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Anyone else disgusted with dogs in restaurants?

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LOCKED DISCUSSION
sushidad May 18, 2014 04:42 PM

Went to Sam's @ Louis' for brunch. A patron was holding a lap dog inside the restaurant. I think this is offensive and potentially unhealthy. (Is this a violation of the health code?) In my opinion, restaurants are not a place to bring pets. Do others agree?

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  1. Allstonian RE: sushidad May 18, 2014 04:45 PM

    Why didn't you ask a staffer at the restaurant about this?

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      latindancer RE: sushidad May 18, 2014 04:48 PM

      All municipalities have their own codes.
      Where I live the code is becoming more and more jeopardized by those who know the law and have no problem breaking it.
      It's up to the proprietor to decide how/if they want to allow dogs. The law clearly states that the only dogs allowed are service dogs. The law also states the owner of the establishment cannot ask certain questions of the owner. If they word the question wrong they can also be threatened with a lawsuit from the owner of the dog.
      Therefore, more and more people are bringing their beloved animals along with them without a care in the world about those who are offended by them.
      The law states the proprietor can ask to see their 'permit'. All the offender has to do is say they left it at home and the proprietor has to trust they have one.

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      1. re: latindancer
        jrvedivici RE: latindancer May 19, 2014 07:59 AM

        I forget what news show it was on but I recently read there is a whole black market of service dog paraphernalia for this purpose. Things included "Service Dog" vests and accompaniments to adorn your dog in to make them look "official". All for people that just want to bring their dog's with them that obviously they don't belong.

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        1. re: jrvedivici
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          latindancer RE: jrvedivici May 19, 2014 08:37 AM

          Even with all the paraphernalia, as you've described, it's not too hard to notice which dog is a service dog and which dog is just a pet whose owner finds it emotionally impossible to leave them at home. I love my rescue but I wouldn't in a billion years impose her presence on another's space…in the slightest possibility someone may not like or be allergic to her.
          A service dog is a working dog….they're highly trained companions. The majority of time they're not allowed to be touched by a stranger…their owner is very protective and the dog there to work and protect, not visit.
          Service dogs don't jump up on my leg when they're working in a a restaurant or market.

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          1. re: latindancer
            monkeyrotica RE: latindancer May 19, 2014 10:03 AM

            And yet I haven't read of any crackdown on fake service dogs. This seems to be big in California, but I suppose it's only a matter of time before it migrates east, like appletinis and cocaine. I suppose it's just the canine version of fake handicapped plates for people suffering from mycousinthedoctor syndrome.

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            1. re: monkeyrotica
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              GH1618 RE: monkeyrotica May 19, 2014 01:02 PM

              The California legislature is beginning to look into the problem of service dog scofflaws.

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            2. re: latindancer
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              rasputina RE: latindancer May 19, 2014 05:57 PM

              Service dogs don't have magical properties that make their dander not cause allergic reactions.

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              1. re: rasputina
                mcf RE: rasputina May 19, 2014 06:06 PM

                No, but one is much less likely to encounter one if only legit ones are admitted places.

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                1. re: rasputina
                  greygarious RE: rasputina May 19, 2014 07:13 PM

                  The blind and wheelchair-bound and other physically disabled people helped by service dogs shouldn't be allowed out in public because you don't take your antihistamines? Talk about a sense of entitlement!

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                  1. re: greygarious
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                    bachchick RE: greygarious May 19, 2014 11:31 PM

                    Nobody is questioning actual service dogs for the blind or otherwise disabled. The problem is the illegitimate proliferation of dogs everywhere because people take advantage of the loose interpretation of service dogs. Furthermore, antihistamines are not enough to protect people with severe allergies from serious complications.

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                    1. re: bachchick
                      monavano RE: bachchick May 20, 2014 04:26 AM

                      Nobody is questioning actual service dogs for the blind or otherwise disabled.
                      *********
                      Oh yes, they are here!!!!!!!
                      NO DOGS ANYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!
                      I MIGHT SNEEZE!!!!!!!!
                      OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

                      AND WHILE I'M AT IT, NO TREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!

                      ANYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                      THEY SHED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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                      1. re: bachchick
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                        HoosierFoodie RE: bachchick May 20, 2014 07:46 AM

                        I agree but I'm not sure about a solution. A "legitimate" service dog doesn't have any more or less dander than a "illegitimate" service dog. So what do you do with a seeing eye dog on an airplane? In that enclosed environment a dog allergy would be much more severe than in a building.

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                        1. re: HoosierFoodie
                          monavano RE: HoosierFoodie May 20, 2014 08:01 AM

                          A helpful solution is to bathe the dog before it goes on a plane, or into a hospice/hospital/nursing home.
                          I know I'll be doing that when I eventually (fingers crossed!) take my dog places to be a canine companion.

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                          1. re: monavano
                            PhilD RE: monavano May 20, 2014 03:22 PM

                            Is anyone really that allergic to a dog in a large open room or even in a space like an aircraft? I have never heard of any major issues - it's not like a nut allergy with the risk of anaphylactic shock as you are not eating the poor dog....!

                            I am allergic to dogs, cats, horses etc. but no issues being in the same room, I don't touch them, or allow them to sit on me. I really can't understand this as an issue.

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                            1. re: PhilD
                              monavano RE: PhilD May 20, 2014 03:35 PM

                              I'm allergic to cats, and must wash my hands after petting, or else I get red bumps if I touch my face.
                              That said, I can be near them.
                              Being in a dander/fur-filled house would get problematic, tho.

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                              1. re: monavano
                                PhilD RE: monavano May 20, 2014 04:52 PM

                                Same here, especially as cats tend to come in packs in cat lovers homes and like to curl up on the pillows of those most allergic - they are evil creatures that have a sixth sense that allows them to torment us - but thats very different to a few dogs in a large restaurant.... ;-)

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                                1. re: PhilD
                                  John E. RE: PhilD May 20, 2014 06:24 PM

                                  Did you miss the video of the family cat who saved a 4-year old boy when he was attacked by the neighbor's dog?

                                  http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg6fQAW3vz8

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                                  1. re: John E.
                                    PhilD RE: John E. May 20, 2014 08:37 PM

                                    Don't be fooled - a warrior from the Cat Empire simply showed their true colours - they are the dominant species - just bidding their time. Dogs beware!

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                                    1. re: PhilD
                                      chartreauxx RE: PhilD May 20, 2014 09:12 PM

                                      they do, after all, have razors for feet...

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                                    2. re: John E.
                                      coll RE: John E. May 21, 2014 04:02 AM

                                      And today's follow up....this cat is getting more than his 15 minutes of (well deserved!) fame

                                      http://msn.foxsports.com/buzzer/story...

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                                    3. re: PhilD
                                      coll RE: PhilD May 21, 2014 03:56 AM

                                      Today's fun fact: I just read recently that cats don't like people that look directly at them, as it's a sign of aggression or dominance to them. That's why they always go to the people who don't like them, because they don't look directly at them.

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                                      1. re: coll
                                        monavano RE: coll May 21, 2014 03:58 AM

                                        Many dogs, too.
                                        It's a no-no, but heck if people don't approach strange dogs and get right into their face, "booboobooboo".

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                                        1. re: coll
                                          greygarious RE: coll May 21, 2014 10:56 AM

                                          Direct staring is a challenge throughout the mammal kingdom, though not necessarily signalling aggression, it's a claim of dominance. When I was a zoo guide, we always told visitors not to look the primates in the eye as it unsettled them. Even with your own adoring dog, who may gaze into your eyes with all his heart - try staring at him unblinkingly, without any facial expression, or speaking. He'll quickly avert his eyes. If he doesn't, he may be the type of dog who wants to dominate his owner and needs ongoing reinforcement of basic obedience training. My cat experience is mostly with Siamese and their offshoot breeds. They are more people-oriented than most cats; I've known a number of them who loved nothing better than gazing into their owners' eyes.

                                          I once attended a vegetarian dinner held by a humane society. Somewhat incongruously, the guest of honor was a wolf named Shaman. He was a juvenile in training to be the outreach rep of a local wolf sanctuary.
                                          The handler explained that while you'd think a meek wolf would be the best for this, in fact it's the job for an alpha. He has to be VERY confident in order to remain calm in strange and changing environments. At the end of the meal, Shaman was allowed to roam the room, trailing the heavy chain that was his "leash". After climbing onto a table to wolf down (yup) a dinner roll, he meandered over to me, and made eye contact. This was years before I learned about what staring means to animals. He looked straight into my eyes, out the back of my head, as I returned the eye contact. I wasn't scared, but I *was* transfixed. This was not a dog looking at me; it was pure life-force. It seemed like time stood still but was probably not more than 30 seconds before he moved off and purloined a cupcake.

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                                          1. re: greygarious
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                                            latindancer RE: greygarious May 21, 2014 05:06 PM

                                            <needs ongoing reinforcement of basic obedience training>

                                            Interesting, but not across the board always the case.
                                            My dog (female rescue and old) has had intensive, extensive obedience training by a very good trainer.
                                            She's very well trained.
                                            She's lovable, trainable and follows commands.
                                            She stares me down all the time…
                                            I'm the one who usually looks away as I could be there for hours staring….am I the one who needs the obedience training?

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                                            1. re: latindancer
                                              monavano RE: latindancer May 21, 2014 05:10 PM

                                              My dogs stare when they want something- food or potty.
                                              I'm able to hold a loving gaze with them, too.

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                                              1. re: monavano
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                                                latindancer RE: monavano May 21, 2014 05:24 PM

                                                I'd give just about anything to know what's going on in her head when she does it.
                                                It's certainly a loving connection for me :-).

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                                            2. re: greygarious
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                                              Hobbert RE: greygarious May 21, 2014 05:21 PM

                                              Huh. My cat stares at me then blinks slowly and falls down. Conclusion: I control him with my mind.

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                                              1. re: Hobbert
                                                chartreauxx RE: Hobbert May 21, 2014 05:26 PM

                                                slow blinks from cats are the kitty equivalent of a kiss :-)

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                                                1. re: chartreauxx
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                                                  Hobbert RE: chartreauxx May 21, 2014 07:40 PM

                                                  Cool!

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                                                2. re: Hobbert
                                                  John E. RE: Hobbert May 21, 2014 07:55 PM

                                                  My kid was interviewing my 82 year old father about life during The Great Depression. (Video camera going too.)

                                                  Off camera, the cat was licking herself and tipped over twice. I laughed both times and got the 'what?' each time.

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                                                3. re: greygarious
                                                  EM23 RE: greygarious May 21, 2014 05:23 PM

                                                  Well, everyone loves a cupcake:)
                                                  But seriously, that must have been an tremendous experience. Lucky you.

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                                          2. re: PhilD
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                                            masha RE: PhilD May 20, 2014 05:16 PM

                                            Phil, my husband is sufficiently allergic to dogs and cats that he does sneeze and get asthmatic when they are merely in a carrier stowed under his seat or the seat in front of a person sitting next to him on planes. This has occurred in situations where he did not even know there was a pet on board until he starting sneezing and wheezing. Fortunately the flight attendant has always been able to reseat the passenger with pet.

                                            I am not trying to suggest that his allergies trump the need of a handicapped person with a service dog. But it is an issue. (And really not surprising given the poor air circulation on planes.)

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                                            1. re: masha
                                              PhilD RE: masha May 20, 2014 05:23 PM

                                              I don't doubt it causes people to sneeze but is it really serious? I assume it's similar to hay fever - if you are that allergic then an inhaler puts it right quickly, and like hay fever its tricky to exclude animals from everywhere you go.

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                                              1. re: PhilD
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                                                masha RE: PhilD May 20, 2014 06:38 PM

                                                The only effective medication in his case are antihistamines that make him quite drowsy (the non-drowsy ones don't work for him). They pretty much knock him out, which is ok if he did not plan to work on the plane or drive a car on arrival at the other end. Of course he takes them when there is no alternative. My point above was just to respond to the suggestion that there are no ill effects so long as you don't touch the animal; maybe for you, but not him.

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                                                1. re: masha
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                                                  EAH RE: masha May 22, 2014 01:09 AM

                                                  I feel for your husband - I have allergies to cats,dogs,horses,guinea pigs etc.....as well as trees,weeds,grass, most pollen bearing flowers, fragrances, several medications,corn,yeast,wheat,soy,and dairy. I actually break out in hives fairly regularly and take my emergency inhaler everywhere.I own all of the above mentioned animals because I value my sanity and happiness. Both of which they ensure. I wonder, as someone who is around pets and their owners- I find we often "wear" them on our clothes even when they are not around. Just as I cannot ask someone to refrain from wearing perfume while I dine out, I don't "de-fur" myself while in public places......frankly I probably have as much dander on me as my pets do!
                                                  How does your husband deal with this situation?
                                                  I am keeping Benedryl in business -it's small price to pay for the joy and health benefits ( low blood pressure, mandatory exercise etc) my pets bring me.

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                                                  1. re: EAH
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                                                    masha RE: EAH May 22, 2014 11:35 AM

                                                    We have no pets and he tries to minimize exposure to others'. Our friends and family members with cats and dogs know of his allergies, and are considerate enough to thoroughly vacuum carpets and upholstered furniture before we visit, and keep the pets away from him during the visit. He will often try to sit on unupholstered furniture or, if weather permits, outside where the elements can be relied upon to wash away any dog or cat dander. (I'm the one allergic to pollens, etc, not him.) If necessary, he takes an antihistamine while he is there. If it's a dinner party, he fights to stay awake; if we are houseguests, he promptly takes a nap. I too do not pet the animals so as not to transfer dander from me to him. And, when we get home, everything goes in the wash immediately.

                                                    He only developed these allergies in his late teens. Before that, he grew up with cats and really liked dogs too. No animus towards either; just realizes that he feels much better if he avoids them.

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                                                    1. re: masha
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                                                      James Cristinian RE: masha May 22, 2014 11:48 AM

                                                      A friend of mine has pet allergies and badly wanted to watch a college football game, he not having cable at the time. He knew about my cat, but since I had an unused bedroom that we kept closed and the cat never went in, we gave it a shot. I moved a TV, split the cable signal and ran coax cable, hoping we'd have an enjoyable male bonding, beer swilling, college football game. Poor fellow didn't last a minute.

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                                                      1. re: James Cristinian
                                                        jw615 RE: James Cristinian May 22, 2014 12:57 PM

                                                        The problem with cat allergies is that the most common cat allergen is so small in particle size that it doesn't weigh enough to settle out of the air. So if you have any ventilation in your house, it doesn't matter where in the house the pet is, it all gets circulated around.

                                                        I really wish this wasn't the case. I really feel like I am a cat person, and would love one, but my allergies are too severe.

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                                                        1. re: James Cristinian
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                                                          cleobeach RE: James Cristinian May 24, 2014 03:10 PM

                                                          We have Siamese which are considered to be the least likely to cause allergic reactions (something to do with being single coated) and a new friend of ours had to leave our house within 5 minutes of arriving. We have all hardwood floors and leather furniture so it wasn't like there was tons of cat dander lurking about.

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                                                          1. re: cleobeach
                                                            monavano RE: cleobeach May 24, 2014 03:11 PM

                                                            Isn't the saliva the trigger?

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                                              2. re: PhilD
                                                mcf RE: PhilD May 20, 2014 05:24 PM

                                                But you will if they've been on or in contact with your restaurant seat.

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                                                1. re: mcf
                                                  PhilD RE: mcf May 20, 2014 06:08 PM

                                                  Only if I take my trousers off - hopefully not the new hip thing to do ;-)

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                                                  1. re: PhilD
                                                    mcf RE: PhilD May 20, 2014 06:18 PM

                                                    Dust, hair, fur, dander go airborne, they don't just lay there.

                                                    But nice touch not dropping trou.

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                                                2. re: PhilD
                                                  LMAshton RE: PhilD May 21, 2014 02:20 AM

                                                  I was involved in a similar conversation on another forum about a month back. A couple of people cited allergies to dogs that can result in anaphylaxis. They carry epipens with them just in case. So, yes, as it turns out, dog allergies can be that severe.

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                                                  1. re: LMAshton
                                                    mcf RE: LMAshton May 21, 2014 07:36 AM

                                                    Any allergy can be that severe. Some more commonly than others, but any can depending on the individual.

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                                                  2. re: PhilD
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                                                    jlhinwa RE: PhilD May 21, 2014 09:48 PM

                                                    Yes, I am. I take antihistamines and use an inhaler every day but I am still sensitive to certain allergens. Some are far worse than others, and within a species such as dogs, some breeds bother me much more than other breeds.

                                                    At my office, there is a woman who had a small chihuahua named Cujo, which was hysterical because it maybe weighs six pounds soaking wet. This woman would bring Cujo to the office with her and let him run around. He was very well-behaved and uncommonly quiet for his breed. More than once, I had a violent sneezing attack accompanied by itching eyes and throat, only to find out that Cujo was lurking around in my immediate work area. I had to tell that woman(an independent contractor who came and went as needed, whereas I, a full-time employee am expected to work a normal schedule) that if she continued to bring him to the office, she would either have to do my work for me or explain to our boss why I had to leave the office abruptly. She was a total snot about it...couldn't believe that her little tiny darling could affect me that way.

                                                    As it relates to service animals, if they are trained and providing a legitimate service animal function, they are most likely providing a service for someone whose health status (physical or mental) requires a companion animal. Their medical status is going to trump my status as a more or less normal and healthy adult so I accept and support the idea that I can and should suck it up so their needs are met.

                                                    On the other hand, I resent being unnecessarily exposed to allergens because entitled people think their animal is just so special and precious that their need to enjoy its company trumps the consideration of others, whether they be highly allergic people like me, or people who have an irrational fear of animals, or something similar.

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                                                    1. re: jlhinwa
                                                      PhilD RE: jlhinwa May 21, 2014 10:16 PM

                                                      I am still far from convinced that dogs can really serious allergic reactions that could lead to anaphylactic shock.

                                                      I searched the internet and couldn't find any reference to it. I get anaphylactic reactions to ingested allergens like nuts, I get the extremely rare reactions to horses (they are far bigger than dogs).

                                                      I recognise people are allergic to animals, especially if they touch them, but equally people are just as allergic to pollen so flowers and trees are equally problematic. Do people get anaphylactic shock from flowers?

                                                      I am not denying people are allergic (i am myself) but lets keep a bit of perspective - as far as I can tell its far, far from anything remotely life threatening. I am happy to be directed to a source that says otherwise. But hardly a reason to ban dogs from public spaces.......

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                                                      1. re: PhilD
                                                        sunshine842 RE: PhilD May 22, 2014 03:44 AM

                                                        The folks in this post mention hives and the necessity for inhalers and epipens, so the diagnosis obviously included one or more medical professionals -- i.e., highly likely to be genuine, not faked or some flight of fancy.

                                                        Compassion is a wonderful thing.

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                                                        1. re: PhilD
                                                          mcf RE: PhilD May 22, 2014 07:41 AM

                                                          Rare reactions to horses??? Horse dander is one of the most potent antigens out there. Very common to react to it.

                                                          Folks commonly get constitutional symptoms from congention to hives from dog allergies, convincing you is NOT their priority, preventing increasing severity of symptoms is. Any time all those are present, escalation is possible.

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                                                          1. re: mcf
                                                            PhilD RE: mcf May 22, 2014 03:45 PM

                                                            Sorry meant anaphylactic reaction to horses - I agree allergy to horses is common and from what I read it is the one animal that is documented to actually cause anaphylaxis - albeit very rarely.

                                                            I was raising the question about the true severity of allergies in the context of dogs in restaurants. We have seen the over reaction of places like baseball stadiums and peanut allergies. God help us if we start to see dog bans from public based on similar scare stories.

                                                            I am allergic to many animals and especially allergic to horses with hives, breathing issues etc etc. (and I can get asthma) so I am not ignorant about the effects of allergies. So I avoid horses, keeping my distance from them and not going to stables, I don't pat dogs and cats etc. but if I go to a friends house who has pets I simply take an inhaler in case I get any discomfort, and dogs in large rooms (restaurants) have never caused me an issue.

                                                            So when I read comments about extreme symptoms, mention of anaphylaxis etc I think it's good to ask questions to ascertain if it's true. Look up anaphylaxis and dogs and the references I find are about dogs which are allergic and can get reactions....I found nothing about people.

                                                            It would be good to read more - grateful for any references. In the mean time I remain skeptical and think its an exaggeration.

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                                                            1. re: PhilD
                                                              mcf RE: PhilD May 22, 2014 05:27 PM

                                                              Whatever floats your boat.

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                                                          2. re: PhilD
                                                            jw615 RE: PhilD May 22, 2014 01:00 PM

                                                            Even if it isn't an anaphylactic reactions, allergens can trigger asthma attacks, which can be deadly.

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                                                            1. re: PhilD
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                                                              Toots4120 RE: PhilD May 24, 2014 04:22 AM

                                                              Why must you be convinced of the health issues of others? Seems to me it's one of those things that one accepts as possible - even if it doesn't apply to you. Because it might be unusual certainly doesn't make it impossible. And "keeping a bit of perspective" - easy for you to say!

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                                                              1. re: Toots4120
                                                                PhilD RE: Toots4120 May 24, 2014 04:37 PM

                                                                Toots - why must I be convinced? Well only if someone uses a alleged health issue to limit others freedoms seems a good starting point. We should all be wary of people exaggerating health issues if they have an impact on the welfare and enjoyment of others.

                                                                As someone who has allergies, to tree nuts, dogs, cats horses etc etc I think I have a reasonably good perspective on the issue. I have had anaphylactic reactions requiring medical treatment so I have some understanding of the issue.

                                                                I really do understand that if you eat something or have something injected (drugs and insect stings) you can get an anaphylactic reaction. I understand some people have reactions to latex, and very, very rarely there are cases of anaphylactic reactions to horses.

                                                                But to extrapolate that all allergies can become anaphylactic is a big big stretch. If you follow that logic we will cut down forests, pave over grass etc etc to get rid of the nasty pollens.

                                                                There are lots of half truths in the mass of information that swirls around the medical industry. We really should be vigilant to call out the more far fetched ones if they are used as reasons to affect personal freedoms.

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                                                                1. re: PhilD
                                                                  mcf RE: PhilD May 24, 2014 05:01 PM

                                                                  "But to extrapolate that all allergies can become anaphylactic is a big big stretch. If you follow that logic we will cut down forests, pave over grass etc etc to get rid of the nasty pollens."

                                                                  Yeah, there's a lot of call for that as an alternative to highly effective 12 weeks of allergy desensitization. I mean, it's been in the news non stop, right?

                                                                  Oh, waitaminute...

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                                                                  1. re: mcf
                                                                    PhilD RE: mcf May 24, 2014 07:13 PM

                                                                    So nothing in the news about this.....mmmh. Wonder why, could it be it's not an issue...?

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                                                                    1. re: PhilD
                                                                      mcf RE: PhilD May 25, 2014 08:10 AM

                                                                      To YOU.

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                                                                      1. re: PhilD
                                                                        sunshine842 RE: PhilD May 25, 2014 08:54 AM

                                                                        because no, the press has never ignored something and opted to run with something that is truly unimportant.

                                                                        (the Kim and Kanye wedding, anyone)

                                                                        The fact that it's not covered in the press doesn't negate its existence, nor does the fact that it's a statistically insignificant number -- it's *VERY* significant for those so afflicted.

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                                                                    2. re: PhilD
                                                                      sunshine842 RE: PhilD May 24, 2014 05:44 PM

                                                                      If you yourself have had an anaphylactic reaction, then why, oh why would you doubt someone else's reaction?

                                                                      What would you say if someone doubted that you had, indeed, had an anaphylactic reaction?

                                                                      What makes you qualify for anaphylactic reactions, but not someone else?

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                                                                      1. re: sunshine842
                                                                        PhilD RE: sunshine842 May 24, 2014 07:32 PM

                                                                        Maybe because I suffer I take more interest in it and thus question the odd claims especially when used to justify things that impact others.

                                                                        I don't care if people believe I have allergies or not. It's my personal responsibility to take precautions. I don't go near horses, I don't eat nuts. But I have no need to ban nuts from restaurants or horses from public spaces.

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                                                                      2. re: PhilD
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                                                                        LexiFirefly RE: PhilD May 25, 2014 05:53 AM

                                                                        A woman in the suburbs of my city proposed this...
                                                                        http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2012/...

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                                                                        1. re: LexiFirefly
                                                                          monavano RE: LexiFirefly May 25, 2014 06:31 AM

                                                                          Oh
                                                                          Em
                                                                          Gee

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                                                                          1. re: LexiFirefly
                                                                            foodieX2 RE: LexiFirefly May 25, 2014 06:38 AM

                                                                            LMAO. Seriously? I was joking in this thread about asking the state to remove all the goldenrod in the state park near my home. That woman isn't just a helicopter parent she is a stealth black hawk fighter pilot parent!

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                                                                            1. re: foodieX2
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                                                                              LexiFirefly RE: foodieX2 May 25, 2014 06:54 AM

                                                                              My SO and I wondered why anyone would bully her TEENAGE children. Nope I just don't see it.

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                                                                              1. re: LexiFirefly
                                                                                foodieX2 RE: LexiFirefly May 25, 2014 07:25 AM

                                                                                So the article is from 2012, do you know what happened?

                                                                                And not to go to far OT, but bullying is very much alive and well in high schools. It often comes in the form of hazing as well as social ostracization. Compound that with FB, twitter etc and the bullying becomes even worse. Does that justify taking down oak trees? No. Taking them down won't stop bullying.

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                                                                                1. re: foodieX2
                                                                                  mcf RE: foodieX2 May 25, 2014 08:11 AM

                                                                                  Nor will it stop pollen from hundreds of miles around blowing in.

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                                                                                  1. re: foodieX2
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                                                                                    LexiFirefly RE: foodieX2 May 25, 2014 08:21 AM

                                                                                    She eventually withdrew her application to have the tree removed, a lot of people were not impressed with her concern. For the bullying aspect I was more thinking that her extreme helicopter parenting could be a factor in the teens being ostracized, sorry to go off topic!

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                                                                                    1. re: LexiFirefly
                                                                                      foodieX2 RE: LexiFirefly May 25, 2014 08:28 AM

                                                                                      Gotcha! And thanks for the update. I'm glad she pulled it. And something tells me she has moved onto petitioning for mother and son/daughter dorm rooms at colleges!

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                                                                              2. re: LexiFirefly
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                                                                                FriedClamFanatic RE: LexiFirefly May 25, 2014 07:28 AM

                                                                                I read the clipping. Supposedly the school is nut-free according to the article. Too bad the Town isn't

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                                                                                1. re: FriedClamFanatic
                                                                                  monavano RE: FriedClamFanatic May 25, 2014 08:43 AM

                                                                                  Oh snap!

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                                                                          2. re: PhilD
                                                                            LMAshton RE: PhilD May 24, 2014 04:53 AM

                                                                            You know, when a person tells me that they can possibly have an anaphylaxis reaction to being in the same room as a dog, I tend to believe them. I don't demand medical reports. Yeah, I haven't heard of it before, but so what?

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                                                                            1. re: LMAshton
                                                                              PhilD RE: LMAshton May 24, 2014 04:45 PM

                                                                              LM - you and I are obviously different. If someone tells me something that is patently wrong I tend to question them. If nothing else they may be avoiding dogs in the mistaken belief they are dangerous to their health rather than causing discomfort. At worst they could advocate for banning dogs/animals from all sorts of places for very spurious reasons.

                                                                              Just because someone believes something, or has extrapolated allergy to mean there is always a risk of anaphylaxis doesn't make them right. The allergy industry its associated lobby groups are a weird phenommena which does have a real impact on many people i.e. causing them to worry and be stressed when they don't need to (and shouldn't we care about that?)

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                                                                              1. re: PhilD
                                                                                mcf RE: PhilD May 24, 2014 05:01 PM

                                                                                It's nunnayourbidness.

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                                                                                1. re: mcf
                                                                                  PhilD RE: mcf May 24, 2014 07:16 PM

                                                                                  Personal medical issues are none of my business. Exaggerated medical issues that restrict everyone else's freedoms are.

                                                                                  I really don't get thus uncritical acceptance of any medical claim - why is questioning something that sounds wrong so emotional?

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                                                                                  1. re: PhilD
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                                                                                    James Cristinian RE: PhilD May 24, 2014 07:34 PM

                                                                                    I work retail and am on my feet most of the time. I ruptured my Achilles tendon stepping in a hole at 4 am on the way to a major work day. After 9 weeks in a boot, 5 on crutches it flared up 6 weeks later. I was accused of milking it. Yeah, milking it, that's why I spent 100 dollars for two co-pay visits after the injury and had to put the boot on for another month, me the guy that showed up the Sunday after Thanksgiving for re-pricing a big store with the blown out Achilles.

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                                                                                    1. re: James Cristinian
                                                                                      PhilD RE: James Cristinian May 24, 2014 07:47 PM

                                                                                      James - and the relevance of this to dogs in restaurants is?

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                                                                                    2. re: PhilD
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                                                                                      rasputina RE: PhilD May 25, 2014 07:57 AM

                                                                                      Wait, assuming someone is abusing the animal assistance laws is fine but inflating possible allergic risk is none of your business?

                                                                                      This thread has taken an interesting turn.

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                                                                                      1. re: PhilD
                                                                                        mcf RE: PhilD May 25, 2014 08:15 AM

                                                                                        Because you make stuff up not in evidence. And anyone with hard to understand medical history can tell you how much physical and emotional suffering and even terror comes from such attitudes.

                                                                                        Whether or not you're truly allergic is no business of anyone here; it's not like some sort of credential.

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                                                                                    3. re: PhilD
                                                                                      LMAshton RE: PhilD May 24, 2014 05:38 PM

                                                                                      So you would, what, demand a certificate from their doctor? What other kind of proof would you require?

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                                                                                      1. re: LMAshton
                                                                                        PhilD RE: LMAshton May 24, 2014 07:18 PM

                                                                                        Only if they wanted to ban dogs from a public place. I have no interest in their personal beliefs if they don't affect others. Unfortunately spurious medical conditions are used to justify lots of things and if they are they must be fair game to challenge.

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                                                                                      2. re: PhilD
                                                                                        LMAshton RE: PhilD May 24, 2014 05:46 PM

                                                                                        I have a friend who is highly allergic to rubbing alcohol. And yet, despite this being on her chart and despite her telling every nurse and doctor who might use it around her, she *still* has nurses who apply it to her skin before a needle because "it's just a little bit". And she winds up in anaphylaxis. Because those people didn't believe her that it could be that serious.

                                                                                        Would you use rubbing alcohol around her because rubbing alcohol is not widely accepted as an allergy that could lead to anaphylaxis? Or would you consider that as ridiculous as well since it's not widely documented?

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                                                                                        1. re: LMAshton
                                                                                          mcf RE: LMAshton May 24, 2014 06:30 PM

                                                                                          For freak's sake; I know someone (who turned out to have mast cell activation disorder or mastocytosis undiagnosed) who was in a constant state of anaphylaxis and at one point, even plain water elicited the reaction before it was treated.

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                                                                                          1. re: mcf
                                                                                            sunshine842 RE: mcf May 24, 2014 07:09 PM

                                                                                            but no, it can't be real because PhilD doesn't believe in it.

                                                                                            You can't *fake* anaphylaxis, and if you're carrying an epipen, then there's at least one medical professional out there (involved in the initial treatment of the anaphylaxis, diagnosis of the allergy, and the followup prescription for the epipen) who is convinced that the allergy is serious enough a threat to the patient's lfie that the epipen is necessary...thus I'll take someone's statement that their allergy is anaphylaxis-serious at face value and believe them 100%.

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                                                                                            1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                              PhilD RE: sunshine842 May 24, 2014 07:44 PM

                                                                                              I am not saying Anaphylaxis isn't real. But I question if pet allergies really cause it. Because if they do there is a really scary lack of literature out there.

                                                                                              Do you really know of anyone who has been prescribed an epi pen for a pet allergy, pollen or dust allergy?

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                                                                                              1. re: PhilD
                                                                                                LMAshton RE: PhilD May 24, 2014 11:33 PM

                                                                                                I do.

                                                                                                The question is, will you believe me?

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                                                                                                1. re: PhilD
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                                                                                                  EAH RE: PhilD May 25, 2014 02:44 AM

                                                                                                  Okay- I'll bite.
                                                                                                  As I stated earlier in this thread, I suffer from severe allergies to animals, food, medicines and nature
                                                                                                  (trees,flowering plants, grass, weeds, mold etc). However, it is more severe than most typical allergies.

                                                                                                  I was diagnosed with Mastocytosis back in 1992 and have reoccurring serious flare ups of it (aka urticaria pigmentosa). By the way- Mastocytosis does not automatically cause an anaphylactic response- mine was diagnosed with chronic hives, asthma, and finally Uticaria Pigmentosa. I have been on continuous rounds of steroids and have at all times 2 Epi Pens on me as well as my emergency inhaler.I take my allergy meds daily.
                                                                                                  I have done shots, drops etc. Finally my allergist suggested that my pet allergies would most likely IMPROVE with my exposure to my pets......which they have.... as my tolerance has built up.
                                                                                                  To date-after 25 years of UP the only allergies that have caused me to go into severe asthma attacks or close to anaphylaxis are : Iodine, contrast dyes, medicines
                                                                                                  (Chloroprep,betadine, penicillin,CCB's or Sulpha) or believe it or not the worst for me: dust mites.

                                                                                                  My animal allergies are the LEAST of my problems. Sure, I hive up and itch once in a while, but mostly its the saliva that causes it, not the hair.

                                                                                                  A while ago I had a serious discussion with my allergist wherein I contemplated eradicating
                                                                                                  ALL allergens from my life.
                                                                                                  I was informed by my allergist that it was SO uncommon for pet allergies to cause anaphylaxis that he had never heard of a case.
                                                                                                  I have to agree with PhilD-

                                                                                                  People who simply dislike dogs are probably the most guilty of playing the allergy card.

                                                                                                  And before you jump on me- go ahead and re read my post. I suffer from a HYPER ALLERGIC RESPONSE and have been under the continual care of a highly regarded allergist in the UC System for almost 25 years. I am undoubtably more qualified than most on this thread to know of
                                                                                                  where I speak.
                                                                                                  Those of you who are so disgusted by those who would fake their pets service credentials as it infringes on others freedoms should be just as appalled by those who would fake the severity of their allergies to pets thus imposing on others freedoms.

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                                                                                                  1. re: EAH
                                                                                                    mcf RE: EAH May 25, 2014 08:18 AM

                                                                                                    "Those of you who are so disgusted by those who would fake their pets service credentials as it infringes on others freedoms should be just as appalled by those who would fake the severity of their allergies to pets thus imposing on others freedoms."

                                                                                                    I'm almost 60; I've never known anyone to do this. Maybe if I live long enough...

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                                                                                                  2. re: PhilD
                                                                                                    sunshine842 RE: PhilD May 25, 2014 08:57 AM

                                                                                                    there's several folks right here on this very board.

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                                                                                                2. re: mcf
                                                                                                  PhilD RE: mcf May 24, 2014 07:37 PM

                                                                                                  Mcf - And the relevance of this rare but serious condition to someone who is simply allergic to dogs?

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                                                                                                  1. re: PhilD
                                                                                                    mcf RE: PhilD May 25, 2014 08:19 AM

                                                                                                    That there is a whole huge spectrum of allergic disorder between mere allergy, over active mast cells and frank mastocytosis and all that it involves that you may think is fake, or made up anaphylaxis but is quite real.

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                                                                                                  2. re: mcf
                                                                                                    LMAshton RE: mcf May 24, 2014 11:32 PM

                                                                                                    Yeah, mastocytosis sucks rocks. Huge rocks.

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                                                                                                    1. re: LMAshton
                                                                                                      mcf RE: LMAshton May 25, 2014 08:20 AM

                                                                                                      It's extremely life limiting, from sunlight intolerance to eating almost no proteins and very few other foods than rice, very unhealthy on so many levels.

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                                                                                                  3. re: LMAshton
                                                                                                    PhilD RE: LMAshton May 24, 2014 07:36 PM

                                                                                                    Well that is a bit weird as allergies to isopropyl alcohol are well documented. It's one of the reasons people can be allergic to perfumes and cosmetics.

                                                                                                    However, allergies don't equal anaphylactic shock. Did you friend get shot up with adrenaline and steroids each time this happened.....?

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                                                                                                    1. re: PhilD
                                                                                                      LMAshton RE: PhilD May 24, 2014 11:34 PM

                                                                                                      So you want me to get her medical treatment notes?

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                                                                                                      1. re: PhilD
                                                                                                        sunshine842 RE: PhilD May 25, 2014 09:01 AM

                                                                                                        Dismissing someone's medical condition without having examined the patient and their records would be considered highly unethical for a medical professional.

                                                                                                        What, exactly, are your medical qualifications that allow you to dismiss these issues out of hand?

                                                                                                        You skipped over my comment that it's impossible to fae allergic and anaphylactic reactions....how is it that you explain these symptoms if it's fake?

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                                                                                                        1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                          PhilD RE: sunshine842 May 25, 2014 04:48 PM

                                                                                                          Agree you can't fake it but there are lots of people who assume they suffer from things and talk about them who don't. A bad allergic reaction isn't necessarily an anaphylactic one. You can get hives, laboured breathing and hot itchy skin but it's not anaphylaxis. And the symptoms recede naturally over time.

                                                                                                          Self reported illness is notoriously unreliable especially if people are propping up arguments. Patients are prescribed drugs for good and bad reasons. Think about the issues or antibiotic resistance resulting from the over prescription of antibiotics as an example. EpiPens are very well marketed and very widely prescribed - it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect some doctors may prescribe them to placate irrational fears rather than for good therapeutic reasons.

                                                                                                          I have still to read anything that says pet allergies (apart from horses) have/can cause anaphylactic shock. I read one paper which postulated it could have been a cause but the allergist thought it unlikely. Many anaphylactic reactions are idiopathic, it's a bit like food poisoning with the last thing eaten getting the blame, rather than a fully tested and identified trigger. So there is a bit of mystery.

                                                                                                          But as I said in another post if per allergies are potentially so lethal (via anaphylaxis rather than asthma) why do so many pet owners continue to keep their pets - I think about 30% of pet owners have allergies. People allergic to nuts don't take risks because they like the taste....?

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                                                                                                          1. re: PhilD
                                                                                                            mcf RE: PhilD May 25, 2014 05:02 PM

                                                                                                            " Many anaphylactic reactions are idiopathic,"

                                                                                                            Idiopathic is code for "you have something I don't believe in nor understand and won't take the time to investigate."

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                                                                                                            1. re: mcf
                                                                                                              monavano RE: mcf May 25, 2014 05:14 PM

                                                                                                              No, it means doctors by and large don't have powers of divination.

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                                                                                                    2. re: PhilD
                                                                                                      PhilD RE: PhilD May 24, 2014 08:44 PM

                                                                                                      And to add something else to reflect on. Lots of pet owners have allergies to their pets - I can't find the stats but it's a surprisingly high number.

                                                                                                      Contrast that with the number of people who suffer from nut allergies who deliberately eat nuts - my guess is zero.

                                                                                                      Now why is this? If pets were so risky for those with allergies, with a risk of anaphylaxis would anyone with an allergy own one?

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                                                                                                  4. re: PhilD
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                                                                                                    butterfly RE: PhilD May 25, 2014 07:03 PM

                                                                                                    If my son spends the night in a home with a dog or cat, he often ends up with a week-long cold that can develop into a case of bronchitis. If a dog licks him, he will break out in terrible hives. It's too bad, because we all love animals.

                                                                                                    His allergist has advised us to avoid all contact as much as possible, because his allergies are of the type that become more and more severe with exposure. She also says that antihistimines won't keep him from experiencing the bronchial effects of the allergy.

                                                                                                    We live in a country where dogs are allowed in a lot of restaurants. It's never been a big issue. We try to steer clear and most people keep their well-behaved dogs on a very short leash and don't let them interact with other patrons.

                                                                                                    The only problem we've ever really had was in California (San Francisco) where we seemed to be magnets for dogs running loose and being left to roam among tables unattended. For the first time, I sort of wished someone would crack down in favor of the humans.

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                                                                                                    1. re: butterfly
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                                                                                                      EAH RE: butterfly May 25, 2014 07:32 PM

                                                                                                      Yeah, NOT OKAY that they be roaming freely in a restaurant.
                                                                                                      Leashed and short one at that!

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                                                                                                      1. re: butterfly
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                                                                                                        rasputina RE: butterfly May 25, 2014 07:44 PM

                                                                                                        Colds are caused by virus's and cannot be transmitted to humans from dogs and cats. It sounds like what you are referring to could be allergic or non allergic rhinitis.

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                                                                                                        1. re: butterfly
                                                                                                          monavano RE: butterfly May 26, 2014 03:31 AM

                                                                                                          Hopefully, time will buffer the effects of dogs on your son.
                                                                                                          I know I tested (+) for dogs, and have 3 now!

                                                                                                          Cats are another story, though ;(

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                                                                                                    2. re: PhilD
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                                                                                                      bachchick RE: PhilD May 24, 2014 10:45 PM

                                                                                                      Yes! Some people are that allergic to dogs! Allergies vary in severity. Some people sneeze, some get asthma, some get sick and die. Being sympathetic to people who need service dogs is no excuse for being callous to people who are allergic to dogs.

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                                                                                                      1. re: bachchick
                                                                                                        PhilD RE: bachchick May 25, 2014 04:51 PM

                                                                                                        Who is being callous to people with allergies? I am very sympathetic - I am just saying I don't see any evidence of anaphalaxis as a result of a pet allergy.

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                                                                                                        1. re: PhilD
                                                                                                          sunshine842 RE: PhilD May 25, 2014 05:07 PM

                                                                                                          YOU don't have to see any evidence.

                                                                                                          The folks who suffer these allergies and their medical professionals are the only ones who need to see the evidence -- and as per my post just above, they obviously are satisfied with the evidence.

                                                                                                          YOU need to accept that it might just be real.

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                                                                                                          1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                            monavano RE: sunshine842 May 25, 2014 05:15 PM

                                                                                                            Perhaps you can provide data to reference?

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                                                                                                            1. re: monavano
                                                                                                              sunshine842 RE: monavano May 25, 2014 05:29 PM

                                                                                                              Perhaps you could, too?

                                                                                                              I can't be bothered because the fact that they have an epipen is enough evidence for me.

                                                                                                              I'm not a doctor, I'm not an allergist, and I don't consider myself entitled to nor qualified to make a judgement about someone else's medical records.

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                                                                                                              1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                monavano RE: sunshine842 May 25, 2014 05:32 PM

                                                                                                                Just asking a question.

                                                                                                                If the answer is no, just say so.

                                                                                                                I wasn't challenging you. I simply was curious and in no way was asking for anyone's medical records.

                                                                                                                If personal testimonial is rigorous enough for you, so be it.

                                                                                                                I tend to be more academic and appreciate scientific data.

                                                                                                                Oh well...

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                                                                                                                1. re: monavano
                                                                                                                  sunshine842 RE: monavano May 25, 2014 05:34 PM

                                                                                                                  I have zero motivation to provide research.

                                                                                                                  I have zero motivation to assume people AND their doctors are full of shit.

                                                                                                                  Why do you make that assumption?

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                                                                                                            2. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                              PhilD RE: sunshine842 May 25, 2014 05:17 PM

                                                                                                              Why can't I ask for evidence? If someone wants to ban pets from public areas (or cut down trees to eliminate acorns) I think its fair to ask for the documented evidence behind it rather than simply believe anecdotes.

                                                                                                              If it is such a common risk its not going to be difficult to produce the documented evidence is it.....?

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                                                                                                              1. re: PhilD
                                                                                                                sunshine842 RE: PhilD May 25, 2014 05:31 PM

                                                                                                                there are people on this thread who have replied that they indeed have these allergies.

                                                                                                                They have indicated that they are not obligated to share their personal medical history with a complete stranger over the internet. This is completely (and understandably) their right.

                                                                                                                Perhaps you could contact a university or research center to carry on this dogged search for a whack job.

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                                                                                                                1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                  PhilD RE: sunshine842 May 25, 2014 06:41 PM

                                                                                                                  I don't want any medical records and have no interest in them.

                                                                                                                  I would simply like to be pointed to some research literature or case studies on this subject. Given how pervasive pet allergies are, and how serious anaphylaxis is, there should be lots of it around.....I can't find it.

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                                                                                                                  1. re: PhilD
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                                                                                                                    FriedClamFanatic RE: PhilD May 25, 2014 07:03 PM

                                                                                                                    Once upon a time, this thread was about "disgusting" dogs in restaurants..now it has turned into a diatribe on ppl with allergies and idiots who push the service dog category to the max

                                                                                                                    Keep it on thread or it will go in the CH hopper.......there's other places for rants and raves

                                                                                                                    ACHOO!

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                                                                                                                    1. re: FriedClamFanatic
                                                                                                                      PhilD RE: FriedClamFanatic May 25, 2014 07:08 PM

                                                                                                                      FCF - well this part stems from claims that dogs should be banned from restaurants because people have allergies to them which could have an anaphylactic reaction. So its directly related.

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                                                                                                                    2. re: PhilD
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                                                                                                                      rasputina RE: PhilD May 25, 2014 07:41 PM

                                                                                                                      How dare you ask someone to support their outrage with actual peer reviewed studies LOL.

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                                                                                                                      1. re: rasputina
                                                                                                                        sunshine842 RE: rasputina May 25, 2014 09:00 PM

                                                                                                                        have any of you stopped to realize that the articles you seek just *might* be behind a pay or membership wall?

                                                                                                                        I'll agree that an allergy to animals of this severity is certainly rare, and so the research is probably quite limited, simply by the small sample size in existence..but unless you have access to every academic library that is published (many of which have severely limited access) you simply cannot say that there is no evidence.

                                                                                                                        It also might not exist on the internet at all...believe it or not, there are recent electronic documents in existence that haven't been published on the internet, for any of a number of reasons.

                                                                                                                        You can say that you aren't finding it....but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

                                                                                                                        As above...if your curiousity is killing you to that extent, contact a hospital, research facility, or university...they might be able to direct you to what you so desperately seek.

                                                                                                                        and with this, I'm finished with this discussion.

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                                                                                                                        1. re: rasputina
                                                                                                                          monavano RE: rasputina May 26, 2014 03:33 AM

                                                                                                                          Quelle horreur!

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                                                                                                3. re: latindancer
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                                                                                                  millygirl RE: latindancer May 20, 2014 09:50 AM

                                                                                                  It would also be horribly unfair to a pet. Some people are odd indeed.

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                                                                                              zackly RE: sushidad May 18, 2014 04:51 PM

                                                                                              There was a long thread about this recently. You better get used to it because I read recently that it's a trend to allow dogs in restaurants.

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                                                                                              1. opinionatedchef RE: sushidad May 18, 2014 05:19 PM

                                                                                                Not that this will please you but in France 'everyone' brings their dogs into restaurants. I can't honestly imAgine how a diner holding a dog could be 'offensive.' Do you find babies being held offensive as well? As to 'potentially unhealthy' i would think that, if poop and pee are what worry you, a baby is about 100% more likely to do those things while in a restaurant-- than a dog .
                                                                                                Your reaction reminds me that we humans can be so very different in so many things (but then we often forget that we just as often or more often than not, share so many things. ) I myself would be THRILLED to see dogs in restaurants, as I am a total animal lover. One of my fav things about vacationing in Carmel CA is the fact that it is a dog loving town where most walkers have dogs with them and some hotels welcome animals as well. I do know that some people do not share my affinity with animals, but if the dogs lie quietly, I see no reason to bar them.

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                                                                                                1. re: opinionatedchef
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                                                                                                  latindancer RE: opinionatedchef May 18, 2014 05:35 PM

                                                                                                  <I am a total animal lover>

                                                                                                  So am I.
                                                                                                  So are lots of people, including the ones who understand and follow the law and understand the people at the next table who may not be a 'total animal lover'.
                                                                                                  Interestingly, along these same lines, I was at a restaurant in BH recently, eating breakfast with a friend. We were sitting outside on the patio.
                                                                                                  The lady and man next to us brought 2 of their big dogs along (both on leashes and not permitted to eat there) and the dogs both jumped up on my friend without being invited. My friend, also a dog lover, calmly asked the owners to get their f*&ing dogs off her.
                                                                                                  Not everyone likes eating with dogs in a restaurant, regardless of how much they love animals.

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                                                                                                  1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                    PhilD RE: latindancer May 18, 2014 11:23 PM

                                                                                                    Agree. I don't mind dogs in restaurants or bars, however there is a big difference between a dog lying under the table and one sitting on a seat or being fed from a plate on someones lap.

                                                                                                    However, must disagree with Opinionatedchef: "As to 'potentially unhealthy' i would think that, if poop and pee are what worry you, a baby is about 100% more likely to do those things while in a restaurant-- than a dog".

                                                                                                    As far as I know babies don'r excrete the same worms that dogs do and so you don't risk infections with roundworms etc. So whilst both poop but the dogs poop can be quite dangerous to humans if worm larvae are ingested i.e. from a plate licked by a dog (and we all know where dogs put their noses).

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                                                                                                    1. re: PhilD
                                                                                                      jrvedivici RE: PhilD May 19, 2014 08:04 AM

                                                                                                      Not to gang up on Opinionatedchef, but I to would have to take exception to that statistic of a child or baby being 100% more likely. That's a stretch to me, let alone the fact that 99% of babies who would do that in a restaurant the movement, either liquid or solid, is self contained. I don't know of many dog's who are wearing diapers.

                                                                                                      Truthfully I just don't see the comparison at all.

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                                                                                                  2. re: opinionatedchef
                                                                                                    monkeyrotica RE: opinionatedchef May 19, 2014 07:03 AM

                                                                                                    <I>Do you find babies being held offensive as well? </i>

                                                                                                    No, but babies don't usually lick themselves "down there" then give you a kiss.

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                                                                                                    1. re: monkeyrotica
                                                                                                      chartreauxx RE: monkeyrotica May 19, 2014 10:15 AM

                                                                                                      they do finger-paint with feces and stick their hands in your mouth to say hi, though :-) my best friend growing up in california once ate a rotting bullfrog off our driveway after it got hit by a car. it'd been there a couple days. his brother used to follow their beagle around waiting for it to poop, then eat the poop. kids can be pretty gross! ;-)

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                                                                                                      1. re: chartreauxx
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                                                                                                        Jerseygirl111 RE: chartreauxx May 19, 2014 11:13 AM

                                                                                                        Are you serious? Where the hell were the kid's parents? That level of inattention borders on neglect.

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                                                                                                        1. re: Jerseygirl111
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                                                                                                          INDIANRIVERFL RE: Jerseygirl111 May 19, 2014 11:30 AM

                                                                                                          Or the 50s.

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                                                                                                          1. re: INDIANRIVERFL
                                                                                                            monkeyrotica RE: INDIANRIVERFL May 19, 2014 12:27 PM

                                                                                                            Coworker who grew up in Louisiana in the '50s loves to regale me with stories of riding his bike behind the DDT truck that sprayed roads down. And who hasn't cracked open a thermometer and juggled the mercury? Like shoefitting fluoroscopes, the smell of burning autumn leaves, and sanitary napkin belts, it's just something the younger people will never experience. I weep for them.

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                                                                                                            1. re: monkeyrotica
                                                                                                              monavano RE: monkeyrotica May 19, 2014 02:05 PM

                                                                                                              +1 on Mercury. Fascinating, morphing shit.

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                                                                                                                Jerseygirl111 RE: monkeyrotica May 19, 2014 06:06 PM

                                                                                                                Kids, never lament the loss of sanitary napkin belts. They were a PITA.

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                                                                                                                1. re: Jerseygirl111
                                                                                                                  coll RE: Jerseygirl111 May 20, 2014 01:43 AM

                                                                                                                  And SO ugly ;-)

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                                                                                                              2. re: INDIANRIVERFL
                                                                                                                coll RE: INDIANRIVERFL May 19, 2014 03:25 PM

                                                                                                                The good ol' days! We learned on our own a lot.

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                                                                                                              3. re: Jerseygirl111
                                                                                                                chartreauxx RE: Jerseygirl111 May 19, 2014 11:34 AM

                                                                                                                well, the bullfrog happened while both our moms were standing in the driveway with us, and the dog thing had his mom tearing her hair out. it's not inattention - it's kids. he did stop trying to eat dog "cookies" by the time he was around two i believe, and at the time of the frog incident we were about 3. old enough to move fast, too young to have any judgment, perfect age to gray any parents' hair! the brother my age and i are still friends, and i think fondly of both his parents.

                                                                                                                one son (the one my age) is a physical therapist. his brother (the dog doo kid) is a doctor. go figure :-)

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                                                                                                                1. re: chartreauxx
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                                                                                                                  Jerseygirl111 RE: chartreauxx May 19, 2014 06:10 PM

                                                                                                                  Anything can happen, but letting your kid eat dog crap is a bit much.

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                                                                                                                  1. re: Jerseygirl111
                                                                                                                    chartreauxx RE: Jerseygirl111 May 19, 2014 06:21 PM

                                                                                                                    i think to suggest his parents, friends for years who often babysat me, are abusive or neglectful is a bit much. they were good parents, and she didn't "let" him, he occasionally snuck one by her.

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                                                                                                                    1. re: chartreauxx
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                                                                                                                      Jerseygirl111 RE: chartreauxx May 20, 2014 06:34 PM

                                                                                                                      <Shrugs> in my world if a kid is eating dog crap that's neglectful.

                                                                                                                      YMMV.

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                                                                                                                      1. re: chartreauxx
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                                                                                                                        thingmaker RE: chartreauxx May 21, 2014 03:09 PM

                                                                                                                        I used to babysit a lot in college. When one of my charges learned to walk her parents told me to keep the bathroom door closed at all times... because she liked to toddle in there and lick the toilet!

                                                                                                                        She's all grown up now and perfectly normal. :)

                                                                                                                        Kids can be strange little creatures sometimes. ;)

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                                                                                                                        1. re: thingmaker
                                                                                                                          chartreauxx RE: thingmaker May 21, 2014 03:20 PM

                                                                                                                          speaking of kids being weird, as a child my favorite snack that i "invented" myself as soon as i could use a butter knife and pour from a carton (steel yourself...) was a white bread peanut butter and mayonnaise sandwich with a glass of heavy cream. i kind of throw up in my mouth a little just thinking about it now. the toilet might be less disgusting! (i kids, i kids)

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                                                                                                                          1. re: chartreauxx
                                                                                                                            pikawicca RE: chartreauxx May 21, 2014 06:43 PM

                                                                                                                            My little brother was a fan of PB and mayo sandwiches. I took one bit and was not amused.

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                                                                                                            2. re: opinionatedchef
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                                                                                                              Bunny007 RE: opinionatedchef May 19, 2014 12:59 PM

                                                                                                              These things just don't seem comparable. It's common to leave pets home unattended (rather than taking them to a restaurant). Babies? Well, that's frowned upon.

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                                                                                                              1. re: opinionatedchef
                                                                                                                mcf RE: opinionatedchef May 19, 2014 02:30 PM

                                                                                                                I'm an animal lover, too. This issue never breaks down as animal lovers on one side, non lovers on the other.

                                                                                                                I would never bring any animal of mine to a restaurant or any other public place not intended for them.

                                                                                                                I'm more concerned about flea or tick exposure than anything else, plus some "animal lovers" don't notice nor care how bad their critters smell and bring them along everywhere anyway.

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                                                                                                                1. re: opinionatedchef
                                                                                                                  PattiCakes RE: opinionatedchef May 20, 2014 09:23 AM

                                                                                                                  When we traveled in Germany a few years ago, people took their dogs almost everywhere, We saw them quite a bit in restaurants and on the train. I must say, however, they way exceptionally well trained and well behaved, and there was none of the kissy-face, lovin' the dog up action that I have seen described here. The dogs sat by their owner's feet, or under the table, and were virtually invisible. Personally, I wouldn't take my my dog to a restaurant on a bet -- I have enough trouble just getting my husband to behave ; )

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                                                                                                                  1. re: opinionatedchef
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                                                                                                                    Querencia RE: opinionatedchef May 20, 2014 06:32 PM

                                                                                                                    In France I saw dogs in supermarkets sitting in shopping carts with their wormy bottoms exactly where I put my lettuce and unwrapped loaf of bread. This is disgusting as well as a health hazard. And no, I do not welcome screaming babies in restaurants either, with their parents changing poopy diapers on the seat of the booth next to where I am having dinner, or snotty-nosed toddlers who nuzzle my knee while I am eating. The entitlement of dog owners and young parents is beyond belief.

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                                                                                                                    1. re: Querencia
                                                                                                                      sunshine842 RE: Querencia May 20, 2014 07:02 PM

                                                                                                                      It's illegal to take dogs into supermarkets in France, too....although those canines taken into supermarkets are pampered and cosseted to a level that mon dieu, there's not a chance in hell that they'd have worms.

                                                                                                                      I'd take bigger issue with the fact that you're buying your baguette in the supermarket.

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                                                                                                                  2. hiddenboston RE: sushidad May 18, 2014 05:20 PM

                                                                                                                    I thought the law was that only service dogs can be allowed inside restaurants.

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                                                                                                                    1. re: hiddenboston
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                                                                                                                      9lives RE: hiddenboston May 18, 2014 05:24 PM

                                                                                                                      That's my understanding too..service dogs only allowed in restaurants

                                                                                                                      . restaurants can allow non service dogs on an outdoor patio.

                                                                                                                      Here's a link to a recent Globe piece which discusses service dogs and how they might not be what some have traditionally thought of as a service dog.

                                                                                                                      http://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/...

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                                                                                                                      1. re: 9lives
                                                                                                                        viperlush RE: 9lives May 19, 2014 02:58 PM

                                                                                                                        That's what pisses me off. People spend a lot time and money training service animals. Service animals help peoples feel like they are part of society. They are an extension of the person they with.

                                                                                                                        As someone currently looking for a pet friendly apartment in the Boston area I get how tempting it is to say "it's a support pet". And as someone who travels I would love to save money by taking my pet for free on the plane as a "support pet". And I'm sure that I could get a doctor to sign the proper documents. I know people who have. But I won't.

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                                                                                                                        1. re: viperlush
                                                                                                                          monavano RE: viperlush May 19, 2014 04:06 PM

                                                                                                                          DH and I are training our puppy very hard and diligently (and expensively!) to be a therapy dog- to pass the Canine Good Citizen Test, and help others for many years to come.
                                                                                                                          It. Is. Hard.
                                                                                                                          It. Is. Work.
                                                                                                                          It. Is. Commitment.
                                                                                                                          It. Is A Lot Of Time!

                                                                                                                          So, yeah, it pisses me off too ;)

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                                                                                                                          1. re: monavano
                                                                                                                            chartreauxx RE: monavano May 19, 2014 04:10 PM

                                                                                                                            oh my gosh, we are working toward the same thing! it is why i'd never fib about her being one if she's not - it's insulting to the dogs and handlers who've earned the designation.

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                                                                                                                          2. re: viperlush
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                                                                                                                            latindancer RE: viperlush May 19, 2014 04:10 PM

                                                                                                                            I wouldn't either and I'm a very loyal and committed rescue dog(s) owner. I love my animals.

                                                                                                                            I wish more people were like you.
                                                                                                                            Unfortunately the people who offend the law are self-serving and their sense of entitlement overshadows their ability or desire to tell the truth.

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                                                                                                                            1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                              monavano RE: latindancer May 20, 2014 04:31 AM

                                                                                                                              So true.
                                                                                                                              If and when we pass the CGC test, we will wear it as a badge of honor and use it to help others, not wielding any sense of entitlement by taking our puppy where he ought not be.
                                                                                                                              Personally, I find food shopping (big shops) soothing and I'm in the "zone", so I can't imagine my dog there!

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                                                                                                                              1. re: monavano
                                                                                                                                greygarious RE: monavano May 20, 2014 09:08 AM

                                                                                                                                A therapy dog certification comes with a tag or collar or vest or other designation, but it does not, and never has, entitled a dog entry to a store or other place of business that does not permit customers to bring their dogs. This was made very clear to the dog owners in the group to which my late dog belonged. In groups of 6 or so dogs and owners, we visited nursing and assisted living homes, day care programs for both children and seniors, and special needs elementary school classes.

                                                                                                                                At one point, there were negotiations about visiting children at a major Boston Hospital. But the hospital was proposing such stringent rules that most of us were not interested in participating. The dogs would have to be shampooed within X hours beforehand, with a medicated shampoo specified by the hospital, then wear shirts that covered their entire torsoes. I had the feeling that the hospital had been asked by parents to allow canine visits but was terrified of liability so was setting up every roadblock it could come up with. If memory serves, they were even going to require us owners, at our own expense, to get special insurance for our dogs.

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                                                                                                                                1. re: greygarious
                                                                                                                                  monavano RE: greygarious May 20, 2014 09:13 AM

                                                                                                                                  A therapy dog is not a guide dog, or the like, of course.
                                                                                                                                  I would never think that once certified, my dog would be entitled to go everywhere I go.
                                                                                                                                  That's ridiculous, but I'm betting people flash that collar or vest and abuse it.

                                                                                                                                  I'm a PT, so I'm very excited to pair that clinical experience with my dog, to help patients and people.

                                                                                                                                  My puppy just graduated from puppy class, and we're on to the next level!

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                                                                                                                                  1. re: monavano
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                                                                                                                                    latindancer RE: monavano May 20, 2014 09:26 AM

                                                                                                                                    Congratulations, monavano.
                                                                                                                                    To you and your puppy.

                                                                                                                                    I've watched my own dog (not a therapy dog but certainly is for us) sit with a special needs adult who may have petted her to death had we not intervened.
                                                                                                                                    This person, a relative, sat for a long, long time with our dog and petted and talked to her, as if they had some secret thing going on. Very symbiotic.
                                                                                                                                    There's no doubt in my mind her blood pressure was lowered and her whole being was quenched with some very positive, much needed calmness.
                                                                                                                                    Amazing to watch.

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                                                                                                                                    1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                      monavano RE: latindancer May 20, 2014 09:32 AM

                                                                                                                                      My little puppy adores people and is showing signs of maturing from his Whirling Dervish phase.
                                                                                                                                      Neutering him next month should help, too!.

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                                                                                                                                      1. re: monavano
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                                                                                                                                        latindancer RE: monavano May 20, 2014 09:42 AM

                                                                                                                                        :-)

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                                                                                                                                      2. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                        opinionatedchef RE: latindancer May 20, 2014 09:44 PM

                                                                                                                                        Thx so much for that. I loved hearing that story.

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                                                                                                                          3. re: hiddenboston
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                                                                                                                            latindancer RE: hiddenboston May 18, 2014 05:29 PM

                                                                                                                            That is the law.

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                                                                                                                            1. re: hiddenboston
                                                                                                                              sal_acid RE: hiddenboston May 18, 2014 05:39 PM

                                                                                                                              It takes literally nothing to get a service dog badge online. http://usdogregistry.org/?gclid=COGtk...

                                                                                                                              And it cannot be challenged without risking a violation of the ADA.

                                                                                                                              Crazy but true.

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                                                                                                                              1. re: sal_acid
                                                                                                                                enhF94 RE: sal_acid May 18, 2014 06:58 PM

                                                                                                                                Notably, however, no epidemic of fake service dogs.

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                                                                                                                                1. re: enhF94
                                                                                                                                  sal_acid RE: enhF94 May 18, 2014 07:03 PM

                                                                                                                                  I don't know about an epidemic, but I have two friends who've done this and have absolutely zero need for a service dog. They did it for fun, and now take their dogs with them into restaurants and stores.

                                                                                                                                  In fact it is hard for me to imagine how the dinky dogs that typically have the badge can perform any service at all. I wonder about the % legit service dogs.

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                                                                                                                                  1. re: sal_acid
                                                                                                                                    paulj RE: sal_acid May 19, 2014 12:22 AM

                                                                                                                                    A couple of years ago when looking for a new puppy, we looked at some Scottish Terriers. The bitch was an epilepsy service dog, at category covered under ADA. At least that's what the owner said, and I have no reason to doubt her.

                                                                                                                                    While size matters with guide dogs, for other categories, it doesn't. Small might in fact be better for some jobs.

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                                                                                                                                    1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                      sunshine842 RE: paulj May 19, 2014 09:27 PM

                                                                                                                                      there are small dogs that sense seizures and anxiety attacks -- ours is not to judge.

                                                                                                                                      I do, however, thank my lucky stars that while I like taking my boys where they are welcomed, I don't have a medical need that dictates that they be by my side 24/7.

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                                                                                                                                    2. re: sal_acid
                                                                                                                                      monkeyrotica RE: sal_acid May 19, 2014 02:41 PM

                                                                                                                                      See, this is the sorta thing that makes me want to hire a helper monkey that's a 300lb Barbary Ape in a yellow vest and when he's eaten your fake service dog's face, I can say, "He's very friendly! He likes your dog!"

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                                                                                                                                      1. re: monkeyrotica
                                                                                                                                        jrvedivici RE: monkeyrotica May 19, 2014 03:12 PM

                                                                                                                                        If you are accepting applications I fit the bill, including my own yellow vest.

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                                                                                                                                        1. re: jrvedivici
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                                                                                                                                          thingmaker RE: jrvedivici May 21, 2014 12:31 AM

                                                                                                                                          Hahahaha!!!

                                                                                                                                          Makes me think of that Addams Family episode when they get a gorilla to do the ironing. :)

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                                                                                                                                    3. re: enhF94
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                                                                                                                                      GH1618 RE: enhF94 May 19, 2014 01:03 PM

                                                                                                                                      There is in California.

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                                                                                                                                  2. re: hiddenboston
                                                                                                                                    carolinadawg RE: hiddenboston May 19, 2014 01:16 PM

                                                                                                                                    It varies from state to state, and even county to county.

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                                                                                                                                    miss_belle RE: sushidad May 18, 2014 05:37 PM

                                                                                                                                    Oh geez, here we go again..

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                                                                                                                                    1. greygarious RE: sushidad May 18, 2014 05:38 PM

                                                                                                                                      Here's the recent, endless hashing and gnashing over pet cooties:
                                                                                                                                      http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/9692...

                                                                                                                                      It does violate regulations, which I hope will eventually change to allow controlled pets in places of business at the discretion of management. I am never, EVER, "disgusted with dogs", but often with their owners, and people in general.

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                                                                                                                                      1. trufflehound RE: sushidad May 18, 2014 06:47 PM

                                                                                                                                        Let's not forget the Big I's incident.
                                                                                                                                        http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013...

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                                                                                                                                          FriedClamFanatic RE: sushidad May 18, 2014 07:44 PM

                                                                                                                                          Nope...............go to Europe...not uncommon......and most dogs are better behaved than most diners

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                                                                                                                                          1. re: FriedClamFanatic
                                                                                                                                            Jpan99 RE: FriedClamFanatic May 19, 2014 08:11 AM

                                                                                                                                            Yes, I was in Austria recently. Dogs everywhere, restaurants, tourist attractions. My kind of place!

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                                                                                                                                            schrutefarms RE: sushidad May 18, 2014 10:41 PM

                                                                                                                                            Don't even get me started…
                                                                                                                                            Here in LA service dogs have replaced Prozac. Apparently every single person with a dog has PTSD and their dog is now a service dog to control their anxiety. It's a regular thing now for dogs to be inside grocery stores (I've seen everything from Chihuahuas to Great Danes), in restaurants, and at the movie theater. Yep. The movie theater. The worst was seeing a dog and the owner walking out of one of those Halloween maze things on the Queen Mary, where people dressed up run up and scare the shit out of you…I wanted to kill that irresponsible owner. That dog was probably scared shitless. I used to be really pissed off about seeing dogs everywhere I go, but I'm now in a more accepting phase. It's not going anywhere. And don't get me wrong, I absolutely love dogs and have two of my own. I just don't think people who choose not to have a dog should have to find dog fur in their groceries.

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                                                                                                                                            1. re: schrutefarms
                                                                                                                                              monavano RE: schrutefarms May 19, 2014 07:25 AM

                                                                                                                                              Dogs are hardly tall enough to shed onto food.
                                                                                                                                              otoh, you are.
                                                                                                                                              That and spittle spreading, which we all do.

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                                                                                                                                              1. re: monavano
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                                                                                                                                                schrutefarms RE: monavano May 19, 2014 08:18 AM

                                                                                                                                                No, you're right. Animals should absolutely be around places where non dog owners and lovers buy their food. Totally.

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                                                                                                                                                1. re: schrutefarms
                                                                                                                                                  monavano RE: schrutefarms May 19, 2014 08:44 AM

                                                                                                                                                  What????????

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                                                                                                                                              2. re: schrutefarms
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                                                                                                                                                Querencia RE: schrutefarms May 20, 2014 06:38 PM

                                                                                                                                                I volunteer at an agency that serves the blind. I have seen a genuine Guide Dog sit without moving a hair on his tail for four hours until his owner gave him the command to get up. I have seen a hot thirsty Guide Dog on a summer day be given a pan of water and not start drinking it until his owner gives him the command. The discipline of these animals is astonishing. And I have heard plenty of stories from blind people of the courage and intelligence of their trained Guide Dogs. The thought that people are mocking real Guide Dogs by lying and impersonating is horrible.

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                                                                                                                                                  schrutefarms RE: Querencia May 20, 2014 08:02 PM

                                                                                                                                                  Agreed….I'm wearing my "Dogs for the Deaf" sweatshirt as I type! I am all for therapy dogs for people that have special needs. The lengths some people go to (getting fake service dog vests, lying about having anxiety etc) is ridiculous, at least here in LA.. It is so inconsiderate to other people who dont want to shop/watch a movie/go to a concert next to your dog. I actually had a woman at the dog park a few months back tell me "I don't go anywhere that my dog isn't allowed to go to also" . I just thought, wow, how sad for you to be limiting the things that you could be enjoying because your dog can't come too. Even my own friends have been guilty of it on many occasions, it seems like I can't ask certain people over for dinner because I will have to answer the "can my dog come too?" question. And then I have to feel like an asshole for saying no. It's fucking weird. It's like their dog is now their boyfriend and every invite has to be extended to them.

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                                                                                                                                                  1. re: schrutefarms
                                                                                                                                                    sunshine842 RE: schrutefarms May 20, 2014 08:07 PM

                                                                                                                                                    yeaaah....that's kinda over the top.

                                                                                                                                                    Nothing of that ilk in my circle in Florida...I love my dogs, love to take them places, but yeah, there are limits.

                                                                                                                                                    The only time we take them to someone else's house is if they've been specifically invited -- usually by friends who also have a dog, and usually a fenced yard.

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                                                                                                                                                    1. re: schrutefarms
                                                                                                                                                      opinionatedchef RE: schrutefarms May 20, 2014 09:57 PM

                                                                                                                                                      <how sad for you to be limiting the things that you could be enjoying because your dog can't come too>

                                                                                                                                                      One person's 'sad' judgement is another person's joy. In a world where there are many people who are not particularly happy, it always makes me happy when I see or hear about people that animals have made happy.
                                                                                                                                                      I could care less if they're 'missing something' that disallows animals. Heck, sfarms, you could be sad about everyone, each one for diff reasons. Maybe you'd find it sad that I chose never to attend any live sports events. And maybe someone would find it sad that you would never do some activity that they just loved.

                                                                                                                                                      imo, where love and happiness are concerned, better to admire their happiness rather than judge them.

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                                                                                                                                                        schrutefarms RE: opinionatedchef May 21, 2014 09:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                        The event in question that she was telling me about was a friends BBQ where her dog was not invited (there were too many people coming, and the host thought it would be too chaotic). So she chose not to go, hence the remark "I don't go anywhere my dog isn't allowed to go also". And yes, I thought, and think, that is sad, that she can't hang out with real-life human friends, because her furry one has to be left at home. I have no judgement on what makes a person happy-after all, I have two happy, furry faces that I get to hang out with at home every day, and they make me inexplicably happy- but limiting your world and not seeing your own friends is kind of sad--for her, and her friend that invited her over. To each their own, I guess, since in the grand scheme of things I could give a flying rats ass what this person at the dog park does with their own life, but for me, my opinion is that it is sad when someone won't socialize with their friends because their dog can't come. Not ever going to a live sporting event, or a musical, or a poetry reading seems like it would be a matter of taste, and I wouldn't ever think it was weird if someone never went to one in their entire life. But the statement "I won't go anywhere my dog isn't allowed to go" I do find very limiting, since we live in a society where dogs are not allowed to go everywhere, therefor you have just excluded yourself from doing a ton of things, and experiencing a ton of stuff. And I do think that's kind of sad!

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                                                                                                                                                        1. re: schrutefarms
                                                                                                                                                          monavano RE: schrutefarms May 21, 2014 09:49 AM

                                                                                                                                                          I bet if the dog could, he'd tell her to get a life of her own.

                                                                                                                                                          Dogs are fine to relax at home for reasonable periods of time.
                                                                                                                                                          I'm sure that when I leave the house, my dogs smell their farts, then fall asleep.

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                                                                                                                                                            schrutefarms RE: monavano May 21, 2014 09:55 AM

                                                                                                                                                            I come home to toys scattered on the floor and two passed out mutts. I'm pretty sure it's party time when I'm gone.

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                                                                                                                                                            1. re: monavano
                                                                                                                                                              tcamp RE: monavano May 21, 2014 09:56 AM

                                                                                                                                                              "Please, leave me alone already. I'm dying to lounge on that forbidden couch/chair/bed and lick my balls/ass for a sustained period of time. And maybe check the trash cans for tasty tidbits. Buh bye."

                                                                                                                                                              What I sometimes think they're saying come Monday morning.

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                                                                                                                                                              1. re: tcamp
                                                                                                                                                                foodieX2 RE: tcamp May 21, 2014 01:55 PM

                                                                                                                                                                My favorite "guilty dog" video!

                                                                                                                                                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irSC4...

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                                                                                                                                                                  coll RE: foodieX2 May 22, 2014 04:51 AM

                                                                                                                                                                  Took me a moment to realize what was around his neck, funny!

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                                                                                                                                                    bachchick RE: sushidad May 18, 2014 11:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                    It's becoming an incredible problem. When I go to a grocery store there are sometimes 3-4 dogs. They are everywhere; even in my doctor's waiting room. Most of these dogs do not seem like service dogs at all. Some are off leash. When I was at the Apple Store a week ago there were two yappy dogs that were barking and got in a fight. The problem is that I have serious health problems triggered by my allergies which includes an allergy to dogs. When I complain, the employees say that they have to allow "service dogs" and can't even ask. I certainly understand the idea of service dogs, but I know that many of these people are flaunting the law. There needs to be some way to limit this tendency. For me it is a matter of danger to my health. I know that there will be a flood of responses telling me that my health problems are my own issue and people have a right to their service pets at all times.

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                                                                                                                                                      LeoLioness RE: bachchick May 19, 2014 06:48 AM

                                                                                                                                                      Can you tell which people are flauting the law with "service dogs" as opposed to service dogs?

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                                                                                                                                                        latindancer RE: LeoLioness May 19, 2014 06:57 AM

                                                                                                                                                        Where I live (part of LA that's known for over-the-top enabling dog owners that fit a certain profile) it's not too hard to tell…

                                                                                                                                                        It's on the part of the owner, usually not the dog.
                                                                                                                                                        Sense of entitlement dog owners/people who actually require their service dog for day-day existence:
                                                                                                                                                        The entitlement owner wears their entitlement like a badge of honor. They're smug and looking around to see who'll ask them the big question. The person who actually needs a service has a sense of humility about them. They've got the dog in its little vest and the dog actually *looks* like it's being of service.
                                                                                                                                                        Same goes for the people who illegally use handicap placards…it's not too hard to figure it out. The person who's breaking the law usually gets out of their Mercedes and struts into the business and the actual disabled placard user usually calmly and carefully enters the business.
                                                                                                                                                        Enforcing either one is almost impossible, if not impossible.

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                                                                                                                                                      2. re: bachchick
                                                                                                                                                        monavano RE: bachchick May 19, 2014 07:26 AM

                                                                                                                                                        Can you carry a mask with you?

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                                                                                                                                                          HoosierFoodie RE: bachchick May 19, 2014 11:37 AM

                                                                                                                                                          The employees are correct in that they likely aren't supposed to even ask. I am in the grocery business and inquired to our health department and they basically said there is nothing anyone can do. Service dogs are not limited to the traditional shepard/lab seeing eye dogs. They can be in service for emotional or psychological reasons.

                                                                                                                                                          So, get used to it and it isn't going away. Flaunting the law or not people are going to bring their dogs with them everywhere. If your allergies are that bad even having a dog in the area you need to see an allergist.

                                                                                                                                                          As far as being "disgusted" since I have 4 dogs I'm probably not the best person to judge. But people might have to adjust. Life's rough, wear a helmet.

                                                                                                                                                          As far as the OP, I'm not

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                                                                                                                                                          1. re: bachchick
                                                                                                                                                            Ruth Lafler RE: bachchick May 20, 2014 04:36 PM

                                                                                                                                                            Just because several people have repeated it, it's "flouting" not "flaunting" http://dictionary.reference.com/help/...

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                                                                                                                                                            Harters RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 01:37 AM

                                                                                                                                                            I cannot recall seeing a dog in a restaurant (with the exception of assistance dogs). Outside, on the patio, yes - but not inside. I was sure it would contravene our health codes - but Googled just now to find that it isnt. All a matter of whatever the restaurant owner decides apparently.

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                                                                                                                                                            1. Firegoat RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 06:51 AM

                                                                                                                                                              Didn't we just beat this topic to death last month?

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                                                                                                                                                                LeoLioness RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 06:51 AM

                                                                                                                                                                No. But then again, I really like dogs.

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                                                                                                                                                                1. mtlcowgirl RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 07:05 AM

                                                                                                                                                                  I think it depends on what one is used to. People bring their dogs into restaurants in Paris all the time.

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                                                                                                                                                                    emu48 RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 07:24 AM

                                                                                                                                                                    Heh. Know about "wild game" restaurants in China?

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                                                                                                                                                                      hueyishere RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 07:27 AM

                                                                                                                                                                      I love dogs, but don't like them in restaurants and stores. Some people are allergic to them and it is just not considerate of others.

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                                                                                                                                                                        beevod RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 08:02 AM

                                                                                                                                                                        Service Dogs: Another in that great line of politically correct scams. Next we'll see service dogs in operating rooms.

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                                                                                                                                                                          monavano RE: beevod May 19, 2014 08:45 AM

                                                                                                                                                                          Oh dear gawd

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                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: beevod
                                                                                                                                                                            foodieX2 RE: beevod May 19, 2014 10:56 AM

                                                                                                                                                                            Seeing eye dogs are scams? Does that make police dogs scams too?

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                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: foodieX2
                                                                                                                                                                              jrvedivici RE: foodieX2 May 19, 2014 11:15 AM

                                                                                                                                                                              Service dog's are a far broader category than just seeing eye dog's. Not that I am an expert on this issue I believe most of the "scams" are regarding the use of "service" animals for PTSD or anxiety disorders. People who claim they require the company of a service dog to properly function, stay calm while in a public setting. This is where I believe the service dog area is very susceptible to fraud.

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                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: jrvedivici
                                                                                                                                                                                greygarious RE: jrvedivici May 19, 2014 12:10 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                It should be no surprise, given my user name and avatar, that I am involved in the rescue and rehoming of racing greyhounds. There is currently at least one official program which trains these dogs to be physical support dogs for disabled veterans who need help maintaining their balance when standing and walking, and as emotional support dogs for those with PTSD. Given how quiet, calm, and docile most greyhounds are, they are ideal for these roles. But people who do not know the breed assume they are hyper and would not think of them as legitimate service dogs.

                                                                                                                                                                                Seizure alert dogs can be any size, any breed. They have to have a natural ability to detect incipient seizures and alert humans to them. Training for such dogs merely refines this instinctive behavior so that the dog performs specific actions to signal the owner to lie down. Don't judge a book by its cover.

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                                                                                                                                                                                  medrite RE: greygarious May 19, 2014 12:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                  I have heard of these seizure dogs and I would never dispute that they perform a real service to people. I was really referring to these 2 specific cases-- trust me, if you knew the people involved, you'd understand why I was so skeptical.

                                                                                                                                                                                  And anyway, as I said in an earlier post, I'm in the camp that believes people SHOULD be permitted to bring their dogs into stores &restaurants. If nothing else it probably would cut down on people running service dog scams.

                                                                                                                                                                                  BTW my neighbors have an Italian greyhound and he is indeed a sweet, affectionate boy -- as long as you don't get between him and his biscuit! :)

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                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: greygarious
                                                                                                                                                                                    chowser RE: greygarious May 20, 2014 12:17 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for pointing this out. People make this type of assumption when they see someone park in handicap parking, too. They might appear perfectly fine so people judge them on limited information. And, they can be confrontational, too.

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                                                                                                                                                                                      Jerseygirl111 RE: chowser May 20, 2014 06:41 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      If the person displays the legal credentials for handicap parking, then there should never be any question. But if you don't have a hangtag or plate, all bets are off.

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                                                                                                                                                                                        chowser RE: Jerseygirl111 May 21, 2014 04:07 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes, I agree, but you'd be surprised at the number of people who challenge it based on what they see. Mostly in loud passive aggressive comments, sadly.

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                                                                                                                                                                                    latindancer RE: jrvedivici May 19, 2014 03:52 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    Very susceptible.

                                                                                                                                                                                    It's a major problem in CA…particularly where I live in LA.
                                                                                                                                                                                    So major, in fact, that the CA legislator is working hard to change the way the law is worded.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Business owners, at this point, are sitting back without confronting the dog owners who they know are offenders.
                                                                                                                                                                                    To word a question wrong could result in a lawsuit and the owners of these dogs know it.

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                                                                                                                                                                                  beevod RE: beevod May 19, 2014 04:00 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                  Seeing eye and police dogs are in a class by themselves. That's a given. But schlepping a mutt into a restaurant so you can "stay calm" and chew your soup is just plain wrong.

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                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: beevod
                                                                                                                                                                                    sunshine842 RE: beevod May 19, 2014 09:34 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    all seeing-eye dogs are service dogs. Not all service dogs are seeing-eye dogs.

                                                                                                                                                                                    There are lots of dogs who are legitimately trained to give mobility assistance, sense high or low blood sugar, sense seizures of various origins, and to sense when their human is succumbing to an anxiety attack.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Service dogs come in all sizes and all breeds, and a Yorkie who has been trained to spot an epilectic seizure is no less legitimate a service animal than a hulking German Shepherd

                                                                                                                                                                                    I was just talking this weekend with a guy who trains service dogs for the blind...he said that they use very few Shepherds any more, as the liability has become too great (they can be intimidating)

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                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                                                                      coll RE: sunshine842 May 20, 2014 01:44 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm seeing a lot of poodles around here.

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                                                                                                                                                                                        sunshine842 RE: coll May 20, 2014 03:45 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                        poodles are incredibly intelligent *and* they tend to shed less and have less dander than other breeds, making them at least less of a trigger for the allergic crowd.

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                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                                                                        monavano RE: sunshine842 May 20, 2014 04:32 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                        The amount of time and love and WORK that goes into the making of service dogs is astounding.

                                                                                                                                                                                        People are very LUCKY to be able to have one.

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                                                                                                                                                                                          latindancer RE: sunshine842 May 20, 2014 08:52 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                          This makes me sad. What liability? They're trained to protect and guide. Intimidating? I'm not questioning your facts, Sunshine, but I'm saddened that a dog so beautiful, with eyes that are so kind, has had to suffer the stereotype of being the 'nazi' dog in a very horrible time in our history.

                                                                                                                                                                                          I love Shepherds for a variety of reasons. They're intelligent, loyal, agile, beautiful and highly trainable.
                                                                                                                                                                                          Bruno, 'our' beloved police Shepherd who was shot in the face by a criminal, has retired…nobody deserves it more.
                                                                                                                                                                                          Those of us who are dog/animal lovers waited in anticipation while he was undergoing surgery to save his life.
                                                                                                                                                                                          I've always loved these dogs. Every time I see one helping his/her companion walk steps, walk across the street, I'm amazed at their loyalty to their owner.

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                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                            sunshine842 RE: latindancer May 20, 2014 07:08 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                            there've been enough claims from bites and attacks that insurance agencies won't insure the training agencies.

                                                                                                                                                                                            I totally get that anecdotes do not make data -- but the only time I've ever been chased down and bitten by a dog was by a Shepherd (utterly unprovoked, by the way -- TWICE). Fortunately, I wasn't hurt past what a bandaid would fix but I now give them a wide berth. Not phobic by any stretch, but I don't offer to cuddle up with them, either.

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                                                                                                                                                                                              lsmutko RE: sunshine842 May 22, 2014 10:15 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                              Part of it's liability, part of it is shepherds really bond to their individual trainers, more than the retrievers that are quickly becoming the norm. It's tough, not impossible, to get a shepherd to transfer its loyalty from its puppy raiser to the formal trainer and then to the person its assigned to. At least that's what I've been told by people who are involved in the guide dog world.

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                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: lsmutko
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                                                                                                                                                                                                Jerseygirl111 RE: lsmutko May 23, 2014 01:41 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                Are police dogs raised by the offcers they work with?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: Jerseygirl111
                                                                                                                                                                                                  greygarious RE: Jerseygirl111 May 23, 2014 06:11 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  No. But once they are paired with an officer they usually live with that officer for the rest of their career and once retired, stay on as the family pet.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hobbert RE: Jerseygirl111 May 24, 2014 08:17 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sometimes but not usually. They get their "basic" training to see if being a police dog is a good fit and go live with the officer once it's determined they'll make a good law enforcement dog. Training is ongoing. Like gregarious said, though, they stay with that officer for life.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                      cleobeach RE: Hobbert May 24, 2014 03:14 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                      And the officer is also trained to have the dog.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hobbert RE: cleobeach May 25, 2014 04:06 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Oh, definitely. They train together for as long as the dog is in law enforcement.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                2. re: sunshine842
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                                                                                                                                                                                                  latindancer RE: sunshine842 May 25, 2014 09:46 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  <there've been enough claims from bites and attacks>

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've never heard about those statistics in all the literature I've read about Shepherds. I'd never hesitate to own one though…I know too many people who've owned them over the years and wouldn't own any other type of dog.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  In these parts the little innocuous looking Chihauhua is labeled as the 'bites and attack' dog…the rescue shelters are loaded with them, unable to adopt them out.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                    sunshine842 RE: latindancer May 25, 2014 09:51 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm telling you what the guy who works for the guide dog training association told me. They can't use Shepherds because they will lose their insurance.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Pretty sure he has nothing to gain by making up shit.

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                                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: beevod
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                                                                                                                                                                                              9lives RE: beevod May 20, 2014 03:21 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                              many of these "mutts being schlepped into restaurants so you can stay calm and chew your soup" are highly trained animals.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Many are used as therapy dogs for combat veterans who are suffering from PTSD, as well as other disorders besides blindness and the use of seeing eye dogs.

                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm fine with people who actually need the dogs as a companion.

                                                                                                                                                                                              OTOH, apparently particularly in CA according to some posts, there is great abuse of this law re service dogs.

                                                                                                                                                                                              THis is wrong and is on a par with faking a limp and going to a friendly doc to. Get handicapped parking sticker.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Here's a link I posted when this thread was in its first few posts and properly moved from the Boston board where the OP posted it.

                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/...

                                                                                                                                                                                              It's not a question of whether someone "likes" or doesn't like dogs in restaurants, or likes dogs but not in restaurants, etc. it's the the law as stated in the ADA, as long as the dog is a legitimate service dog.

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                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: 9lives
                                                                                                                                                                                                monavano RE: 9lives May 20, 2014 04:33 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                Even big, burly men have PTS, and they might need a teacup poodle to get through their day.

                                                                                                                                                                                                More power to them.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: monavano
                                                                                                                                                                                                  jrvedivici RE: monavano May 20, 2014 06:49 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a Shi Tzu and I should have PTS from all the shit I get from my friends for having one!!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: monavano
                                                                                                                                                                                                    sunshine842 RE: monavano May 20, 2014 07:08 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                    +1 -- whatever it takes to unbreak those guys.

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                                                                                                                                                                                              INDIANRIVERFL RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 08:06 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                              On given the choice of "ankle biters" in restaurants, I prefer canine over homo sapiens.

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                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: INDIANRIVERFL
                                                                                                                                                                                                Uncle Bob RE: INDIANRIVERFL May 19, 2014 08:45 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                :)

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                                                                                                                                                                                              2. chartreauxx RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 10:22 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                i think a well-behaved canine (a clean, quiet one that stays put and does not beg, bark, disturb others, etc) can be an excellent addition to a dining experience. more and more places here in seattle are allowing dogs - i love it! i take my lab puppy with me often. it teaches her to be quiet, accept hustle and bustle, be comfortable in (sometimes noisy) crowded settings, experience socializing with everything from babies to seniors. it's great and i love having her with me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                i don't find it offensive - it's certainly not unhealthy (unless you're licking the floor hoping to contract giardia or something) as dogs carry relatively few illnesses communicable to people and none of them are airborne. i think it's at the discretion of the establishment. personally i like it and wish more places allowed/encouraged dogs. i don't take offense when they do and suki stays home. i don't find it gross, disgusting or offensive - i do think people should respect establishments that DON'T welcome four-legged guests, but i also wish more places stopped buying into the idea that dogs are somehow unsanitary or inappropriate.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: chartreauxx
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                                                                                                                                                                                                  latindancer RE: chartreauxx May 19, 2014 10:50 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think this could get a little tricky, don't you?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  So, how about if I bring my bird and cat along with me because I can't really stand the thought of my bird missing me? She's very social, loves people, entertains on cue and follows my commands. I could teach my cat to walk with a leash nd my bird's fine on my arm…she's very, very clean…
                                                                                                                                                                                                  No human is going to contract a disease from my bird, I promise.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                    chartreauxx RE: latindancer May 19, 2014 10:54 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                    no objection here, same rules apply (and my cat also walks on a leash and has been to pet-friendly coffee shops). i had a friend whose african gray parrot rode everywhere with her. i don't mind people's animals as long as the establishment allows it, the animal is quiet, clean and polite, and is removed if it ceases to be so - just like kids or adults. just me though :) heck, bring your fish in a baggie if you like, though that's probably not too healthy for the fish (a lot of stress).

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                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: chartreauxx
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                                                                                                                                                                                                      latindancer RE: chartreauxx May 19, 2014 11:01 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                      You're so open-minded and accommodating!

                                                                                                                                                                                                      So now…

                                                                                                                                                                                                      With this utopia you're describing, where everyone brings every known animal with them because it's 'in the best interest of the animal and human to do so'…
                                                                                                                                                                                                      What should the law-abiding citizen, who follows the rules in order that we all get along out there, supposed to do who's allergic to cats, dogs and birds? Wear a mask? Take their meds, etc.?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                        chartreauxx RE: latindancer May 19, 2014 11:05 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                        go to an establishment that doesn't allow animals. same as if you don't like kids, go to a restaurant that's 21+ only or doesn't allow kids under a certain age.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: chartreauxx
                                                                                                                                                                                                          carolinadawg RE: chartreauxx May 19, 2014 01:23 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                          There are restaurants with age restrictions on the customers? I've never seen or heard of that.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: carolinadawg
                                                                                                                                                                                                            foodieX2 RE: carolinadawg May 19, 2014 01:26 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                            This opened just last year. I wonder if its still doing well?

                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/8995...

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Its also very common a resorts. They often have adults-only restaurants, pools, etc

                                                                                                                                                                                                            ETA- this one made the news too
                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2...

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                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: carolinadawg
                                                                                                                                                                                                              chartreauxx RE: carolinadawg May 19, 2014 01:44 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                              around here, some request no children (ie, under 12), and some simply choose to be a "bar" instead of a restaurant (which is then automatically 21+. it's pretty easy to do this in seattle, since if you have a bar area and it's not fenced off/separated, and/or you cannot access the restroom without passing through said bar... you're a bar and the whole joint is 21+. kind of nice really, for times i don't want the kid experience. it's too bad because well-behaved kids have a place at any restaurant. it's the poorly behaved ones i want to avoid... alas, the broad brush seems to be the only feasible way...

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                                                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: chartreauxx
                                                                                                                                                                                                              l
                                                                                                                                                                                                              latindancer RE: chartreauxx May 19, 2014 03:34 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                              So, essentially, you're breaking the law and asking others, who are following the law, to go elsewhere.
                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nice.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                chartreauxx RE: latindancer May 19, 2014 04:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                what? when am i breaking laws? i take my dog to restaurants where she's welcome, and i don't have kids. i'm almost 28 - i'm allowed in any bar i want. i'm not breaking any laws at all.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: chartreauxx
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                  latindancer RE: chartreauxx May 19, 2014 07:56 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Missed this post…
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sorry…
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Once again there are two different things being discussed here, apparently.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've always been talking about people who lie about alleged permits they have and bring their dog where only legal working dogs are allowed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You're talking about pet friendly businesses where, of course, your dog is welcomed by all, including me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Two different things.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    chartreauxx RE: latindancer May 19, 2014 09:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    so sorry we misunderstood each other! i'd never, EVER lie to bring my dog somewhere. we go only where we are welcome, but i love to bring her with me when i can. i only take her into businesses that either explicitly advertise it, ones where i've asked and been told yes, or ones where i've observed many people bringing non-service dogs. personally, i would love to see more pet-friendly businesses, and i am not grossed out by pets in restaurants... but i always, ALWAYS respect the laws of the area and the boundaries set by the establishment's owner. i think we pretty seriously crossed the streams! my apologies.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                            3. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                              foodieX2 RE: latindancer May 19, 2014 11:10 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                              They do what other people with allergies do-limit exposure.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Should 5 Guys stop serving free peanuts or should the person who is allergic avoid 5 Guys?

                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have severe seasonal allergies. Should my town cut down the flowering trees? Should I petition the state to kill all the golden rod in the adjacent state park? Or would it be better for me take my meds and invest in a good home air purifier?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: foodieX2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                l
                                                                                                                                                                                                                latindancer RE: foodieX2 May 19, 2014 03:37 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                We're talking about people who are breaking the law with their animals. They KNOW they're breaking the law when they tell the proprietor they've got a permit and, of course, they'd don't. We're not talking about legal service dogs. Nobody's debating the law abiding citizens.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Your town isn't breaking the law with the flowering trees.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Of course I adapt to the trees that are placed along my street…I'm allergic to them but I take my medication.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Please try and understand the difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                The guy who's selling peanuts isn't breaking the law.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Entirely different argument that simply doesn't apply to what we're discussing.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  foodieX2 RE: latindancer May 19, 2014 04:46 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  But you are talking about legal service animals. If a proprietor has the legal right to allow dogs or if a patron has the papers identifying his pet as a service animal then they are considered legal. Just because you can't see the disability or don't believe them doesn't matter.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: foodieX2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    l
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    latindancer RE: foodieX2 May 19, 2014 04:58 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <But you are talking about legal service animals>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    No I'm not….whatever gave you that idea? We're talking about dog owners who're bringing their dog into an establishment pretending the dog is permitted.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    foodie…please try and understand this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The proprietor is allowed to ask the dog owner if they're serviced. The dog owner simply says 'yes' and is not, by law, obliged to show the permit. They simply say, "my dog is permitted and I left the permit at home". The business owner has to take the dog owner's word for it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The proprietor is not allowed to ask what the service dog is used for. If the proprietor is allowing the dog, whether it's a service dog or otherwise? That's a different story.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have no problem with a service dog being in a restaurant/market/spa/nail salon…they're legal and working.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      foodieX2 RE: latindancer May 19, 2014 05:09 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      But where are all these scofflaws and why does it bother you so much?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      And how do you know they are lying? Seriously LD, try to understand this. Not everyone is an asshole.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I tend to err on the side of trusting the average folks with a service animal. Same way I trust those who park in handicaps spots with no visible one. I figure many would gladly leave their animal at home or give up their parking spots not to have a disability.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: foodieX2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        l
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        latindancer RE: foodieX2 May 19, 2014 05:18 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Southern California.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm assuming you don't live here so this may be more of a regional issue, not understood by those who've not experienced it. I'll give you that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I trust people who have a legitimate, permitted working animal….they carry their permit, their dog is highly trained and their dog is working, not visiting or being petted by complete strangers. However, that's not what this discussion is about.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We also have a big problem with people who use illegal parking placards….they steal them, they use their dead relative's parking permit…all sorts of ways to get them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        For people who're truly handicapped they, many times and I know a few, are unable to find parking spots.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Dead issue for those who don't live in S Cal…obviously you don't understand the issue(s).

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: foodieX2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          mcf RE: foodieX2 May 19, 2014 06:11 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In my local newspaper, there have been numerous cases of folks bringing dogs into apt/co-op/condo complexes where they're forbidden and then fighting enforcement of the bylaws by saying the dog is for emotional support.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          chartreauxx RE: latindancer May 19, 2014 06:24 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          i don't take my dog in and claim she's a service dog, i take her to restaurants that *openly advertise and promote* that PETS, note PETS, are welcome and there is a menu for the dogs, treats and water bowls provided by staff, etc. where i live, it's NOT illegal to bring a pet into a restaurant, it is up to the BUSINESS to decide if they wish to allow pets or not. perhaps you missed where someone else upthread pointed out the legality of this varies widely from city to city, and state to state. but pets aren't always banned legally, and people bringing pets, as i do, to establishments that CATER to them, are not lying, deceiving anyone, or breaking so much as a single comma of the law. you seem to have misinterpreted people who support dogs being allowed in restaurants, as somehow demanding they be allowed in every single one. not at all! i just want any legal complications lifted, so that business owners can decide for themselves if they want to allow animals - just as they decide if they want to offer vegetarian, kosher, halal, gluten free, vegan, etc options, alcohol, a kid's menu, allow kids, allow parties over a certain size, take reservations, not take reservations, and any of a million other choices establishments make (based upon which we choose where we wish to take our business).

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: chartreauxx
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            l
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            latindancer RE: chartreauxx May 19, 2014 06:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I totally, 100%, made a point, on another post, of stating there's a big difference between a 'pet friendly' business, that actually welcomes pets, and a business that is doing it's best to try and decipher who is actually breaking the law without risking getting sued. These businesses are totally different from each other.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The ones who are breaking the law (lying about a permit they don't have) are much different than people like you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If you'd have read the entirety of my post(s) you'd have realized that. Or, maybe not.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              chartreauxx RE: latindancer May 19, 2014 06:34 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              uh maybe we didn't read each other too well, then, because upthread you did tell me i was breaking the law... :-)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: chartreauxx
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                l
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                latindancer RE: chartreauxx May 19, 2014 07:41 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I apologize, chartreauxx…if I didn't clarify that with you earlier.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I believe 2 different subjects are being talked about.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  chartreauxx RE: latindancer May 19, 2014 09:04 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  i agree. i am aligned with you: don't lie about service animal status! but i also adore pet-friendly businesses and love to frequent them when i can.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3. re: foodieX2
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Querencia RE: foodieX2 May 20, 2014 06:44 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I should think that a major difference would be whether the owner lied to get the papers. "I get nervous unless Fido is with me" or "I think the no-dog law is silly so I get around it however I can" is not really the same as "I am totally blind and cannot cross the street without Fido".

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: Querencia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            foodieX2 RE: Querencia May 21, 2014 07:57 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Again how am to know the owner lied? Just because I don't see the handicap doesn't mean it isn't real. If I see an animal with a service tag or vest I give I the owner the benefit of the doubt. Same with handicap placards. Life is too short to get my panties in a twist about something I can't control.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            All that being said I will be the first one to make the call if someone admitted to me they lied to get legal papers. The same way I called someone out and reported them when they continued using their grandfathers placard months after he passed.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: foodieX2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              m
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              medrite RE: foodieX2 May 21, 2014 08:44 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Unfortunately, there are websites where, for a fee, you can get all the paraphernalia -- a vest for your dog, and some official-looking certificates, just by filling out an application. You can say anything you want on it. So theoretically even if someone challenges you for bringing your baby -- uh, dog -- into a restaurant or business that's not pet-friendly, you could whip out the certificate. And who are they to say it's not legit?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: medrite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                foodieX2 RE: medrite May 21, 2014 09:08 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <and who are they to day it's not legit>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Exactly. Until there are crack downs it's not for me to challenge the *individual*. And honestly? dogs out in public is not a high priority on issues I am working to change. The issues that I am actively part of are much more important to me than the random dog in a restaurant or grocery store.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: foodieX2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  monavano RE: foodieX2 May 21, 2014 09:28 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Agree- it's rude and entitled, but I'm also not going to get my panties in a twist.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Unless the dog craps on the floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  That would be bad.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: monavano
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    l
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    latindancer RE: monavano May 21, 2014 05:14 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <Unless the dog craps on the floor. That would be bad>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Oh, I've seen that happen…about a month ago in a pharmacy, actually. The owner in the pharmacy asked them to pick up their dog's crap, they refused and so the owner of the pharmacy cleaned it up themselves. Point is…there's very little recourse, under the law, for the owner to do anything else.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Again, this is obviously a regional issue…not everyone understands what's happening here in LA.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    There're lots of regional issues here that when I mention to a friend in say, Chicago recently, they just drop their jaw and shake their head.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It's funny.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      monavano RE: latindancer May 21, 2014 05:23 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Here on the east coast where I live, we don't see such an awful degree of entitlement.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It's been eye-opening to hear these stories, and no wonder the fierce opposition at times.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I can't even imagine, not in my wildest imagination, walking away from my dog's droppings outdoors, let alone indoors.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: monavano
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        l
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        latindancer RE: monavano May 21, 2014 06:19 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "LA Story" starring Steve Martin.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Did you ever watch this film?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It's a very hilarious, accurate description of this great city.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Inevitably, when dining with friends from LA, stories are told about some crazy thing someone's seen or experienced and everyone howls with laughter because we all get it. It's a different animal, this city.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        For the most part living in a city like this is entertaining…the bizarre, the crazy, the surreal….it's all here and most people, who're unfamiliar with the culture, can be a little shellshocked.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The girl, who I described, who left her dog poop on the floor in the pharmacy, wouldn't have cleaned it up in a billion years…it was beneath her. Her dog. But someone else, most likely, does the dirty work for her.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          monavano RE: latindancer May 21, 2014 06:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I do remember that movie!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Colonics- what????????????

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: monavano
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            foodieX2 RE: monavano May 21, 2014 06:42 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I just remember that whole thing about her name. He comments how its so normal until she says its spelled "capital S, small a, small n, capital D, small e, capital E"

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: foodieX2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                LMAshton RE: foodieX2 May 21, 2014 05:44 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yup. I'm disabled, but not visibly so. In fact, I appear perfectly healthy and have received many many comments to that effect. But that doesn't stop me from being disabled.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: latindancer
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FriedClamFanatic RE: latindancer May 19, 2014 07:07 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yeah...wear a mask........and sit next to the person who is allergic to perfumes, the other who can't even get near peanuts or anything with gluten

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: FriedClamFanatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          l
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          latindancer RE: FriedClamFanatic May 19, 2014 07:58 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          huh?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      foodieX2 RE: latindancer May 19, 2014 11:03 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Not tricky at all. If the place allows animals what's the harm in bringing your well behaved pet regardless of breed? And if someone doesn't care for them they can go elsewhere.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I avoid typical "family friendly" chains because many parents deem them to be a free for all (and the food isn't good). But even if the food was good I don't care to eat around screaming kids whose parents ignore them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If I disliked animals (which I don't) I would avoid the pet friendly places too.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: foodieX2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        l
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        latindancer RE: foodieX2 May 19, 2014 03:41 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The majority of businesses that are 'allowing' the animals in their businesses (of course there are exceptions) are allowing it because, at this point in CA, they have no recourse based on the way the law is written.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Their attorneys are looking into helping change the laws so it's worded where the owners of the businesses can ask the offenders questions without the threat of getting sued.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm well aware of the law and CA is beginning to take note.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There's a huge difference between the businesses that are pet friendly and the businesses that are having to put up with laws by legislators that are purely unenforceable.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        jilkat25 RE: latindancer May 25, 2014 11:57 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        People can't generally contract illnesses from birds, but birds can definitely catch illnesses from people. Birds should never be allowed near people (or pigs) who may carry the (airborne) influenza virus. You should be careful taking your bird into public places, especially during flu season.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Also, birds should never be allowed in places where high-heat cooking takes place (restaurants, kitchens in general), as cookware (especially that with non-stick coatings like teflon, but also some steel and cast-iron) releases chemicals at high heat that can kill a bird almost instantly. Most cookware with non-stick coatings actually has warnings about this on their packaging. This chemical probably isn't safe for dogs or cats (or people?), either, but the effect on them isn't instantly lethal like it is with birds.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                          latindancer RE: jilkat25 May 25, 2014 12:12 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I don't know of many people who take their birds out of their home and when they do they're very careful where they go with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          But, then again, I'm acquainted with very responsible pet owners who know their pet and wouldn't ever put their pet in harm's way.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            FriedClamFanatic RE: latindancer May 25, 2014 12:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of course!.a man walks into a bar with a parrot on his shoulder......the bartender says, hey Butthead, you can't bring that stinky vermin in here!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The parrot apologizes

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: jilkat25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            sunshine842 RE: jilkat25 May 25, 2014 01:57 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            there are several serious illnesses in the last several years (including SARS, I believe) that were passed from birds to people.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, it's rare, but when it does happen, it's hardcore serious.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                              PhilD RE: sunshine842 May 25, 2014 04:58 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Not SARS - that was I believe civet cats.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              H5N1(Avian Flu) is one though and it's very serious. Advice is to avoid areas with birds and poultry and definitely avoid touching them if there is an outbreak - luckily confined to Asia at the moment I believe.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                sunshine842 RE: PhilD May 25, 2014 05:09 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Bats: http://www.bbc.com/news/science-envir...

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  PhilD RE: sunshine842 May 25, 2014 05:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks - the cat theory was the one at the time - I was in Hong Kong back then and it was scary.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sunshine842 RE: PhilD May 25, 2014 05:32 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I had a customer who was on the airplane with Patient #1...his description of his virtual house arrest (military guards to enforce the quarantine!) was really unsettling.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      LexiFirefly RE: sunshine842 May 25, 2014 05:55 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My aunt was a cardiac nurse for patient zero here in Toronto (Scarborough if you want to be scientific.) Her story of hospital quarantine is terrifying.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bachchick RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 11:20 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        People are suggesting that if you are allergic you should stay away from places that allow dogs. We're not just talking about restaurants. There are dogs (not just service dogs, but little lap dogs that are clearly untrained to do anything but be cute) in grocery stores and doctor's offices. You might be able to avoid restaurants easily but there aren't that many choices for groceries or doctors. The old health laws worked fine. No pets allowed. There needs to be a strict certification for service dogs as there is for disabled placards. Of course there would be a few cheaters, but I would not run into 3-4 dogs at my local Trader Joe's or have to change doctors. Masks don't help; neither do medications.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                          chartreauxx RE: bachchick May 19, 2014 11:26 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          nobody said it would be mandatory that establishments allow animals - i just like it when places do allow my dog, and i wish there were more such places. not by any means suggesting EVERY place should allow my dog. it's just always nice when some do.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                          mwhitmore RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 11:50 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nope. If you really want to keep restaurants sanitary, you would need to ban people.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Danybear RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 11:54 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Maybe its time to get a python seeing eye snake or a boa constrictor protector and take it with me to the next restaurant I attend. Lets remember its a RESTAURANT, not a gd ZOO!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. ttoommyy RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 12:07 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              For me it has nothing to do with the sanitary aspect; if it did, I would not be eating out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              While I have no sane, rational reason for it, I do not want to dine with animals within the confines of the four walls of a restaurant. I am a human being. I just do not find it appetizing or the experience I am expecting when I dine out. Again, I can't give a specific reason, but I just do not like it.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                foodieX2 RE: ttoommyy May 19, 2014 12:12 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Curious- do you dine in homes that have pets?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ttoommyy RE: foodieX2 May 19, 2014 12:39 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sure. My brother owns a dog. But that is in a person's private home where I am not paying to dine. When I dine out and pay good $$ for it, I do not expect to dine with animals. I understand that people treat their pets like part of the family and some even call them "children" but they are in fact not human beings.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  And now I'll say something you probably did not guess... I love animals! Always have, since I was a kid. I just do not want to dine out with them. I'm not even a fan of them being in retail stores.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: ttoommyy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    foodieX2 RE: ttoommyy May 19, 2014 12:53 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Actually if the restaurant is privately owned and there are no health code laws against it the owners do have the right to allow pets. And when closed many often bring in their own.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I honestly was curious because as a dog owner I can attest that I do not clean my dining area as often as restaurant clean theres. And while I keep a very clean home I doubt my kitchen would pass a state inspection if they did a surprise visit. My dogs spend a lot of time there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    But it sounds like it not the cleanliness issue of dining with pets for you, as it seems to be for many on this thread, it's that when its you paying for the meal you want to do on your terms. Different perspective.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jerseygirl111 RE: ttoommyy May 19, 2014 06:24 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Could be pet hair flying around your dish?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  antiki RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 01:46 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dogs in restaurants can potentially be as big a health hazard as second hand smoke is.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    chartreauxx RE: antiki May 19, 2014 02:08 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    oh gosh, you're right! i forgot that recent study proving dogs cause cancer.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      monavano RE: antiki May 19, 2014 03:31 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My dog farts like a Howitzer, so yeah...

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        monkeyrotica RE: monavano May 19, 2014 04:44 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Pro tip: port wine cheese and Saint Bernards don't mix. Seriously, it's like a mustard gas attack on the Somme.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          chartreauxx RE: monkeyrotica May 19, 2014 04:51 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          oh my god. i can only imagine.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            monavano RE: monkeyrotica May 20, 2014 04:35 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My dogs lurvvvvvv them some beans ;(

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            James Cristinian RE: monavano May 23, 2014 06:53 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            88 or 105 millimeter?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: James Cristinian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              monavano RE: James Cristinian May 24, 2014 05:09 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ha! The bigger one ;-)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. viperlush RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 02:06 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Went to a bar in Baltimore one night. Cute friendly black lab walking about. Didn't get in the way and many didn't notice. At the end of the night, as we were getting ready to leave someone reminded us not to forget our dog. Nope not ours, or anyone else still present. Either a stray spent the whole evening chillin in the bar or someone forgot it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          And my cat just fared in my face. Do we really need animals farting in restaurants?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just throwing it out there.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            monavano RE: viperlush May 19, 2014 04:08 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            See above ;)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2. bagelman01 RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 02:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My eldest dog, Diesel, loves restaurant food as much as the next person. But he doesn't belong inside a restaurant.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It's either the takeout window or drive through and then he dines al fresco

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: bagelman01
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              chartreauxx RE: bagelman01 May 19, 2014 02:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cute pooch! i hear where you're coming from; otoh, i know when we go to dog friendly restaurants, my suki never bothers anyone. she sits right by my chair and/or lies under the table, wags her tail and introduces herself if someone says hi, but never bother anybody or begs and if she barks, she gets one warning and then we leave. i think either approach is fine - it's all down to your personal comfort level, and how your dog acts in a restaurant! of course we only ever go to places where it's known, understood and expected there will be several dogs present. i'd never drag her into an establishment where it wasn't the norm.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: chartreauxx
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bagelman01 RE: chartreauxx May 19, 2014 04:42 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Suki is just a little one who fits comfortably under the table.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                We have four dogs. Diesel and Charley are each in the 75 lb range and don't leave room for anyone's feet if they were under the table. Kirby our miniature Yorkshire Terrier or Zoey our little shi tzu would be appropriate sizes to be under the table but are not well behaved enough to dine in public.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My brother has an 11 year old Golden retriever who dines at dog friendly restaurants with bro and SIL. He is guide dog trained. Bro is diabetic and goes into low sugar shock, SIL is severe heart patient. This morning the Golden found SIL on the floor and ran to neighbors for help. SIL is now in hospital having 3 stents put in.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                As far as I'm concerned their dog can dine with us anytime.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: bagelman01
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                opinionatedchef RE: bagelman01 May 19, 2014 11:21 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bman, Thx so much for that big grin. I NEEDED that! Deserving of a caption contest!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  bagelman01 RE: opinionatedchef May 20, 2014 06:06 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I love my dogs (and my cats and daughters). BUT my attachment to my dogs and spoiling them doesn't give me the right to impose them upon others in a restaurant.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am a baby boomer, I both follow rules and question them. If I disagree with a rule, I work to change it, I don't ignore it in a sense of entitlement. That is just plain rude and ignorant.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  There is a time and place for every thing, and a public restaurant is not a place for your uninvited canine. In the case of legitimate service dogs, they are invited: by act of law.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I understand the restrauntuers in SoCal being afraid of sue happy patrons and not challenging patrons with lapdogs, it is very hard to lead a stable life in the land of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    latindancer RE: bagelman01 May 20, 2014 07:55 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank you.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: bagelman01
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ttoommyy RE: bagelman01 May 20, 2014 08:31 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "I am a baby boomer, I both follow rules and question them. If I disagree with a rule, I work to change it, I don't ignore it in a sense of entitlement. That is just plain rude and ignorant."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Amen! I think I will get a t-shirt with this statement on it. Thank you!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: ttoommyy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bagelman01 RE: ttoommyy May 20, 2014 12:26 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I appreciate your agreement.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It is all about civility, something that has disappeared since the me generation of the 1980s has become adults (age not maturation) and spawned another generation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If I wanted to take my dog inside a restaurant I'd make sure that it was a dig friendly restaurant and that it was permitted. I certainly wouldn't lie about my dog's status as a guide dog in order to bring the dog in where he/she truly is not wanted.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This reminds me of warnings from my parents some 50+ years ago. Never make up an excuse for not doing something saying something bad occurred (which hadn't) as you may be wishing it on yourself. Lie about needing a guide dog and you may just end up needing one much sooner than you think and the chances are that pocket puppy wouldn't be qualified to help you do everyday living.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: bagelman01
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          chowser RE: bagelman01 May 20, 2014 02:01 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Love your dog--if it were mine, she'd have jumped through the window but we're still in training. I'll go out on a limb and say there is no one here who thinks dogs belong in restaurants that don't accept dogs or agrees w/ the practice of pretending their dog is a service dog to bring them in so there are a lot of straw man arguments here. The OP asked whether dogs belong in restaurants, not whether people should pretend their dogs are service dogs, etc. I love dogs, love my puppy but I'd say no in most restaurants--there are exceptions, super casual places that have outdoor seating, beach places, sure. Let's say if I have to wear shoes, there should be no dogs, other than the allotted service animals.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: chowser
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            monavano RE: chowser May 20, 2014 02:37 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I agree that throwing out the poseurs who pass their dogs off as service animals is a wasted argument here, as I think CH dog owners are far more respectful than that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I know we'll be nervous when we take our puppy to a restaurant the first time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            He's not ready yet, but when he is, DH and I will be ready to pack the food up, pay and leave if he doesn't behave.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: monavano
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              chowser RE: monavano May 20, 2014 03:15 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              LOL, kind of like having kids. I need to learn to train our puppy because I can't imagine bringing her into a restaurant w/ all that food and others seem to manage fine. OTOH, all that noise and confusion and she'll probably be terrified and not leave our arms. I won't be bringing her to a restaurant any time soon, if at all.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: chowser
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tcamp RE: chowser May 20, 2014 04:43 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                IME, dogs are far more trainable than kids.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: tcamp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  chowser RE: tcamp May 20, 2014 04:51 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My kids were super easy, well behaved as toddlers so I smugly pat for knowing how to control the situation. Fast forward to now and my terrier rescue puppy (we thought she was a retriever...) is the one who's running out of control, all excited and friendly. Hence, she will not be seeing the inside of a restaurant, even on that absolutely loves dogs.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: chowser
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bagelman01 RE: chowser May 20, 2014 03:46 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have a long history of dogs who ate 'human food'

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              When I was 10 my parents got me a Golden Retriever, who lived with me for 17 years. He ate human food, as well as dog food. He adored vanilla ice cream cups. In those days we had a Good Humour man named Sam working our route. Good Humour had distributed white cardboard signs with a Blue G that you could put in your front window to let the route man know to stop. Our dog figured out how to stand the sign up in our foyer window. Sam would stop and bring a vanilla cup to the door, open it and set it down on the tile foyer floor for the dog. No one locked their houses in those days. Every Friday afternoon, Sam would stop and collect for whatever the dog ate during the week. The dog also enjoyed treats from the Dugan's Cake man. Life was so much simpler 50 years ago. No locked doors, all types of food deliveries and dogs were free to run about the neighborhood without a leash. and you could be sure if anyone was grilling the assorted dogs would all get a treat. Next door neighbor was a butcher, he had my dog's litter mate. My golden weighed 65 lbs, the butcher's Golden weighed 110 lbs. Mine lived 17 years, their's live 21 years on a diet of fresh beef every day and never an ounce of dog food.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: bagelman01
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                monavano RE: bagelman01 May 20, 2014 03:50 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Great story.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Our dogs get to enjoy doggy frozen treats from our soft serve place.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  rasputina RE: monavano May 20, 2014 04:46 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  We have a local place that gives out dog cones too.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2. re: bagelman01
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  chowser RE: bagelman01 May 20, 2014 04:53 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'll bet the Good Humor man loved your dog, too. My puppy loves human food--if she were allowed to roam the way they did 50 years ago, she would never come home!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: chowser
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bagelman01 RE: chowser May 20, 2014 05:00 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If like Pavlov you did the same thing at the same time everyday she might respond by coming home on schedule.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My dogs know that at 3:30 PM I'm outside cooking their food on the grill whether it's 90 degrees and sunny or 0 degrees and snowing and they're all alert and headed to the mudroom to be fed.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: bagelman01
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      monavano RE: bagelman01 May 20, 2014 05:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      One of my dogs (and one that passed last year) knows exactly what time dinner is served.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It doesn't matter if it's daylight savings, summer or winter.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: monavano
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        PhilD RE: monavano May 20, 2014 05:08 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you think they can tell the time or do you think they maybe picking up on behavioural cue's that you exhibit?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: PhilD
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          monavano RE: PhilD May 20, 2014 05:24 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I think it's cues, but it really is uncanny.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: PhilD
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            chowser RE: PhilD May 20, 2014 05:26 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've read and been told by trainers that they have an uncanny sense of time.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: chowser
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              EM23 RE: chowser May 20, 2014 06:46 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              My mom would be cleaning the bathroom or doing the laundry downstairs and our Belgian Shepherd would whine, moan and bark until she was let out to meet us at the bus stop a half mile away. Every day, for years. Dogs are the shizz…

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: PhilD
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bagelman01 RE: PhilD May 20, 2014 07:13 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If I'm delayed in my office (which is attached to the house) one of the older dogs will come to the door and start making noises until I get up and head towards the garage and the grill.................................

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I avoid making appointments after 2 PM or before 4:15 PM. Working for myself that's not a problem. Occasionally I have to impose on Mrs B or Miss B to cook for the dogs.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thingmaker RE: bagelman01 May 21, 2014 01:03 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If there is a heaven, this is what it's like- except the ice cream is free and all dogs live forever. I'm actually tearing up right now!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Growing up in a small town in the 70s we never locked our doors. Looking back it seems incredible but it happened. You don't know what you've got til it's gone, and all that jazz. ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We have 4 rescue dogs. Being rescue dogs, they all have their individual behavioral quirks... AND they're huge and slobbery, shed constantly, are overly affectionate and smell like feet no matter how often they are bathed. They're completely unbearable and I love them! :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        However I'd never even think about inflicting their awesomeness on innocent strangers just trying to eat a peaceful dinner. ;)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: thingmaker
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          sunshine842 RE: thingmaker May 21, 2014 03:35 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          with 4, I do get it...plus, it's just a PITA for you to get them all loaded up, find room for them all to sit at a restaurant.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          We recently took in a second pup who needed a new home, and just adding the second has narrowed down the places we take them.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: sunshine842
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            thingmaker RE: sunshine842 May 21, 2014 10:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            At this point our dogs are pretty much limited to neighborhood dog parades (happens once a year) and the nearby nature preserve. There's a waterfall there and they love to swim in the natural rock pools.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Getting them all into the car is a big production. I should film it one of these days. ;)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: bagelman01
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      rasputina RE: bagelman01 May 20, 2014 04:45 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I wouldn't want my dog digging at a restaurant even if it is dig friendly.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Querencia RE: ttoommyy May 20, 2014 06:46 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Another example: News here yesteday was a woman who attended a trade fair as a vendor bringing her 10-day-old infant along. Fair has a no-children rule and asked her to leave and take the baby with her. So of course she raised a ruckus. Rules are for everyone but the special people.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Isolda RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 02:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Doesn't bother me one whit.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. firecooked RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 05:01 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I get the offended comments because others are breaking the law, and sometimes have badly behaved dogs that shouldn't be around people (restaurant or not), but unhealthy? A lot of us have dogs in our houses that dine with us, and "unhealthy" is not a concern. Do you have issues with dining at someones house when they have dogs (assuming the house is reasonably clean, the dog reasonably groomed and behaved)?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: firecooked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    PhilD RE: firecooked May 19, 2014 05:41 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    No issue with a dog at a all. But that is is they are on the floor, but if they are on a seat "eating at the table" or the serving dishes are put on the floor I would have a problem. The same is true when I see cats sitting on prep surfaces of kitchens.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dogs and cats do pick-up and carry things that can be pretty nasty for humans. The worms/parasites found in dog faeces can cause blindness in humans if ingested. If the dog stays on the floor fine, but if the dog is at the table or using the same bowls as humans then there is a risk of transmission.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I love dogs in restaurants and pubs - but only if they are not being treated like surrogate humans and stay on the ground.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: PhilD
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paulj RE: PhilD May 19, 2014 07:19 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Aren't you making a bit of jump from worms in feces to bowls that a dog might lick clean? Normally restaurant dishes and serving bowls are sent through a high temperature dish washer before they get used again.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        PhilD RE: paulj May 19, 2014 07:27 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I thought it was good practice if a pet owner not to mix up pet bowls with the ones you use yourself. Agree, good cleaning practices and high temperature washing helps, but just prefer to remove the vector - dogs put their noses into all sorts of places that I don't want to know about.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My wife always say dogs are not people they like being treated like dogs. And i think thats good advice. I live in a country with a major epidemic of a dog disease that stops them being able to walk so they go around in a stroller and that where their fur needs to be shorn off and they get dressed in kids clothes. Each to their own but the should not be eating at the table sitting on a chair. Weird.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    rasputina RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 05:55 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't care as long as the dog is reasonably well behaved. If it's not using the restaurant like a bathroom or a fight ring I'm fine with them being there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I do find it slightly amusing that so many people act like dogs immediately become unsanitary or disease vectors the second they leave their home.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Are you only friends with people that don't have pets and kids? Do you never eat at anyones house who has a pet?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. petek RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 06:24 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If it's not a legit service dog, it has no place in a restaurant or food store.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: petek
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sunshine842 RE: petek May 19, 2014 09:45 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        unless that restaurant has a sign saying that dogs are welcomed on the patio, in jurisdictions where this is legal.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          petek RE: sunshine842 May 20, 2014 02:24 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Even on a patio I still find it kinda gross, legal or otherwise..

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: petek
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            sunshine842 RE: petek May 20, 2014 03:47 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            why?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Do you not visit the homes of friends with dogs?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            They're below table level, so there's really nothing they could do in the way of bodily functions that could end up even near your plate....and I've yet to meet a dog owner who would take an incontinent pooch out in public.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            You do realize that birds and insects sit ON the table on patios, right?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              petek RE: sunshine842 May 20, 2014 12:13 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "You do realize that birds and insects sit ON the table on patios, right?"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nothing we can do about the birds and the bees, right?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm just glad I live in a city that doesn't allow pets in restaurants and grocery stores. Gross...

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: petek
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                monavano RE: petek May 20, 2014 12:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                That's always been my first thought when people think dogs are so dirty and shouldn't be allowed in patio seating.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Rats, cock roaches, birds, squirrels.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                All their dander, hair, feathers and poop, so puleez!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: monavano
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  bachchick RE: monavano May 21, 2014 11:11 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Of course I avoid restaurants with roaches and rats as well as dogs or cats.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2. re: petek
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  sunshine842 RE: petek May 20, 2014 07:11 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  do you not have friends who have dogs?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          DebinIndiana RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 06:59 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have never seen a dog in a grocery store or restaurant (Edit: except seeing eye dogs). And I hope I do not. And at a doctor's office?! Really?!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I do see many dogs at the farmers' market, and I think it would be better if they stayed home. And I do love dogs. I love them on the greenway, and walking the neighborhood and at the park and picking the kids up from school, but not at a restaurant.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            latindancer RE: DebinIndiana May 19, 2014 07:43 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I really, based on the responses here, think this is a regional issue.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              monavano RE: latindancer May 20, 2014 04:39 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yes, and funny, because of threads like this, we've taken our puppy to Lowes!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Not that we're making it a habit, hellz no!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              We are training him to be a therapy dog and the more exposure, the better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So, it was a quick, 5-minute see and sniff while DH picked something up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              We'll definitely do it again as he gets more composed. We just wanted to be sure that the first time, he had the whole potty training thing under control.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              No peeing on the lumber!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: monavano
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                greygarious RE: monavano May 20, 2014 09:49 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I hope that wanting to have a therapy dog was not a major consideration when you decided to get a puppy. Beyond basic obedience commands, therapy dogs don't need training, just socialization and some exposure to things like elevators and mobile or freestanding medical equipment. Beyond that, it's the individual dog's temperament that makes it a suitable therapy dog - or not. A confident dog is essential and while you can encourage this by exposing your pup to new people and surroundings, it won't turn an inherently timid one into the life of the party. Nor is it fair to the animal to push it into situations for which it isn't cut out. You might as well expect your dog to whinny. My greyhound therapy dog liked nothing better than to lean against people for endless petting. At the same time I had another greyhound who was very insecure and would have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                unhappy in new surroundings. The therapy hound was very calm around other dogs, unfazed by crutches and whirring machinery, and obeyed basic commands at home. He got a "veteran's preference" certification because away from home, with lots of people and dogs around, he was too interested in leaning on people to sit on command. The group administrator said that he was obviously a born therapy dog and gave him a social promotion. As months passed, we were all surprised to discover that he had a phobia of very shiny floors. He jammed on the brakes when faced with certain lobbies and ultimately started to hang back whenever I walked him toward the entrance to a new building. So in fairness to my dog, we withdrew from the program. Wide-ranging early exposure to new situations can minimize the risk of puppies developing phobias but if you get an older pup, or adult, you may have no idea what past experiences have made their mark on him.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2. JerryMe RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 07:24 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, beyond - I don't do fins, feathers or fur and am weary of having a dog investigate my freaking crotch in public. Real service animals would never, ever do that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The wee pooches that sit in purses? One sneezed in my drink at a bar when the "owner" hoisted it upon the bar top. "Poor baby has allergies" was the owner's comment. Ugh.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Slam me all the way to hell, but no - please for the LOG leave your poor pets at home and don't make a person with a disability get more shunned than they already are.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: JerryMe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              monavano RE: JerryMe May 20, 2014 04:40 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Who the f*ck "shuns" people with disabilities?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: monavano
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                mcf RE: monavano May 20, 2014 07:25 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Lots and lots of folks. I'm pretty sure that's why we needed the ADA.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: monavano
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  globocity RE: monavano May 20, 2014 11:39 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Are you serious with this question?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Please keep in mind disabilities range from physical to neurological (with covert signs).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Many parents of children with Autism can testify to being shunned.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: globocity
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    monavano RE: globocity May 20, 2014 11:53 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I've treated patients with disabilities for over 2 decades, so you're preaching to the clinical expert ;-)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: monavano
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      globocity RE: monavano May 22, 2014 07:56 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My apologies then. I agree that no one should shun those with disabilities. But it is rampant.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: globocity
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      latindancer RE: globocity May 22, 2014 08:41 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <Many parents of children with autism can testify to being shunned>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, that's too bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      As a lifelong relative of special needs people (autism being part of the pathology) I've noticed that people are willing to bend over backwards to accommodate their needs. I don't think it's really fair to automatically assume people are going to 'shun' them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      A few people I know who are parents to autistic children/adults have built-in radar that detects even the slightest deviation in behavior from others who're around their children.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I was on the elevator recently with a family whose child appeared to be autistic…
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      They allowed the child to push every single button on the wall of the elevator so the rest of us stopped on every single one of the 15 floors….to get to the top floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      They were also going to the top so we all endured the behavior of the child who was allowed to kick his father, scream at the top of his lungs and basically run around all of us in the elevator. Nobody said a word but I can assure you the parents, if they had any sense at all, felt the tension. Did the parents feel they were being shunned? I have no idea…but people like that, who're unwilling to try and reign in that kind of behavior, seem clueless to those around them and would then blame someone who, inevitably, will speak up and call them on their enabling.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2. steve h. RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 07:27 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm always happy to see a house cat in a bodega. Well-behaved dogs in a place they're allowed works for me, too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dogs of all stripe sitting with their owners outside at tables like the have at Zuni on Market (San Francisco) have always put a smile on my face.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ill-behaved children, self-centered/loud-mouthed adults are issues much more irritating than well-behaved dogs in a venue that accepts them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Get a grip.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: steve h.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    monavano RE: steve h. May 20, 2014 04:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    You're my type of people when I bring my dog to eat outside.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The problem that most "haters" here don't get, is that we dog owners don't want you to bother US!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Is my dog the first dog you've ever seen? Have you never seen a dog in public? What is the big deal that I have a dog lying quietly at my feet, under the table? Can you just go on with your day without cooing over my dog and touching him??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Go away!!!!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: monavano
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      chartreauxx RE: monavano May 20, 2014 10:50 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      so true. with a puppy in training, it's a daily battle to prevent people from diving face-first toward her screaming "kyoooooot!" and encouraging her to jump up on them. we are currently working on NOT jumping up, and believe me - you think it's cute now, when she weighs 25 pounds. you WON'T think it's cute when she's north of 60 - which she will be. soon. please don't greet, feed, pet, interact with or in any way bother my dog without asking me first. and no, asking doesn't guarantee i'm going to say yes. if we're in the middle of a training session, going somewhere, or simply not in the mood - i'll tell you no. people take an amazing amount of offense to that.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: chartreauxx
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        monavano RE: chartreauxx May 20, 2014 11:16 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I hear you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        People think they're being nice and tolerant when they allow dogs to jump on them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My neighbor keeps saying "Oh, that's OK, I don't mind", but I do!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sedimental RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 07:45 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am on the I don't mind at all side. If they are clean and well behaved...that goes for dogs and humans both.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am far more disgusted with people bringing children to restaurants that are not meant to be "family friendly" and then they don't leave when the kids act up. I have never had a dog ruin my restaurant meal, but I have had several humans ruin them.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: sedimental
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      monavano RE: sedimental May 20, 2014 04:47 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I've never seen a dog act up while dining outside.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Never.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I dined at a Bonefish Grill the other day and 2 women ( mom and daughter, I guess) brought in an infant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Baby cried for a few seconds, then quieted down while they gulped down their food, then became fussy again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      They packed up SO FAST, and apologized while the rest of their food got packed up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Every. Single. Person- in the vicinity supported them and told them to relax. We were all fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mom and Grandma deserved to eat!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It takes a village and the village has babies, and dogs at times!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: sedimental
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rasputina RE: sedimental May 20, 2014 06:27 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I've had more obnoxious adults ruin a meal than kids even.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. John E. RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 10:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have not yet read this thread. Unless the dog is a 'service' animal, I do not wish to see or dine with it near me either indoors or outdoors.( I do not wish to see it across the patio either. Leave your dog at home like any civilized person would do.)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: John E.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          sunshine842 RE: John E. May 20, 2014 03:48 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          do you not have friends who have a dog?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            petek RE: sunshine842 May 20, 2014 12:22 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <do you not have friends who have a dog?>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            They're my friends(not some random stranger) and I'm not paying them to have dinner there.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: petek
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              sunshine842 RE: petek May 20, 2014 07:13 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              how do you justify the theory that dogs of people you don't know are somehow more contaminated than the dogs of people you *do* know?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Dog-friendly restaurants advertise the fact -- it's not like it's a surprise.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                petek RE: sunshine842 May 20, 2014 07:45 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                how do you justify the theory that dogs of people you don't know are somehow more contaminated than the dogs of people you *do* know? >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Umm, that's not what I was saying at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                You asked if I had friends with dogs. Yes I do. I dine with them at their home, not in a restaurant with strangers and their dogs. Big difference.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: petek
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  sunshine842 RE: petek May 20, 2014 08:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  why?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  How is it that you can bear to be around your friends' flea-bitten, worm-ridden beasts, but not across an outdoor patio from the dog of someone you don't know?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Your friends' dogs are no more or less likely to be carrying something than the guy across the patio's dog.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    petek RE: sunshine842 May 21, 2014 03:46 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Let it go....

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: petek
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      monavano RE: petek May 21, 2014 03:56 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Adel Dazeem ;) say's "Let It Go"

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: petek
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rasputina RE: petek May 21, 2014 06:52 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It's a legit question.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: rasputina
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          FattyDumplin RE: rasputina May 21, 2014 09:54 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Kind of a silly question. answer is pretty obvious right? I hate dogs. I think they are disgusting creatures for the most part. I know it's so counter to what so many think, but to each their own. But, if a good friend of mine has dogs, yeah I'll suck it up because the pleasure of the company outweighs my distaste for dogs. And unforutnately, I can't tell my friend its illegal to keep the dog in his own home :) But out in a restaurant, I don't need to deal with it, its not legal (in most cases) and so yeah, I'll fight against it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          To take a kind of in between example.... if there's a resaturant that does allow dogs? No matter how good it is, I'm not going. Food will never trump my dislike for dogs. Friendship will.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: FattyDumplin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Firegoat RE: FattyDumplin May 21, 2014 10:12 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yay! More room in the restaurants that invite dogs for the rest of us!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: Firegoat
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              FattyDumplin RE: Firegoat May 21, 2014 10:33 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Haha. Touche. Guess I set myself up for that one.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: FattyDumplin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                monavano RE: FattyDumplin May 21, 2014 11:01 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Well, it just makes sense to vote with your wallet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Why spend your money if dogs bother you?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Are you talking about restaurants that allow dogs inside? Or just the patio/sidewalk?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Both?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: monavano
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  FattyDumplin RE: monavano May 21, 2014 11:23 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  inside, mostly. I think it's an asian thing... outside i'm not as concerned about, but the inside of a house / restaurant needs to be pristine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  btw, loved your adel dazeem reference. One of the funnier TV moments i've ever seen.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: FattyDumplin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    monavano RE: FattyDumplin May 21, 2014 11:31 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I was Travoltifying everything for a couple days there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    We only take our dogs (one at a time) to outdoor seating areas and only if the dog can be at our feet and out of the way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    We don't tie them up and keep them on the other side of a fence.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    So basically, we're limited to what places we can go and we're picky about the situation being as optimal as possible for everyone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    For example, if my dog is going to have to occupy space where people have to walk, we won't do it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Only certified assistance dogs should ever go inside and I can't see bringing our dogs inside, even if allowed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm appreciative enough that they are allowed outdoors and truly, most dining, I want to just relax completely, which with a dog, doesn't happen.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: monavano
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      FattyDumplin RE: monavano May 21, 2014 01:12 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      people like you are why i'm so conflicted about this topic, despite my innate dislike for dogs. i'd say the vast majority of dog owners are like you, who are considerate and thoughtful in how they bring their dogs into public. it's the few bad apples who really do ruin it all, like the ones who bring the dog who can't be quieted, or sit their dog on the table or chair, etc. then again, i guess this is so true for so many things in life.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mcf RE: sunshine842 May 21, 2014 07:45 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        When you go to a friend's home, you expect to encounter the dog and you also have good information usually about how clean, non smelly or well cared for it is. I used to visit friends whose bloodhound's spittle just flew everywhere and I went anyway.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I would not expect to be forced to tolerate that in an environment where I'm paying for a pleasant experience. Dog lovers are not all alike, and not all similarly diligent about canine hygiene nor behavior. I don't want to have to take my chances and pay for it.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: mcf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          petek RE: mcf May 21, 2014 02:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          @mcf ^^^^^
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This right here!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm not a dog hater. I really like them. I just choose not to dine with them(if I can) I don't think they're "flea bitten mutts" and the only one I have to dine with regularly is my sisters pooch who is well behaved and cleaner than most humans I know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I can tolerate them(dogs) on a very casual patio(Starbucks, local dive watering hole etc) where I'm not eating but a fancy patio when I'm having a full meal, no thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just accept it and don't get your feathers so ruffled about it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Cheers! :)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: petek
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ttoommyy RE: petek May 22, 2014 08:06 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Absolutely agree and said something similar to this way up above when this thread was a lot shorter. I actually love dogs; I have all my life. I just don't want them dining with me when I am out for an evening at a restaurant. Simple.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: John E.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                monavano RE: John E. May 20, 2014 04:47 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Good luck with that.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: John E.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jpan99 RE: John E. May 20, 2014 05:10 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I can understand your feelings, especially if you don't like dogs. However I'm a dog lover and I seek out dog friendly establishments as in those that allow dogs on a patio, not inside.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  In the same sense I don't want to sit next to a table with a baby or screaming kids, either indoors or out. I don't have kids and I'm not all that fond of them. I would say leave your screaming baby at home so I can dine in peace.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Jpan99
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    monavano RE: Jpan99 May 20, 2014 05:29 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, my dogs don't fuss or poop or pee or want to suck on my boob while I'm dining.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    That said, I'm supportive of responsible parents bringing any age kids into a dining room as long as they are willing to leave when the crying starts.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: monavano
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Jerseygirl111 RE: monavano May 20, 2014 06:52 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Please don't bring breast feeding into this.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: Jerseygirl111
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        monkeyrotica RE: Jerseygirl111 May 21, 2014 03:40 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Except this becomes an issue when the Mommy Happy Hour and the Doggie Yappy Hour crowds each want to take over the patio.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: monkeyrotica
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tcamp RE: monkeyrotica May 21, 2014 07:13 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Does it have to be either/or? I'm in favor of (well-behaved) kids and dogs. Also, they tend not to become well-behaved without practice.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: Jpan99
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      pamf RE: Jpan99 May 21, 2014 06:56 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Since this thread keeps going, I am going to jump in here with an (possibly off topic) anecdote about a meal that was made unpleasant because the dog owners refused to attend to their dog. This is a very small neighborhood restaurant, but they do have two or three tables out on the sidewalk where you can easily sit with your dog. When you are sitting outside you receive the same service that you would inside. But instead of taking an available outside table and keeping their dog with them, these two people tied the dog up to a tree and took an inside table. The poor little dog who could see his people sitting inside, just about 20 feet away, barked and whined almost constantly the entire time. They never once went out to comfort the dog and seemed oblivious to it. I was annoyed by the noise, but I also felt really bad for that little dog.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: pamf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        monavano RE: pamf May 21, 2014 07:03 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I would have called 911 and said someone tied a dog up and abandoned it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It pisses me off that much when people do that to even run into a store, let alone leave the poor thing for an entire dinner.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: monavano
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          LeoLioness RE: monavano May 21, 2014 07:16 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You would take possibly resources away from an actual emergency to tend to what you know to be clearly a non-emergency just to make a point?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: LeoLioness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            monavano RE: LeoLioness May 21, 2014 07:19 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            For an abandoned dog?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Same if I see a dog in a hot car.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If the dog was tied up and barking and obviously in distress, I'd confront the owners in the restaurant and warn them that I would call 911 if they didn't tend to their dog immediately.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: monavano
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              pamf RE: monavano May 21, 2014 07:39 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Well, the dog was in their (everyone's) line of sight and hearing, so it wasn't actually abandoned.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It was more like a baby crying or kids running around kind of an annoyance.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It would have been nice if restaurant management had told the owners to attend to their dog. But they did not. I try not to confront strangers in public, because people can get crazy, but I did make a comment to my dining companion as they were leaving that they overheard and the response was "FU MYOB".

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: pamf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                monavano RE: pamf May 21, 2014 09:37 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Wow, I guess you could have surmised the kind of people they are!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                That's just incredible- in a really bad way!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: monavano
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                mcf RE: monavano May 21, 2014 07:46 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It wasn't abandoned nor in a hot car, it was inconvenienced. Not something I'd do, but not worth diverting life saving resources like the hot car situ, either.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: monavano
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  LeoLioness RE: monavano May 21, 2014 08:37 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  But in the situation you initially described, you knew this dog wasn't "abandoned" and it wasn't in a hot car.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: LeoLioness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    monavano RE: LeoLioness May 21, 2014 09:39 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'd at least speak with the manager, that's for sure.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Only an asshat would leave their distressed dog by the curb while they dined.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: monavano
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      latindancer RE: monavano May 21, 2014 05:18 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Then there are alot of 'asshats' out there.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        monavano RE: latindancer May 21, 2014 05:24 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        LA sounds like it's chock a block full of them!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: pamf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tcamp RE: pamf May 21, 2014 07:12 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Another anecdote/cute thing I saw yesterday. I walked past a pub that has a fairly large outdoor seating area surrounded by a low metal fence. I guess dogs aren't allowed on the patio because every table (10 or so) inside the perimeter (on the fence line) was occupied by dog owners with the dogs themselves, leashed, right outside the fence. They all had the same water bowls so maybe the pub provided those.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: tcamp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                monavano RE: tcamp May 21, 2014 07:20 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Many places provide bowls.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It's nice- some even one-use disposable bowls plopped right down in front of fido at the table.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: pamf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                chowser RE: pamf May 21, 2014 07:16 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                We all have had unpleasant meals ruined by others, whether they're obnoxious adults, children, dogs, birds, whatever. We have to realize in a society that you take the bad with the good. I think the worst meals for me have been those who've been overly/loudly/obnoxiously drunk but I'd never advocate for removing all alcohol! Just take care of the offending people.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            3. re: John E.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              LeoLioness RE: John E. May 20, 2014 07:06 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It's not "uncivilized" to bring a dog to an establishment that allows them, just because you don't like it.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: LeoLioness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Firegoat RE: LeoLioness May 20, 2014 08:29 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                More than agree. My dog goes where it is legal and welcomed by the establishment. Usually on the patio. If you don't like it. Don't go there, or don't go on the patio. I don't go to Chuckie Cheese.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: John E.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                EAH RE: John E. May 22, 2014 12:10 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Eat indoors then.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                For us responsible and respectful dog owners, the only option we have when traveling with our dogs is the patio. Hopefully far away and out of sight from you.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: EAH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  j
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  James Cristinian RE: EAH May 22, 2014 10:25 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Where I live we have 6 months of 90 degree weather so a cool day on the patio is a treat. There is an option to traveling with dogs, it's called a kennel. I certainly don't travel with my cat.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: James Cristinian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    chartreauxx RE: James Cristinian May 22, 2014 11:08 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    suggesting someone bring a dog with them then leave them (presumably in a car) in a kennel, in 90 degree weather, is ridiculous and ignorant. unless you are trying to get someone to murder their dog by taking such advice.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    if you hate dogs so much, frequent establishments that do not permit them. responsible owners taking their pets where said pets are welcome, is a completely appropriate choice. and not yours to make - that's up to the establishments and the pet owners. many places do not welcome dogs. eat there, and don't disturb my experience (and my dog's) with your stink-eye on a patio or in a restaurant where we have every right to be.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: chartreauxx
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      James Cristinian RE: chartreauxx May 22, 2014 11:33 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm ignorant?!? I'm talking about a kennel, not a pet carrier. Read definition number two!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://dictionary.reference.com/brows...

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: James Cristinian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        foodieX2 RE: James Cristinian May 22, 2014 11:55 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Telling pet owners to kennel their dogs is the equivalent to telling parents to "get a sitter" Sometimes it's just not possible-financially or feasibility. It usually the childless and pet-less that breezily throw that out.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We usually go on pet friendly vacations. We didn't decide to have pets to leave them locked up. We plan our vacation to be places where the the dogs are welcome. To kennel our dogs would cost upwards of $100-$200 a DAY. In addition we want them with us. Our son would not even entertain going some place with out them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As had been said many times-I only bring my dogs where they are welcome. We go to dog friendly beaches and parks, restaurants a and cafés, B&B's, etcetera. They are clearly advertised as such so they are easy to avoid if you don't like it.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: foodieX2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          pamf RE: foodieX2 May 22, 2014 01:49 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Totally agree on the pet-friendly vacations. We plan our trips around dog friendly lodging, restaurants and wineries. I have posted quite a few recommendations on my local boards about our favorite locations.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          For the few days a year that I have to travel for work, I am lucky to have a great person who walks him regularly and has a great bond with him, and that I trust, who will board him in her own home. The local kennel would not be an option.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. re: James Cristinian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          chartreauxx RE: James Cristinian May 23, 2014 09:59 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ken·nel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ˈkenl/Submit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          noun
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          a small shelter for a dog or cat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          verb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          put (a dog or cat) in a kennel.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          i don't need to go to a 2nd definition when the 1st is what i meant.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3. re: chartreauxx
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          mcf RE: chartreauxx May 22, 2014 01:55 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          A boarding place is called a kennel. A pet carrier is just that.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        4. re: James Cristinian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          l
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          latindancer RE: James Cristinian May 22, 2014 11:46 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          …or a dog sitter or a house sitter with emphasis on the dog.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Agree. Dogs don't have to travel everywhere with their owner. Lots and lots of options out there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Not all dogs love going out anywhere other than perhaps up and down the block for a walk.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            j
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            James Cristinian RE: latindancer May 22, 2014 12:00 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            When I was a kid the neighbors would give my brother and me a couple of bucks to feed their dogs when they went on vacation and let them run around in the backyard. We'd play with them and it was always a highlight of a 1960's summer filled with 95 degree days. I still remember the manual can opener and smell of Ken-L-Ration. Not a dog hater at all, chartreaux. Shall I tell you about my departed Rocky the Wonder Dog? He never saw a restaurant patio but did enjoy a fast food burger on the way to the beach.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: James Cristinian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              l
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              latindancer RE: James Cristinian May 22, 2014 12:24 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So funny you mention this…

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              My brothers had the same job during the summer when families, typically, went on a vacation. It was normal summer vacation work for the neighborhood kids.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The dog loved it, my brothers loved the dog and the money and everyone was happy.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              foodieX2 RE: latindancer May 22, 2014 12:08 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Why should I pay a dog sitter, who get $25 an hour, slightly less for the overnights, when there are so many options out there that allow pets?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              There are also many pets who enjoy going on hikes, swimming at beaches, riding in cars and being with their family ad opposed to bring cooped up in a kennel or left with a stranger. Never mind the how hard it is to find licensed, bonded and trustworthy sitters.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: foodieX2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                l
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                latindancer RE: foodieX2 May 22, 2014 12:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My dog doesn't like to go anywhere other than up and down my block. She's old and she doesn't particularly like other dogs…probably fear or some other thing she learned before we rescued her. We tried for about 2 days (longer) to socialize her with a trainer and then decided it wasn't something she liked….seemed like it was for the trainer, the snoopy 'gotta socialize your dog' nut bags and so we stopped.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I pay a housesitter. They love each other and I'm perfectly happy and content to leave her with her.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                But, of course, I pay for lots and lots of things regarding my beloved dog. She's worth it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Take your dog to wherever she's welcomed…I couldn't care less.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  John E. RE: latindancer May 22, 2014 12:46 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Several years ago my brother's family went on a three week camping trip across the country. That is much too long to have a golden retriever in the car. They had some neighbors who had a daughter in my SIL's home daycare business (I have no idea where those children were for the three weeks). Anyway, that family took the dog into their home. They took the dog on many activities and made the dog a member of their family. Upon their return, my brother and SIL went to get the dog. The mom had taken photos of the dog at various places and put them into a photo album. That dog had more fun than his family did on the camping trip.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2. re: foodieX2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  mcf RE: foodieX2 May 22, 2014 01:58 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It's so easy to find them; most of the techs at your vet's office do it, if it's like any vet I've been to.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: mcf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    foodieX2 RE: mcf May 22, 2014 06:14 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't find it "easy" to find someone I trust to come and stay in my home <shrug>. Like the kennels we have used in the past, our nannies and our dog sitters we do our due diligence and wont hire relative strangers. And while I love our vet and the techs I do not know anything about them personally and have no reason to trust them in my home.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    We do happen to have someone we trust, both to take our dogs into her home and another who will come to ours. It was not "easy" to find them but they are great for backup care and emergencies. But just because I have them doesn't mean I want to use them, it's only for the occasions when our dogs can't come with us. And if either of them were already booked I wouldnt find it "easy" to find a last minute replacement

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I just find it so…dismissive when folks say "Oh just get a baby sitter!" "Just get a dog/house sitter!" As if it is the easiest thing do last minute and as if money is no issue. I spare no expense in caring for them but choosing to spend money on something I nor the dogs needs is pound foolish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    However, like I said up thread, we didn't decide to become dog owners just leave them behind. If folks are happy to do that, good for them, buts its is not what we choose to do. Thats why its great there are so many pet friendly places out there. We have more fun with our dogs than without them.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: foodieX2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      sunshine842 RE: foodieX2 May 22, 2014 07:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm with you, foodie -- there are places where our boys just can't go -- places where we have to fly, places where the activity for which we're traveling is not dog-friendly, etc....nd we're lucky enough to have a great dog sitter who doesn't charge the moon and stars.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      But we like our dogs and we like being with them (and they *love* being with us) -- ours also love going in the car and being sociable...so we travel with them when it's feasible.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: foodieX2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        l
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        latindancer RE: foodieX2 May 23, 2014 08:41 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <"Oh just get a baby sitter! "Just get a dog/house sitter" As if it is the easiest thing to do last minute and as if money is no issue>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Your interpretation of what's been talked on this board regarding dog sitting is interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We vetted several housesitters/dog sitters before anyone was allowed in my home. I don't allow anyone in my home unless I know them, trust them, and have a good insight into their background. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You like taking your dog with you everywhere? Awesome! As I said, 'upthread'…my dog doesn't like traveling, she doesn't like other dogs and I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to make her uncomfortable in places that welcome dogs. I'm not the only dog owner who has this perspective…hence: dog sitters, house sitters, pet hotels, dog walkers, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Just because people don't take their dogs with them everywhere doesn't mean they don't enjoy and love their dogs. It doesn't make them better owners of their pets.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It's just a different way of taking care of them and making sure their physical/emotional welfare comes first.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: foodieX2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          l
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          latindancer RE: foodieX2 May 23, 2014 08:55 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <nannies>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I hear the same argument from friends with no children but hesitate to leave their dogs with professional dog sitters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You say, "we didn't decide to become dog owners just to leave them behind".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In my case,I didn't have children just to leave them behind with a nanny.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          There are professionals for everything, who are bonded, background checked and vetted.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          It just depends on our own individual priorities/agendas, wants and needs.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            mcf RE: latindancer May 23, 2014 09:09 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Oh, brother.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yeah, those of us who worked only did it so we could unload our children on nannies.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Shitty analogy.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: mcf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              l
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              latindancer RE: mcf May 23, 2014 09:44 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Why is it a 'shitty analogy'?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Choices are made to leave the dog at home with a dog sitter when I can't take my dog with me...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Choices are made to leave a child at home with a nanny when you have to work?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              We all make choices….right?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                mcf RE: latindancer May 23, 2014 11:06 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nevermind.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: mcf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  foodieX2 RE: mcf May 23, 2014 12:47 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Smart choice.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: foodieX2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            mcf RE: foodieX2 May 23, 2014 09:07 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I can't account for what makes you unomfortable about having relative strangers in your home. But your vet's office is not going to chance putting out the cards of their techs for pet sitting if they're not very sure of them. And in my case, with three cats under my roof, I got to know the techs, their way with my cats and would feel safe using them. That was "easy."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            In the past, I found it "easy" to ask neighborhood friends for reccos, or to hire an older child I knew very well. But I don't suffer from discomfort allowing others into my home, as long as I know them or know them to be responsible and well vetted (pun intended).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            No comment about enjoying your dogs with you where they're welcome; that's a no brainer.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: mcf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The Chowhound Team RE: mcf May 23, 2014 02:51 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Folks, this is getting pretty far afield from anything that actually has to do with dogs in restaurants. Can we ask that people circle back to the main topic now? Thanks.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: latindancer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        h
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hobbert RE: latindancer May 22, 2014 01:51 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I board my 2 cats at a pet hotel. It's $50/day for a kitty apartment with a window. They have play time and the staff are really lovely. It's a bit expensive but the quality of care is worth it to me. No way they want to hang out in long car rides or ride on a plane or stay in a foreign place. Plus, I'd have to carry their food and medicine and toys. It's just ridiculous.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: Hobbert
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          mcf RE: Hobbert May 22, 2014 01:59 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have a dependable person who comes to my home so the cats aren't unsettled. She comes twice daily, feeds, injects insulin, cleans litter, plays with them for 30 minutes each time.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: mcf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            h
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hobbert RE: mcf May 22, 2014 02:14 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            That's awesome. My husband has a thing about people in our house when we're not there, otherwise I'd get a pet sitter. I just think pets like a routine. They may go with you but they'd probably be perfectly happy at home with someone to play with.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: Hobbert
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mcf RE: Hobbert May 22, 2014 05:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              She's been working in our home for 7 years now, and is very reliable, trustworthy and more like family to us at this point. And a big time animal lover and volunteer for them. I'm much more comfortable with her than the vet's techs, but I'd have no problem trusting them to care for my cats if necessary.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: mcf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                l
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                latindancer RE: mcf May 22, 2014 05:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Same here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                They're not impossible to find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                We've had the same person for many years and our dog isn't freaked out when we leave…when she sees her come into our home she knows we're leaving and she's more than fine.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: Hobbert
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            l
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            latindancer RE: Hobbert May 22, 2014 02:17 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Those pet hotels are awesome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            We used one years ago and each of my cats had their own room with a tree outside the window and a window in the ceiling so they could watch the birds. They were fed like a king and queen and played with all day long.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Amazing.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  2. John E. RE: sushidad May 19, 2014 10:40 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have not yet read this entire thread. My biggest problem is not with the dogs at restaurants. My problem is with the owners of the dogs who believe it is a good idea to bring their dogs to a reataurant.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Please leave your dogs at home. Nobody cares how much you love your dog.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. h
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hobbert RE: sushidad May 20, 2014 04:38 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I don't care for dogs in restaurants (I don't count patio or outdoor seating) but it's not really a problem. I so rarely see a service dog in Northern VA that I assume the ones I do see are legitimate. I've never had an issue with a service dog. They're calm and helpful and generally uninterested in me which is the best trait a dog can have, in my opinion. Around here, it's just not much of an issue so I don't give it much thought.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Dogs left in cars, though? Don't even get me started!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: Hobbert
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        monavano RE: Hobbert May 20, 2014 04:51 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Much of NoVa is outdoor patio dog- friendly and we do take advantage of that on occasion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't see true service dogs inside anywhere- very rare.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Evidently, in CA, people are entitled asshats!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes, trained dogs and service dogs do not jump or sniff crotch.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That is a NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FWIW, for the most part, it's people who need to be trained in how to interact with a highly trained dog.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        For eg., no, it's not OK that my dog jump when excited. It's not cute, so let me discipline him!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: monavano
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          h
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hobbert RE: monavano May 20, 2014 05:36 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm headed to LA later this year. I can't wait to see these crazies for myself! Sounds very entertaining.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Westy RE: sushidad May 20, 2014 05:05 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It all depends on how they are cooked. Dog sashimi...no, but spit roasted over a charcooal grill.....YUM!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. pinehurst RE: sushidad May 20, 2014 05:24 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I've eaten entire meals in formal restaurants at least twice without noticing that a large service animal has been laying at his owner's feet....I saw the dogs only on the walk out.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Far more often than not, the hygiene and manners (or lack thereof) of people, not dogs, are what cause me consternation while dining out.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          But to the OP's original question as to whether other CHs agree: it depends.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          It depends entirely on the type of restaurant and whether or not the furry guy or gal has been trained to comport himself/herself.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Telling us on CH about your disgust won't help your cause. Telling the manager that you'll take your money elsewhere...might.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: pinehurst
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            monavano RE: pinehurst May 20, 2014 05:31 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Telling us on CH about your disgust won't help your cause. Telling the manager that you'll take your money elsewhere...might.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ******

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Exactly, and btw, vote with your feet and walk out. I don't need your stink eye while I'm enjoying my meal.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            beevod RE: sushidad May 20, 2014 07:58 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            That settles it. I'm bringing my eagle to Per Se

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: beevod
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Firegoat RE: beevod May 20, 2014 09:50 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If per se welcomed corgis and it was legal I'd be happy to bring my dog there. If you get a license to own a raptor and get per se to approve it, knock yourself out

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cleobeach RE: sushidad May 20, 2014 10:39 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Another incident at my son's school prompted me to post.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              My son is in his third year at this school and every year, the principal has to ban dogs from the school grounds.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Parents/caretakers bring dogs when picking up their kids and every year there is an incident involving out of control dogs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Why is it the people who can't bare to be separated from their dogs seem to have dogs that are so badly behaved?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Concerning the Europeans - My family and their friends are firmly in the take-your-dog-to-restaurant camp but they pride themselves on their dogs excellent behavior. Standards are different outside of America.....

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