just a promotional tool the distributors pass out.

                                                                                  There are posters that advertise Irish beers and Belgian beers and Polish beers. But he's got a bug up his ass about anything "American" so he goes off on these wacky conspiracy theories....As noted earlier, half the time he doesn't know the difference between the brewery name and the beer. He's critical of Goose Island, but wanks off on Ommegang- both of which are owned by larger concerns...Last year he tried to tell us how fucked up the U.S. beer market was and how craft beer was part of the Madison Avenue scam and how great the market is in Taiwan(!), mentioning Taiwan Beer specifically. When we pointed out that Taiwan Beer is part of a government owned monopoly, he changed tact and started making fun of Japanese people that had been abducted by North Koreans.

                                                                                  1. re: Silverjay

                                                                                    This sounds like the type of conversation that I want to be involved in. I live a very boring life.

                                                                                    1. re: Silverjay

                                                                                      And basically Bodegas will put up almost any promotional material they get. Any way to get the customer in the door.

                                                                                      Let's also not forget when it was suggested that all craft beer came from dirty tap lines. When one observed assumption is overturned another just pops into place.

                                                                                      1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                        I worked in more than a few bars in my early to mid 20s. The entire time we had Budweiser rep who would come in and clean the tap lines, not just for the Budweiser lines but all the lines. It took no more time and very little extra effort to clean all the lines.

                                                                                        This may have been a West Coast phenomenon but I suspect it was not.

                                                                                        1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                          It depends on the area, as some states may not permit wholesalers to perform services for accounts, but typically they will clean lines regularly, and if they don't, reputable establishments will clean them or pay someone to do it.

                                                                                          1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                            Most bars in NYC clean their tap lines on a frequent basis. I was referring to one of John's other posts claiming that craft beer bars don't clean their lines.

                                                                                            1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                              Yeah, I understood that. I was just saying that the idea that tap lines for craft beer being dirty is more than likely not accurate.

                                                                                              1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                Yes that was one of his first unsubstantiated attacks against craft beer. I am sure he heard it mentioned from a Kyrgyzstani goat herder while drinking at a local Surinamese rijstaffel place.

                                                                                                1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                  I had some of the best momos at that place.

                                                                                      2. re: jpc8015

                                                                                        all people have differing and similar also, engagements with the world around them.

                                                                                        I do not occupy spaces fully enough to be already familiar with the names of some of these beers, or many, for that matter.

                                                                                        Sam Adams is not small.

                                                                                        Red Hook, do not know its history, and though on the market domestically many places in distance from each other, have had it, I have maybe drank it once. I would say it is not small, and does not have as wide a distribution as Sam Adams, so somewhere between.

                                                                                        I will try Deschutes, you sparked my curiousness.

                                                                                        "craft breweries as those that experiment with different yeasts, malts, and hops to develop new styles or hybrids of styles" this may very well be the defining element of craft.

                                                                                        The scarf is from Nepal, purchased by myself in NYC.

                                                                                        I have recently found many Nepal venues. I just found a sushi place last night, that is not Chinese nor Japanese, but Nepalese. They serve 3 dollar pints of draft Sapporo for the happy hour. The staff is Nepalese.

                                                                                        Also forget the name. Not too far afield from Salt and Fat is a Nepal venue that is great. I do not know what the beer is like there, but shall investigate.

                                                                                        What I have seen in local papers about Gun Hill Brewer in the Bronx, though much publicity locally, that may be a small brewer. Been curious and have yet to sample their brew.

                                                                                        Here is my other scarf(see photo). Scarfs go great when drinking craft or any other beer.

                                                                                        1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                          Okay, so it looks like we have some form of loose agreement on what a craft brewer is. If that is the case then why can't a large brewery also be defined as a craft brewery? Coors puts out Blue Moon which is a Belgian style white ale and I think they put out a couple of seasonal brews under that label. If they have done some experimenting with ingredients and developed some new styles for their seasonal offerings wouldn't they be a craft brewery?

                                                                                          Just to be clear, I don't think that just because something is labeled as craft beer that it is automatically good. There is a lot of bad beer out there...to include Blue Moon.

                                                                                          1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                            Blue Moon has a wide distribution even in places that do not serve craft beers, such as Dominican and Meixican venues.

                                                                                            I do not think that it is Craft from the taste. Never took to it too much. It is done up in large production industrial factories.

                                                                                            So, it may come close in taste, to some extent, but due to production manner, it is not craft. Ex: craft woodworking furnishings are done up in small workshops; non-craft in factories.

                                                                                            1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                              "some experimenting with ingredients and developed some new styles for their seasonal offerings " if I could state, they do this in a marketing manner, with hired people to see what they would best be positioned to sell.

                                                                                              That is corporation. In the cottage industry, or craft market, they are serving particular attitudes towards tastes of beer. There overhead is less, they will create something that will be tested in the niche market of people who pay attention to taste, wanting some particular.

                                                                                              Then Coors comes along and follows suit, but hires teams of marketers to do that, not a group of partners, who decided to make beer.

                                                                                              That is the difference.

                                                                                              Compare: Coors Factory ; Ommegang Brewery

                                                                                              "labeled as craft beer that it is automatically good."

                                                                                              This is true. I think serious beer people can be found here on chowhound.

                                                                                              But so many times, such as most weekends, if I ask "where is the beer brewed...where is it from...." People employed to pour the beer don't know, and I assume they don't get asked obviously, for the attempt to find out, by looking at the label for bottles, or looking on the web for taps.

                                                                                              1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                If you think that Ommegang doesn't develop beer with an eye towards what will sell and be profitable then you are drunk right now.

                                                                                                1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                  They both try to survive. Coors does it with the resources and styles similar to that of Colgate-Palmolive.

                                                                                                  Ommegang does it in ways that are similar to a chef at your local culinary eatery, who made the name, chose the interior, and knows the customer base he or she serves, though one a wider scale.

                                                                                                2. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                  Not one person claims that anything labeled craft beer is automatically good. Craft, micro, etc are just terms to differentiate beers from the Bud Miller Coors products. In the real world most people can see the difference. You also denigrate Coors yet worship at the alter of large state owned breweries such as Taiwan. Your arguments do not hold water.

                                                                                                  1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                    I do not worship Taiwan beer, but do appreciate it, and drank it over Coors if the two presented themselves to me.

                                                                                                    The water for my argument is simply looking the distinguishing facts of markets, demographics, trends, and trying to make some honest assessments.

                                                                                                    In High School I did a music review program for the closed circuit TV news show, that I also produced. In the opening I would say "where music is known as an art for and not a popularity contest."

                                                                                                    I sense, with wild names that shout in ways to entertain and capture attention, a similarity that Craft Beers have to American small makers of hot sauce and that market.

                                                                                                    Crazy labels, yet they all send me walking to the Mexican isle. Of course the beers of craft are not lacking in quality as a whole in this manner, but there are so many differing makes doing the same thing, and this can lead one to think that there are few stand outs.

                                                                                                    My drinking is not inclusively in venues that serve craft, so the occasion I am in one, about once a week, limits such a survey of Craft. When I buy from the grocer, I typically purchase imports of Polish or Russian etc. this also limits.

                                                                                                    State owned enterprises, well, they have their place in the world. At least Taiwan imports Belgians.Canadian micros...the beers that is. If not it would be Carlsberg or Taiwan beer.

                                                                                                3. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                  I think that the photos tell something.

                                                                                                  Left Hand Brewing is the first photo.

                                                                                                  The second is Gun Hill Brewing Company in Bronx.
                                                                                                  In New England, such as Maine or New Hamsphire, I would drink Nut Field (NH) and Sea Dog (Maine).

                                                                                                  If I dig into localized beer, that will be Craft. Ithica, Cooperstown, and now just in the city, there are beers that may service the area, and especially the nyc brewers, will sell enough to remain small just in the area.

                                                                                                  When I am in the North East and someone mails me a bottle of stout not sold here, now that will be a craft beer.

                                                                                                  The brewing capacity and reach is too large to stay particular, for companies such as Left Hand Brewers..

                                                                                                  1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                    One article here:

                                                                                                    "As Brewing Giants Push Craft Beer, Bud and Miller Suffer"

                                                                                                    "Goose Island is the new Bud. So are Shock Top and ZiegenBock. And Leinenkugel’s and Blue Moon, for that matter, could be called the new Coors or Miller...."-article found on the net

                                                                                                    They, the giant brewers, are loosing market share due to the brewing renaissance, or what has been termed commercially as 'Craft Beer'.

                                                                                                    So, they use their huge capital to try to match something to that market.

                                                                                                    This is RCA, Sony, and Samsung making audio for the stereophile market, to compete with an made amplifiers from small makers like Cary, Rogue, etc.

                                                                                                    Fraud all the way. Craft, of course not.

                                                                                                    That is only my opinion

                                                                                                    1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                      In the case of Goose Island, those beers were developed by them and they were bought out by Anheiser-Busch InBev. It would be more like Samsung buying Cary to compete with the small makers.

                                                                                                      1. re: RB Hound

                                                                                                        That makes total sense. Thanks.

                                                                                                        This is what happened to some early microbrew beers as well as Rolling Rock.

                                                                                                        Sony did buy McIntosh Audio, though keeps its production in the same place as the single owner creator before. I would imagine that this is not the case with some or many of the micro buyouts.

                                                                                        2. Looks like I have a favorite new poster on Chowhound.

                                                                                          1. You sometimes need to be careful wherever beer is sold.

                                                                                            1. Quantity over quality .. it's the American way. Except for quality craft beer, hi end audio, and Shark Brand sriracha sauce.

                                                                                              4 Replies
                                                                                              1. re: Maggie19

                                                                                                That is an exceptionally broad generalization.

                                                                                                  1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                    It doesn't translate well into print.

                                                                                                1. re: Maggie19

                                                                                                  When I am in a particular bar drinking a particular beer,.... beers such as Sapporo or Presidente, it is quality due to the quantity I can consume, in an atmosphere that is quality.

                                                                                                  Now, I cut the quality corners on atmosphere, when I drink so called craft beers, or such beers as mainstays of quality in the imports. Not always, but often, it is due to television screens in innumerable display, and what typically comes with that. If there is free pop corn, now the quantity here does count as a plus.

                                                                                                2. apparently non-craft beer contains LSD

                                                                                                  9 Replies
                                                                                                  1. re: Lau

                                                                                                    Is that what's been missing from my life all this time?

                                                                                                    1. re: joonjoon

                                                                                                      pretty much...i think im just going to drink a ton of non-craft beer and live on mars and concoct conspiracy theories

                                                                                                      1. re: Lau

                                                                                                        wow, you could do that in a radio station booth, live, like Alex Jones, and make tons of money.

                                                                                                        What non-craft do you prefer?

                                                                                                        I engage in consumption of both so called craft and the mass marketed kind, but Eastern Euros are one of my regular favs.

                                                                                                        Again, craft, so many tastes....

                                                                                                        Mars Beer, is true blue beer, but I have not a clue where it is brewed.

                                                                                                        Try this in the photo:

                                                                                                        1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                          didnt you just write a post decrying craft beer and how awful it is, but then you just said you drink it...uhhhh good job

                                                                                                          1. re: Lau

                                                                                                            I drink it....and decry the marketing hype of it, and find that one must sift...drink...that is...through a market glut of so many kinds....

                                                                                                            I am seldom falling in love with one, but occasionally it does happen.

                                                                                                        2. re: Lau

                                                                                                          well, you might come across apostrophes in some of the names of craft beers, I have yet to do a survey. But with non-craft beer, there are no apostrophes, so quite familiar. Just kidding....jesting.

                                                                                                          But I was curious, so here it is, Phin and Matt's, from Upstate:

                                                                                                          Southern Teir is worth checking out from time to time. I have had it a few times, few years back.

                                                                                                          1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                            nice try...changing the subject doesn't work. you completely just reneged on your entire original post

                                                                                                            1. re: Lau

                                                                                                              The fact remains, whether people would care to admit it or not, words I end up using, in some of my comments here, I google them with the word 'beer' and....lo and behold ....
                                                                                                              there is some person or groups of people, who came up with a name for a beer, a so calle d craft beer.

                                                                                                              It reminds me of high school when all these classmates got a guitar for christmas, and 20 guys are shouting out names of their soon to be formed rock bands.

                                                                                                              Juvenile in some ways.

                                                                                                              Do they taste good.....

                                                                                                              Well, this makes for stand outs to stand out.

                                                                                                              Example, I have no great favor for this Nitro Milk Stout. There are older brews that could never be replaced in the excellent taste, with these run of mill beers.

                                                                                                              But let the mills brew, for there are sure to be some winners.....some.....that is.

                                                                                                        3. re: joonjoon

                                                                                                          I think it stands for Long, Slow Dehopping.

                                                                                                      2. this thread is like watching a train wreck...it's horrible, yet I can't tear my eyes away.

                                                                                                        4 Replies
                                                                                                          1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                            and before jonkyo gets to it, here:

                                                                                                            1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                              "It reminds me of high school when all these classmates got a guitar for christmas, and 20 guys are shouting out names of their soon to be formed rock bands. "

                                                                                                              1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                Go to the book store to the self help new age isle, and you will see the same manifestation, of people going all out to get in on the market.

                                                                                                                The title of books, are about as abundant as the names of just the craft beers from one state.

                                                                                                                My point being, what I responded to above:

                                                                                                                "Example, I have no great favor for this Nitro Milk Stout. There are older brews that could never be replaced in the excellent taste, with these run of mill beers.

                                                                                                                But let the mills brew, for there are sure to be some winners.....some.....that is."

                                                                                                                But than again, maybe this is an issue of style, and American craft has a style that is not jiving with my taste buds, due to falling away when I was spoiled in London, where they have been brewing since 1581.

                                                                                                          2. This thread would make a great monologue for an absurdist theatre piece. It's certainly entertaining. Either that, or someone slipped something into my espresso because it's starting to feel a little trippy.

                                                                                                            3 Replies
                                                                                                            1. re: JeremyEG

                                                                                                              Who is your favorite absurdist playwright? And what do you surmise was his favorite beer.

                                                                                                              1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                Eugene Ionesco. And of course his favorite beer would be Revolution's porter Eugene.

                                                                                                                1. re: brentk

                                                                                                                  Ionesco is one of my favored playwrights in the absurdist genre, but I dare say, he would beckonto his Romanian roots and ancestry, and partake of Timisoreana Romanian Beer.

                                                                                                                  I admire the taste myself, of this beer. Back in his day it was still a Romanian brand not gobbled up by monolithic global hyper-capitalism's monoliths.

                                                                                                                  Due to the immediacy of answers to all sorts of questions at the fingertips of the world wide web, I have discovered that Eugene porter by Revolution in Chicago, is named after "Eugene V. Debs, an American union leader"

                                                                                                                  Porter beer I discovered years ago, is named after the profession of a porter, but forget the exact details of that.

                                                                                                            2. How many times can the term "marketing" be used in one thread?

                                                                                                              1 Reply
                                                                                                              1. adjacent to this topic and totally impinged upon by Craft Beer, an analysis of one of the largest markets for craft beer, Bushwich.

                                                                                                                This was inspired by my trip to Craft Beer Bar, where I discovered the quenching and very palatable Newburgh ICA.

                                                                                                                Bushwich has been in recent years, receiving an influx of middle class, or young american middle class, I should say. This has first been due to galleries with adjacent revenue acquiring free market retail venues for eating and drinking, and partying.

                                                                                                                Unlike Soho in the 1970s and 1980s, what I have identified as being strikingly different, is a colliding of the trendy market consumerism and the art gallery. These two worlds collide, where as in decades past, these two worlds may have been seen as diametrically opposed to one another.

                                                                                                                I would argue that it may have been the changing commercial revenue retail driven landscape of Soho in the late 1980s, that at once drove out the base of art galleries, yet meshed with the higher end galleries that could stay open, thus mixing fashionable dining and socializing with art.

                                                                                                                Something else seems to have happened manifest in Bushwich, and that is the mainstreaming of adventurous and experimental art, dislodging such from the serious, as it is acquired by those who desire it as fashion. All this goes hand in hand with the Craft Beer phenomena.

                                                                                                                In the late 1980s and early 1990s, I would listen to serious experimental musicians at Houston Knitting Factory and places like New Music Cafe Soho. I partook of microbrew beers, and others. These days, the glut of craft beer, with only some being of repeat desired purchases, follows the glut of band wagon experimental art and music. Both are using the same spaces to acquire attention.

                                                                                                                After my adventures at Craft Beer Bar during the night of the art festivities, I ventured towards Knickerbocker and happened into a Honduras restaurant, that doubles as a club after midnight. This was my way of paying patronage to the inhabitants of Bushwich prior to the meshing of art and craft beer. Barena is a nice beer.

                                                                                                                I also partake of the Hebrew beer, at Craft Beer Bar, and it was quite good. But that is where my explorations of Craft ended, that night.

                                                                                                                62 Replies
                                                                                                                1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                  I have no idea what you just said.

                                                                                                                  1. re: Lau

                                                                                                                    No comment on that. There was an arts festival in Bushwich, over the weekend, and may even be for longer.

                                                                                                                    Friday night I hit some places with a friend, but being alone the next night, I could do my looking around and ponder. This leading to what may be a culinary / sociological or anthropological analysis, that is historically based.

                                                                                                                    Just this, Soho did not look anything like Bushwich, before the designer shoe stores and Armani had their signs up.

                                                                                                                    My point is:

                                                                                                                    "This has first been due to galleries with adjacent revenue acquiring free market retail venues for eating and drinking, and partying."

                                                                                                                    And, Craft Beer culture, is one of the most salient features of this venue market, that sits side by side, in tandem, with the flourishing arts in Bushwich.

                                                                                                                    But this is only my observations:

                                                                                                                    "These days, the glut of craft beer, with only some being of repeat desired purchases, follows the glut of band wagon experimental art and music. Both are using the same spaces to acquire attention. "

                                                                                                                    And keeping to localized small brewers, I partook of Hebrew, and Newburgh. A great decision, for the Newburgh ICA is quite exceptional in the populated pantheon of Craft Beers.

                                                                                                                    1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                      This is what happens when you let hipsters drink beer.

                                                                                                                      1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                        The hipster calling out the hipster is quite hipster.

                                                                                                                        1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                          I may live near Portland but I am far too old and fat to be a hipster.

                                                                                                                          1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                            Come on now, I wasn't referring to you.

                                                                                                                              1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                The ultimate in protest to craft beer and trendy thai eating.

                                                                                                                                entering a thai restaurant, in cobble hill, ordering a Stella, served in a delightfully shaped glass, and chatting to the Thai server about the authentic Thai food at an establishment that it is agreed upon, is one of the few places for authentic Thai, in the Greater New York Area.

                                                                                                                                Killing two arguments with just one beer.

                                                                                                                                1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                  By mentioning Stella you have only further discredited yourself. If you were in a serious Thai restaurant you would have ordered Tiger Beer.

                                                                                                                                  1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                    Tiger beer is not Thai. Beside, it was not a serious Thai restaurant, but our discussion was about serious Thai food, and she did not question about my not ordering food.

                                                                                                                                    Tiger beer is Malayan Breweries. I have had it in clubs in Europe, and maybe in Asia. Or maybe it was the club Tiger Tiger in London that I am mixing it up with. If I went there (a house mate had), I am certain I did not drink Tiger beer. I typically drank Strongbow in clubs.

                                                                                                                                    Bringing us to a good point. Singha is promoted in Thai restaurants at 3 dollars. I see the signs all over.

                                                                                                                                    Chang beer in some places all day is 2 dollars.

                                                                                                                                    Think of all the craft beer you could buy with the savings.

                                                                                                                                    1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                      Those beers all taste the same. Every single last one of them.

                                                                                                                                  2. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                    If you were Marlon Brando, you could have started shouting "Stella.... Stella...."

                                                                                                                                    1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                      Your love of Stella has definitely cemented your cred on all matters craft.

                                                                                                                                        1. re: JAB

                                                                                                                                          My mother overheard me discussing Belgian beer with my brother. For the next family event she bought a 24 pack of Blue Moon at Costco...because it's "Belgian".

                                                                                                                                          1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                            Too bad she didn't buy something original, like Blanche de Namur!

                                                                                                                                            1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                              "A" for effort mom however, missed it by that much.

                                                                                                                                              1. re: JAB

                                                                                                                                                "missed it by that much"

                                                                                                                                                I assume you're saying that in Don Adams' voice?

                                                                                                                                                1. re: TVHilton

                                                                                                                                                  You know it! Now, we're showing our age.

                                                                                                                                              2. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                                Market Tricks.

                                                                                                                                                Some ought to make it illegal to market something as something it is not.

                                                                                                                                                The Italians and Europeans actually have laws on things such as this.

                                                                                                                                                  1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                                    Italians come to mind, but other Europeans have come up with laws to protect foods from being defined, if they are not from origin or veer off in quality.

                                                                                                                                                    1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                      I was not aware that Italians are not Europeans.

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                                        Or more to the point, that Italians are not subject to the laws of the EU. News to me.

                                                                                                                                                  2. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                    Referring to Stella, I assume.

                                                                                                                                              3. re: Josh

                                                                                                                                                Stella was on offer, and I did not want to engage myself with complexity, just quench my palate.

                                                                                                                                                I used to pound Stella at Liquid Lounge (10th near ave a), years ago. But any other place would see pints of ales and pils in my hand.

                                                                                                                                                When one is offered limited selections that conatin Hinny, and Bud, ordering a Stella, speaks character.

                                                                                                                                                I only partake of it, for a refreshing drink, in instances where most people would simply drink a Coke.

                                                                                                                                                1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                  Ordering a Stella never speaks character.

                                                                                                                                                  1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                    No it doesn't. It speaks obeisance to advertising and marketing campaigns.

                                                                                                                                            2. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                                              I lack the glasses, the proclivity towards hive mentality, and have only one plaid shirt, if it is even plaid....its tiny checkered.

                                                                                                                                              Thus said, following my premise that craft beer is similar to teens and young adults coming up with names for their rock bands, as soon as they gain a guitar,we have Hive Beer.

                                                                                                                                          2. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                                            whether jpc8015 is a hipster or something other, I have not a clue, though, such a response does not address his comment, at all. He may have a point.

                                                                                                                                            Of course using the word 'let' indicative of an allowance, in the context of the sentence above he constructs, it is as if such allowances are just that, allowances.

                                                                                                                                            Suppose we disallowed the hipster to engage in drinking. Aside from a duplicitous mandate not allowing them, but others allowing, to drink, one might see niche mass market trends (craft beer) suffer. Band wagon enthusiasm for the experimental arts may leave Bushwich with Honduran bars, and little else.

                                                                                                                                            1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                              Yes....of course, I do.

                                                                                                                                              They read my posts.

                                                                                                                                              They are not in the hipster hive.

                                                                                                                                              1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                What are you doing here? This site is way too mainstream for hipsters. I'm sure there is some hipster food site you guys all go to that I have never heard of.

                                                                                                                                              2. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                                No I only talk like this in confessionals, on podiums, in amway meetups.....when I am being amwayed that is....best over a beer, craft or not.

                                                                                                                                                1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                  Confessionals? Come on, all good Catholics like a craft beer.

                                                                                                                                                  1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                                    Before and after the confessional, if I can bring myself to go to one.

                                                                                                                                                    1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                      Go receive the sacrament of reconciliation and offer the priest a pint of a good craft beer.

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                                        I do not practice 'sacrament of reconciliation'. My sacraments, or what are sacramentum, are scattered all over. Such as on my plate at Chatkhara.

                                                                                                                                                        As for reconciliation, I skip conversion, leave my confession to chowhound readers, and engage in celebration at venues both depicted on chowhound, and those off the radar.

                                                                                                                                                        Babette's Feast is one way to look at it, but I really loved the movie My Dinner with Andre.

                                                                                                                                                        1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                          @jonkyo: you should really bring your conversation over to beeradvocate.com.

                                                                                                                                                          1. re: SP1

                                                                                                                                                            Could you imagine combining Jonkyo's scarf with dbag Todd's flat-brimmed "Suicide" hat? It would be an incredible look.

                                                                                                                                                            1. re: SP1

                                                                                                                                                              you want to throw him to the wolves? theyll hold him down and force him to drink a case of Heady Topper...

                                                                                                                                                              1. re: Insidious Rex

                                                                                                                                                                On this topic, I had a Victory Pils. It was so bad.

                                                                                                                                                                Victory Prima Pils to be exact.

                                                                                                                                                                The Czechs or other long time makers of Pilseners, would be mortified, and disgusted, if they had the same opened bottle in their hand, with Pilsener on the label.

                                                                                                                                                                Again, the market glut and labeling makes this more about names than actual taste.

                                                                                                                                                                And again, some winners exist, but finding them in a crowded pantheon of names and styles, is like finding a needle in a haystack. Thus said, I have found some.

                                                                                                                                                                Maybe the Czechs can make a law against calling something a Pils when it is not.

                                                                                                                                                                1. re: Josh

                                                                                                                                                                  I'm curious which ones fit in his "some winners exist" category. Perhaps he likes a beer that used to have the slogan (maybe it still does?) "A Fine Pilsner".

                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: RB Hound

                                                                                                                                                                    Well for starters, I will say I have long indulged with much pleasure, in drinking the Ommegang family of beers.

                                                                                                                                                                    Cannot speak of all the beers, I have encounted, but most recent ones that come to mind, are Newburgh ICA........

                                                                                                                                                                    Last night I was in a venue and put down many a bottle of Samuel Smith Rebel IPA. It was good, bbut more served the purpose of the reason I was in the bar, rather than giving me a gastronomical experience. Furthermore, the other choices were the standards of Corona, Bud, Hinnie, etc.

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                      I was talking about "pilseners" specifically. You dodged my question.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: RB Hound

                                                                                                                                                                        I dodged no question, just gave a generalized answer.


                                                                                                                                                                        Pilsner Urquell is very good, and other pilsners from Czech, Lithuania and Poland, and Germany.

                                                                                                                                                                        Dare not enter into purchases of microbrewed pilsner, unless I hear good things about it.

                                                                                                                                                                        Victory Prima Pils, was nothing but a uu-palpable bottle with some cute name and label, for attracting sales.

                                                                                                                                                                        I will avoid it, since I now know.

                                                                                                                                                                        Bitburger Pilsner is palpable. Radeberger Pilsner is good.

                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: RB Hound

                                                                                                                                                                      Sessions dark lager is really nice.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: RB Hound

                                                                                                                                                                        I think I saw him comment that this one was good:

                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                        Thats interesting since Prima Pils is brewed by Victory which is widely considered one of the best breweries in the country. Prima Pils is also brewed by a German trained brewer, is made with German hops and German malts, has won several brewing awards and is considered one of the best examples of its kind in the country. But perhaps its not Stella-like enough for you? Sounds to me like you dont like hops and perhaps malts. May I recommend a wine cooler instead?

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: Insidious Rex

                                                                                                                                                                          "Shattering the myth of Willamette Valley pinot noir..."

                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: Josh

                                                                                                                                                                            Shattering the myth of Smirnoff Ice.

                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: Insidious Rex

                                                                                                                                                                            "Victory Prima Pils, was nothing but a un-palpable bottle with some cute name and label, for attracting sales."

                                                                                                                                                                            I do not care what the statistics say.

                                                                                                                                                                            I would never drink it again.

                                                                                                                                                                            It tasted horrible.

                                                                                                                                                                            If I knew before hand" German trained brewer, is made with German hops and German malts, has won several brewing awards" I might of forgiven them for a serious effort, though wondering if the taste would have been any better.

                                                                                                                                                                            Stella is not what I compared.

                                                                                                                                                                            Czech Pilsner, German Pils also, would work. I will think to drink one so I can more confirm this last Pils experience I had.

                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                              You like German Pils? Of course you do. Try a Jever and let me know what you think...

                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: Insidious Rex

                                                                                                                                                                              To be honest, I have never been excited about awards.

                                                                                                                                                                              Just another insignia to slap on the label.

                                                                                                                                                                              Beside, if the awards are anything, they share similarity to the Oscars, which I have never seen, save a recording of it, once. Cable TV dueling, face offs, competitions, these retarded cooking competition shows.

                                                                                                                                                                              We see how television culture, or its lack of it, influences much, with the WBA.

                                                                                                                                                                              But wait, look: "The World's Best Label 2013".


                                                                                                                                                                              Forget taste, and enjoying friends and socializing with beer. Lets discriminate and find the best label.

                                                                                                                                                                              Who is the judge? Paris Hilton? Jeff Bridges? Martha Stewart? The Publishers Clearing House?

                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                Maybe you should be the judge so that you can ensure not a single American beer is recognized.

                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                                                                  That is not the point of my argument.

                                                                                                                                                                                  All myths share similarities. Such as the Myth of Hollywood, and their Oscars committee, etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Now we have the WBA.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hardly anything important beyond marketing, and foundation for the myth.

                                                                                                                                                                                  To the contrary, I think not buying into this craft beer gimmick, one can be a free agent, and drink and be merry, as well as telling others what lovely beverages one has indulged in.

                                                                                                                                                                                  With Jazz music, there are some Europeans that play good, but who are the true jazz greats, and where were they brought up.

                                                                                                                                                                                  In some ways, that means one must hunt hard for those American beers that are good. Standards differ in places away from origin.

                                                                                                                                                                                2. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                  You could save yourself having to write all that and probably most of the ridicule here if you just said "I dont like the taste of Prima Pils". Thats it... No one would have a problem with that. No need to try to horribly justify this dislike with silly erroneous nonsense and fail miserably. Its ok not to like something... I dont like watermelon but I dont think its part of some vast conspiracy among nouveau fruit growers to trick me into buying tons of it at the expense of the good old cranberry or lingonberry which never get any press and are always better even when they are imported in a container ship from europe and served by a mexican in a thai restaurant on Mulbary Street.

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Insidious Rex

                                                                                                                                                                                    The other thing is how old was this bottle? Was it light struck? Stored properly?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Was it on draft in a bar with dirty tap lines? Etc. etc. etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: Josh

                                                                                                                                                                                      It was on a shelf in a museum.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Literally....well.....in the cafe area.

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                        If that's actually true, that it was on a shelf and exposed to UV light, then there's every possibility you had a bad bottle. Lightstruck, oxidized, etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: Insidious Rex

                                                                                                                                                                                      There is no conspiracy.

                                                                                                                                                                                      This is an analysis of the market, for a quesi-lay perspective, and a participatory perspective.

                                                                                                                                                                                      There are important issues at hand such as the missing out of cultivating a taste for beer by some, who just dive head first into this 'craze'.

                                                                                                                                                                                      And it is more than that, it is finding consistently or semi-consistent encounters like the Prima experience, and then being confused with all the 'hype'.

                                                                                                                                                                                      So, deciding to get through the mesh of this interwoven phenomena of craft beer, I get help from MVNYC, Silverjay, JAB and others.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Quite a Hegelian act I have undertaken.

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                        There'll always be bandwagoneers. Doesn't invalidate the quality of whatever's being fetishized.

                                                                                                                                                      2. @jonkyo, you could really reach a much larger audience on beeradvocate.com. There is a vast community that could be educated regarding the Craft Beer myth.

                                                                                                                                                        1. After this enlightening post, I now think WWJS (what would jonkyo select), before making my own selection.

                                                                                                                                                          95 Replies
                                                                                                                                                          1. re: JAB

                                                                                                                                                            The answer is almost always El Presidente.

                                                                                                                                                            1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                                              El Presidente only with blaring bachata.

                                                                                                                                                            2. re: JAB

                                                                                                                                                              "What would Jesus say?"

                                                                                                                                                              He would say nothing for he does not do beer. He would be too busy turning water into wine.

                                                                                                                                                              I would select perhaps on from the photos

                                                                                                                                                              1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                Jesus would most certainly appreciate a good craft beer.

                                                                                                                                                                1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                                                  Well, as an anthropologist, and someone who has traveled and resided abroad from my own national domicile, I would have to state that culturally, beer may be quite alien to the taste buds of the region and time period that Jesus lived in.

                                                                                                                                                                  Thus said, Divine Intervention may be bestowed upon him by the graces of the almighty, and he might then take to binging Craft beer.

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: donovt

                                                                                                                                                                      I am no biblical reader. Thank you for that link.

                                                                                                                                                                      And I did not know beer was issued forth in stories in the bible.

                                                                                                                                                                      Well, then Jesus may very well "appreciate a good craft beer."

                                                                                                                                                                      For reasons not to offend believers and worshippers of Jesus, I find no one calling a craft beer after his name.

                                                                                                                                                                      Sermon On the Mount Beer sounds good.

                                                                                                                                                                      " Civilizations were actually formed around the creation of beer. Through Sumerian culture in 2800 BC, through the Middle Ages, The Renaissance and The Age of Enlightenment, to Germany in 1516, with their cherished Reinheitsgebot (German Purity Law forbidding adding any ingredients other than Water, Malt, Hops) beer has been enjoyed by the masses. Through America’s ill-conceived Prohibition, and right up to the modern micro-brew revolution, beer has been an important part of our lives. Beer is mentioned in the bible. 1410 B.C. Deuteronomy 14:26 – “whatever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink (Beer), or for whatever thy soul desireth.”

                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                      Both the Sumerians and ancient Egyptians, who pre-date Jesus era, brewed beer. Everybody knows this.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: Silverjay

                                                                                                                                                                        This is wikipedia:

                                                                                                                                                                        "recent archaeological findings showing that Chinese villagers were brewing fermented alcoholic drinks as far back as 7000 BC on small and individual scale, with the production process and methods similar to that of ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia"

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                          Wow wikipedia. You've really dug into your anthropological tuition there. Desperate times call for desperate measures I guess.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: Silverjay

                                                                                                                                                                            wikipedia and the phenomena of the internet, I am sure I share this use with others.

                                                                                                                                                                            But, in academic journals I have thus far only come up with references to more recent social groups, not ancient ones ....

                                                                                                                                                                            "Skinheads were extremely nationalistic and patriotic,
                                                                                                                                                                            adorning themselves with tattoos, T-shirts, and patches of their country’s flag. After a long day at work, they enjoyed drinking beer with their friends at the local pub. Although there were some women skins, males dominated the subculture and often reinforced traditional patriarchal ideals of masculinity." -
                                                                                                                                                                            2004; 33; 406
                                                                                                                                                                            Journal of Contemporary Ethnography
                                                                                                                                                                            Ross Haenfler

                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                              Wrong. The point is, you require wikipedia to discuss this subject and most of the rest of us don't. Which speaks volumes about your level of knowledge, not to mention your level of humility. You want people on the forum to accept your knowledge of Chinese crap in good faith but are unwilling to accept knowledge or conventional wisdom that others bring to the discussion. Instead, you position your point as exposing a myth, cracking a code, and unlocking a conspiracy. That is probably a sign of sociopathy by the way.

                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                Hmmm... I also like drinking beer with my friends at the local pub after a long day at work. Call me a Skinhead.

                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: Silverjay

                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, here is a photo of the ancient Sumerians drinking beer.

                                                                                                                                                                            I am surprised to see the similarities of their garments to college age kids, and 21 century westerners.

                                                                                                                                                                    3. re: JAB

                                                                                                                                                                      It dawned on me today, as I was ruminating about all the wonderful selections of beers in places I go for Eastern Europe beer, that Craft beer is attempting to create within one national boarder, USA, selections that mimic what I can find in a Russian supermarket or small grocers in southern portions of Brooklyn.

                                                                                                                                                                      From as far north as Lithuania, east to Russia, and jutting about from Ukraine to Poland and various other locations, it is such a delight shopping for 16 oz. bottles. One can get a few, from varying countries.

                                                                                                                                                                      Six packs are overrated, as are 12 oz. bottles.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                        Wow, more macro mega beers brewed, bottled, and shipped from thousands of miles away. It's interesting that you constantly struggle to assert you once visited Eastern Europe while saying nothing about beer....Personally, I drink most of my beer on tap. It's fresh. You might want to consider that delivery mechanism for that reason alone, but the lack of exposure to all tbose beer labels and posters that confuse and scare you are at a minimal in such a case as well.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: Silverjay

                                                                                                                                                                          Taps in the supermarket are rare.

                                                                                                                                                                          I cannot confine myself to the bar always. I do confine myself to bars, at times, throughout a week, but even then, some bars have no tap beer.

                                                                                                                                                                          In places such as London, all the pubs I attended to drinking in had tapped beer. That was London. Of course, and I chose my pubs with the qualifications of the beer they had on tap.

                                                                                                                                                                          I live in America for goodness sake, and it just is different.

                                                                                                                                                                          In Poland other such places, the beer was wonderful. Tapped in a pub, or bottled for other occasions, wonderful.

                                                                                                                                                                          What is the point. America missed the tradition, and now in the year 2014, hundreds of small brewers all over, are trying to create that history, within less than 2 decades.

                                                                                                                                                                          Beer from the above photos, are from places that have brewed for hundreds of years.

                                                                                                                                                                          Of course, there exists a giant gap, in taste, from the growler headquarters, to the shelves of these stores I frequent for beer.

                                                                                                                                                                          But, some like what is offered in this Craft Beer 'craze'. I find some winners too.

                                                                                                                                                                          But with crazy names and labels to pronounce as ones latest love, the craft beer craze does seem more about trends and crazes than taste.

                                                                                                                                                                          That is not to say I think that you do not know beer.....

                                                                                                                                                                          You and others find something good in this craft beer. Value one might say. I tend towards a critical approach.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                            But with crazy names and labels to pronounce as ones latest love, the craft beer craze does seem more about trends and crazes than taste.

                                                                                                                                                                            You seem to have mastered a number of languages, so I would imagine that a cunning linguist as yourself would not have any problem whatsoever pronouncing whatever beer name is presented to you.

                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: Tripeler

                                                                                                                                                                              What is a "robust series limited release".

                                                                                                                                                                              This seems to be similar to LP and EP releases in the music industry.

                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                              For whatever reason, the following beer seems perfect for you:


                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                Crazy names and labels like the Wynchwood Brewery's "Bah Humbug" and "Scarecrow" which you posted up thread as examples of English Ales you like?

                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                                                                                  Bowen Island Brewing's Artisan IPA, would draw the more antique collector inclined person, while Mother Funker would be a wider audience (consumer target) beer, drawing from young college guys, to retire folk, who care to ruffle the feathers of their spouses.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hop Whore by Tyranena is a definite sell. Distributor sales persons would surely see some managers and owners of bars, wanting this in visual exposure to customers (the tap with label....that is). That would be confined to college and young drinkig establishments, not places that take in a customer base of educated morally upright and older.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Ballast Point's Sea Monster is a sell, for its art work on the label and its many wordings appearing on the can: "robust" "imperial stout" "handcrafted" .

                                                                                                                                                                                  Through such semiotic constructs, craft beer sells the same way other products sell.

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ballast Point's Sea Monster is a sell, for its art work on the label and its many wordings appearing on the can: "robust" "imperial stout" "handcrafted" .

                                                                                                                                                                                    See you just google stuff without knowing what you are talking about. Ballast Point is a well respected brewery which that take in a "customer base of educated morally upright and older". As is the Bruery. Ballast Point bases the names on different fish, the Sea Monster is their stout and is quite good.


                                                                                                                                                                                    Again, actually read things instead of just googling pasting and pontificating.

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                                                                                      For the point I was making, independent of whether the beer is tasty, Ballast Point served my purpose.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The competitive realm of naming and labelling. This has an independent from taste aspect, that does impinge on sales, to people.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Perhaps on chowhound, there are not too many people that fit into that demographic, but it exists non-the-less.

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                        If the beer is good who I am happy that wacky name made someone buy it. It means that good beer will keep being produced. If Bells Two Hearted IPA was named Satan's Jism I would still drink it and love it.

                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                                                                                          Lets hope Larry Bell sees this! Would love to see that one get past the Tax and Trade Bureau...

                                                                                                                                                                                  2. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                                                                                    Now, I do think that if no one is agreeing with me, it is purely out of 'devil advocacy', and not agreement.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The naming and labelling of Craft Beer is one of the more highly competitive areas of this niche industry....or craft.

                                                                                                                                                                                    This does highlight some of my major points in the post above entitled "Shattering .....Myth".

                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                          Naming and labeling beer is just a way for brewers to distinguish themselves and show off their own sensibilities. Not sure how this obvious point eludes you or why you are so desperate to position it as shattering a myth.

                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: Silverjay

                                                                                                                                                                                            Point after point gets dis-proven so he thinks his misunderstanding of marketing can finally shatter the "myth"

                                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                            Haha, so EVERYONE here is motivated out of devil advocacy and only you have cracked the code by wikipedia and googling beer labels?

                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: Silverjay

                                                                                                                                                                                              Here is a Scottish schwartbier

                                                                                                                                                                                          3. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                                                                                            "Wynchwood Brewery's "Bah Humbug" and "Scarecrow" which you posted up thread as examples of English Ales you like?"

                                                                                                                                                                                            To answer your question, perhaps they have delighted my tongue once or twice......

                                                                                                                                                                                            And yes, they are part of the marketing gimmick...or should we say marketing trend, of craft beer.

                                                                                                                                                                                          4. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                            "But with crazy names and labels to pronounce as ones latest love, the craft beer craze does seem more about trends and crazes than taste.

                                                                                                                                                                                            That is not to say I think that you do not know beer.....

                                                                                                                                                                                            You and others find something good in this craft beer. Value one might say. I tend towards a critical approach."

                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm sorry but who cares what a beer is named? How does that matter as to what the beer tastes like? Each one of your conspiracy theories has gotten shut down as I stated way upthread to which you also never responded to. Now it is the name of the beer that means the quality is lacking? The truth is beer like many other products is made to make a profit. Some people are in it also because they love beer and some aren't. This is not a "craze", it is a trend in a good direction after years and years of having not much choice.

                                                                                                                                                                                            As to your beloved foreign beers, a lot of them flat out suck. If anyone is following a "craze", it is you. You follow the craze of categorizing and fetishizing other cultures. A lot of Dominicans drink Presidente in NY as a taste from home and as something they are used to. Since you seem to like getting bombed listening to Dominican music you take value the beer as part of this experience. However the beer just isn't a well made beer at all and if in a bottle is virtually guaranteed to be light struck. So your critical approach seems to based on your disdain of Americans being able to make anything good.

                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                                                                                              Aside from the fact that Dominicans will tell you, Presidente in Dominican Republic tastes different than the export to America. But, you are right on to some extent.

                                                                                                                                                                                              I like its crispness, and it certainly is not the beer to drink when I am having or desiring a gastronomic affair with my beverage.

                                                                                                                                                                                              You seem intend on "categorizing and fetishizing" my arguments, rather than seeing it what I present has to one degree or another, potency.

                                                                                                                                                                                              There is a glut, in the craft beer market. That glut causes grocers to not be consistent in the shelf inventory, so when I find one I like, I might have to spend an entire day going about to find a six pack of it.

                                                                                                                                                                                              "The truth is beer like many other products is made to make a profit. "

                                                                                                                                                                                              This is true, but I have identified a highly competitive area of the craft beer culture, naming beers, and using 'crazy' and even absurd names, bordering on the profane even.

                                                                                                                                                                                              This has become a huge selling factor. also, has this factor been intoxicating to the results that the products are just run of mill craft.....

                                                                                                                                                                                              Another point is the fact that I can go to a tap filled bar with many craft beers, and the individual behind the bar does not have an answer when I ask "where it this brewed". That happens, frequently.

                                                                                                                                                                                              This highlights an absence of depth, in some people engaged in this market.

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                Here's a menu to a "tap filled bar". Clearly states where the beers are from. Most of the bars known for beer do this. As I stated earlier you seem to pop into places that may have a few taps but aren't beer bars per se.

                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I beg to differ due to my experiences in bars full of craft taps, and young to middle aged educated middle class and others who assimilate to that culture.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Though, when this is offered, and one can certainly find them, nice.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have no idea what bars you go into or at what hour but most beer bars have a wide range of enthusiasts. Perhaps ask for a suggestion on the manhattan or outer boroughs board. It might help

                                                                                                                                                                                                2. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hahaha. You are so clearly fetishizing your own arguments and experience. That's so funny that you would accuse him of that.... You are going to the wrong bars if you can't find knowledgeable bar staff that can't speak to you about craft beer. There are lots of NYC Chowhound threads on good places to drink......The stuff about grocers and "crazy" "absurd" "profane" names and how they are a "huge selling factor" is just so childish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Silverjay

                                                                                                                                                                                                    "......The stuff about grocers and "crazy" "absurd" "profane" names and how they are a "huge selling factor" is just so childish."

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Maybe it is seen this way by you and others. That is ok. I still believe that there is some discerning elements to my argument.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    "wrong bars if you can't find knowledgeable bar staff that can't speak to you about craft beer"

                                                                                                                                                                                                    The hype is just that, craft beer so common, that people drink it and just go with the flow, while true aficionados, know where to go, where knowledge is presented, as opposed to "ahh....where is it from....you mean brewed.....you know....that is a good question....."

                                                                                                                                                                                                    So, there is some craze or trend, that causes craft beer to hover beyond those who are true aficionados.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Another evasive response that fails to address the issue being discussed and simply parlays into your conspiracy theory. You've provided no backing for your argument on hype and the beer drinking experiences you've shared on Chowhound usually reflect getting bombed at bodegas. If you're going to claim "true aficionado" insight, you'll need to come up with something better than drinking Taiwan Beer, Chang Beer, Presidente, Stella, and the myriad of mega Euro brews that are mass produced and shipped all over the world.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  2. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                    "There is a glut, in the craft beer market. That glut causes grocers to not be consistent in the shelf inventory, so when I find one I like, I might have to spend an entire day going about to find a six pack of it."

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Here's what I am guessing. You're popping into random bodegas and buying random beers. Most bodega owners don't know much about beer and just order a bunch of different ones and this varies by individual store.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    If you are really serious about a beer you like, go to a beer store(there's a lot of them now). They generally will have what you are looking for.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    If not just stick with whatever foreign macro lager you'd like.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                                                                                                      He doesn't really understand or use the term "glut" correctly. This is a word meaning oversupply and not an abundance of options. Even using the term as hyperbole like "glut of options" it still assumes that a consumer would, for some reason, not want more choices. This is clearly tied to his personal fringe philosophy and less do to with actual insight into the beer drinking culture in this country.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                      What craft or bespoke brands of any type of products are going to be consistently available at any type of market?

                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: Silverjay

                                                                                                                                                                                                          "What craft or bespoke brands of any type of products are going to be consistently available at any type of market"

                                                                                                                                                                                                          A: Breads; SUVs; Apple Products; Sam Adams; Lagunitas; figs from turkey; etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Figs? Right because you've cracked the code on them as well?

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Many craft brewers don't bottle. Many only produce regionally. Many have little or no marketing budgets. Many are completely tied to how their distributors handle their product. And many produce beers on a seasonal basis. All of this affects how, when, and where they are sold. This is much more relevant than mustached hipster conjecture on how bespoke figs are more consistently available than craft beer.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                                                                                                        "You follow the craze of categorizing and fetishizing other cultures"

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do I need therapy for this....condition.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Reducing awareness, taste, and value to fetish, is quite odd. The use of "fetish": people today, by the millions have a fetish with their internet connected hand held devises.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        "disdain of Americans being able to make anything good."

                                                                                                                                                                                                        No, this is not true. I love american music (eric dolphy to Charles Ives), american niche audiophile companies, Levis, etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Beer and cheese there is no match to the other side of the Atlantic. Corn on the other hand, well there is plenty of good corn in America.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I do not think I nor anyone should be put on the defensive, though getting me to defend the idea that there exists a market glut of crazed and hype product, that detracts from a more honest market, is certainly fair.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                          There is no single country in the world today that does beer better than the USA. And we do cheese pretty fucking well too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Name one country that does beer better.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  No way. Every style done well in England today is being done just as well, if not better, in the USA. In addition to that...all the styles that England does not do well such as pale lagers, Belgians, and wheat beers are all being done at a high level in the US.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Your illusions may be derived from a latent patriotism, that was subjugated by NPR and PBS, Democracy Now, and neoliberal ideologies in the media.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This patriotism, surfaces in the form of apolitical consumer products you love.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    They may have ruled here once, but that does not mean that they stopped brewing good beer, when George Washington kicked them out.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Name one English beer that doesn't have corresponding American beer that is just as good.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Actually I will give him this one. Traditional English beers such as milds, bitters and ESB's are all done better across the pond. English Pale Ales and IPAs are also very good though different from what you will encounter over here. But again most of these beers don't make it over or don't make it over in pristine shape.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The craft beer scene is blooming over there too, a lot of good beers coming out of England

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            You are in denial that a neoliberal media saturation, has repressed your patriotism......

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It is a jest. Take no offense.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Benedict Arnold, I only know from history books, the way most do.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Mathew Arnold, now I am a big fan of him. I am wondering if such a mind would view Craft Beer, as a cultural critic that he was, or would he simply find a flavor and enjoy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've recently rediscovered Magnolia here in SF. They make some really good traditional English styles like bitters and milds. It's great to have these so fresh. They're an interesting respite from the more American styles.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: Josh

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Southern Pecan.....Rye IPA or their Timber Beast............no that is in Mississippi.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Here it is:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "Magnolia Pub and Brewery: Magnolia opened in 1997 on the (in)famous Haight Street. "

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You are certainly lucky, in the geographic kind of way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: Josh

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Haven't had Magnolia but is love to have more English style beers here in the states. I'm wondering if there is enough of us to sustain a customer base?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Session IPAs are becoming popular - I would guess if a big name brewer were to introduce a good mild or bitter it could be popular.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Josh

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I brewed a bitter in my garage. It was popular with me. :-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      a friend who used to live in NY brews.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      What did you name it?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I bottled it so that it would be done conditioning right at Easter...so I called it my Alleluia Ale.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: Josh

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I will check that Sessions IPA out. Sessions is quite good.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I love the bottles of the Dark Lager.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: Josh

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Anvil Ale has been around forever and is about as good as it gets IMHO - just isn't a style that is very popular.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On a related note, you picked a poor time to head north - things are exploding down here now, and I fear the implosion is only a year or two off. Places pop up, get immensely popular, then...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: RB Hound

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ESB's aren't the same. They're around 6-7% and much bigger. Traditional bitters are closer to 3-4%.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Don't worry about my access to beer, things are exploding here too. Faction, Cellarmaker, Social Kitchen, Fort Point, Henhouse. Lots of good stuff. Just picked up a sixer of Anderson Valley Gose in cans!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: Josh

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yeah, you've made a reasonable point.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: Josh

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "ESB's aren't the same. They're around 6-7% and much bigger. Traditional bitters are closer to 3-4%."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              This seems to be true.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Also beer in the UK is much cheaper, in the bars.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I was out last night and paid 7, per choice. No imports, and all domestic craft beers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I soaked myself in Craft Beer last evening. I was nearly bathing in it, though my insides were.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Beer is not Cheaper in the UK I just returned a couple of weeks ago and Beers were about 5 GBP for anything of decent quality. The cheaper stuff was things like Kronenburg, Heineken and Guinness.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: chefj

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I was doing my masters and the year after, 01 to 03, the pubs seemed about 2.50 to 4.00 pounds for a beer.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Pubs close too early.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  US open container laws equal to their early close law.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I used to walk out of pubs with half of my pint, since I needed to get back to study. Strolling down Lower Road in Surry Queys towards my home, on a sun lit summer afternoon, with a pint of John Courage, was rather nice.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I wish I could have brought all the collection of pub glasses home, but did not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have seen partying ladies, crawling into cabs from pubs, heading to some club all with full drinks in tow.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nothing like getting buzzed with some beers on the underground, on the weekends, on your way to the pub or club. London underground teems with beer in hand party goers by Friday 7 pm.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sounds as if inflations have cut into the pint a bit.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for the update.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I think it is more taxation not inflation. The Owners were not pleased about it at all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: chefj

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Makes sense. Not the taxation, but your statement.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The puritans would knock us off, or the patriots would kidnap us, to keep that market out of the states.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  2. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    And there it is! The disaffected former wandering anti-American English teacher who can't help but position himself as a contrarian that has cracked the code on the entire craft beer drinking population! Feeding mega Euro corporations is cool by your standards but small passionate American brewers are, according to you, illusions from the media. Because a few months ago you didn't know the difference between a brewery and a beer name but now you want us to believe you have it all figured out?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: Silverjay

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      beer vs. brewer: The difference was known. If one mistakes brewers for beer names, or names of beers for brewers, this is not a great error, unless it is chronic, in all associations or most with the product. I am not a robot.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "Perhaps the triumph of free trade can be seen in the fact that 96% of American children can identify Ronald McDonald, while the only fictional character with a higher degree of recognition is Santa Claus"- Joel Spring

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I dare say the same mechanisms that make the statement true above, is at work in the Craft Beer micro-industry.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      That is why I am not so determined to explore the craft beers, as it is a formidable task to make sense of these six packs that stack the shelves. Of course, in the bar taps, it is indeed easier to take samples of beers, but even there the stand outs I have mentioned, that are repeated in many bars, while the other percentage, are stand inconsistent from bar to bar.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Get through the glut by focusing on a radius, that does not include Dog Fish Head.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Whatever you do, continue to ignore everyone's advice. One must work to maintain pariah status.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  2. re: Silverjay

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Also interesting that he complained earlier that beers from California or Michigan ate into his ability to get local beer but he creams himself over some beer with any slavic sounding name. Most of which suck by the way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If its in a green bottle covered with dust on some shelf in a slavik market in Queens...it is more than likely awful.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Pivo is just the word for beer in most Slavic languages

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: jpc8015

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The Lithuanian and Latvian use "alus"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  They aren't Slavic languages. They're in the Baltic family.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I know that. I was just providing further information on beer in the region.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That is due to the fact that there are far more shelves being used to house California and etc beers, over New York beers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I dare say, really digging into craft for real, would be to focus on a radius that does not extend further east than Portsmouth, further west than Erie PA, and further south beyond Silver Springs Maryland.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To accomplish this would make you a pariah as the products one would seek, are hard to come by, unless you go to the distributors of beer.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Many, actually quite a lot, of the New York craft beer available here is only on tap. Generalizing about the bottles you see at the corner bodega is silly...And it is Silver Spring, Maryland. Not Silver Springs. But I guess you pretend geography is a specialty as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: Silverjay

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Silver Springs, well, I find the non-phonetic writing system of Chinese is superior to phonetic alphabets, to some extent, but I will save that for the linguistic meet-up.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            " corner bodega"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            What about the ones in the middle of the block?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yes. Middle, left, right. Where ever you go you are probably making the same ridiculous assumptions and claims. It's the nature of the beast. You are doomed to sound effusively hipster and pompously obtuse. I'm sure the Chinese have one word for this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Go into a beer store, most are organized by state.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Try http://www.goodbeernyc.com/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It is on e9th St between First and A.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  3. As someone inclined towards valuing authenticity, honesty, yet critical of sensationalism, I do feel that the market of Craft Beer is utterly deserving of my and others critique.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thus stated, there is the chance to negotiate or navigate though such a market and find value in it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thus stated, I chose Newburg ICA one time recently. In this one can skirt the hype and focus on small local brewers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Other than that, in the same time frame, its been larger affiliates of the craft, in places I have had no choses for a "small local brewers" beer. Newburg beat them all, in taste.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    3 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: jonkyo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry, but you're using lots of words to describe something that I don't think exists. Here in Indiana, we have a thriving craft beer culture, producing some of the best beers I've ever tasted (taste formed in Europe).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: pikawicca

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I grew up in Indiana, a few miles from where Three Floyds now stands, although it wasn't there at the time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: pikawicca

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Well, I was recently at Revolution Since 1762, on Water Street, and there is something to this Craft Beer, and it is a myth, and also a craze.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          For starters, the Italian Re Ale was so good. An Oyster Stout was amazing. That was from Dublin.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The Bronx cast that they had on tap was good, but did not measure up to any of the others that I drank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          All the beer I drank was from tap, and they were imports, save for the Bronx.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Of course that is permissible, because the venue is pre-revolution. If there was no revolution we would not be having this discussion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. All I can say is that this thread begs for a few beers to accompany the read.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm partial to a local Eschenbräu :-D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: linguafood

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Looks like I picked the wrong Chowhound thread to quit sniffing glue.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. I am going to be kind here and break it down for you. The reason people have been annoyed with you is because you came in with a strong opinion on something you don't know much about. Said opinion belittled the people who enjoy good beer and likened them to sheep. There are a lot of enthusiasts on this board and there is quite a lot f accumulated knowledge of beers, brewing, distribution and the like. Instead of coming in with humbleness from you lack of knowledge you came in arrogant and uniformed. A dangerous combo. Had you asked for help you could have been guided in a way that would allow you to acquire beers that would satisfy you. Instead you ignore anyone's advice to prove some theory you came up with from a succinct lack of knowledge on the subject.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Being humble and asking for advice from those who know more on a subject is a good thing. I've been on chowhound for a long time and learned a lot on various food and beverage related topics. Josh, Tripeler and others on the beer board are very knowledgeable regarding the subject at hand. I've learned a lot from them. I've learned a lot from people like Silverjay and Lau regarding Japanese and Chinese food. It's good to let others with more experience guide you. It's not good to come up with some half cocked thesis and fight tooth and nail to prove it despite massive evidence to the contrary.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I am saying this with peace and love. This is a serious message.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: MVNYC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "Said opinion belittled the people who enjoy good beer and likened them to sheep."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I had stated the people here are not in the market population of what may have been referred to as 'sheep'. I said that not in riddle, I actually stated it overtly.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            But I totally understand this...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            One the other hand, allowing one to look at the negative aspects of the topic at hand, should, if executed correctly, endear the true enthusiasts to see that there may be something to some of what I have posted.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I just prior to seeing your comment above, wrote the following to Insidious Rex, with gratitude to all :

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This is an analysis of the market, for a quesi-lay perspective, and a participatory perspective.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            There are important issues at hand such as the missing out of cultivating a taste for beer by some, who just dive head first into this 'craze'.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            And it is more than that, it is finding consistently or semi-consistent encounters like the Prima experience, and then being confused with all the 'hype'.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            So, deciding to get through the mesh of this interwoven phenomena of craft beer, I get help from MVNYC, Silverjay, JAB and others.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2. Folks, this thread is pretty unpleasant in a lot of places. If you don't like the OP, you aren't obligated to respond to him, but if you're going to respond, please do it without personal attacks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If the thread keeps popping back up on your profile and you just can't resist it, please consider hitting the yellow star to unfollow it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: The Chowhound Team

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The people that are getting unpleasant are mostly bringing it back to beer after a post or two. Besides, it would be impossible to not pick up on the fact jonkyo is eating this stuff up. Like him or hate him, the guy started a 300 post thread that has been amusing and has mostly stuck on topic (albeit somewhat repetitively). Very impressive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: RB Hound

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I give others credit. It is a dialectic of sorts, in the Hegelian manner.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Last evening I began my craft night at BH Burger. That was a Cornhusk Lager. Tasty.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                But I was avoiding Heartland Brewery, and now I discover HB Burger is a Heartland subsidy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "HB Burger (Heartland Brewery) Bar"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Then Coney Island Mermaid Pilsener, to keep it local, in Queens, where I lost tract of the names of the beers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I actually told the waitress, get me one that is not on the menu, from the taps...and do not tell me what it is. That place is a great, for when I entered they were playing Gang of Four, throwing me back to High Schools years, when I would listen to that and pound bud, Löwenbräu or Hamms.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Some of the IPAs are just too strong for my taste, and that was the case back in the Microbrew days.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                But unlike sticking to one brew, the mixing of beers all night, may have been the headache, slight as it was, the next day, today.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I woke still intoxicated. That is money well spent. That is the beauty of higher alcohol content. Just as the shamans years ago, it gets quite religious.