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Do we need to boil or scald the milk which you get in US to make Yogurt

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udaykiran Dec 29, 2013 06:08 AM

Often we get into discussion if we need to boil or scald the milk to make yogurt from Milk we get in US (canned milk).

What would be the difference in Yogurt if we Boil or Scald ?

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  1. hotoynoodle RE: udaykiran Dec 29, 2013 07:29 AM

    have never heard of using canned milk? most recipes call for fresh whole milk being heated to 180.

    1. sunshine842 RE: udaykiran Dec 29, 2013 07:53 AM

      The vast majority of milk sold in the US is fresh, not canned or Tetrapacked into boxes. It needs to be scalded before making yogurt.

      In Europe, where most milk is UHT-treated and is sold in sealed bottles or tetrapaks on a shelf at room temperature, you still have to scald the milk.

      It's hygiene.

      16 Replies
      1. re: sunshine842
        u
        udaykiran RE: sunshine842 Dec 29, 2013 08:16 AM

        You mean scald milk is fine and no need to boil to high temperature

        1. re: udaykiran
          sunshine842 RE: udaykiran Dec 29, 2013 09:26 AM

          to make yogurt you bring the milk to a temperature of 180F/82C, then let it cool to 110F/43C.

          You wouldn't boil it.

        2. re: sunshine842
          honkman RE: sunshine842 Dec 30, 2013 08:49 AM

          Compared to Europe much more milk in the US is UHT-treated. It's also much easier to find raw milk in Europe

          1. re: honkman
            sunshine842 RE: honkman Dec 30, 2013 05:02 PM

            Yes, that's why there are 40-foot aisles of UHT milk found in European supermarkets, but *maybe* one SKU in the US.

            Lots of European supermarkets don't even carry fresh milk.

            Raw milk can be found, but you have to deliberately look for it -- it's not carried in "ordinary" supermarkets.

            1. re: honkman
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              Alan408 RE: honkman Dec 30, 2013 09:30 PM

              According to Wikipedia, he is correct

              1. re: Alan408
                sunshine842 RE: Alan408 Dec 31, 2013 04:01 AM

                (sunshine is a she -- but thanks for the backup)

                Here's the link, even: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UHT_milk

                Germany: 66.1% of milk is UHT
                UK: 8.4%
                Croatia: 73%
                Switzerland: 62.8%
                France: 95.5%
                Spain: 95.7%
                Portugal: 92.9%
                Denmark: 0.0%

                With the exception of the UK and Denmark (which would be part of that nasty regional variation thing I mentioned) -- would you please explain how a market share of 62-95% makes UHT a rarity?

                1. re: sunshine842
                  honkman RE: sunshine842 Dec 31, 2013 07:34 AM

                  They don't say where they get the numbers and i don't believe them. I have lived for 30 years in Europe, e.g. Germany, England, Croatia and traveled extensively in many others as like France, Portugal, Spain, Denmark and in all these countries every supermarket has a large selection of non-UHT milk which is larger than the one for UHT milk. In California, where I currently live the selection for UHT milk is larger than it ever was in any of these countries. In addition it was and it is never a problem to find raw milk in supermarkets. When I go back to visit my parents in Germany I can go in many supermarkets close by to find easily raw milk. (I have in general, not only with this topic, a problrm that people nowadays seem to believe that Wikipedia is the ultimate truth when many, many topics on Wikipedia are simply wrong because it is written by people who most of the time are just copying incomplete stuff from the internet. Hardly anything on Wikipedia is written by expert and I would not trust it)

                  1. re: honkman
                    sunshine842 RE: honkman Dec 31, 2013 10:38 AM

                    I have recently returned from living and shopping and cooking in Europe, and still visit on a regular basis for personal and professional visits -- so my observations and statements are based on MY personal experience across several decades of visits, as well as my long-term residence on the continent.

                    It's quite important to observe and mention that the percentage of UHT versus fresh varies wildly from country to country and region to region -- but UHT is still far more common than fresh in a significant proportion of European countries.

                    There are 40-foot aisles, multiple shelves, of multiple brands (store brand, regional brand, national-brand, goat milk, organic) of UHT milk in every French, German, Belgian, and Dutch supermarket I've ever visited.

                    It is never a guarantee that smaller supermarkets will even carry fresh milk (particularly in France and the French-speaking regions of Belgium)-- and even the hypermarkets have it in just one 2-metre section of the refrigerated dairy.

                    And while I could tell you where to buy raw milk yet today, it wouldn't be at every supermarket -- I never, ever saw it in any chain or hypermarket -- it is available only at small independent stores.

                    and yes, the Wiki article most assuredly DOES state where they got the numbers -- the link in footnote 8 is a bad link, but the same article, which came from the London Times, lies behind a paywall, and is correctly linked in footnote 13.

                    I've even found the article here: http://www.ytlcommunity.com/commnews/... -- quoting the data as having come from Euromonitor International, a highly-regarded independent market-research firm.

                    Need more? This from the EU website itself -- http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/eval/... says in so many words that " UHT milk is the preferred form in Germany ".

                    1. re: sunshine842
                      honkman RE: sunshine842 Dec 31, 2013 11:25 AM

                      As I said before I have mine own experiences as a German which are very different with yours (and I have lived in several parts of Germany and Europe) and it is no problems to find even in the smallest towns and supermarkets fresh milk. So in the end we have to agree to disagree.

                      1. re: honkman
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                        Alan408 RE: honkman Dec 31, 2013 11:43 AM

                        Do many adult Europeans drink milk

                        I have the impression from people shopping chain supermarkets in the US that adults don't drink as much milk as children

                        1. re: Alan408
                          sunshine842 RE: Alan408 Dec 31, 2013 12:15 PM

                          It depends on the country -- in France, adults almost never drink milk -- in Holland, Germany, and the UK, it's much more common.

                        2. re: honkman
                          sunshine842 RE: honkman Dec 31, 2013 12:19 PM

                          as per the statistics, if 66% of the milk sold in Germany is UHT, that still means that 34% of it must be fresh -- thus there has to be more available fresh than in, say, France, where the UHT market share is 95%.

                          But 66% is still a rather decided majority.

                          1. re: sunshine842
                            honkman RE: sunshine842 Dec 31, 2013 12:55 PM

                            Again based on my own experience living in different parts of Germany, England, Switzerland and Croatia I wold say that the ratio of non-UHT to UHT in all four countries was about 2 or 3:1 in nearly all supermarkets. I am not saying that there is no UHT milk but it is definitely not "40-foot aisles of UHT milks". I have actual more often now in California (where i currently live) problems to find good non-UHT (and non-rBST) milk (especially for making cheese) if i don't go to WF or similar shops.Even worse with raw milk which again is quite easy to find in countries like Germany and Croatia for example but nearly impossible here.

                            1. re: honkman
                              sunshine842 RE: honkman Dec 31, 2013 01:10 PM

                              if you've been to France (or any of the countries topping the 80% mark) then you've seen 40-foot aisles of UHT milks.

                              If the number is 66% UHT and 34% fresh in Germany, then yes, I absolutely believe that it's 2:1 in German supermarkets (because 66:34 would be 2:1 UHT to fresh -- still enough to be considered more popular than fresh). It would be about that in Croatia or Switzerland (73% and 62.8% respectively).

                              In my local grocery today, there were just 5 SKUs of UHT milk (my grocery has a very wide selection...) -- while in the 20-foot-long refrigerated aisle, there were dozens of SKUs (that's Stock Keeping Units -- pints, quarts, half-gallons, gallons of various store, local, and national brands) of fresh milk -- organic, whole, 2%, 1%, and even a pint of goat milk.

                              Raw milk is next-to-impossible to find in the US because it's not considered safe for human consumption (and therefore illegal to sell) in most states. In Florida, you can buy raw milk, but you have to sign an affadavit affirming that it's intended for consumption by domestic animals before the sale is permitted. (I do agree with you that this issue is insanity.)

                              1. re: sunshine842
                                honkman RE: sunshine842 Dec 31, 2013 01:24 PM

                                I wrote 2:1 for non-UHT to UHT. I have yet to see a single supermarket in those countries, especially Germany and Croatia, which has a larger UHT section than non-UHT section.
                                Raw milk is actually not illegal in California but nearly impossible to find. BTW, where do you live ?

                                1. re: honkman
                                  sunshine842 RE: honkman Dec 31, 2013 01:38 PM

                                  You wanted citations for my numbers and I supplied them. If you have numbers supporting your claims of the nonexistence of UHT milk in Germany and Croatia, please supply them.

                                  As my statement regarding laws in Florida would suggest, I live in Florida. Raw milk can be found here fairly quickly with a Google. (doesn't make it cheap or easy to access...just that it exists)

                                  I'd suggest contacting a local CSA or cheese producer -- they might be able to direct you to a supplier.

          2. u
            udaykiran RE: udaykiran Dec 29, 2013 08:14 AM

            When I say canned, sorry I meant tetra packed or milk in plastic cans.

            4 Replies
            1. re: udaykiran
              sunshine842 RE: udaykiran Dec 29, 2013 09:29 AM

              Milk is sold fresh and refrigerated in the United States. While it can be found tetrapacked, it is not found in shelf-stocked plastic bottles or cans in the United States, and it is a rarity, not even found in every store.

              Tetrapacked/shelf-stable milk needs to be heated and cooled to make yogurt, just like the fresh stuff.

              It's pretty obvious that you're not familiar at all with grocery shopping in the United States (which is not a problem) -- but what is your actual question? Who is the "we" with whom you have discussions?

              Because "we" in the US don't buy "canned" milk very often.

              1. re: sunshine842
                hotoynoodle RE: sunshine842 Dec 29, 2013 10:12 AM

                am thinking the op may have an english translation issue, but my thoughts of canned milk in the us are evaporated or condensed -- neither if which is suitable for yogurt-making.

                1. re: hotoynoodle
                  sunshine842 RE: hotoynoodle Dec 29, 2013 10:28 AM

                  I agree. English is a second language (which is fine - I've lived where the local language is my second language) -- but the combination of the language and the lack of commercial/cultural familiarity makes me wonder if this thread is really about what it's about.

                  1. re: sunshine842
                    hotoynoodle RE: sunshine842 Dec 29, 2013 10:46 AM

                    now i'm wondering if the op is abroad and buying canned milk that was produced in the states?

            2. j
              jaykayen RE: udaykiran Dec 29, 2013 10:51 AM

              I'm going to say no. I accidentally left out a half glass of milk on my nightstand for two days. Next time I looked at it, it had cultured something and was thick. Possibly, we just heat it up for insurance.

              7 Replies
              1. re: jaykayen
                sunshine842 RE: jaykayen Dec 29, 2013 02:32 PM

                but would you have drank that glass of whateveritwas?

                We all know that yogurt is a culture of bacteria -- good, benevolent, and beneficial bacteria.

                Chances are quite good that your glass of yuk contained malignant strains of bacteria that would have made you seriously, potentially even fatally ill.

                The reason you scald the milk is to knock down the population of bad guys, clearing the way for the good guys to become the dominant presence in the culture.

                Can you make yogurt without scalding milk? Sure you can. Can you make yogurt that is safe for human consumption? Maybe -- maybe not. Since there is absolutely no upside to the gamble, why take it?

                1. re: sunshine842
                  j
                  jeanmarieok RE: sunshine842 Dec 29, 2013 02:38 PM

                  Are you saying you take your milk above 180?

                  1. re: jeanmarieok
                    sunshine842 RE: jeanmarieok Dec 29, 2013 02:54 PM

                    might want to read my posts upthread.

                  2. re: sunshine842
                    j
                    jaykayen RE: sunshine842 Dec 29, 2013 03:18 PM

                    The only reason to scald the milk is to make sure the proteins denature. No one wants to make failed yogurt. If I was worried about big, bad bacteria that was already in unexpired, refrigerated milk, I wouldn't drink it in the first place.

                    I did NOT drink the milk I left out because I don't know what cultured in it. I would definitely eat unscalded milk/yogurt that was cultured with the proper bacteria.

                    1. re: jaykayen
                      hotoynoodle RE: jaykayen Dec 29, 2013 06:33 PM

                      creme fraiche is made at room temp and not scalded.

                      back in the day people used soured or "clabbered" milk for baking.

                      1. re: jaykayen
                        sunshine842 RE: jaykayen Dec 29, 2013 07:51 PM

                        So why would you similarly NOT want to consume a culture in which you'd taken the step to ensure that the bad stuff had been knocked down or eliminated, giving the good stuff basically an open playing field?f

                        1. re: sunshine842
                          j
                          jaykayen RE: sunshine842 Dec 30, 2013 01:22 AM

                          I didn't consume it NOT because I thought it would make me sick. I didn't consume it because I thought it was unlikely to taste good.

                  3. r
                    rainey RE: udaykiran Dec 29, 2013 02:49 PM

                    I think what I've read is that it isn't absolutely necessary but it's recommended to denature the natural enzymes in milk so they can produce the creamy consistency you're going for. Same with making ice cream. So don't think of it as a sanitation measure but a technique one.

                    As for someone sniffing at using canned milk, I learned from someone who makes Vietnamese style yogurt that some condensed milk adds lovely subtle flavor and sweetness to your yogurt. I wouldn't go back now. You can also steep a small piece of cinnamon or a crushed cardamom seed in the milk while it's heating to add another note. A splash of vanilla works too if you enjoy a plain yogurt without fruit but still want some flavor.

                    I also sieve my yogurt as I pour it into individual jars to incubate. That and a nice long, slow degradation of the temperature give me a thick custardy yogurt that commercial yogurt can never compare to in any way.

                    2 Replies
                    1. re: rainey
                      hotoynoodle RE: rainey Dec 30, 2013 06:16 AM

                      not "sniffing" by any means. just wondering about the op's intent and happy to learn that other food cultures use it. :)

                      1. re: hotoynoodle
                        r
                        rainey RE: hotoynoodle Dec 30, 2013 07:04 AM

                        Oops! Sorry if I misrepresented but I did want people to know what a great addition condensed milk is. I, almost never use it otherwise but this year I'm stocking up on it at TJs for my yogurt.

                        For some strange reason, TJs considers condensed milk a "seasonal" ingredient and won't restock after Christmas. They'll continue to offer what they have until it's gone but then there's a long dry period.

                        I like theirs because it comes in a squeeze bottle that easily serves up a couple tablespoons and then recloses.

                    2. j
                      janniecooks RE: udaykiran Dec 30, 2013 01:42 AM

                      If you scald (not boil) the milk first, and let the temperature come down to about 95 degrees F, the resulting yogurt will be a bit thicker than if you use the milk without scalding. No scald yields loosier, runnier yogurt. Scalding is done for this reason alone, not for any hygiene or health reasons.

                      1. a
                        autumm RE: udaykiran Dec 31, 2013 01:42 PM

                        I don't bother. I take regular milk, mix in my starter culture (usually from the previous batch) and let it incubate. It needs an extra hour or 2 to fully culture, but it's much easier.

                        If you are using pasteurized milk, it's already been heated to kill off anything you don't want. Now if someone drinks out of the container in your home, scalding it might be a good idea.

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