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Debunking Boston restaurant myths

Blumie Nov 16, 2013 09:12 AM

It's incredibly hard to debunk a myth or change a reputation, even if at one point it was well deserved. I thought it might be interesting to compile a list of these myths and no-longer-deserved reputations in order to educate people on the CURRENT state of the Boston restaurant scene, not some outdated or never-existed state. Here's a few off of the top of my head. Obviously some will disagree with mine. Please add your own.

1. Boston doesn't have good Mexican food. Certainly this once was kinda true, but certainly no longer is. We may not be L.A., but if you want Mexican, we have some places to send you.

2. Boston is a great seafood town. If that's true, why do we have such crummy seafood restaurants? Of course you can get good seafood in numerous Boston-area restaurants, and the addition of places like Island Creek certainly have upped the ante, so maybe this myth is soon to become a reality!

3. Teatro is loud. Ok, the place is not quiet, but the addition of carpeting and acoustic ceiling tiles resolved the deafening noise problem years and years (and years) ago.

What else you got?

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  1. MC Slim JB RE: Blumie Nov 16, 2013 10:01 AM

    1. Loud restaurants happen by accident; restaurateurs are surprised when their new places feature deafening noise levels that force customers to shout at peak periods.

    Truth: this is a deliberate design choice driven by economics. Customers don't camp on tables at noisy places, enabling an extra turn per service.

    2. Inexpensive traditional restaurants with modest dining rooms are dirty and put diners at higher risk of food-borne illness.

    Truth: you're just as likely to catch something unpleasant at a high-end restaurant, where dubious food-handling practices are equally common. This one especially sticks in my craw in reference to Chinatown.

    Okay, neither of those are Boston-specific, but they're pernicious nonetheless.


    18 Replies
    1. re: MC Slim JB
      jajjguy RE: MC Slim JB Nov 20, 2013 12:21 PM

      Slim, I've seen you write this about dining room noise before (point 1 above), and while I'm sure there is some truth to it, as an acoustics professional I can tell you that loud restaurants very often happen by accident. Many restaurants are designed with the thought that they'll be pleasantly "lively," and the proprietors are surprised and disappointed when the result is louder than anticipated and their customers describe it as "deafening."

      Why does this happen? Because most restaurateurs and many architects simply don't know how to design a dining room to be not-too-loud and aren't willing to pay the relatively small fee to an expert to help them hit their target.

      Sometimes the accident is to our benefit, like at Bergamot, which inherited a high-ceilinged space and an acoustical tile ceiling which they touched up to look nice rather than removing. The result is a very nice sounding room, more or less by accident.

      I will name one dining room that I know was designed with acoustics in mind, and with very good results: ICOB. (I was not involved.)

      1. re: jajjguy
        Allstonian RE: jajjguy Nov 20, 2013 12:33 PM

        But what about the restaurants that are have been deafeningly loud for years and years?

        1. re: jajjguy
          MC Slim JB RE: jajjguy Nov 20, 2013 12:53 PM

          I have a tough time buying this notion of unintended noise if the restaurateur is not a first-timer.

          Aquitaine Group offers a good example: it built Gaslight, stealing a concept / design / website template from a famous New York restaurant (Balthazar) and created a punishingly loud restaurant. Then it built Cinquecento, stealing a concept / design from another famous New York restaurant (Maialino) and built another punishingly loud restaurant.

          Management claimed early on that it would "fix" Cinquecento to make it less deafening. A year later, I'm still waiting to see anything different on that score. I don't believe it's unintentional.


          1. re: MC Slim JB
            Bellachefa RE: MC Slim JB Nov 20, 2013 01:00 PM

            Do you have proof of these accusations that they stole architectural etc? That's a pretty rough thing to post, unless the Aquitaine Group has admitted to all of the things you just posted.

            1. re: Bellachefa
              MC Slim JB RE: Bellachefa Nov 20, 2013 02:14 PM

              You may say they "took inspiration" from those restaurants, if you prefer it to "stole". It's not like Danny Meyer or Keith McNally is suing for copyright infringement, but to my eye, the lifts are pretty obvious if you've been to the originals, and the Aquitaine Group doesn't hide the fact that it trawls Manhattan for ideas. (I say, if you're going to steal, you might as well steal from the best.) The virtual cloning of Balthazar's website by Gaslight was noted with some amusement here when it debuted.


              1. re: MC Slim JB
                C. Hamster RE: MC Slim JB Nov 21, 2013 12:35 PM

                I go to Balthazar more than I go to Gaslight (which is on my never again list at this point) and it's pretty clear that gaslight is a poor aspiration of Balthazar.

              2. re: Bellachefa
                hotoynoodle RE: Bellachefa Nov 20, 2013 03:26 PM

                am sorry, but your post made me actually lol. gaslight and cinquecento are mini-me's.

              3. re: MC Slim JB
                jajjguy RE: MC Slim JB Nov 20, 2013 01:48 PM

                Most of the places I'm thinking of are first or second timers. You may be right about certain large owners. But I can think of at least two larger-owner places where excessive loudness was a surprise and steps were taken to improve things (Wagamama Harvard Sq, Tavern Burlington). It's not always cynicism driving things in the wrong direction, it's often simple ignorance or inattention.

                1. re: MC Slim JB
                  StriperGuy RE: MC Slim JB Nov 20, 2013 02:07 PM

                  As a one time investor in a small resto myself, I disagree with your view. Folks often just don't think of it. They buddy I invested with had 3-4 prior restos that did not have an issue. The spaces themselves just weren't noisy.

                  His 4th establishment was a problem, eventually some well place acoustic materials on the ceiling helped the problem.

                  I think other than at the very high end, most folks building out a resto just hope for the best on the noise score and then put out fires after the fact if they have the dough.

                  I don't doubt that SOME like it noisy for the afore-stated reason, but for most I think it is just a case of noise roulette.

                  1. re: StriperGuy
                    hotoynoodle RE: StriperGuy Nov 20, 2013 03:25 PM

                    as mentioned in the op, teatro has taken measures to address the din. who else has done so after-the-fact? when designing a space full of hard surfaces and mostly devoid of textiles? um... duh. if a designer can't put this simple equation together, than what the what?

                    i know steak-houses are purposefully designed to be loud, but most of those (here anyway) are chains and know exactly what they are doing.

                    1. re: StriperGuy
                      Jolyon Helterman RE: StriperGuy Nov 21, 2013 02:08 AM

                      Not to mention that cookery, FOH service, and acoustical analysis aren't always a bundled skill set.

                      1. re: Jolyon Helterman
                        StriperGuy RE: Jolyon Helterman Nov 21, 2013 07:59 AM


                      2. re: StriperGuy
                        jajjguy RE: StriperGuy Nov 21, 2013 12:33 PM

                        Exactly. Of course it doesn't have to be noise roulette. There are people who know how to do this (ahem), and they can be brought on quite affordably.

                      3. re: MC Slim JB
                        9lives RE: MC Slim JB Nov 21, 2013 01:07 PM

                        I haven't been to Gaslight but I have been to Balthazar; which I enjoy.

                        The concept of Balthazar is not unique and is quite common in Paris. It seems that if Aquitaine copied the concept from Balthazar, you'd have to say that Balthazar copied the concept from it's French predecessors.

                        1. re: 9lives
                          hotoynoodle RE: 9lives Nov 21, 2013 07:10 PM

                          of course balthazar copied from places in france. so did restaurant zinc here back in the day and now bar zinc in lenox. imitation being the sincerest form of flattery and all that.

                          however, copying even the website design is a bit much. :P

                          1. re: hotoynoodle
                            justbeingpolite RE: hotoynoodle Nov 22, 2013 05:17 AM

                            I've always thought of Eastern Standard Kitchen as the better copier of Balthazar in Boston, anyway.

                            In a good way.

                    2. re: MC Slim JB
                      aregularjoe RE: MC Slim JB Nov 22, 2013 09:31 AM

                      Sorelina is a huge space that is readably quiet. Somebody did great job with the acoustic treatment of this space.

                      1. re: aregularjoe
                        hotoynoodle RE: aregularjoe Nov 22, 2013 09:36 PM

                        celeste cooper.

                    3. c
                      csammy RE: Blumie Nov 16, 2013 11:26 AM

                      All restaurants charge too much for wine.

                      Truth: While most do, there are some trend setters trying to change that. Silvertone, Legal (Park Square) and Troquet are just a few attempting to debunk this.

                      1 Reply
                      1. re: csammy
                        hotoynoodle RE: csammy Nov 17, 2013 11:48 AM

                        all those places have had their pricing policies in place over 10 years. very few others have followed suit.

                      2. g
                        grant.cook RE: Blumie Nov 16, 2013 11:29 AM

                        I'd say we need to put to rest the myth that there is actually any clam in a clamcake

                        3 Replies
                        1. re: grant.cook
                          Allstonian RE: grant.cook Nov 16, 2013 02:54 PM

                          I thought "clam" cakes were a RI thing, not Boston.

                          1. re: Allstonian
                            BostonZest RE: Allstonian Nov 16, 2013 03:11 PM

                            They are but last year the Cod Squad Truck did some clam cakes that were full of clams and wonderful!


                          2. re: grant.cook
                            Karl S RE: grant.cook Nov 17, 2013 03:28 PM

                            Well, clamcakes are RI, not Boston, and I've had bits of clam in clamcakes in RI. Not much, but definitely bits.

                          3. c
                            cambridgedoctpr RE: Blumie Nov 16, 2013 04:48 PM

                            with island creek, neptune, belle island, summer shack, the Chinese restaurants with fish tanks, various sushi places, Boston has plenty of good seafood.

                            31 Replies
                            1. re: cambridgedoctpr
                              CapeCodGuy RE: cambridgedoctpr Nov 16, 2013 05:35 PM

                              I sort of disagree. Both Portsmouth NH, Cape Cod and the entire Maine coast has so much terrific seafood. Personally, I wasn't impressed with Belle Isle finding it a notch below of at least a dozen places on the Cape or the North Shore. And not everyone is as enthralled with Neptune, although I'll admit to only a small sampling of 2 hot lobster rolls. The first was nirvana, the second disgusting. I can see where visitors coming to the city could have higher expectations than reality when it comes to seafood-centric choices in the city.

                              1. re: CapeCodGuy
                                CportJ RE: CapeCodGuy Nov 19, 2013 11:12 AM

                                I know that you know the good places on the Cape, but the Cape certainly does not have terrific seafood across the board. Just about every restaurant on the Cape serves some seafood, and most of them are not so good.

                                Boston has some top notch oyster bars where you can get a great variety of East Coast oysters that you probably can't find at more than a handful of other restaurants anywhere, including from lots of smaller Massachusetts oyster farms and some from Maine and Rhode Island as well. I think this has had some positive spillover effects, and now you can get Island Creeks or Wellfleets or other good local oysters at most good restaurants in Boston/Cambridge. Similarly, most good restaurants in Boston/Cambridge have a very good fish (and/or shellfish) entree on the menu at all times.

                                San Fran still has touristy not-so-great seafood places near Fisherman's Wharf, but I would not say that vitiates San Fran's claim to having good seafood.

                                1. re: CportJ
                                  CapeCodGuy RE: CportJ Nov 19, 2013 11:42 AM

                                  Oh, I never claimed that the Cape has great seafood restaurants across the board. In fact, out of the over 1,100 restaurants serving our population of only 220,000 folks, I'd say the far majority are severely lacking in quality ingredients or preparation. I was mostly commenting about the accolades given to Belle Isle, which pales compared to MANY of our summer shacks. And although most raw bar tends to focus on locally available options, you won't find fresher at our better places. There are dozens of places where if you order oysters or clams for dinner, they were harvested from local beds that morning. That's just not the case in the city. Sure, there are great restaurants in the city which have a few great seafood dishes, but not what a visitor expects or can find in almost every town on the Cape. There are many in the MidCape area alone, whose menus are primarily seafood (not of the fried variety) where you will have exquisite and varied preparations of local and non-local shellfish and finfish.

                                  1. re: CapeCodGuy
                                    CportJ RE: CapeCodGuy Nov 19, 2013 12:59 PM

                                    I'm not sure I can count dozens of Cape restaurants in the morning-harvest category. If that is the case, I think it may well be a tribute to whoever is the predominant Cape shellfish supplier rather than many of the restaurants themselves, which for the most part don't seem to go out of their way ingredient-wise. I would love to see your list of exquisite seafood places in Mid-Cape, and not as a challenge but as a list for me to use next summer!

                                    Even within the clam shack category, I don't think Belle Isle is below the average place on the Cape, and to be fair, the best of the Cape places are among the best anywhere.

                                    1. re: CportJ
                                      CapeCodGuy RE: CportJ Nov 19, 2013 05:11 PM

                                      I don't want to take this thread too far afield as it's headed there already. There's much discussion on the Southern NE board of Cape eateries, both good and bad. I will say for the best in seafood,in the mid-Cape area alone, try Fin in Dennis, Brewster Fish House, Regatta Cotuit, Cape Sea Grill and 28 Atlantic in Harwich. I agree with your assessment of Belle Isle, better than the average CC shack but falls short of our best ones, Marathon, The Original Seafood Restaurant, Sir Crickets, Cooke's, The Clam Shack, Cobies, Arnold's, Friendly Fisherman, Mac's, Chatham Fish, Spanky's, are all better by a healthy margin.

                              2. re: cambridgedoctpr
                                valcfield RE: cambridgedoctpr Nov 16, 2013 06:23 PM

                                Agree boston has some good seafood, but i also do think there is this myth of Boston either being destination dining for seafood, or, more accurately, that (certain kinds of) seafood are our regional 'thing' the way NYC has bagels, LA has tacos, maryland has blue crabs, etc.

                                after all, how many visitors on this board ask where to go for clam chowder or similar? And, to speak to it being a myth, i imagine i'm not the only one who cringes at the question, because i don't have a great answer, and I also wish i could steer them towards all the other things i think we legitimately do well.

                                Of course, people in nyc always talk about how their bagels aren't good anymore either... but we won't get into that.

                                1. re: valcfield
                                  hargau RE: valcfield Nov 16, 2013 09:15 PM

                                  Friends from FL eat "schrod" almost daily when they visit since they just don't serve it like we do here down there. Baked Schrod or even the fish& chips that is popular around here is not popular/available everywhere apparently... (or if it is, it is very pricey)

                                  1. re: valcfield
                                    mchametzky RE: valcfield Nov 19, 2013 08:27 AM

                                    I always liked the Oyster Stew at Durgin Park, the raw bar and fried (belly) clams at Union Oyster House (preferably taken out in a white cardboard container) and eaten with fingers on a bench outside the Haymarket.
                                    Some may say that these things are not within their lexicon of "seafood"-many people seem more likely to think of lobster, flounder, cod, etc. as seafood-at least in my experience.
                                    However, good fried clams (the belly kind) are hard to find outside New England. Even in New England really great fried clams seem rare excepting some of the shanty (not meant pejoratively, just a description) type places that one sometimes discovers along the coast.

                                  2. re: cambridgedoctpr
                                    MC Slim JB RE: cambridgedoctpr Nov 16, 2013 10:23 PM

                                    I have been arguing Blumie's basic point for years: that the gap between reputation and reality in seafood restaurants here has been huge for a long time.

                                    When you have to point to Chinatown for some of the best seafood in town (as I have long done), especially when you want locally-caught species, that bespeaks a weakness in the scene overall.

                                    Things got a *lot* better in just the past few years, arguably starting with the advent of Neptune -- consider the explosion in quality raw bar, for one thing -- and I think pending additions like Row 34 and Ostra will elevate the standard further. It's about bloody time.


                                    1. re: MC Slim JB
                                      hyde RE: MC Slim JB Nov 17, 2013 03:29 AM

                                      Did it have anything to do with the priorities of the harbor traffic? Possibly, historically, Boston downtown recieved hard goods while Gloucester and New Bedford were "fishing towns".

                                      1. re: MC Slim JB
                                        Bob Dobalina RE: MC Slim JB Nov 17, 2013 04:09 AM

                                        What mainline "Boston" ie the touristy areas is missing - and what 80% of people who think of Boston as a seafood town are looking for when they visit, is a place like Moulton's. This is why the buses still pull up to No Name. If Moulton's or a place of that style opened a cheap fried seafood emporium anywhere on the Freedom Trail, it would rake and also be shockingly unique for the main parts of Boston. Why nothing like this exists boggles my mind.

                                        Btw, thanks Blumie - great thread.

                                        1. re: Bob Dobalina
                                          phatchris RE: Bob Dobalina Nov 17, 2013 04:30 AM

                                          I completely agree, The Sail Loft is mediocre and does a great business in the summer with tourist, as does Joes next door.

                                          1. re: phatchris
                                            trufflehound RE: phatchris Nov 18, 2013 08:43 AM

                                            A view anywhere= a license to charge too much for mediocrity

                                          2. re: Bob Dobalina
                                            hyde RE: Bob Dobalina Nov 17, 2013 10:23 AM

                                            A while back i suggested to friends from Seattle to eat at Morses fish in the South End, then drinks at The Gallows and then a show at Johnny D's in Sommerville.

                                            You would have thought I had scheduled a tour of our finest establishments. They were thrilled.

                                            Granted, it was flawless late summer/early fall evening which can make the South End look like a set to people from out of town. I took the praise nonetheless.

                                          3. re: MC Slim JB
                                            ScotchandSirloin RE: MC Slim JB Nov 17, 2013 10:04 AM

                                            Are their particular types of local whole fish and particular types of preperations at particular restaurants in Chinatown that you would recommend? I always find it a crapshoot because I don't know what I am doing.

                                            1. re: ScotchandSirloin
                                              teezeetoo RE: ScotchandSirloin Nov 19, 2013 09:09 AM

                                              If you are looking for whole fish, I like the steamed whole fish, usually bass or blackfish, at Peach Farm (at most good Chinese seafood places they'll have a version of this). I do not like tilapia and I can't swear that the bass is local. I also like the steamed oysters with black bean sauce and the spicy eel but that's not a "whole fish" answer!

                                              1. re: teezeetoo
                                                ScotchandSirloin RE: teezeetoo Nov 20, 2013 03:36 PM


                                            2. re: MC Slim JB
                                              cambridgedoctpr RE: MC Slim JB Nov 18, 2013 01:39 PM

                                              ok, let me add that i think that O Ya and Uni Bar are really good. and there are plenty of others that are chow-worthy. And Courthouse and New Deal are great places to buy seafood - and there are a number of others. too.

                                              And I think that the seafood in C-town is the equal to what I have had in Manhattan or SF.

                                              And i have had good seafood dishes at other places, at which seafood is not the specialty.

                                              Wipe out the top tier restaurants in NYC; we look pretty good in comparison.

                                              And I lived in Palo Alto and Chicago and travel to NYC frequently and so am not a Boston booster by nature.

                                            3. re: cambridgedoctpr
                                              Parsnipity RE: cambridgedoctpr Nov 17, 2013 05:48 AM

                                              Well, we can all go round and round about whether Boston restaurants' seafood is up to the level we'd like it to be. But go eat in a bunch of middle-of-the-country restaurants and order their seafood and tell me ours isn't better. My husband grew up in Minnesota and a trip to Red Lobster for a birthday was literally their only option for getting lobster. This has possibly changed in the 20 years since he left, but you still can not just walk into a local supermarket and buy a live lobster. Of course there are some restaurants in the Twin Cities area where there is a good piece of fish to be had (although it's quite possibly walleye). And of course there are some bad pieces of fish to be had around here. But on the whole, our seafood is pretty darn good so I would have to say this one's debunked.

                                              1. re: Parsnipity
                                                CapeCodGuy RE: Parsnipity Nov 17, 2013 06:52 AM

                                                I don't think anyone would argue that Boston's seafood scene is not better than the worst one can find, ie: the mid section of this country. I would no more expect to find a great wealth of excellent seafood in Minn. but I would expect to have many excellent choices for quality beef and pork. Just as hargu pointed out, his Florida guests feast on schrod. That's not because they don't fry or broil fish in FLA, it's because what is local is warm water species like grouper and snapper. that don't taste like our cold water haddock, cod and flounder. I think the point is, Boston is close to the source so one could reasonably expect it's seafood to be on par, and even surpass, that available in New Bedford, Fall River, The Cape, and the North Shore and beyond. It's not. Myth lives on......

                                                1. re: CapeCodGuy
                                                  pikawicca RE: CapeCodGuy Nov 18, 2013 01:20 PM

                                                  Heads up: Great fish can be had here in "the mid section of this country;" it's flown in next day air from both coasts. There are a handful of restaurants that feature fresh fish in my town, just about as good as any fish anywhere. (I recently had the best bluefish of my life served to me.) We pay a steep premium, however.

                                                2. re: Parsnipity
                                                  jgg13 RE: Parsnipity Nov 17, 2013 07:20 AM

                                                  "This has possibly changed in the 20 years ..."

                                                  By and large the last 20-30 years has seen a tectonic shift in seafood availability throughout the country.

                                                  With flash freezing and all of that, if it's not literally fresh off the boat you're probably getting about the same quality here as you would anywhere else the fish might get distributed.

                                                  1. re: jgg13
                                                    CapeCodGuy RE: jgg13 Nov 17, 2013 07:22 AM

                                                    True, but in many better seafood restaurants, it IS fresh off the boat. And that's night and day from flash frozen.

                                                    1. re: jgg13
                                                      hotoynoodle RE: jgg13 Nov 17, 2013 11:46 AM

                                                      yes, shipping and handling have improved but the populations have dropped precipitously. fish once considered trash, like skate and mackerel, now command premium pricing and good luck even getting local cod. this puts much local fish out of the realm of moderately-priced menus.

                                                      with 10's of 1000's of tourists cramming places like no-name and the barking crab is the seafood elsewhere still worse?

                                                    2. re: Parsnipity
                                                      C. Hamster RE: Parsnipity Nov 17, 2013 09:47 AM

                                                      There was a lobster restaurant south of the Twin Cities in the late 60's and 70's.

                                                      Even as a child I found that really odd.

                                                      1. re: C. Hamster
                                                        Bellachefa RE: C. Hamster Nov 17, 2013 10:21 AM

                                                        But now you know that Pan Am had added cold storage to its planes by then, forever changing food sourcing, so perhaps the restaurant wasn't that funky?

                                                        1. re: Bellachefa
                                                          NE_Wombat RE: Bellachefa Nov 17, 2013 11:09 AM

                                                          Not that it makes much difference to your point, but I think the lobsters would have ridden the last 400 miles on a refrigerated truck from O'Hare in Chicago. I don't think Pan Am flew to MSP in the '60s and '70s. I do think that Pan Am Express (via Republic) did, but that was in the mid-'80s.

                                                          1. re: Bellachefa
                                                            C. Hamster RE: Bellachefa Nov 17, 2013 12:15 PM

                                                            Yes. Frank Abagnale probably trafficked in them back in the day,

                                                            You make a good point.

                                                            In addition to that lobster place, I remember my parents ordering lobster at a Minneapolis "supper club" in the mid-1960's

                                                            1. re: C. Hamster
                                                              Bellachefa RE: C. Hamster Nov 17, 2013 12:31 PM


                                                        2. re: Parsnipity
                                                          Prav RE: Parsnipity Nov 18, 2013 05:16 AM

                                                          My experience growing up in Michigan in the 80s and 90s is that every big name supermarket (Kroger, Meijer, etc) has had a tank of live lobsters, and they still do.

                                                          1. re: Parsnipity
                                                            Chef Bwana RE: Parsnipity Nov 21, 2013 09:43 PM

                                                            Forget about seafood, just post a pic of a decent pizza on your Facebook page, and watch your friends castaway to flyover country come circling evil dead style and intoning "pizza!". And if you can't trust the pizza, would you even think of trying the seafood?

                                                        3. Karl S RE: Blumie Nov 17, 2013 03:33 PM

                                                          But does Boston have Mexican food worth trying for out of towners who come from places with *excellent* Mexican food and are seeking the same here? I am not so sure. Boston doesn't have a notable Mexican ex-pat population, for a variety of reasons I won't dilate on here; our Latino population is dominated by other nationalities.

                                                          As for seafood: a lot of our finfish is From Away rather than closer waters, given the collapse of so much of our notable fin fisheries (while you can get lovely finfish, we simply don't have anywhere near enough to satisfy local demand). Shellfish is a different story, but even then demand for some classic local items (local clams) far outstrips local supply in the peak season, for example. The best thing some of us can do is to be careful not to encourage the further depletion of local seafood. It's sad to think that Boston's Fish Pier used to be an international lodestar for fish; not anymore (but it's much prettier now!).

                                                          10 Replies
                                                          1. re: Karl S
                                                            Boston_Otter RE: Karl S Nov 17, 2013 04:50 PM

                                                            Boston does not have a widely-available selection of high-quality authentic province-specific Mexican food, no. The better-quality Mexican you'll find in the area is usually either just "Mexican" or creative-fusion style sort of thing. Someone used to the easy access of high quality Mexican street food, taquerias, and restaurants in LA, San Francisco, or San Diego will be disappointed here, and anyone looking for good quality Tex-Mex or New Mexican/Southwestern style food will definitely miss out.

                                                            1. re: Boston_Otter
                                                              C. Hamster RE: Boston_Otter Nov 17, 2013 05:58 PM

                                                              Some of the best Mexican food in the US is found in Chicagoland.

                                                              1. re: C. Hamster
                                                                Karl S RE: C. Hamster Nov 18, 2013 01:38 AM

                                                                Yes. Big Mexican ex-pat presence in that region, unlike here. Also excellent Mexican food can be found along the northern shores of Lake Erie in Ontario's agricultural wonderland.

                                                                1. re: C. Hamster
                                                                  cambridgedoctpr RE: C. Hamster Nov 18, 2013 01:42 PM

                                                                  i am from chicago and lived near SF; i agree with you C. Hamster. In my mind there is no comparison; Boston is not a destination for Mexican food. That said, i like Tenoch.

                                                              2. re: Karl S
                                                                Bob Dobalina RE: Karl S Nov 18, 2013 02:26 AM

                                                                Boston has Mexican worth trying if you are an out-of-towner from say New Hampshire.

                                                                1. re: Bob Dobalina
                                                                  Uncle Yabai RE: Bob Dobalina Nov 18, 2013 03:21 AM

                                                                  That's a nice example of damning with faint praise.

                                                                  1. re: Uncle Yabai
                                                                    CapeCodGuy RE: Uncle Yabai Nov 18, 2013 05:40 AM

                                                                    No worse that declaring our fish restaurants are better than those in Minnesota.

                                                                    1. re: CapeCodGuy
                                                                      Uncle Yabai RE: CapeCodGuy Nov 18, 2013 07:36 AM

                                                                      I don't know, the idea of an "out-of-towner" from "say New Hampshire" has that hick-from-the-sticks ring to it that "Minnesota fish restaurants" doesn't have.

                                                                      Besides, Minnesota may have some good fresh-water fish restaurants, for all I know. Don't know, never been there, and have no intention of going, either.

                                                                2. re: Karl S
                                                                  hotoynoodle RE: Karl S Nov 18, 2013 09:31 AM

                                                                  if i came from a place with a vibrant mexican food scene, it wouldn't be my first stab for meals out in another city.

                                                                  i don't look for clam chowder while in denver or bbq while in oregon either.

                                                                  1. re: hotoynoodle
                                                                    Karl S RE: hotoynoodle Nov 18, 2013 11:03 AM

                                                                    Well, I am with you on both points, but we get a ton of out of towners over the years looking here for their own local specialities when visiting Boston. This dynamic is not unique to Boston, I should hasten to add.

                                                                3. StriperGuy RE: Blumie Nov 18, 2013 01:00 PM

                                                                  Here's one:

                                                                  The whole myth that Boston restaurants just can't deliver world class service, and that in general Boston wait staff and even bar tenders err on the abrupt and surly side... I think that is a total myth!

                                                                  Not really, just joking, it's mostly true ;-)

                                                                  26 Replies
                                                                  1. re: StriperGuy
                                                                    Karl S RE: StriperGuy Nov 18, 2013 02:37 PM

                                                                    LOL. It's just that too many Bostonians wouldn't know world class service if it smacked them upside the head, and we tolerate a lower level of service.

                                                                    1. re: StriperGuy
                                                                      lergnom RE: StriperGuy Nov 18, 2013 06:11 PM

                                                                      I tend to blame management more than servers. For example and as a contrast, in Chicago last week, we regularly got all our food at the exact same time, with it all being hot, even in a place playing very loud heavy metal music, with enough hands to help the server. Same in really other places, from really nice across the gamut. That says to me restaurants are run well and that means there is a general standard of service organization that has filtered through the industry in that area.

                                                                      This is not as true in Boston. Some places deliver good service but this is not a general standard expected from restaurants. That is the fault of management.

                                                                      1. re: lergnom
                                                                        cambridgedoctpr RE: lergnom Nov 18, 2013 06:25 PM

                                                                        how about this being our fault for tolerating poor service?

                                                                        1. re: cambridgedoctpr
                                                                          Bellachefa RE: cambridgedoctpr Nov 18, 2013 06:35 PM

                                                                          Why on earth would you blame the patron for poor service? That's just crazy talk. Either they are properly trained and managed or they're not.

                                                                          I recall years ago going to an Emeril restaurant in NOLA. I commented that Todd English could learn a thing or two about training and running a restaurant. The crew in NOLA was always in motion, and when they had a few moments they were polishing glasses. Now I haven't been to one of Emeril's places in a few years, so don't know the current state of service, but we all know English's demise.

                                                                          1. re: Bellachefa
                                                                            cambridgedoctpr RE: Bellachefa Nov 18, 2013 06:55 PM

                                                                            i think that it is in part due to what we expect or at least tolerate.

                                                                            1. re: cambridgedoctpr
                                                                              StriperGuy RE: cambridgedoctpr Nov 19, 2013 05:14 AM

                                                                              Totally disagree

                                                                              1. re: StriperGuy
                                                                                cambridgedoctpr RE: StriperGuy Nov 19, 2013 06:10 AM

                                                                                if you tell managers that you will not be back because of service issues, i think that they will listen.

                                                                                1. re: cambridgedoctpr
                                                                                  StriperGuy RE: cambridgedoctpr Nov 19, 2013 06:35 AM

                                                                                  I think the issue is a larger cultural one here in Boston/New England.

                                                                                  Try telling Todd English you had lousy service in one of his restos.. I am sure you will get a very caring thoughtful response (joking).

                                                                                  Any decent manager who actually cared about service would make it part of the culture of the restaurant. If you go to a resto and 6 out of 8 servers don't seem to give a hoot, there is nothing you can tell the manager that is going to make him or her actually care, and change the culture of the organization.

                                                                                  In many ways I feel Durgin Park really represents the New England view of service "oh, I have to give you dinner? well here, crash, as your plate lands on the table."

                                                                                  That world view isn't going to change with a few well-intentioned suggestions to the GM...

                                                                                  1. re: StriperGuy
                                                                                    teezeetoo RE: StriperGuy Nov 19, 2013 06:52 AM

                                                                                    I have been to many Danny Meyer restaurants, starting with one of his oldest, Union Square, and they uniformly have wonderful service: attentive without being smarmy, interested in your answers to whether everything is ok, and clearly well-trained. I attribute that to his business model. In Boston, I have always had excellent service at Eastern Standard Kitchen and, again, I attribute it to the training and expectations of management. Good waitstaff is a reflection of management expectation. And they should be treated and paid as the valuable professionals they are.

                                                                                    1. re: teezeetoo
                                                                                      MC Slim JB RE: teezeetoo Nov 19, 2013 07:41 AM

                                                                                      Yeah, Meyer literally wrote the book on modern restaurant hospitality http://www.amazon.com/Setting-Table-T... . I imagine it is required reading for staffers at many of our better restaurants. I've had very strong service experiences at his New York places I've visited, too, even the stupid Shake Shack.


                                                                                      1. re: MC Slim JB
                                                                                        Bellachefa RE: MC Slim JB Nov 19, 2013 08:03 AM

                                                                                        I've never read it, but always enjoyed his places and staff. Thanks for the reading rec!

                                                                                    2. re: StriperGuy
                                                                                      MC Slim JB RE: StriperGuy Nov 19, 2013 06:53 AM

                                                                                      Quite agree that quality service springs from a culture that is ingrained into the staff from the top down. Love Barbara Lynch's restaurants or not, I think that is one of their virtues. I'd say the same for Garrett Harker's little empire, too. There are pockets of it around.

                                                                                      I wonder if there's a combination of factors at work for the places that don't cultivate this: it's not enough of a differentiator in this market to be worth the investment, the labor pool is too reliant on fairly young, inexperienced servers with little commitment to the industry (think undergrads), the low minimum wage and poor tips on smaller check sizes thins the ranks of quality servers below the fine dining level, and so on.

                                                                                      Maybe a more demanding public might change things, but I'm unclear on how the incentives would work. Customers stay home, so restaurateurs up their service game? That seems unlikely to me.


                                                                                      1. re: MC Slim JB
                                                                                        valcfield RE: MC Slim JB Nov 19, 2013 07:44 AM

                                                                                        To provoke a large scale change, i assume it would have to be a confluence of cultural trend and a population that can support a huge restaurant density: presuming we continue to value food quality, and say, price, more than service (as a general), than you'd probably need to have enough restaurants within any given niche of price/quality that consumers can start choosing between places based on service.

                                                                                        that said, i'm honestly a bit skeptical of these comparisons of Boston to other major cities regarding service, for a few reasons.

                                                                                        1. i think its a fine/intelligible argument to say a certain *kind* of service doesn't exist in Boston or in a certain city: that is--agree or not--one can sensibly argue we don't have any places that provide old-school french style, fine-dining service. Those places are few and far enough between anyway that you could probably empirically verify its existence or nonexistence.

                                                                                        But the arguments above that seem to imply there exists some sort of monolithic 'service culture' that is pervasive across the entire restaurant industry of a city seems overly simplistic/highly improbable. And, even if such a thing did exist, our capability to rigorously make such judgements, and then go and make such a general comparison to *another city's* service culture, seems incredibly unlikely, if not impossible.

                                                                                        If you have felt as though you have found a culture that is pervasive across the kinds of restaurants you eat at, and this bothers you, i might suggest you find some new places to visit...

                                                                                        2. in particular, for those making comparisons based on visits to other cities, these sorts of comparisons are particularly unfair to your hometown: most likely anyone on this board visiting a city has very targeted places they are going to because you don't want to waste your chance at experiencing another city's restaurants.

                                                                                        as a result, it's a *very* skewed sample set to compare that highly curated list from your destination city versus the kind of more experimental try-a-place-out kind of eating you do in your home city. To try and compare the two as though they were the same will never end favorably for the home team.

                                                                                        3. admittedly anecdotally, i found the criticisms of bartenders in particular interesting. At least on the high end, every city seems to complain about the trend of bartenders who are more focused on drinks and intent on ignoring customers. So i'd a. hardly say that's a boston issue and b. insofar as one looks at high end bars, i think places like backbar, hawthorne, et al have decidedly good emphasis on customer focus. Granted, Drink is an exception to that rule (in the few times i've been), though there i think it would be hard to parse out what is the result of clientele/the space as opposed to a service 'culture.'

                                                                                        In any event, as i've indicated, i'm hesitant to make actual comparisons of entire industries city to city, but i think this is, at least, an argument for why such generalizations are impossible, if not an actual argument in favor of Boston's bar culture.

                                                                                        1. re: valcfield
                                                                                          MC Slim JB RE: valcfield Nov 19, 2013 07:51 AM

                                                                                          Agree strongly with all of these points.


                                                                                          1. re: valcfield
                                                                                            hotoynoodle RE: valcfield Nov 19, 2013 08:12 AM

                                                                                            "If you have felt as though you have found a culture that is pervasive across the kinds of restaurants you eat at, and this bothers you, i might suggest you find some new places to visit..."

                                                                                            this times a millionty.

                                                                                            1. re: valcfield
                                                                                              mwk RE: valcfield Nov 19, 2013 03:01 PM

                                                                                              Just as an aside, the only times in my life where I had service that was so execrable that I purposely left a 25 cent tip in protest, were both in Manhattan. I'm not talking about bad food and I'm not talking about incompetence, but flat out malicious and/or unethical conduct.

                                                                                              My point being that I agree with you, it isn't a "Boston" thing at all.

                                                                                            2. re: MC Slim JB
                                                                                              hotoynoodle RE: MC Slim JB Nov 19, 2013 07:57 AM

                                                                                              we've had this conversation before and groups like harker's and the columbus group come from the same mindset on service as does meyer. (btw, harker was instrumental in building the service culture for lynch's gruppo.) however, the pool of talented servers is barely enough to staff the restaurants of those 3 companies and it's what? not even 20 spots out of how many in the city?

                                                                                              we do not have a class of professional servers, nor do i foresee us ever getting one with the giant population of students willing to work for less $$$$ than an actual adult needs to live in the boston area.

                                                                                              don't forget too that many of our better places are chef-owned and there is often a conceit that the food trumps any other downfalls guests may encounter.

                                                                                              i, for one, DO talk with my wallet. for example, i wanted to love marliave from before it opened. its service and cocktail execution have been a consistent disappointment so i stopped trying, but i suppose for plenty of others it's a convenient spot or they have lesser expectations, so from what i hear it remains busy enough.

                                                                                            3. re: StriperGuy
                                                                                              Chris VR RE: StriperGuy Nov 19, 2013 09:21 AM

                                                                                              It's been a while since I've been to Durgin Park but I actually found the waitresses to be quite nice and friendly on my visits there.

                                                                                              1. re: Chris VR
                                                                                                StriperGuy RE: Chris VR Nov 19, 2013 10:38 AM

                                                                                                I actually agree, some of the DP waitresses ARE quite nice. I was really using the DP stereotype as representative of New England attitudes towards service in general.

                                                                                      2. re: Bellachefa
                                                                                        robwat36 RE: Bellachefa Nov 19, 2013 05:11 AM

                                                                                        When you consider the tone of many posts by the people complaining of "surly, abrupt" service from bartenders and servers "in general," it speaks volumes. Any human interaction is a two-way street.

                                                                                        1. re: robwat36
                                                                                          StriperGuy RE: robwat36 Nov 19, 2013 05:16 AM

                                                                                          The same people who said it was surly and abrupt service in Boston said have great service in New York Chicago, LA, I disagree the issue is Boston.

                                                                                          1. re: StriperGuy
                                                                                            jjbourgeois RE: StriperGuy Nov 19, 2013 10:23 AM

                                                                                            Having traveled around the country I've always found the service in Boston lacking. I had more professional service in a diner in Austin Texas than from the staff at Rialto. It's one of the reasons the food culture is hurting in Boston.

                                                                                            1. re: StriperGuy
                                                                                              retrofabulousity RE: StriperGuy Nov 22, 2013 01:11 PM

                                                                                              This is true. I am not from here and haven't lived here nearly as long as many places in which I have lived and have had very bad service more often here than in all of the others put together.

                                                                                              I have had this happen at VERY high end restaurants here in ways where I never had it happen in all my years anywhere else, including recently at a board favorite.

                                                                                              I have been waiting to post on it here until I see whether the management resolves the issue. I complained and they have been taking MANY weeks to deal with it and I have had to call them back multiple times, always being polite while they have never once called me even though the fault is theirs and some of their people have spoken rudely to me.

                                                                                              Boston has a lot of great qualities but the last thing which comes to mind is great service.

                                                                                              1. re: retrofabulousity
                                                                                                StriperGuy RE: retrofabulousity Nov 22, 2013 01:20 PM

                                                                                                My point precisely.

                                                                                          2. re: Bellachefa
                                                                                            hotoynoodle RE: Bellachefa Nov 19, 2013 05:54 AM

                                                                                            the service at olive's was the least of its problems.

                                                                                        2. re: lergnom
                                                                                          lergnom RE: lergnom Nov 19, 2013 08:00 AM

                                                                                          I specifically used Chicago because it also is a city with hordes of younger people working for relatively short periods of time in these service jobs. I also have a kid who does this in LA, which also has hordes of young people, etc.

                                                                                          The difference is management, not the people.

                                                                                          I note this all the time. When fries come out cold, it's the management system that lets that happen. When the kitchen sends out entrees a few at a time, that is a management failure. When the tables are cleaned off properly, that is a management failure.

                                                                                      3. p
                                                                                        ptrefler RE: Blumie Nov 22, 2013 05:30 AM

                                                                                        Good Mexican food in Boston? Where? I am from San Francisco but I have been here for 20 years. Still haven't found the good Mexican food. I totally agree with you about the seafood. I guess that's why you have to plan about a year ahead to get into Island Creek!

                                                                                        4 Replies
                                                                                        1. re: ptrefler
                                                                                          hyde RE: ptrefler Nov 22, 2013 02:18 PM

                                                                                          I have raved about this before and so will again.

                                                                                          I am always surprised when people imagine that Boston will have great Mexican food. There is not a large population of Mexicans in the Bay State.

                                                                                          "I went to London and the BBQ was terrible!"

                                                                                          "Living in Seattle I cant find any decent Haitian food!"

                                                                                          I can scratch the itch at Taquiera el Amigo but I have no illusions that it rivals L.A.

                                                                                          1. re: ptrefler
                                                                                            9lives RE: ptrefler Nov 22, 2013 03:10 PM

                                                                                            Have you tried Angela's Cafe in East Boston?


                                                                                            Also in E Boston, I've been to Tacqueria Jalisco. I thought the overall food (chicken, beef, pork) was was ok but the house made salsas were terrific. Sort of exactly like many of the tacquerias I've eaten at in MX..x seafood, where coastal MX beat our pants off..:)especially camarones.

                                                                                            I haven't found the "higher end" of MX cuisine in Boston. Only in Mx City, a few MX resorts,and Chicago.

                                                                                            1. re: 9lives
                                                                                              hyde RE: 9lives Nov 22, 2013 07:44 PM

                                                                                              I think the mole at Angela's is quite good, but , hell, I grew up in Sherborn. What do I know from great mexican food?

                                                                                              I was responding to ptrefler's (and everyone elses) complaint that the mexican food in Boston dosent stand up to San Francisco, and my answer is always "of course it dosent."

                                                                                              My point was that expecting food to be as good as a place 3000 miles away, in a totally different climate, in a place without a large expat community of people from that country is never going to happen.

                                                                                              I am constantly trying to get people to try some hot goat roti, or doubles or pilau, saltfish, and maybe crab and dumpling. Rather than another warn out, dull, burrito smothered in cheddar cheese at " Jose's Cantina!!! "

                                                                                              1. re: hyde
                                                                                                9lives RE: hyde Nov 23, 2013 06:12 AM

                                                                                                I don't disagree with you.

                                                                                                I rarely eat at Mexican restaurants in Boston. I spend a few months a year in the Southern Baja and get my fill then. I'm more likely to prepare my own MX while in Boston.

                                                                                                That said, I still occassionally "need" a Mexican fix while here; knowing that it will probably not be as good as I get in MX. Same with Thai, Vietnamese, etc. I know there are betterversions in the home countries but that's of little use at the time.

                                                                                                MX and Central Am food is eons better than it was 10+ years ago. We have large populations of Central Am in East Boston and Chelsea that are putting out similar food to what they can make in their native lands. Not a large MX population, most of our immigrants are from further South.

                                                                                                Pedro's on Bromfield is also a decent option. A family member opened the place in Boston a few years ago. The family owns a handful of tacquerias in So Cal.


                                                                                                I likely wouldn't recommend Mexican food to a visitor (depending on where they are from) but if someone lives here and are seeking it out, there are options.

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