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Is Jewish Cuisine a Subset of American?

gastronomics Feb 5, 2014 07:25 AM

Having done a little research on the subject, it seems to me that what we think of as Jewish cuisine is actually a subset of American. It's a mix of kosher German, and Israeli, and Romanian, and other European food traditions. And before Jewish immigrants came and shared those traditions with each other in the US, there was just Kosher German food, and Kosher Israeli food, and Kosher Romanian food, ect.

Am I right or am I missing something?

  1. f
    ferret Feb 5, 2014 07:34 AM

    Not quite. Israeli food is still Israeli food (although the distinctions between Middle Eastern regions is somewhat spotty). "Jewish" is still distinguishable as Eastern European. When people think of delis and traditional Jewish-style cooking, it's primarily from Germany, Poland, Romania, Hungary, etc. Sephardic (mostly Mediterranean: e.g. Spanish, Moroccan, Italian) cuisines have yet to make a strong cultural impression here as a distinct subset or on their own..

    1 Reply
    1. re: ferret
      gastronomics Feb 5, 2014 08:51 AM

      "When people think of delis and traditional Jewish-style cooking, it's primarily from Germany, Poland, Romania, Hungary, etc. Sephardic (mostly Mediterranean: e.g. Spanish, Moroccan, Italian) cuisines have yet to make a strong cultural impression here as a distinct subset or on their own.."

      But I would argue that the traditions of German Jews and Polish Jews and Romanian Jews and Hungarian Jews ect have combined into one distinctive cuisine in the US, and that the delis in which we most often see that cuisine have made a strong cultural impression on America.

    2. JungMann Feb 5, 2014 07:42 AM

      Calling Jewish cuisine a subset of American cuisine is almost as inaccurate as referring to one monolithic Jewish cuisine. There are multiple Jewish cuisines that broadly reflect the origins of certain Jewish communities whether they are Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Cochin, etc. What you call kosher German food, kosher Romanian food, is what German/Romanian Jews would probably call Ashkenazi, not American.

      Yes, there is regional variation in Ashkenazi cuisine, Romanian recipes for chopped liver, German recipes for gefilte fish, but there is bound to be variation within any broad category. That variation, though, is nothing compared to the chasm between Persian Jewish dinner at somebody's home in LA and pastrami on rye at a kosher deli in NYC.

      1 Reply
      1. re: JungMann
        gastronomics Feb 5, 2014 08:45 AM

        "Calling Jewish cuisine a subset of American cuisine is almost as inaccurate as referring to one monolithic Jewish cuisine. There are multiple Jewish cuisines that broadly reflect the origins of certain Jewish communities..."

        I understand that there are many different types of Jewish cuisine, but there are also many different types of American and Mexican and Italian ect cuisine. Still, all those are understood as many details which add up to a whole. When you call a square a rectangle, it's not the entire story, but it's not inaccurate either.

      2. PHREDDY Feb 5, 2014 07:45 AM

        Judaism is a religion, and people practicing this religion have and still live all over this planet. Part of the religion focuses on foods that should or not be eaten, based on content and preparation. The food consumed in light of this religion varies as a result of what is and what is not available, to eat in a given geographic location. Thus there is really no "Jewish" cuisine, anywhere in the world as a "subset".
        What has been seen is an amalgamation of food constructed in accordance with "kosher practices" for more than 5,000 years. It seems from some published data that there are twice as many Muslims as Jewish persons living in the United States.
        If so would one ask if Halal cuisine was a subset of American?

        65 Replies
        1. re: PHREDDY
          f
          ferret Feb 5, 2014 10:50 AM

          "Jewish" as it's referred to today is food associated with immigrants from Eastern Europe. Halal, like Kosher is another thing entirely.

          1. re: ferret
            s
            Siegal Feb 5, 2014 11:04 AM

            That is very wrong

            1. re: Siegal
              f
              ferret Feb 5, 2014 11:24 AM

              Wrong how?

          2. re: PHREDDY
            EarlyBird Feb 5, 2014 11:31 AM

            Phreddy, ask any Jew the world over what he thinks of when he hears the words "Jewish food," and he will immediately think of pickled herring, stuffed cabbages, kreplach, brisket, matzoh balls, gefilte fish, chopped liver, etc., a cuisine which was developed in and is surely a "subset" of Eastern European cuisine.

            Put another way, "Jewish food" is not merely what any Jew is eating at any moment.

            Your statement could be extended to suggest that there is no identifiable "Chinese food" since tens of millions of Chinese people the world over subsist on hamburgers, pasta, enchildadas and the like.

            1. re: EarlyBird
              l
              Lizard Feb 5, 2014 11:52 AM

              Careful. Jewry does not necessarily mean Ashkenazi Jewry. Now I have to ask, is Jewry a word? Writing it so many times has confused me.

              1. re: Lizard
                EarlyBird Feb 5, 2014 01:19 PM

                "Jewry does not necessarily mean Ashkenazi Jewry."

                No, but for the most part it does. It is reasonable, therefore, to consider "Jewish food" the cuisine created by Jews of Eastern Europe over many years.

                (Yes, "Jewry" is a word.)

                1. re: EarlyBird
                  t
                  tzurriz Feb 5, 2014 01:21 PM

                  Jewry is a word, the rest of this is incorrect and Euro-centric.

                  1. re: tzurriz
                    EarlyBird Feb 5, 2014 01:52 PM

                    Of course it's "Eurocentric." Jews are Eurocentric!

                    1. re: EarlyBird
                      scubadoo97 Feb 5, 2014 05:13 PM

                      Only some of them but the the number of European Jews that immigrated to the US was larger than those from other countries.

                      1. re: EarlyBird
                        b
                        Bkeats Feb 5, 2014 08:04 PM

                        Some of my relations by marriage are sephardic and the things you have listed have no appeal to them. Just saying that there are other jewish food identities that have made their way to america.

                        1. re: Bkeats
                          l
                          Lizard Feb 6, 2014 01:28 AM

                          Indeed, and regardless of whether these have made it to America, the declaration that Jews are Eurocentric is insulting as it absolutely ignores the existence of Sephardim and Mizrahim.

                          I must stay away from this conversation, as it seems answers are Eurocentric or ill-informed when it comes to Jewry, or US-centric overall. (Of course, there are some exceptions, but I'm going to give myself an aneurysm if I continue to read this thread.)

                          1. re: Lizard
                            s
                            sandylc Feb 6, 2014 10:32 AM

                            Insulting how?

                        2. re: EarlyBird
                          NE_Wombat Feb 6, 2014 07:15 AM

                          "Of course it's "Eurocentric." Jews are Eurocentric!" - EB

                          Then it's unfortunate that Israel is in Asia. I think you may need to broaden your view of Jews.

                          1. re: NE_Wombat
                            EarlyBird Feb 6, 2014 08:58 AM

                            There are an enormous number of European Jews in Israel, and European culture features heavily there. This is not about geography, per se.

                            1. re: EarlyBird
                              NE_Wombat Feb 6, 2014 11:49 AM

                              "Jews are Eurocentric!"

                              No. Some Jews are Eurocentric.

                              If you don't see the difference between those statements, I suspect I understand the cause of your confusion.

                              1. re: NE_Wombat
                                EarlyBird Feb 6, 2014 01:10 PM

                                Yes. Some Jews are Eurocentric, not all of them. Your level of hostility on this issue is ridiculous.

                                1. re: EarlyBird
                                  NE_Wombat Feb 6, 2014 03:42 PM

                                  I'm not at all hostile. I'm trying to clarify many of the comments you've received into something concise.

                                  The same generalizations you make about Jews ["Jews are Eurocentric!"], conflating "some" with "all", you've made with Jewish Cuisine: "Eastern-European Style American Deli is a subset of American" ergo "Jewish Cuisine is a subset of American".

                                  Just as all Jews are not Eurocentric, all Jewish Cuisine is not Eastern-European Style American Deli.

                                  1. re: NE_Wombat
                                    EarlyBird Feb 7, 2014 10:22 AM

                                    You could not have it more backwards. I NEVER stated that Jewish deli food (as served in America) "is a subset of American." To the contrary, I have specifically gone out of my way throughout this thread to state that it is a Eastern European food. The OP asked whether or not it was a sub-set of American, and I said "no."

                                    The flak I've been receiving is that I've discussed Eastern European food, as prepared by Jews, as "the" definition of "Jewish food." Apparently this is deeply, deeply offensive to some.

                                    But thanks for "clarifying."

                                    1. re: EarlyBird
                                      NE_Wombat Feb 7, 2014 12:13 PM

                                      "The flak I've been receiving is that I've discussed Eastern European food, as prepared by Jews, as "the" definition of "Jewish food." " - EB

                                      And, as many have pointed out, you're wrong for several reasons. The reason I'm focusing on is that " Eastern European food, as prepared by Jews" isn't the definition of "Jewish Cuisine".

                                      "But thanks for "clarifying."" - EB

                                      You're most welcome.

                                      1. re: NE_Wombat
                                        EarlyBird Feb 7, 2014 01:26 PM

                                        You've criticized me for a comment I've never made. Has that sunken in yet? Is this thing on?

                                        1. re: EarlyBird
                                          NE_Wombat Feb 7, 2014 04:24 PM

                                          "The flak I've been receiving is that I've discussed Eastern European food, as prepared by Jews, as "the" definition of "Jewish food." " - EB

                                          "And, as many have pointed out, you're wrong for several reasons. The reason I'm focusing on is that " Eastern European food, as prepared by Jews" isn't the definition of "Jewish Cuisine"." - Wombat

                                          Now, relax. You think "A", and I (and others) disagree. It'll be OK.

                                2. re: NE_Wombat
                                  scubadoo97 Feb 6, 2014 02:05 PM

                                  Not sure where NE_Wombat ancestors were from but Sephardic/Misrahi Jews were looked down upon by the European Jews as being less cultured, less educated and different.

                                  And you would think that after leaving Europe to escape persecution for being different they would look differently on those that were different. Human nature has an ugly side it seems.

                                  1. re: scubadoo97
                                    c
                                    Chowrin Feb 7, 2014 11:35 AM

                                    other way around, scuby. And the Sephardim were in America first.

                                    1. re: Chowrin
                                      scubadoo97 Feb 7, 2014 12:57 PM

                                      You are correct they were in the US first and had come from higher more lofty positions in Europe and in their homelands but In the book The Magic Carpet: Aleppo-in-Flatbush, Joseph A.D. Sutton, he describes being looked down upon by the European Jews. "Their food was strange and they didn't speak Yiddish. Were they even Jewish" Many Syrian Jews who immigrated became merchants instead of pursuing education like their Ashkenazi neighbors. I know my aunts and uncles describe being looked down upon when they were in NY and in the South by the Ashenazi at the time. I guess it depends on when and where

                            2. re: EarlyBird
                              caganer Feb 6, 2014 09:29 AM

                              I worked for several years with an American lady of Eastern Eurpean Jewish ancestry, who moved to Israel, met a Morrocan man, also Jewish, and eventually moved back to the US.
                              Every year around the holidays she told me how glad she was that her husband was a Morrocan Jew because his mother didn't eat gefilte fish or kugel, two things she hated. She was relived that she could eat fresh, spicy Morrocan Jewish food instead of the stodgy stuff she grew up with.
                              That same lady raved about traditional foods of the eastern Mediterranean that she ate while living in Israel.
                              Claudia Roden, who is probably the most celebrated author of English-language cookbooks focusing on Middle Eastern cooking is a Jew from Egypt.
                              That tells me that today, there are a few kinds of Jews and a few kinds of Jewish food.

                              1. re: caganer
                                greygarious Feb 7, 2014 06:42 PM

                                I'm a goy, but some years back, skimmed through a Jewish cookbook I bought as a gift for a recently-converted friend before mailing it to her. I can't recall the title, but it was one of Claudia Rosen's and included recipes and history from all over the world. It came as news to me that there are Chinese-born Jews in China. Before that, I might have regarded Jewish food as primarily eastern-European and western-Asian, but certainly never an original American cuisine.

                              2. re: EarlyBird
                                meatn3 Feb 6, 2014 03:48 PM

                                "Of course it's "Eurocentric." Jews are Eurocentric!"

                                This is a completely ridiculous statement.

                                Perhaps your slice of Jewish awareness is Eurocentric but there are many other aspects to the Jewish experience.

                                There have been Sephardic Jews in the new world since Columbus. Granted, the 1880's brought large numbers of Ashkenazim to the U.S. which undoubtedly has colored many peoples idea of what Jewish foodways are.

                                1. re: EarlyBird
                                  r
                                  ratgirlagogo Feb 7, 2014 11:04 AM

                                  "Jews are Eurocentric!"

                                  Except for the many Jews around the world who aren't in Europe, nor of European descent. WTF are you talking about?

                                  1. re: ratgirlagogo
                                    caganer Feb 7, 2014 11:29 AM

                                    The vast majority of Jews are from Europe or recently descended from Jews from Europe.
                                    This was true in the early 20th century and it's true 100 years later.
                                    It is, of course, an over generalization to say "Jews are Eurocentric" but it's certainly not to say "Most Jews are Eurocentric." Of course there is great diversity among Jewish people - the diaspora is thousands of years old, how could there not be?
                                    America is, for now, Eurocentric as well. There are Americans from all over but we're still Eurocentric.

                                    1. re: caganer
                                      r
                                      ratgirlagogo Feb 7, 2014 11:50 AM

                                      Without even debating whether most Americans are of European descent, "European descent" does not equal "Eurocentricism" by a long shot.

                                      1. re: ratgirlagogo
                                        caganer Feb 7, 2014 12:19 PM

                                        Most Americans are of European descent - there's no more use debating that point than there is in debating whether water is wet.

                                        It's normal for people to look to their ancestors as a guide to cultural practices. This has always been the case.

                                        Looking to Europeans to define cultural practices is certainly Eurocentrism.

                                        The overwhelming tendency for Americans derive our cultural practices from Europe is Eurocentrism. The fact that our closest allies have always been European is evidence of our Eurocentrism. Our political philosophy is derived from writings by Europeans.

                                        The fact that the majority of Jews look to Ashkenazi/Eastern European traditions is eurocentrism.

                                        I'm not suggesting anyone is exclusively eurocentric but it's going to be impossible for you to overcome basic logic.

                                        1. re: caganer
                                          s
                                          sandylc Feb 7, 2014 12:30 PM

                                          Just so long as no one views Eurocentrism as a bad thing or anything to be ashamed of. We are all influenced by something.

                                          There is a hint of an undercurrent here that the act of recognizing, identifying, or labeling something is somehow insulting; some folks are awfully quick to infer things that I haven't been implied.

                                          1. re: sandylc
                                            caganer Feb 7, 2014 01:39 PM

                                            I don't think there's anything bad or good about eurocentrism - as you said, we all are all influenced by something and that's all it is.
                                            There are all sorts of sensitivities inherent in this discussion that even if not touched on, have to be influencing some posters. Jewish identity is too broad and fraught with tough issues to make a suitable topic for a food forum.
                                            I think most Jews in the US, if asked to describe Jewish food would first mention the usual Euro-suspects like gefilte fish before only nodding in the direction of Sephardim, Roman Jewish cooking, falafel and more general diversity.

                                          2. re: caganer
                                            r
                                            ratgirlagogo Feb 7, 2014 03:22 PM

                                            "t's normal for people to look to their ancestors as a guide to cultural practices. This has always been the case."

                                            I agree. But I'm not sure how many Americans of European descent are descended from just one European cultural/linguistic group. People of say, Danish or Polish descent may be interested in their cultural history but are not likely to getting much in the way of cultural practices from either place unless they grow up in a household where Danish or Polish is spoken, more so if there is a family member present in the home who was born in Europe. There are many such households in the USA but many more people of European descent who grew up speaking a language (English) that their European ancestors did not and are at least one generation removed, probably more, from immigration. These people aren't very Eurocentric in any meaningful way, IMO.

                                            For example. Name three prime ministers of Denmark without looking it up. I doubt many Americans of any ethnic background (Danish included) could do so. How Eurocentric can we be if we know so little - are taught so little in school, for example - about Europe?

                                            1. re: ratgirlagogo
                                              s
                                              sandylc Feb 8, 2014 11:34 AM

                                              With new genetic science available now, it's interesting what surprises people can find in their heritage. One TV story did gene sequencing for a college class, and there was one person in the room with African heritage - the blue-eyed blond student.

                                          3. re: ratgirlagogo
                                            EarlyBird Feb 7, 2014 01:34 PM

                                            "European descent" does not equal "Eurocentricism" by a long shot."

                                            You are correct. Nor did anyone on this thread suggest that one's ethnicity determines their "centricity" if that's even a word.

                                            To be "XYZ-centric" is to indicate that one looks towards, is influenced by and perhaps takes cultural cues from that "XYZ." Having traveled in Lebanon I learned, for instance, there is a whole swath of Lebanese Arabs that can be called "Eurocentric," because they look to Europe (often France) for trends, culture and the like. The people of Buenos Aires are among the most "European" people I've ever met.

                                            1. re: EarlyBird
                                              l
                                              lagatta Feb 8, 2014 08:17 PM

                                              Yes, that is true about Buenos Aires, but the food eaten by the many Jewish people of that great city (most of them Ashkenazi, but there are also sizeable Sephardic communities) is quite different from their counterparts in NYC.

                                        2. re: ratgirlagogo
                                          EarlyBird Feb 7, 2014 01:29 PM

                                          Most Jews are of European descent. That makes "Jews" "Eurocentric." That comment doesn't mean that non-European Jews don't exist. Try to keep up, okay?

                                          1. re: EarlyBird
                                            r
                                            ratgirlagogo Feb 7, 2014 03:25 PM

                                            'Most Jews are of European descent. That makes "Jews" "Eurocentric." "

                                            I am keeping up. I just don't agree with you. I believe you're using the word "Eurocentric" incorrectly and illogically.

                                            "Nor did anyone on this thread suggest that one's ethnicity determines their "centricity" if that's even a word."

                                            See your own post above.

                                            1. re: EarlyBird
                                              b
                                              Bkeats Feb 8, 2014 06:09 AM

                                              I'm a goy too but related to Jews by marriage. Those relations have roots all over the place.

                                              But my observation is that wouldn't it be more accurate to say that most or perhaps all Jews are of middle eastern descent since that's supposed to be where it all started? From there they scattered to the far corners of earth. The strongest influence in America for Jews is probably Europe but I'm not sure it's accurate to say most Jews are of European descent as there are many families I know of who have no European roots. Personal anecdotal evidence sure, but does anyone have anything more than that?

                                              The Ashkenazi and Sephardic roots are both European. Just different parts of Europe. I think your argument is rather muddled. No one would lump Italian or Spanish food with German or Russian food into a generic European category and by that mean the northeastern part of Europe.

                                  2. re: EarlyBird
                                    s
                                    Steve Feb 5, 2014 12:28 PM

                                    I'm not sure about "the world over." I ate at a couple of Sephardic Jewish restaurants in Andalusia, and i did not see any of those items on the menu menu.

                                    It was the only time I saw chicken on a menu instead of pork.

                                    1. re: Steve
                                      EarlyBird Feb 5, 2014 01:32 PM

                                      Yeah, and I've eaten Kosher pizza too, but I wasn't eating Jewish food. The Sephardic foods are basically indistinguishable from Andalusian or North African food, but for the Kosher rules applied to it.

                                      1. re: EarlyBird
                                        s
                                        Steve Feb 5, 2014 03:09 PM

                                        It sounds to me like you are using conjecture. Many menu items I had were very different than other typical Andalusian options: Red peppers stuffed with fish paste, goat in almond sauce, beet salad, peppers salad, lentils and rice with coriander, lamb cakes with hot tomato slices and arugula....

                                        If you had eaten any of those dishes, you would say they were markedly different from Andalusian food, and in my area I haven't seen any of these dishes at Tunisian, Moroccan, Algerian, Egyptian, or Syrian restaurants, though I have not traveled to those countries.

                                        1. re: Steve
                                          EarlyBird Feb 5, 2014 03:18 PM

                                          I have traveled pretty extensively in Andalusia, and that sounds actually pretty close to everything I ate there, and I never ate Sephardic or Kosher preparations. Though I can't say I remember eating any kind of fish paste. It sounds very much like the food I've eaten in Morocco and Algeria too.

                                          Now, on the charge someone leveled against me for being "Eurocentric," I bet someone who actually lived in those countries may be able to more quickly identify some of those dishes as "Jewish," or Kosher, than me, a non-native.

                                          1. re: EarlyBird
                                            s
                                            Steve Feb 5, 2014 03:35 PM

                                            The similarity would be the fact that the ingredients came from there - unless you can easily show me menus that reflect what I listed. If it is no different, I suspect you'd find similar menus all over Andalusia. Personally I don't know, though I did read a lot of menus before going.

                                            The most important point is that it is very different from the Eastern European Jewish which is very different from the Middle Eastern Jewish.

                                            1. re: Steve
                                              JungMann Feb 5, 2014 08:32 PM

                                              This topic started out asking if Jewish cuisine was invented in America. Now that we've put the whopper to rest (haven't we?) it'd be more interesting to move onto another thread on how Ashkenazi, Sephardic or Mizrahi cuisine differs from its places of origin. With Sephardic you'll find the absence of ingredients like embutidos, shellfish cooked with pork, paella with rice and no chicken. But you'll also find flavor combinations more reminiscent of the Moors than Iberian cooking today as well as dishes particular to that community in diaspora.

                                              1. re: JungMann
                                                s
                                                sandylc Feb 5, 2014 08:40 PM

                                                "This topic started out asking if Jewish cuisine was invented in America"

                                                ?????

                                                I don't see that in the OP.

                                                1. re: sandylc
                                                  c
                                                  Chowrin Feb 6, 2014 09:00 AM

                                                  If jewish cuisine is a subset of American cuisine, that means that American cuisine subsimes Jewish cuisine, which is flat out wrong.

                                                2. re: JungMann
                                                  b
                                                  butterfly Feb 6, 2014 03:20 PM

                                                  Rice was brought to Spain by the Muslims. As was saffron, sugar, oranges and lemons, many nuts, artichokes, asparagus, eggplant, sesame seeds, and a whole host of other ingredients that we think of being quintessentially "Spanish" today (and the Spanish words for many of these items are Arabic in origin: azafrán, azúcar, naranja, alcachofa, berenjena, arroz, ajonjolí…). The irrigation techniques that the Muslims brought to Spain revolutionized agriculture in many parts of the country--and are even still in use today is some places.

                                              2. re: EarlyBird
                                                l
                                                lagatta Feb 8, 2014 08:21 PM

                                                There are definitely Maghrebi dishes identified by Jews and Muslims alike as "Jewish", though often enjoyed by all. Just because they originated in Jewish communities, or were associated with Jewish holiday.

                                            2. re: EarlyBird
                                              l
                                              lagatta Feb 8, 2014 08:19 PM

                                              Kosher pizza in Rome is definitely Jewish food.

                                          2. re: EarlyBird
                                            bagelman01 Feb 5, 2014 01:13 PM

                                            EB.............
                                            I have to disagree with you.
                                            If you asked my 91 year old mother, born in the Bronx or had asked her mother born 114 years ago in Manhattan to Jewish parents born in Germany, most of the food you listed would be labelled peasant food, eaten by those from the east (Russians, Poles, Litvaks, etc.)

                                            Instead, our family viewed Jewish food as dishes associated with the cycle of Jewish holidays through the year.

                                            So, not discussing the laws of Kosher, It would include Challah (the Sabbath and holiday loaves) made long and braided for year round, BUT round for Rosh HaShanah-Jewish New Year. Just as it would be common to serve the head of the fish for the head of the year and sweet things for a sweet year, such as apple and honey, or tzimmes.
                                            Chanukkah, clebrates the rededication of the holy Temple in Jerusalem and the story of a cruze of oil that lasted 8 days, so fried foods are in fashion. In eastern Europe potato latkes were common, but in Israel they serve Jelly Donuts, boith are Jewish Food.

                                            Passover brings all kinds of restrictions dealing with no leavening. Matzo is the predominant Jewish food no matter where in the world the Jews lived, But the rest of the foods are regioanl specific.

                                            Shavout, the feast of weeks 49 days after Passover is traditionally celebrated by dairy food. In Europe it may have been blintzes, in New York Cheesecake is the item that shows up in abundance. But today it is common to see pizza as an offereing. Pizza, Jewish? Why not? It's unusual to have a dairy meal on a Jewish Holiday but a cheese pizza on Shavout makes perfect sense as Jewish food,

                                            So my premise is that Jewish food is the foods that Jews prepared to celebrate Jewish holidays, many of the foods origibated within the religious strictures and constraints.

                                            1. re: bagelman01
                                              EarlyBird Feb 5, 2014 02:01 PM

                                              It sounds as if your family kept Kosher within the typical German cuisine. Or put another way, ate Kosher German food, rather than ethnically Jewish.

                                              Would they really not have considered brisket, kreplach, bagels, kugel and the like as distinctly "Jewish"?

                                              I draw the distinction between Jewish cuisine and merely Kosher preparations - though I get that lines get blurred in the whole vast stew of Eastern Europe. But no, I don't consider Kosher pizza "Jewish" unless the only definition of the word is religiously Jewish.

                                              1. re: EarlyBird
                                                bagelman01 Feb 5, 2014 02:10 PM

                                                "Would they really not have considered brisket, kreplach, bagels, kugel and the like as distinctly "Jewish"?"

                                                NO.........
                                                Brisket, breast of beef would have been used by my great grandmother for sauerbraten
                                                Kreplach is akin to pierogies made with a thin dough, definitely eastern European peasant food,
                                                Bagels, may have come from Hungary or Poland, certainly weren't in the Jewish bakeries of Germany (I had asken my ex-MIL about this 20+ years ago, she was born and raised in Leipzig before escaping WWII)
                                                Kugel-a cheap starch heavy meal of the peasants of potatoes or noodles to fill stomachs wiothout expensive meat.

                                                All of these foods may be common fare of the eastern European Jewish immigrants to America post 1880, but they were not Jewish food, but food eaten by Jews.
                                                That's why I wote an extensive post about holiday centric Jewsih food.

                                                1. re: bagelman01
                                                  EarlyBird Feb 5, 2014 02:26 PM

                                                  "All of these foods may be common fare of the eastern European Jewish immigrants to America post 1880, but they were not Jewish food, but food eaten by Jews."

                                                  Interesting. The plot thickens.

                                                  1. re: bagelman01
                                                    chefj Feb 7, 2014 04:02 PM

                                                    Kreplach = Maultaschen

                                              2. re: EarlyBird
                                                PHREDDY Feb 6, 2014 03:47 AM

                                                Have you asked Jewish people from Ethiopia what they eat?

                                                1. re: PHREDDY
                                                  c
                                                  Chowrin Feb 6, 2014 09:01 AM

                                                  Or from Yemen?

                                                  1. re: Chowrin
                                                    r
                                                    ratgirlagogo Feb 7, 2014 11:07 AM

                                                    Or China. Or Japan. Or the Philliippines. Etc, etc., etc. Sheesh.

                                                2. re: EarlyBird
                                                  PHREDDY Feb 6, 2014 07:36 PM

                                                  Ask my Jewish friends from Ethopia, "Flashas" or "Black Jews" what they think of when he hears the word "Jewish food", and I am not so sure they think of what you state...

                                                  1. re: EarlyBird
                                                    chefj Feb 7, 2014 03:59 PM

                                                    Try asking the Jews in India. You will get none of those responses. The same in Ethiopia, Spain, Iran etc.................

                                                    1. re: chefj
                                                      cowboyardee Feb 7, 2014 04:03 PM

                                                      What would any of those groups consider the traditional foods of their people?

                                                      (this is not flame bait... I don't claim to know what different Jewish cultures around the world eat, and I'd like to know)

                                                      1. re: cowboyardee
                                                        scubadoo97 Feb 7, 2014 04:23 PM

                                                        Jews from Syria and Iraq cooked the local food. No pork in those countries so it was a non issue. Soup kubba seems to have Iraqi Jewish roots.

                                                        1. re: cowboyardee
                                                          JungMann Feb 8, 2014 06:23 AM

                                                          I'm not an expert in Sephardic cuisine but I know of a couple slow-cooked shabbat dishes. One is called hamin and composed of rice, beans or lentils, spices and meat slow cooked with fruit so that everything develops a rich caramelized flavor. Huevos haminados are eggs steeped with onion skins, coffee or tea and olive oil. The brine infuses the whites with a savory, meaty flavor.

                                                          Like scubadoo says, Mizrahi Jews in the Mashriq cooked the local food, but Jewish recipes seem to incorporate fruit and sweet flavors much more liberally. It's a wholly subjective observation since I tend to favor the sour flavor of lemon, pomegranates and sumac in my cooking, whereas Jewish versions of the same dishes will call for dates, tamarind or even cherries. Rachel Somekh also has a blog about Iraqi Jewish cuisine that might be of interest.
                                                          http://recipesbyrachel.com/recipes/

                                                      2. re: EarlyBird
                                                        l
                                                        lagatta Feb 8, 2014 08:11 PM

                                                        I have several Sephardic /Mizrahi friends who eat very different foods (though they also enjoy Ashkenazi foods). And the food even Ashkenazi Jews eat in other countries with sizeable Jewish populations, such as France and Argentina, is quite different.

                                                    2. b
                                                      beevod Feb 5, 2014 08:19 AM

                                                      Try ordering gefilte fish in Iowa.

                                                      1 Reply
                                                      1. re: beevod
                                                        r
                                                        ratgirlagogo Feb 7, 2014 11:10 AM

                                                        Big Hasidic community in Postville.

                                                      2. gastronomics Feb 5, 2014 08:38 AM

                                                        I ask because "Jewish Fusion" cuisine was recently listed as one of the hot new trends in food and I really don't know much about it. It's odd to me because typically cuisine is really specific to a location, and of course, there are Jewish people all over the world. It's also the only type of cuisine I know of that is specific to a religion.

                                                        I didn't invent the idea of (no qualifier) Jewish cuisine. As I mentioned, I realize there are many different type of Jewish cuisine, but people including experts in the field, talk about Jewish food like Mexican and Italian. Yes, there are many different type of cuisine in Mexico and Italy, but they combine to be thought of as a whole.

                                                        I was looking for the place that those different types of Jewish cuisine combined to be thought of as one overarching thing. To me, that seems to be America.

                                                        "What has been seen is an amalgamation of food constructed in accordance with "kosher practices" for more than 5,000 years." Exactly.

                                                        "If so would one ask if Halal cuisine was a subset of American?" Well, I'm not sure if that's really an accurate comparison, because I'm not talking about Kosher cuisine. Food can be kosher without being Jewish. A better question would be whether you would consider Muslim a type of cuisine, let alone a subset of American cuisine. The answer would be no, which is odd and something I've been trying to understand.

                                                        41 Replies
                                                        1. re: gastronomics
                                                          PHREDDY Feb 5, 2014 09:06 AM

                                                          You are confusing the ethnicity of a person with their religion or faith. You might want to search out a little information on foods and their preparation related to various religions.
                                                          What country are Italians or Mexicans from? What country are the people from that believe in the Jewish religion?.
                                                          People who practice, believe, follow, etc, the Jewish religion are from all parts of the world, much as Christians, Muslims, Buddhists etc.
                                                          Jewish Fusion, as in Asian Fusion? (again religion with ethnicity)
                                                          At least we agree on Bloody Marys!

                                                          1. re: PHREDDY
                                                            gastronomics Feb 5, 2014 09:21 AM

                                                            'What country are Italians or Mexicans from? What country are the people from that believe in the Jewish religion?" That's exactly the disparity I'm trying to understand. I didn't invent the idea of Jewish cuisine. I understand that it's a religion and that you can't go out for some Christian food. There's a reason, I know, but it's definitely odd.

                                                            "People who practice, believe, follow, etc, the Jewish religion are from all parts of the world" Yes, I know.

                                                            "Jewish Fusion, as in Asian Fusion? (again religion with ethnicity)" Yes, but another term I didn't invent in case there was any question.

                                                            "At least we agree on Bloody Marys!" I do love a good Bloody Mary! :)

                                                            1. re: PHREDDY
                                                              EarlyBird Feb 5, 2014 01:02 PM

                                                              "What country are the people from that believe in the Jewish religion?"

                                                              They trace their ethnic heritage back to the nations of Eastern and Central Europe for the most part, and back further to the Middle East. Even most of today's Israelis are likely to have names like Rosenburg and Weinstein than Semitic ones.

                                                              During the diaspora, many Jews settled in Eastern and Central Europe where they developed a distinct Jewish cultural identity - which of course we interwoven with their religion. In using available local ingredients to keep Kosher, they also created a distinctly ethnically Jewish cuisine. So this food is both ethnic AND religious.

                                                              There is a reason that in my very heavily Jewish part of Los Angeles, delis describe their matzoh ball soup, gelfilte fish and latkes as "Jewish," while the Kosher pizza parlor calls their food "Kosher Italian."

                                                              It's very common for Mexican Catholics to eat fish soup on Fridays during Lent, to observe religious rules. That hardly makes caldo de mariscos loaded with red snapper and chile peppers "Catholic food."

                                                              1. re: EarlyBird
                                                                t
                                                                tzurriz Feb 5, 2014 01:09 PM

                                                                "They trace their ethnic heritage from the nations of Eastern and Central Europe for the most part. Even most of today's Israelis trace their roots to those nations."

                                                                Incorrect. Most Israelis are of Sephardic origin (Spanish, Mediterranean, Persian, Middle Eastern, and North African descent)

                                                                Jews settled all over the Eastern Hemisphere. From Western Europe, to Eastern Russia, and China to Ethiopia.

                                                                Jewish Deli Food is one thing, brought by Ashkenazi immigrants from Eastern Europe in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, but there is no such thing as "Jewish food".

                                                                I think that is where this whole discussion went off the rails. We are confusing "Jewish Deli", with "Jewish food".

                                                                All chickens are birds, but not all birds are chickens.

                                                                1. re: tzurriz
                                                                  EarlyBird Feb 5, 2014 02:06 PM

                                                                  I appreciate the correction on the Israeli Sephardim.

                                                                  But I AM describing "Jewish deli food" as "Jewish food," whereas merely Kosher preparations of other ethnic foods hardly qualifies as "Jewish." I just don't think there is any other cuisine which is as distinctly Jewish as that created by the Eastern European Jews. (And thank God for it!)

                                                                  1. re: EarlyBird
                                                                    t
                                                                    tzurriz Feb 5, 2014 02:22 PM

                                                                    Calling a parrot a duck doesn't make it so. Jewish deli food is a subset of both Jewish food and deli. It is not the cumulative of "Jewish food".

                                                                    1. re: tzurriz
                                                                      EarlyBird Feb 5, 2014 02:27 PM

                                                                      You're right: it's not the "cumulative" of Jewish food. It's the most distinctly Jewish food.

                                                                    2. re: EarlyBird
                                                                      bagelman01 Feb 5, 2014 02:26 PM

                                                                      Jewish Deli food in America is merely the kosher adaptation of German delicatessen that existed here before the great wave of eastern European Jewish immigration.

                                                                      1. re: bagelman01
                                                                        EarlyBird Feb 5, 2014 02:39 PM

                                                                        I can live with that. Thanks.

                                                                        1. re: bagelman01
                                                                          j
                                                                          Just Visiting Feb 6, 2014 04:24 AM

                                                                          So not true. It was food eaten in Eastern Europe. Do you think they didn't eat borscht and shav and kreplach in the shtetls? I know they did.

                                                                          And kosher? Maybe back in the early 1900s but no longer, with rare exceptions.

                                                                          1. re: Just Visiting
                                                                            bagelman01 Feb 6, 2014 06:20 AM

                                                                            Unfortunately you know little of the history of Jewish delicatessen in the USA.and you living in LA, a later area for Jewish settlement may explain it.

                                                                            The vast majority of post 1880 Jewish immigration from eastern Europe arrived and settled (at least for a period of time) in NYC and its environs.

                                                                            Delicatessens that they encountered were run by German immigrants and not kosher. The sausages, wursts, etc were made with pork. BUT delicatessens sold MEAT products.
                                                                            These were copied and adapted to kosher diet using the plentiful beef available at cheap prices in America. Beef was a real luxury in the shtetl.

                                                                            The eastern European immigrants may have eaten borscst and schav in the shtetl, BUT these were generally dairy items. They were NOT sold in the early Jewish delicatessens, Fish, dairy, etc. were sold in APPETIZING stores, which were plentiful until the 1960s. Only after the mass exodus to suburbia did we see the 'modern' Jewish delicatessen that sold both meat and dairy items and was open 7 days a week.
                                                                            This is the American modification of the Jewish immigrant deli and a hybrid with the appetizing store.

                                                                            I'm 60 this months. Growing up in New Haven, Ct, born to NYers. We bought deli at the Jewish deli and lox and herring at the appetizing store. After the mid 60s and the destruction of the old neighborhoods (urban renewal) the newly relocated Jewish delis sold both.

                                                                            Kosher is NOT a rare exception on the east coast.

                                                                            The biggest killer of delis was the cholesterol scare/diets of the 1980s on.

                                                                            By the way, many eastern European Jews didn't come from the stetlach. The major city of Vilna, for example was 50% Jewish.
                                                                            City food and village peasant food was quite different.

                                                                        2. re: EarlyBird
                                                                          c
                                                                          Chatsworth Feb 5, 2014 11:55 PM

                                                                          What about the "Jewish style" delis that serve all their meat sandwiches with cheese? Not kosher, not Jewish.

                                                                        3. re: tzurriz
                                                                          a
                                                                          alwayshungrygal Feb 5, 2014 04:48 PM

                                                                          I disagree with "Most Israelis are of Sephardic origin).

                                                                          I think you are ignoring the immigration of many Jews from Eastern Europe after the pogroms, and even many from the US who went there after 1948. One of my junior high classmates (class of 1968) moved there in the late 1980s.

                                                                          A few years ago I had a client based in Israel, and during the course of a week (when she was here) had several conversations with her and her colleagues. More than a few said their parents had moved to Israel from the U.S. and they still had relatives living here.

                                                                          1. re: alwayshungrygal
                                                                            t
                                                                            tzurriz Feb 6, 2014 05:03 AM

                                                                            My numbers are based off the census. Yours are off "people you've met". Thanks. Moving on.

                                                                            1. re: tzurriz
                                                                              a
                                                                              alwayshungrygal Feb 6, 2014 07:41 AM

                                                                              My, what a pleasant reply. I merely cited personal experience, not the books I've read, where as now you cite the census. Ispso facto, you're the expert.

                                                                              Yes indeed, "moving on."

                                                                              1. re: alwayshungrygal
                                                                                t
                                                                                tzurriz Feb 6, 2014 08:18 AM

                                                                                I apologize. I did not intend to come across harshly. I see now that I came across that way.

                                                                                Not to excuse, but perhaps explain - I'm on another forum where there is a massive amount of "anecdata" being touted as scientific fact. I let my frustration there bleed through here. Again, I apologize.

                                                                                1. re: tzurriz
                                                                                  a
                                                                                  alwayshungrygal Feb 6, 2014 01:06 PM

                                                                                  Your explanation and apology are accepted and much appreciated. Let's both move on.

                                                                                  Only as background: my own personal heritage is indeed Jewish, as my ancestors were all from Eastern Europe--all over the map: Poland, Austria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Russia. I wasn't even aware of Sephardic Jews until late in my teens. Thus, my own culinary references are what others have referred to as Ashkenazic cuisine--stuffed cabbage, gefilte fish, cholent, kugel, blintzes (all homemade by my mother and grandmother) and of course what I loving call "kosher soul food" -- NY style deli fare. Everything else was a revelation to me. This whole discussion has been very, very interesting and dare I say it, educational.

                                                                      2. re: PHREDDY
                                                                        bagelman01 Feb 5, 2014 01:19 PM

                                                                        Phreddy..................
                                                                        If you go back 2000 years you will find the ancestors of most peope we know as Jews to have come from the kingdom in southern Israel known as Judea, thus the moniker. The northern 10 tribes have greatly disappeared.

                                                                        Thus Being Jewish can be:
                                                                        Religious identification
                                                                        Ethnicity
                                                                        National Origin

                                                                        In America and much of the free world, one is Jewish by one's own declaration. BUT 1932-1945 it was forcibly applied by the German regime. and in Bergen Belsen they were lucky to get any food, never mind Jewish food
                                                                        Cultural Heritage

                                                                      3. re: gastronomics
                                                                        j
                                                                        Just Visiting Feb 5, 2014 09:07 AM

                                                                        One flaw in your theory that no one has addressed is the concept of "food constructed in accordance with kosher practices." Not so. These various cuisines are reflective of the areas in which they were developed (as others have pointed out to you). They may have been practiced according to the rules of kashrut - i.e., the way you killed the cow that became your pastrami - but the pastrami itself is not a kosher dish and was not created to accommodate the rules or directly influenced by the rules. So there are dishes from those regions that would never become part of the local cooking repertoire of Jews living in that region - most notably those made from pork or shellfish - but the foods that were part of their cooking repertoire were local foods.

                                                                        The only kind of food that I can think of as having been directly influenced by kashrut is something like cholent - a stew that simmers overnight. Because after sundown on Friday night you can't cook. So you heat it to boiling or very hot and turn the heat off and let it simmer in an oven set to very low heat. But it's just a stew.

                                                                        Wait. I think Passover cuisine would be a good case, actually. No bread; matzoh was invented because they didn't have time to let the bread rise. So matzoh, matzoh balls. The other foods on the Seder plate are not unique to Passover.

                                                                        There is no overarching theme, be it kosher rules or the religion of the people who eat these foods.

                                                                        1. re: Just Visiting
                                                                          gastronomics Feb 5, 2014 09:31 AM

                                                                          Thank you for all this very helpful information! I'm not very familiar with kosher dietary rules and I hadn't even heard of kashrut. Obviously, I'm no authority on the subject and I didn't mean to imply I was. I'm just someone trying to make sense of the little I do know on this subject.

                                                                          "They may have been practiced according to the rules of kashrut - i.e., the way you killed the cow that became your pastrami - but the pastrami itself is not a kosher dish and was not created to accommodate the rules or directly influenced by the rules." Which part of pastrami isn't kosher - the technique or the meat? Pastrami was originally made from goose breast in Romania. Is that kosher?

                                                                          "There is no overarching theme, be it kosher rules or the religion of the people who eat these foods." I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but what about delis and the people (including experts) who talk about Jewish cuisine?

                                                                          1. re: gastronomics
                                                                            b
                                                                            Bkeats Feb 5, 2014 10:57 AM

                                                                            First time I've ever heard that pastrami is based on a romanian goose dish. The origin I have heard goes back much further to the time of the ottomans and bastirma.

                                                                            1. re: Bkeats
                                                                              gastronomics Feb 5, 2014 11:07 AM

                                                                              I've read that too, but also that it was really very different in that time. From what I understand, Romania is where something more like the pastrami (originally "pastirma" from the Romanian "a Pastra" which means "to preserve," but changed to "pastrami" because of the popularity of salami) we know today started.

                                                                            2. re: gastronomics
                                                                              j
                                                                              Just Visiting Feb 5, 2014 04:50 PM

                                                                              Kashrut is just the word given to the entire set of dietary laws. Kosher is the English word for kashrut.

                                                                              To the best of my knowledge, pastrami wasn't originally made from goose breast. Pastrami can be made of a number of different kinds of meat, including poultry. Pastrami is a dish characterized by the method of cooking: brine, partially dry, season (usually with pepper), smoke, then steam.

                                                                              There is nothing unkosher about goose or other poultry per se. An animal is kosher if it has cloven hooves and that chews its cud. Camels are unkosher because although they chew their cud, they don't have cloven hooves. Actually they don't have hooves, but consider how long ago these laws were written and how little was known about non-human (or even human) anatomy. Ditto for rabbits.
                                                                              Pigs, of course. Fish must have both fins and scales. All invertebrates are non-kosher except some species of locust. All reptiles and amphibians are nonkosher. Blood is nonkosher.

                                                                              The list of things that makes something kosher or not is head-spinning. Which animal (sometimes which plant), now it is killed. Separate cookware, utensils, and dishes for meat and milk. No mixing of meat and milk foods.

                                                                              So if you had a cow and killed it the right way but accidentally cooked the meat or served it on a dish that had once been used for dairy, the meat would be non-kosher.

                                                                              Jewish cuisine is not a term I hear Jewish people using. When we talk about pastrami, corned beef, tongue, etc. we say deli. When we talk about nova, belly lox, sable, etc. we say appetizing. I never thought of my mother's cooking as Jewish food. I thought of it as Eastern European food, as opposed to the food my friend's mother made, for instance. They were from Iran and they were Jewish and their food was 100% different from the food in our house. Borscht is borsht - people all over Eastern Europe eat borscht. I never saw keftes when I was growing up. I first came upon them at a Whole Foods. And not a Whole Foods in a Jewish neighborhood, either.

                                                                            3. re: Just Visiting
                                                                              gastronomics Feb 5, 2014 09:33 AM

                                                                              Where would you say they converge then? What defines Jewish food?

                                                                              1. re: Just Visiting
                                                                                l
                                                                                lagatta Feb 8, 2014 08:29 PM

                                                                                Dafina is one of the names of the Sephardic/Mizrahi equivalent of Cholent.

                                                                              2. re: gastronomics
                                                                                JungMann Feb 5, 2014 09:14 AM

                                                                                "I was looking for the place that those different types of Jewish cuisine combined to be thought of as one overarching thing. To me, that seems to be America."

                                                                                I'm sure there are a lot of Weinsteins in Wisconsin, but I think the place where different Jewish cuisines converge into "one overarching thing" is probably going be Israel. What Americans generally consider "Jewish," latkes, kreplach, matzo balls, is all Ashkenazi. I understand what you're getting at when you refer to "Jewish cuisine;" what I take issue with is confusing Jewish cuisine generally as a subset of American cookery. The Jews of Hungary, Poland and Austria were all eating Ashkenazi food well before they arrived at Ellis Island.

                                                                                As for "Jewish fusion," I don't know who labelled that a trend -- outside a few small hipster enclaves and the day-long celebration of Thanksgivukkah, there isn't much enthusiasm for yucca latkes or pastrami eggrolls (although I do love reuben eggrolls). The prime example of this trendlet that I can think of is a popup in ultrahip Williamsburg specializing in kugel with global ingredients. They closed after 11 weeks.

                                                                                1. re: JungMann
                                                                                  gastronomics Feb 5, 2014 09:44 AM

                                                                                  "The Jews of Hungary, Poland and Austria were all eating Ashkenazi food well before they arrived at Ellis Island." I thought that was specifically a Jewish subset of German cuisine?

                                                                                  "As for "Jewish fusion," I don't know who labelled that a trend" A few specific non-hipster sources: www.baumwhiteman.com/2014Forecast.pdf http://eatocracy.cnn.com/2013/12/19/2014-food-trends/ http://www.refinery29.com/2014/01/601...

                                                                                  1. re: gastronomics
                                                                                    t
                                                                                    tzurriz Feb 5, 2014 10:05 AM

                                                                                    Then you thought wrong. Ashkenazi are Jews from Eastern Europe. Not just Germany.

                                                                                    1. re: tzurriz
                                                                                      l
                                                                                      lagatta Feb 8, 2014 08:32 PM

                                                                                      Eastern and CENTRAL Europe.

                                                                                    2. re: gastronomics
                                                                                      PHREDDY Feb 5, 2014 10:11 AM

                                                                                      I have looked at the sites you note, and their use of Jewish cuisine, as discussed here (the links you provided), it is where I assume you are asking your question. I appreciate your curiosity, but as you see it has stirred some pretty strong responses. Some information is dangerous without all of the facts. What I gleaned from the sites above is grossly inaccurate information.
                                                                                      Hoped that all here have been able to perhaps point you in a slightly different direction, and help understand what is really happening.

                                                                                      1. re: PHREDDY
                                                                                        gastronomics Feb 5, 2014 10:33 AM

                                                                                        "I appreciate your curiosity, but as you see it has stirred some pretty strong responses." I don't feel like I can be held responsible for the way some people have chosen to respond.

                                                                                        "Some information is dangerous without all of the facts." But where can I really find ALL the facts?

                                                                                        "What I gleaned from the sites above is grossly inaccurate information." I'm not sure how that can be. The sites aren't really speaking about the intricacies of Jewish cuisine, so much as they are saying that Jewish food is gaining in popularity in the US, so I'm confused. You're saying that's grossly inaccurate? Growing popularity is hard to quantify, but I've observed an increasing number of Jewish-based recipes and articles having to do with Jewish cuisine coming from influential. bloggers and foodie publications.

                                                                                        "Hoped that all here have been able to perhaps point you in a slightly different direction, and help understand what is really happening." I appreciate everyone who has tried to help me answer the questions I have, but particularly those who did so without animosity toward me for having asked them. Thank you! My intention was never to offend.

                                                                                      2. re: gastronomics
                                                                                        JungMann Feb 5, 2014 10:57 AM

                                                                                        I'm not sure why you thought Ashkenazi food is German. Perhaps because Ashkenazi Jews historically spoke a variant of High German (Yiddish)? But the fact that Jews from Rotterdam to Romania spoke the language testifies to the intermingling of cultures and foodways within the Ashkenazi diaspora long before they made their way to America.

                                                                                        Baum + Whiteman mentions Jewish fusion as a buzzword; the other links talk about upscale deli. I can't speak to the popularity of upscale deli, but based on the lukewarm reception I've seen for Jewish fusion, I doubt it will be the trend that Korean or general Asian fusion has been in the past few years. Of course my powers of prediction are just as questionable as anybody's so let's check back around Hanukkah to see if anyone is making bourbon bacon sufganiyot in 2014.

                                                                                        1. re: gastronomics
                                                                                          j
                                                                                          Just Visiting Feb 5, 2014 04:56 PM

                                                                                          The German Jews arrived in the 1880s (or earlier). They did NOT go through Ellis Island. Ellis Island did not exist then. It did not open until 1892.

                                                                                          And the German Jews and the Eastern European Jews did not mingle. To the contrary, the German Jews looked down upon the dirty, poor, uneducated immigrants. And in Europe, the Jews of Germany were generally middle- or upper-class, whereas those in Eastern Europe lived in ... well, think "Fiddler on the Roof."

                                                                                        2. re: JungMann
                                                                                          gastronomics Feb 5, 2014 09:49 AM

                                                                                          "In my experiences (I grew up in the Detroit area with a Brooklyn Bubbie) "Jewish Food" as we know it in the US is generally Eastern European food that was brought over and I would not call it a subset of "American Food."" You're saying the mixing of German, and Polish, and Romanian ect Jewish traditions happened before the US? I don't know enough to argue for or against that. But assuming you're right, I'm still confused about the Jewish cuisine label. What makes Eastern European food different from Jewish food and vice-versa? ARE there any differences?

                                                                                          1. re: gastronomics
                                                                                            t
                                                                                            tzurriz Feb 5, 2014 10:06 AM

                                                                                            There are countless differences. I hardly know where to begin. Oh wait, look at borscht.

                                                                                        3. re: gastronomics
                                                                                          PHREDDY Feb 5, 2014 09:34 AM

                                                                                          Again what you are missing is that kosher food follows the rules of (Jewish religion), Judaism, so therefore kosher food is Jewish.

                                                                                          The comparison of Pastrami, is perfect...It can be prepared kosher or not, but it is still pastrami, eaten on white or rye!

                                                                                          1. re: PHREDDY
                                                                                            gastronomics Feb 5, 2014 10:01 AM

                                                                                            "Again what you are missing is that kosher food follows the rules of (Jewish religion), Judaism, so therefore kosher food is Jewish." I get that kosher rules are Jewish (religion) rules, but I do think Kosher and Jewish are two different things. Pastrami can be kosher or not kosher, but regardless, it's origins are (Romanian) Jewish. I don't know all the ins and outs of kosher eating, but if sushi was prepared using kosher methods, it would still be considered Japanese. Not Jewish.

                                                                                            1. re: gastronomics
                                                                                              EarlyBird Feb 5, 2014 01:36 PM

                                                                                              "...but if sushi was prepared using kosher methods, it would still be considered Japanese. Not Jewish."

                                                                                              Exactly right.

                                                                                              1. re: EarlyBird
                                                                                                c
                                                                                                Chowrin Feb 5, 2014 07:55 PM

                                                                                                If you put cooked brisket on it...
                                                                                                (corn on the cob is japanese, by now, surely. they playtest new varietals there, for goodness sakes!)

                                                                                              2. re: gastronomics
                                                                                                r
                                                                                                ratgirlagogo Feb 7, 2014 11:20 AM

                                                                                                " if sushi was prepared using kosher methods, it would still be considered Japanese. Not Jewish."

                                                                                                It would if you were a Japanese Jew.

                                                                                              3. re: PHREDDY
                                                                                                j
                                                                                                Just Visiting Feb 5, 2014 04:59 PM

                                                                                                Bologna, I say. An egg is not Jewish food, but an observant Jew must eat only kosher eggs. How does an egg become kosher? Glad you asked. If, when you crack it, it has a spot of blood, it is nonkosher. It must be thrown away. That is why kosher cooks crack the egg into something cheap that can be thrown away.

                                                                                                An egg can be kosher or not, but if you eat pastrami on white, you are moishekapoier and/or you have no tam!

                                                                                            2. caganer Feb 5, 2014 09:02 AM

                                                                                              I think "Jewish cuisine" as it exists in the US, is an amalgam of central European cuisines prepared following Jewish laws, just as Yiddish is an amalgam of central European languages with some Hebrew mixed in.
                                                                                              There are key differences and there were a few hundred years of segregation in ghettos to allow developments that were independent of of the wider gentile culture around them, but it's all basically central European cooking.
                                                                                              Schmaltz is the Polish smalets, rugelach are not much different from what lots of Slavs call kolachki, kreplach are pretty much a version of pierogi/vareniki/maultaschen

                                                                                              1 Reply
                                                                                              1. re: caganer
                                                                                                j
                                                                                                Just Visiting Feb 5, 2014 05:00 PM

                                                                                                And keftes?

                                                                                              2. l
                                                                                                Lizard Feb 5, 2014 09:08 AM

                                                                                                You seem to be fighting everyone who is trying to correct you on this, but the answer is that you are not right.

                                                                                                Jews are a disapora, which means there are Jews in numerous countries, and in each case, one can see the ways in which there is a fusion with local food traditions (prominence of apricots over raisins, say).

                                                                                                But rather than explain Jewish cuisine to you (there are some good books out there), I'd simply ask that you remember Jews do not live in the US alone. Thus, your question kind of insulting to those of us who live in Europe, South America, Asia, Africa, etc...

                                                                                                (That said, maybe I am missing something in your phrasing of this question.)

                                                                                                25 Replies
                                                                                                1. re: Lizard
                                                                                                  gastronomics Feb 5, 2014 09:15 AM

                                                                                                  I mean no disrespect and maybe I'm not right. If someone says something that raises questions or sounds incorrect to me, I mention it in the spirit of understanding, not winning a fight.

                                                                                                  I understand that there are Jews outside the US and that there are many different types of Jewish food traditions. I'm just trying to understand where they converge into a larger picture.

                                                                                                  1. re: gastronomics
                                                                                                    l
                                                                                                    Lizard Feb 5, 2014 09:20 AM

                                                                                                    That's fine, but please remember that America (the US) is only a piece of this 'larger picture' and not the larger picture itself, ok?

                                                                                                    1. re: Lizard
                                                                                                      l
                                                                                                      lagatta Feb 8, 2014 08:36 PM

                                                                                                      Thanks for the US. Jews in Argentina, Canada and elsewhere also live in "America".

                                                                                                      1. re: lagatta
                                                                                                        s
                                                                                                        sandylc Feb 8, 2014 09:11 PM

                                                                                                        You must be the only other person on this planet besides me who thinks that way.

                                                                                                        1. re: sandylc
                                                                                                          l
                                                                                                          lagatta Feb 8, 2014 09:27 PM

                                                                                                          No, all my South American friends do, and not a few up here.

                                                                                                  2. re: Lizard
                                                                                                    EarlyBird Feb 5, 2014 01:48 PM

                                                                                                    Jewish food is a subset of Eastern European food.

                                                                                                    90% of Jews living in and raised in Europe, South America, North America, Australia, Asia, etc., have ethnic roots in Eastern European ashkenazi Jewry, and would consider THAT cuisine "Jewish" in a way that Kosher preparation of their local regional cuisine - say pho or tacos - would merely be considered Kosher Vietnamese or Kosher Mexican.

                                                                                                    I would strongly bet that the average Israeli makes distinctions between Jewish food and Israeli food. How this distinction is controversial or offensive is beyond me.

                                                                                                    1. re: EarlyBird
                                                                                                      t
                                                                                                      tzurriz Feb 5, 2014 02:19 PM

                                                                                                      Actually less than 70% (if memory serves it is around 63%) of North American Jews are Ashkenazi. Not 90%.

                                                                                                      1. re: tzurriz
                                                                                                        EarlyBird Feb 5, 2014 02:27 PM

                                                                                                        Okay. And that makes Kosher pho Jewish food?

                                                                                                        1. re: EarlyBird
                                                                                                          c
                                                                                                          Chowrin Feb 5, 2014 07:57 PM

                                                                                                          Is Acadian food french?
                                                                                                          No, but it is french inflected, as is pho.

                                                                                                          Likewise, a Kosher Pho is indeed jewish inflected (mostly because of rapid divergence in rawness of meat)

                                                                                                          1. re: Chowrin
                                                                                                            EarlyBird Feb 6, 2014 09:18 AM

                                                                                                            That is exactly my point. Just because something is prepared in a Kosher manner doesn't suddenly make it "Jewish food." "Jewish inflected?" Sure.

                                                                                                            1. re: EarlyBird
                                                                                                              c
                                                                                                              Chowrin Feb 6, 2014 09:22 AM

                                                                                                              A japanese pizza is japanese, however.
                                                                                                              Croquettes are Japanese as much as they are French.

                                                                                                              1. re: EarlyBird
                                                                                                                f
                                                                                                                ferret Feb 6, 2014 12:21 PM

                                                                                                                "Jewish"as its referred to here is a reference to a cuisine, not religious observation. That they - at one time- went hand-in-hand may have relevance if only to support the fact that matzo ball soup or lox and eggs appearing on menus at diners that are decidedly neither Kosher or otherwise Jewish-influenced have accepted these dishes as part of the mainstream.

                                                                                                                Pho, sushi, chicken tikka masala or any other ethnic dish prepared to Kosher standards doesn't change its underlying origins.

                                                                                                                1. re: ferret
                                                                                                                  EarlyBird Feb 6, 2014 01:11 PM

                                                                                                                  Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying.

                                                                                                                  1. re: ferret
                                                                                                                    c
                                                                                                                    Chowrin Feb 6, 2014 01:29 PM

                                                                                                                    Nu. Hindi and Muslim cuisines differ, do they not?
                                                                                                                    Underlying origins are as always a knife to be walked.
                                                                                                                    When you put pork and pineapple on pizza, it's no longer italian.

                                                                                                                    1. re: Chowrin
                                                                                                                      JungMann Feb 6, 2014 01:58 PM

                                                                                                                      "When you put pork and pineapple on pizza, it's no longer italian."

                                                                                                                      It might not be, but don't try to peg the blame for that abomination on real Hawaiians!

                                                                                                                      1. re: JungMann
                                                                                                                        c
                                                                                                                        Chowrin Feb 7, 2014 11:37 AM

                                                                                                                        Whose fault is it then? California?

                                                                                                                        1. re: Chowrin
                                                                                                                          chefj Feb 7, 2014 04:18 PM

                                                                                                                          Ontario Canada

                                                                                                                      2. re: Chowrin
                                                                                                                        s
                                                                                                                        sandylc Feb 6, 2014 02:21 PM

                                                                                                                        "When you put pork and pineapple on pizza, it's no longer Italian"

                                                                                                                        I can see why you would say that about pineapple, but I don't understand what is non-Italian about pork - ?

                                                                                                                        1. re: sandylc
                                                                                                                          a
                                                                                                                          alwayshungrygal Feb 6, 2014 02:26 PM

                                                                                                                          I'll jump in here and posit that the type of pork used is not what some people think of as Italian. What is used on pizza is usually Canadian Bacon, which of course is really just a thick slice of ham (by my definition). I'm deliberately not being very technical about it, but in the Jewish-Italian neighborhood I grew up in (Boro Park/Bensonhurst in the 1960s-1970s), you would no more find that kind of pork on pizza than you would pastrami. Times have changed of course, but most likely, not in the "traditional" pizzerias that still exist, tho much fewer and further between.

                                                                                                                          1. re: alwayshungrygal
                                                                                                                            s
                                                                                                                            sandylc Feb 6, 2014 02:31 PM

                                                                                                                            Good answer.

                                                                                                                            1. re: sandylc
                                                                                                                              a
                                                                                                                              alwayshungrygal Feb 6, 2014 06:12 PM

                                                                                                                              Why, thank you!

                                                                                                                              I have to go a step further and relate my dining experience this past weekend. I had received a flash email that "Brooklyn pizza comes to Los Gatos!" so naturally I had to go there, with 2 other friends. My friends asked to describe that kind of pizza (both CA natives), so I tried as best I could. My definition was--fold the slice in half, and watch the oil drip off a gooey, tomatoey/cheesy slice. The pizza we had, while very good, was NOT even close.

                                                                                                                              http://oakandryepizza.com/menu-dinner...

                                                                                                                              I also have to say, that on my visits "home" (as I still call it, 36 years after leaving), my brother picks me up at the airport and we stop for a few slices at a corner pizzeria a few blocks from home. The smallest place you can imagine, 3 tables, a counter and oven. Heaven awaits and I'm drooling as soon as I walk in the door.

                                                                                                                          2. re: sandylc
                                                                                                                            c
                                                                                                                            Chowrin Feb 7, 2014 11:37 AM

                                                                                                                            Oh, nothing terribly non italian about preserved pork on pizza. Just the combo

                                                                                                                            1. re: Chowrin
                                                                                                                              b
                                                                                                                              Bkeats Feb 7, 2014 12:48 PM

                                                                                                                              Isn't pepperoni a preserved pork product? I thought pepperoni pizza was the favorite pizza of america.

                                                                                                              2. re: EarlyBird
                                                                                                                c
                                                                                                                Chowrin Feb 5, 2014 07:56 PM

                                                                                                                EB,
                                                                                                                I have had sephardic prepared gefilte fish. very different from manichevitz

                                                                                                                1. re: EarlyBird
                                                                                                                  l
                                                                                                                  lagatta Feb 8, 2014 08:38 PM

                                                                                                                  That isn't true in France, the European country that currently has the largest Jewish population in that continent, and it is certainly not true in Israel. French Jews are approximately 50-50, but there is a slight Sephardic majority. And many are now from "mixed marriages". I have friends in Paris; him of Polish descent, her of Moroccan. Great wedding party!

                                                                                                              3. j
                                                                                                                jbontario Feb 5, 2014 09:27 AM

                                                                                                                So, to your "Jewish fusion" question. In Chicago we have a couple Jewish chefs that have taken the Eastern European Jewish deli concept and snazzed it up. Dillman's for example serves a deli menu but in a fancy American Bistro setting with craft cocktails. Just had an excellent whiskey cocktail and corned beef sandwich with some new dills. At another of this chef's restaurants, matzo ball soup is featured along with to-die-for cheeseburgers and the best double-cut pork chop (sliced and layers with foie gras) I've ever had.

                                                                                                                In my experiences (I grew up in the Detroit area with a Brooklyn Bubbie) "Jewish Food" as we know it in the US is generally Eastern European food that was brought over and I would not call it a subset of "American Food." Kosher is not mandatory for any type of Jewish foods and in fact, you've probably never had real kosher food out unless you live in New York or seek out the one or two kosher restaurants in the 10 major cities. You can make almost any food Kosher (cochinita pibil might be hard, but you get the point), so Kosher is not synonymous with Jewish.

                                                                                                                That all typed, I agree with the other posters "Jewish Food" is a bad qualifier since there are Jews everywhere who eat the regional foods with which they grew up. I know quite a few South American Jews who would turn their nose up at a knish (eastern European) but eat empanadas all the time -- and lo-and-behold, they are pretty similar.

                                                                                                                1. s
                                                                                                                  Steve Feb 5, 2014 09:51 AM

                                                                                                                  No answer to your question, but I just wanted to point out that I once ate Jewish Italian food in Providence. Chef Walter does special dinners as well includes certain dishes on his menu. This was a long time ago, but I can refer you to his website which has more info.....

                                                                                                                  http://chefwalter.com/WP-files/WP-Jew...

                                                                                                                  1 Reply
                                                                                                                  1. re: Steve
                                                                                                                    gastronomics Feb 5, 2014 09:52 AM

                                                                                                                    Thanks, Steve. I'll check it out! :)

                                                                                                                  2. k
                                                                                                                    kagemusha49 Feb 5, 2014 10:39 AM

                                                                                                                    I don't see much difference between the Jewish deli food I had 40 years ago in England and the deli food I eat today in the USA

                                                                                                                    1 Reply
                                                                                                                    1. re: kagemusha49
                                                                                                                      gastronomics Feb 5, 2014 11:01 AM

                                                                                                                      That's what I'm seeing. When I first started looking into Jewish cuisine, I was really interested in why we can talk about Jewish food, but not Christian food, or Buddhist food, or Muslim food ect. All other types of cuisine I could think of had a centralized location it originated. Jews lived all over the world, so it was confusing.

                                                                                                                      As I started investigating and realizing what we think of as simply "Jewish" food in the US is actually German Jewish and Romanian Jewish and Polish Jewish, I wondered if the way food simply came to be known under the overarching term - Jewish - was due to the cooperation of Jewish immigrants to the US. I thought this not out of some arrogant idea of national superiority. It just made sense because it gave all these traditions and people one centralized location where they could have talked and cooked together. Location being an essential defining characteristic of any cuisine, it seemed plausible that though Jews live all over the world, they would have shared techniques and created a true mixture of Jewish techniques from all over the world in the melting pot of the US.

                                                                                                                      Plausible, and probably at least partially true, but not the entire or most accurate assessment of what Jewish food is. Hey, I can admit when I'm wrong!

                                                                                                                    2. iluvcookies Feb 5, 2014 10:49 AM

                                                                                                                      I read this book last year and found it well researched and informative on the way eating habits evolved in early 20th century America--with an emphasis on NYC due to the large number of immigrants who passed through Ellis Island.

                                                                                                                      Hungering for America: Italian, Irish, and Jewish Foodways in the Age of Migration by Hasia Diner:

                                                                                                                      http://www.amazon.com/Hungering-Ameri...

                                                                                                                      3 Replies
                                                                                                                      1. re: iluvcookies
                                                                                                                        gastronomics Feb 5, 2014 11:02 AM

                                                                                                                        Sounds really interesting. I'll have to check my library to see if they have it! :)

                                                                                                                        1. re: gastronomics
                                                                                                                          iluvcookies Feb 5, 2014 11:10 AM

                                                                                                                          Another good one (and a much lighter read) is:

                                                                                                                          97 Orchard: An Edible History of Five Immigrant Families in One New York Tenement

                                                                                                                          http://www.amazon.com/97-Orchard-Immi...

                                                                                                                          Some foods we refer to as "Jewish Deli" came from a variety of places--Poland, Romania, Germany, other Eastern European countries, etc.--and restaurants that served these communities adhered to Kosher laws in varying degrees.

                                                                                                                          1. re: iluvcookies
                                                                                                                            EarlyBird Feb 5, 2014 01:34 PM

                                                                                                                            That looks like a great read. Thanks.

                                                                                                                      2. c
                                                                                                                        Chowrin Feb 5, 2014 11:04 AM

                                                                                                                        Read the history of Salonika before you think that America is the world's only melting pot for Jews!

                                                                                                                        American Jewish Cuisine is certainly a thing.

                                                                                                                        But it will never be the only thing... (god willing!)

                                                                                                                        1. EarlyBird Feb 5, 2014 11:07 AM

                                                                                                                          I have always considered Jewish food as mostly Eastern European with heavy German influence. So, kreplach, bagels, chopped liver and other things we think of as classic Jewish-American deli food here in the United States would be very familiar to people in Eastern Europe and/or Germany. Those foods were simply imported to big American cities during the massive immigration of Europeans from roughly 1850 - 1920.

                                                                                                                          I should add that unlike such cuisines brought here by say, Italians, most Jewish food has not been substantially "Americanized."

                                                                                                                          2 Replies
                                                                                                                          1. re: EarlyBird
                                                                                                                            c
                                                                                                                            Chatsworth Feb 6, 2014 12:08 AM

                                                                                                                            Blueberry bagels anyone? Or, as I noted above, a sandwich such as pastrami and cheese on rye. That's "Americanized" for you.

                                                                                                                            1. re: Chatsworth
                                                                                                                              EarlyBird Feb 6, 2014 09:19 AM

                                                                                                                              Note my use of the word "substantially."

                                                                                                                          2. m
                                                                                                                            Maximilien Feb 5, 2014 12:02 PM

                                                                                                                            "Israeli" cuisine is different than "Jewish" cuisine.

                                                                                                                            Israeli cuisine is middle-eastern influenced (and is influencing other cuisines of the region, like everthing else around that area); it can be both influence by Christian, Islam and Jewsish religion precepts (no pork, dairy, no alcohol, ...)

                                                                                                                            Jewish cuisine is a lot more varied in origin and the only commonality between them is the religious rules (northern europe, chinese, indian, israeli, african, USA... influences)

                                                                                                                            1. b
                                                                                                                              butterfly Feb 5, 2014 01:20 PM

                                                                                                                              My Jewish family came from what is now the Ukraine (was then Poland-Russia-Austro-Hungarian-etc.). I live in Spain and there are quite a few Ukrainian/Polish immigrants. I feel right at home in their grocery stores and restaurants. Aside from corned beef and matzo ball soup, most of my favorite childhood comfort food and ingredients are there: kasha, smoked fish, brined pickles, stuffed cabbage, blintzes, poppyseed pastries, borscht, halva, chicken liver spread…

                                                                                                                              16 Replies
                                                                                                                              1. re: butterfly
                                                                                                                                MamasCooking Feb 6, 2014 11:18 PM

                                                                                                                                Do you cook any of it yourself?

                                                                                                                                1. re: MamasCooking
                                                                                                                                  b
                                                                                                                                  butterfly Feb 7, 2014 12:17 PM

                                                                                                                                  Oh yes, I do! Especially in winter. I would feel very deprived if I couldn't, at least occasionally revisit the flavors of my childhood. Pickles are a big one for me. My dad always had at least six crocks of briny dill pickles going in our cellar. I can't tolerate German-style vinegary pickles.

                                                                                                                                2. re: butterfly
                                                                                                                                  caganer Feb 7, 2014 06:53 AM

                                                                                                                                  Is Ukranian-Polish-Spanish-Jewish stuffed cabbage often sweet-sour like it is in the US or is it more straight savory as in Eastern Europe?
                                                                                                                                  I've always wondered where the sweet aspect of American-Eastern-European Jewish savory foods comes from. (yeah, I know about the symbolism of sweetness in Judaism, which is the best explanation I've gotten but feels a little contrived.)

                                                                                                                                  1. re: caganer
                                                                                                                                    Bob W Feb 7, 2014 07:34 AM

                                                                                                                                    I'm not sure about your question: The stuffed cabbage I ate growing up was in a sweet and sour tomato sauce. The golumpkis my now-mother-in-law served me were in a sweet and sour tomato sauce. Same dish. Never had savory stuffed cabbage.

                                                                                                                                    Other dishes my family ate growing up were also of the sweet and sour variety. My great aunt Pearl used to make a "pickled" salmon dish that my dad loved (I ate it but don't miss it). It had tons of raisins in it so it was actually pretty sweet.

                                                                                                                                    1. re: Bob W
                                                                                                                                      caganer Feb 7, 2014 07:37 AM

                                                                                                                                      All of the stuffed cabbage I've eaten - in Romania, Slovakia, Poland and made according to my Slovak-Rusyn mother-in-law's recipe - has been savory with no hint of sweetness. Sauces have been either tomato or sour cream and mushroom. The only times I've eaten "Jewish" stuffed cabbage have been catered meals and it's always been sweet-sour tomato sauce with raisins.

                                                                                                                                      1. re: caganer
                                                                                                                                        f
                                                                                                                                        ferret Feb 7, 2014 07:45 AM

                                                                                                                                        Ugh, NEVER raisins.

                                                                                                                                        1. re: ferret
                                                                                                                                          Bob W Feb 7, 2014 09:22 AM

                                                                                                                                          That's funny -- raisins featured very heavily in lots of the foods in my mom's regular repertoire -- in addition to the stuffed cabbage, also in the sweet kugel and also in her wonderful baked apples (along with cloves).

                                                                                                                                        2. re: caganer
                                                                                                                                          Bob W Feb 7, 2014 07:48 AM

                                                                                                                                          Interesting. My family also had two recipes for noodle pudding -- one sweet with raisins, like most people know, but also one savory, with mushrooms. Actually, there was a third one, I think it was Hungarian, with caraway seeds.

                                                                                                                                          But in the stuffed cabbage realm, always sweet.

                                                                                                                                          1. re: Bob W
                                                                                                                                            caganer Feb 7, 2014 07:53 AM

                                                                                                                                            I had a stuffed cabbage dish in Krakow that was made with a really rich, dark brown-red, sauerkraut, bacon and tomato sauce.
                                                                                                                                            I've always assumed sweet -savory meant Jewish in that style of cooking (besides prune-y bigos, which is the only place I'll ever want to see fruit and cabbage together). I guess not quite.

                                                                                                                                            1. re: Bob W
                                                                                                                                              bagelman01 Feb 7, 2014 08:01 AM

                                                                                                                                              Our family (father's side, the Litvaks) has multiple noodle kugel recipes that are savory (non-dairy) including, onion, ground meat with onion and garlic.
                                                                                                                                              The dary recipes are sweet, some with raisins, some without.
                                                                                                                                              Ex-MIL, born in Germany, raised in Palestinewhen meat was in short supply, makes a noodle pudding with 7 different cheeses

                                                                                                                                              1. re: bagelman01
                                                                                                                                                Bob W Feb 7, 2014 09:19 AM

                                                                                                                                                Hmmm -- my late cousin who was the noodle kugel expert in the family was a refugee from Austria who ended up in Palestine before coming to the US. I loved that savory kugel. It was sooooo cheesy!

                                                                                                                                                She was also known for her compotes. Anyone make compote any more? 8<D

                                                                                                                                                1. re: Bob W
                                                                                                                                                  bagelman01 Feb 7, 2014 10:53 AM

                                                                                                                                                  Compote is the standard dessert at our Seder the second noght of Passover.......................

                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Bob W
                                                                                                                                                    b
                                                                                                                                                    butterfly Feb 7, 2014 12:24 PM

                                                                                                                                                    What about noodles with creamy strawberries in the summer? I always thought this was just a nutty family oddity sort of recipe devised to deal with a glut of strawberries until I saw it on a Polish menu.

                                                                                                                                                    1. re: butterfly
                                                                                                                                                      bagelman01 Feb 7, 2014 12:52 PM

                                                                                                                                                      kids are allergic to strawberries, but broad egg noodles and other berries with sour cream are a summer staple.
                                                                                                                                                      This is either mixed together with the noodles warm from the pot or occasionally baked and served in squares with honey drizzled on top

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: bagelman01
                                                                                                                                                        b
                                                                                                                                                        butterfly Feb 7, 2014 03:45 PM

                                                                                                                                                        I like the idea of baking the noodles to get it all a little solidified. I'm definitely going to try that that!

                                                                                                                                                    2. re: Bob W
                                                                                                                                                      f
                                                                                                                                                      ferret Feb 7, 2014 04:48 PM

                                                                                                                                                      The minute quinces were in season my mom started her compote-making frenzy.

                                                                                                                                        3. r
                                                                                                                                          Raffles Feb 5, 2014 05:03 PM

                                                                                                                                          no

                                                                                                                                          1. MamasCooking Feb 5, 2014 09:11 PM

                                                                                                                                            I would love to find a local source for some authentic Eastern European foods. Maybe Sacramento they have a nice community of Russian and Eastern European immigrants there.

                                                                                                                                            1. cowboyardee Feb 6, 2014 12:17 PM

                                                                                                                                              I'm just wondering...

                                                                                                                                              If the OP had posited instead that "Jewish Deli" food popular in (at least) the Northeastern US was a subset of American food (i.e., it's an Americanized creole cuisine, much as Italian American food is)... would anyone have objected? Would the OP object to that rephrasing?

                                                                                                                                              12 Replies
                                                                                                                                              1. re: cowboyardee
                                                                                                                                                EarlyBird Feb 6, 2014 01:11 PM

                                                                                                                                                Others would freak out on this board anyway, Cowboy.

                                                                                                                                                1. re: cowboyardee
                                                                                                                                                  c
                                                                                                                                                  Chowrin Feb 6, 2014 01:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                  If you wanted to call that Jewish American food, i'd be fine with it.
                                                                                                                                                  Jewish delis exist everywhere, though... (and did so before they went stateside)

                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Chowrin
                                                                                                                                                    cowboyardee Feb 6, 2014 02:18 PM

                                                                                                                                                    Interesting point. Is the Jewish deli food of the US much different from Jewish deli food in other parts of the world?

                                                                                                                                                    1. re: cowboyardee
                                                                                                                                                      b
                                                                                                                                                      butterfly Feb 6, 2014 03:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                      Paris has several Jewish delis that are different, but whose flavors and overall spirit will feel familiar (and enticing) to anyone with a discriminating deli background. Not because they are Americanized (they aren't), but because they carry on the same Eastern European Ashkenazi tradition. Montreal has also has great bagels and its own smoked meat (which I personally love).

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: cowboyardee
                                                                                                                                                        s
                                                                                                                                                        Steve Feb 6, 2014 05:28 PM

                                                                                                                                                        Sacha Finkelsztajn's in Paris is different from what you'd find in the US. Much more of a Middle Eastern and Mediterranean slant, not as meat-centric.

                                                                                                                                                        http://www.laboutiquejaune.com

                                                                                                                                                        1. re: cowboyardee
                                                                                                                                                          PHREDDY Feb 6, 2014 07:38 PM

                                                                                                                                                          Yes it is...where have you experienced "Jewish deli" food?

                                                                                                                                                          1. re: PHREDDY
                                                                                                                                                            cowboyardee Feb 6, 2014 10:18 PM

                                                                                                                                                            My personal experience with it has largely been in the Philly, NYC, and (to a lesser extent) Pittsburgh areas. I'm under the impression that it's more widespread than that, but I haven't particularly searched it out in other cities, and certainly not in other countries.

                                                                                                                                                            1. re: cowboyardee
                                                                                                                                                              j
                                                                                                                                                              Just Visiting Feb 7, 2014 04:17 AM

                                                                                                                                                              You can get a weak fascimile in the DC area. Parkway Deli in Silver Spring is OK but the pastrami and corned beef are best avoided. There's Attman's (of Baltimore fame) in Rockville. Not impressed. There's a fancy-schmancy new place in Dupont Circle called DGS that has the basics but most of the dishes are modern (can't think of a better way to describe what they are doing) riffs - like za'atar and roasted garlic yoghurt on the fries. Potato latkes appear as leek fritters with shallots, cumin, and cilantro yoghurt.

                                                                                                                                                              All of which is why I don't even try. I go to NY if I want deli.
                                                                                                                                                              In my 30ish years here, I've seen many try to open NY delis here and they do great for a short while and then go bust. After decades of heartbreak, I have just accepted the fact that this is why I95 was built.

                                                                                                                                                              1. re: Just Visiting
                                                                                                                                                                s
                                                                                                                                                                Steve Feb 7, 2014 06:28 AM

                                                                                                                                                                Many of DGS dishes show Sephardic influence which sets them apart from a typical deli.

                                                                                                                                                                Though like a lot of places the menu has evolved since opening, some items watered down, and some favorites are no longer regularly prepared.

                                                                                                                                                      2. re: cowboyardee
                                                                                                                                                        gastronomics Feb 7, 2014 10:36 AM

                                                                                                                                                        I had a feeling that this being the internet, I'd end up offending some people with this idea, but I promise, that wasn't my intention in any way.

                                                                                                                                                        I find the idea of Jewish cuisine very interesting because it's the only example I can think of where a non restrictive based (vegetarian for example) cuisine is not from a distinct location. If we were just talking about kosher food, that would make sense, but Jewish food is clearly more than that. There are Jewish techniques and flavors. So then I started researching some of my favorite Jewish foods and learned that though we combine them now all in one place and sometimes into a single dish, they had come from all these different countries. So I hypothesized that America was the distinct location where all those specific types of cuisine German Jewish, Polish Jewish, Romanian Jewish combined most completely yes, in Jewish Deli food.

                                                                                                                                                        Since posting others have posited that America DOESN'T offer the most complete mixture of Jewish cuisines from around the world, which I don't know enough about to argue either way, so I'll just accept it. My desire was not to gain a point for America, just to try and understand Jewish food from a holistic perspective. I had a theory that maybe American Jewish deli food was the best way, but it was just a theory and a question.

                                                                                                                                                        1. re: gastronomics
                                                                                                                                                          c
                                                                                                                                                          Chowrin Feb 7, 2014 11:41 AM

                                                                                                                                                          *hugs* Thanks for rejoining the conversation!
                                                                                                                                                          Israel probably has some of the best Jewish Fusion
                                                                                                                                                          (if nothing else, you see far fewer Ethopian and Yemeni
                                                                                                                                                          Jews in America).

                                                                                                                                                          American Jewish cuisine is indeed fun and awesome... it's just not all Jewish cuisine. ;-)

                                                                                                                                                          1. re: gastronomics
                                                                                                                                                            l
                                                                                                                                                            lagatta Feb 8, 2014 08:49 PM

                                                                                                                                                            I don't think it's offensive at all. This also has me thinking back to some lovely trips I've taken, which is always good. I have had kosher pizza in Rome, in the old Jewish ghetto. Same as any other pizza, except that it is dairy (which can include some fishy things). But I don't like meat on pizza anyway. The friends I was with were Italian Jews, but not kosher. They were more interested in showing me the neighbourhood out of historical and family interest.

                                                                                                                                                        2. Bob W Feb 7, 2014 06:55 AM

                                                                                                                                                          After reading all the posts -- some interesting, some informative, some ignorant, some insulting -- I'm going to take a stab at rephrasing your thesis.

                                                                                                                                                          What "most" Americans (Jewish or otherwise) think of as Jewish food is a subset of Eastern European cuisine.

                                                                                                                                                          For example, the stuffed cabbage I ate regularly as a kid is the same dish that non-Jewish Polish people have always known as golumpkis. Other than the fact that my mom made it with kosher ground beef, the two are identical.

                                                                                                                                                          Other "Jewish" cuisines, such as those from the Mediterranean (which I now find much more appealing than the heavy foods I grew up with) have a lot more in common with the other foods from those regions than they do with Eastern European Jewish foods.

                                                                                                                                                          Other than matzoh, there's no overarching "Jewish" food.

                                                                                                                                                          4 Replies
                                                                                                                                                          1. re: Bob W
                                                                                                                                                            f
                                                                                                                                                            ferret Feb 7, 2014 07:44 AM

                                                                                                                                                            The "Jewish" reference as applied to American cuisine is the focus of a restaurant's menu options. Whether you agree with it or not there are still restaurants where you can expect to the find the "standards" of American Jewish dining, chicken soup with kreplach or matzo balls, herring (herring salad, if you're lucky), knishes, corned beef, pastrami, whitefish salad, lox/eggs/onions, potato pancakes, bagels with anything, etc. At one time they were all certified Kosher, but that's less of a concern for most customers these days. The fact that you can also find certain items elsewhere is irrelevant, it's the assembled menu that makes the restaurant.

                                                                                                                                                            1. re: ferret
                                                                                                                                                              Bob W Feb 7, 2014 07:52 AM

                                                                                                                                                              Oh sure, but the dishes you named -- which sounds like the menu at the Chutzpah deli in Fairfax, VA, which is really pretty good -- all come from the Eastern European traditions, and some, like potato pancakes, are exactly what our non-Jewish friends (LOL) ate in the old country as well.

                                                                                                                                                              Do any kids grow up learning to enjoy herring these days? We ate a lot of creamed herring, pickled herring, chopped herring (probably what you call herring salad)....

                                                                                                                                                              1. re: Bob W
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                                                                                                                                                                butterfly Feb 7, 2014 12:28 PM

                                                                                                                                                                They do in Spain… My son loves herring and pretty much every other permutation of pungent preserved fish. Herring was really prevalent in my house as a kid, too. Too prevalent for my tastes. It took me many years to reconsider it.

                                                                                                                                                            2. re: Bob W
                                                                                                                                                              bagelman01 Feb 7, 2014 08:05 AM

                                                                                                                                                              Thew other 'overarching' Jewish food is Challah, the Sabbath and Festival bread, reminder of the sacrifices in the Holy Temple, and named for the piece of raw dough taken and burnt (what was the Temple Priests' share) before the loves are formed and baked.

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                                                                                                                                                              JTPhilly Feb 7, 2014 07:53 AM

                                                                                                                                                              as a nomadic people Jews have constantly incorporated the culinary culture of the places they live into their own - thus yielding a great diversity of "Jewish Cuisine" world wide. - There is no one "Jewish Cuisine" there are many.

                                                                                                                                                              What is commonly known as Jewish-American food is largely an adaptation of cuisine brought to the United States by Eastern European Jews modified to the available food supply and existing culture in large American cities of the late 18th and early 20th century.

                                                                                                                                                              As with all immigrant cuisines it has taken on a life of its own and become something quite independent of its origins (like Italian-American food). As a native NYer it is part of what I would consider my "soul food" NYC Jewish deli is as American as spaghetti and meat balls, chop suey and loaded nachos. It is not however representative of the total of "Jewish Cuisine" but one element in a much larger, broader and richer history of Jewish foods.

                                                                                                                                                              8 Replies
                                                                                                                                                              1. re: JTPhilly
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                                                                                                                                                                sandylc Feb 7, 2014 09:52 AM

                                                                                                                                                                I like how you've put it. I've wanted to mention how food evolves and how Italian-American food is so unique, etc., but this has been a pretty hot thread, so I've been lurking instead.

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                                                                                                                                                                  DaisyM Feb 7, 2014 10:11 AM

                                                                                                                                                                  One of my favorite cookbooks is "Jewish Cooking in America". It has great recipe and includes lots of fascinating information about the history of Jewish cooking.

                                                                                                                                                                  I'm Jewish and loved reading about the history of my people through food. One thing is certain....we love to eat and our holidays and simchas (celebrations) food is extremely important and plentiful.

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                                                                                                                                                                    alwayshungrygal Feb 7, 2014 10:27 AM

                                                                                                                                                                    I've got that cookbook too, and I've made a few of those recipes and loved them. The brisket served to LBJ is a winner.

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                                                                                                                                                                      DaisyM Feb 7, 2014 10:41 AM

                                                                                                                                                                      At Passover it is fun to have more than one charoset. I love trying Sephardic recipes...they always seem more "exotic" than what I grew up with.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: DaisyM
                                                                                                                                                                        Bob W Feb 7, 2014 10:48 AM

                                                                                                                                                                        You should also check out Faye Levy's International Jewish Cookbook -- lots of "exotic" recipes!

                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: DaisyM
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                                                                                                                                                                      sandylc Feb 7, 2014 10:52 AM

                                                                                                                                                                      One of my favorite baking books is "Inside the Jewish Bakery".

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                                                                                                                                                                      Chowrin Feb 7, 2014 11:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                                      Oh, by all means!

                                                                                                                                                                    4. re: JTPhilly
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                                                                                                                                                                      JTPhilly Feb 7, 2014 12:15 PM

                                                                                                                                                                      typo late 19th

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                                                                                                                                                                      AdinaA Feb 7, 2014 11:22 AM

                                                                                                                                                                      Chiming in late, but there's an elephant in the room.

                                                                                                                                                                      While it is true that Jewish cuisine is a subset of the cuisine of the region in which a particular Jewish community lives, it is also true that every Jewish cuisine (Jewish Persian, Jewish Yemenite, Polish Jewish, etc.) is always distinctive because it is shaped by Jewish religious laws. Here are some ways that this shows up:

                                                                                                                                                                      1. Sabbath constraints have produced many dishes. One of the more intriguing is fish-and-chips, a dish as deeply British as Jews are. Battered, fried fish was invented by Jews because it can be cooked on Friday, left in the pantry overnight, and eaten for lunch on Saturday. This is an unusual constraint to operate under.

                                                                                                                                                                      2. Cooking fat: Northern European cooking is heavily butter oriented. Traditional Jews do not eat butter and meat at the same meal, let alone in the same dish. When you leave the butter out of a stolen you get a bubka. The two are similar, both are delicious, but one bite will tell you that they are not the same. When you leave butter out of the pan in which you fry your Wiener schnitzel, you have moved from the realm of German cuisine to Jewish German cuisine.

                                                                                                                                                                      3. Chefs in Vienna also fry their Wiener schnitzel in lard. In the German lands, as was true pretty much everywhere from Gibraltar to Tromso, lard was the dominant cooking oil (until the 20the century) and bacon was part of the fundamental flavor mix of most (many?) classic meat dishes. Jews may braise chicken in wine, but, without the lardons. it's not quite coq au vin.

                                                                                                                                                                      4. European Jews relied on chicken fat and goose fat to an extent unknown by their neighbors. The flavors are wonderful, I'll put my chicken-fat mashed potatoes up in a tast-taste contest against butter mashed potatoes any day, and back myself to win.

                                                                                                                                                                      I could go on, and it is true that within dar-al Islam, where pork was shunned and everyone cooked primarily with olive oil, the differences were less significant than the differences between Jewish and Christian cooking in Europe. And also true that with the introduction of shelf-stable, inexpensive vegetable oils (not to mention margarine) the differences between Jewish and non-Jewish cookery lessened.

                                                                                                                                                                      Nevertheless, there were and are real differences between the dishes mede by Jewish and non-Jewish cooks in every region. They add up, for example to a Judeo-Persian or a Polish cuisine, just as the differneces between Persian and Judeo Persian make Judeo Persian a language separate from Persian, and the differences between Yiddish and alten Hoch Deutsch add up to these being two separate languages.

                                                                                                                                                                      All borders are fuzzy, traditional east European cooking has a great deal in common with traditional Ashkenazi cooking, nevertheless, Ashkenazi cooking is (or was) a unique, distinctive cuisine.

                                                                                                                                                                      5 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: AdinaA
                                                                                                                                                                        prima Feb 7, 2014 11:28 AM

                                                                                                                                                                        Agree with much of what you've written, although I understand many Central and Eastern European Christians also traditionally relied on chicken, duck and goose fat to a great extent, especially those who kept their own chickens, ducks and geese. While I'm sure some Central and Eastern European Christians would have been using butter, pork fat or beef fat, some would have relied on schmaltz more than other oils/fats/drippings. It's still common to see schmaltz on the table in some parts of Central Europe.

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                                                                                                                                                                          AdinaA Feb 7, 2014 12:18 PM

                                                                                                                                                                          What neighbors shared in the way of cooking is always and everywhere most of what they cook and eat. My point was only that the differences dictated by the Sabbath and the kosher laws are sufficient to mark the Jewish cuisine of any region as a distinctive cuisine.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: AdinaA
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                                                                                                                                                                            DaisyM Feb 7, 2014 03:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                            That was a beautiful explanation! Shabbat Shalom!

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                                                                                                                                                                              DaisyM Feb 8, 2014 06:27 AM

                                                                                                                                                                              If any of you visit Philly, consider dining at Zahav. It is Israeli/Middle Eastern food that shows influences of different kinds of Jewish cuisines. Very creative and always wonderful.

                                                                                                                                                                        2. re: AdinaA
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                                                                                                                                                                          lagatta Feb 8, 2014 08:56 PM

                                                                                                                                                                          Wonderful summary, Adina.

                                                                                                                                                                          Prima, of course Christians of those countries (also remember that there are many Muslims in the Balkans) would have relied on those fats, but they COULD eat lard. Schmaltz simply means "fat" in German, and in (non-Jewish) German and Austrian cookbooks I have, would often be pork fat.

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                                                                                                                                                                          lagatta Feb 8, 2014 09:05 PM

                                                                                                                                                                          I'd like to recommend Claudia Rosen's magnum opus, The Book of Jewish Food: An Odyssey from Samarkand to New York http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21... It is a splendid work of social history as well as cookery. Ms Roden is of Egyptian origin, but the name Roden, which she uses professionally, is that of her Ashkenazi husband

                                                                                                                                                                          I bought the original 1968 edition of her Book of Middle Eastern Food at a charity shop here some years ago, for $2! Back then, as a student in London, she had a hard time sourcing even olive oil...

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