96979 Sun Jan 05 11:03:52 -0800 2003 7 22 Quebec (including Montreal) 0 528327 ATTN: CARSWELL, call for expertise: Montreal Smoked Meat: Past and Present, Purveyors and Perverters These questions need some real on the ground knowledge of the Montreal food scene. Past: On the basis of no expertise whatsoever, I have always assumed that Montreal smoked meat originated in the mingling of Rumanian Jewish pastrami-makers with Quebecois traditions of curing, smoking and spicing meats. I assume Rumania because that is, I believe where pastrami originated. I say that because of the fact that it is one of the few delicatessen meats common to both the Eastern European and Ottoman tradition – in Turkish a slightly different cured meat is called bastirma. Rumania for centuries was a vassal state of the Ottoman Empire and would have been able to act as an intermediary for both culinary cultures. If Ben’s wants to claim they invented Montreal smoked meat in 1908, let them (as long as you don’t eat there). The more interesting question is what culinary traditions combined to create this product. Does anybody know? Past and Present: It should go without saying that by Montreal smoked meat, I mean the coriander seed and peppercorn studded, black surfaced product called old fashioned. I don’t think the red-pink covered meat that goes by the same name, w/o old fashioned, should exist. By the way what pervert invented that one? However I do suspect that what we now call old-fashioned is probably a far-cry from the original old-fashioned smoked meat of the early 20th century. How is smoked meat prepared? I assumed that it is brined, spiced in some pickling liquid, and then smoked. Anyone know the details of the process? What short-cuts have been introduced over the years? Any special reason why are there fewer and fewer independent producers, other than economies of scale? Purveyors and Perverters: As far as I know the main current producers of smoked meat in Montreal are Levitt’s, Lester’s, Schwartz’s Hebrew National, and I presume some kosher meat suppliers as well, but a few more details are provided below. I assume that Snowdon Del gets their meat from Levitt’s because the last time (5 months ago) I bought a whole brisket there, it was cryovac Levitt. In previous years they sold briskets w/o such labeling, wrapped in paper. Could Snowdon Del have run out of their own that day, relying for the moment on a back-up supply? Do they use own meat, in-house, and another for deli sales to go? These and other vital questions await definitive answers for our inquiring minds. I am particularly interested in learning about kosher producers because the Brookline kosher super market, the Butcherie, the best in Boston (don’t snicker New Yorkers, but it is the best we got) regularly imports poultry from Montreal and is willing to add smoked meat to the list, if it has the Canadian equivalent of a USDA seal. By the way the same goes for kosher merguez from Montreal. For the convenience of those who missed it, I add SteveW’s very useful comments from eGullet on these and other suppliers from his recent post on the Katz’s thread in the NY forum, as well as Porkpa’s wonderful memories of smoked meat on the Main, from the Montreal forum also on eGullet: Chenoy's smoked meat the last time I checked(around 2 years ago), was a straight commercial smoked meat product(wasn't too good, when I ordered there at the time). Chenoy's even tried opening a downtown location around 6-7 years ago, but it didn't last too long. Lester's, known for their delicatessen & having 'their' own smoked meat(they make the sandwich sized smoked meat packages, & sell it to the public). I don't know if I'm being feed misinformation or not, but I've been hearing rumblings in the last year or two, they don't actually make their own smoked meat. Could this be true? I thought they were one of the few commercial smoked meat makers, in addtion to being a delicatessen. Any one, clear this up for me? IMO, the best smoked meat restaurants here, are still the two standbys Snowdon Deli(clearly the best smoked meat), & followed slightly behind by Schwartz's. Although the general consensus in Montreal, is that Schwartz's is by far makes the best smoked meat. After Schwartz's, the restaurant located in the West Island called Smoked Meat Pete is often mentioned. I find Smoked Meat Pete fairly good, although I've heard their smoked meat has changed in the last 2 years(changed to slightly worse smoked meat). Almost as good as Schwartz's I find is Dunn's, located in downtown Montreal. After closing for a couple of years(they never closed Dunn's in Ottawa), they re-opened at another downtown location about 3 years ago. Upon re-opening, they changed their smoked meat recipe, for the better. The former manager of Schwartz's named Abie Haim, opened his Abie's Smoked Meat & Steak restaurant in the West Island around 4 years ago. Copying exactly the Schwartz's menu(absolutely no desserts served), Abie's also made their own smoked meat. Wasn't that impressed based upon several visits. Their smoked meat was too dry, & too lean. Abie's business partner, at Abie's Smoked Meat, left recently to start his own smoked meat restaurant in the Montreal West area. It opened around 5 months ago(can't remember the name of the restaurant), making their own smoked meat. I was there during the first week of opening, & was unimpressed with their smoked meat. The only other restaurant making their own smoked meat is The Main(just across from Schwartz's), that has been there for decades. I find The Main smoked meat, also too dry & too lean. BTW of those mentioned above, Dunns, Snowdon Deli & Smoked Meat Pete don't their own smoked meat(it's made for them by commercial smoked meat suppliers, according to their specs). Montreal smoked meat(as we know it) was started in 1908, at the Ben's restaurant. Ben's still exists, but it doesn't make their own smoked meat anymore. Their smoked meat is awful awful(also they give very very bad service)!!! Unfortunately too many customers of smoked meat, want lean Montreal smoked meat. Porkpa Your mention of Levitt's brings back incredible memories. Although it might be a commercial manufacturing venture now, I remember it as a restaurant on The Main(Boulevard St Laurent) just south of Mount Royal on the east side. At the time(probably 50 years ago), it was THE smoked meat experience in Montreal. I can remember looking forward to Saturday night dinner there. My mother and I would stand in line waiting for the Sabbath to be over and the restaurant to open. Then I would order my regular, a medium smoked meat sandwich(I wanted fat, but my mom wouldn't allow that) with double mustard, french fries and a black cherry soda. This routine lasted for years, until Levitt's decided to go into commercial manufacturing and shut down the restaurant. It comes as no surprise to me that Snowdon's meat is made by Levitt's because they always were the best. Sun Jan 05 11:03:52 -0800 2003 0 VivreManger 1 528341 Thanks for the interesting and informative post, VM. Your questions are all valid but I don't have the answers. Am at a loss to explain why even basic information about smoked meat is unavailable. Is it brined or dry-cured? What spices (other than the obvious coriander and pepper) are used? Are its roots Romanian or Lithuanian? Who knows? You'd think that locals would have learned something about such a celebrated delicacy, but, no, not that I've been able to find. And it's not like it's a jealously guarded secret recipe--as your post makes clear there are several producers. For my few ruminations on the subject, see: Re(3): Montreal Smoked meat - carswell 23:50:49 9/07/02 (1) Maybe someday one of us will finally learn the secret of smoked meat (images of a deathbed confession of some Schwartz's grunt...). If it's me, I'll be sure to post the info here. Fri Jan 10 11:20:21 -0800 2003 528327 0 carswell 2 528848 The weekend edition of the National Post for May 31 has 1 1/2 pp. on a comparison test of 6 Montreal smoked meats, including Schwarz and Lesters. It got me so fired up that we drove into town to buy some. Gorgeous stuff. Mon Jun 02 08:54:57 -0700 2003 528341 0 John Vandermeulen 3 530821 I am from Texas and this is the best I can figure it out: First start off with corn beef: Wet Style: Use this cure for a 10-12 pound brisket: 2 cups Kosher Salt 1 ½ cups Maple Syrup 4 teaspoons salt peter 1 teaspoon bicarbonate of soda 2 tablespoons cracked whole peppercorns 1 teaspoon crushed mustard seeds 2 teaspoons crumbled bay leaf 2 teaspoons crushed allspice berries 2 cloves minced garlic (optional) Preparation: You now have two options. Either place the meat and spices in a sealable plastic bag with just enough warm water to dissolve the cure (easiest), or place into a non-reactive (ie: glass or porcelain) pot large enough to accommodate the beef with water to cover. If using the bag method, squeeze out as much air as possible. With either method, place the whole kit and caboodle into the fridge and weight the meat down for the first two or three days. Cure the meat for a minimum of twelve days, turning every day. When ready to cook, rinse the beef thoroughly in cold water. Simmer (never boil) the corned beef for 3 1/2 to 4 hours in a mix of half water and half lager beer until tender. Skim the scum off the surface of the liquid. Before Smoking: (20% peppercorn 20% kosher salt, 10% Maple Syrup, 60% coriander seed, cloves, bay leaf, garlic rub --> with a tablespoon of saltpeter). Coat the Corn Beef, with the peppercorn-coriander crust. (Go to: Start of the smoking process) Dry Style(Pastrami): Use this cure for a 10-12 pound brisket The Rub: 2 cup kosher salt 2 tablespoon black peppercorns, cracked1 ½ cups Maple Syrup 3 tablespoon ground allspice 2 tablespoon dried thyme 2 tablespoon paprika 6 bay leaves, crumbled 1 fresh beef brisket (10 to 12 pounds), preferably point cut, trimmed of excess fat, patted dry Preparation: Mix salt and seasonings in small bowl Spear brisket about 30 times per side with meat fork or metal skewer. Rub each side evenly with salt mixture; place in 2-gallon-size zipper-lock bag, forcing out as much air as possible. Place in pan large enough to hold it (a jelly roll pan works well), cover with second, similar size pan, and weight with two bricks or heavy cans of similar weight. Refrigerate 5 to 7 days, turning once a day.(Go to: Start of the smoking process) Start of the smoking process:Then slow smoke it for 8 hours (with “Cherry/Apple/Maple/Pecan”), afterwards it should be in the steamer for three hours! ---------------------------------------------------- Try it both way and tell me which comes the closest. I like it from Quebec’s Farmer’s Market (I like it with a sweet maple taste) Just E-Mail me with the answer, is it dry / is it wet?? Where did I go wrong??? Tue Aug 31 10:52:09 -0700 2004 528848 0 Keese, Steven P. 1 528588 I am a big fan of Snowdon Del, It is by far the best and I have tried them all Tue Mar 11 07:36:13 -0800 2003 528327 0 Barbara Watson 1 530495 I remember when Schwartz's smoked meat was tasty, almost fell apart and was not very pink and included fat as aksed for. Dunn's was also quite acceptable. Bens...never. Now, most smoke meat folks create a very bland, super salty and pink, rubbery smoked meat. Lester's, I do believe, also retailed a bunch of slices for one sandwich in a sealed pouch that you boiled....yugh...worst smoked meat I ever encountered. Bought a small slab of smoked brisket from Costco and won't do that again: it was so salty and tough that I had to boil and drain it for over three hours to eat the results. Cut against the grain, it was suggested, to make it tender...hahahaha. It was produced by some generic commercial joint that offered no address, fone number etc. What a pity when one considers that Montreal was once the envy and center of those who created Smoked Meat. Now we seem to be getting just funny smoke and no delectable substance.....and the term "Old Fashioned" is a meaningless scam. When did Schwartz's sell their enterprise? antonio Thu Jul 15 21:41:10 -0700 2004 528327 0 antonio harpes 1 530751 This is Bill Berenholc. I am the owner of Lesters Deli in Montreal. Why not call me so we can straighten out some of the misinformation you posted on this site as it needs more skewing to realign the facts. First of all, there is currently 2 companies operating under the same name which is not apparent to the public, but only 1 of us are experienced with the sale of "hot smoked meat". More info in person if you wish @ 1-866-lesters Tue Aug 24 12:13:27 -0700 2004 528327 0 BILL 2 530822 Did I post in the wrong area??: http://www.chowhound.com/canada/boards/montreal/messages/6054.html Tue Aug 31 10:56:25 -0700 2004 530751 0 Keese, Steven P.