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New to posting, but sure need the ChowHounds! Need stove help fast!!

Dearest ChowHounds, I need you. Soon. And a right up there, an apology from the start if I didn't post correctly/in the wrong department. If I did, please give me explicit directons (suitable for the Blonde that I am) on how to correct it.
Here's the poop: We're about to begin a HUGELY long overdue and extensive remodel on my hovel. I am not being modest on this-it's a strange mix of amazing and horrible, situated on primo $1 mil plus real estate in the Silicon Valley (it's just super spendy here).Outside looks like an abandoned meth lab; inside is spacious and getting there. Outside will be rectified!! When we're done, it should be rockin'. (Well, I'm hoping.)
I have five children, one roommate, one husband (sorry Sister Husbands!) and an extended family (it's not at all unusual for me to be cooking for 20+), and I work occasionally as a private chef and caterer. As the economy here picks up, I hope to amp up my business.
Sadly, a beloved relative died, leaving us a small legacy-not enough to go kooky, but enough to invest for the future, and fix up my creepy 70s kitchen. The house is 66 (mark of the beast ROTFLOL)years old.
The space allotted for the kitchen isn't vast, and wall space is at a premium. I'm trying to fit in a 36" integrated frig and a ditto freezer.
I need a stove. I'm specifically looking at a french range and am considering Molteni, Caumartin, Rorgue, and Officine Gullo. I would like performance to meet beauty. Ovens seem to be the sticking point in some that I've checked out. I need something larger, as I do big sheets of things, dehydrate fruit from our garden, make yoghurt etc. (obviously, i'm gonna need a second oven, right?)
I'm open to adding a wall oven, and in a dream scenario would like a two burner induction hob. The ability to clean under the burners is KEY-my old (and I know it's changed) Wolf is a nightmare, though the stove is solid; ditto Blue Star, Culinaire, and a host of others.
I've been able to touch/feel the Molteni and the Gullo(both amazing, but very different), and was hoping that someone, somewhere could give me feedback on any/all of the above(or something else I haven't considered).
One of the biggest problems I'm having is that many of the gorgeous and functional french ranges aren't UL listed. In and of itself, that's not a big deal, but it DOES affect my ability to get finals on my remodel, not to mention insurance issues. So my questions are as follows:
As avid cooks, what do you personally value in a kitchen (I'm pretty clear what I need/use/want, but perspective is awesome).
Any feedback on stoves you've actually cooked on that are wonderful would be bombe.
Things to watch out for? I've been researching and test-driving stoves for months, but I'm sure I've missed something.
Esthetics.I know beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but it needs to be stunning and well-made.the Molteni is, well, a bit clunky to my eye.
Stove depth: I can/pickle and so forth, and my pots for this are large. I need a greater front to back depth that a standard range, but commercial only stoves are ugly and don't always meet code for residential.
Guarantees/reliability/servicing is huge for my husband. So far so good on the brands i've mentioned, but would love input.
French top, aka coup de feu/french plaque. Would like it to NOT be token. Molteni, Rorgue and Caumartin seem to ave the real deal.
Please dearest Chowhounders-opine! You can even come over and cook on the stove I pick!

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  1. this is not really an answer but...
    pick the one you can get fixed. i have found out (the hard way) that your repair service is way, WAY more important than beauty.

    4 Replies
    1. re: rmarisco

      Dear Marisco, you are very wise!This was one of the very first questions I asked.There is a repair person available for three of the four (haven't heard back from Caumartin) ranges I'm considering. Officine Gullo even said they'd fly someone out within 48 hours if there ever was a problem! That range and all their products have a lifetime guarantee. The others do too I think, but I'm in the process of triple confirming that as I type.

      1. re: HadesHnds

        Are repair parts readily available, or will they have to be flown in too?

        1. re: texanfrench

          Some are really close by! The Molten I rep lives about 45 min. from me and is super stocked up on parts.It's my understanding that it's the ignites that wear out on all these stoves, and if they're anything like my ol' workhorse Wolf(they're made differently these days, for better or worse), that's the part that wears out.Each has an authorized repair person near me.

          1. re: HadesHnds

            Sounds good. The best advice I can give you is to go with whatever dealer has the best reputation in your area. We have been through a number of remodeling adventures, and we have gotten to the point where we choose the dealer first, and then the item. Function is a lot more important than style of handles in my humble opinion.

    2. I agree with Marisco. If you get something that can be repaired locally by a shop with a good reputation, you will be ahead of the game.

      1. While the comments here are on target for all kinds of equipment, if you're looking for information on performance, I suggest,no offense to chowhounds, you try the home forums on Garden Web. Appliances, kitchens, those forums may unearth users of the stoves you mention. I've done two kitchens and I realize my requirements were mundane next to yours. Good luck.

        3 Replies
        1. re: timbrel2

          Dear timbrel2 et. al, good advice, but although I've been on that wonderful site for over a year, and have learned a TON about a myriad of things, it seems like a) nobody has anything I'm seeking b) has cooked on it or c)posted about it afterwards.
          From some comments, it seems like one or two people actually bought the item, but after that, and across the brands, they were mysteriously silent. I don't think it was because the product was bad, but rather that on that site, people come to get advice, do their remodel/whatever, and then quit.
          Chowhounders are different, and that's why I just started to try for answers here. You guys are super serious dedicated long terms foodies!
          As for my kitchen requirements, I am fully aware that I am completely blessed to be able to pursue them, after years of a camp stove (almost!) existance. I can thank a dear and sorely missed relative who really enjoyed food and good company, and I hope to pay that love forward (as I have done on the camp stove LOL) to friends and family who despite the primitive equipment have traipsed into my kitchen hoping for whatever came out.
          Each brand has its pluses and minuses-I got to cook (and burn!:(() on a Molteni today-awesome stove, not so awesome cook-me--a learning curve toward better equipment). They all have guarantees of varying lengths, service (get this-Molteni send a CHEF( hopefully handsome <G>) out for a day to help you! Officine Gullo has a LIFETIME guarantee! Still waiting on Rorgue) I need foodie opinions. You can evenm come over and cook on my stuff!

          1. re: HadesHnds

            See your point about what you get from Garden Web. Boy I wish I lived near you! My last ovens are a Miele and a Miele speed oven. They are as complicated as my aged brain can handle yet I think back to my second home days with gardens, canning etc, and thoroughly enjoy your comments. Do let us know how it goes.

            1. re: timbrel2

              Dear timbrel2, I'm thinking about getting a Miele Master Chef 30" as my second oven, and would love the steam combi too. I'm pretty much shooting my spending wad (and then some!) on the main oven/range, but the DH is ok with one extra(not two) oven. I got to see one and its' cousins in action at a Miele store cooking demo the other day-impressive (yummy free food too!). Went back to get clarification on what the heck I saw, plus how to work all the buttons. Not nearly as as bad as I thought.
              I am most sincerely not trying to make it seem like I'm a millionaire(I'm not, and they don't post; most don't cook. I know. I cook for them and waitstaff for them.One seriously didn't even know how to work her vacumn.Oh the burden... If you are the exception, mea culpa.)
              I am truly trying to learn and share. There has to be somebody/ies out there who might have even seen one!
              Having said all of that, I got to actually cook on Molteni with a big coup de feu the other day! Very powerful, very compact-you can fit a ton into a small space with this true not wannabe french top. Burned the living bejesuz out of my brownies, but it was a new experience to me, and the owner isn't a baker.I'm really sure it wasn't the stove's fault-more like user error. Incredible and solid construction.
              I must say that the Google searches are misleading. Under no circumstnces is this a cheap stove, but for several of the models they offer, they are in line with the non-custom La Cornues and the high end Wolf and other stoves.They aren't all
              $100,000 dollars.
              Officine Gullo ditto-not cheap, and taxes and tarriffs add to the price, but about the price of a car. Funny how no one blinks about that but freaks out on a stove that will last a lifetime and retains its resale value. I suspect that if it was a man wanting it, the story might be different, but I have sons, so no man bashing! Shame on me!Thank you all for chiming in-stay tuned!

        2. Why aren't you considering Lacanche? How much space (width) have you allotted for the range?
          I'm a big fan of Lacanche. Stunning looking, available in many colors, well built and can be had with 2 ovens. Many professional French chefs use one. There is a dealership network in the USA and service is available about anywhere.
          The best built US range is a DCS, but I'd go with Lacanche.


          1 Reply
          1. re: Enigma3

            Dear Enigma, Lacanche was the range I first started looking at. Victoria and Gregg have been very very helpful and easy to work with. I looked at the actual range twice and it has many features to recommend it. Their owners love them. But the back to front depth is too small to accommodate the pots I use for sauces and canning, the french top isn't as robust and large as I'd like it to be, and the ovens are too small for what I'm cooking.
            The Molteni, Rorgue and Officine Gullo are significantly more sturdy, and yes, they cost more, though there is an overlap in price points.
            Gregg and Victoria are helping me out with the Caumartin (not to be confused with a similarly named Lacanche range)-it's a brand they used to carry here. There may be some issues with UL listings-I need that to meet my final codes.

            1. re: Enigma3

              Just Googled bonnet an hour ago-couldn't find anything. Any suggestions, and will it meet code/be UL listed? Great idea-thought Bonnet was making some sort of Molteni-like product...

              1. re: HadesHnds

                Bonnet is owned by Hobart. Little heard of but highly respected. Built like a tank.

                1. re: HadesHnds

                  I was unaware of Gullo until reading your post. Now THAT is a most impressive range! My oh my. That would be my first choice with Bonnet running a close second.

                  1. re: Enigma3

                    Dear Enigma, there are some significant differences in the construction of the two-both are gorgeous, but very different. Gullo is a well-constructed high end unit geared a little more for home use with a commercial underbelly, while the Bonnet is a commercial stove with a toned down (Maestro) line for home use, if that makes any sense. The Bonnet has every edge finished to reduce the possibility of bacterial contamination, and has a water bath feature under the burners and plancha to make cleanup a breeze. the Rorgue also has this, and the rep was making noises like Bonnet (or someone) stole that idea from them. The Bonnet actually comes in at a higher price than the Molteni, and maybe about the same as the Gullo. Getting quotes that compare apples to apples (size, features) is a bit challenging, as each has their own configurations. If I can figure out how to upload some pictures they sent me, i'll try to post. Hang on-maybe I can figure it out...

                      1. re: DuffyH

                        Dear Duffy, don't get to envious. The quote for the Bonnet St.Tropez in green was...$58k.Well worth it for a restaurant;not so much for my kitchen at 60 inches with no other frills.Gorgeous build quality and response though.

                        1. re: HadesHnds

                          $58K? Wow! That's what we spent in '05 for an entire kitchen gut & remodel. It just lost some of it's appeal.

              2. Get stainless steel counter tops with marine edge. All else is easily replaceable later.

                1 Reply
                1. re: law_doc89

                  You are super right about the marine edge.My neighbor just redid her kitchen, and this was the first thing she told me.Second thing was to remember to put a garbage disposal in the prep sink- seems the DH and kids stick stuff down there that they should'nt.Well said!

                2. heh as this will probably get cut, drive up into SF and knock on the spooky door at 635 Haight and ask if you can buy their old Wedgewood. Jim the landlord would never notice much or care. that loveable beast of an oven/range could handle anything you threw its way. god I miss it.

                  and maintenance was like the difference between a Model-T and a BMW - all we needed was needle-nose pliers.

                  3 Replies
                  1. re: hill food

                    Those old stoves rock and are getting really collectable.I found a bunch of web sites that restore them.

                    1. re: HadesHnds

                      they are frickin' workhorses and cleaned up are just as gorgeous as anything new.

                      there's a thread here about those breeds, gimme a second

                      here we go il Divo started it

                      1. re: hill food

                        Hill, REALLY enjoyed the link.Reading about all the joy those old stoves brought to their owners, and all the memories they invoked was great! There are a few websites that specialize in selling and repairing these beauties - always interesting to browse through them.

                  2. What did you decide upon? Bonnet? Gullo? We are building right now, and are fortunate enough to be looking at the Molteni, and the Bonnet, but looking for input.

                    7 Replies
                    1. re: hopeittastesgood

                      Dear hopeittastesgood (love your Chowhound handle, btw:) ) We still haven't ordered a stove, but we're down to two-the Gullo and a made to measure Rorgue (this is the stove Gordon Ramsey has). I LOVED the Bonnet, but I couldn't get it in the configuration I wanted (two burners and a coup) for a price I was willing to pay-it would have to have been totally custom, and the rep heavily advised against a coup of that size in a home. Not sure why-the Molteni guy had one and it seemed fine.I actually want four burners and a coup, but on most of the stoves, that moved me into the stratosphere price-wise, plus I'm now under size constraints. 50-ish inches is about all I can fit in my kitchen.
                      I loved the Molteni, but it's 5K more than the Rorgue.I used the two preconfigured models (the 120 and the 145) as my sort of base design when trying to get prices so that I was comparing apples to apples.
                      Another problem that I may have is getting the Rorgue (or the Bonnet, for that matter) past code. Molteni and Gullo are UL listed, and have kept their awesome power still within a range that's acceptable for home installation. The UL thing isn't a big deal in the city I live in-they're ok with european certifications-but it might be for someone in another town.The BTUs are what's causing me some concern on the Rorgue. The coup is extremely powerful, like the Bonnet's.
                      I can get the Gullo in the configuration I want, but then that moves me waaaay up in price. I may have to live with one of their preconfigured stoves. I'm hoping that from back to front on the burners that I can fit two large pots. Right now on my old open burner Wolf I have to place them diagonally from each other, and my stove was a bit bigger than the current ones depth-wise.
                      I was extremely fortunate that Fate intervened in terms of serendipitous travel. I was able to see both the Gullo and the Rorgue in person. We had taken a trip to Paris (my first time-we saved for years to go there)and I was able to visit the factory in St. Denis where the stoves are made.It was very small-more like a little warehouse. Each stove is truly custom built from the ground up. We actually climbed on the oven door to get up to see another stove already crated.Like the Molteni and the Bonnet, these things are built like tanks!! The Gullo is also very well built, though I'm not sure if I'd want to climb on the oven door.
                      I will say that you should definitely try to negotiate the price once you decide on what you want.There is more wiggle room there than you think.
                      I would love to hear more about your stove shopping adventures. Mine has taken me halfway around the world.Love how the Bonnet and Rorgue are incredibly easy to clean and have that water bath under the burners to catch spills.

                      1. re: HadesHnds

                        Thank you for the update. We're all over the place on this - we have the space for about anything we want, size-wise, so that is not the concern. At this point - it's a Jade Waldorf Island suite, or the Bonnet suite. Both are custom, and both are great, but the Bonnet has undeniable advantages in custom fit and finish. The Jade will be in the Bistro line, not the Titan, as that is simply too robust, and too commercial. The Jade is UL listed, (as is the Bonnet) but I don't need the Titan's 35k btu burners, in fact, I probably can live without the 30k btu burners on the Bistro line. The current configuration for the island is 4 open burners, a double plancha (in steel, not chrome)a built-in sous vide chamber, and a single induction hob. We passed on the french top as it takes too long to heat, and to cool - especially with 5 younger kids running around the house. The biggest issue is the hood - we know we'll be needing to bring in make-up air, but I want short-cycle - brought in thru the hood, not in the ceiling outside the hood, and thus you need to condition the air - heat it, or cool it. If we go away from a gas oven in the island and use an electric oven - it reduces the amount of MUA we MUST have.

                        I hadn't ever seen a Rorgue, but I've been on the site since you posted, and it looks pretty nice. I really, really like the open burners over the water trough, and the plancha over a trough...if I had my way - we'd not only use tile in the kitchen, we'd have a floor drain! I like a very clean kitchen, so making it easy to clean is very attractive.

                        We had looked at being the pilot for the Electrolux Grand Cuisine line, but I think we need to forget that plan.

                        It's an ordeal to get the range/island suite all picked, and designed - if you have any advice - send it please. I don't need to reinvent the wheel. Thanks again.

                        1. re: hopeittastesgood

                          Dear hopeittastesgood, Wow! Wish I had that kind of room- and budget! I had considered an island application at first, but then we found an amazing deal online at Kitchentrader, a website that sells "recycled luxury". The proceeds go to charity (no, I am in no way affiliated with these folk). I was able to purchase a gorgeous William Ohs kitchen for 85K less than its' cost-paid 15K for an enormous hand finished island, the granite for it plus granite on the side counters, a few other awesome cabinets,PLUS a stunning huge Francois and Co. limestone hood. Because the hood is wall mounted, that meant I had to select a wall placed stove instead of an island.
                          I also wanted a colored stove rather than all stainless. I'm going for a classic/vintage look, and I wanted it to look more like a French stove and less like an industrial restaurant model.
                          Does the Jade come in colors? I didn't have much luck searching that, but then again, with the remodel, my internet connections have been super sketchy I'm actually typing this at the wheel repair shop-nail in my tire from our remodel, ugg-but at least I now have a connection lol! I'd like to know more about the Jade. I know they've been sold a couple of times, and the reviews are all over the place because of that.
                          For me, the coup was the most critical part.I was a bit nervous at first about selecting a two burner plus coup combo (in a dream world I'd have four burners and a coup, but space and budget are putting a crimp on that. The Gullo is available in that combo within my budget), but taking the cue from other Gardenweb and Chowhounders, I stopped and took a good look at what I was cooking and when. The coup only takes about 20min. to heat up. I can turn it on while prepping and it will be ready on those nights when I need lots of burners, and I can fit like 10 pots on it in a small space. I discovered that most of the time I only use two burner. That was kind of a surprise to me! Like you, I'm concerned about hot stove edges (I also have five children:) ) but every stove I've looked at has that problem anyway, including my old Wolf. My kids don't touch the stove anyway so until I have grandchildren, I'm probably ok. Definitely something to think about though.
                          Just curious-why was the pilot program for Electrolux off your list? They own Molteni, though they are two different divisions. The Bonnet also has that water bath thing under the burners.

                          1. re: HadesHnds

                            The Grand Cuisine line from Electrolux looks really nice, and the key to it is the domestication of the commercial lines - the Air-O-Steam combi-oven, and their blast chiller. Both are top-notch machines. They are the key to cook-chill process. Those pieces in commercial trim, you would never put in your home. But Grand Cuisine seems to domesticate them well, as I saw them physically at KBIS '14. The issue is that the combi-oven (the heart of the gear) only comes in 3-phase electric power. The commercial line offers the combi in 3-phase, 440v, 3-phase 220v, and gas, 120v. Why Electrolux would opt for 3-phase 440v for America is beyond me. Stupid. Putting 3-phase power to the house would cost over 60k alone, so no mater if they gave me the units, it's ridiculous to consider. I had been working with Electrolux on how to solve this issue, using a digital phase converter, but that has been going on for 3+ months now, and at some point - you ask yourself - "Do I really want to have a 1st run product in my home?" I don't want to own a car in it's 1st model year, so why a oven? The rest of the grand cuisine pieces aren't that interesting...induction top, gas hobs, induction wok hob, plancha-something, and a mixer. The in-counter top chamber vac is nice, but frankly, not crucial. The key was the combi-oven. They are priced high, and I don't have a lot of confidence they will figure this out for the American market. The individual I was working with was a gem, I really liked them, but it's a large company and there are a lot of hurdles. I can replace the combi-oven with the Miele combi-oven, and Irinox makes a great blast chiller (they are the top in commercial blast chillers as well), and they also make an in-counter chamber vac. So we'll just do that.

                            The last hurdle is the range. I really, really like the Bonnet, and the Jade, and I'm intrigued by the Rorgue. I didn't bother with Molteni as I just couldn't find enough feedback on it. Our goal right now is the "right sizing" of the thing - making sure we don't buy more range than we need. We're looking at 4 gas hobs, a plancha, and a single induction hob, and a electric finishing oven below the gas hobs. We'd sink a sous vide chamber into the top, so we can just have all cooking go on in 1 location, other than the single miele wall combi oven. The induction hob is really for very controlled cooking, and the 4 gas hobs are all that we need, along with the plancha/griddle (don't call it a griddle!)

                            Good problems to have, but the kitchen and time spent in it is our passion, it's what we share, and where our family gathers. We will live next door (literally) to family, so we have 9 kids, teen, and pre-teen all eating there, and grandparents and such. We don't do other extravagances - so this is 'IT' for us. We just want to get the kitchen equipment selected, and then really work on utility in design, to reduce unneeded movement in the kitchen. Process engineering I guess.

                            I'll post some pics of the Jade Waldorf suite that I found, it's pretty industrial, but it's a workhorse. Easier to clean than a La Cornue, and cheaper than the Chateau 120 range.

                            1. re: hopeittastesgood

                              Dear hopeittastesgood, thanks so much for all the additional info.My husband has a degree in electrical, and he was very intrigued by what you had posted regarding the 3-phase thing. He agrees with you that it's crazy that Electrolux set this up the way they did.
                              In terms of Molteni (and for that matter, Caumartin, Bonnet and Rorgue), all can build you a suite that incorporates all the elements you want. I suspect they can wire in the brands you'd like as well.(I'm sure you already knew this). They offer design as a free service as well.
                              I know several of them have added a Miele in, though at least on the Molteni and Rorgue, the gas ovens are physically built by the company itself, not Miele. The Molteni rep makes pizza on the bottom of his gas oven, directly on the floor of it, as it gets nice and toasty and acts like a pizza stone.
                              The center of the coup on all the stoves mentioned can be removed and a wok ring placed on it for those times when you want to give that a go.
                              One of the concerns you'll have is the correct placement of the induction hob. With stoves as powerful as the ones you're contemplating, keeping the wiring away from heat is an issue. It CAN be done (Gordon Ramsey has a Rorgue with every bell and whistle, but the induction hob is far away from his burners.)This is also the reason you won't find lights inside the ovens, or on the Rorgue (and maybe the others)no convection fan. Rorgue uses a natural convection system to move the air around.Again, you probably know this, but since it was so hard for me to find all this info out (you had rightly mentioned that finding feedback on the Molteni was difficult)I thought I'd throw it out there for others.
                              Speaking of the Molteni, you should at least take a cursory look at the units. They are built every bit as well as the Bonnet and Rorgue, though they lack that water bath thing. They're a bit prettier though. Oddly, many have both a Molteni and a Rorgue (or Bonnet on site. The Molteni is more often used "front of the house"-it's better looking, and the Rorgue in the back. Biggest problem with the Molteni from what I've read is the oven hinges wearing out, though that's in a commercial setting where the doors are opened and shut a million times a day. It supposedly isn't a big deal repair either, plus Molteni sends a chef out to your house to help you with any learning curve on their appliance.Contact Michael Poulos in San Francisco for Molteni info, and tell him Laura from California sent you. Still having trouble with my kitchen layout-arrrrgggg!!!!!!Will live vicariously through you and your amazing-sounding kitchen. Please keep us updated!

                          2. re: hopeittastesgood

                            Hi, please post photos if your installation!

                            1. re: kaleokahu

                              Dear kaleokahu, ok here goes-hope I can figure it out. This is what it will look like, minus the CornuFe, the chandelier (I'm putting in something different but equally nice), and the chairs-again, something different. We'll also be adding another island and another run of cabinets off to the left in the same cream color. Let's hope I've attached the right link!! http://kitchentrader.com/kitchen/58/w...
                              Let me know what you guys think-need a little hand-holding right now...

                      2. Help! I need some hand holding! Not even sure if my post will show up in the right order. I'm about to pull the trigger on the Rorgue stove. There is absolutely no doubt that it is a well-built powerful, easy to clean tank.The company will add some brass trim and a layoff bar to " frenchie" it up (it's a rather plain beast).I'm having it done in a sort of British Racing green with brass-green and gold, always a classic.It wil never be as pretty as a La Cornue, but it will cook much better. So here's the parts where I'm freaking out:
                        I could never get a straight answer from the city on whether it meets their code/s, nor could I find the codes on line. I did talk to them about it, and they didn't seeem concerned, but then they mentioned a vague murmer about maximun btu's, and this unit definitely exceeds that.I sent my architect the specs and he was fine with it, and said he " was glad I had talked to the city". Maybe they really don't care so long as it is properly installed and ventilated.
                        Then there's the number of burners-two, which plus the coup de feu is a pretty classic and standard configuration. Molteni, Rorgue, Gullo and Bonnet all offer some variation thereof.Will I miss more burners? I didn't think so-took a long time to observe my cooking habits and most of the time I either use tons of burners (hence the coup) or just one or two. Naturally, last night,AFTER we had decided, was the night I used three, then four.Am I have pre wedding jitters? LOL Could never find a living soul that's ever used a "real' coup. Will it make my house too hot? Help me walk down the aisle with something!!I swear, I've looked at every stove on the market!

                        18 Replies
                        1. re: HadesHnds

                          We are having the same discussion right now. We've just finished the dishes, put out the trash, and cleaned the counters, and the issue is - we just had all 4 burners and our griddle on (using it as a simmer plate), and we were 1 burner short. We're a large family (by today's standards) - not the "Duggars", but we have 5 kids, (and always dinner guests) and all are home, and we eat together 3-4x per week. On those nights - everything is on. The choice for us is 4 burners, 1 induction zone, and a plancha, or 4 burners, 1 induction zone, and a coup? I can see clearly the day when 4 burners will be too many, other than family get-togethers & holidays. I don't know how many you're cooking for, or how many nights, but unless you're feeding a gang - 2 burners, and a real coup should cover it. I don't know if Rorgue offers it, but you might want to ask about a induction zone?

                          As far as the choices for you - 2 burners, and the coup is a solid bet - if you want to "hedge" - ask for an induction zone - they don't produce any exhaust - they don't stay hot, and they are so precise. You don't even need to have the hood over the induction zone really. I know Rorgue offers induction.

                          The heat is going to come from the gas oven, and the coup - if you have decent ventilation - and some temperate climate - I don't see it being an issue - unless you come into the kitchen in the morning and turn the coup on, and leave it on all day. Professional kitchens are hot because they have hot tops, french tops (coups), and ovens rolling all day. The line gets hot, but it also cools quickly. Heat retention in the kitchen is the one thing I'm NOT worried about.

                          Are you going with the modern-looking Rorgue? It's pretty cool. Keep me posted, we're making a trip to see the Bonnet this month.

                          1. re: hopeittastesgood

                            Dear Hopeittastesgood, no, pretty as the ultra modern Rorgue is, I'm going with the classic stove a la the Bonnet picture in a post above-it fits better with the look of my kitchen (the modern one IS gorgeous though, isn't it?!). In fact, if you chopped the stove pic I posted in half and put a darker green in its' place, there is my stove! I wish I had room for a bigger range (and the money to pay for it!) but 48"-50" inches is all that I can fit in after snagging that amazing kitchen from Green Demolitions/Kitchen Trader online. The island that came with it is a whopping 9' 4", and my kitchen is long and narrow. We're at the place in the remodel(this is a whole house deal, storm is coming in, and we have no roof to speak of) where you want to throw in the towel, sell the house as is and bail. I know it will get better.
                            I would have absolutely loved four burners and a coup-that was my preference, but hubby is balking at even buying the smaller stove, despite my circumstances being very similar to yours (five children, constant cooking, lots of guests, a passion for food etc.). I thought maybe I'd buy a portable induction burner as a mini crutch-just in case. Rorgue does make induction burners to be included, as you rightly noted, but they don't recommend placing them as close as they'd have to on a standard stove-it mucks up the electronics. It's also why they don't have lights in the ovens and auto lighting burners-those fail not too long into it from the heat.
                            I'd love for you to expound on the hood thing-I know I'll need adequate ventilation, but I'm at sea on the whole deal. The kitchen we bought came with a lovely Francois and Co. limestone hood-80", but we need to put the "guts' into it. Officine Gullo had recommended ??1100?? somethings, and their stove was similar in btu's. Any knowledge about the hood part and what to get and where would be incredibly appreciated-my contractors are building that area right now.Thank you so much for letting me know I'm not alone in the offbeat stove wilderness! I'll be anxiously awaiting your comments on the lovely Bonnet...

                            1. re: HadesHnds

                              What they are probably recc'ing is and 1100 CFM exhaust fan. That should cover what you're getting. You should be able to have the Rorgue people tell you with certainty how many BTU's you are buring, and what the exhaust requirements are. You need to make sure your hood is over the cooking area by 3-5 inches on each side - the overhang is IMPORTANT. How far do you have to go to exit the exhaust to the outside? That's important to know as well - there is some math to it, and I can send you in the right direction, but I can't do the math on it myself. As for make-up air (MUA) if your house is very "tight" i.e. new construction, all new foam insulation, new, modern window seals, door gaskets - then make-up air can be useful and needed by code in some places. In an older home - not a worry, but when you have all 1100 cfm pulling - you will want to open/crack a window, or you can get negative pressure on a fireplace, or water heater. Make sure you crack the window when you have the fireplace on. No fooling. The hood should have a variable speed motor - as you don't need all 1100 CFM on all the time. that will reduce the "noise" as well, so you can talk, and be a normal household (as if, with 5 kids...)

                              The coup is large on that stove - so it's like 3 burners, and as such - once you learn how to use it, and are sequencing things in time order in your head - you will have enough burner space I am betting. I just commit to using the oven more for slow braises, and even simmering. We also do a lot of sous vide, which greatly reduces the need for stovetop time pressure.

                              I'd definitely go with the portable induction hob as "extra", I have one now and we make use of it when needed.

                              Good luck!

                              BTW - we're at the same stage of misery with our house - I would welcome a fierce fire from a horrific lighting strike right about now...horrible, just horrible. Don't feel bad - we're 13 months behind and 4x+ over budget due to unforseen mold issues that we have to recourse with the sellers on...could it be worse? Nope, but this is only "stuff", not health or family stuff...so we'll cope.

                              Where are you getting the Rorgue from if you don't mind telling?

                              Good luck!

                              1. re: hopeittastesgood

                                Thank you so much for the information-I'm positive I'll have lots more questions<G>.
                                One of the problems I'm having is that I don't know exactly how deep the hood is, nor how deep the stove will be.How can this be?, you may ask.
                                When the kitchen arrived, it was all wrapped up in shipping blankets. The hood is enormous and weighs a ton. The movers loaded it deep into the bowels of one of those POD storage thingies, and that's the last I've seen of it.
                                As it stands now, the stove is a foot deeper than my 24" cabinets, but Matthieu, my rep from Rorgue, is checking with his engineers to see if he can shrink that down a bit.
                                I'm getting the Rorgue from its little factory in San Denis, a small town just outside of Paris.There is, to the best of my knowledge, only one rep for all of North America (and maybe just one rep period-it's a small family-type company). His name is Matthieu, and if you were interested in learning more, I'd be happy to provide his contact information. Rorgue only makes one or two "stock" stoves-the pretty ones you were looking at, and even then they're really sort of custom, which is why, unlike all the other vendors, there's not an upcharge for a design change.
                                I have to say, on a side note, that with some of the stove companies, that really bugged me, since they're all standard sized components that they pop in, and each stove is made to order anyway.For example, if I had ordered, reading from left to right, a stove with two burners, then the coup, then two burners, it would have cost me at least 5K more than had I ordered four burners, then the coup. Same stove, same size.
                                Shipping costs varied wildly too. Rorgue wanted a $1000.00 euros, Gullo, shipping from a similar distance, wanted $3500 USD-that's what?-a $1500.00ish difference!
                                UL listing is another super variable. Rorgue will UL list a stove for a person, but because it's custom, each one gets its' own UL listing.To get one costs about $10K. Fortunately for me, my city will accept the EU certifications, which are much more stringent.
                                Truthfully, the UL thing is kind of a racket-there are several different and more rigorous certifications, even here in the US.I guess it just depends on the city and your insurance company.
                                I'm still terrified that I'll get the stove in and then there will be some "issue" with all that. Even UL won't preclude this-it's all based on the power of the stove, which is why I'm guessing the Jade has toned-down burners. Their power equals my old Wolf at 18,000 btus.
                                I'm super envious of your sous vide. I'll be buying a small commercial stand alone unit.Is it hard to leartn how to use it?

                                1. re: HadesHnds

                                  Quick reality check: when you're spending double the median US household income on a stove, is a $1,500 shipping differential really the deal-breaker?

                                  1. re: ferret

                                    Dear Ferret, 1) Yes, every penny counts, at least for me. I waited a lifetime to have a new stove.Everything I've ever owned has been used.
                                    2) Hopefully the median household income isn't 14K per year (it's $51,939). My stove, which is small, will be about the price of a midpoint car.Nobody gets criticized for buying one of those, and they don't last nearly as long.
                                    The point is that this variable(shipping) shouldn't swing so widely from vendor to vendor, especially when the item is coming from generally the same area and via the same method. It makes you wonder how much is cost, and how much is gouging.Just MHO

                                    1. re: HadesHnds

                                      Don't let 'em get to you! Your house - your money - your choice - your stove!

                                      People don't hesitate to drop 80-100k on a car.

                                      What's for dinner - that's what I want to know!?

                                      Post pics!

                                  2. re: HadesHnds

                                    St Remy Kitchen Works is also a Rorgue rep - along with Maestro by Bonnet. The individual there is very good as well.

                                    On the UL listing, I'm not sure it's important? Does it affect your home insurance? BTW - the Jade burners are set by the level of the gear - the Bistro line burns at 30k btu, the Titan line burns at 35k btu - in my view - both are potentially too hot for home use, unless you really know what you are doing. 23k - on the Bonnet and the Rorgue are plenty, unless you like having a expensive stove, and ordering take-out. Things just burn too fast when you get to that level of heat. Those levels are for line cooks/commercial cooking - and the line cooks never leave their station to change a diaper, or such - they stand over the pan and watch it.

                                    Sous Vide is outstanding cooking technique, and with 5 kids - it can make your life easier - for instance - you pre-sear some steaks - vac pack them, put them in the water bath at the temp you want, and you can let them go - take them out, and re-sear when each kid comes home from whatever activity. They don't over-cook, your kitchen doesn't get hot, and you have great flexibility - you can do the prep on a Sunday, and then cook the food the following week - because it's vac sealed. The more we use SV - the more we are impressed with it. There are a lot of water bath circulators starting to come on the market now - which will drop the price of the units. I have a polyscience, and a sv supreme - I like both, and neither one was terribly expensive. It's another strong technique to use, but not the only one. With 5 kids - think of meals in terms of what you can get done early, like a restaurant does getting stuff ready for service/pick-up. (Ex. par cooking risotto and finishing it for service)

                                    Word to the wise - unpack the hood, BEFORE you finalize your order on the range - make sure you have something that fits. A bad hood will make the VERY expensive gas range a waste. You have a lot of btu's coming out of that unit - don't get it wrong or you WILL be spending to fix it later. From my viewpoint - the ability to vent the kitchen is a singular driving factor in what we can conceive of considering. Just a thought to consider!

                                    Good luck, and post pics of your range!

                                    1. re: hopeittastesgood

                                      Dear Hope, you wrote"23k - on the Bonnet and the Rorgue are plenty, unless you like having a expensive stove, and ordering take-out. Things just burn too fast when you get to that level of heat. "
                                      I couldn't agree with you more, and that seems to be the problem-there are either residential (wimpy) or commercial (waaay too hot for a mom that is multi-tasking) stoves. And most all the stoves are boring or ugly or hard to clean (Blue Star comes to mind on the cleaning part-certainly a powerful enough stove, but the warnings from the rep about how I had to move the wires and to make sure they didn't touch, and all the tin-ny pull-out drawers under the burners definitely gave me the impression that this stove was going to be trouble to clean, no matter what the PR said.)
                                      There are only a tiny handful that straddle the line, and almost all are pretty spendy. Even the Molteni coup was super powerful. When I went and cooked on the rep's coup, I had my little pot of rice on the absolute edge of the stove and it still cooked really, really fast.(didn't burn though...!)
                                      Right now I'm reading Marco Pierre White's "Devil in the Kitchen" and he is told "Don't be afraid of the stove". Right now, I'm kinda afraid <G>
                                      Out of the blue the Bonnet rep reached out to me via email. I loved the Bonnet, but not the price. Maybe I'll contact him again and see how much wiggle room there is. They didn't have a "stock" coup plus two in the size I needed.Maybe I'll rethink the whole thing. Truthfully, it's near to identical to the Rorgue. Sigh, sigh sigh...
                                      The Polyscience was recommended to me by the Molteni rep-he loves his and can put it away when not needed.GREAT idea to do meals that way with our busy crazy household.I guess I was thinking of it more for fancy pantsy stuff, but you point out the practical side of it.
                                      i definitely had planned on unpacking the hood as soon as the room is finished, maybe sooner (if I can find some manly men to help me, since it's the size and shape of a small water buffalo). Some of the cabinets had tiny dings in them that need to be touched up-negligible, but it will bug me if they're not perfect.
                                      Are you going to the St. Remy Kitchen Works? Where are you viewing the Bonnet? Your suite sounds so amazing! If you get the Jade, will you be getting the lights, hood etc. set-up that they show on the website for the Waldorf Suite? That's one serious looking island! Will you be getting a salamander?

                                      1. re: HadesHnds

                                        The only residential gas range I was considering was the Capital Culinarian - it's hobs burn at 22-23k btu. We actually have one at our farm, and it's a solid, solid piece of gear - oven is great good too. Open burners, easy to clean, and easy to repair and adjust. The Bluestar is not easy to clean, it's materials are cheaper/thinner, and it's just not as well-built. But Bluestar has more $$ for marketing. I'd have NO problem using the capital every day, in fact - I'd like it. However - they don't make an island, and that's what we need for this situation - otherwise we could just "cherry pick" components and build the thing, probably for a LOT less. Capital is an excellent service record, and the people seem to be really solid. I thought the finish on it was very good, and I've cooked on it many times. Solid piece.

                                        However the Bonnet is a different animal altogether. It's custom, it's hand-built, it's a professional, artisan range. I do think it's like buying a luxury car, and/or art...it's what THE BUYER wants, and if the means are there - why not? Other than your bed, you will use the range more than anything in your house (lay off the tv, and the toilet comments pls). Like you - for us - it's the center of where we "hang out".

                                        One of the key points for us, beyond the island location is the cleaning - the Bonnet is CLEARLY a step apart from anything else in this regard, no "seams" on the top, and the water bath under the open burners, and the griddle/plancha, even the Coup or "piano" is over water - so clean up on overspill is way easy. I'd have put drains in the floor of our kitchen if the boss had allowed me, but that's an argument I will not win.

                                        I have spoken to people who have cooked on a Bonnet professionally and they love it, call it a different quality than anything else out there...just a few comments.

                                        Now - can you make the same food on anything else - of course, my Grandma's lamb chops were the best chops I ever ate, and she cooked on an electric burner GE range. the skill and passion of the person cooking, along with ingredients are the key, not the gear.

                                        If it makes you happy, good for you, I'm all for happy.

                                        Regarding the Jade - we would do lights in the hood - gotta see what you're doing.

                                        We have to have MUA in our hood, and it's a complicated mess.

                                        Our range will have 4 gas hobs, a griddle/plancha, an induction hob, and a sink/SV chamber, a pot filler, electricity, and we may lose our minds an check out the coup/piano...that's certainly over-kill, but cooking for 12 each meal of the weekend, every weekend as the minimum number, with teenagers who have hollow legs to fill up, well, we'll use that capacity. Our weekend night guest list is minimum of 7, but usually 9-10. However - no Salamander, we don't need that - I've got a blowtorch.

                                        1. re: hopeittastesgood

                                          Dear Hopittastesgood, you had written that St. Remy Stove Works reps both the Bonnet and the Rorgue. I've been in touch with Guillaume for a while now (is that who is helping you?), and I wasn't left with that impression.
                                          In fact, he's spent a considerable amount of time decrying my choice of the Rorgue (which is driven in part by cost, as I was able to get the Rorgue for quite a bit less.) Construction-wise, except in small details, they are very similar- water bath, certified hygienic etc. and Rorgue was the original-so I'm confused. Am I missing something?
                                          Guillaume feels that it's the height of foolishness to have a coup in a residential setting. He recommends a plancha instead and says you can use it the same way. The Molteni rep had a coup, just about as powerful, and it seemed ok to me.
                                          it sounds like you've done more research on the Bonnet-would you be so kind as to share what you've learned?

                                          1. re: HadesHnds

                                            That's who we're speaking with, but he's been decent on the Rorgue to us, but in all honesty, we're not really looking at the Rorgue due to our preference. I did get a name of someone else who reps the Rorgue, and if I can find it - I'll post it here for you. The Rorgue has been more difficult to get info on, but all of these ranges are esoteric to some degree. Guillaume also shared with us that getting a coup/french top is a bad idea, due to heat, and cooling down issues. We're looking at the steel plancha as being more versatile - we can use it like a coup, but also cook on it like a griddle. We are big griddle users - every, single, morning we're cooking on our griddle, the plancha is just a much more flexible griddle in many ways.

                                            We're going to NYC to see the Bonnet in the next 1-3 weeks, we are trying to schedule a trip now. We had wanted to go to NOLA to see one in a private residence, but getting there from here is too much of a pain, with 5 kids to mind while we're flying around, no thanks. NYC is there and back, easy-sneezy.

                                            Frankly, I like the Bonnet over the Jade right now because of finish, and options. Jade doesn't offer a plancha, and the Jade burners are so hot (30k btu vrs 23k on the Bonnet). The Bonnet, like the Rorgue has the water baths under the plancha and burners, and that's crucial item for us, as well as the seamless top (cleaning ease), which the Jade will be built in sections. The Jade is considerably less expensive, but you get a level of finish with the Bonnet that makes it difficult to compare the ranges. But money talks, so we have to get the final pricing.

                                            We may have to switch from an island suite design to one against a long wall, but frankly, that will only reduce the cost, as the island is more complex to build. The issues with our hood are driving our decision/placement on the range/cooking gear.

                                            I can't give you a proper assessment on the Rorgue v the Bonnet because I simply don't know enough to do so. I can tell you - there is no comparison for us with the Jade/Bonnet and any of the residential "French style" ranges, none of them bring the full package together for us that the jade/bonnet will.

                                            Guillaume has been good to us, but I get the sense he's a strong-opinion type person (I like that) I read his linkedin profile, and he worked for Molteni for quite a long time, and thus he's someone who has worked in the field for quite awhile, as I said, I like that, as I'd rather have someone who says something and can back it up with reasoning, even debate it - rather than someone who will say anything to get a sale.

                                            Let me know what you're thinking, and I will post when I learn more.

                                            1. re: hopeittastesgood

                                              Dear hopeittastesgood (and everybody else-hello!!), I'm still having a freak-out about the whole thing. I'm in design hell too :((.

                                              As I mentioned in a previous post, we had purchased a lovely display kitchen, but we need to flesh out the cabinets with a few more. That has necessitated some wiggling around of side walls and such, at which point we were running into some structural issues.

                                              My cabinet lady, good though she is, can't get her head around the idea that I can't just go around blowing out walls willy-nilly; that the kitchen area abuts other rooms and needs to relate to them. She is (probably rightly) concerned about creating design and symmetry (which it will have, regardless. I work in design as well, so I "get" it); at this point, as the clock ticks away as does the contractor money meter,I'm more concerned about function and fitting everything in.

                                              Meanwhile, I need to get the design DONE and the cabinets ordered pronto Tonto, and that also means the stove.

                                              Two burners and a coup (or even two burners and a plancha) doesn't seem like quite enough, even though I'm told that both can be used in a variety of ways. Michael, the Molteni rep, frequently hosts large dinner parties at his home where upwards of fifty different dishes appear, all from the two burner/coup configuration, though many of the guests are chefs. It would be a new way of cooking as well.

                                              "Hope", you had raised some good points about not always being right next to the stove to stir stuff-that's me too. I tend to be chopping something or grabbing the phone or multi-tasking a lot. Fortunately the Rorgue and the Gullo are in about the same BTU land as the Bonnet. I agree-the Jade sounds almost too much for what I need it for.Will I be able to deal with turning on a coup or a plancha? Will I miss the two extra burners?How bad do I want the water bath thing?After cleaning my old stove, the answer on that is "pretty bad", but if I go with the Gullo, I'll get four burners AND a coup, plus a lifetime guarantee and UL listing.Am I doing the right thing?Can I sell one of the kids to pay for more kitchen!? ROFLOL

                                              Because this is an extremely extensive remodel (almost a tear down and rebuild), my budget is spread across the whole house, rather than on just the kitchen. My husband is in sticker shock over the whole thing, and especially the stove, but he knows how much I cook and how big our family is.

                                              I know for many people, picking a luxury stove should be reward enough. We've saved for an awful long time to make this happen. I just don't want to screw it up.Anybody else out there who went through indecision hell during their remodel? How did you survive, and how did you choose? I'm pretty sure there are a few more of these dilemmas ahead. But I AM buying a red clawfoot bathtub!!

                                              1. re: HadesHnds

                                                You know, people have survived worse.

                                                If you're concerned, get the Gullo, it's probably less potential problems than the Bonnet due to plumbing with the water drains. Buy a Molteni. Shoot, I was with someone today who LOVES his La Cornue. At some point though - buy the ticket, and take the ride. Over-thinking only causes paralysis by analysis.

                                                I, and YOU, can cook on anything, and often do. In fact, some of my best times in the kitchen are when I'm put into the weeds and asked to do something I'm totally unprepared for. That's the fun of imperfection.

                                                Every stove you're evaluating is awesome. You can't go wrong. If you make the "wrong" choice on stove - how "wrong" are you going to be? Not very is the answer.

                                                Look at it this way: It's a damn good problem to have!!

                                                You're going to end up with better gear than most commercial establishments.

                                                On top of that, you have 5 kids and health. Sounds good to me.

                                                1. re: hopeittastesgood

                                                  I could not agree more with the last post. They are all workhorse ranges that will not give you any issues. I have worked at professional kitchens that have bonnet, molteni, jade and athanor. The athanor range was the best product in my opinion. Though more industrial looking I recommend you check them out and at about 20% cheaper you can save on that and buy a rational combi oven and make everyone realize you made the better funds appropriation.:)

                                                2. re: HadesHnds

                                                  So! What did you decide!!?? Dying to know.

                                                  1. re: hopeittastesgood

                                                    Dear everybody, I haven't yet decided . I'm not, as one sales rep put it,"in analysis paralysis"; rather, my husband is in "I'm spending HOW much on a stove!!??"
                                                    We had set a budget for the kitchen, knowing that it would be the biggest (most important, most overdue) part of our remodel, and now that the bills are rolling in, he keeps shrinking it.Mind you, my bargain hunting has kept us well within our range, but he's shifted his funding away from the one area that was a priority, frustrating me beyond all telling.
                                                    My contractor can't move on until we decide on the rest of the cabinets etc.and my husband can't pry his fingers away from the cash.I love him, but I think I'm gonna kill him right about now. Is this part of the remodel?? Lol

                                                    1. re: HadesHnds

                                                      Dearest Chowhounders All ,Sorry, long post! Not sure if anyone is even on this thread anymore, but I feel the need to post anyway, just to put it out there.There is so little real person feedback on even the shopping experience for a performance stove that I feel very obligated to share my experience.Please know that I am not rich, and saved for a long time to finally have a new(not hand-me-down) really great piece of equipment.

                                                      What a wild multinational ride this has been. And to dear Ferret, who rightly pointed out the not big deal shipping costs (well, that was a wall cabinet or sumthin')I hope I didn't scare you away. All opinions are welcome-gosh, it was me who asked for 'em!

                                                      It is decided. And guilt is definitely riding high, but I'm trying to look at this as a business decision, rather than a personal one.I'm getting (if anyone cares) the Officine Gullo.

                                                      In a perfect world, I would have purchased the Molteni, and truly, it's still my first choice, but my husband was unwilling to spring for the four burner model (like $45K), and was highly concerned(because he cooks so much-NOT!!) about only having two burners and the coup on the more "modestly priced"(ha!) unit. I coulda' choked that one down!

                                                      That same concern, plus the rather extreme depth (for a home application with a cabinet depth of 24") of the Rorgue and the Bonnet-35"!! ( AWESOME units, but without the configuration I wanted unless I went custom, which equaled BIG $$s) limited my choices.

                                                      BTW, the Rorgue and Bonnet are excellent choices (Rorgue being the original, owned by Gordon Ramsey etc). in an island application. Matthieu at Rorgue was super easy to work with, and very accommodating. Guillaume at Bonnet was extraordinarily passionate and persuasive. Had my husband been comfy with two burners, I might have "bit' at Guillaume's 2 plus a plancha offer- a very nice configuration, but a mighty deep stove.On to the beautiful (and it IS!!) Gullo.

                                                      Normal-ish depth, like the Molteni, so it won't be hanging out all over the place like my fat.GORGEOUS and solidly built-this is NOT a light little trifle.LIFETIME guarantee-waaay better than any other unit on the market.PLENTY of power under the hood(36K on the coup,8500-26K on the large burner, and 5200-18,800K on each of the 3 medium burners, so you're not forced to choose a low, medium or high burner to cook on-all can be interchanged, unlike the Lacanche (which, just sayin' isn't all that bad a stove for the price-it has style, a GREAT ambassador program, fabulous sales support, and a very decent amount of power(18K) under the hood, combined with a wide variety of configurable options and sizes. I did not meet a single person that did not LOVE their Lacanche.

                                                      I needed to fit the stove into a limited space, which again limited my choices. I'm going with a 50 inch (wish had room for a bit more) pro model with an optional dehydrating/warming cabinet, four burners and a coup de feu. Still need to finalize the color, but it will be some sort of green.I'll post on the actual performance of everything, good bad or mediocre, when the beast arrives, which will be some time from now. And the very best of luck to the rest of you in your stove search/ purchase. I'm jealous of those that have more room to roam in the kitchen LOL!! Thanks everybody! hugs, Laura