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Why make something so simple so complicated?

Candy Feb 6, 2014 09:35 AM

Last night I had the urge to make spaghetti carbonera. Simple, 4 ingredients including the pasta. Very quick and very easy. eggs, cheese, bacon or pancetta, and pasta.

Today on another board from FB a chef was offering a Valentine's dinner for two. He suggested carbonera and gave a recipe that required a roux of flour and butter thinned with heavy cream etc. etc.

As I stated above why? It is such a simple thing that I am puzzled that anyone would want to make it complex.

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  1. k
    kagemusha49 RE: Candy Feb 6, 2014 09:38 AM

    It's all part of the American fashion of requiring you to get a university degree in such mundane subjects as nose-picking

    1. cowboyardee RE: Candy Feb 6, 2014 09:42 AM

      Probably because the recipe is for people who aren't so much interested in traditional carbonara as they are in replicating what they had at the Olive Garden (who presumably makes their sauce the way they do so it can be prepackaged and shipped and require absolutely zero skill or training to warm up and add to pasta at their restaurants).

      1. jrvedivici RE: Candy Feb 6, 2014 09:42 AM

        Ever since the caveman invented the wheel, every generation since has tried to re-invent it.

        1 Reply
        1. re: jrvedivici
          c
          Chatsworth RE: jrvedivici Feb 6, 2014 07:57 PM

          Yeah, apparently, it's actually rocket science. Look Ma, no wheels.

        2. g
          GH1618 RE: Candy Feb 6, 2014 09:56 AM

          Carbonara was likely invented as a simple pasta sauce for American GIs in Rome, using ingredients they had available. Your version seems to be dumbed down to its bare essentials. Marcella Hazan's version, in addition to eggs, cheese and pancetta (or bacon), has garlic, olive oil, dry white wine, pepper, and parsley.

          No doubt the author of the other recipe was trying for something more interesting than the most basic version of the sauce. Do you really think that there is no value in going beyond the minimum necessary ingredients for a dish? If so, I think there are some cookbooks which take that approach.

          10 Replies
          1. re: GH1618
            c
            calumin RE: GH1618 Feb 6, 2014 10:07 AM

            I don't see anything wrong with adding ingredients to a simple dish, but making a roux turns it into something else completely.

            Although the ingredient list is simple, carbonara isn't the easiest of pasta dishes to make well -- especially if it's your first time. It's easy to make something resembling a good carbonara but out of balance. Or pasta with egg scramble. Using a roux is actually more fail-proof than the traditional recipe, although different.

            1. re: calumin
              g
              GH1618 RE: calumin Feb 6, 2014 10:11 AM

              Granted, it's probably "something else completely." But innovation is not unknown to cooking. The question is, is the variation any good?

            2. re: GH1618
              monavano RE: GH1618 Feb 6, 2014 10:15 AM

              I'm all for riffing on a recipe and going beyond the minimum, particularly because I'm famous for "using up" what's in my fridge.
              But, this is turning carbonnara into pasta with cream sauce.
              I won't even call it Alfredo, because that's a whole 'nother can o'worms ;-)

              1. re: GH1618
                c oliver RE: GH1618 Feb 6, 2014 10:16 AM

                I also make the Hazan version and think every ingredient is integral to the dish. I WILL make it if I don't have parsley but it suffers.

                @calumin, I find her recipe to be slam dunk simple. From the very first time. Here's her recipe and you don't EVER get "egg scramble".

                http://momofukufor2.com/2010/08/carbo...

                1. re: c oliver
                  monavano RE: c oliver Feb 6, 2014 10:21 AM

                  Thanks for the recipe link. I like that it's foolproof.
                  I watched Anne Burrel (Secrets of a Restaurant Chef) make carbonara yesterday and she added 8 eggs to her pan of pancetta and spaghetti.
                  Big difference in egg amount.

                  1. re: monavano
                    c oliver RE: monavano Feb 6, 2014 10:48 AM

                    And with Hazan's the cheese and pepper are added to the eggs and then the pasta so not scrambling.

                    1. re: c oliver
                      Candy RE: c oliver Feb 6, 2014 01:24 PM

                      Same with the recipe I used.

                2. re: GH1618
                  hill food RE: GH1618 Feb 6, 2014 11:48 AM

                  I'm cool with going all baroque with flavors and such, but the egg vs. roux is a structural question. yes, too many steps.

                  in carbonera the egg IS the thickener. or as a friend once pointed out in my early days of Alfredo attempts "you don't need to make a white sauce, the heavy cream works as a white sauce."

                  1. re: hill food
                    Will Owen RE: hill food Feb 6, 2014 06:05 PM

                    As somebody said, bechamel Alfredo is another can o'worms, but a big peeve of mine. The only excuse for it - again - is that it's cheap'n'easy, especially if you're going to sell jars of it. Learning to do that right – reducing cream – set me off on a whole family of variations, all good. As is lowering the carb content!

                  2. re: GH1618
                    l
                    lsmutko RE: GH1618 Feb 6, 2014 12:10 PM

                    The GI story is only one of the origin stories. There are others that point to it being a country dish and/or something that charcoal-makers would eat when camped out making charcoal, and was the simpler preparation of pasta, eggs, hard cheese and pancetta or guanciale.

                  3. monavano RE: Candy Feb 6, 2014 09:58 AM

                    A "chef" gave this recipe?
                    Ugh.
                    It's not complex, it's wrong ;(

                    1 Reply
                    1. re: monavano
                      Candy RE: monavano Feb 6, 2014 01:25 PM

                      That was my thinking. Very wrong.

                    2. j
                      joonjoon RE: Candy Feb 6, 2014 10:02 AM

                      That's not making it complex...it's turning carbonara into something completely unrecognizable.

                      6 Replies
                      1. re: joonjoon
                        cowboyardee RE: joonjoon Feb 6, 2014 11:00 AM

                        It's turning carbonara into more or less what's served as 'carbonara' in American chain restaurants. If chain restaurants and convenience foods are your frame of reference, that IS how you make pasta carbonara. The recipe is not for something unrecognizable exactly - it's how to make this
                        http://www.seriouslygood.co.nz/Produc...
                        at home.

                        1. re: cowboyardee
                          j
                          joonjoon RE: cowboyardee Feb 6, 2014 11:41 AM

                          I eat at chain restaurants from time to time and I've never seen carbonara on the menu...alfredo everywhere but never carbonara. I guess I need to go to Olive Garden more often. :D

                        2. re: joonjoon
                          JTPhilly RE: joonjoon Feb 6, 2014 11:14 AM

                          Exactly. The whole point of Carbonara and other Italian standard pasta dishes is that they are quick simple and made from available ingredients - its an every day dish - like puttanesca. Overcomplicating it by using techniques and ingredients that are foreign to it is not an elevation it is a bastardization. I bet anything that a properly prepared (like Hazan's) will taste much better than the roux and cream version. A relative has a name for this style of American-Italian restaurant food he calls it Pasta-Alla-Gloppa and I think it fits.

                          1. re: JTPhilly
                            monavano RE: JTPhilly Feb 6, 2014 11:27 AM

                            I like the name. Apropos for the "Americanization" of other cuisines, like Chinese food.
                            It's glopizication.

                            1. re: monavano
                              g
                              GH1618 RE: monavano Feb 6, 2014 11:33 AM

                              "Glopification" works a little better, I think.

                              1. re: GH1618
                                hill food RE: GH1618 Feb 6, 2014 11:53 AM

                                sure but there is the threat of a neutralizing universal 'glopalization' among so many foods...

                                y'know lowest common denominator and all.

                        3. Gastronomos RE: Candy Feb 6, 2014 12:31 PM

                          guanciale, not pancetta, and bacon, well, it's ok...
                          and the egg I add at the very last minute, off the fire, stirred through as I am plating...

                          6 Replies
                          1. re: Gastronomos
                            c oliver RE: Gastronomos Feb 6, 2014 12:46 PM

                            If you haven't tried the Hazan method, you may want to give it a whirl. Adding the pasta to the bowl that already has the beaten eggs, cheese, pepper, parsley. Then the wine/pork.

                            1. re: c oliver
                              Gastronomos RE: c oliver Feb 6, 2014 12:58 PM

                              Sounds GREAT ! and I do add copious amounts of coarsley ground black pepper

                              1. re: Gastronomos
                                c oliver RE: Gastronomos Feb 6, 2014 01:04 PM

                                It really is one of those "sum of the parts" things, isn't it?

                                1. re: c oliver
                                  Gastronomos RE: c oliver Feb 6, 2014 01:12 PM

                                  just as long as you make it like she says... I'll be there....

                              2. re: c oliver
                                Candy RE: c oliver Feb 6, 2014 01:27 PM

                                That is what I was doing. I warmed the bowl a bit before mixing eggs and cheese together and got the hot pasta in with the mixture. It was perfect.

                              3. re: Gastronomos
                                Candy RE: Gastronomos Feb 6, 2014 01:22 PM

                                guanciale is only available by special order here.

                              4. ipsedixit RE: Candy Feb 6, 2014 01:29 PM

                                Job security.

                                Chef's make you believe every dish is complicated. Boiled water included.

                                So you then come to the conclusion, "it's simply too difficult to make at home"

                                Let's go out to eat.

                                3 Replies
                                1. re: ipsedixit
                                  monavano RE: ipsedixit Feb 6, 2014 01:38 PM

                                  This chef in the OP makes me think he/she doesn't know how to make a dish as simple as carbonara (although technique is important, no doubt), let alone boil water!
                                  It's a bit embarrassing, really.

                                  1. re: monavano
                                    JTPhilly RE: monavano Feb 6, 2014 01:58 PM

                                    I wonder if they A. Don't know or B. are making a recipe they think would be more palatable - in cooking and taste for the North American pallet -

                                    In the Hazan method what could be perceived as raw eggs (the hot pasta cooks them fine) would make many cooks squeamish - and is the key to the texture of the dish. A roux based white sauce on the other hand is - basically creamed chicken gravy and familiar in perpetration and taste for many Americans - perhaps the recipe is responding its audience - it makes me sad though

                                    Hazan is always the reference for me on how to do it right - I don't always listen but I always should have

                                    1. re: JTPhilly
                                      monavano RE: JTPhilly Feb 6, 2014 02:04 PM

                                      JTPhilly 5 minutes ago
                                      I wonder if they A. Don't know or B. are making a recipe they think would be more palatable - in cooking and taste for the North American pallet -
                                      *******
                                      I wonder the same.
                                      In N. America, its pretty common for "Alfredo" to be ascribed to anything with a creamy, cheesy sauce.

                                      I will be putting Hazan's carbonara on my short list-- maybe Sat. after I restock on eggs from the farmers market.

                                2. monavano RE: Candy Feb 6, 2014 01:34 PM

                                  I think the what we're talking about, aside from specifically carbonara, is "is it OK to add to a recipe and is this considered enhancing it, or changing it beyond recognition?"
                                  I think changing the basic fundamentals isn't complicating a dish, it's changing a dish.
                                  In this case, carbonara is not being made more complicated, it is being changed into another dish entirely.
                                  To add some wine and parsley to carbonara isn't complicated in my book. Changing the fundamental aspect of building the dish, with a roux, just takes the dish in another direction, such that it morphs into something else.

                                  1. Will Owen RE: Candy Feb 6, 2014 06:00 PM

                                    That's just WRONG. No roux nor cream allowed. This has been discussed on Home Cooking at great length – talk about complicating! – but some folks insist on "improving" dishes that emphatically don't need any. There is some warp in our monkey brains that makes us not content to leave well enough alone, and while that's what drives progress we often can't tell progress from just an unnecessary fiddle.

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