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Anyone else disgusted with dogs in restaurants?


Went to Sam's @ Louis' for brunch. A patron was holding a lap dog inside the restaurant. I think this is offensive and potentially unhealthy. (Is this a violation of the health code?) In my opinion, restaurants are not a place to bring pets. Do others agree?

  1. Why didn't you ask a staffer at the restaurant about this?

    1. All municipalities have their own codes.
      Where I live the code is becoming more and more jeopardized by those who know the law and have no problem breaking it.
      It's up to the proprietor to decide how/if they want to allow dogs. The law clearly states that the only dogs allowed are service dogs. The law also states the owner of the establishment cannot ask certain questions of the owner. If they word the question wrong they can also be threatened with a lawsuit from the owner of the dog.
      Therefore, more and more people are bringing their beloved animals along with them without a care in the world about those who are offended by them.
      The law states the proprietor can ask to see their 'permit'. All the offender has to do is say they left it at home and the proprietor has to trust they have one.

      117 Replies
      1. re: latindancer

        I forget what news show it was on but I recently read there is a whole black market of service dog paraphernalia for this purpose. Things included "Service Dog" vests and accompaniments to adorn your dog in to make them look "official". All for people that just want to bring their dog's with them that obviously they don't belong.

        1. re: jrvedivici

          Even with all the paraphernalia, as you've described, it's not too hard to notice which dog is a service dog and which dog is just a pet whose owner finds it emotionally impossible to leave them at home. I love my rescue but I wouldn't in a billion years impose her presence on another's space…in the slightest possibility someone may not like or be allergic to her.
          A service dog is a working dog….they're highly trained companions. The majority of time they're not allowed to be touched by a stranger…their owner is very protective and the dog there to work and protect, not visit.
          Service dogs don't jump up on my leg when they're working in a a restaurant or market.

          1. re: latindancer

            And yet I haven't read of any crackdown on fake service dogs. This seems to be big in California, but I suppose it's only a matter of time before it migrates east, like appletinis and cocaine. I suppose it's just the canine version of fake handicapped plates for people suffering from mycousinthedoctor syndrome.

            1. re: monkeyrotica

              The California legislature is beginning to look into the problem of service dog scofflaws.

            2. re: latindancer

              Service dogs don't have magical properties that make their dander not cause allergic reactions.

              1. re: rasputina

                No, but one is much less likely to encounter one if only legit ones are admitted places.

                1. re: rasputina

                  The blind and wheelchair-bound and other physically disabled people helped by service dogs shouldn't be allowed out in public because you don't take your antihistamines? Talk about a sense of entitlement!

                  1. re: greygarious

                    Nobody is questioning actual service dogs for the blind or otherwise disabled. The problem is the illegitimate proliferation of dogs everywhere because people take advantage of the loose interpretation of service dogs. Furthermore, antihistamines are not enough to protect people with severe allergies from serious complications.

                    1. re: bachchick

                      Nobody is questioning actual service dogs for the blind or otherwise disabled.
                      Oh yes, they are here!!!!!!!
                      NO DOGS ANYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!
                      I MIGHT SNEEZE!!!!!!!!
                      OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!



                      THEY SHED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                      1. re: bachchick

                        I agree but I'm not sure about a solution. A "legitimate" service dog doesn't have any more or less dander than a "illegitimate" service dog. So what do you do with a seeing eye dog on an airplane? In that enclosed environment a dog allergy would be much more severe than in a building.

                        1. re: HoosierFoodie

                          A helpful solution is to bathe the dog before it goes on a plane, or into a hospice/hospital/nursing home.
                          I know I'll be doing that when I eventually (fingers crossed!) take my dog places to be a canine companion.

                          1. re: monavano

                            Is anyone really that allergic to a dog in a large open room or even in a space like an aircraft? I have never heard of any major issues - it's not like a nut allergy with the risk of anaphylactic shock as you are not eating the poor dog....!

                            I am allergic to dogs, cats, horses etc. but no issues being in the same room, I don't touch them, or allow them to sit on me. I really can't understand this as an issue.

                            1. re: PhilD

                              I'm allergic to cats, and must wash my hands after petting, or else I get red bumps if I touch my face.
                              That said, I can be near them.
                              Being in a dander/fur-filled house would get problematic, tho.

                              1. re: monavano

                                Same here, especially as cats tend to come in packs in cat lovers homes and like to curl up on the pillows of those most allergic - they are evil creatures that have a sixth sense that allows them to torment us - but thats very different to a few dogs in a large restaurant.... ;-)

                                1. re: PhilD

                                  Did you miss the video of the family cat who saved a 4-year old boy when he was attacked by the neighbor's dog?


                                  1. re: John E.

                                    Don't be fooled - a warrior from the Cat Empire simply showed their true colours - they are the dominant species - just bidding their time. Dogs beware!

                                    1. re: PhilD

                                      they do, after all, have razors for feet...

                                    2. re: John E.

                                      And today's follow up....this cat is getting more than his 15 minutes of (well deserved!) fame


                                    3. re: PhilD

                                      Today's fun fact: I just read recently that cats don't like people that look directly at them, as it's a sign of aggression or dominance to them. That's why they always go to the people who don't like them, because they don't look directly at them.

                                      1. re: coll

                                        Many dogs, too.
                                        It's a no-no, but heck if people don't approach strange dogs and get right into their face, "booboobooboo".

                                        1. re: coll

                                          Direct staring is a challenge throughout the mammal kingdom, though not necessarily signalling aggression, it's a claim of dominance. When I was a zoo guide, we always told visitors not to look the primates in the eye as it unsettled them. Even with your own adoring dog, who may gaze into your eyes with all his heart - try staring at him unblinkingly, without any facial expression, or speaking. He'll quickly avert his eyes. If he doesn't, he may be the type of dog who wants to dominate his owner and needs ongoing reinforcement of basic obedience training. My cat experience is mostly with Siamese and their offshoot breeds. They are more people-oriented than most cats; I've known a number of them who loved nothing better than gazing into their owners' eyes.

                                          I once attended a vegetarian dinner held by a humane society. Somewhat incongruously, the guest of honor was a wolf named Shaman. He was a juvenile in training to be the outreach rep of a local wolf sanctuary.
                                          The handler explained that while you'd think a meek wolf would be the best for this, in fact it's the job for an alpha. He has to be VERY confident in order to remain calm in strange and changing environments. At the end of the meal, Shaman was allowed to roam the room, trailing the heavy chain that was his "leash". After climbing onto a table to wolf down (yup) a dinner roll, he meandered over to me, and made eye contact. This was years before I learned about what staring means to animals. He looked straight into my eyes, out the back of my head, as I returned the eye contact. I wasn't scared, but I *was* transfixed. This was not a dog looking at me; it was pure life-force. It seemed like time stood still but was probably not more than 30 seconds before he moved off and purloined a cupcake.

                                          1. re: greygarious

                                            <needs ongoing reinforcement of basic obedience training>

                                            Interesting, but not across the board always the case.
                                            My dog (female rescue and old) has had intensive, extensive obedience training by a very good trainer.
                                            She's very well trained.
                                            She's lovable, trainable and follows commands.
                                            She stares me down all the time…
                                            I'm the one who usually looks away as I could be there for hours staring….am I the one who needs the obedience training?

                                            1. re: latindancer

                                              My dogs stare when they want something- food or potty.
                                              I'm able to hold a loving gaze with them, too.

                                              1. re: monavano

                                                I'd give just about anything to know what's going on in her head when she does it.
                                                It's certainly a loving connection for me :-).

                                            2. re: greygarious

                                              Huh. My cat stares at me then blinks slowly and falls down. Conclusion: I control him with my mind.

                                              1. re: Hobbert

                                                slow blinks from cats are the kitty equivalent of a kiss :-)

                                                1. re: Hobbert

                                                  My kid was interviewing my 82 year old father about life during The Great Depression. (Video camera going too.)

                                                  Off camera, the cat was licking herself and tipped over twice. I laughed both times and got the 'what?' each time.

                                                2. re: greygarious

                                                  Well, everyone loves a cupcake:)
                                                  But seriously, that must have been an tremendous experience. Lucky you.

                                          2. re: PhilD

                                            Phil, my husband is sufficiently allergic to dogs and cats that he does sneeze and get asthmatic when they are merely in a carrier stowed under his seat or the seat in front of a person sitting next to him on planes. This has occurred in situations where he did not even know there was a pet on board until he starting sneezing and wheezing. Fortunately the flight attendant has always been able to reseat the passenger with pet.

                                            I am not trying to suggest that his allergies trump the need of a handicapped person with a service dog. But it is an issue. (And really not surprising given the poor air circulation on planes.)

                                            1. re: masha

                                              I don't doubt it causes people to sneeze but is it really serious? I assume it's similar to hay fever - if you are that allergic then an inhaler puts it right quickly, and like hay fever its tricky to exclude animals from everywhere you go.

                                              1. re: PhilD

                                                The only effective medication in his case are antihistamines that make him quite drowsy (the non-drowsy ones don't work for him). They pretty much knock him out, which is ok if he did not plan to work on the plane or drive a car on arrival at the other end. Of course he takes them when there is no alternative. My point above was just to respond to the suggestion that there are no ill effects so long as you don't touch the animal; maybe for you, but not him.

                                                1. re: masha

                                                  I feel for your husband - I have allergies to cats,dogs,horses,guinea pigs etc.....as well as trees,weeds,grass, most pollen bearing flowers, fragrances, several medications,corn,yeast,wheat,soy,and dairy. I actually break out in hives fairly regularly and take my emergency inhaler everywhere.I own all of the above mentioned animals because I value my sanity and happiness. Both of which they ensure. I wonder, as someone who is around pets and their owners- I find we often "wear" them on our clothes even when they are not around. Just as I cannot ask someone to refrain from wearing perfume while I dine out, I don't "de-fur" myself while in public places......frankly I probably have as much dander on me as my pets do!
                                                  How does your husband deal with this situation?
                                                  I am keeping Benedryl in business -it's small price to pay for the joy and health benefits ( low blood pressure, mandatory exercise etc) my pets bring me.

                                                  1. re: EAH

                                                    We have no pets and he tries to minimize exposure to others'. Our friends and family members with cats and dogs know of his allergies, and are considerate enough to thoroughly vacuum carpets and upholstered furniture before we visit, and keep the pets away from him during the visit. He will often try to sit on unupholstered furniture or, if weather permits, outside where the elements can be relied upon to wash away any dog or cat dander. (I'm the one allergic to pollens, etc, not him.) If necessary, he takes an antihistamine while he is there. If it's a dinner party, he fights to stay awake; if we are houseguests, he promptly takes a nap. I too do not pet the animals so as not to transfer dander from me to him. And, when we get home, everything goes in the wash immediately.

                                                    He only developed these allergies in his late teens. Before that, he grew up with cats and really liked dogs too. No animus towards either; just realizes that he feels much better if he avoids them.

                                                    1. re: masha

                                                      A friend of mine has pet allergies and badly wanted to watch a college football game, he not having cable at the time. He knew about my cat, but since I had an unused bedroom that we kept closed and the cat never went in, we gave it a shot. I moved a TV, split the cable signal and ran coax cable, hoping we'd have an enjoyable male bonding, beer swilling, college football game. Poor fellow didn't last a minute.

                                                      1. re: James Cristinian

                                                        The problem with cat allergies is that the most common cat allergen is so small in particle size that it doesn't weigh enough to settle out of the air. So if you have any ventilation in your house, it doesn't matter where in the house the pet is, it all gets circulated around.

                                                        I really wish this wasn't the case. I really feel like I am a cat person, and would love one, but my allergies are too severe.

                                                        1. re: James Cristinian

                                                          We have Siamese which are considered to be the least likely to cause allergic reactions (something to do with being single coated) and a new friend of ours had to leave our house within 5 minutes of arriving. We have all hardwood floors and leather furniture so it wasn't like there was tons of cat dander lurking about.

                                                          1. re: cleobeach

                                                            Isn't the saliva the trigger?

                                              2. re: PhilD

                                                But you will if they've been on or in contact with your restaurant seat.

                                                1. re: mcf

                                                  Only if I take my trousers off - hopefully not the new hip thing to do ;-)

                                                  1. re: PhilD

                                                    Dust, hair, fur, dander go airborne, they don't just lay there.

                                                    But nice touch not dropping trou.

                                                2. re: PhilD

                                                  I was involved in a similar conversation on another forum about a month back. A couple of people cited allergies to dogs that can result in anaphylaxis. They carry epipens with them just in case. So, yes, as it turns out, dog allergies can be that severe.

                                                  1. re: LMAshton

                                                    Any allergy can be that severe. Some more commonly than others, but any can depending on the individual.

                                                  2. re: PhilD

                                                    Yes, I am. I take antihistamines and use an inhaler every day but I am still sensitive to certain allergens. Some are far worse than others, and within a species such as dogs, some breeds bother me much more than other breeds.

                                                    At my office, there is a woman who had a small chihuahua named Cujo, which was hysterical because it maybe weighs six pounds soaking wet. This woman would bring Cujo to the office with her and let him run around. He was very well-behaved and uncommonly quiet for his breed. More than once, I had a violent sneezing attack accompanied by itching eyes and throat, only to find out that Cujo was lurking around in my immediate work area. I had to tell that woman(an independent contractor who came and went as needed, whereas I, a full-time employee am expected to work a normal schedule) that if she continued to bring him to the office, she would either have to do my work for me or explain to our boss why I had to leave the office abruptly. She was a total snot about it...couldn't believe that her little tiny darling could affect me that way.

                                                    As it relates to service animals, if they are trained and providing a legitimate service animal function, they are most likely providing a service for someone whose health status (physical or mental) requires a companion animal. Their medical status is going to trump my status as a more or less normal and healthy adult so I accept and support the idea that I can and should suck it up so their needs are met.

                                                    On the other hand, I resent being unnecessarily exposed to allergens because entitled people think their animal is just so special and precious that their need to enjoy its company trumps the consideration of others, whether they be highly allergic people like me, or people who have an irrational fear of animals, or something similar.

                                                    1. re: jlhinwa

                                                      I am still far from convinced that dogs can really serious allergic reactions that could lead to anaphylactic shock.

                                                      I searched the internet and couldn't find any reference to it. I get anaphylactic reactions to ingested allergens like nuts, I get the extremely rare reactions to horses (they are far bigger than dogs).

                                                      I recognise people are allergic to animals, especially if they touch them, but equally people are just as allergic to pollen so flowers and trees are equally problematic. Do people get anaphylactic shock from flowers?

                                                      I am not denying people are allergic (i am myself) but lets keep a bit of perspective - as far as I can tell its far, far from anything remotely life threatening. I am happy to be directed to a source that says otherwise. But hardly a reason to ban dogs from public spaces.......

                                                      1. re: PhilD

                                                        The folks in this post mention hives and the necessity for inhalers and epipens, so the diagnosis obviously included one or more medical professionals -- i.e., highly likely to be genuine, not faked or some flight of fancy.

                                                        Compassion is a wonderful thing.

                                                        1. re: PhilD

                                                          Rare reactions to horses??? Horse dander is one of the most potent antigens out there. Very common to react to it.

                                                          Folks commonly get constitutional symptoms from congention to hives from dog allergies, convincing you is NOT their priority, preventing increasing severity of symptoms is. Any time all those are present, escalation is possible.

                                                          1. re: mcf

                                                            Sorry meant anaphylactic reaction to horses - I agree allergy to horses is common and from what I read it is the one animal that is documented to actually cause anaphylaxis - albeit very rarely.

                                                            I was raising the question about the true severity of allergies in the context of dogs in restaurants. We have seen the over reaction of places like baseball stadiums and peanut allergies. God help us if we start to see dog bans from public based on similar scare stories.

                                                            I am allergic to many animals and especially allergic to horses with hives, breathing issues etc etc. (and I can get asthma) so I am not ignorant about the effects of allergies. So I avoid horses, keeping my distance from them and not going to stables, I don't pat dogs and cats etc. but if I go to a friends house who has pets I simply take an inhaler in case I get any discomfort, and dogs in large rooms (restaurants) have never caused me an issue.

                                                            So when I read comments about extreme symptoms, mention of anaphylaxis etc I think it's good to ask questions to ascertain if it's true. Look up anaphylaxis and dogs and the references I find are about dogs which are allergic and can get reactions....I found nothing about people.

                                                            It would be good to read more - grateful for any references. In the mean time I remain skeptical and think its an exaggeration.

                                                            1. re: PhilD

                                                              Whatever floats your boat.

                                                          2. re: PhilD

                                                            Even if it isn't an anaphylactic reactions, allergens can trigger asthma attacks, which can be deadly.

                                                            1. re: PhilD

                                                              Why must you be convinced of the health issues of others? Seems to me it's one of those things that one accepts as possible - even if it doesn't apply to you. Because it might be unusual certainly doesn't make it impossible. And "keeping a bit of perspective" - easy for you to say!

                                                              1. re: Toots4120

                                                                Toots - why must I be convinced? Well only if someone uses a alleged health issue to limit others freedoms seems a good starting point. We should all be wary of people exaggerating health issues if they have an impact on the welfare and enjoyment of others.

                                                                As someone who has allergies, to tree nuts, dogs, cats horses etc etc I think I have a reasonably good perspective on the issue. I have had anaphylactic reactions requiring medical treatment so I have some understanding of the issue.

                                                                I really do understand that if you eat something or have something injected (drugs and insect stings) you can get an anaphylactic reaction. I understand some people have reactions to latex, and very, very rarely there are cases of anaphylactic reactions to horses.

                                                                But to extrapolate that all allergies can become anaphylactic is a big big stretch. If you follow that logic we will cut down forests, pave over grass etc etc to get rid of the nasty pollens.

                                                                There are lots of half truths in the mass of information that swirls around the medical industry. We really should be vigilant to call out the more far fetched ones if they are used as reasons to affect personal freedoms.

                                                                1. re: PhilD

                                                                  "But to extrapolate that all allergies can become anaphylactic is a big big stretch. If you follow that logic we will cut down forests, pave over grass etc etc to get rid of the nasty pollens."

                                                                  Yeah, there's a lot of call for that as an alternative to highly effective 12 weeks of allergy desensitization. I mean, it's been in the news non stop, right?

                                                                  Oh, waitaminute...

                                                                  1. re: mcf

                                                                    So nothing in the news about this.....mmmh. Wonder why, could it be it's not an issue...?

                                                                      1. re: PhilD

                                                                        because no, the press has never ignored something and opted to run with something that is truly unimportant.

                                                                        (the Kim and Kanye wedding, anyone)

                                                                        The fact that it's not covered in the press doesn't negate its existence, nor does the fact that it's a statistically insignificant number -- it's *VERY* significant for those so afflicted.

                                                                    1. re: PhilD

                                                                      If you yourself have had an anaphylactic reaction, then why, oh why would you doubt someone else's reaction?

                                                                      What would you say if someone doubted that you had, indeed, had an anaphylactic reaction?

                                                                      What makes you qualify for anaphylactic reactions, but not someone else?

                                                                      1. re: sunshine842

                                                                        Maybe because I suffer I take more interest in it and thus question the odd claims especially when used to justify things that impact others.

                                                                        I don't care if people believe I have allergies or not. It's my personal responsibility to take precautions. I don't go near horses, I don't eat nuts. But I have no need to ban nuts from restaurants or horses from public spaces.

                                                                          1. re: LexiFirefly

                                                                            LMAO. Seriously? I was joking in this thread about asking the state to remove all the goldenrod in the state park near my home. That woman isn't just a helicopter parent she is a stealth black hawk fighter pilot parent!

                                                                            1. re: foodieX2

                                                                              My SO and I wondered why anyone would bully her TEENAGE children. Nope I just don't see it.

                                                                              1. re: LexiFirefly

                                                                                So the article is from 2012, do you know what happened?

                                                                                And not to go to far OT, but bullying is very much alive and well in high schools. It often comes in the form of hazing as well as social ostracization. Compound that with FB, twitter etc and the bullying becomes even worse. Does that justify taking down oak trees? No. Taking them down won't stop bullying.

                                                                                1. re: foodieX2

                                                                                  Nor will it stop pollen from hundreds of miles around blowing in.

                                                                                  1. re: foodieX2

                                                                                    She eventually withdrew her application to have the tree removed, a lot of people were not impressed with her concern. For the bullying aspect I was more thinking that her extreme helicopter parenting could be a factor in the teens being ostracized, sorry to go off topic!

                                                                                    1. re: LexiFirefly

                                                                                      Gotcha! And thanks for the update. I'm glad she pulled it. And something tells me she has moved onto petitioning for mother and son/daughter dorm rooms at colleges!

                                                                              2. re: LexiFirefly

                                                                                I read the clipping. Supposedly the school is nut-free according to the article. Too bad the Town isn't

                                                                          2. re: PhilD

                                                                            You know, when a person tells me that they can possibly have an anaphylaxis reaction to being in the same room as a dog, I tend to believe them. I don't demand medical reports. Yeah, I haven't heard of it before, but so what?

                                                                            1. re: LMAshton

                                                                              LM - you and I are obviously different. If someone tells me something that is patently wrong I tend to question them. If nothing else they may be avoiding dogs in the mistaken belief they are dangerous to their health rather than causing discomfort. At worst they could advocate for banning dogs/animals from all sorts of places for very spurious reasons.

                                                                              Just because someone believes something, or has extrapolated allergy to mean there is always a risk of anaphylaxis doesn't make them right. The allergy industry its associated lobby groups are a weird phenommena which does have a real impact on many people i.e. causing them to worry and be stressed when they don't need to (and shouldn't we care about that?)

                                                                                1. re: mcf

                                                                                  Personal medical issues are none of my business. Exaggerated medical issues that restrict everyone else's freedoms are.

                                                                                  I really don't get thus uncritical acceptance of any medical claim - why is questioning something that sounds wrong so emotional?

                                                                                  1. re: PhilD

                                                                                    I work retail and am on my feet most of the time. I ruptured my Achilles tendon stepping in a hole at 4 am on the way to a major work day. After 9 weeks in a boot, 5 on crutches it flared up 6 weeks later. I was accused of milking it. Yeah, milking it, that's why I spent 100 dollars for two co-pay visits after the injury and had to put the boot on for another month, me the guy that showed up the Sunday after Thanksgiving for re-pricing a big store with the blown out Achilles.

                                                                                    1. re: James Cristinian

                                                                                      James - and the relevance of this to dogs in restaurants is?

                                                                                    2. re: PhilD

                                                                                      Wait, assuming someone is abusing the animal assistance laws is fine but inflating possible allergic risk is none of your business?

                                                                                      This thread has taken an interesting turn.

                                                                                      1. re: PhilD

                                                                                        Because you make stuff up not in evidence. And anyone with hard to understand medical history can tell you how much physical and emotional suffering and even terror comes from such attitudes.

                                                                                        Whether or not you're truly allergic is no business of anyone here; it's not like some sort of credential.

                                                                                    3. re: PhilD

                                                                                      So you would, what, demand a certificate from their doctor? What other kind of proof would you require?

                                                                                      1. re: LMAshton

                                                                                        Only if they wanted to ban dogs from a public place. I have no interest in their personal beliefs if they don't affect others. Unfortunately spurious medical conditions are used to justify lots of things and if they are they must be fair game to challenge.

                                                                                      2. re: PhilD

                                                                                        I have a friend who is highly allergic to rubbing alcohol. And yet, despite this being on her chart and despite her telling every nurse and doctor who might use it around her, she *still* has nurses who apply it to her skin before a needle because "it's just a little bit". And she winds up in anaphylaxis. Because those people didn't believe her that it could be that serious.

                                                                                        Would you use rubbing alcohol around her because rubbing alcohol is not widely accepted as an allergy that could lead to anaphylaxis? Or would you consider that as ridiculous as well since it's not widely documented?

                                                                                        1. re: LMAshton

                                                                                          For freak's sake; I know someone (who turned out to have mast cell activation disorder or mastocytosis undiagnosed) who was in a constant state of anaphylaxis and at one point, even plain water elicited the reaction before it was treated.

                                                                                          1. re: mcf

                                                                                            but no, it can't be real because PhilD doesn't believe in it.

                                                                                            You can't *fake* anaphylaxis, and if you're carrying an epipen, then there's at least one medical professional out there (involved in the initial treatment of the anaphylaxis, diagnosis of the allergy, and the followup prescription for the epipen) who is convinced that the allergy is serious enough a threat to the patient's lfie that the epipen is necessary...thus I'll take someone's statement that their allergy is anaphylaxis-serious at face value and believe them 100%.

                                                                                            1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                              I am not saying Anaphylaxis isn't real. But I question if pet allergies really cause it. Because if they do there is a really scary lack of literature out there.

                                                                                              Do you really know of anyone who has been prescribed an epi pen for a pet allergy, pollen or dust allergy?

                                                                                              1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                I do.

                                                                                                The question is, will you believe me?

                                                                                                1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                  Okay- I'll bite.
                                                                                                  As I stated earlier in this thread, I suffer from severe allergies to animals, food, medicines and nature
                                                                                                  (trees,flowering plants, grass, weeds, mold etc). However, it is more severe than most typical allergies.

                                                                                                  I was diagnosed with Mastocytosis back in 1992 and have reoccurring serious flare ups of it (aka urticaria pigmentosa). By the way- Mastocytosis does not automatically cause an anaphylactic response- mine was diagnosed with chronic hives, asthma, and finally Uticaria Pigmentosa. I have been on continuous rounds of steroids and have at all times 2 Epi Pens on me as well as my emergency inhaler.I take my allergy meds daily.
                                                                                                  I have done shots, drops etc. Finally my allergist suggested that my pet allergies would most likely IMPROVE with my exposure to my pets......which they have.... as my tolerance has built up.
                                                                                                  To date-after 25 years of UP the only allergies that have caused me to go into severe asthma attacks or close to anaphylaxis are : Iodine, contrast dyes, medicines
                                                                                                  (Chloroprep,betadine, penicillin,CCB's or Sulpha) or believe it or not the worst for me: dust mites.

                                                                                                  My animal allergies are the LEAST of my problems. Sure, I hive up and itch once in a while, but mostly its the saliva that causes it, not the hair.

                                                                                                  A while ago I had a serious discussion with my allergist wherein I contemplated eradicating
                                                                                                  ALL allergens from my life.
                                                                                                  I was informed by my allergist that it was SO uncommon for pet allergies to cause anaphylaxis that he had never heard of a case.
                                                                                                  I have to agree with PhilD-

                                                                                                  People who simply dislike dogs are probably the most guilty of playing the allergy card.

                                                                                                  And before you jump on me- go ahead and re read my post. I suffer from a HYPER ALLERGIC RESPONSE and have been under the continual care of a highly regarded allergist in the UC System for almost 25 years. I am undoubtably more qualified than most on this thread to know of
                                                                                                  where I speak.
                                                                                                  Those of you who are so disgusted by those who would fake their pets service credentials as it infringes on others freedoms should be just as appalled by those who would fake the severity of their allergies to pets thus imposing on others freedoms.

                                                                                                  1. re: EAH

                                                                                                    "Those of you who are so disgusted by those who would fake their pets service credentials as it infringes on others freedoms should be just as appalled by those who would fake the severity of their allergies to pets thus imposing on others freedoms."

                                                                                                    I'm almost 60; I've never known anyone to do this. Maybe if I live long enough...

                                                                                                  2. re: PhilD

                                                                                                    there's several folks right here on this very board.

                                                                                                2. re: mcf

                                                                                                  Mcf - And the relevance of this rare but serious condition to someone who is simply allergic to dogs?

                                                                                                  1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                    That there is a whole huge spectrum of allergic disorder between mere allergy, over active mast cells and frank mastocytosis and all that it involves that you may think is fake, or made up anaphylaxis but is quite real.

                                                                                                  2. re: mcf

                                                                                                    Yeah, mastocytosis sucks rocks. Huge rocks.

                                                                                                    1. re: LMAshton

                                                                                                      It's extremely life limiting, from sunlight intolerance to eating almost no proteins and very few other foods than rice, very unhealthy on so many levels.

                                                                                                  3. re: LMAshton

                                                                                                    Well that is a bit weird as allergies to isopropyl alcohol are well documented. It's one of the reasons people can be allergic to perfumes and cosmetics.

                                                                                                    However, allergies don't equal anaphylactic shock. Did you friend get shot up with adrenaline and steroids each time this happened.....?

                                                                                                    1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                      So you want me to get her medical treatment notes?

                                                                                                      1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                        Dismissing someone's medical condition without having examined the patient and their records would be considered highly unethical for a medical professional.

                                                                                                        What, exactly, are your medical qualifications that allow you to dismiss these issues out of hand?

                                                                                                        You skipped over my comment that it's impossible to fae allergic and anaphylactic reactions....how is it that you explain these symptoms if it's fake?

                                                                                                        1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                          Agree you can't fake it but there are lots of people who assume they suffer from things and talk about them who don't. A bad allergic reaction isn't necessarily an anaphylactic one. You can get hives, laboured breathing and hot itchy skin but it's not anaphylaxis. And the symptoms recede naturally over time.

                                                                                                          Self reported illness is notoriously unreliable especially if people are propping up arguments. Patients are prescribed drugs for good and bad reasons. Think about the issues or antibiotic resistance resulting from the over prescription of antibiotics as an example. EpiPens are very well marketed and very widely prescribed - it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect some doctors may prescribe them to placate irrational fears rather than for good therapeutic reasons.

                                                                                                          I have still to read anything that says pet allergies (apart from horses) have/can cause anaphylactic shock. I read one paper which postulated it could have been a cause but the allergist thought it unlikely. Many anaphylactic reactions are idiopathic, it's a bit like food poisoning with the last thing eaten getting the blame, rather than a fully tested and identified trigger. So there is a bit of mystery.

                                                                                                          But as I said in another post if per allergies are potentially so lethal (via anaphylaxis rather than asthma) why do so many pet owners continue to keep their pets - I think about 30% of pet owners have allergies. People allergic to nuts don't take risks because they like the taste....?

                                                                                                          1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                            " Many anaphylactic reactions are idiopathic,"

                                                                                                            Idiopathic is code for "you have something I don't believe in nor understand and won't take the time to investigate."

                                                                                                            1. re: mcf

                                                                                                              No, it means doctors by and large don't have powers of divination.

                                                                                                    2. re: PhilD

                                                                                                      And to add something else to reflect on. Lots of pet owners have allergies to their pets - I can't find the stats but it's a surprisingly high number.

                                                                                                      Contrast that with the number of people who suffer from nut allergies who deliberately eat nuts - my guess is zero.

                                                                                                      Now why is this? If pets were so risky for those with allergies, with a risk of anaphylaxis would anyone with an allergy own one?

                                                                                                  4. re: PhilD

                                                                                                    If my son spends the night in a home with a dog or cat, he often ends up with a week-long cold that can develop into a case of bronchitis. If a dog licks him, he will break out in terrible hives. It's too bad, because we all love animals.

                                                                                                    His allergist has advised us to avoid all contact as much as possible, because his allergies are of the type that become more and more severe with exposure. She also says that antihistimines won't keep him from experiencing the bronchial effects of the allergy.

                                                                                                    We live in a country where dogs are allowed in a lot of restaurants. It's never been a big issue. We try to steer clear and most people keep their well-behaved dogs on a very short leash and don't let them interact with other patrons.

                                                                                                    The only problem we've ever really had was in California (San Francisco) where we seemed to be magnets for dogs running loose and being left to roam among tables unattended. For the first time, I sort of wished someone would crack down in favor of the humans.

                                                                                                    1. re: butterfly

                                                                                                      Yeah, NOT OKAY that they be roaming freely in a restaurant.
                                                                                                      Leashed and short one at that!

                                                                                                      1. re: butterfly

                                                                                                        Colds are caused by virus's and cannot be transmitted to humans from dogs and cats. It sounds like what you are referring to could be allergic or non allergic rhinitis.

                                                                                                        1. re: butterfly

                                                                                                          Hopefully, time will buffer the effects of dogs on your son.
                                                                                                          I know I tested (+) for dogs, and have 3 now!

                                                                                                          Cats are another story, though ;(

                                                                                                    2. re: PhilD

                                                                                                      Yes! Some people are that allergic to dogs! Allergies vary in severity. Some people sneeze, some get asthma, some get sick and die. Being sympathetic to people who need service dogs is no excuse for being callous to people who are allergic to dogs.

                                                                                                      1. re: bachchick

                                                                                                        Who is being callous to people with allergies? I am very sympathetic - I am just saying I don't see any evidence of anaphalaxis as a result of a pet allergy.

                                                                                                        1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                          YOU don't have to see any evidence.

                                                                                                          The folks who suffer these allergies and their medical professionals are the only ones who need to see the evidence -- and as per my post just above, they obviously are satisfied with the evidence.

                                                                                                          YOU need to accept that it might just be real.

                                                                                                          1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                            Perhaps you can provide data to reference?

                                                                                                            1. re: monavano

                                                                                                              Perhaps you could, too?

                                                                                                              I can't be bothered because the fact that they have an epipen is enough evidence for me.

                                                                                                              I'm not a doctor, I'm not an allergist, and I don't consider myself entitled to nor qualified to make a judgement about someone else's medical records.

                                                                                                              1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                Just asking a question.

                                                                                                                If the answer is no, just say so.

                                                                                                                I wasn't challenging you. I simply was curious and in no way was asking for anyone's medical records.

                                                                                                                If personal testimonial is rigorous enough for you, so be it.

                                                                                                                I tend to be more academic and appreciate scientific data.

                                                                                                                Oh well...

                                                                                                                1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                  I have zero motivation to provide research.

                                                                                                                  I have zero motivation to assume people AND their doctors are full of shit.

                                                                                                                  Why do you make that assumption?

                                                                                                            2. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                              Why can't I ask for evidence? If someone wants to ban pets from public areas (or cut down trees to eliminate acorns) I think its fair to ask for the documented evidence behind it rather than simply believe anecdotes.

                                                                                                              If it is such a common risk its not going to be difficult to produce the documented evidence is it.....?

                                                                                                              1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                there are people on this thread who have replied that they indeed have these allergies.

                                                                                                                They have indicated that they are not obligated to share their personal medical history with a complete stranger over the internet. This is completely (and understandably) their right.

                                                                                                                Perhaps you could contact a university or research center to carry on this dogged search for a whack job.

                                                                                                                1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                  I don't want any medical records and have no interest in them.

                                                                                                                  I would simply like to be pointed to some research literature or case studies on this subject. Given how pervasive pet allergies are, and how serious anaphylaxis is, there should be lots of it around.....I can't find it.

                                                                                                                  1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                    Once upon a time, this thread was about "disgusting" dogs in restaurants..now it has turned into a diatribe on ppl with allergies and idiots who push the service dog category to the max

                                                                                                                    Keep it on thread or it will go in the CH hopper.......there's other places for rants and raves


                                                                                                                    1. re: FriedClamFanatic

                                                                                                                      FCF - well this part stems from claims that dogs should be banned from restaurants because people have allergies to them which could have an anaphylactic reaction. So its directly related.

                                                                                                                    2. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                      How dare you ask someone to support their outrage with actual peer reviewed studies LOL.

                                                                                                                      1. re: rasputina

                                                                                                                        have any of you stopped to realize that the articles you seek just *might* be behind a pay or membership wall?

                                                                                                                        I'll agree that an allergy to animals of this severity is certainly rare, and so the research is probably quite limited, simply by the small sample size in existence..but unless you have access to every academic library that is published (many of which have severely limited access) you simply cannot say that there is no evidence.

                                                                                                                        It also might not exist on the internet at all...believe it or not, there are recent electronic documents in existence that haven't been published on the internet, for any of a number of reasons.

                                                                                                                        You can say that you aren't finding it....but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

                                                                                                                        As above...if your curiousity is killing you to that extent, contact a hospital, research facility, or university...they might be able to direct you to what you so desperately seek.

                                                                                                                        and with this, I'm finished with this discussion.

                                                                                                3. re: latindancer

                                                                                                  It would also be horribly unfair to a pet. Some people are odd indeed.

                                                                                            2. There was a long thread about this recently. You better get used to it because I read recently that it's a trend to allow dogs in restaurants.

                                                                                              1. Not that this will please you but in France 'everyone' brings their dogs into restaurants. I can't honestly imAgine how a diner holding a dog could be 'offensive.' Do you find babies being held offensive as well? As to 'potentially unhealthy' i would think that, if poop and pee are what worry you, a baby is about 100% more likely to do those things while in a restaurant-- than a dog .
                                                                                                Your reaction reminds me that we humans can be so very different in so many things (but then we often forget that we just as often or more often than not, share so many things. ) I myself would be THRILLED to see dogs in restaurants, as I am a total animal lover. One of my fav things about vacationing in Carmel CA is the fact that it is a dog loving town where most walkers have dogs with them and some hotels welcome animals as well. I do know that some people do not share my affinity with animals, but if the dogs lie quietly, I see no reason to bar them.

                                                                                                24 Replies
                                                                                                1. re: opinionatedchef

                                                                                                  <I am a total animal lover>

                                                                                                  So am I.
                                                                                                  So are lots of people, including the ones who understand and follow the law and understand the people at the next table who may not be a 'total animal lover'.
                                                                                                  Interestingly, along these same lines, I was at a restaurant in BH recently, eating breakfast with a friend. We were sitting outside on the patio.
                                                                                                  The lady and man next to us brought 2 of their big dogs along (both on leashes and not permitted to eat there) and the dogs both jumped up on my friend without being invited. My friend, also a dog lover, calmly asked the owners to get their f*&ing dogs off her.
                                                                                                  Not everyone likes eating with dogs in a restaurant, regardless of how much they love animals.

                                                                                                  1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                    Agree. I don't mind dogs in restaurants or bars, however there is a big difference between a dog lying under the table and one sitting on a seat or being fed from a plate on someones lap.

                                                                                                    However, must disagree with Opinionatedchef: "As to 'potentially unhealthy' i would think that, if poop and pee are what worry you, a baby is about 100% more likely to do those things while in a restaurant-- than a dog".

                                                                                                    As far as I know babies don'r excrete the same worms that dogs do and so you don't risk infections with roundworms etc. So whilst both poop but the dogs poop can be quite dangerous to humans if worm larvae are ingested i.e. from a plate licked by a dog (and we all know where dogs put their noses).

                                                                                                    1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                      Not to gang up on Opinionatedchef, but I to would have to take exception to that statistic of a child or baby being 100% more likely. That's a stretch to me, let alone the fact that 99% of babies who would do that in a restaurant the movement, either liquid or solid, is self contained. I don't know of many dog's who are wearing diapers.

                                                                                                      Truthfully I just don't see the comparison at all.

                                                                                                  2. re: opinionatedchef

                                                                                                    <I>Do you find babies being held offensive as well? </i>

                                                                                                    No, but babies don't usually lick themselves "down there" then give you a kiss.

                                                                                                    1. re: monkeyrotica

                                                                                                      they do finger-paint with feces and stick their hands in your mouth to say hi, though :-) my best friend growing up in california once ate a rotting bullfrog off our driveway after it got hit by a car. it'd been there a couple days. his brother used to follow their beagle around waiting for it to poop, then eat the poop. kids can be pretty gross! ;-)

                                                                                                      1. re: chartreauxx

                                                                                                        Are you serious? Where the hell were the kid's parents? That level of inattention borders on neglect.

                                                                                                          1. re: INDIANRIVERFL

                                                                                                            Coworker who grew up in Louisiana in the '50s loves to regale me with stories of riding his bike behind the DDT truck that sprayed roads down. And who hasn't cracked open a thermometer and juggled the mercury? Like shoefitting fluoroscopes, the smell of burning autumn leaves, and sanitary napkin belts, it's just something the younger people will never experience. I weep for them.

                                                                                                            1. re: monkeyrotica

                                                                                                              +1 on Mercury. Fascinating, morphing shit.

                                                                                                              1. re: monkeyrotica

                                                                                                                Kids, never lament the loss of sanitary napkin belts. They were a PITA.

                                                                                                              2. re: INDIANRIVERFL

                                                                                                                The good ol' days! We learned on our own a lot.

                                                                                                              3. re: Jerseygirl111

                                                                                                                well, the bullfrog happened while both our moms were standing in the driveway with us, and the dog thing had his mom tearing her hair out. it's not inattention - it's kids. he did stop trying to eat dog "cookies" by the time he was around two i believe, and at the time of the frog incident we were about 3. old enough to move fast, too young to have any judgment, perfect age to gray any parents' hair! the brother my age and i are still friends, and i think fondly of both his parents.

                                                                                                                one son (the one my age) is a physical therapist. his brother (the dog doo kid) is a doctor. go figure :-)

                                                                                                                1. re: chartreauxx

                                                                                                                  Anything can happen, but letting your kid eat dog crap is a bit much.

                                                                                                                  1. re: Jerseygirl111

                                                                                                                    i think to suggest his parents, friends for years who often babysat me, are abusive or neglectful is a bit much. they were good parents, and she didn't "let" him, he occasionally snuck one by her.

                                                                                                                    1. re: chartreauxx

                                                                                                                      <Shrugs> in my world if a kid is eating dog crap that's neglectful.


                                                                                                                      1. re: chartreauxx

                                                                                                                        I used to babysit a lot in college. When one of my charges learned to walk her parents told me to keep the bathroom door closed at all times... because she liked to toddle in there and lick the toilet!

                                                                                                                        She's all grown up now and perfectly normal. :)

                                                                                                                        Kids can be strange little creatures sometimes. ;)

                                                                                                                        1. re: thingmaker

                                                                                                                          speaking of kids being weird, as a child my favorite snack that i "invented" myself as soon as i could use a butter knife and pour from a carton (steel yourself...) was a white bread peanut butter and mayonnaise sandwich with a glass of heavy cream. i kind of throw up in my mouth a little just thinking about it now. the toilet might be less disgusting! (i kids, i kids)

                                                                                                                          1. re: chartreauxx

                                                                                                                            My little brother was a fan of PB and mayo sandwiches. I took one bit and was not amused.

                                                                                                            2. re: opinionatedchef

                                                                                                              These things just don't seem comparable. It's common to leave pets home unattended (rather than taking them to a restaurant). Babies? Well, that's frowned upon.

                                                                                                              1. re: opinionatedchef

                                                                                                                I'm an animal lover, too. This issue never breaks down as animal lovers on one side, non lovers on the other.

                                                                                                                I would never bring any animal of mine to a restaurant or any other public place not intended for them.

                                                                                                                I'm more concerned about flea or tick exposure than anything else, plus some "animal lovers" don't notice nor care how bad their critters smell and bring them along everywhere anyway.

                                                                                                                1. re: opinionatedchef

                                                                                                                  When we traveled in Germany a few years ago, people took their dogs almost everywhere, We saw them quite a bit in restaurants and on the train. I must say, however, they way exceptionally well trained and well behaved, and there was none of the kissy-face, lovin' the dog up action that I have seen described here. The dogs sat by their owner's feet, or under the table, and were virtually invisible. Personally, I wouldn't take my my dog to a restaurant on a bet -- I have enough trouble just getting my husband to behave ; )

                                                                                                                  1. re: opinionatedchef

                                                                                                                    In France I saw dogs in supermarkets sitting in shopping carts with their wormy bottoms exactly where I put my lettuce and unwrapped loaf of bread. This is disgusting as well as a health hazard. And no, I do not welcome screaming babies in restaurants either, with their parents changing poopy diapers on the seat of the booth next to where I am having dinner, or snotty-nosed toddlers who nuzzle my knee while I am eating. The entitlement of dog owners and young parents is beyond belief.

                                                                                                                    1. re: Querencia

                                                                                                                      It's illegal to take dogs into supermarkets in France, too....although those canines taken into supermarkets are pampered and cosseted to a level that mon dieu, there's not a chance in hell that they'd have worms.

                                                                                                                      I'd take bigger issue with the fact that you're buying your baguette in the supermarket.

                                                                                                                  2. I thought the law was that only service dogs can be allowed inside restaurants.

                                                                                                                    23 Replies
                                                                                                                    1. re: hiddenboston

                                                                                                                      That's my understanding too..service dogs only allowed in restaurants

                                                                                                                      . restaurants can allow non service dogs on an outdoor patio.

                                                                                                                      Here's a link to a recent Globe piece which discusses service dogs and how they might not be what some have traditionally thought of as a service dog.


                                                                                                                      1. re: 9lives

                                                                                                                        That's what pisses me off. People spend a lot time and money training service animals. Service animals help peoples feel like they are part of society. They are an extension of the person they with.

                                                                                                                        As someone currently looking for a pet friendly apartment in the Boston area I get how tempting it is to say "it's a support pet". And as someone who travels I would love to save money by taking my pet for free on the plane as a "support pet". And I'm sure that I could get a doctor to sign the proper documents. I know people who have. But I won't.

                                                                                                                        1. re: viperlush

                                                                                                                          DH and I are training our puppy very hard and diligently (and expensively!) to be a therapy dog- to pass the Canine Good Citizen Test, and help others for many years to come.
                                                                                                                          It. Is. Hard.
                                                                                                                          It. Is. Work.
                                                                                                                          It. Is. Commitment.
                                                                                                                          It. Is A Lot Of Time!

                                                                                                                          So, yeah, it pisses me off too ;)

                                                                                                                          1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                            oh my gosh, we are working toward the same thing! it is why i'd never fib about her being one if she's not - it's insulting to the dogs and handlers who've earned the designation.

                                                                                                                          2. re: viperlush

                                                                                                                            I wouldn't either and I'm a very loyal and committed rescue dog(s) owner. I love my animals.

                                                                                                                            I wish more people were like you.
                                                                                                                            Unfortunately the people who offend the law are self-serving and their sense of entitlement overshadows their ability or desire to tell the truth.

                                                                                                                            1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                              So true.
                                                                                                                              If and when we pass the CGC test, we will wear it as a badge of honor and use it to help others, not wielding any sense of entitlement by taking our puppy where he ought not be.
                                                                                                                              Personally, I find food shopping (big shops) soothing and I'm in the "zone", so I can't imagine my dog there!

                                                                                                                              1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                A therapy dog certification comes with a tag or collar or vest or other designation, but it does not, and never has, entitled a dog entry to a store or other place of business that does not permit customers to bring their dogs. This was made very clear to the dog owners in the group to which my late dog belonged. In groups of 6 or so dogs and owners, we visited nursing and assisted living homes, day care programs for both children and seniors, and special needs elementary school classes.

                                                                                                                                At one point, there were negotiations about visiting children at a major Boston Hospital. But the hospital was proposing such stringent rules that most of us were not interested in participating. The dogs would have to be shampooed within X hours beforehand, with a medicated shampoo specified by the hospital, then wear shirts that covered their entire torsoes. I had the feeling that the hospital had been asked by parents to allow canine visits but was terrified of liability so was setting up every roadblock it could come up with. If memory serves, they were even going to require us owners, at our own expense, to get special insurance for our dogs.

                                                                                                                                1. re: greygarious

                                                                                                                                  A therapy dog is not a guide dog, or the like, of course.
                                                                                                                                  I would never think that once certified, my dog would be entitled to go everywhere I go.
                                                                                                                                  That's ridiculous, but I'm betting people flash that collar or vest and abuse it.

                                                                                                                                  I'm a PT, so I'm very excited to pair that clinical experience with my dog, to help patients and people.

                                                                                                                                  My puppy just graduated from puppy class, and we're on to the next level!

                                                                                                                                  1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                    Congratulations, monavano.
                                                                                                                                    To you and your puppy.

                                                                                                                                    I've watched my own dog (not a therapy dog but certainly is for us) sit with a special needs adult who may have petted her to death had we not intervened.
                                                                                                                                    This person, a relative, sat for a long, long time with our dog and petted and talked to her, as if they had some secret thing going on. Very symbiotic.
                                                                                                                                    There's no doubt in my mind her blood pressure was lowered and her whole being was quenched with some very positive, much needed calmness.
                                                                                                                                    Amazing to watch.

                                                                                                                                    1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                      My little puppy adores people and is showing signs of maturing from his Whirling Dervish phase.
                                                                                                                                      Neutering him next month should help, too!.

                                                                                                                                      1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                        Thx so much for that. I loved hearing that story.

                                                                                                                            1. re: hiddenboston

                                                                                                                              It takes literally nothing to get a service dog badge online. http://usdogregistry.org/?gclid=COGtk...

                                                                                                                              And it cannot be challenged without risking a violation of the ADA.

                                                                                                                              Crazy but true.

                                                                                                                              1. re: sal_acid

                                                                                                                                Notably, however, no epidemic of fake service dogs.

                                                                                                                                1. re: enhF94

                                                                                                                                  I don't know about an epidemic, but I have two friends who've done this and have absolutely zero need for a service dog. They did it for fun, and now take their dogs with them into restaurants and stores.

                                                                                                                                  In fact it is hard for me to imagine how the dinky dogs that typically have the badge can perform any service at all. I wonder about the % legit service dogs.

                                                                                                                                  1. re: sal_acid

                                                                                                                                    A couple of years ago when looking for a new puppy, we looked at some Scottish Terriers. The bitch was an epilepsy service dog, at category covered under ADA. At least that's what the owner said, and I have no reason to doubt her.

                                                                                                                                    While size matters with guide dogs, for other categories, it doesn't. Small might in fact be better for some jobs.

                                                                                                                                    1. re: paulj

                                                                                                                                      there are small dogs that sense seizures and anxiety attacks -- ours is not to judge.

                                                                                                                                      I do, however, thank my lucky stars that while I like taking my boys where they are welcomed, I don't have a medical need that dictates that they be by my side 24/7.

                                                                                                                                    2. re: sal_acid

                                                                                                                                      See, this is the sorta thing that makes me want to hire a helper monkey that's a 300lb Barbary Ape in a yellow vest and when he's eaten your fake service dog's face, I can say, "He's very friendly! He likes your dog!"

                                                                                                                                      1. re: monkeyrotica

                                                                                                                                        If you are accepting applications I fit the bill, including my own yellow vest.

                                                                                                                                        1. re: jrvedivici


                                                                                                                                          Makes me think of that Addams Family episode when they get a gorilla to do the ironing. :)

                                                                                                                                  2. re: hiddenboston

                                                                                                                                    It varies from state to state, and even county to county.

                                                                                                                                    1. Here's the recent, endless hashing and gnashing over pet cooties:

                                                                                                                                      It does violate regulations, which I hope will eventually change to allow controlled pets in places of business at the discretion of management. I am never, EVER, "disgusted with dogs", but often with their owners, and people in general.

                                                                                                                                        1. Nope...............go to Europe...not uncommon......and most dogs are better behaved than most diners

                                                                                                                                          1 Reply
                                                                                                                                          1. re: FriedClamFanatic

                                                                                                                                            Yes, I was in Austria recently. Dogs everywhere, restaurants, tourist attractions. My kind of place!

                                                                                                                                          2. Don't even get me started…
                                                                                                                                            Here in LA service dogs have replaced Prozac. Apparently every single person with a dog has PTSD and their dog is now a service dog to control their anxiety. It's a regular thing now for dogs to be inside grocery stores (I've seen everything from Chihuahuas to Great Danes), in restaurants, and at the movie theater. Yep. The movie theater. The worst was seeing a dog and the owner walking out of one of those Halloween maze things on the Queen Mary, where people dressed up run up and scare the shit out of you…I wanted to kill that irresponsible owner. That dog was probably scared shitless. I used to be really pissed off about seeing dogs everywhere I go, but I'm now in a more accepting phase. It's not going anywhere. And don't get me wrong, I absolutely love dogs and have two of my own. I just don't think people who choose not to have a dog should have to find dog fur in their groceries.

                                                                                                                                            13 Replies
                                                                                                                                            1. re: schrutefarms

                                                                                                                                              Dogs are hardly tall enough to shed onto food.
                                                                                                                                              otoh, you are.
                                                                                                                                              That and spittle spreading, which we all do.

                                                                                                                                              1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                No, you're right. Animals should absolutely be around places where non dog owners and lovers buy their food. Totally.

                                                                                                                                              2. re: schrutefarms

                                                                                                                                                I volunteer at an agency that serves the blind. I have seen a genuine Guide Dog sit without moving a hair on his tail for four hours until his owner gave him the command to get up. I have seen a hot thirsty Guide Dog on a summer day be given a pan of water and not start drinking it until his owner gives him the command. The discipline of these animals is astonishing. And I have heard plenty of stories from blind people of the courage and intelligence of their trained Guide Dogs. The thought that people are mocking real Guide Dogs by lying and impersonating is horrible.

                                                                                                                                                1. re: Querencia

                                                                                                                                                  Agreed….I'm wearing my "Dogs for the Deaf" sweatshirt as I type! I am all for therapy dogs for people that have special needs. The lengths some people go to (getting fake service dog vests, lying about having anxiety etc) is ridiculous, at least here in LA.. It is so inconsiderate to other people who dont want to shop/watch a movie/go to a concert next to your dog. I actually had a woman at the dog park a few months back tell me "I don't go anywhere that my dog isn't allowed to go to also" . I just thought, wow, how sad for you to be limiting the things that you could be enjoying because your dog can't come too. Even my own friends have been guilty of it on many occasions, it seems like I can't ask certain people over for dinner because I will have to answer the "can my dog come too?" question. And then I have to feel like an asshole for saying no. It's fucking weird. It's like their dog is now their boyfriend and every invite has to be extended to them.

                                                                                                                                                  1. re: schrutefarms

                                                                                                                                                    yeaaah....that's kinda over the top.

                                                                                                                                                    Nothing of that ilk in my circle in Florida...I love my dogs, love to take them places, but yeah, there are limits.

                                                                                                                                                    The only time we take them to someone else's house is if they've been specifically invited -- usually by friends who also have a dog, and usually a fenced yard.

                                                                                                                                                    1. re: schrutefarms

                                                                                                                                                      <how sad for you to be limiting the things that you could be enjoying because your dog can't come too>

                                                                                                                                                      One person's 'sad' judgement is another person's joy. In a world where there are many people who are not particularly happy, it always makes me happy when I see or hear about people that animals have made happy.
                                                                                                                                                      I could care less if they're 'missing something' that disallows animals. Heck, sfarms, you could be sad about everyone, each one for diff reasons. Maybe you'd find it sad that I chose never to attend any live sports events. And maybe someone would find it sad that you would never do some activity that they just loved.

                                                                                                                                                      imo, where love and happiness are concerned, better to admire their happiness rather than judge them.

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: opinionatedchef

                                                                                                                                                        The event in question that she was telling me about was a friends BBQ where her dog was not invited (there were too many people coming, and the host thought it would be too chaotic). So she chose not to go, hence the remark "I don't go anywhere my dog isn't allowed to go also". And yes, I thought, and think, that is sad, that she can't hang out with real-life human friends, because her furry one has to be left at home. I have no judgement on what makes a person happy-after all, I have two happy, furry faces that I get to hang out with at home every day, and they make me inexplicably happy- but limiting your world and not seeing your own friends is kind of sad--for her, and her friend that invited her over. To each their own, I guess, since in the grand scheme of things I could give a flying rats ass what this person at the dog park does with their own life, but for me, my opinion is that it is sad when someone won't socialize with their friends because their dog can't come. Not ever going to a live sporting event, or a musical, or a poetry reading seems like it would be a matter of taste, and I wouldn't ever think it was weird if someone never went to one in their entire life. But the statement "I won't go anywhere my dog isn't allowed to go" I do find very limiting, since we live in a society where dogs are not allowed to go everywhere, therefor you have just excluded yourself from doing a ton of things, and experiencing a ton of stuff. And I do think that's kind of sad!

                                                                                                                                                        1. re: schrutefarms

                                                                                                                                                          I bet if the dog could, he'd tell her to get a life of her own.

                                                                                                                                                          Dogs are fine to relax at home for reasonable periods of time.
                                                                                                                                                          I'm sure that when I leave the house, my dogs smell their farts, then fall asleep.

                                                                                                                                                          1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                            I come home to toys scattered on the floor and two passed out mutts. I'm pretty sure it's party time when I'm gone.

                                                                                                                                                            1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                              "Please, leave me alone already. I'm dying to lounge on that forbidden couch/chair/bed and lick my balls/ass for a sustained period of time. And maybe check the trash cans for tasty tidbits. Buh bye."

                                                                                                                                                              What I sometimes think they're saying come Monday morning.

                                                                                                                                                                1. re: foodieX2

                                                                                                                                                                  Took me a moment to realize what was around his neck, funny!

                                                                                                                                                  2. It's becoming an incredible problem. When I go to a grocery store there are sometimes 3-4 dogs. They are everywhere; even in my doctor's waiting room. Most of these dogs do not seem like service dogs at all. Some are off leash. When I was at the Apple Store a week ago there were two yappy dogs that were barking and got in a fight. The problem is that I have serious health problems triggered by my allergies which includes an allergy to dogs. When I complain, the employees say that they have to allow "service dogs" and can't even ask. I certainly understand the idea of service dogs, but I know that many of these people are flaunting the law. There needs to be some way to limit this tendency. For me it is a matter of danger to my health. I know that there will be a flood of responses telling me that my health problems are my own issue and people have a right to their service pets at all times.

                                                                                                                                                    5 Replies
                                                                                                                                                    1. re: bachchick

                                                                                                                                                      Can you tell which people are flauting the law with "service dogs" as opposed to service dogs?

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: LeoLioness

                                                                                                                                                        Where I live (part of LA that's known for over-the-top enabling dog owners that fit a certain profile) it's not too hard to tell…

                                                                                                                                                        It's on the part of the owner, usually not the dog.
                                                                                                                                                        Sense of entitlement dog owners/people who actually require their service dog for day-day existence:
                                                                                                                                                        The entitlement owner wears their entitlement like a badge of honor. They're smug and looking around to see who'll ask them the big question. The person who actually needs a service has a sense of humility about them. They've got the dog in its little vest and the dog actually *looks* like it's being of service.
                                                                                                                                                        Same goes for the people who illegally use handicap placards…it's not too hard to figure it out. The person who's breaking the law usually gets out of their Mercedes and struts into the business and the actual disabled placard user usually calmly and carefully enters the business.
                                                                                                                                                        Enforcing either one is almost impossible, if not impossible.

                                                                                                                                                      2. re: bachchick

                                                                                                                                                        Can you carry a mask with you?

                                                                                                                                                        1. re: bachchick

                                                                                                                                                          The employees are correct in that they likely aren't supposed to even ask. I am in the grocery business and inquired to our health department and they basically said there is nothing anyone can do. Service dogs are not limited to the traditional shepard/lab seeing eye dogs. They can be in service for emotional or psychological reasons.

                                                                                                                                                          So, get used to it and it isn't going away. Flaunting the law or not people are going to bring their dogs with them everywhere. If your allergies are that bad even having a dog in the area you need to see an allergist.

                                                                                                                                                          As far as being "disgusted" since I have 4 dogs I'm probably not the best person to judge. But people might have to adjust. Life's rough, wear a helmet.

                                                                                                                                                          As far as the OP, I'm not

                                                                                                                                                          1. I cannot recall seeing a dog in a restaurant (with the exception of assistance dogs). Outside, on the patio, yes - but not inside. I was sure it would contravene our health codes - but Googled just now to find that it isnt. All a matter of whatever the restaurant owner decides apparently.

                                                                                                                                                            1. Didn't we just beat this topic to death last month?

                                                                                                                                                              1. No. But then again, I really like dogs.

                                                                                                                                                                1. I think it depends on what one is used to. People bring their dogs into restaurants in Paris all the time.

                                                                                                                                                                  1. Heh. Know about "wild game" restaurants in China?

                                                                                                                                                                    1. I love dogs, but don't like them in restaurants and stores. Some people are allergic to them and it is just not considerate of others.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. Service Dogs: Another in that great line of politically correct scams. Next we'll see service dogs in operating rooms.

                                                                                                                                                                        28 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: beevod

                                                                                                                                                                            Seeing eye dogs are scams? Does that make police dogs scams too?

                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: foodieX2

                                                                                                                                                                              Service dog's are a far broader category than just seeing eye dog's. Not that I am an expert on this issue I believe most of the "scams" are regarding the use of "service" animals for PTSD or anxiety disorders. People who claim they require the company of a service dog to properly function, stay calm while in a public setting. This is where I believe the service dog area is very susceptible to fraud.

                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                It should be no surprise, given my user name and avatar, that I am involved in the rescue and rehoming of racing greyhounds. There is currently at least one official program which trains these dogs to be physical support dogs for disabled veterans who need help maintaining their balance when standing and walking, and as emotional support dogs for those with PTSD. Given how quiet, calm, and docile most greyhounds are, they are ideal for these roles. But people who do not know the breed assume they are hyper and would not think of them as legitimate service dogs.

                                                                                                                                                                                Seizure alert dogs can be any size, any breed. They have to have a natural ability to detect incipient seizures and alert humans to them. Training for such dogs merely refines this instinctive behavior so that the dog performs specific actions to signal the owner to lie down. Don't judge a book by its cover.

                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: greygarious

                                                                                                                                                                                  I have heard of these seizure dogs and I would never dispute that they perform a real service to people. I was really referring to these 2 specific cases-- trust me, if you knew the people involved, you'd understand why I was so skeptical.

                                                                                                                                                                                  And anyway, as I said in an earlier post, I'm in the camp that believes people SHOULD be permitted to bring their dogs into stores &restaurants. If nothing else it probably would cut down on people running service dog scams.

                                                                                                                                                                                  BTW my neighbors have an Italian greyhound and he is indeed a sweet, affectionate boy -- as long as you don't get between him and his biscuit! :)

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: greygarious

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for pointing this out. People make this type of assumption when they see someone park in handicap parking, too. They might appear perfectly fine so people judge them on limited information. And, they can be confrontational, too.

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: chowser

                                                                                                                                                                                      If the person displays the legal credentials for handicap parking, then there should never be any question. But if you don't have a hangtag or plate, all bets are off.

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: Jerseygirl111

                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes, I agree, but you'd be surprised at the number of people who challenge it based on what they see. Mostly in loud passive aggressive comments, sadly.

                                                                                                                                                                                  2. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                                                                                                    Very susceptible.

                                                                                                                                                                                    It's a major problem in CA…particularly where I live in LA.
                                                                                                                                                                                    So major, in fact, that the CA legislator is working hard to change the way the law is worded.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Business owners, at this point, are sitting back without confronting the dog owners who they know are offenders.
                                                                                                                                                                                    To word a question wrong could result in a lawsuit and the owners of these dogs know it.

                                                                                                                                                                                2. re: beevod

                                                                                                                                                                                  Seeing eye and police dogs are in a class by themselves. That's a given. But schlepping a mutt into a restaurant so you can "stay calm" and chew your soup is just plain wrong.

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: beevod

                                                                                                                                                                                    all seeing-eye dogs are service dogs. Not all service dogs are seeing-eye dogs.

                                                                                                                                                                                    There are lots of dogs who are legitimately trained to give mobility assistance, sense high or low blood sugar, sense seizures of various origins, and to sense when their human is succumbing to an anxiety attack.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Service dogs come in all sizes and all breeds, and a Yorkie who has been trained to spot an epilectic seizure is no less legitimate a service animal than a hulking German Shepherd

                                                                                                                                                                                    I was just talking this weekend with a guy who trains service dogs for the blind...he said that they use very few Shepherds any more, as the liability has become too great (they can be intimidating)

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm seeing a lot of poodles around here.

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: coll

                                                                                                                                                                                        poodles are incredibly intelligent *and* they tend to shed less and have less dander than other breeds, making them at least less of a trigger for the allergic crowd.

                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                                                                        The amount of time and love and WORK that goes into the making of service dogs is astounding.

                                                                                                                                                                                        People are very LUCKY to be able to have one.

                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                                                                          This makes me sad. What liability? They're trained to protect and guide. Intimidating? I'm not questioning your facts, Sunshine, but I'm saddened that a dog so beautiful, with eyes that are so kind, has had to suffer the stereotype of being the 'nazi' dog in a very horrible time in our history.

                                                                                                                                                                                          I love Shepherds for a variety of reasons. They're intelligent, loyal, agile, beautiful and highly trainable.
                                                                                                                                                                                          Bruno, 'our' beloved police Shepherd who was shot in the face by a criminal, has retired…nobody deserves it more.
                                                                                                                                                                                          Those of us who are dog/animal lovers waited in anticipation while he was undergoing surgery to save his life.
                                                                                                                                                                                          I've always loved these dogs. Every time I see one helping his/her companion walk steps, walk across the street, I'm amazed at their loyalty to their owner.

                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                            there've been enough claims from bites and attacks that insurance agencies won't insure the training agencies.

                                                                                                                                                                                            I totally get that anecdotes do not make data -- but the only time I've ever been chased down and bitten by a dog was by a Shepherd (utterly unprovoked, by the way -- TWICE). Fortunately, I wasn't hurt past what a bandaid would fix but I now give them a wide berth. Not phobic by any stretch, but I don't offer to cuddle up with them, either.

                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                                                                              Part of it's liability, part of it is shepherds really bond to their individual trainers, more than the retrievers that are quickly becoming the norm. It's tough, not impossible, to get a shepherd to transfer its loyalty from its puppy raiser to the formal trainer and then to the person its assigned to. At least that's what I've been told by people who are involved in the guide dog world.

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: lsmutko

                                                                                                                                                                                                Are police dogs raised by the offcers they work with?

                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: Jerseygirl111

                                                                                                                                                                                                  No. But once they are paired with an officer they usually live with that officer for the rest of their career and once retired, stay on as the family pet.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Jerseygirl111

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sometimes but not usually. They get their "basic" training to see if being a police dog is a good fit and go live with the officer once it's determined they'll make a good law enforcement dog. Training is ongoing. Like gregarious said, though, they stay with that officer for life.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: Hobbert

                                                                                                                                                                                                      And the officer is also trained to have the dog.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: cleobeach

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Oh, definitely. They train together for as long as the dog is in law enforcement.

                                                                                                                                                                                                2. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                                                                                  <there've been enough claims from bites and attacks>

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've never heard about those statistics in all the literature I've read about Shepherds. I'd never hesitate to own one though…I know too many people who've owned them over the years and wouldn't own any other type of dog.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  In these parts the little innocuous looking Chihauhua is labeled as the 'bites and attack' dog…the rescue shelters are loaded with them, unable to adopt them out.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm telling you what the guy who works for the guide dog training association told me. They can't use Shepherds because they will lose their insurance.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Pretty sure he has nothing to gain by making up shit.

                                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: beevod

                                                                                                                                                                                              many of these "mutts being schlepped into restaurants so you can stay calm and chew your soup" are highly trained animals.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Many are used as therapy dogs for combat veterans who are suffering from PTSD, as well as other disorders besides blindness and the use of seeing eye dogs.

                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm fine with people who actually need the dogs as a companion.

                                                                                                                                                                                              OTOH, apparently particularly in CA according to some posts, there is great abuse of this law re service dogs.

                                                                                                                                                                                              THis is wrong and is on a par with faking a limp and going to a friendly doc to. Get handicapped parking sticker.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Here's a link I posted when this thread was in its first few posts and properly moved from the Boston board where the OP posted it.


                                                                                                                                                                                              It's not a question of whether someone "likes" or doesn't like dogs in restaurants, or likes dogs but not in restaurants, etc. it's the the law as stated in the ADA, as long as the dog is a legitimate service dog.

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: 9lives

                                                                                                                                                                                                Even big, burly men have PTS, and they might need a teacup poodle to get through their day.

                                                                                                                                                                                                More power to them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a Shi Tzu and I should have PTS from all the shit I get from my friends for having one!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                    +1 -- whatever it takes to unbreak those guys.

                                                                                                                                                                                            3. On given the choice of "ankle biters" in restaurants, I prefer canine over homo sapiens.

                                                                                                                                                                                              1 Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                              1. i think a well-behaved canine (a clean, quiet one that stays put and does not beg, bark, disturb others, etc) can be an excellent addition to a dining experience. more and more places here in seattle are allowing dogs - i love it! i take my lab puppy with me often. it teaches her to be quiet, accept hustle and bustle, be comfortable in (sometimes noisy) crowded settings, experience socializing with everything from babies to seniors. it's great and i love having her with me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                i don't find it offensive - it's certainly not unhealthy (unless you're licking the floor hoping to contract giardia or something) as dogs carry relatively few illnesses communicable to people and none of them are airborne. i think it's at the discretion of the establishment. personally i like it and wish more places allowed/encouraged dogs. i don't take offense when they do and suki stays home. i don't find it gross, disgusting or offensive - i do think people should respect establishments that DON'T welcome four-legged guests, but i also wish more places stopped buying into the idea that dogs are somehow unsanitary or inappropriate.

                                                                                                                                                                                                47 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: chartreauxx

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think this could get a little tricky, don't you?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  So, how about if I bring my bird and cat along with me because I can't really stand the thought of my bird missing me? She's very social, loves people, entertains on cue and follows my commands. I could teach my cat to walk with a leash nd my bird's fine on my arm…she's very, very clean…
                                                                                                                                                                                                  No human is going to contract a disease from my bird, I promise.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                    no objection here, same rules apply (and my cat also walks on a leash and has been to pet-friendly coffee shops). i had a friend whose african gray parrot rode everywhere with her. i don't mind people's animals as long as the establishment allows it, the animal is quiet, clean and polite, and is removed if it ceases to be so - just like kids or adults. just me though :) heck, bring your fish in a baggie if you like, though that's probably not too healthy for the fish (a lot of stress).

                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: chartreauxx

                                                                                                                                                                                                      You're so open-minded and accommodating!

                                                                                                                                                                                                      So now…

                                                                                                                                                                                                      With this utopia you're describing, where everyone brings every known animal with them because it's 'in the best interest of the animal and human to do so'…
                                                                                                                                                                                                      What should the law-abiding citizen, who follows the rules in order that we all get along out there, supposed to do who's allergic to cats, dogs and birds? Wear a mask? Take their meds, etc.?

                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                        go to an establishment that doesn't allow animals. same as if you don't like kids, go to a restaurant that's 21+ only or doesn't allow kids under a certain age.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: chartreauxx

                                                                                                                                                                                                          There are restaurants with age restrictions on the customers? I've never seen or heard of that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: carolinadawg

                                                                                                                                                                                                            This opened just last year. I wonder if its still doing well?


                                                                                                                                                                                                            Its also very common a resorts. They often have adults-only restaurants, pools, etc

                                                                                                                                                                                                            ETA- this one made the news too

                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: carolinadawg

                                                                                                                                                                                                              around here, some request no children (ie, under 12), and some simply choose to be a "bar" instead of a restaurant (which is then automatically 21+. it's pretty easy to do this in seattle, since if you have a bar area and it's not fenced off/separated, and/or you cannot access the restroom without passing through said bar... you're a bar and the whole joint is 21+. kind of nice really, for times i don't want the kid experience. it's too bad because well-behaved kids have a place at any restaurant. it's the poorly behaved ones i want to avoid... alas, the broad brush seems to be the only feasible way...

                                                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: chartreauxx

                                                                                                                                                                                                              So, essentially, you're breaking the law and asking others, who are following the law, to go elsewhere.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                what? when am i breaking laws? i take my dog to restaurants where she's welcome, and i don't have kids. i'm almost 28 - i'm allowed in any bar i want. i'm not breaking any laws at all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: chartreauxx

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Missed this post…
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Once again there are two different things being discussed here, apparently.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've always been talking about people who lie about alleged permits they have and bring their dog where only legal working dogs are allowed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You're talking about pet friendly businesses where, of course, your dog is welcomed by all, including me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Two different things.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    so sorry we misunderstood each other! i'd never, EVER lie to bring my dog somewhere. we go only where we are welcome, but i love to bring her with me when i can. i only take her into businesses that either explicitly advertise it, ones where i've asked and been told yes, or ones where i've observed many people bringing non-service dogs. personally, i would love to see more pet-friendly businesses, and i am not grossed out by pets in restaurants... but i always, ALWAYS respect the laws of the area and the boundaries set by the establishment's owner. i think we pretty seriously crossed the streams! my apologies.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            3. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                              They do what other people with allergies do-limit exposure.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Should 5 Guys stop serving free peanuts or should the person who is allergic avoid 5 Guys?

                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have severe seasonal allergies. Should my town cut down the flowering trees? Should I petition the state to kill all the golden rod in the adjacent state park? Or would it be better for me take my meds and invest in a good home air purifier?

                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: foodieX2

                                                                                                                                                                                                                We're talking about people who are breaking the law with their animals. They KNOW they're breaking the law when they tell the proprietor they've got a permit and, of course, they'd don't. We're not talking about legal service dogs. Nobody's debating the law abiding citizens.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Your town isn't breaking the law with the flowering trees.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Of course I adapt to the trees that are placed along my street…I'm allergic to them but I take my medication.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Please try and understand the difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                The guy who's selling peanuts isn't breaking the law.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Entirely different argument that simply doesn't apply to what we're discussing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  But you are talking about legal service animals. If a proprietor has the legal right to allow dogs or if a patron has the papers identifying his pet as a service animal then they are considered legal. Just because you can't see the disability or don't believe them doesn't matter.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: foodieX2

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <But you are talking about legal service animals>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    No I'm not….whatever gave you that idea? We're talking about dog owners who're bringing their dog into an establishment pretending the dog is permitted.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    foodie…please try and understand this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The proprietor is allowed to ask the dog owner if they're serviced. The dog owner simply says 'yes' and is not, by law, obliged to show the permit. They simply say, "my dog is permitted and I left the permit at home". The business owner has to take the dog owner's word for it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The proprietor is not allowed to ask what the service dog is used for. If the proprietor is allowing the dog, whether it's a service dog or otherwise? That's a different story.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have no problem with a service dog being in a restaurant/market/spa/nail salon…they're legal and working.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      But where are all these scofflaws and why does it bother you so much?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      And how do you know they are lying? Seriously LD, try to understand this. Not everyone is an asshole.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I tend to err on the side of trusting the average folks with a service animal. Same way I trust those who park in handicaps spots with no visible one. I figure many would gladly leave their animal at home or give up their parking spots not to have a disability.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: foodieX2

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Southern California.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm assuming you don't live here so this may be more of a regional issue, not understood by those who've not experienced it. I'll give you that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I trust people who have a legitimate, permitted working animal….they carry their permit, their dog is highly trained and their dog is working, not visiting or being petted by complete strangers. However, that's not what this discussion is about.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We also have a big problem with people who use illegal parking placards….they steal them, they use their dead relative's parking permit…all sorts of ways to get them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        For people who're truly handicapped they, many times and I know a few, are unable to find parking spots.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Dead issue for those who don't live in S Cal…obviously you don't understand the issue(s).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: foodieX2

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In my local newspaper, there have been numerous cases of folks bringing dogs into apt/co-op/condo complexes where they're forbidden and then fighting enforcement of the bylaws by saying the dog is for emotional support.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          i don't take my dog in and claim she's a service dog, i take her to restaurants that *openly advertise and promote* that PETS, note PETS, are welcome and there is a menu for the dogs, treats and water bowls provided by staff, etc. where i live, it's NOT illegal to bring a pet into a restaurant, it is up to the BUSINESS to decide if they wish to allow pets or not. perhaps you missed where someone else upthread pointed out the legality of this varies widely from city to city, and state to state. but pets aren't always banned legally, and people bringing pets, as i do, to establishments that CATER to them, are not lying, deceiving anyone, or breaking so much as a single comma of the law. you seem to have misinterpreted people who support dogs being allowed in restaurants, as somehow demanding they be allowed in every single one. not at all! i just want any legal complications lifted, so that business owners can decide for themselves if they want to allow animals - just as they decide if they want to offer vegetarian, kosher, halal, gluten free, vegan, etc options, alcohol, a kid's menu, allow kids, allow parties over a certain size, take reservations, not take reservations, and any of a million other choices establishments make (based upon which we choose where we wish to take our business).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: chartreauxx

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I totally, 100%, made a point, on another post, of stating there's a big difference between a 'pet friendly' business, that actually welcomes pets, and a business that is doing it's best to try and decipher who is actually breaking the law without risking getting sued. These businesses are totally different from each other.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The ones who are breaking the law (lying about a permit they don't have) are much different than people like you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If you'd have read the entirety of my post(s) you'd have realized that. Or, maybe not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              uh maybe we didn't read each other too well, then, because upthread you did tell me i was breaking the law... :-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: chartreauxx

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I apologize, chartreauxx…if I didn't clarify that with you earlier.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I believe 2 different subjects are being talked about.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  i agree. i am aligned with you: don't lie about service animal status! but i also adore pet-friendly businesses and love to frequent them when i can.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3. re: foodieX2

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I should think that a major difference would be whether the owner lied to get the papers. "I get nervous unless Fido is with me" or "I think the no-dog law is silly so I get around it however I can" is not really the same as "I am totally blind and cannot cross the street without Fido".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: Querencia

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Again how am to know the owner lied? Just because I don't see the handicap doesn't mean it isn't real. If I see an animal with a service tag or vest I give I the owner the benefit of the doubt. Same with handicap placards. Life is too short to get my panties in a twist about something I can't control.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            All that being said I will be the first one to make the call if someone admitted to me they lied to get legal papers. The same way I called someone out and reported them when they continued using their grandfathers placard months after he passed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: foodieX2

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Unfortunately, there are websites where, for a fee, you can get all the paraphernalia -- a vest for your dog, and some official-looking certificates, just by filling out an application. You can say anything you want on it. So theoretically even if someone challenges you for bringing your baby -- uh, dog -- into a restaurant or business that's not pet-friendly, you could whip out the certificate. And who are they to say it's not legit?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: medrite

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <and who are they to day it's not legit>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Exactly. Until there are crack downs it's not for me to challenge the *individual*. And honestly? dogs out in public is not a high priority on issues I am working to change. The issues that I am actively part of are much more important to me than the random dog in a restaurant or grocery store.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: foodieX2

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Agree- it's rude and entitled, but I'm also not going to get my panties in a twist.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Unless the dog craps on the floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  That would be bad.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <Unless the dog craps on the floor. That would be bad>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Oh, I've seen that happen…about a month ago in a pharmacy, actually. The owner in the pharmacy asked them to pick up their dog's crap, they refused and so the owner of the pharmacy cleaned it up themselves. Point is…there's very little recourse, under the law, for the owner to do anything else.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Again, this is obviously a regional issue…not everyone understands what's happening here in LA.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    There're lots of regional issues here that when I mention to a friend in say, Chicago recently, they just drop their jaw and shake their head.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It's funny.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Here on the east coast where I live, we don't see such an awful degree of entitlement.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It's been eye-opening to hear these stories, and no wonder the fierce opposition at times.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I can't even imagine, not in my wildest imagination, walking away from my dog's droppings outdoors, let alone indoors.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "LA Story" starring Steve Martin.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Did you ever watch this film?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It's a very hilarious, accurate description of this great city.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Inevitably, when dining with friends from LA, stories are told about some crazy thing someone's seen or experienced and everyone howls with laughter because we all get it. It's a different animal, this city.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        For the most part living in a city like this is entertaining…the bizarre, the crazy, the surreal….it's all here and most people, who're unfamiliar with the culture, can be a little shellshocked.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The girl, who I described, who left her dog poop on the floor in the pharmacy, wouldn't have cleaned it up in a billion years…it was beneath her. Her dog. But someone else, most likely, does the dirty work for her.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I do remember that movie!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Colonics- what????????????

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I just remember that whole thing about her name. He comments how its so normal until she says its spelled "capital S, small a, small n, capital D, small e, capital E"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: foodieX2

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yup. I'm disabled, but not visibly so. In fact, I appear perfectly healthy and have received many many comments to that effect. But that doesn't stop me from being disabled.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yeah...wear a mask........and sit next to the person who is allergic to perfumes, the other who can't even get near peanuts or anything with gluten

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Not tricky at all. If the place allows animals what's the harm in bringing your well behaved pet regardless of breed? And if someone doesn't care for them they can go elsewhere.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I avoid typical "family friendly" chains because many parents deem them to be a free for all (and the food isn't good). But even if the food was good I don't care to eat around screaming kids whose parents ignore them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If I disliked animals (which I don't) I would avoid the pet friendly places too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: foodieX2

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The majority of businesses that are 'allowing' the animals in their businesses (of course there are exceptions) are allowing it because, at this point in CA, they have no recourse based on the way the law is written.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Their attorneys are looking into helping change the laws so it's worded where the owners of the businesses can ask the offenders questions without the threat of getting sued.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm well aware of the law and CA is beginning to take note.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There's a huge difference between the businesses that are pet friendly and the businesses that are having to put up with laws by legislators that are purely unenforceable.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        People can't generally contract illnesses from birds, but birds can definitely catch illnesses from people. Birds should never be allowed near people (or pigs) who may carry the (airborne) influenza virus. You should be careful taking your bird into public places, especially during flu season.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Also, birds should never be allowed in places where high-heat cooking takes place (restaurants, kitchens in general), as cookware (especially that with non-stick coatings like teflon, but also some steel and cast-iron) releases chemicals at high heat that can kill a bird almost instantly. Most cookware with non-stick coatings actually has warnings about this on their packaging. This chemical probably isn't safe for dogs or cats (or people?), either, but the effect on them isn't instantly lethal like it is with birds.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: jilkat25

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I don't know of many people who take their birds out of their home and when they do they're very careful where they go with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          But, then again, I'm acquainted with very responsible pet owners who know their pet and wouldn't ever put their pet in harm's way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of course!.a man walks into a bar with a parrot on his shoulder......the bartender says, hey Butthead, you can't bring that stinky vermin in here!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The parrot apologizes

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: jilkat25

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            there are several serious illnesses in the last several years (including SARS, I believe) that were passed from birds to people.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, it's rare, but when it does happen, it's hardcore serious.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Not SARS - that was I believe civet cats.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              H5N1(Avian Flu) is one though and it's very serious. Advice is to avoid areas with birds and poultry and definitely avoid touching them if there is an outbreak - luckily confined to Asia at the moment I believe.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks - the cat theory was the one at the time - I was in Hong Kong back then and it was scary.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I had a customer who was on the airplane with Patient #1...his description of his virtual house arrest (military guards to enforce the quarantine!) was really unsettling.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My aunt was a cardiac nurse for patient zero here in Toronto (Scarborough if you want to be scientific.) Her story of hospital quarantine is terrifying.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      3. People are suggesting that if you are allergic you should stay away from places that allow dogs. We're not just talking about restaurants. There are dogs (not just service dogs, but little lap dogs that are clearly untrained to do anything but be cute) in grocery stores and doctor's offices. You might be able to avoid restaurants easily but there aren't that many choices for groceries or doctors. The old health laws worked fine. No pets allowed. There needs to be a strict certification for service dogs as there is for disabled placards. Of course there would be a few cheaters, but I would not run into 3-4 dogs at my local Trader Joe's or have to change doctors. Masks don't help; neither do medications.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: bachchick

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          nobody said it would be mandatory that establishments allow animals - i just like it when places do allow my dog, and i wish there were more such places. not by any means suggesting EVERY place should allow my dog. it's just always nice when some do.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. Nope. If you really want to keep restaurants sanitary, you would need to ban people.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. Maybe its time to get a python seeing eye snake or a boa constrictor protector and take it with me to the next restaurant I attend. Lets remember its a RESTAURANT, not a gd ZOO!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. For me it has nothing to do with the sanitary aspect; if it did, I would not be eating out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              While I have no sane, rational reason for it, I do not want to dine with animals within the confines of the four walls of a restaurant. I am a human being. I just do not find it appetizing or the experience I am expecting when I dine out. Again, I can't give a specific reason, but I just do not like it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              4 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: ttoommyy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Curious- do you dine in homes that have pets?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: foodieX2

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sure. My brother owns a dog. But that is in a person's private home where I am not paying to dine. When I dine out and pay good $$ for it, I do not expect to dine with animals. I understand that people treat their pets like part of the family and some even call them "children" but they are in fact not human beings.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  And now I'll say something you probably did not guess... I love animals! Always have, since I was a kid. I just do not want to dine out with them. I'm not even a fan of them being in retail stores.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: ttoommyy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Actually if the restaurant is privately owned and there are no health code laws against it the owners do have the right to allow pets. And when closed many often bring in their own.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I honestly was curious because as a dog owner I can attest that I do not clean my dining area as often as restaurant clean theres. And while I keep a very clean home I doubt my kitchen would pass a state inspection if they did a surprise visit. My dogs spend a lot of time there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    But it sounds like it not the cleanliness issue of dining with pets for you, as it seems to be for many on this thread, it's that when its you paying for the meal you want to do on your terms. Different perspective.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2. re: ttoommyy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Could be pet hair flying around your dish?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3. Dogs in restaurants can potentially be as big a health hazard as second hand smoke is.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  7 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: antiki

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    oh gosh, you're right! i forgot that recent study proving dogs cause cancer.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: antiki

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My dog farts like a Howitzer, so yeah...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Pro tip: port wine cheese and Saint Bernards don't mix. Seriously, it's like a mustard gas attack on the Somme.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: monkeyrotica

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My dogs lurvvvvvv them some beans ;(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. Went to a bar in Baltimore one night. Cute friendly black lab walking about. Didn't get in the way and many didn't notice. At the end of the night, as we were getting ready to leave someone reminded us not to forget our dog. Nope not ours, or anyone else still present. Either a stray spent the whole evening chillin in the bar or someone forgot it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          And my cat just fared in my face. Do we really need animals farting in restaurants?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just throwing it out there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. My eldest dog, Diesel, loves restaurant food as much as the next person. But he doesn't belong inside a restaurant.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It's either the takeout window or drive through and then he dines al fresco

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            28 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: bagelman01

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cute pooch! i hear where you're coming from; otoh, i know when we go to dog friendly restaurants, my suki never bothers anyone. she sits right by my chair and/or lies under the table, wags her tail and introduces herself if someone says hi, but never bother anybody or begs and if she barks, she gets one warning and then we leave. i think either approach is fine - it's all down to your personal comfort level, and how your dog acts in a restaurant! of course we only ever go to places where it's known, understood and expected there will be several dogs present. i'd never drag her into an establishment where it wasn't the norm.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: chartreauxx

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Suki is just a little one who fits comfortably under the table.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                We have four dogs. Diesel and Charley are each in the 75 lb range and don't leave room for anyone's feet if they were under the table. Kirby our miniature Yorkshire Terrier or Zoey our little shi tzu would be appropriate sizes to be under the table but are not well behaved enough to dine in public.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My brother has an 11 year old Golden retriever who dines at dog friendly restaurants with bro and SIL. He is guide dog trained. Bro is diabetic and goes into low sugar shock, SIL is severe heart patient. This morning the Golden found SIL on the floor and ran to neighbors for help. SIL is now in hospital having 3 stents put in.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                As far as I'm concerned their dog can dine with us anytime.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: bagelman01

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bman, Thx so much for that big grin. I NEEDED that! Deserving of a caption contest!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: opinionatedchef

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I love my dogs (and my cats and daughters). BUT my attachment to my dogs and spoiling them doesn't give me the right to impose them upon others in a restaurant.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am a baby boomer, I both follow rules and question them. If I disagree with a rule, I work to change it, I don't ignore it in a sense of entitlement. That is just plain rude and ignorant.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  There is a time and place for every thing, and a public restaurant is not a place for your uninvited canine. In the case of legitimate service dogs, they are invited: by act of law.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I understand the restrauntuers in SoCal being afraid of sue happy patrons and not challenging patrons with lapdogs, it is very hard to lead a stable life in the land of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: bagelman01

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "I am a baby boomer, I both follow rules and question them. If I disagree with a rule, I work to change it, I don't ignore it in a sense of entitlement. That is just plain rude and ignorant."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Amen! I think I will get a t-shirt with this statement on it. Thank you!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: ttoommyy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I appreciate your agreement.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It is all about civility, something that has disappeared since the me generation of the 1980s has become adults (age not maturation) and spawned another generation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If I wanted to take my dog inside a restaurant I'd make sure that it was a dig friendly restaurant and that it was permitted. I certainly wouldn't lie about my dog's status as a guide dog in order to bring the dog in where he/she truly is not wanted.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This reminds me of warnings from my parents some 50+ years ago. Never make up an excuse for not doing something saying something bad occurred (which hadn't) as you may be wishing it on yourself. Lie about needing a guide dog and you may just end up needing one much sooner than you think and the chances are that pocket puppy wouldn't be qualified to help you do everyday living.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: bagelman01

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Love your dog--if it were mine, she'd have jumped through the window but we're still in training. I'll go out on a limb and say there is no one here who thinks dogs belong in restaurants that don't accept dogs or agrees w/ the practice of pretending their dog is a service dog to bring them in so there are a lot of straw man arguments here. The OP asked whether dogs belong in restaurants, not whether people should pretend their dogs are service dogs, etc. I love dogs, love my puppy but I'd say no in most restaurants--there are exceptions, super casual places that have outdoor seating, beach places, sure. Let's say if I have to wear shoes, there should be no dogs, other than the allotted service animals.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: chowser

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I agree that throwing out the poseurs who pass their dogs off as service animals is a wasted argument here, as I think CH dog owners are far more respectful than that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I know we'll be nervous when we take our puppy to a restaurant the first time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            He's not ready yet, but when he is, DH and I will be ready to pack the food up, pay and leave if he doesn't behave.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              LOL, kind of like having kids. I need to learn to train our puppy because I can't imagine bringing her into a restaurant w/ all that food and others seem to manage fine. OTOH, all that noise and confusion and she'll probably be terrified and not leave our arms. I won't be bringing her to a restaurant any time soon, if at all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: chowser

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                IME, dogs are far more trainable than kids.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: tcamp

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My kids were super easy, well behaved as toddlers so I smugly pat for knowing how to control the situation. Fast forward to now and my terrier rescue puppy (we thought she was a retriever...) is the one who's running out of control, all excited and friendly. Hence, she will not be seeing the inside of a restaurant, even on that absolutely loves dogs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: chowser

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have a long history of dogs who ate 'human food'

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              When I was 10 my parents got me a Golden Retriever, who lived with me for 17 years. He ate human food, as well as dog food. He adored vanilla ice cream cups. In those days we had a Good Humour man named Sam working our route. Good Humour had distributed white cardboard signs with a Blue G that you could put in your front window to let the route man know to stop. Our dog figured out how to stand the sign up in our foyer window. Sam would stop and bring a vanilla cup to the door, open it and set it down on the tile foyer floor for the dog. No one locked their houses in those days. Every Friday afternoon, Sam would stop and collect for whatever the dog ate during the week. The dog also enjoyed treats from the Dugan's Cake man. Life was so much simpler 50 years ago. No locked doors, all types of food deliveries and dogs were free to run about the neighborhood without a leash. and you could be sure if anyone was grilling the assorted dogs would all get a treat. Next door neighbor was a butcher, he had my dog's litter mate. My golden weighed 65 lbs, the butcher's Golden weighed 110 lbs. Mine lived 17 years, their's live 21 years on a diet of fresh beef every day and never an ounce of dog food.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: bagelman01

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Great story.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Our dogs get to enjoy doggy frozen treats from our soft serve place.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  We have a local place that gives out dog cones too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2. re: bagelman01

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'll bet the Good Humor man loved your dog, too. My puppy loves human food--if she were allowed to roam the way they did 50 years ago, she would never come home!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: chowser

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If like Pavlov you did the same thing at the same time everyday she might respond by coming home on schedule.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My dogs know that at 3:30 PM I'm outside cooking their food on the grill whether it's 90 degrees and sunny or 0 degrees and snowing and they're all alert and headed to the mudroom to be fed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: bagelman01

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      One of my dogs (and one that passed last year) knows exactly what time dinner is served.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It doesn't matter if it's daylight savings, summer or winter.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you think they can tell the time or do you think they maybe picking up on behavioural cue's that you exhibit?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I think it's cues, but it really is uncanny.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've read and been told by trainers that they have an uncanny sense of time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: chowser

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              My mom would be cleaning the bathroom or doing the laundry downstairs and our Belgian Shepherd would whine, moan and bark until she was let out to meet us at the bus stop a half mile away. Every day, for years. Dogs are the shizz…

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If I'm delayed in my office (which is attached to the house) one of the older dogs will come to the door and start making noises until I get up and head towards the garage and the grill.................................

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I avoid making appointments after 2 PM or before 4:15 PM. Working for myself that's not a problem. Occasionally I have to impose on Mrs B or Miss B to cook for the dogs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: bagelman01

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If there is a heaven, this is what it's like- except the ice cream is free and all dogs live forever. I'm actually tearing up right now!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Growing up in a small town in the 70s we never locked our doors. Looking back it seems incredible but it happened. You don't know what you've got til it's gone, and all that jazz. ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We have 4 rescue dogs. Being rescue dogs, they all have their individual behavioral quirks... AND they're huge and slobbery, shed constantly, are overly affectionate and smell like feet no matter how often they are bathed. They're completely unbearable and I love them! :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        However I'd never even think about inflicting their awesomeness on innocent strangers just trying to eat a peaceful dinner. ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: thingmaker

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          with 4, I do get it...plus, it's just a PITA for you to get them all loaded up, find room for them all to sit at a restaurant.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          We recently took in a second pup who needed a new home, and just adding the second has narrowed down the places we take them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: sunshine842


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            At this point our dogs are pretty much limited to neighborhood dog parades (happens once a year) and the nearby nature preserve. There's a waterfall there and they love to swim in the natural rock pools.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Getting them all into the car is a big production. I should film it one of these days. ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: bagelman01

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I wouldn't want my dog digging at a restaurant even if it is dig friendly.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    3. re: ttoommyy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Another example: News here yesteday was a woman who attended a trade fair as a vendor bringing her 10-day-old infant along. Fair has a no-children rule and asked her to leave and take the baby with her. So of course she raised a ruckus. Rules are for everyone but the special people.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2. Doesn't bother me one whit.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. I get the offended comments because others are breaking the law, and sometimes have badly behaved dogs that shouldn't be around people (restaurant or not), but unhealthy? A lot of us have dogs in our houses that dine with us, and "unhealthy" is not a concern. Do you have issues with dining at someones house when they have dogs (assuming the house is reasonably clean, the dog reasonably groomed and behaved)?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  3 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: firecooked

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    No issue with a dog at a all. But that is is they are on the floor, but if they are on a seat "eating at the table" or the serving dishes are put on the floor I would have a problem. The same is true when I see cats sitting on prep surfaces of kitchens.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dogs and cats do pick-up and carry things that can be pretty nasty for humans. The worms/parasites found in dog faeces can cause blindness in humans if ingested. If the dog stays on the floor fine, but if the dog is at the table or using the same bowls as humans then there is a risk of transmission.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I love dogs in restaurants and pubs - but only if they are not being treated like surrogate humans and stay on the ground.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: PhilD

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Aren't you making a bit of jump from worms in feces to bowls that a dog might lick clean? Normally restaurant dishes and serving bowls are sent through a high temperature dish washer before they get used again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: paulj

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I thought it was good practice if a pet owner not to mix up pet bowls with the ones you use yourself. Agree, good cleaning practices and high temperature washing helps, but just prefer to remove the vector - dogs put their noses into all sorts of places that I don't want to know about.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My wife always say dogs are not people they like being treated like dogs. And i think thats good advice. I live in a country with a major epidemic of a dog disease that stops them being able to walk so they go around in a stroller and that where their fur needs to be shorn off and they get dressed in kids clothes. Each to their own but the should not be eating at the table sitting on a chair. Weird.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  2. I don't care as long as the dog is reasonably well behaved. If it's not using the restaurant like a bathroom or a fight ring I'm fine with them being there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I do find it slightly amusing that so many people act like dogs immediately become unsanitary or disease vectors the second they leave their home.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Are you only friends with people that don't have pets and kids? Do you never eat at anyones house who has a pet?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. If it's not a legit service dog, it has no place in a restaurant or food store.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      7 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: petek

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        unless that restaurant has a sign saying that dogs are welcomed on the patio, in jurisdictions where this is legal.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Even on a patio I still find it kinda gross, legal or otherwise..

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: petek


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Do you not visit the homes of friends with dogs?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            They're below table level, so there's really nothing they could do in the way of bodily functions that could end up even near your plate....and I've yet to meet a dog owner who would take an incontinent pooch out in public.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            You do realize that birds and insects sit ON the table on patios, right?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "You do realize that birds and insects sit ON the table on patios, right?"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nothing we can do about the birds and the bees, right?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm just glad I live in a city that doesn't allow pets in restaurants and grocery stores. Gross...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: petek

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                That's always been my first thought when people think dogs are so dirty and shouldn't be allowed in patio seating.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Rats, cock roaches, birds, squirrels.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                All their dander, hair, feathers and poop, so puleez!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Of course I avoid restaurants with roaches and rats as well as dogs or cats.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2. re: petek

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  do you not have friends who have dogs?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. I have never seen a dog in a grocery store or restaurant (Edit: except seeing eye dogs). And I hope I do not. And at a doctor's office?! Really?!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I do see many dogs at the farmers' market, and I think it would be better if they stayed home. And I do love dogs. I love them on the greenway, and walking the neighborhood and at the park and picking the kids up from school, but not at a restaurant.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          3 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: DebinIndiana

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I really, based on the responses here, think this is a regional issue.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yes, and funny, because of threads like this, we've taken our puppy to Lowes!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Not that we're making it a habit, hellz no!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              We are training him to be a therapy dog and the more exposure, the better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So, it was a quick, 5-minute see and sniff while DH picked something up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              We'll definitely do it again as he gets more composed. We just wanted to be sure that the first time, he had the whole potty training thing under control.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              No peeing on the lumber!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I hope that wanting to have a therapy dog was not a major consideration when you decided to get a puppy. Beyond basic obedience commands, therapy dogs don't need training, just socialization and some exposure to things like elevators and mobile or freestanding medical equipment. Beyond that, it's the individual dog's temperament that makes it a suitable therapy dog - or not. A confident dog is essential and while you can encourage this by exposing your pup to new people and surroundings, it won't turn an inherently timid one into the life of the party. Nor is it fair to the animal to push it into situations for which it isn't cut out. You might as well expect your dog to whinny. My greyhound therapy dog liked nothing better than to lean against people for endless petting. At the same time I had another greyhound who was very insecure and would have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                unhappy in new surroundings. The therapy hound was very calm around other dogs, unfazed by crutches and whirring machinery, and obeyed basic commands at home. He got a "veteran's preference" certification because away from home, with lots of people and dogs around, he was too interested in leaning on people to sit on command. The group administrator said that he was obviously a born therapy dog and gave him a social promotion. As months passed, we were all surprised to discover that he had a phobia of very shiny floors. He jammed on the brakes when faced with certain lobbies and ultimately started to hang back whenever I walked him toward the entrance to a new building. So in fairness to my dog, we withdrew from the program. Wide-ranging early exposure to new situations can minimize the risk of puppies developing phobias but if you get an older pup, or adult, you may have no idea what past experiences have made their mark on him.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2. Yes, beyond - I don't do fins, feathers or fur and am weary of having a dog investigate my freaking crotch in public. Real service animals would never, ever do that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The wee pooches that sit in purses? One sneezed in my drink at a bar when the "owner" hoisted it upon the bar top. "Poor baby has allergies" was the owner's comment. Ugh.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Slam me all the way to hell, but no - please for the LOG leave your poor pets at home and don't make a person with a disability get more shunned than they already are.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            6 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: JerryMe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Who the f*ck "shuns" people with disabilities?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Lots and lots of folks. I'm pretty sure that's why we needed the ADA.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Are you serious with this question?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Please keep in mind disabilities range from physical to neurological (with covert signs).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Many parents of children with Autism can testify to being shunned.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: globocity

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I've treated patients with disabilities for over 2 decades, so you're preaching to the clinical expert ;-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My apologies then. I agree that no one should shun those with disabilities. But it is rampant.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: globocity

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <Many parents of children with autism can testify to being shunned>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, that's too bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      As a lifelong relative of special needs people (autism being part of the pathology) I've noticed that people are willing to bend over backwards to accommodate their needs. I don't think it's really fair to automatically assume people are going to 'shun' them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      A few people I know who are parents to autistic children/adults have built-in radar that detects even the slightest deviation in behavior from others who're around their children.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I was on the elevator recently with a family whose child appeared to be autistic…
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      They allowed the child to push every single button on the wall of the elevator so the rest of us stopped on every single one of the 15 floors….to get to the top floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      They were also going to the top so we all endured the behavior of the child who was allowed to kick his father, scream at the top of his lungs and basically run around all of us in the elevator. Nobody said a word but I can assure you the parents, if they had any sense at all, felt the tension. Did the parents feel they were being shunned? I have no idea…but people like that, who're unwilling to try and reign in that kind of behavior, seem clueless to those around them and would then blame someone who, inevitably, will speak up and call them on their enabling.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2. I'm always happy to see a house cat in a bodega. Well-behaved dogs in a place they're allowed works for me, too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dogs of all stripe sitting with their owners outside at tables like the have at Zuni on Market (San Francisco) have always put a smile on my face.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ill-behaved children, self-centered/loud-mouthed adults are issues much more irritating than well-behaved dogs in a venue that accepts them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Get a grip.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  3 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: steve h.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    You're my type of people when I bring my dog to eat outside.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The problem that most "haters" here don't get, is that we dog owners don't want you to bother US!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Is my dog the first dog you've ever seen? Have you never seen a dog in public? What is the big deal that I have a dog lying quietly at my feet, under the table? Can you just go on with your day without cooing over my dog and touching him??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Go away!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: monavano

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      so true. with a puppy in training, it's a daily battle to prevent people from diving face-first toward her screaming "kyoooooot!" and encouraging her to jump up on them. we are currently working on NOT jumping up, and believe me - you think it's cute now, when she weighs 25 pounds. you WON'T think it's cute when she's north of 60 - which she will be. soon. please don't greet, feed, pet, interact with or in any way bother my dog without asking me first. and no, asking doesn't guarantee i'm going to say yes. if we're in the middle of a training session, going somewhere, or simply not in the mood - i'll tell you no. people take an amazing amount of offense to that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: chartreauxx

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I hear you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        People think they're being nice and tolerant when they allow dogs to jump on them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My neighbor keeps saying "Oh, that's OK, I don't mind", but I do!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  2. I am on the I don't mind at all side. If they are clean and well behaved...that goes for dogs and humans both.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am far more disgusted with people bringing children to restaurants that are not meant to be "family friendly" and then they don't leave when the kids act up. I have never had a dog ruin my restaurant meal, but I have had several humans ruin them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: sedimental

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I've never seen a dog act up while dining outside.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I dined at a Bonefish Grill the other day and 2 women ( mom and daughter, I guess) brought in an infant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Baby cried for a few seconds, then quieted down while they gulped down their food, then became fussy again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      They packed up SO FAST, and apologized while the rest of their food got packed up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Every. Single. Person- in the vicinity supported them and told them to relax. We were all fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mom and Grandma deserved to eat!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It takes a village and the village has babies, and dogs at times!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: sedimental

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I've had more obnoxious adults ruin a meal than kids even.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. I have not yet read this thread. Unless the dog is a 'service' animal, I do not wish to see or dine with it near me either indoors or outdoors.( I do not wish to see it across the patio either. Leave your dog at home like any civilized person would do.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        71 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: John E.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          do you not have friends who have a dog?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <do you not have friends who have a dog?>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            They're my friends(not some random stranger) and I'm not paying them to have dinner there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: petek

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              how do you justify the theory that dogs of people you don't know are somehow more contaminated than the dogs of people you *do* know?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Dog-friendly restaurants advertise the fact -- it's not like it's a surprise.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                how do you justify the theory that dogs of people you don't know are somehow more contaminated than the dogs of people you *do* know? >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Umm, that's not what I was saying at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                You asked if I had friends with dogs. Yes I do. I dine with them at their home, not in a restaurant with strangers and their dogs. Big difference.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: petek


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  How is it that you can bear to be around your friends' flea-bitten, worm-ridden beasts, but not across an outdoor patio from the dog of someone you don't know?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Your friends' dogs are no more or less likely to be carrying something than the guy across the patio's dog.