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Nov 21, 2013 07:50 AM

Pure enameled aluminium or enameled copper without nanotoxins

I've been searching the whole internet and asking manufacturers but everyone is clueless:

Who makes enameled aluminium or copper cookware but:

-without "non-stick" polymers
-without ceramic-teflon stuff
-without nano-particles

Just really simple a pot made out of normal aluminum + enemail (glass). Nothing spectacular. Or it can be copper + enamail which is a bit more expenisve.

Unlike all other cookware pure aluminum+pure enemail is cheap, light, non-reactive, thermaliy good conductive and durable sulution.

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  1. I'm sort of curious. What advantages do you think that an enameled high heat transfer metal (i.e. aluminum and copper) will have?

    It seems to me the advantages of aluminum or copper cookware is rapid reaction to changes in temperature, which is usually fulfilled by clad cookware nowadays. Enameled cast iron (e.g. Le Creuset or Staub) does great in retaining heat and distributing it evenly, though I'd much prefer to cook on straight cast iron/carbon steel or stainless steel.

    In what type of situation would you want to do otherwise?

    20 Replies
    1. re: Cynic2701

      Yes, better themal conductivity means better heat transfer and distribution - better cooking:

      CAST IRON 58 Wm°K
      ALUMINIUM 225 Wm°K
      COPPER 392 Wm°K

      Copper is the best and is also DIAMAGNETIC if you're into energetics of food. But is more expensive than aluminium.

      Aluminium is around 5 times more thermally conductive than iron and steel which is a huge difference. And it is PARAMAGNETIC which is way better than iron and steel which are ferromagnetic (they leech energy from food).

      The problem is that producers have no clue what they are doing so they line aluminium and copper with different chemicals or steel instead of just enemaling it.

      So I'm just looking for alu or copper cookware with simple enemail layer without other metals and teflon.

      1. re: VictorA

        Victor, aside from the magnetic energetics of the materials, enamel is an insulating material, i.e. has very LOW thermal conductivity. At least porcelain enamel is, the kind usually found on cookware. Also fairly expensive. So it pretty much defeats the purpose of cooking with aluminum to begin with, and is much less durable than stainless steel.

        The closest thing I can think of is the ceramic non-stick linings on aluminum skillets (the "Green Pan" and other similar products). They don't retain their non-stick quality for terribly long, but are a ceramic lining on aluminum. They're not hard to find, though, so something tells me you have an energetics-based or other objection to those.

        There is a line of cookware that is made of aluminum and coated with enamel, but only on the exterior; the interior is non-stick. It's called Kitchen Fair; it's made by Regal (of Wisconsin), and sold only via multi-level-marketing (like Amway or Tupperware etc.)

        The only enamel-interior pans I know of aside from enameled cast iron are Chantal's Copper Fusion line, whose interior is a sandwich of carbon steel around a thin layer of copper.

        1. re: ellabee

          <The only enamel-interior pans I know of aside from enameled cast iron are Chantal's Copper Fusion line,..>

          Le Creuset makes a straight enamel-coated carbon steel pan, with a stainless rim. This construction only seems to be available in stockpots and teakettles.

          1. re: DuffyH

            <The only enamel-interior pans I know of aside from enameled cast iron are Chantal's Copper Fusion line,..>

            Le Creuset makes a straight enamel-coated carbon steel pan, with a stainless rim. This construction only seems to be available in stockpots and teakettles. "

            Thanks for the input. It is true that enamel is poor in thermal conductivity but it is thin and the ONLY non-reactive surface.

            Seems that you're right about Chantal. I don't trust LeCreuset, I'm not sure it is pure enamel, I see they produce all kinds of nasty stuff like nonstick/ceramic coating and anodized aluminium.

            But the pricing is unbelivable. I can get 10 normal enameled pots for the price of 1, but I still might get this Chantal Copper Fusion pot because it seems it is the only thing on the market.

            1. re: VictorA

              If you don't trust Le Creuset, I don't see which company you can trust...

        2. re: VictorA

          Another thing to think of, aside from ellabee's good comment, is that thermal expansion coefficients are different across different materials. Different materials expand and contract at different rates and different amounts which can lead to cracking and splitting--this is probably another reason why we don't see much enamel coating outside of cast iron.

          As ellabee noted, enamel (which is essentially ground glass heated up and then cooled)) is not that great of a heat conductor. It would kind of defeat the purpose of using a material like aluminum or copper.

          1. re: Cynic2701

            Yes, it is a bit harder to enamel aluminium and copper (because they can't stand temperatures over 600C) but it really isn't a big deal.

            It probably isn't profitable to produce cheap, healty and quality cookware.

            1. re: VictorA

              What I am pointing out is less on the manufacturing process (i.e. firing the enamel) but rather on the problems that a pan made out of materials with different thermal expansion rates will encounter. Cracking, chipping, and perhaps even violent ejection of the enamel could occur.

              I'm not convinced by Victor Schauberger's arguments on the "magnetics" or "energetics" of food. Should you be, I would argue that you would, necessarily and by extension, be much more concerned with the correlative of the ground of the "energy" used in the creation of the pan to begin with. As it appears to me, it is at odds with the end (i.e. "energy" that is destructive rather than constructive) that Schaumberger was advocating.

              In any case, wouldn't you want to, then, be cooking only on something like Pyrex?

          2. re: VictorA

            Hi, Victor: "...if you're into energetics of food..."

            I'm not, but I read Steve Gagne's writing here:

            What's the magnetism-type of the cookware got to do with the "energetics" of food?


            1. re: kaleokahu

              I haven't studied that but is seems like the Rudolf Steiner's school.

              For example if you ever teard that steel knife leaches energy form lemon? So you need something diamagnetic - copper, silver, wood etc. Since metals are reacitve the best choice is ceramic, wooden or plastic knife for lemons :)

              1. re: VictorA

                just a comment here: whatever this is, it's not anything i've heard of in connection with steiner.

                rudolf steiner was a prolific lecturer though, so maybe i've missed this along the way in my many, many years and 3 kids in steiner schools...

            2. re: VictorA

              <Copper is the best and is also DIAMAGNETIC if you're into energetics of food. But is more expensive than aluminium.>

              What? Ok, let's take a step back. Iron is ferromagnetic. Copper is diamagnetic as you have said. Aluminum is paramagnetic, and?

              <And it is PARAMAGNETIC which is way better than iron and steel which are ferromagnetic (they leech energy from food).>

              I have never heard of this. If you are into magnetizing your foods, then why don't you just do that? Buy a big magnetic and put it next to your food or use induction cooking -- plenty magnetic field there.

              1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                Best for growing and preparing food are diamagenic materials.

                Source: Victor Schauberger

                1. re: VictorA

                  Alright. Thanks for providing the source: Viktor Schauberger

                  I will look up what he said about this, but if this is what he said, that there is no known modern scientific data to back his theory on this. If I find out any enameled copper cookware, then I will let you know, but I really don't think anyone makes this.

                  By the way, won't these Green ceramic pans cookware be what you want?

                  1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                    Ceramic isn't enemail, it has non-stick bad stuff in it.

                    Tin or silver lining is ok but it is expensive and slightly reactive.

                    Aluminium or copper enameled is the best trade off.

                    1. re: VictorA

                      Can you tell me why the ceramic cookware has more bad stuff than enameled [sp]?

                      1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                        Perhaps he's thinking of the Swiss Diamond and various 'titanium' pans that use diamonds or hard 'ceramics' as the bonding/wear surface, but still use PTFE as the nonstick ingredient.

                        1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                          quick search on the internet says enemel is glass and ceramic is widely misused and contains glue, nanoparticles or teflon.

                          I'd order this if they are telling the truth about bottome enemail:

                          1. re: VictorA

                            Why don't you send an email to Chantal's customer service department to find out?

                            I thought you wanted enameled aluminum, not enameled steel? If you're open to enameled steel, there are many, many more options for you, including Lodge, Fontignac, Staub and LeCreuset, to name a few of the more well-known brands.

            3. IMO, you are making this too hard. If you want a good aluminum pot, you can find them at a restaurant supply store. I don't know what nanoparticles are. And honestly, I don't care.

              Any good pot from a reputable manufacturer should work fine, and give good service. I prefer stainless myself. I have clad and aluminum bottomed pots.

              5 Replies
              1. re: sueatmo

                I just want simple enemaled aluminium or copper pot. That's all.

                1. re: VictorA

                  It may be that you're looking for something that just doesn't exist, or is very rare. I'm having a hard time with my own cookware search, so I understand it can be frustrating.

                  You could write to someone who teaches about food energetics and ask them what cookware they use, or perhaps find a food energetics forum and ask the community what they use.

                  1. re: VictorA

                    Other than the afore mentioned Chantel, and I'm not sure of the exact construction on that one. Aluminum and Copper oxidize very rapidly and there may be issues with appllying an enamel coating to these substrates. This is not my area of expertise, I just know that getting things to stick to metal oxides, can be difficult. Perhaps there is just such low demand for such items they are not produced.

                    1. re: mikie

                      Anyone that makes jewlery can enemail copper or aluminium.

                      It isn't such a big deal for cookware manufacturers.

                    2. re: VictorA

                      You will have a hard time finding 'enemail' in cookware:

                      From the urban dictionary: "1. enemail
                      The act of purging your inbox of e-mails kept for a very long time,
                      Derived from the words enema and email, '......

                      You might have more success searching for 'enamel'.

                      Something tells me that you are probably not a fan of induction cooking.

                  2. Just put the food in a Reichian Orgone Box and the energy will be right back.

                    4 Replies
                      1. re: sal_acid


                        Actualy I have one near the fridge, faucet and stove. That way it flows through iron and stainless steel which would normally destroy water in food.

                        1. re: VictorA

                          Say what? Inert metals destroy water? Have we entered bizarro world or are you yanking our collective chains?

                          1. re: DuffyH

                            I'm fairly certain that he ascribes to the philosophies of Viktor Schauberger, who wrote on two different types of "energy": inward flowing energy and outward flowing energy. Supposedly, outward flowing energy is destructive and to be avoided, and inward energy was constructive. Then there's lots of stuff he wrote about water that I think this VictorA is really into.

                      2. What you probably want is Berndes ceramic pearl, going by the names SignoCast, EcoFit, or Vario Click depending on the handle design (screw, screw with reinforced hole, and some sort of quick-to-detach thing, respectively). It's thick aluminum with a thin layer of ceramic, and it's completely cadmium and PFOA/PTFE/PFOS free and comparable to enamel. (There is no such thing as ceramic-teflon and "nano-particles" is meaningless fearmongering. There is ceramic-reinforced teflon where teflon is draped over ceramic, if that is what you meant.)

                        I should warn you that the thickness of this cookware is such that it is no longer lightweight. If light weight is a must and you don't mind Made in China, you could try something like Vinaroz die-cast aluminum with ceramic coating. Personally I don't fully trust Chinese ceramic to be toxin-free.

                        I actually wrote a review about Berndes's ceramic-on-aluminum cookware, but forum rules prevent me from linking to anything other than my main page. You can search for "Berndes review" there.


                        10 Replies
                        1. re: centurylife_dot_org

                          I have several Berndes pans, all bought at great prices at TJMaxx. One is a deep 10" fry pan with some sort of 'ceramic' liner. Like other induction compatible aluminum pans, it is a thick cast aluminum with a steel 'trivet' bonded to the base. Thus the base is a distinctive polkadot appearance.

                          This ceramic isn't quite as nonstick as their PTFE pans, but so far is holding up.

                          The 2014 ATK cookbook has a test of nonstick pans. Their preferred pan is a Tefal 'pro' with a color changing dot in the center. It fried more than 76 eggs before starting to stick They also tested ceramics. They are doing better, but do not quite have the long term performance of PTFE pans.

                          I've eyed a small Tefal pan at TJMaxx, but it isn't induction compatible.

                          1. re: centurylife_dot_org

                            I used to use a Berndes Signo Cast Dutch Oven and it was guite light in weight. It is a great pot, but purchased before I had an induction cook top. I had to give it away.

                            Are these newer versions heavier now because of the added steel?

                            1. re: centurylife_dot_org

                              Great job, but why ceramic instead of enemail??

                              How hard is to make just a cheap simple thick alluminum with pure enemail??

                              1. re: VictorA

                                Hi, Victor: "How hard is to make just a cheap simple thick alluminum with pure enemail??"

                                I don't know, but I think you're about to tell us.

                                My experience tells me that bonding enamel to aluminum and having the coated pan survive heat and knocks would be a daunting and technical challenge. The history of enamel technology teaches that enameling copperware was attempted since the 1700s, with very little success. See,

                                IMO, there must be some technical reason why enamel works well as a coating for ironware yet not so well for copper and aluminum. One reason iron and steel work so well is that the carbon content can be tightly controlled to prevent unwanted reactions when firing.

                                If you want to read up, you might like: Judd, Donald, “Porcelain Enameling Aluminum: An Overview,” Proceedings of the 59th Porcelain Enamel Institute Technical Forum, 45-51 (1997).


                                1. re: kaleokahu

                                  I recall finding, for some other thread, a study of the unique bonding that occurs when enamel is applied to steel or iron. There was some sort of chemical reaction that makes the bond stronger than with other metals.

                                  1. re: paulj

                                    Hi, Paul:

                                    You know, I *thought* I remembered the same thing! I remember associating it with the old speckleware--it really was a fascinating and profound process that seemed extraordinary.


                                    1. re: paulj

                                      Could be - that's why they force ceramic aluminium cookware which has a layer of glue between..

                                    2. re: kaleokahu

                                      Interesting, however I don't have time to study and read, I need workable solutions now ;)

                                      Alu and copper is probably harder to enemail because they have lower melting point.

                                      Or maybe it isn't.

                                  2. re: centurylife_dot_org

                                    I will apologize in advance for disagreeing with you regarding your choice of cookware being Berndes. I purchased to very nice large frying pans about 5 years ago and all I can say is that this was a bad purchase.

                                    The Bernes which is made in Germany, I thought would be great but it so completely disintegrated more and more every time I used it. The center of the pan changed colors, from black to a light grey-brownish, and I ended up throwing one pan away within 6 month time, a record for me.......$110.00 in the trash.

                                    The second one I tip-toed around it seeing what happened to the first pan and it lasted about a year. The food I cooked on this frying pan was bad.

                                    Please stay away from Berndes it is made to fall apart.