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Mar 6, 2014 07:28 AM

Quinoa For Passover 2014

This year the OU has accepted quinoa as being acceptable for Passover for Ashkenazim (non kitnyiot) with reliable Kosher for Passover supervision (it is often processed in the same warehouses as chometz grains). In addition, they are also accepting two other grain like substances, canihua and kiwichia with reliable KFP supervision. Unfortunately, Ancient Harvest quinoa will not be kosher for Passover this year like it was last year.

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  1. Translation: The OU has decided to call something acceptable as long as the business is willing to pay the OU for certification.

    Also, Ancient Harvest is still fine. Except the OU will only encourage you to buy an OU certified brand, not a brand certified by their competitor.


    2 Replies
    1. re: avitrek

      I contacted Ancient Harvest. They did not have a KFP production this year. The Star K appears to only be supervising Setton Farms and Natural Earth Products for retail use.

      On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 2:37 PM, Quinoa Corp <quinoacorp@quinoa.net> wrote:

      No, I'm sorry but we were not able to do the Passover-specific run of Quinoa this year.
      Kind Regards,

      Jennifer Schnorr
      Quinoa Corporation

      1. re: moonlightgraham

        Translation: The OU and Stark-K agree that quinoa is acceptable for Pesach, provided that that the product is certified as KFP.

    2. Available Star-k from Natural Earth Products, which appears to be a kosher packager of natural foods http://www.nepdistributors.com/

      I bought it this morning at Seasons. $7.99 for a 10 oz. package. For comparison, Fresh Direct sells a 14 oz. organic Arrowhead Mills with a year-round OK for 5.99

      1 Reply
      1. re: AdinaA

        The Pereg quinoa is selling for 5.99 in Shoprite on Long Island.

      2. What's the big deal with this current quinoa mishugass?
        All I hear is quinoa, quinoa, quinoa. I can't even pronounce it properly, let alone eat it. It seems this year it's more important than matzah and morror.
        Last night our Rav (in Toronto) had to give a special women's shiur to try and clear up the confusion on whether it's kitniyot or not. Apparently it's not this year, and it's therefore permissible for Ashkenazim, whereas last year it was kitniyot and assur for Ashkenazim.
        When and why did quinoa become so important?
        How did our Ashkenazi ancestors survive sans quinoa?

        15 Replies
        1. re: Doctormhl1

          They survived without chocolate and without potatoes. But Pesach isn't a fast, and it's not about self-deprivation. It's a chag. Quinoa makes it nicer. As does Isreali couscous from Pereg. Moadim l'simcha. Not to mention chocolate. I propose that at the end of Hallel we should thank Christopher Columbus for discovering chocolate - ;-)

          1. re: AdinaA

            Dear AdinaA: I have never tasted quinoa and strangely enough, I don't feel the least bit deprived. What exactly am I missing out on here? Please bring me out of my cave-man existence and into the year 5774. Thank you.
            (Now, chocolate, that's another story. By the way, rumor has it that Christopher Columbus was Jewish--- Sephardic, of course.))

            1. re: Doctormhl1

              Mrs. Columbus used to serve it on Pesach, with marinara sauce.

              You use it like rice, serve brisket and gravy on a bed of quinoa (keen-wah). Or like tabouli in a cold salad. I use it to lighten meatballs. Particularly useful for vegans, and for folks who don't like potatoes. It's also sort of a hot food trend at the moment, with chefs using it in all kinds of dishes.

              1. re: AdinaA

                Hi Adina; I don't wish to belabour the subject but one simple comment or two.
                You compare quinoa to rice. I have eaten rice for many years and find that it (1) has no distinctive taste and (2) it acts as a "filler".
                Why would I want to add quinoa to my diet if it also has no distinctive taste and only acts as a filler?
                Having survived for over 76 years on a quinoa-free diet, I think I will forgo the introduction of it now, especially on Pesach. Hag Kosher V'Sameach.

                1. re: Doctormhl1

                  It's a side dish, another option for Pesach. It's relatively high in protein, and some people want extra protein on Pesach, especially more healthy versions than more meat. Vegetarians, and especially vegans, have few sources of protein available to them over Pesach, if they are not Sefardim.

                  1. re: Doctormhl1

                    I like rice. Basmati especially. I also like the flavor of quinoa, you don't taste the amount you put in to lighten meatballs.
                    And putting breadcrumbs, or quinoa, in meatballs is not "filler" it's the only way to make light meatballs. Make them of solid meat and they are leaden.

                    1. re: Doctormhl1

                      What's the point, then, of trying any new food? I've survived without an awful lot of things in my life. Maybe my life will be better with the new choice, maybe not. Either way, it's not worth making such a tzimmes over. Which by the way, I don't like at all so I'll be enjoying a tzimmes-free diet this year and every year.

                    2. re: AdinaA

                      The chef where I go for Pesach serves it like fried rice on Chinese night. I don't love quinoa , but I really enjoy it prepared like fried rice. He also uses it with to make " sushi'

                      1. re: AdinaA

                        Great instead of rice in stuffed cabbage or peppers for Pesach

                    3. re: AdinaA

                      I wasn't able to find the Israeli couscous from Pereg. I only found a few other brands that were like the pesach "noodles." Do you know if it's sold in a bag or container?

                      And re quinoa. I'm not buying it. No one in my family likes it! They can eat potatoes or rice :)

                      1. re: cheesecake17

                        I also could not find the Pereg. I bought a different Israeli brand. And I see I had put away an unopened box of Ancient Harvest quinoa from last year.

                    4. re: Doctormhl1

                      You can survive on Pesach without lots of things - avocado, mango, chocolate, quinoa, coconut - all things many of our ancestors didn't have. But for many of us Chowhound Jews, cooking new and interesting foods is a big part of how we celebrate a chag, and so we get excited about new menu options for Pesach, where our options are already so limited. Plus quinoa fills a much needed gap in our Pesach diet, being a hearty grain-like side dish that isn't made of potatoes.

                      1. re: Doctormhl1

                        No one denies how much easier it is to find Kosher for Passover food than it once was. If people are happier because there are more food choices so be it. The fact there are some healthier Passover food choices such as quinoa, chia seed, and flax seed (http://kosherquest.org/magazine_flip/) available can be a a good thing.

                        1. re: moonlightgraham

                          As much as I like trying new recipes, and my wife scours looking for new ideas, when It comes to Pesach, I like to revert to the oldies but goodies. I tell my wife that for eight days, I dont want anything new, I just want the stuff I dont get all year that we always used to have.
                          Chicken and or Meat Lasagna, Savoury Farfel, Wine Spice Cake, and more

                      2. Hi. Folks. The old curmudgeon is back.
                        I found a list of products that are definitely NOT considered kitnyiot? They are:
                        Chia seeds,
                        Cotton seed,
                        Guar gum,
                        Locust bean gum,
                        I wonder how many Balaboostas who love to try new foods and recipes on Pesach to overcome boring and/or repetitive meals have incorporated some or all of the above foods in their meal-planning activities?
                        Note that the advantage of this list is that it presents no risk of Ashkenazim eating Kitnyiot on Pesach.

                        5 Replies
                        1. re: Doctormhl1

                          Don't know about all the things you listed; some aren't really things you can build a recipe or meal around (e.g. guar gum); some is used primarily to feed animals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottonseed), but here's an interesting recipe from the blog "Couldn't be Parve" from last Pesach:

                          1. re: Doctormhl1

                            There are additional food items that may not be considered kitnyiot, but can not be found with reliable KFP certification. One of the reasons that there was an issue with quinoa had to do with it being processed in the same area as chometz grains. This is the same reason that you won't find KFP amaranth, another grain like substance.

                            1. re: Doctormhl1

                              Cumin, which was actually listed as kitniot in the OU guide in the last millenium, makes Pesach ever so much more delicious. Excuse me while I go make some Moroccan lamb meatballs lightened with quinoa and spiced with cumin.

                              1. re: AdinaA

                                Sounds really good. I'm thinking of making a similar mixture, but then shaping them on flat skewers like kefta and grilling on the bbq, serving with skeweres of grilled onions, peppers, button mushrooms, baby potatoes opver a plate of spinach and assorted tossed greens.
                                Should be a great, easy to fix and serve chol hamoed supper. And as I am lifting restricted for now, it should work.

                              2. re: Doctormhl1

                                In Southern California cumin is considered kitniot. It wasn't when I first moved there but it somehow magically changed.

                              3. Hello, again. I'm back.
                                The amount of physical and mental energy expended by contemporary Jewish Chowhounds and Foodies in honor of week-long Pesach meal planning and preparation boggles my mildly cognitively-impaired mind.
                                How fortunate we are to be alive today rather than in the time of our ancestors who spent 40 years living in the Midbar after the Exodus and had only manna to eat day in and day out. What a drag that must have been!

                                53 Replies
                                1. re: Doctormhl1

                                  Considering that the mahn was supposed to have the taste of whatever the eater desired most, I can't see how that can be a drag.

                                  In all seriousness, though, this is a website devoted to all matters food-related and peopled by those who take food very seriously, maybe a bit too seriously sometimes. Not that your input isn't valued and welcome, but it seems often that your worldview doesn't really sync with the purpose of the site. Is it just that you like stirring the pot and getting conversations going? The above is meant with all due respect. It's just that I frequently don't get what it is you're hoping to get out of CH.

                                  1. re: rockycat

                                    Dear Rockycat:
                                    First I'll describe where I'm coming from.
                                    I'm only "tilting at windmills" so don't take me too seriously. I'm an old-fashioned Zaidie "fresser" with a big belly who enjoys traditional "heimishe" Jewish cooking.
                                    I have difficulty abiding those whom I perceive to be ostentatious and overly self-important. So I indulge myself in what I hope is harmless, humorous, teasing at their expense.
                                    Now with regard to the "mahn" as you spell it.
                                    I anticipated that someone would remark about the mahn's miraculous ability to assume the taste that the eater desired, so my remark was not directed specifically at the mahn's taste. As all Foodie's well realize, taste is not everything. "Presentation" also must be taken into account. Now how many variations in the presentation of the mahn could there be? A rough calculation of the number of meals eaten in the Midbar over 40 years comes to about 30,000 meals. How many different presentations could even the most dedicated Foodie think up?
                                    Finally, I also have difficulty figuring out where some other contributors to Chowhound are coming from.
                                    Take bagelman01, for instance. Read his post just abve yours. Is he for real? If he is, I suggest he henceforth sign his posts baguetteman rather than bagelman.
                                    Shabbat Sholom to all.

                                    1. re: Doctormhl1

                                      My desire for quinoa is simply that it keeps me from eating so much matza, which never fills me up no matter how much I eat. Like bread, which I avoid for the same reason.

                                      Quinoa is filling and healthier.

                                      1. re: SoCal Mother

                                        Plus my favorite no work instant dinner is salmon, quinoa and frozen veggies. Ok, I have to wait for the fish to cook, but I don't have to do anything. Faster than takeout.

                                      2. re: Doctormhl1

                                        Chowhound is a site that attracts people who are interested in food, mainly in the sense of being interested in the taste, flavor and preparation of excellent food. In that context, you puzzle me in the same way that I would be puzzled by someone who took the trouble to seek out and enter the Courtauld or the Frick, and then proceeded to buttonhole the other visitors to explain that he isn't particularly interested in art and has a special aversion to fine art.

                                        Bagelman is most certainly a real human being. I suspect that he seeks out truly excellent, really fresh bagels.

                                        1. re: AdinaA

                                          Touche, Adina, you make an excellent point.
                                          However as students of human nature we should realize that tastes and preferences vary greatly and you can learn much about individuals from their attitudes to subjects like food, style of dress, entertainment choices etc. etc. without actually actively directly indulging in others life-styles.
                                          I find Chowhounds interesting as a form of "people watching" which is something we all indulge in, don't we?
                                          And the fact that it's all anonymous makes it basically harmless. So please don't take offence.
                                          P.S. What are the Courtauld and the Frick?

                                            1. re: Doctormhl1

                                              I am a real live 60 year old in southern CT. I love to both cook and eat.
                                              In high school I worked in one of the classic New Haven Apizza parlors. I waited tables in the Catskills during college breaks (as did my father before me in the 1930s).
                                              My first job out of college was as the purchasing manager (trading flour and sugar futures, etc) for a very large wholesale kosher bakery here in CT, thus the moniker. Afterwards I was in both the kosher catering and deli/restaurant business. I have not been in the food business in 30 years. I am a private attorney. I represent and handle the needs of one family and do whatever pro bono work interests me.
                                              The present Mrs. B is a builder/designer who also loves to cook. We have a very large home (19 rooms in the main house) with multiple kitchens, which makes Pesach cooking/planning much easier than for most. Our home is our resort, we have the amenities and no need/desire to take off for a Pesach Hotel program, instead it's our joy to have the relatives move in for the entire holiday.
                                              Some members of CH have met and dined with me, others on this board know my 'real' name and are FB friends.
                                              In addition to some of the 'new fangled' things such as quinoa, I make the old fashioned heimish items you've posted about such as helzel and kishka. I like to cook from scratch. Mrs. B like to bake. I love my outdoor kitchen and pizza oven and smoker, as well.
                                              I don't care for most milchiges and except for the pizza oven and its produce, I could probably live on fleischiges and vegetables.
                                              BTW>>>I am 5th generation Jewish-American with one side Litvak and the other Bavarian German. I celebrate the cuisine of my ancestors as well as cuisines I've tried and adapted as I've traveled the world.

                                              And although I've never met Adina in person, but hope too in the not too distant future (I do know her other world name and contact info). The Frick Collection in NYC is my favorite art museum in the USA. I have visited it annually since I was a child. Mr Frick was one of the magnates of the US late 19th century Industrial revolution and his mansion on Fifth Avenue survives as a legacy of his public benevolence.
                                              The kosher CH boards shows that it is possible to both adhere to religous contraints on cooking while expanding our taste palettes to incorporate that whioch is permissible but was not known in the shtetl.

                                              1. re: bagelman01

                                                Thanks Bagelman.
                                                I hope HaShem continues to bless you and yours and you continue to enjoy the success and fruits (pun intended; you did not mention fruit in your diet) of of your years of hard work. There! I've done it again!
                                                It's beginning to register with me that though I'm mostly tweeking people with my silly comments, some of you just don't get it. I love our old shtetl tradition. I still get "farklempt" every time I watch "Fiddler on the Roof".
                                                From now on I will try to be more straightforward and less subtle in my comments.
                                                Gut Shabbos.

                                                1. re: bagelman01

                                                  I love this conversation. You and Adina are cracking me up. I thought the doc guy was being sarcastic about the Frick.
                                                  This is the first year that my whole family isn't moving in for the big P.
                                                  Here's my question.
                                                  Just curious(although it's not really about food per se)
                                                  Do your guests help clean up????!!!!
                                                  I had to put an end to my pesachfests due to only my sister helping. My husband is also an attorney . I am a reading teacher. We are overworked. We also have very challenging kids. We both did everything all week. I am now just having people for the first days. It's bittersweet though.

                                                  1. re: Paulfan1

                                                    I consider help in cleaning up a bonus but I entirely understand anyone who feels otherwise. One of my less favorite Seder guests actually became my all-time favorite guest after she volunteered to iron my napkins before the Seder. I was just going to go with wrinkly napkins myself.

                                                    A lot of times I just prefer to do things myself. I know which glasses can go in the dishwasher and which to wash by hand. I don't have to cringe each time someone slightly mishandles my mother's china (I don't have very much of hers, and now that both my parents are gone I feel very overprotective of her wedding china). I appreciate the offers and the impulse, but often it's just easier to do things myself.

                                                    1. re: Paulfan1

                                                      I was being sarcastic about the Frick, Paulfan1, but not about the Courtauld. I had never heard of it. I looked it up and found it is an art gallery in London, England.
                                                      Needless to say, I've never been to London and I'm not a big art fan. I usually find art galleries boring.

                                                      1. re: Paulfan1

                                                        Re:Pesach Guests helping to clean up>>>>>>>>>

                                                        As we have a houseful for the entire holiday, I'll explain how it works in our home.

                                                        Seders, Pesach costs so much that the cost of 'hired help' in the kitchen is negligible. It cost us less than $200. I find this very important for the Seders, as I both am chief cook and bottle waher and am leading the Seder. So we have a woman who comes plates the courses and brings trays to the side server in the dining room. Our daughters distribute to the guests. Our daughters clear each course from the dining table and bring the dirty to the kitchen, where the woman will start washing up dishes. She will rinse the silver and place it in large plastic tubs on the counter, and rinse the crystal and place it on the counter, as well. About 1:30 am after everyone has gone to sleep, I'll hand wash the sterling and crystal. I do not go to bed until everything is put away.

                                                        Breakfasts.......each mother is responsible for their own immediate family, or any over 12 able to serve themselves and clean up after themselves. The exception is if there is a Sunday Chol HaMoed, when I make a big fleishige breakfast (as my father and grandfather always did): Salami and eggs, pancake style. Matzo meal pancakes, matzo brei, assorted fresh fruits. The women get to sleep in (if they choose) and the men serve and clean, then take the kids to play outside or on an outing.

                                                        Lunches (yuntif), my daughters serve and clear, the aunts help wash up...time for a ladies gabfest with no men welcome in the kitchen

                                                        Lunches (Chol HaMoed)....mostly serve yourself (if old enough) and clean up after yourself

                                                        Dinners( all served at the holiday Table about 8 PM) the food is brought in on platters to the side server and also is in chafing dishes on the buffet. Parents assist the youngsters, adults serve themselves. The teens clear the dishes, glassware and silver to the kitchen and I tend to do the washing up with my brother in law's assistance.

                                                        Snacks during the week are self serve and clean. Snacks and non-meal time coffee/tea and soda are the only time disposables are used during Pesach, Unless the weather is so nice that not only am I cooking outside on the grill, but we are eating outdoors as well (doesn't happen most years).

                                                        Yes, I understand the constraints of work and hosting the entire clan, but Mrs. B and I both have our professional offices attached to our home and that makes it easier. I have my own practice and mostly represent one family's interests, so my schedule is easy to arrange to be mostly free around Pesach.

                                                        This year, I had surgery 9 days ago, so am in a recovery mode. With a separate Pesach kitchn, I was able to start the sooking and freezing early. This morning, I made 40 quarts of chicken soup. My nephew came over to help lift the big pots. The chicken has already been pulled and deboned, cut up into small pieces and frozen for use in soup, chicken salad, feeding the dogs and best of all chicken croquettes made with mashed potatoes and gribenes. Tomorrow I hope to make two vats of gantzeh tzimmes each with a brisket in it, then remove the fat Tuesday, slice and freeze in batches for two luncheons and to use the fruit and veg as sides for dinners.

                                                        Back to the guest cleaning question.................family guests under the age of 70 are expected to at least offer to help clean up (and if competent may have their help accepted). Non family guests make the offer, but it is usually refused, unless I ask one of the adults just to carry platters from the dining room into the kitchen and place them on the counter.

                                                        The only exception: Teenage boys up to 30 dating daughters and nieces are asked to take full garbage bags from the kitchen out to the cans in the garage, and to shlep the cans down to the street on Sunday night.

                                                        1. re: bagelman01

                                                          Good for you bagel. It's so nice to see an organized pesach where everyone pitches in.
                                                          We have a huge chag lunch by one family member. She has hired help to wash the dishes, but the family members usually clear their plates from the table. Even my 3yo will bring in her plate and cup. Only blemish in the day is ONE female family member who does not move. Doesn't even offer to help- serve a dish, pass a dish at the table, or bring in her dirty dish. In my opinion- it's rude and disrespectful to the hostess, who has prepared for weeks for one meal.

                                                          1. re: cheesecake17

                                                            I'll not make excuses for the family member you describe, but there may be valid reasons.

                                                            My brother's wife is the biggest clutz on earth. She trips over her own two left feet. She is top heavy and pitches forward. She drops and breaks everything. She has been instructed over the years NOT to clear anything from the table and to stay out of the kitchen.

                                                            Now that she is 70, she is exempt under the family rules and doesn't even offer to clear.

                                                            I think it's nice that you 3yo clears her plate and cup, BUT would not want that at a holiday meal in my home. Too many fragile items, too much going on in a busy kitchen. Too much danger. Even the kiddies are served with fine china, sterling and crystal (in appropriate sizes). I know it's odd, but back in the day it wasn't strange to buy place settings in one's sterling in both baby and child as well as adult sizes...) and I wouldn't want the 3 year old to either have an accident or be reminded of such every Pesach for years to come.

                                                            1. re: bagelman01

                                                              Being reminded isn't necessarily such a bad thing. We used to say that it wasn't really a seder until one of the kids broke a parfait glass. I tend to think that the problem was more that those glasses were never really meant for the freezer and that caused the breakage, but every year, like clockwork, one of us broke a glass. I'm sure that it wasn't fun for Aunt Frances, but she took it with ultimate grace, the way she lived her entire life. Memories of those seders are some of the fondest of my childhood and I'm happy for any reason to remember her and her events, even if it involves breaking things.

                                                              Oh, and she had hired help every year, too. The same lady each year, who knew what needed to happen when, which of the many refrigerators contained what, and allowed Aunt Frances to spend at least some of the night with her large, extended family.

                                                              1. re: rockycat

                                                                The seder is a time for family memories, many expressed in the food,
                                                                The charoset is made in a brass mortar and pestle bought by my great grandmother when she married in 1890.
                                                                The gantzeh Tzimmes I make was my grandmother's recipe. One of only three dishes anyone remembers her ever making. She mostly ate upstairs at her mpther's table, even as a married lady.
                                                                The attendees often use kiddush cups that were the property of the family member for which they were named.
                                                                In the bottom drawer of our breakfront I have a huge collection of all those terrible Bar Mitzvah and Wedding yarmulkes (in those vile colors) and we tend to hand the boys and men yarmulkes from their past to wear during the holiday. My cousin was terribly embarrased to wear the powder blue with silver brocade from 1963 last year.

                                                                I am the youngest grandchild, so I do have the family silver, but didn't receive china or crystal (breakables), not an issue.

                                                                Every year after the main course we take a 45 minute break. The table is cleared and all non-blood descendants of the B family are excused to rest ( a nice way to say banished-no in'laws allowed) in the living room or sun room. Then the annual Pesach B memorial poker game takes place, with chocolate covered coffee beans as chips. This is in honor of my late grandmother and her sisters and my great grandmother who had a daily card game for more than 60 years. They complained one year that they were missing cards on yuntif, and great-grandma ordered the sons-in law to take the kids for a walk and they played 5 hands.

                                                                One afternoon during Chol HaMoed, I make a Chinese style meal No rice, but fried quinoa will work this year and the ladies play Mah Jongg in the afternoon. Another family tradition adapted for the holiday.

                                                                BTW>>>the lady who comes to work the kitchen for the seders has been with us for years, and also knows where everything is (including the fridges and freezers in the garage) and where everything goes back. In fact when we built the new dining room and made changes to the Pesach kitchen her input was solicited. That's why there's a dishwasher in the pantry where the Pesach pots, pans and dishes get stored...smart lady, a $500 investment has saved countless hours of schlepping the last 5 years.

                                                                1. re: bagelman01

                                                                  Bagelman01: The Haggadah of your unique Family Seders has me overwhelmed. For once I am speechless.

                                                              2. re: bagelman01

                                                                I understand.
                                                                The kids are served on "fancy" plastic. The hostess usually supervises them bringing in their dish and then sends them to play.
                                                                This relative is not old, not klutzy, just lazy. Refuses to move or do anything. Also does not control or discipline her children, which is a shame for all the other children who are bullied by them. Last year, the host actually reprimanded the children, telling them they would not be allowed back if age appropriate behavior was not exhibited.

                                                                1. re: cheesecake17

                                                                  I find it hard to believe, but at 60 I am the senior male in the family when it comes to discipline. My brother is 8 years older, has no kids and is an instigator. My older BIL is a pulpit rabbi, so they cannot be with us on yuntif.

                                                                  My wife's BIL and sister are the same age as my nieces and nephews. SO>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                                  all family invited know that Pesach at the Bs can be a fun time, BUT Uncle B (me) will discipline and is not afraid to say something to those around the table.

                                                                  Pesach is my favorite holiday, and most of the family's as well. It is the one time of the year everyone shows up. We have full participation, you may be called upon when least expected, breaks are often taken for familiar family traditions, such as the poker game mentioned below, or when the youngsters are taught the slightly off color (not by today's standards) locker room and camp songs of my late father and grandfather.

                                                                  What could be better than during the fish course than to have then entire family break out in a choruses of the "Herring Salesman's" song? or Oo Tza Tza or even My Darling Clementine---the only three American English songs with herring in it.

                                                                  I would not tolerate one family member sitting and refusing to help (if others were) or not disciplining her children. We are NOT a black hat family, but European Traditional--strange when we're 5th to 7th generation Americans--and attendees at the seder have many different levels of religious observance, BUT decorum in the dining room is sacrosanct. So if a family member can't or won't discipline her children, Uncle B will.

                                                                  Basic rule of thumb, children behave for other people. The first time I told wife's nephew, to sit down, sit still and stop running his mouth, he was shocked, but he has behaved beautifully since then.

                                                                  Other hint for kids and non-religious adults, learned from my father. Guests get impatient waiting to eat. SO, in the B family, once the bracha on the carpas is made, relish dishes of celery, radishes, pickles, new kraut, and cucumbers are placed around the table and guests munch during gthe rest of the Seder leading to the meal.

                                                                  My mother or grandmother never served the kiddies on plastic for the holidays, and we don't either. The under 5 set uses the Bunnykins pattern that all of us got as baby gifts. Believe it or not we have service for 8 for Pesach. It's a nice tradition

                                                                  1. re: bagelman01

                                                                    My daughter hasn't joined us yet for a Seder- she was always sleeping for the night. This year, she's in school and is very excited about her Haggadah and pillowcase, and to show us her Seder plate. She'll come to the Seder, but I will give her dinner before we go. (MIL never has anything ready before the meal).

                                                                    Lunches are a bit easier, and that's the meal I was referring to. The hostess has a kitchen dining area that opens up to the main dining room, and usually sets the kitchen seats in pretty plastic place settings. Kids usually sit there, and hostess puts smaller kid friendly serving plates on that table. She also puts out some games so the kids can entertain themselves. (Last year, my kid skipped the matza pizza and sat herself on my lap for most of the meal, mainly because the larger table had the balsamic onions, pickles, and fried potatoes)

                                                                    1. re: cheesecake17

                                                                      For other holidays, kiddie table in the kitchen for lunch works, but our Pesach kitchen is strictly workspace, no eating area. I wouldn't be without one. 50 Years ago my mother had the laundry room off the garage converted to a Pesach kichen (moved the laundry to the bedroom level). and having grown up with that an no shlepping pots.pans, etc up and down from storage, I'd never go back.

                                                                      The youngest family member is now 8, so all are appropriate in the dining room.

                                                                      1. re: bagelman01

                                                                        If only I could have a pesach kitchen!!!! For now my setup works, so I can't complain.

                                                                        The hostess has a separate "kitchen" dining area that opens to the main dining room. It's not really part of the kitchen- it's off to the side. And it closes off completely from the kitchen area.

                                                                    2. re: bagelman01

                                                                      Wait. You have children's Pesach china with bunnies? Amazing. I have Pesach china for the children with Beatrice Potter's Peter Rabbit illustrations on it.

                                                                      1. re: AdinaA

                                                                        My mom just gave my daughter my peter rabbit china from when I was a toddler!

                                                                        1. re: AdinaA

                                                                          All the B s of my generation (post war Baby Boom and the following generation) received Royal Doulton Bunnkins china when we were born. Mom put away service for 8 Pesachdiche, which I now have. Also extra 2 handled cups and bowls. The particular bunny characters varied each year. They bring back great memories at the seder.
                                                                          Last year when I was setting out china, etc for the holidays, our cleaniing lady had brought her sister to help out and she was dusting the dining room. The sister saw the Bunnykins set out and exclaimed, how nice they're ready for Easter.

                                                                        2. re: bagelman01

                                                                          Tiny boiled new red potatoes as karpas. Old minhag. In Europe in Nisan, potatoes, they had (admittedly by this season they had very old ones, not the tasty new ones). Advantage is, put out a big bowl and let all who are hungry come and eat.

                                                                          I also have real food available in the afternoon. Not motzei, but real food, might be (home-ground quinoa flour) banana bread or cheeses, or fish or chicken.

                                                                          1. re: AdinaA

                                                                            As a young person preparing to host her first Pesach ever this year, it is really nice to read about all these established family traditions and the beautiful minhagim and routines all of you have developed over the years. Thanks for sharing your stories. :)

                                                                            1. re: AdinaA

                                                                              There's always real food in my house too. Before the first Seder, my husband likes to eat something filing before shul.

                                                                              1. re: AdinaA

                                                                                I get off easy the afternoon before the first seder. MIL lives across the driveway, so as all of the oput of town guest arrive, after stashing luggage, etc in our house they go across the driveway to MIL's for salmon loaf, tuna salad, eggsalad, cut veg, coffee, tea, crustless cheesecake. Then if we're lucky the younger crowd will hang out outside, maybe in the hot tub or basketball. The girls are busy with their hair and gossip.

                                                                                We do have nosh out in the sun room that afternoon, chips, fruit, soda. None of the heiomish brands. Yesterday I ran into a big supply of UTZ no salt added potato Chip KP on sale at Stop and Shop at regular UTZ sale prices $2/4 Big Bags, so I stocked up.

                                                                              2. re: bagelman01

                                                                                you ARE the MAN!!!!
                                                                                I fell humbled after reading about everything that you do!!! what fish do you serve during the fish course?
                                                                                i'm very into finding foods that can be made in advance......food in the pesach freezer is as valuable as money in the bank.

                                                                                1. re: Paulfan1

                                                                                  Bagelman needs to write a Jewish cooking/entertaining/meal planning/home DIY guidebook - a male, Jewish, more awesome Martha Stewart. I would buy it!

                                                                                  1. re: DevorahL

                                                                                    This is my first time in many years NOT hosting a seder. We have moved away from the city where our children grew up and no one is able to come here, so we are traveling to one child and we will attend a communal seder with him.

                                                                                    We were never as organized as the Bagelman family but we had our traditions and our regular guests had their annual tasks. (Always something like: you are in charge of acquiring checked romaine for 30 people, or paper goods, you buy it and I will reimburse.)

                                                                                    Relief at not having all the planning and work. Sad because I will miss my friends and my other son.

                                                                                    1. re: SoCal Mother

                                                                                      That sounds really hard, have to give up a tradition like that.

                                                                                      1. re: SoCal Mother

                                                                                        In 1952, My parents moved from NYC to New Haven, separating from very close families.
                                                                                        My mother quickly learned and taught us:

                                                                                        When you can't be where your family is, your friends become your family.

                                                                                        The neighbors I grew up with (on the block as a child) are like cousins, their surving parents are known to me as aunt and uncle, not Mr and Mrs. Six of them will be at the B second seder this year..................

                                                                                        As for you not hosting and traveling to where your child is:
                                                                                        When I turned 40 I announced that I was no longer traveling to MIL and Sister's homes (alternate years) for Pesach. My parents had retired to Florida and no longer hosting Pesach. Instead I would host the B Pesach gathering each year.My brother and wife host nothing (no kids and SIL has no confidence). The assorted relatives look forward to the annual gatherings. It's worked for us for 20+ years, but none of my girls have married yet, in the future, we might have to visit the kids.

                                                                                        And as my father'smother always said:
                                                                                        I'm married XX years and I never had to make Pesach, by the time I stopped going to my mother's I satrted going to my married son's home.

                                                                                        Don't dwell on the family members you will miss, enjoy the child you'll be with, and drink a 5th glass in the missing relatives' honor.

                                                                                        1. re: bagelman01

                                                                                          Thanks Adina and Bagelman. We are happy that our kids are making their way in the world and we expect to go back to family seders once they graduate and their schedules are not as difficult.

                                                                                    2. re: Paulfan1

                                                                                      I serve a hot (temperature, not spice) whitefish and pike gefilte fish that has been baked with fresh lemon and freshly cracked black pepper which is topped with a thin vegetable sauce (almost a soup) of minced sauteed onions and rainbow colored peppers. Then there is a cold platter of herring bites that have been marinated in sweet Pesach wine with thinly sliced white and red onions.
                                                                                      There is also whitefish baked in a seasoned matzo meal crust available as a main course for our three nieces that eat fish but not meat.

                                                                                      The second Seder gefilte fish is cold and is made from salmon. The herring platter also appears to prompt the family herring songs along with a bottle of Pesachidiche Vodka.....for the Eastern European side of the family.
                                                                                      For the kiddies a hot fish appetizer of fried cod bites in a seasoned matzo meal crust served with sweet potato fries in the same crust is a big hit

                                                                                      1. re: bagelman01

                                                                                        ok Bagelman(you should change your chometz name for pesach by the way....gebrucktman,matzahman,etc)
                                                                                        how do you do the salmon gefilte?? it sounds just divine!!!!
                                                                                        my friend used to make her own fefilte but sadly everyone in my crew (except my oldest daughter)preferred the take out variety or frozen!! (peasants, I tell ya)
                                                                                        and yes, I agree with devorah.....please start that book! ok??

                                                                                        1. re: Paulfan1

                                                                                          Don't have to change the name. First Mrs. B harted Matrzo and I had to bake matzo rolls and Bagels fresh throughout Pesach...............

                                                                                          Salmon Gefilte Fish
                                                                                          • 2.5 lbs. fresh salmon, ground
                                                                                          • 2 medium sized onions
                                                                                          • 6-8 cloves fresh garlic, optional
                                                                                          • 2 medium sized carrots
                                                                                          • 1 scallion
                                                                                          • Small bunch of fresh parsley (curley)
                                                                                          • 5 large eggs
                                                                                          • 1 tsp. pepper
                                                                                          • 1 T. salt
                                                                                          • 1/3 cup sugar

                                                                                          In a food processor using the sharp “S” blade, grind the onions, garlic, carrots, scallion and parsley. Add in the eggs, pepper, salt and sugar and continue until it is completely pureed.
                                                                                          Place the raw ground salmon in a large mixing bowl and add vegetable mixture. Beat it all together using an electric hand mixer for 10 minutes, until it turns lighter in color and thicker. Refrigerate for a few hours or overnight.
                                                                                          Boil up a large pot of water (6 quarts in an 8 qt pot), together with:
                                                                                          1 onion in the skin
                                                                                          1 carrot, chopped
                                                                                          1/4 cup sugar
                                                                                          2 tsp. salt
                                                                                          Bring the broth to a rapid boil. With wet hands, form small patties or balls out of the fish mixture and drop them into the rapidly boiling water one at a time. Cover the pot and reduce the flame to low. Allow the fish to simmer for 90 minutes. Remove to a flat, wide plastic container and refrigerate. Serve cold.

                                                                                          These are floaters, if your family likes sinkers add ½ matzo meal to the mix. Serve with horseradish or mayo
                                                                                          This recipe makes 8-10 adult appetizer portions.
                                                                                          Doubling works IF you have a 16 quart or bigger pot. Like Matzo balls, not enough water and space in the pot yields terrible results!

                                                                                          1. re: bagelman01

                                                                                            Matzoh bagels, whaaaaaaat? Tell me more.

                                                                                            1. re: CloggieGirl

                                                                                              Not hard to make.............

                                                                                              Matzo Bagels


                                                                                              • 1c water

                                                                                              • 1/2cup vegetable oil

                                                                                              • 1 T sugar

                                                                                              • 1 t salt

                                                                                              • 2 cups matzoh meal (use USA, The Israeli makes a heavy bagel)

                                                                                              • 4 beaten room temperature large eggs


                                                                                              Preheat oven to 375 F

                                                                                              Bring water, sugar, oil and salt to a boil, remove from heat (I sometimes cheat and use a quart size Pyrex measuring cup and microwave the waterand oil on high on high for 4 minutes, and then pour the boiling water into sugar and salt sitting in a mixing bowl).

                                                                                              Stir in matzoh meal (will lower temperature) then the beaten eggs, one quarter of the mixture at a time

                                                                                              Oil or veg spray a baking sheet

                                                                                              Wet hands and roll mixture into 8 or 9 balls

                                                                                              Place balls on oiled baking sheet, flatten slightly with the palm of your hand.

                                                                                              Poke index finger through center of each ball, through to baking sheet, actually clearing dough away from baking sheet at the bottom.

                                                                                              You can use an egg white wash on these before baking

                                                                                              Bake for 50 minutes,

                                                                                              Note these will have a rough and bumpy exterior and will not get the golden brown that regular dough achieves.

                                                                                              Cool and slice, fill as desired, enjoy

                                                                                              1. re: bagelman01

                                                                                                Thanks! I hadn't planned on using matzoh meal this year but I think I'll pick some up now.

                                                                                                1. re: bagelman01

                                                                                                  Those look very much like the ones I grew up on and still make occasionally. The family is more into the Passover rolls. I jazz those up by adding fresh herbs, garlic, and/or brushing with garlic oil.

                                                                                                  1. re: rockycat

                                                                                                    Make the rolls as well.

                                                                                                    What we do is just consider the rolls pareve and the bagels milchige. That way I'm free to sneak in shredded cheese or use a little milk in the egg wash

                                                                                                  2. re: bagelman01

                                                                                                    Do these last for more than a day? I make similar Passover rolls, but after a day, they turn into hockey pucks.

                                                                                                    1. re: tractarian

                                                                                                      Generally, matzo meal rolls and bagels aren't very good after one day. However, I have found that if you allow them to fully cool, then individually wrap in a paper towel and place in a sandwich sized Ziploc (not a cheap knock off) bag they will be acceptable on day two.
                                                                                                      We go through so many that we need to bake everyday

                                                                                                      1. re: bagelman01

                                                                                                        I bake them every day, also. The only time we don't have them is on Shabbos. Nothing like hot rolls in the morning when we sit down to eat after shul.

                                                                                                        1. re: tractarian

                                                                                                          I bake a batch Saturday night just before going to bed for Sunday Breakfasts........................

                                                                                                2. re: bagelman01

                                                                                                  Thanks for sharing that marvelous gefilte salmon!!! Can't wait to try it! Do u ever make standard gefilte? White and pike? Also do u grind up the salmon or u buy it pre ground ???? Thanks

                                                                                                  1. re: Paulfan1

                                                                                                    You are welcome.

                                                                                                    Yes I make regular whitefish and pike gefilte fish. We'll have that the first night.served hot.

                                                                                                    I grind the fish myself. Nowadays, (last 15 years I simply pulse it in a food processor, previously I did it by hand in a wooden bowl with a hochmesser <mezzaluna>). I don't live in an area where I would get KFP ground fish.

                                                                                  2. re: bagelman01

                                                                                    Bagelman...I must tell you that you are a pleasureable fun read! Thanks for sharing yourself.

                                                                                    1. re: smilingal

                                                                                      re Bagelman: I think he should start a food blog.....opinions?????
                                                                                      cmon Bagelman....in between shopping,schlepping, washing,peeling,chopping, grating,ETC , you must have some extra time for your devoted posse of readers!!! Bring it DUDE!!!!!!

                                                                                      1. re: Paulfan1

                                                                                        We should find a way to rename this thread. Anyone not interested in quinoa might have missed it.