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Do you think that a guy should always pay for Dinner on the 1st date?

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I feel that most often us guys should/do pay the whole bill for at least the 1st date, but perhaps there could be exceptions here or there, right? I mean, what if the girl's the one that's calling you, desperate for a date & you finally decided to give her a chance, should you still pay for her in full? In another case, what if your boss asked if you'd take his daughter out, would you still pay for the date even though he's been a cheapskate to you…lol? Another case could be perhaps that the girl's quite rich & you're pretty much just getting by while working your a$s off at work, ya hear? Outside of most desperate girls, I still think that it's probably wise to just stick with buying her Dinner for the night. What is your take on this topic?

  1. Personally, I think whomever asks should pay the first date, and that men and women should be free and able to ask each other out, in either direction. So if the girl asks the guy, she picks up the tab. For first dates off of things like internet dating, it's much simpler if each person pays for their own food and drink - it's a getting to know each other meeting, rather than a romantic date at that point.

    I don't think there should be special rules based on whether you really like your date or are just tolerating him or her - "You're only a 5, and I only pick up the tab for 7 and above" kind of thing.

    In reality, in current society, it's a bit of a minefield, as different people have different preferences. Stepping outside of the guy asks/guy pays on the first date does potentially carry quite a penalty - if you ask a guy out, and he wonders why no-one is willing to ask you out, or sees you as too aggressive if you insist on paying. On the other hand, if you ask a woman out, and when the bill comes you sit back and wait, odds are high that there's not going to be a second date.

    The old system has it's problems too - when men earned money and women didn't much, it made sense for the guy to pay, but now it puts a disproportionate financial burden on the guy in the casual dating around phase (although the cost of making yourself pretty for dates adds up too). And it came with unpleasant expectations - don't order the steak unless you plan to put out, and the like.

    1 Reply
    1. re: tastesgoodwhatisit

      For when it really tells something of a person, I'd think that it was sexy &/or thoughtful to notice the other person asking to pay for everything no matter who you are. Times change, but true love/care in my opinion never will.

    2. I am male, and I have always paid for the first date, be it lunch, dinner, drinks, whatever. I would also venture to say that I pay 90% of the time, probably more often, on subsequent get-togethers. Generally, I pay unless my date insists on covering or contributing to the tab. I guess I do this because I think it chivalrous, it is a cultural more I grew up with, my disposable income allows me to, and money is a triviality when all I'm trying to do is get some drinks in my system, eat some good food, hang out and get laid.

      2 Replies
      1. re: MonMauler

        Sorry, but most of us who are worth actually spending time with aren't going to whore ourselves for the price of a meal that we could afford on our own.

        I didn't think there were still men who expected sex in return for dinner.

        I paid for a first date -- because it was his birthday, and because I offered the invitation. 22 years later, I'm still married to him. (He paid for lots of dates, too).

        1. re: sunshine842

          sunshine842, I didn't either!

          Sounds like the "3 date rule" someone told me about.

          Congratulations on 20+ years of marriage and that's a lot of meals.

        1. Only if she shows me her rack. (Sorry, couldn't resist.) Seriously, I always offer, twice. If she insists on splitting, I conclude she is not interested in me.

          4 Replies
          1. re: mwhitmore

            or maybe she's been out with MonMauler's kind, and doesn't want you to think that she can be bought for the price of a steak.

            1. re: sunshine842

              I never think that a person can be bought. But an inability to accept hospitality does not bode well.

              1. re: mwhitmore

                on *that*, I agree...but don't forget that her resistance may not be because she's incapable of accepting hospitality -- it may be a very different motivation.

                1. re: sunshine842

                  Fair enough. Nowadays it is sometimes difficult to determine if a social encounter *is* a date or first date. So you send signals. My offering to pay is a signal that I am interested. 'Let's split it', said more than once, I presume to be a 'Let's be friends' signal, so I won't push for a second date. But it is a 'rebuttable presumption' if, for example, she suggests another meeting.

          2. Great topic:)
            If I asked a man out I would offer to pay. If he let me pay without even a little back and forth banter, I would call him cheap! Lol
            My bosses daughter now... wouldn't even think of taking her out. That's got danger written all over it right? But if you must, pay the bill!

            5 Replies
            1. re: parkerjaxmollymo

              Yeah, it is quite something although not too surprising that that many people would've responded to my thread like this here. According to the bosses Daughter though, if she's hot & could talk her Daddy into perhaps giving me a bonus, then hell yeah, it'll be quite nice! If she's nasty though, I just might have to quit that job & leave town.

              1. re: ShowUsYourRack

                "If she's nasty though, I just might have to quit that job & leave town."

                Well, then let us all pray this misfortune doesn't happen. After all, I hear the employment market is pretty thin for people looking to work in contrived 1960's sitcom plots.

                Seriously? Boss's daughter?

                1. re: amishangst

                  Whatever needs to be done. I'm definitely not working just to have/carry another nasty, futile headache of a relationship. I'm definitely more responsible than that.

                  1. re: ShowUsYourRack

                    I cannot imagine a worse place to work than for someone who thinks that his daughter is such a waste of skin that he has to hope that one of his employees will take her out as brownnosing.

                    It's unethical, bad business, speaks poorly of the daughter and worse of the father -- run, don't walk.

                    1. re: sunshine842

                      A lot of Bosses (whether Fathers or not) are real dirt bags sometimes.

            2. Is there a generational gap going on here? In my dating years it was SOP that the guy paid but nine times out ten it was the guy asking too. Once you were "steady" it be came more Dutch treat, etc. In high school you would be labeled too forward if you asked a guy out. In college it was a little more acceptable, in my 20's it was becoming more common.

              However my nieces, some who are recent college grads and others a tad older don't think like that at all because most first dates aren't the formal/unique things they once were. In their world first dates are often "let's meet for coffee, pizza, go for a run". In cases of an invite to a higher end place they assume the person who asks is paying and it just as often could be them.

              7 Replies
              1. re: foodieX2

                I think so.

                Plus, if you're internet dating, you can go on a lot of first dates, and the cost adds up to quite a bit. The coffee date is quite strongly recommended for internet dating first meetings - it's in a safe public place (important for women with a guy you've never met in person), it's not too expensive and fairly short if you aren't enjoying it, and you don't have to worry about your date getting really drunk.

                1. re: tastesgoodwhatisit

                  I wasn't really talking about internet dating, but I know that a lot of people might do it, just not me. I find internet dating to quite often be defined by the 3 D's...Dangerous, Dirty & Distant. I guess you can often include Dull in that too...lol. Oh well. If that's what they wanna do then more power to them.

                  1. re: ShowUsYourRack

                    Most people I know use it as a tool to meet new people - you move to a new city for work, and it takes a year or two to really build up a social circle to the point that you are meeting potential partners through friends of friends or social events. The bar/club scene gets less useful as you get older (and is not very useful in the first place if you're the type of person who has a great personality but aren't really hot, or is shy, or doesn't drink/find drunk people attractive). Your work doesn't expose you to many single people of the right age and gender. Joining activities to meet people is useful, but can be low efficiency.

                    So you go online to get a list of people, look for ones that look interesting to you, and meet them for coffee to see if there's a spark on both sides.

                    Of course, the last time I tried on-line dating, I exclusively got responses from guys 20 years older than me, who lived on a different continent, and hadn't looked closely enough at my picture to notice that I wasn't even vaguely Asian, and definitely wasn't looking for a Western sugar daddy. So I married a co-worker. And on the first date, he bought dinner, I bought dessert.

                    1. re: tastesgoodwhatisit

                      Like I said before, I'm not into online dating. That's just not my thing to take a risk like that & then come out with who knows what. I like to actually see them (not get a pick of them on the computer whether real or not) & get to talk to/with them before the date. I just like to keep things real.

                      1. re: ShowUsYourRack

                        I actually know a number of couples who met online, and a couple others who met through singles ads.

                        1. re: sunshine842

                          Yeah - it's not for everyone, but it can work very well when used carefully.

                          Personally, I would prefer to meet people in face-to-face situations, but if I'm not finding people that way (you need a fairly large pool of eligible people for this to work well, at least for me) I'll take the internet over the bar scene any day.

                  2. re: tastesgoodwhatisit

                    Coffee, brunch or lunch is excellent for a first date. Especially if you are dating frequently and want to screen potential mates in or out :) I think someone started a business around lunch and dating.

                    This thread is making me happy I met SO and am not out there dating. BTW, our first date was dinner and he paid.

                2. Yes. Always. If you don't want to pay, don't go out. If you can't afford it, don't date.

                  7 Replies
                  1. re: jaykayen

                    So people who can't afford to pay shouldn't be allowed to try and have relationships?

                    1. re: Sirrith

                      It's pretty difficult to have a relationship if you can't afford to have dinner.

                      1. re: jaykayen

                        I think it would be pretty hard to have a relationship with someone who required being taken out to dinner as the basis of a the relationship.

                        1. re: foodieX2

                          Try to have a relationship without ever taking her (because we are talking about men and women) out for dinner. let me know what your success rate is.

                          1. re: jaykayen

                            Plenty of ways around that. My husband of 24 years and I didn't go out to dinner for the first 6 or so months of dating and it never occurred to me that we should. And we ate very well without doing so. You just need to be creative.

                            ETA - I just realized neither of us paid for that meal either. It was a gift from my dad. He did pay the tip tho.

                            1. re: jaykayen

                              If they've already ate, perhaps you could take them out to play &/or watch a game, right? Get her hot & sweaty...lol.

                          2. re: jaykayen

                            Suppose you're out on the dating scene and are doing a whole lot of casual dates to meet people - a few dates to see if there's interest and mutual interest. Say two nice dinners out a week, with drinks, for two people, with tax and tip at $50 per night if you're careful about where you go. $100 a week times 52 weeks is over $5000 a year. That's not a trivial amount of money for a lot of people. I know a fair number of married, financially stable people who can't afford that, even though will do the occasional night out.

                      2. Depends.

                        Who did the asking?

                        1. I don't go to dinner on my first date-
                          I am a young senior and believes the man always pays the bill

                          montmauler those days are gone forever--
                          no wonder I never remarried after my husband died many many years ago

                            1. re: small h

                              Well, what if they're both females...lol?

                                1. re: chartreauxx

                                  Yeah, but which girls quicker…lol?

                                  1. re: ShowUsYourRack

                                    this is why i always challenge a girl to a footrace before i will ask her out.

                                    1. re: chartreauxx

                                      What if she beats you though? Then you'll look like the fool in front of everyone else…lol.

                            2. No. In my experience that's what always happened but as a "rule" I think it's pretty stupid.

                              I once went on a date with a guy for dinner. He paid. Then we went for drinks. I went to pay. He tried to stop me and made it a big deal, like me paying for these $4 beers was a total affront to his manhood. Not hot, dude.

                              1. If the person you're out with on a date can't talk about money without some hiccup, make it the last date. Who pays in this day and age should be easy peasy conversation.

                                2 Replies
                                1. re: HillJ

                                  I agree. To me, usually the asker would pay or the bill would be split but it is a bad sign if you can't converse about it and come to an agreement. In my (not terribly recent) experience men who would accept some form of "let`s split it" were much more comfortable than those who insisted on paying.

                                  1. re: ErnieD

                                    Yeah, it wouldn't matter to me how the bill was paid during a date scenario. I'd expect those details would be worked out well before the bill arrived at some point during our date. For me, a person that is comfortable, smart and able to talk about something as common as how to pay the check would matter and certainly matter to any future dating.

                                    I think 99% of NAF threads all come down to communication, right?

                                2. Not unless you are cheap.....

                                  1. So wait, women who call/ask out men are "desperate for a date"?

                                    5 Replies
                                    1. re: LeoLioness

                                      From my experience....if they ask me out....yes.

                                      1. re: LeoLioness

                                        Yeah, that's weird. I asked my husband out on the first date. It seems to have worked out for me...

                                        1. re: Hobbert

                                          me, too -- if I'm expected to make my own choices regarding school, career, and where I live, why would I not be allowed to make a choice as to whom I would like to spend my time with?

                                          The man paying came from a time when women typically didn't work, or worked in positions that didn't pay a salary capable of affording a dinner out.

                                          Nowadays that's no longer relevant.

                                          1. re: sunshine842

                                            I agree. I'm so happy I'm with a guy who doesn't worry about proving himself to me. That's so exhausting!

                                        2. re: LeoLioness

                                          No, they don't have to be considered desperate all the time. Some girls simply ask guys out because it's very rare for them to get a date because of some details not found sexy or interesting, ya know?

                                          In another case, a girl could be someone that the guy works with or just one of his friends, yet he didn't realize how she really felt about him. Then it could get serious as in possibly getting tight as lovers, not just friends, ya see? In that case I wouldn't necessarily call her desperate, so...

                                        3. I'm old school, chivalry will always take a front seat and I will pay for a ladies dinner no matter what date it is.

                                          17 Replies
                                          1. re: treb

                                            What if she doesn't want you to?

                                            1. re: LeoLioness

                                              It's just me and the way I was taught and there are no obligations or I'll get it next time.

                                              1. re: treb

                                                Oh. I just find it ironic that your "chivalry" may trump what a woman actually wants.

                                                1. re: LeoLioness

                                                  I'm quite capable of choosing, if I were single, a date that wouldn't mind my request to pay, so I don't think I would be placed in that situation, thanks.

                                                  1. re: LeoLioness

                                                    If a woman rejects chivalry from any man....it's her problem, and not worth dating.

                                                    1. re: fourunder

                                                      I suspect women have different ideas of chivalry is. To me (a woman), chivalry is a man who respects my opinion, who values my input, and who doesn't get in a snit when I pay for dinner or investigate the bump in the night or don't otherwise conform to What a Woman Should Do.

                                                      1. re: Hobbert

                                                        Fair enough, but then there are obviously those (Women), who believe if a man doesn't pay.....they are cheap and not worth dating.

                                                        1. re: fourunder

                                                          Probably true for both sexes.

                                                          1. re: Hobbert

                                                            I wouldn't know about men....but you're probably correct.

                                                      2. re: fourunder

                                                        And oddly enough, she probably doesn't think she has a "problem".

                                                        1. re: LeoLioness

                                                          and she'll probably complain when the man doesn't hold the door open for her as well.....or pull out her chair or help her on with her coat.

                                                          1. re: fourunder

                                                            Just to be clear, we are still talking about an imaginary person, right?

                                                            1. re: LeoLioness

                                                              I've known a few myself....but this was just mindless banter on my part.

                                                2. re: treb

                                                  treb, it's not old school. In my book it's called being a gentleman.

                                                  It's about the gesture, not the $$.

                                                  I also appreciate having the door opened for me.

                                                  My SO treats me with the same respect.

                                                  1. re: financialdistrictresident

                                                    If a guy is slow or somewhat disabled he might have some trouble always getting to the door to help his lady out too, right?

                                                    1. re: ShowUsYourRack

                                                      What does that have to do with anything? Disabled is obviously a different category. People in general are very good about holding the door for someone in a wheelchair or such, much more so than for an able bodied woman. As the years go by, less and less men hold the door for me, hopefully it's just society in general and not a comment on myself!

                                                      I was just watching an old movie (1970s haha) and realized I haven't seen a gentleman stand up when I leave the table in a restaurant since about that time. A sure way to impress, at least to me, all you men out there!

                                                      1. re: coll

                                                        No kidding and, GEE, it doesn't cost a thing! ;)

                                                  1. One of the reasons my husband fell for me was that on our first dates, I gently insisted he at least let me leave the tip.

                                                    That's how I rolled 25 years ago!

                                                    1. We all hear you loud and clear.

                                                      1. I don't know. I'm an educated, professional independent woman. And I love that my (now) SO insisted on paying on our first dates. He still does, but I reciprocate by cooking meals he loves. He also stands up when I leave the table, opens every doors, and walks on the curb side of the street. I find these chivalrous gestures lovely. JMHO

                                                        Maybe it seems sexist. And as a generational point of reference, we are 40.

                                                        1. It's really interesting to read everyone's take on this subject.

                                                          I'm a single mom on a pretty tight budget. Occasionally I venture into online dating, and most of the time, the guy pays - although, most of the time, we are meeting for the first time just for coffee (my preference).

                                                          One particular first meeting (I don't really consider these first meetings "dates" since we haven't met each other yet) was w/ a guy who suggested we meet for lunch, and he suggested the restaurant. Like I said, my preference is to meet at a Starbucks for this type of thing, but I figured heck, why not, maybe I will get a nice lunch out of it (I don't get out much!). When the bill came, I asked him what my portion was, like I normally do - to be polite, and b/c I think it's the right thing to do. What did he do? He told me what my portion of the bill was. I was pretty surprised to say the least. I wasn't planning to spend $20 on lunch, and there were plenty of other things I could have spent that $20 on.

                                                          And that has me wondering - was it my fault for asking what my portion was? Should I not even do that and just let them take care of it? I don't want to get into this situation again, and I won't maybe always want to meet at Starbucks for a first meet.

                                                          64 Replies
                                                          1. re: HeyImBack

                                                            And that has me wondering - was it my fault for asking what my portion was? Should I not even do that and just let them take care of it? I don't want to get into this situation again, and I won't maybe always want to meet at Starbucks for a first meet

                                                            You can thank your sistren....equal rights and etc....as noted above by others... Now that women work they should expect thing to be equal....

                                                                1. re: LeoLioness

                                                                  apparently, you missed the part...as noted above by others

                                                                  Ask them.

                                                                  1. re: fourunder

                                                                    Ask them what forun? I'm not following you.

                                                                    1. re: HillJ

                                                                      What was that time when "women" didn't work, exactly?

                                                                      The old system has it's problems too - when men earned money and women didn't much

                                                                      1. re: fourunder

                                                                        In the late '60s after graduating from College-there were only a few women who worked outside their home.
                                                                        Even fewer returned to work after having a baby.
                                                                        Women married at earlier ages- I was considered old at 24 when I married.

                                                                        1. re: jpr54_1

                                                                          the point that fourunder is making (I think) is that women have always worked...it's just been in the last 70 years or so that it's been in return for a paycheck.

                                                                          Your mom certainly worked...she just wasn't on anybody's payroll.

                                                                          1. re: sunshine842

                                                                            Plenty of women worked outside the home too, for pay. Poor/working class people have generally never had the luxury of not working.

                                                                            (My mother and grandmother both had jobs for most of their adult lives)

                                                                            1. re: sunshine842

                                                                              It wasn't my thought, but just indicating what another poster had made....but you have accurately pointed out the what has indeed been true and which I can certainly agree with.

                                                                              Thanks for the defense.

                                                                          2. re: fourunder

                                                                            Different times to some degree. Women who didn't earn much would have been (in my day) women who still lived with their parents, woman who just started working or widows with children and limited income.

                                                                            I wouldn't have called it a problem back then, just a different time. We also didn't have internet dating, speed dating, cars at the drop of a hat, Starbucks meetups or discussions like this to fall back on.

                                                                            1. re: HillJ

                                                                              Different times to be sure.
                                                                              This is only an issue with heterosexual dates.

                                                                              Same sex dating has a PC "norm" as well, though. Whoever "asks" for the date, offers to pay the entire bill. The other person, typically offers to chip in(in some way). If the offer is accepted, no big deal-the bill is split. If the offer to chip in is declined, the issue is not pressed, the "asker" pays the entire bill, and if there is to be a second date, it is expected that the other person pays for that one.
                                                                              Not very difficult when you take the gender roles out of it.

                                                                              1. re: sedimental

                                                                                Now I'm learning something new. No kidding. Same sex dating has its own handbook? Why the difference?

                                                                                1. re: HillJ

                                                                                  I think it is just not having gender roles in the mix. It is expected to be completely "equal" from the get go. However, it is totally acceptable to offer and accept that someone wants to treat you to an entire evening of food and drink. It is just expected that if there is a date number two....you should treat too.

                                                                                  1. re: sedimental

                                                                                    Hmm, that's really interesting. So, without a gender bias in the mix, the formality of preparing for a date changes?

                                                                                    1. re: HillJ

                                                                                      The one that is "calling the shots" is the asker. Doesn't matter the gender. Good manners is to allow the "asker" to be the "host" (if you will). It is polite to offer to contribute of course, but not a faux pas-either way- if your offer is declined. Same sex dating doesn't include wrestling or arguing over the dinner bill. No offense is taken one way or the other. It might be nice if you offered to pay for coffee or drinks after the date, etc. but, if not then it would be good manners to take a turn and pay for the second date.

                                                                                      1. re: sedimental

                                                                                        I see no reason (other than pride, habit or fear) why this style of dating can't also work out smoothly for men & woman. Communication when you're dating should be simple no matter gender.

                                                                                        Very interesting, sed. I learned something new tonight. :)

                                                                                        1. re: HillJ

                                                                                          When asking a question about gender, the best answer sometimes comes when you remove gender from the equation...

                                                                                          1. re: sandylc

                                                                                            If you mean, why can't we all just act like adults then I'm on board with that.

                                                                                            Because I really do struggle with understanding how situations like this (and dozens of others) are really so hard for people.

                                                                                            You go on a date, the bill comes, you work out the bill, you leave. What am I missing?

                                                                                            1. re: HillJ

                                                                                              I think you've nailed it pretty well!

                                                                                              If people can't handle the check, maybe negotiating an entire relationship is completely off the table!

                                                                                2. re: sedimental

                                                                                  It also changes when they "have" their own children too, right...lol?

                                                                      2. re: fourunder

                                                                        I do expect 'things' to be communicated well and hopefully mutual. Mutual doesn't always work out but lack of communication over such minor things like a food bill should be simple to talk about.

                                                                        1. re: HillJ

                                                                          All this talk about paying the check while dating, chivalry, communication, respect and etc....it's all nice and PC (which , by the way, I do not believe in)...but the simple truth is...

                                                                          I know within 30 seconds if I want to spend another time with the person I meet...and I'm sure it's exactly the same for the women/lady.

                                                                          1. re: fourunder

                                                                            that doesn't say too much about you

                                                                            1. re: jpr54_1

                                                                              What does it say about them...you know, the ones who have the back up cell phone call...

                                                                                1. re: foodieX2

                                                                                  Not allowing the 30 seconds to kick in....and leaving with a ridiculous excuse when the phone rings for some fake emergency.

                                                                            2. re: fourunder

                                                                              but what does that tell about who pays?

                                                                              1. re: foodieX2

                                                                                I have no problem paying for dates...good or bad. I'm one of those Neanderthals others are describing.

                                                                                1. re: fourunder

                                                                                  < I'm one of those Neanderthals others are describing.>

                                                                                  In all honesty, real Neanderthal men did not pay for their women on the first dates.

                                                                                  1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                                                                    Neanderthals are extinct. Probably because the women killed off the men.

                                                                                    1. re: sandylc

                                                                                      sadly, they're not extinct. Less common than in years past, but sadly still around.

                                                                                      1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                        I guess the women still have some more work to do...

                                                                                        : 0)

                                                                              2. re: fourunder

                                                                                I'm sure that's true (I mean the 30 sec part), forur. I'm not taking issue with the point you're trying to make. I agree, times have changed dramatically when it comes to dating. I just firmly believe that most of these situations occur from a lack of communication in the first place. I mean come on, money is an important topic to work out with someone you're dating. If you can't (and I mean generally speaking) discuss the food bill when it arrives, what gives? Personally, I would be more turned off by the lack of communication during the date, or even when planning the date, then I would be paying the bill.

                                                                                So whether we're talking dating in the 50's or dating in 2014 the one thing that hasn't changed is people still struggle to say what they want!!

                                                                                1. re: HillJ

                                                                                  With regards to money....I know a few women who would not consider anyone unless they could provide for them in the lifestyle they feel they deserve.....and I do agree with the point of communication as being very important.

                                                                                  1. re: fourunder

                                                                                    lifestyle they feel they deserve
                                                                                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                                                                    I think we all know folks that believe someone else should do the providing. Not something I subscribe to but life is full of all kinds of people. Dating is all about choice.

                                                                                    1. re: HillJ

                                                                                      "...folks that believe someone else should do the providing..." Especially poignant these days - Don't share my wealth, share my work ethic

                                                                                      1. re: BiscuitBoy

                                                                                        It's a shame that too many people feel like it's more of a need/priority to get everything paid for by someone else especially for females.

                                                                          2. re: HeyImBack

                                                                            your first mistake was thinking hey, maybe I'll get a nice lunch out of it.

                                                                            That pretty clearly says you weren't very interested in the guy, but you were totally okay with letting him buy you a nice lunch.

                                                                            much as I'm all for women paying their share -- it was a mutually agreed meeting place, with no clear invitation -- so yeah, you were wrong to assume that you shouldn't have to pick up your portion.

                                                                            1. re: HeyImBack

                                                                              That one makes me awfully twitchy. I'm not comfortable with the idea that there's a universally expected payer based on who has what naughty bits, plus as a woman I want my words to be heard and respected. If I offer to pay part or all of the bill, I expect and want to. I don't want any "don't worry your pretty little head about it," which is essentially what you're saying your date should have done. Sorry to consign you to a life of Starbucks, but what you're asking for here, to essentially be paid for your company by someone who may well be just as broke as you, isn't reasonable.

                                                                              1. re: HeyImBack

                                                                                <I'm a single mom on a pretty tight budget>

                                                                                Maybe you should make that known... You know. Say that you rather go to Starbuck (as you said) because you are on a tight budget. If he still insists meeting for lunch, then I think it implies that he is willing to pay for your meal.

                                                                                <What did he do? He told me what my portion of the bill was.>

                                                                                In other words, most of the time the guys have picked up the tabs even you have asked for your portions, right? (otherwise, you won't be surprised at all).

                                                                                To be honest, if you don't want to pay, then you shouldn't ask. We (males) are not mind readers. We sometime really think you want to pay -- go Dutch.

                                                                                < When the bill came, I asked him what my portion was, like I normally do - to be polite, and b/c I think it's the right thing to do.>

                                                                                I understand why you said you want to be polite. I don't understand why you said "it's the right thing to do". If you really think it is the right thing to pay your share, then why were you disappointed? Or do you mean it is the right thing to be polite and ask?

                                                                                <was it my fault for asking what my portion was?>

                                                                                I won't say that it is your fault, but it is certainly not his fault. If you are really on a tight budget, then let him knows ahead. I am sure you and your future potential date can work these things.

                                                                                Best wishes.

                                                                                1. re: HeyImBack

                                                                                  I'm having trouble understanding this. The "situation" was that you paid for the lunch you agreed to, consumed and asked the price of? I'd saya way to avoid this in the future is don't go on dates just to get fed?

                                                                                  1. re: HeyImBack

                                                                                    I doubt he asked you for a second date?
                                                                                    if he was a gentleman he would have paid the bill in its entirety.
                                                                                    you were not wrong in asking-that was the right thing to do-
                                                                                    next time only ask if you can leave the tip.

                                                                                    1. re: jpr54_1

                                                                                      why was he obligated to pay the bill? It was a first meeting, not a date, mutually agreed upon, and not specifically an invitation.

                                                                                      why should she only contribute to the tip? Why should she contribute only the 15-20% of the total.?

                                                                                      What if he's a single dad with no more free cash than she's got?

                                                                                      What if he was hoping SHE'D pick up the check?

                                                                                      1. re: jpr54_1

                                                                                        Ignoring a woman's explicitly stated desire isn't terribly gentlemanly in my book.

                                                                                        1. re: jpr54_1

                                                                                          I'm watching the Twilight Zone, but reading this, I feel like I'm in it, too.

                                                                                          1. re: jpr54_1

                                                                                            if he was a gentleman he would have paid the bill in its entirety.

                                                                                            Based on your comments above to me...if that's your opinion, what does that say about you? you clearly expect not to pay is acceptable.

                                                                                            1. re: fourunder

                                                                                              yes that is what I am saying about FIRST date
                                                                                              times have definitely changed

                                                                                              1. re: jpr54_1

                                                                                                even if it was mutually arranged? What if you extended the invitation?

                                                                                                1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                  yes
                                                                                                  what do u mean by if I extended the invitation-
                                                                                                  I would never initiate asking someone out on a date.

                                                                                                  1. re: jpr54_1

                                                                                                    many of the women on this thread wouldn't (and haven't) hesitated to do the asking.

                                                                                                    If you do the asking, you do the paying.

                                                                                          2. re: HeyImBack

                                                                                            I suppose I would have considered what the bill could be before I met somewhere other than Starbucks (your comfortable choice). Then, I would have decided if I was prepared to pay half or suggested another place. Because, as it appears, you left yourself open to a larger tab than you anticipated. And, since you and your date didn't discuss money beforehand or during the meal, you really left yourself open to an issue. I'm assuming you had the money to pay half in the moment but (again) it sounds like you didn't feel it was money well spent.

                                                                                            1. re: HeyImBack

                                                                                              I haven't read this whole thread, but the topic of equal rights has come up. Should everything be equal between a man and woman? Yes, of course, but it's not. Men have many advantages in the dating world that I feel woman do not. Lots of double standards going around as far as sex, etc. a man can sleep with however many women he wants and he's a stud, a woman does it and we know what people ca her. My point being, the paying for the bill thing on the first date, is a small perk that us woman can enjoy.

                                                                                              I've offered to pay my portion before and been taken up on my offer in the past, just like HeyImBack, and I no longer offer. If its being set up like a date and he asked me out, then he should expect to pay. I'm always financially prepared to pay my portion, but I won't make it easy for him by offering anymore. Any guy who would take you up on your offer of paying probably isn't much into you anyways, but sorry, that's the price of playing poker. I'm pretty disappointed when I sleep with a guy who I've been seeing awhile, claims he likes me, then it never ends up going anywhere. But hey, all is fair in love and war is what they say.

                                                                                              Just to be clear, though, I'm not above paying and I'm certainly not about a guy paying every time. I just treated a guy to lunch I like last week. I'm just saying this for the first date.

                                                                                              1. re: SaraAshley

                                                                                                <Any guy who would take you up on your offer of paying probably isn't much into you anyways, >

                                                                                                Com'on.

                                                                                                <that's the price of playing poker>

                                                                                                What are you talking about?

                                                                                                <I'm pretty disappointed when I sleep with a guy who I've been seeing awhile, claims he likes me, then it never ends up going anywhere>

                                                                                                That has nothing to do with paying the dinner. Two unrelated topics. Why mixed them together? It is not like one correlates with another. You might as well talking about a guy does not take shower everyday.

                                                                                                1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                                                                                  Yes it does. I'm sure most guys into his date would be happy to pay, and would not allow her to pay when she offered. I'm guessing the reason most guys would take a girl up on her offering to pay would (and especially in an online dating setting where you haven't ever met in person yet) is because the guy has realized he's not into you. I'm comparing the two because he's already asked you out, unfortunately he's not into and doesn't have to ever ask you out again, but he should follow through on the date he already set up and pay. He may be disappointed he's paying for a date for a girl he has no interest in seeing again, but disappointment happens on both sides.

                                                                                                  1. re: SaraAshley

                                                                                                    <I'm sure most guys into his date would be happy to pay....>

                                                                                                    Yes.

                                                                                                    <I'm guessing the reason most guys would take a girl up on her offering to pay would (and especially in an online dating setting where you haven't ever met in person yet) is because the guy has realized he's not into you.>

                                                                                                    I cannot speak for others, but if I am not interested seeing the woman for a second date, then it actually gives me more incentives to pay for dinner because, in my mind, I want this to be the end of it. I want to feel like I don't own her anything after I walk out of the restaurant.

                                                                                                    Forget about dating. Let's just say you are hanging out with an old female friend of yours. If she is leaving US for good, don't you want to pay for her dinner? Whereas if you know you will see her next week, then you won't mind she pay for this round of dinner, right?

                                                                                                2. re: SaraAshley

                                                                                                  "I'm pretty disappointed when I sleep with a guy who I've been seeing awhile, claims he likes me, then it never ends up going anywhere."

                                                                                                  Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free, is a saying that seems quite fitting for this situation :-D

                                                                                                  1. re: linguafood

                                                                                                    The way I hear it is: "You don't have to buy the whole pig for a little bit of sausage!"

                                                                                                    1. re: linguafood

                                                                                                      Some people prefer the meat alone...lol!

                                                                                                      1. re: linguafood

                                                                                                        I have never understood this saying. Milk is not free, but I don't know anyone who owns a cow. How about: "Why buy a cow when you can pick up a half-gallon at Safeway for a couple bucks"?

                                                                                                    2. re: HeyImBack

                                                                                                      Don't ask questions you don't really want the answer to and don't write checks you can't cash.

                                                                                                      Asking how much your portion "just to be polite" sounds more like a passive-aggressive litmus test on your part. He passes if he takes the lead and pays for the whole check, he fails if he actually does what you ask of him. Say what you mean and mean what you say. Sounds trite, but it's true. If you don't bother to adequately communicate things beforehand, you don't have anyone to blame except yourself for things not meeting your expectations.

                                                                                                      You had several options.
                                                                                                      a) Suggest due to budget or time constraints that coffee really would be better this time, but you would take a raincheck on lunch,
                                                                                                      b) Suggest a restaurant in your budget,
                                                                                                      c) Be frank and bring up who pays for what from the get go so there's no surprises (awkward? Perhaps, but better than being caught without enough money),
                                                                                                      d) Don't say things you don't actually mean (like asking how much it is under the guise of being polite) and take your cues from how he reacts to the bill if you don't discuss payment beforehand, or
                                                                                                      e) Don't go on "meetings" you can't afford (a meeting, to me, suggests going dutch - a date, to me, implies one person treating, usually the person who does the asking, but an old fashioned part of me believes the man should pay in most situations unless otherwise decided beforehand).

                                                                                                      Ultimately, it was passive-aggressive game playing. You even said you thought you'd get a nice lunch out of it - you went into it with no intention of paying. For all we know, he fully intended to pick up the check until you asked. I personally think it's a bit gauche to banter back and forth in public about who will pay for what and perhaps he wanted to avoid that and respect what he thought were your wishes to pay for your own. All he did was answer your question.

                                                                                                      1. re: HeyImBack

                                                                                                        <This was a reply to HeyImBack>

                                                                                                        He may have paid the whole bill if you hadn't asked what your portion was (and IMO, he asked you out and suggested a restaurant, so he should've paid anyway). However, by asking, you showed a desire -whether actual or not- to pay for your portion, and as far as he knows, that's what you wanted to do, so he went with what you suggested without making a fuss (although, as I said, he still should've at least made a little fuss since HE suggested a restaurant).
                                                                                                        May I suggest joining a Meetup group based around your interests? That way you can meet someone else that already shares an interest with you, and can get to know them in one or more "non-date" situations before you actually start dating?

                                                                                                        1. re: HeyImBack

                                                                                                          HeylmBack, I consider going out for coffee or lunch a first date.

                                                                                                          I would not have asked or offered to pay. He planned the date and had the pleasure of your company.

                                                                                                          Just curious, did he ask for a second date?

                                                                                                        2. It also matters what you want.

                                                                                                          I won't insist too hard on going Dutch on a first date - as other posters have said, it can be seen as a sign that you don't see it as a date. But a guy who won't let me reciprocate (he buys dinner, I buy drinks), or treat on the second date gets dropped.

                                                                                                          He might be a really nice guy, but I'm only interested in relationships that are egalitarian and not strongly tied to traditional gender roles. A guy who insists on classic gender roles is not one I'm interested in. For other women, it can be the complete opposite.

                                                                                                          1. Okay, this whole thing is a little fraught. If some man asks me out, I generally would expect to be a guest. And vice versa. Except that modernity being what it is, sometimes we might be barely acquainted, set up by friends, met online, etc, so even as the invitee I am always prepared and willing to pay for my share. Since it's really just a "meeting", and if we are mutually ill-advised enough to choose a meal instead of a coffee or beer, well, damages should be limited.

                                                                                                            That said, I have endured a few unfortunate dates which ended with me having to come up with more money (since the half I ponied up promptly did not evidently cover my slightly more expensive lunch) and have had the bill unexpectedly handed to me on more than one occasion by my host. In each case I paid the toll and escaped as fast as possible. In each case I feel pretty sure that mine host did not wish to socialize with me again, and the feeling at that point was mutual.

                                                                                                            Although one of the bill-hander-overers did actually email me a couple of days later, inviting me over to his home to "watch tv" on the following Saturday evening. :/ I was afraid he would charge me, so did not respond.

                                                                                                            3 Replies
                                                                                                            1. re: Teague

                                                                                                              I wouldn't be sharing an Email with someone new. That's almost like posting your full name, address & phone number(s) in the Forums such as these that you discuss in. Just too personal if you haven't been together/intimate for a while. If somebody wanted to give their Email out to their date, then they better be ready for any problems that may arise.

                                                                                                              1. re: ShowUsYourRack

                                                                                                                are you serious?

                                                                                                                It's far too easy to obtain multiple email addresses --- the one I use for this forum isn't my personal email, and if you believe the personal details registered there, well, I have a bridge to sell you.

                                                                                                                1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                  Yes I'm serious & sure as hell confident in my stance!

                                                                                                            2. I think that whoever invites someone to a dinner at a restaurant, whether male or female, should at least offer to pay the bill. Who ends up actually paying the bill may be a completely different question.

                                                                                                              There is a whole lot of good-will associated with picking up a restaurant check and a lot of downside not offering to chip in and coming across as a cheapskate (which might not get you laid on a first date). Here are two anecdotes regarding picking up a check:

                                                                                                              1. Partying with a bunch of people in San Francisco on a Friday night, one of the people in the party knew a reasonably well-known Los Angeles lawyer (with clients including Michael Jackson) who happened to be in town. She called him to invite him to join us and he did. The entire party ended up having dinner at an expensive restaurant downtown. There were probably 10-15 of us and they gave us our own private dining room. When the check came, the lawyer, who had never met more than one or two people in the crowd, immediately stretched out for it proclaiming "I'll get it" in such an authoritative way that nobody in the crowd piped up with the standard offers to chip in. He paid for everyone's dinner in like a split second like it was the most natural thing to do and it came across as very classy.

                                                                                                              2. I know a guy who used to be one of the top executives at one of the nation's best-known banks and probably being compensated very well. At a small social dinner, he was in the bathroom when the check arrived and I picked it up. When he learned that he didn't get to pay, he got quite upset.

                                                                                                              Bottom line: Sometimes people have a desire to pay rather than avoiding to do so.

                                                                                                              5 Replies
                                                                                                              1. re: nocharge

                                                                                                                Some people (even family quite a bit) will often pay behind someone's back. Usually the Restaurant won't care who pays the bill as long as it's paid, ya know? It's nice to have family, friends, partners, etc… help out though, right?

                                                                                                                1. re: nocharge

                                                                                                                  >>When he learned that he didn't get to pay, he got quite upset.

                                                                                                                  Guy #2 could do with using some of that executive salary to buy himself some manners. Is he not familiar with the phrase "thank you"?

                                                                                                                  1. re: Daisy.G

                                                                                                                    I think picking up the check was a way for him to signal that he was an alpha male. He was used to doing that and I deprived him of that opportunity. Besides, much of his dining had some form of business component in which case he would just expense the cost to Morgan Stanley.

                                                                                                                    1. re: nocharge

                                                                                                                      I would just offer to pay so I could rack up points on my Chase card.

                                                                                                                      1. re: cstr

                                                                                                                        In the case of the Morgan Stanley guy, it would have been a Discover Card. Morgan owned DC at the time and that was their corporate credit card.

                                                                                                                2. -Dude should pay...if asked out by the lady, he should still offer to pay, or at least half. The chic is rich? So what, show a little character. No matter how much ladies claim to want to burp and fart like men, or how much oprah they watch, they still expect and respect some old fashioned values in men (though they'd never admit it)

                                                                                                                  -Boss's daughter? Only happens in the movies, and don't take her to JackRabbit Slim's

                                                                                                                  4 Replies
                                                                                                                  1. re: BiscuitBoy

                                                                                                                    Like the burping and farting, I'd also add spitting and scratching body parts..

                                                                                                                    1. re: treb

                                                                                                                      I wouldn't mind seeing it

                                                                                                                      1. re: treb

                                                                                                                        Only if they're at a Baseball Game though, right...lol?

                                                                                                                      2. re: BiscuitBoy

                                                                                                                        This may be your best post ever.....and I may have to hit the recommend box....

                                                                                                                      3. First date or not, I always offered to pay for my portion and it had nothing to do with whether I liked the guy or not.

                                                                                                                        3 Replies
                                                                                                                        1. re: Monica

                                                                                                                          <I always offered to pay for my portion >

                                                                                                                          Yes, but would you actually pay for it? As another poster has pointed out. Sometime this is merely a gesture:

                                                                                                                          http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/9297...

                                                                                                                          1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                                                                                                            Of course and I have many times. Maybe it's the NY thing or maybe it's the guys I had dated but a lot of them seemed to be ok when I offered to pay and I was glad they said ok..because why would I want a free meal from a stranger? There are ones that insisted on paying for the whole thing but I always asked again to see if I can cover the tip at least. and if the guy did pay for the whole thing and we had a second date, I tried to pay for the whole meal.

                                                                                                                            1. re: Monica

                                                                                                                              It would be pretty interesting if this old fashioned "rule" didn't apply so much still to this day about the guy always having to pay for (at least) the 1st date. What if each person paid for their own meal? Countering that, what if the guy paid for the girls meal while the girl paid for the guys meal? If would tell a lot about each person & be more of an interesting date overall in my opinion.

                                                                                                                        2. As a happily married woman, who has dined solo as of late and witnessed internet dining/dating.....if my husband should pass, I will learn to live alone. The few clearly apparent internet dates I've witnessed were horrifying. Heck, I was only sitting beside them, and I was uncomfortable with the interview banter.

                                                                                                                          2 Replies
                                                                                                                          1. re: Bellachefa

                                                                                                                            Oh boy! That's a whole other can of worms! A friend of mine recently had a date from one of those, fairly pricy, we'll match you with the perfect person websites show up in a coat and boots. Just the coat and boots. She slammed the door and didn't want to know if he would have picked up the check.

                                                                                                                            1. re: Bellachefa

                                                                                                                              I'm coming up on 60 years of age and happily married too. But I would love to hear a blow by blow account of what goes on at the next table concerning Internet dating. What can I say. I like to live vicariously through others:-)

                                                                                                                            2. I'm a woman and if I asked a guy out I would expect to pay, but I think I'm in the minority. I think some women do everything they can to get a man to ask them out but don't feel like they were the ones who actually asked the question and expect the man to pay. You need to figure out what kind of girl you are asking!

                                                                                                                              If a woman does come right out and ask you to dinner, when the check comes the guy should at least offer to pay "I'll take care of this" as he moves for the check. If she let's him pay without saying anything she's a gold digger, don't go out with her again! She should object and say "no, I asked you out" and pay. Unless of course he is the kind of guy that can't let a woman pay and the back and forth goes on too long. Let him pay but dump him, he's too controlling! ;-)

                                                                                                                              5 Replies
                                                                                                                              1. re: Jpan99

                                                                                                                                I think there is a generational gap that makes what you have said true for today....but not for the older set. The older guys like me were brought up to pay....always.....it's not about control. This would apply to any first or subsequent dates....or meet-up with friends.

                                                                                                                                1. re: fourunder

                                                                                                                                  Actually, I am old! In my 50s. I've always been uncomfortable with the guy expecting to pay. Probably one of the reasons I never did marry! Too independent! ;-)

                                                                                                                                2. re: Jpan99

                                                                                                                                  <You need to figure out what kind of girl you are asking!>

                                                                                                                                  But I thought that was the whole point of a first date -- figuring out.

                                                                                                                                  1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                                                                                                                    Nah, you have to size 'em up before you ask them out!

                                                                                                                                    1. re: Jpan99

                                                                                                                                      <you have to size 'em up>

                                                                                                                                      ha ha ha. I have an image of a wolf sizing up the buffalo. Sorry. I love animals.

                                                                                                                                      http://www.lovethesepics.com/wp-conte...

                                                                                                                                3. If the guy has class, he pays, or at least strongly offers to pay. Some women, however, may think that allowing him to pay lessens their "womanhood." Too many women's studies classes I suspect.

                                                                                                                                  1. Back in the day, in between wives, I did a lot of first dates. I always presumed that I would pay. Most of the women assumed I would pay. It seemed to be the accepted way of doing things.
                                                                                                                                    There were a few women who gave notice beforehand that we would go "Dutch." That was fine by me and I did not push the issue.
                                                                                                                                    I never had a sense that I was paying for more than dinner.
                                                                                                                                    There were lots of first dates. Not so many second dates.
                                                                                                                                    I am a very social person and made the best of dating. My motto was: "It's either a good time or a good story!"

                                                                                                                                    1. I am the kind of gal who is never brave enough to ask a guy out. I think the guy should pay regardless, but if he doesn't, I wouldn't rule him out either. I say that because my husband always split the bill with me (since the first date!).

                                                                                                                                      I guess some guys are just clueless, and are not even aware that some girls would expect them to pay for the 1st date.

                                                                                                                                      I sometimes tell my husband (jokingly) that in my culture, the man is supposed to pay. He replies, yeah I will pay. Then he pulls out our joint card... I don't mind though, LOL.

                                                                                                                                      7 Replies
                                                                                                                                      1. re: CookieCookies

                                                                                                                                        One long time female friend has a hard and fast rule for first dates. She offers to split the bill and is ok with going "Dutch" but never insists.
                                                                                                                                        BUT: After the main meal is over the guy has no interest in sharing dessert (preferably chocolate cake) that is a deal breaker. She says there is something very intimate about sharing dessert. Go figure? She's still single.

                                                                                                                                        1. re: Motosport

                                                                                                                                          I honestly think some people "read" too much into something. Some people will extrapolate too much in my opinion.

                                                                                                                                          <She says there is something very intimate about sharing dessert.>

                                                                                                                                          Maybe. Certainly, I am in no position to tell her what is intimate and what is not intimate. What I will say is that plenty happy couples have gotten married, have kids, grow old....etc without having the need to share their first dessert.

                                                                                                                                          Just trying to put some perspectives.

                                                                                                                                          1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                                                                                                                            If I have to eat a little cake to be intimate.....who am I to argue...

                                                                                                                                            1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                                                                                                                              Without trying to read too much into it my best guess is that sharing/having dessert would give the message of: "I don't want this evening to end right now."

                                                                                                                                              1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                                                                                                                                Besides, what if he's on a restricted diet?

                                                                                                                                              2. re: Motosport

                                                                                                                                                Yeah, that does kind of sound sexy...sharing your dessert with your partner. I think you need to get to know them just a little more though. The 1st date (no matter who you're with) just doesn't seem like the place for that. I remember hearing about all the times back when people used to share Shakes with each other instead of almost going to get Coffee all the time. I don't think that Coffee is the best place to start even if there's a "refreshing" atmosphere in there, ya know?

                                                                                                                                            2. It saddens me how it seems to some, there's a "balance sheet" somewhere, tallying who paid for what and when with what frequency.

                                                                                                                                              First dates aside, who pays for what ongoing in this day and age? Not sure there's a hard and fast rule anymore. Yeah, sure, all things equal, let's take care of one another if we're in a relationship. You pay/I pay, alternate, fine. Maybe I don't work and you do and you want to treat me. Boy, this happened a lot when I wasn't working and couldn't have picked up the check if I wanted to. So grateful I had real friends who never kept a balance sheet or dropped me because I couldn't pay. They knew. They got it. And when I got back on my feet and back to work, I tried to return their many kindnesses as best I could.

                                                                                                                                              Maybe someone cooks for you often and you can't reciprocate--so maybe you pick up the bill as a "thank you." Maybe you cook for someone and they look after you in other ways--repairs around the house or yard, or maybe they're even just a good listener. I have a neighbor who ALWAYS notices when I'm knee deep in snow, trying to dig out--and heads out with her shovel to help me. I have no balance sheet with this lady. She's just a good friend and neighbor.

                                                                                                                                              Done right, no one tallies their way through life. It's about taking care of one another, respecting one another--occasional surprises are nice, too. Does no one remember the song about the "magic penny"--lend it, spend it, give it away, it all comes back to you.

                                                                                                                                              1 Reply
                                                                                                                                              1. re: kattyeyes

                                                                                                                                                My Mom is gone now but she had this saying: sharing is caring. She used that line when us kids would argue over 'things' as children, she used it when we had arguments with friends, she used it to describe extended family. And, when we all started dating and marrying she most certainly used the line then.

                                                                                                                                                If you can't find a partner in life, you either can't share or you don't want to. That's your right. But if you can't share the dinner check on a date without some kind of issue in play, take that as a quick peek inside a long term relationship.

                                                                                                                                                Sharing is caring.

                                                                                                                                              2. I'm a 47 year old female, so I have a more or less modern take on things. I think at least until a relationship is established, and comfortable enough that you are past "dating", the asker is the host, and should expect to pay.

                                                                                                                                                However, individual circumstances should be considered. I'm not usually the type to ask a guy out on a first date, but many moons ago, I was feeling pretty rich in my first real job, and was interested in a med student who had no money and was clearly also interested in me, I finally had to ask him to lunch because otherwise the relationship was not going to have a chance to get started :-)

                                                                                                                                                My parents have been married for almost 49 years now, but my Mom still tells the story about being mad and thinking my Dad was no longer interested because he didn't call her for two weeks. He didn't call because he had no money to take her out! So it's kind of nice that times have changed.

                                                                                                                                                3 Replies
                                                                                                                                                1. re: arashall

                                                                                                                                                  Brings back memories of my first real "date." I think I was 16 and she was 15. She was the younger sister of a male friend. I saved up enough $$ for a movie and a snack afterward. I was totally flustered and anxious as you might imagine.
                                                                                                                                                  I pick her up at her home and we walk over to the movie theater, step up to the ticket window and NO DATE MONEY!!! I had left it home. DUH!!
                                                                                                                                                  Thank goodness she took it in stride. We walked over to the park and talked for a few hours. The relationship lasted a few years on and off and we're still in contact.

                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Motosport

                                                                                                                                                    Sounds like you were quite lucky that she had the cash, huh?

                                                                                                                                                    1. re: ShowUsYourRack

                                                                                                                                                      Actually, she said: "Don't look at me, I didn't bring any cash."

                                                                                                                                                2. The gentleman should always pay on the first date.

                                                                                                                                                  Whether it's coffee, brunch, lunch or dinner. Whatever fits his budget.

                                                                                                                                                  PS I would never ask, call or be desperate :)

                                                                                                                                                  1 Reply
                                                                                                                                                  1. If there is quibbling over money on a first date, that's usually the LAST date for me. My father was always the first to reach for every restaurant check, and that set the bar pretty high for me. A sense of generosity is something I always look for in men (not because I am a mooch - I would never eat a meal I was not able to comfortably pay for myself) but because it says a lot about someone if he doesn't put a price on the value of time and effort spent on meeting and getting to know a new person.

                                                                                                                                                    My dear (now late) husband took me to a very nice restaurant on our first date, and was not sure he would be able to pay for it (close to the credit limit on his card, a few days before payday). He never let on that there might be a problem, and the transaction went through without a hitch. But by the end of that meal if there HAD been a problem, I was already so enamored with him that I would have cheerfully used MY card, and we would still have continued down our path towards a wonderful (but brief) marriage.

                                                                                                                                                    After he was gone, there was a brief string of dates where the guy paid in full and expected **ahem** a little more later in the evening. One fellow was very surprised when, after commenting that he had really made an investment in the evening's activities, I handed him $40 and said goodnight, with my clothes and my dignity intact.

                                                                                                                                                    13 Replies
                                                                                                                                                    1. re: Cheflambo

                                                                                                                                                      Cheflambo, thanks for sharing your personal story. Sounds like you had two very special men in your life :)

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: financialdistrictresident

                                                                                                                                                        Yes, financialdistrictresident, I sure did. Im a lucky girl. My brother is just like my dad this way, and HIS son, at 12, shows the same kind of generosity. You reap what you sow, IMHO

                                                                                                                                                        1. re: Cheflambo

                                                                                                                                                          Is it "unladylike" to be similarly generous?

                                                                                                                                                            1. re: fourunder

                                                                                                                                                              I think it's weird to assume one gender has--or should have-the lock on generosity.

                                                                                                                                                              I haven't seen any actual reasons for this "men pay rule" other than that old, worn chestnut "I was brought up this way", as if one must adhere to childhood teachings and puts no actual thought into them.

                                                                                                                                                              1. re: LeoLioness

                                                                                                                                                                Generosity is not gender-based. ALL my siblings (male and female) were taught that it is just good manners to offer to pay. But the dating scenario is fraught with checks and balances (so to speak) that brings the whole original topic up in the first place.

                                                                                                                                                                1. re: LeoLioness

                                                                                                                                                                  it's just paying for dinner....the reason is it's a tradition set forth as being a gentleman, having manners, showing respect and thanking one for one's company. You don't have to agree with it, nor accept it.

                                                                                                                                                                  You can keep looking all you want....but it's only to support your argument for what you want to believe.

                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: fourunder

                                                                                                                                                                    How about sharing the expenses between families or groom and bride? Crazy concept!!

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: linguafood

                                                                                                                                                                      and one against tradition.....or you could just elope and everyone would be happy.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: fourunder

                                                                                                                                                                        Some people's families aren't about tradition that much. I know I'm not.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: fourunder

                                                                                                                                                                          In certain Countries/Tribes I've heard that some kids/people are married before they'd even date simply because their marriage had already been set up by their Tribes families. They wouldn't have to pay for their 1st date(s) then...lol!

                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: LeoLioness

                                                                                                                                                                      <that old, worn chestnut "I was brought up this way">

                                                                                                                                                                      Damn, I wish that 'I was brought up this way' was used more often when boorish, unmannerly and self-centered men allow the door (they should hold or open for me) to slam in my face.
                                                                                                                                                                      A gentleman, paying for a meal and expecting nothing in return, is lovely. This comes from a woman who has no problem, and never has, attracting men.
                                                                                                                                                                      What I don't understand is a woman who finds that type of chivalry offensive.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                        I don't find it offensive. Just, as far as "rules" go, pretty stupid.

                                                                                                                                                          1. Yes, and the girl should always put out by the third. I mean, he's earned it.

                                                                                                                                                            *Eyeroll*

                                                                                                                                                            2 Replies
                                                                                                                                                            1. re: ChristinaMason

                                                                                                                                                              Well you know the rule, since you brought it up...so apparently it does exist. If you do not want to put out....don't go out on the third date..

                                                                                                                                                              My eyes are rolling too....

                                                                                                                                                            2. What the hell, I'll add my 12 cents.

                                                                                                                                                              I'm early 30s, but have a pretty "traditional" mindset when it comes to relationships. I was also what felt like a "professional dater" before I met my SO. I've pretty much never asked a guy out for a first or even second date. I believe, ye who does the asking, does the paying. And since I don't ask guys out, I didn't do much paying.

                                                                                                                                                              HOWEVER, a first date doesn't have to be dinner, in fact, I almost preferred to not do dinner. If it's not going well, you're stuck with them. Drinks/coffee or some kind of short-lived activity is usually better. One of my more memorable first dates in recent times was meeting the guy (from online) at an art gallery. We spent about an hour there wandering around and chatting (it was free). Then since it was going well, he asked if I wanted to grab something to eat, and suggested a hole in the wall Vietnamese place (it was very inexpensive, he paid). After that we went to a brewery and had a few beers (again cheap, and I paid). Very fun date, got to know him, we dated for a few months after that, and maybe no more than $30 combined was spent.

                                                                                                                                                              Now, for my SO and I it's a bit different. For one, I make less than half of what he does so it'll never be exactly even. We lived in different states and met online. I flew out to meet him for the first time (I paid for my ticket), but he paid for everything while I was visiting... hockey tickets, dinner, drinks, etc. Now, almost 2 years into it, we live together (in the house he owned before I came into the picture) and he still pays a larger portion of our "going out" expenses (in addition to a larger portion of household bills). He pays for season hockey tickets, but I'll buy him a beer or two at the game. If we eat out and it's at a cheaper place, I pay. If we go to a bar and eat and drink, either he pays, or I throw him $10 or something. He drinks about 4xs as much as I do. At home, I pay for all groceries and do 99.9% of the cooking.

                                                                                                                                                              1. The Host pays. The Host is the person who issues the invitation. Gender has nothing to do with it.

                                                                                                                                                                3 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                1. re: pedalfaster

                                                                                                                                                                  I'm not stuck on the gender part. For me, dating is a personal choice and that's that. But, I don't understand or assume that the person who sets up the date or asks is the person who absolutely pays. What if you haven't discussed who pays. What if the person asking doesn't assume asking means you pay the check. What if you don't figure that out until the evening progresses. Too many what ifs.

                                                                                                                                                                  What if your date says, you pick the place it doesn't matter to me where we meet I'm just really looking forward to seeing you. What then?

                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: pedalfaster

                                                                                                                                                                    Absolutely...can't imagine anyone thinking differently!

                                                                                                                                                                    Now, it's a totally different story when we (we're a couple) have dinner with other couples who are good friends. When we do so, regardless who initiated the get-together, we always split the bill evenly.

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: pedalfaster

                                                                                                                                                                      I already discussed that part earlier in this thread. It's still up for debate though.

                                                                                                                                                                    2. <another case could be perhaps that the girl's quite rich>

                                                                                                                                                                      What does that have to do with anything?
                                                                                                                                                                      The girl's rich, the boy's not and the boy still pays...

                                                                                                                                                                      36 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                        <The girl's rich, the boy's not and the boy still pays...>

                                                                                                                                                                        Is that sarcasm at its best?

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                                                                                                                                                          <Is that sarcasm at its best?>

                                                                                                                                                                          Not in the slightest.
                                                                                                                                                                          What does the girl's financial status have to do with anything?
                                                                                                                                                                          I know of a man who thinks because the woman is rich, and he's not, she should automatically pay for everything.
                                                                                                                                                                          That feeling of entitlement and the opportunistic attitude is rather disgusting.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                            Really...women have been doing that to men for as long as I can remember....only I don't find it disgusting.

                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                              < financial status have to do with anything>

                                                                                                                                                                              You do realize that means the poorer person is paying for the wealthier person for foods and drinks.

                                                                                                                                                                              <That feeling of entitlement and the opportunistic attitude is rather disgusting.>

                                                                                                                                                                              And it is not disgusting that a woman automatically assume any guy (no matters how poor he is) has to pay for her meals?

                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                                                                                                                                                                <You do realize that means the poorer person is paying for the wealthier person for foods and drinks>

                                                                                                                                                                                That's right. Don't expect me, because I have more money than another person, to automatically pick up the tab. That'd just be stupid and foolish on my part. I'll pay if I want, and only if I choose to.

                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                  <Don't expect me.... to automatically pick up the tab>

                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't expect you or anyone to automatically pick up the tab. I was just surprised by your earlier statement: "The girl's rich, the boy's not and the boy still pays..."

                                                                                                                                                                                  This sounds to be a very unyielding rule: the boy/guy is expected to pay regardless of the situations. It implies a sense of entitlement/ownership.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Entitlement is not a bad thing if it is well grounded and sensible. For example, you are entitled to vote for whoever you want -- because this is your voting right. You are entitled to invite whoever you want to your party -- because that is your money. I just don't think people are entitled to free dinner in a date.

                                                                                                                                                                                  <That'd just be stupid and foolish on my part.>

                                                                                                                                                                                  It isn't about being stupid or foolish. It is more about being understanding and compassionate when your date has a greater financial constraint.

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                                                                                                                                                                    <being understanding and compassionate>

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'd insist on going places that the man could afford if I was ever placed in that position.
                                                                                                                                                                                    I would never automatically assume the responsibility of paying because there was 'financial constraint' on his part.

                                                                                                                                                                                    <'Entitlement/ownership>

                                                                                                                                                                                    Interesting analysis. I've never felt like I was entitled to what anyone else had and I certainly wouldn't respect anyone who felt like they were entitled to what I have.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Especially a man.

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                      <Interesting analysis. I've never felt like I was entitled to what anyone else had>

                                                                                                                                                                                      In other words, you will retract this previous statement: "The girl's rich, the boy's not and the boy still pays...".

                                                                                                                                                                                      <I certainly wouldn't respect anyone who felt like they were entitled to what I have.>

                                                                                                                                                                                      No one said anything about someone taking anything from you. We were talking if he needs to pay for your lunches and dinners during dating.

                                                                                                                                                                                      <I would never automatically assume the responsibility of paying>

                                                                                                                                                                                      I was not talking about paying for his meals. I was talking about your meals. You don't think you should assume the responsibility of paying for your part of the meal?

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                                                                                                                                                                        <you will retract this previous statement>

                                                                                                                                                                                        Why would I do that? I've stated my position, clearly, and the girl's financial position isn't relevant as is the boy's.
                                                                                                                                                                                        The boy pays for whatever he's capable of paying. The girl is/isn't supportive of the choice.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Let's just agree we have a different set of standards.
                                                                                                                                                                                        My standards come from a mix of tradition, culture and choices.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Where I'm coming from…
                                                                                                                                                                                        A man would never allow a woman to pay for anything, would never allow a woman to walk through a door without him holding it and would never allow a woman to carry anything over 2 #'s.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Times have changed in this country, no question about it.

                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                          Your standards may be traditional, but they're pretty harmful in that they originate in and perpetuate the idea that women are fragile, ineffectual creatures who can't do anything for themselves.

                                                                                                                                                                                          They're not always great for men either. I'm visiting my parents who are in their late sixties. My dad, who needs both knees replaced, absolutely refused to let me carry a suitcase I could easily lift down the stairs. So I watched him wobble down with it and crossed my fingers that he wouldn't get hurt. It's just so unnecessary, as is having someone wreck their budget for a meal I can easily contribute to financially. Opening doors I think is just a nice thing to do for anyone.

                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: ErnieD

                                                                                                                                                                                            <they're pretty harmful in that they originate in and perpetuate the idea that women are fragile, ineffectual creatures who can't do anything for themselves>

                                                                                                                                                                                            Intellectually flawed deduction.
                                                                                                                                                                                            Women never have been, and never will be classified as 'fragile creatures', myself included. There's, most likely, no other woman who's stronger, physically, and more independent than I. The field of work I'm in certainly reflects it. When a man lifts something for me it has nothing to do with his view of me as 'fragile'.
                                                                                                                                                                                            Your father is a gentleman. Showing respect to his daughter is natural to him.
                                                                                                                                                                                            In several countries, where chivalry is traditional and cultural, to not allow the man to carry that suitcase would be very disrespectful to the man.
                                                                                                                                                                                            All women roll differently. I know who I am and fragility certainly isn't part of my pathology.

                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                              You're over personalizing my response. I didn't say that you are fragile or that women in general are; in fact I'm saying the opposite. But social customs are embedded in societal ideals and customs. We didn't just wake up one day and decide that men lift heavy things, open doors, and pay. Those customs originated in something, and looking at what they have in common it's pretty easy to speculate what that is.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Overall, I find the idea of "gentleman" to be fairly useless. My dad is smart, kind, open-minded, and generous. Those are qualities I appreciate in him. The fact that he grew up in a society that instilled in him the idea that there's only one way of being a man is not so important. And the fact that you are seriously suggesting it's reasonable for him to put his physical safety in danger rather than step outside of our respective gender roles for three minutes indicates how deeply ingrained our ideas about those roles have become.

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: ErnieD

                                                                                                                                                                                                <You're over personalizing my response>

                                                                                                                                                                                                Sorry if I come off that way…I certainly don't take anything on these threads personally. The majority of us don't know who the person is (or their background) and therefore taking anything personally would be ridiculous.
                                                                                                                                                                                                I have my way of looking at things and so far, for me, they've worked out very well. Most of the women in my life (and men) feel the same way I do. To some degree the men I've been accustomed to, in the last several years, are foreigners whose traditions have defined their lives and women are highly respected. Women from these countries come to the US and are appalled at the lack of mannerisms they're accustomed to. These women are very strong, intelligent, educated, cultured and well traveled.
                                                                                                                                                                                                I concede my generation is older and the mannerisms which I was raised with aren't popular any longer. However, I will not stop talking to young male children about the benefits of treating young/older women with respect…and those mannerisms include a variety of concepts that, in my opinion, will never go out of style. They're universal and timeless.

                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                  <They're universal and timeless.>

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They are certainly not universal and timeless. These "manners" you speak of are human creation and was only created in the last 500-ish years and is more or less declining now in many parts of the world.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Human (homo sapiens) existed for 200,000 years. You can calculate see how "un-timeless" this is.

                                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                I would say that the woman who doesn't expect a man to pay for her dinner simply because she is a woman is more "independent", by definition of the word.

                                                                                                                                                                                                But if you actually are Wonder Woman, as you insinuate, then I stand corrected.

                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: LeoLioness

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't expect a man to do anything for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I never have and never will.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I do recognize the physical differences and act accordingly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  If there's a man around who offers to lift a 50 pound box instead of me doing it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Of course I'll allow him the gesture. It'd be stupid of me not to. Why would I not?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  We're built differently.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Going out to dinner with a man? When I see a woman pull out her handbag to pay it seems so strange to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  It makes the man look like an A@#hole and the woman look weak.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                    It makes the man look weak and the woman look weaker.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                                                                                                                                                                                    In my culture, if you could zero in on what's happening at the handbag nearby, we'd call that noisy not weak.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    You had me all along until you said weak. Cultural plays a huge role in how we interact with men and woman. Weak is insulting to every culture.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: HillJ

                                                                                                                                                                                                      <you had me all along until you said weak>

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I agree. Very strong use of a word that I should not have used….
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I've watched this phenomena for a long time and I'm still trying to figure it out. It's definitely not something I'm accustomed to and impossible to define.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      A woman opening her handbag to pay for things the man is usually paying for is foreign to me. I'm not judging, just trying to understand.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      There's a shift in mannerisms and not sure what it is.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: HillJ

                                                                                                                                                                                                        <You had me all along until you said weak. >

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Really? So you were ok, when she said the man looks like an asshol, but you decided that she crossed the line when she said the woman looks weak. Lovely.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Chem, I was addressing when latind said weak. She changed the word weak to asshole and she replied in kind. What's so hard to understand.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Whatever issue you have with something latind has said, you can direct to her.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Don't be so quick to judge and jump on bits and pieces of an entire conversation. This entire thread has some very realistic answers even if we don't all agree and like it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I think latind has been very upfront about cultural beliefs. How do you argue with culture beliefs?

                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: HillJ

                                                                                                                                                                                                            <Whatever issue you have with something latind has said>

                                                                                                                                                                                                            No, I was addressing to you. Pretty sure I did.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            <Don't be so quick to judge and jump on bits and pieces of an entire conversation>

                                                                                                                                                                                                            I think I followed this conversation very well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            <What's so hard to understand.>

                                                                                                                                                                                                            I quoted exactly what I wrote. It is amazing that you agreed with her until she said the "weak" part. What is so hard to understand?

                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                                                                                                                                                                                              No, you aren't following me. Latind is talking about cultural beliefs. We all have cultural beliefs. In the context of cultural beliefs, I can share my own sure but I don't have to understand yours.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              I think the word weak (and latind agreed) was a poor choice of words. But the basis of her opinion is cultural.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              I don't have an issue with cultural differences.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: HillJ

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Look, I think we just have to disagree with this point. Unfortunately, from my point of view, I followed you just fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Bahahahaha! So, paying for a meal makes a man look like an asshole and a woman look weak? You are joking, right?

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Lemme see...here are a few guys I've bought meals for lately-

                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. DH- he just made a tuition payment and I've got more $ than him right now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                        2- my dad- birthday treat. Plus, ya know, he raised me to be a decent person. I figure I can spring for a few dinners.
                                                                                                                                                                                                        3- My brothers- one's a Marine waiting to start college and just working odd jobs til then. The other has a great career in the arts but makes far less than me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                        4- Coworkers- just because.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sheesh. Personally, I'm too busy enjoying my meal to eyeball other diners and assign them roles based on my own beliefs. But, hey, that's me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: Hobbert

                                                                                                                                                                                                          #1, 2 and 3 are all things I'm very accustomed to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          I do all these things with pleasure, more than pleasure.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          This thread addresses concepts that are much more involved.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hmmm. Your generalization seemed rather simplistic. Perhaps you typed too quickly? Been there, done that!

                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: Hobbert

                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm actually quite proud of my generation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                              It was simplistic, definitely, but it worked quite well for us.
                                                                                                                                                                                                              As is reflected on this thread, things became more complicated as we 'evolved'. in our mannerisms.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                          <When I see a woman pull out her handbag to pay it seems so strange to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          It makes the man look like an A@#hole and the woman look weak.>

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I am speechless.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, be speechless.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            There are others out here who have a completely different take on things.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            It's life.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                            You literally just said that you expect men to pick up the check, carry anything over 2 pounds, and always open the door for you, and that anyone who does otherwise is an asshole if male and weak if female. So you obviously expect men to do things for you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            I respect physical differences too. I'm healthy and in good shape, but my husband is 7 inches taller and has more upper body strength. Of course if something is enormous or hugely heavy, he's going to carry it. If it's a 15 pound bag of groceries that either of us can carry without blinking? Whoever is closest is going to pick it up, whereas you are saying no gentleman would "allow" this. By the same token, I accepted help from a male stranger last month getting a large and awkward tool kit into my car, and living in an area with a large elderly population I help an octogenarian woman lift or reach something in the grocery store 2-3 times per year. Doing things you are physically ( or financially, in the case of picking up a check) more qualified for is not gentlemanly, it is being a decent human being. But if I do something I'm more easily able to for a male, than not only am I "weak," but he is an asshole and not a gentleman.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            (The threading got messed up here-this was meant to be in response to the post starting with "I don't expect a man to do anything for me.")

                                                                                                                                                                                                      3. re: ErnieD

                                                                                                                                                                                                        100% agree with Ernie- these attitudes are harmful to women. And if you can't see that Latindancer, please see "showusyourrack's" comment about women finding ways of taking advantage of men. I'm giving you, Latindancer, the benefit of the doubt that you just see it as chivalry (which I disagree with as I think it necessarily precludes the idea that women can or should have those same qualities), but can you see that others perceive it as a negative characteristic of women?

                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Seems to me that you depend too much on what a man "allows" you to do.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      4. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Entitlement" either way can be a very shameful, disrespectful way of going through life.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: ShowUsYourRack

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Allowing the person(s) the entitlement is an even more shameful way of going through life.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: latindancer

                                                                                                                                                                                                            You don't seem to appreciate the definition of "entitlement". You kept saying that you don't expect anything from men, but in the same breath you said that men should always pay for a women -- if not he does not, then he is an asshol and she is a weakling. These statements are in full contradiction.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Let me quote from Merriam -Webster dictionary.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            ------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                            entitlement:

                                                                                                                                                                                                            : the condition of having a right to have, do, or get something

                                                                                                                                                                                                            : the feeling or belief that you deserve to be given something (such as special privileges)

                                                                                                                                                                                                            : a type of financial help provided by the government for members of a particular group

                                                                                                                                                                                                            ---------------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Since you have this feeling/belief that men should always paid for your meals and others, you do have a sense of entitlement.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Is this entitlement justified? That is another question. However, it is factual that you have a sense of entitlement. It is simply the definition.

                                                                                                                                                                                          2. The person who does the inviting pays the tab... it could be either of you. Asking somebody to take you to dinner and expecting them to pay is plain rude... but it's okay if you agree to go dutch or if they offer to pay the tab.

                                                                                                                                                                                            5 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: Kajikit

                                                                                                                                                                                              Oh is that what's going on here, asking someone to take you out to dinner and expecting them to pay doesn't sound like a date.

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: HillJ

                                                                                                                                                                                                It's kind of like the difference between Fishing & Catching now that I think about it. In one case, you might get lucky & get plenty of exactly what you want in full, while in the other case you just spend a lot of time paying for & getting nothing. Plus it can be filthy from time to time too...lol!

                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: ShowUsYourRack

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Show Us, you really know how to stir the pot! You 'hooked' your share of CH fish on this thread that's for sure.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  And what you've been describing doesn't sound like dating to me at all. It's hooking up. So to read you now, using a Fishing & Catching metaphor..well you reeled us all in didn't ya!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: HillJ

                                                                                                                                                                                                    "You get what you give" comes to mind.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: kattyeyes

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Not to my mind it doesn't. I sure learned a great deal about the current state of the dating scene around the CH globe though.

                                                                                                                                                                                            2. I think that if you (man or woman) like the other person (man or woman), you could pay and and say "I've got this, you can treat the next time", be it dinner out, a play, movies, concert, dinner at home or..... a round of 'hide the afikomen.'

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. If the guy asked the girl on the date, and can afford to pay, I think it's a nice gesture.It's the principle of offering to buy, rather than actually buying, that I find more important.

                                                                                                                                                                                                It doesn't bother me whether he pays or I pay, but it irks me if I arrive on time for a first date for coffee (most first dates in my demographic in my city seem to be coffee dates, and the second dates might involve dinner) at a coffee shop, to see that he already is sitting down, has his coffee then points to the cash register, telling me I can buy my coffee over there. Or if he stands behind me, waiting for me to open my wallet and pay,rather than offering to buy my coffee while we're in line at a coffee shop.

                                                                                                                                                                                                I am the type of person who often treats friends to coffee or drinks, so I don't understand why a guy who is asking me out wouldn't think it's a friendly gesture to offer to buy the first coffee, whether I accept the offer or not. Interestingly, the guys who have not offered to buy the first round of coffee don't tend to follow up with a 2nd date, perhaps because they couldn't be bothered to invest an extra $2 into the first date.

                                                                                                                                                                                                If you're a guy who wants to make a good impression, better to at least offer to pay the meal or coffee on the first date.

                                                                                                                                                                                                1. My 29 year old son dates all types of females. If he invites a new *friend* out his intention is to pay but he would not be emotionally devastated or emasculated if the girl paid. He does not do internet dating and eschews most of the antiquated gender roles alluded to here by older males posting on this thread.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  5 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: MamasCooking

                                                                                                                                                                                                    While I'm not offended by your son commenting about "older" (I have 4 grown children) I will say that I don't think age has any more to do with the roles people assume or take on than I do believe gender does.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Culture, communication, money-yes. Gender & age, no.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    2 cents from a hip, older lady.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: HillJ

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Culture, communication, money-yes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      And basic personality type.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I recently went on a lunch date with a 50something family doctor, who lives in a tony suburb, attends the opera (where a single ticket costs almost twice as much as lunch for 2) and is a world traveller. The lunch for 2 cost around $60, including 2 glasses of wine, tax and tip, which is reasonably priced for a casual lunch with table service in my city. I was surprised when the bill came, and he didn't offer to treat. He can afford a $60 lunch and has good communication skills, so it seems to me that it was probably his personality that kept him from offering to pay for the lunch, as far as I can tell.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: HillJ

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I would state that for the most part his very diverse group of friends all share similar ideologies. I disagree with you about age not being a factor in this subject. I have no idea what you mean by describing yourself as a *hip older lady* though. I am not trying to diss you in any way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: MamasCooking

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Oh I'm not offended at all. I certainly don't feel dissed. I believe I said so.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I understand we disagree about age. I can respect that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: MamasCooking

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sounds like you raised a good man, there, MC!

                                                                                                                                                                                                      3. BTW I used to be a member on a dating message board. "Who Pays" threads were akin to tipping threads here on CH.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. if i go out on a date with a guy (i'm female, by the way), i will *always* intend to pay for at least my half (if he asked me out). should he insist, politely, on it being his treat (and if i liked him and felt comfortable with that), then i'd insist on getting the next one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          if i asked *him* out, then my intention and expectation would be to pay either for the whole tab, or at least my half if he indicated a desire to pay his own way. i also always check with him about where he might like to go and offer some suggestions of my own, so that i can be reasonably sure we are both comfortable with the price range - whether the bill goes to one person or gets split, nobody winds up feeling obligated, awkward, limited in what s/he is comfortable ordering, or unable to offer to pay (if s/he would LIKE to) due to budget worries.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          i find a lot of the comments in this thread to be pretty disturbing, frankly, but i guess that's why i'm dating a partner who doesn't mind going 50-50 on everything (excepting on occasion, when one or the other of us will treat or buy presents, etc just for the joy of doing something nice for the other).

                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. I haven't dated in 32 years - ever since my first dinner date with my husband which he paid for BTW - and I wouldn't have married him if he had expected me (or even asked me) to pay. This is because I think men with manners pay for the meal (even though our bank account is in both our names and the money in it comes from both our salaries. We both work as Engineers)
                                                                                                                                                                                                            He still pays for the meal. Still buys me flowers, opens the door for me (always!), lets me enter first, takes off my coat and lets me order first, lets me shower first in the morning, etc., etc., etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            I wouldn't want him to treat me like one of his buddies. For me, it is respectful, it is manner-like, it is the way husbands should treat their wives.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            If he wouldn't have paid for that first date, I couldn't then later expect him to act like he does during our marriage.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            4 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: acssss

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Does this sort of "paying for" only extend to dinner? Is it an ill-mannered man who lets his wife pay the gas bill online or write out the mortgage check?

                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: LeoLioness

                                                                                                                                                                                                                It has nothing to do with bills, nothing to do with the credit card, the bank account or money. It has to do with how one person treats another when two people are together.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                My husband doesn't have to turn on the heater before he wakes me up so the bathroom is warm when I get up and the coffee is ready, but I love that he does.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                He doesn't have to help me put on my coat, I am perfectly capable, but I love that he does.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                When the waiter arrives, he can order first, but he doesn't - he gestures for me to order first.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                He doesn't have to open the car door for me - but he does.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Every single girlfriend of mine says they wish they had a husband like mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                We both work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                We both make money.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Again, it has nothing to do with money. It has to do with how one treats the other when they are together - at home and/or when they go out.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                He behaved in a certain way on that first date and has gotten only better over the years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                I don't see why that would offend anyone.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: acssss

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm not sure why you think I was offended--I just asked a question.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I didn't get an answer, but that's okay. Glad your way works for you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: LeoLioness

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I will be more specific then:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    No, it is not an ill-mannered man who lets his wife pay the gas bill online or write out the mortgage check.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            2. This thread made me wonder...how do same-sex couples navigate this issue?

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Once we take the whole male/female gender-thingy out of it, could be illuminating.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              8 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: pedalfaster

                                                                                                                                                                                                                CH, sendimental was discussing that with us just yesterday upthread, pedalf. I was actually very surprised there was any difference in navigating a date.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: HillJ

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks HillJ. My internet usage has been kind of spotty lately. Will go check up and read...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: pedalfaster

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    What's your perspective on same sex couples navigating this issue, pedal?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: pedalfaster

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I just wanted to thank everyone who took the time to reply.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I think I'm going to go with Grandmother here and stick to my "the Host(ess) pays".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The Invitee/guest can choose to reciprocate in multiple ways: a similar invitation (a home cooked dinner if a restaurant is not in the cards), a bouquet of flowers, or a simple "thank-you" note. The recipient ~should~ be able to figure out the sender's intentions based on that reply (hint to the guys: If she sends you a curteous, but curt, "thank-you" note, it's probably a "thanks, but-no-thanks" situation).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: HillJ

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      In my, albeit small, circle of lesbian friends their dating scene is as fraught with time bombs, rules, expectations, etc as their hetero counterparts. From who pays, who makes the first move, when to call/not call, text, sext, etc. Now that a number of my friends are single the stories I hear from both sides make me question ever wanting to be "back out there".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: foodieX2

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What you describe is my (albeit limited) experience too. I've never witnessed a relationship that wasn't fraught with some sort of hiccup at some point. Dating is dating. That's why I was surprised by comments to the contrary. What I do take away from all this is dating and finding someone is still as challenging as ever.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: HillJ

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nail on head-dating is dating no matter if you are LGBT, hetero, young or old!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    3. re: pedalfaster

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <.how do same-sex couples navigate this issue?>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It was discussed just above.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    4. I am an engineer - I fix our car - I mow the lawn - I shovel the snow - I know Krav Maga and I can carry more than half my weight (literally). I can do everything (probably more) than most men can.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      That said...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      When I am out with my husband, I love that he does things for me. I love that he spoils me. I love that he protects me. I love that he treats me like a women - with all the horrible implications that accompany that phrase.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I like that he opens the door for me, that he lets me enter first, that he sits down at a restaurant only after I sit, that he is the one to reach for his wallet (even though the person paying for the credit card at the end of the month is me from our joint account).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      For those that criticized the comments of those who believe that a man should pay (on the first date or otherwise). What would you say if you husband handed you the snow shovel and said "It's your turn" after you just breastfed your baby?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Women are not equal. If they work at the same job - they should be paid equally. But they are different... and thank God for that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The day my husband starts treating me like his brother/friend is the day I leave. I want to be treated like a woman... at least when I am with him.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: acssss

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't equate my SO signing the credit card slip from our joint account as treating me "like a woman", personally.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My partner and I clearly have a very different approach to money but I wouldn't say that means we treat each other like siblings. Because ew.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: LeoLioness

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You continue to talk about money, when three times already I've indicated that it has nothing to do with the money. It has to do with the gesture. The manners involved with the gesture. The offer to pay.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If a woman goes on a first date with a man and he expects her to pay the bill for dinner (I don't care how much money either of them have - because it has nothing to do with money). For me that is a clear sign of things to come.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. It seems like everything there is to be said on this subject has already been said, and now the discussion is just going in circles, and growing increasingly unfriendly. We're going to lock it now.