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Looking for a lifetime set of cookware

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Hi everyone! This is my first post here so bear with me if I am naive.

My parents have a set of Revere Ware copper clad pots/pans that they bought 35 years ago. To this day I can go over to their house and see my Mom whipping up something fantastic in the same pots that fed me when I was 5. There isn't really anything "fancy" about them, they just are quality pots that have lasted and will last for a long long time.

This year for Christmas I would love to get my wife of 3 years something similar. A set of pots and pans that will last a long long time. To my eye, too many of the sets I am seeing are overpriced "art". Of course they are nice pots that will last a long time but my salary can't pay for a $500 set.

I also don't need a 57-piece set. I would like to get something like 3 pots (sm, med, lg), and a skillet or two.

Does anyone have any suggestions for a high quality budget set of pans?

PS. My wife LOVES the copper clad stuff

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  1. Hi Syvmn! Many, many, years ago, when I was a student sharing an apartment, one of my roommates had a Revere Ware saute pan with the copper on the bottom. It worked nicely for me. So, I can understand why you would want something like what your mother uses as a gift for your wife.

    However, you should know that Revere Ware is NOT copper clad. The copper on the bottom is very, very thin. (I think it is plated, as opposed to a separate piece of copper that was joined to the body of the pan.) The cookware is pretty but the copper is too thin to affect the cooking characteristics by very much. So it probably makes sense to think of Revere Ware as being decent quality regular stainless steel cookware with some copper for looks and branding.

    If you have a Costco membership or know someone who does, I suggest you take a look at the current Costco stainless cookware set. What they sell varies over time, but it is always excellent quality and a very good value (and attractive, even though it doesn't have any copper on the bottom). Here is what they have on their website today, for $169:


    Looking over the set, I bet every piece would get good use in most people's kitchens.

    Whatever you do buy, best wishes for many happy years and meals together.

    13 Replies
    1. re: PinchOfSalt

      I've bought two sets of Circulon induction-capable cookware at Costco for about $200 and think they're super. And, yes, all the pieces get used.

      1. re: c oliver

        Hey c!

        How long have you had the Circulon and what do you think of it, aside from super? Do the grooves ever bug you? There are so many lines, which do you have? I presume you keep heat around medium, yes? Maybe med-high once in a while, but not for long or very often? Any buzzing? How does it perform compared to your other pans?

        Since I'm looking to avoid heavy stuff, I've been lately thinking that maybe I should think outside the clad SS box, that aluminum might be the ticket, but you know that's hard to find, except for Scanpan and Swiss Diamond. I just tonight found Mauviel M'stone and am trying to get more info.

        But I'm so not sure about spending the bucks if it won't last. I'm very gentle with my nonstick frypans and they do last a long time, but I only pay about $75 for 3 of them. My current pans are 3 years old, and going strong. So I think I could do well with nonstick saucepans, but that would be a whole new world for me. I've never used them and it's a little scary to think of leaving my clad stainless behind.

        What's your best advice? A Try Me piece perhaps, but beyond that? Anything to look for or avoid?

        This is the current Costco offering: http://www.costco.com/Circulon-Premie...

        1. re: DuffyH

          You can trash the good stuff and it'll hold up and still look good. No point in babying cookware IMO

          1. re: Sgee

            Well, I've sure not babied my clad stuff, preferring the DW for my pots and even taking SOS pads and oven cleaner to the stuff when called-for.

            But to preserve a good nonstick coating, I'm willing to, and do, treat it more gently. With my Tramontina Professional aluminum, I don't worry about the outside looks, and they're pretty ugly, with lots of caramelized gunk. But the cooking surface is pretty much pristine, and still quite nonstick.

            Still, when all it takes is a swipe with a soapy sponge to get it looking like new, I don't really call that babying it. Where it's treated most gently is on the stovetop. I routinely subject my other pans to high heat, but not my nonstick.

            1. re: DuffyH

              My apologies missed the nonstick specific reference.

              I've resorted to buying cheapo nonstick pans from restaurant kitchen supply stores assuming they have to be replaced every few years.

              They nonstick surface never seem to last irregardless of brand or price

              1. re: Sgee

                <They nonstick surface never seem to last irregardless of brand or price>

                Mine are still great after 3 years. I expect that, if I weren't switching to induction, I'd be able to use them for at least 3 more, possibly much longer. That's why I think I *might* be able to get long life from a good set.

                I've trashed my share, boy howdy have I, but since I began treating them as recommended, I'm amazed at how well they're holding up. Who knew? :)

      2. re: PinchOfSalt

        I've got the Revere Ware set that my Mom got as a wedding gift over 60 years ago and it's still going strong. These are the pots and pans that I learned how to cook on, so the nostalgia factor is really high. I think of her, and our kitchen time together, often.

        I also have a Circulon set that I really like. It's oven safe, easy to clean, and nonstick. Everything gets used, but the small pan is really wonderful for eggs so gets lots of use.

        I also have some Le Creuset cast iron. Unless you find a great sale, discontinued colors, or perhaps an outlet, it can be very pricey. Cast iron is wonderful to cook with, though. My dutch ovens (I have 2 sizes) and 10 inch pan get lots of use. The dutch ovens are especially great for long, low and slow braises - wonderful for winter cookery. The only down side is their weight, but you adjust to that. The Dutch ovens, when filled with food and liquid, can get pretty heavy. I wouldn't recommend them for anyone with arthritis, but for anyone else I'd suggest getting one and seeing how you like it. Many people collect them one piece at a time in different colors.

        1. re: KailuaGirl

          If weight is the issue Emile Henry makes Flame ceramic that cooks like enamel clad steel with just a portion of the weight and the gentle heat retaining properties of clay. You can seer on the stovetop with them, put them on the BBQ grill, oven braise, etc. They do everything and do it well.

          They don't seem to have taken over the culinary world but I LOVE them. Breakage is an issue. I've replaced a few pieces but I never hesitate to.

            1. re: rasputina

              Just to be clear, their ordinary red clay pieces with the white glazed interior are fine but can't take strong heat. I'm ambivalent about them.

              But the grey ceramic Flame that's glazed in various colors with the same interiors and exteriors is what I'm enthusiastic about.

              I also have a piece I bought 40 years ago that I wish I had bought in every size. It's very, very thick red clay. It was a greyish glaze inside and out. That thing is a workhorse! But then they started thinning out their walls and producing things that starts splitting above 450˚ or when the broiler even gets turned on. ::sigh::

              Look for Flame or the vintage stuff. ; >

              1. re: rainey

                I only have the Flame myself. ok that's not true, I do have a pie pan and that obviously isn't flameware.

        2. re: PinchOfSalt

          She may not want disk bottom though. I had Costco's set of Stainless, it ended up getting donated.

          1. re: PinchOfSalt

            I purchased that set for my son a couple of years ago. A lot of quality for the price, and all are useful pieces.

          2. Unfortunately the options are so many, it's a bit overwhelming. Revere Ware isn't what it used to be, and I doubt your wife would be very pleased with the new, made in China, very thin and almost copper free Revere Ware of today.

            Honestly, $500 a set won't buy you a work of "art", but it will buy you a reasonably good set of All Clad MC2 10 pcs. (2 fry pans, saute pan w/lid, 2 sauce pots w/lids, and 1 stock pot w/lid). Or for $350 you can get a 5 piece All Clad d5 set with a fry pan, saute pan and sauce pot w/lids. Note, most sets include the lid as a seperate piece, so a pot with a lid is 2 pieces of the set. Or you can spend that same $350 and buy one sauté pan from Demeyer, or Falk, or Mauviel, or All Clad Copper Core.

            There are a ton of other sets available that are good cookware. So much depends on personal preferences, cooking style, what she cooks most frequently, and the specific things she likes to cook. Just about any pot will work to boil water for pasta and it will likely last for ever at that task, but other cooking techniques require more from the cooking vessel, so quality and construction are more of an issue.

            1. My Mom had Revere Ware from probably the late 40's, so I understand the nostalgia, and it really is pretty much indestructible. However, lots of stuff has scorched in it because stainless is not very good for even heat distribution. But if I wanted it, I would look on Amazon or Ebay for used Revere Ware, make sure it is the old stuff. (para) If looking for new stuff, rather than a set I would get a cheap pot 6-8 qt, (SS w/aluminum disc in the bottom is fine), a cast-iron skillet 10" or 12", and spend a bit more for a fully clad sauce pan, 3 or 4 qt. Plus a cheap nonstick fry pan if you cook eggs. Happy hunting!

              1. I have some pans I love to use - some that were very reasonable (Tramontina) and some I paid a lot for (Magnalite), but I'm moving to a new home where I can't get gas, so I'm transitioning to induction cooking. I bought an induction burner to try it, and I like it much better than gas, which I thought was the best until I tried induction. Most of my favorite cookware won't work on induction, as the pans need to be magnetic, so...lifetime cookware might not be lifetime after all. My new favorite pan is Italian - TVS Galattica - which is wonderful. Good luck in your quest.

                1 Reply
                1. re: CapeCodLorrie

                  For my new induction cooktop I have liked these:

                  http://www.dvorsons.com/sitram/Profis... Sitram Profiserie

                  I bought a chef's pan and a rondeau from Amazon and both pans are responsive. They clean up well too. If I had any extra dollars floating around, I'd buy a couple more pans. Maybe next year.

                  These are professional type pans with thick aluminum disk bottoms.

                  I would recommend this line to anyone who is buying for induction.

                2. Decide on your budget, and give your wife the money to pick out her own pans, especially if she is the chief cook in the family.

                  Otherwise, I'd recommend one of the Cuisinart sets. You can find them at several price points. Have a look at the complete lines at the Cuisinart site, and then price them out on Amazon. http://www.cuisinart.com/products/coo...

                  Stay away from non-stick for longer life. Pay attention to handles, which can be uncomfortable. (A good reason to let your wife choose what she wants.)

                  For about $200-$250 you should be able to get several pots.

                  I recommend stainless for dishwasher capability. Be sure to get induction capable pots because at some time in your life you might have an induction range. Induction gains in popularity all the time.

                  Another brand that produces value cookware in stainless is Tramontina.

                  I don't think you will be able to buy a very extensive set of stainless for under $500. You might have to settle for three good pieces.

                  Good luck!

                  (Really, you should let your wife pick out the pans she feels she would use the most.)

                  2 Replies
                  1. re: sueatmo

                    I'd repeat not wasting money on non-stick. I've thrown out tons of non-stick over the years.

                    Better to pay attention to the proper heat of the pan. I do eggs in my stainless sauté pans with just a fork and a bit of butter and only have to run some hot water and a towel over them when I'm done. It's all about the temperature when the food hits the bottom not the surface.

                    1. re: rainey

                      I buy the cheapest non-stick skillets I can find...consider them almost disposable, but they still last a few years...and I use them only for eggs. I think the last one I bought cost $10 at B,B & B...and if I were really a bad dude, I could return it to B,B & B when it wore out! For eggs and omelettes, IMHO nothing beats non-stick. I use non-stick for nothing else!

                  2. First of all, if possible, try to avoid buying a set. This is probably the most helpful advise compare to the rest. Different cookware materials and different cookware designs have different strengths and weaknesses, so it is best to buy what you will need based on the task you need.

                    However, assuming you want a set of cookware, I will say that most cookware beside Teflon nonstick cookware can last for a very long time with proper care. Some cookware will be easier to care for than others, and a lot of these have to do with the person. For example, I find it much easier to take care of bare cast iron cookware than enameled cast iron cookware. Yet, plenty people find the opposite to be true.

                    I do agree with PinchOfSalt. The copper on Revere Ware is just for show. It is very thin. It is so thin, that I won't call it copper cladding.

                    If you like copper cladded cookware, then there are a few choices. Mauviel M'Heritage is one example. You will be looking at >$1000 for a small set of cookware (one pan and two pots):


                    All Clad copper core is another choice. In the case of All Clad, much of the copper is hidden, so it is a bit easier to take care of, but it also means you have less to show for.


                    <Of course they are nice pots that will last a long time but my salary can't pay for a $500 set.>

                    In all honesty, if you are looking for a set of cookware under $500, then copper is not really in that range.
                    If you want a budget cookware set, then the Tramontina stainless steel cladded (with aluminum) is probably one of the best budget cookware out there. $140 for a small set.


                    If you have a bit more money, then try to look at Calphalon Triply set and Cuisinart MultiClad set.
                    Good luck.

                    5 Replies
                    1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                      Agree completely about avoiding a set. Sure get her a few copper clad skillets, if she likes the look. But to me, no set of cookware is complete without a Dutch oven for soups, stews, etc. (I love Le Creuset), everyone should have a non-stick skillet for eggs (a cheap one is fine), and for cooking pasta or stock a simple very large pot is all you need. Many folks would add a cast iron skillet to the mix, but I put personally put less importance on it.

                      Let your wife make the final choices!

                      1. re: josephnl

                        <Sure get her a few copper clad skillets, if she likes the look. >

                        Yeah, that is probably a good start. Start with just one good copper pan, and see if this is worth the investment for additional pieces.


                        1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                          I love my Mauviel roaster but it is super expensive. Mine was a gift (hand me down) otherwise no way I could afford it.

                      2. re: Chemicalkinetics

                        I agree about different materials for different purposes. I originally bought a set, and as I replace all my original cookware, I'm buying individual pieces that I expect will last the rest of my life (with the exception of one non-stick skillet).

                        My two favorites are Le Creuset enameled cast iron, and Lagostina stainless (looks like Costco carries a line they make). I quite like Le Creuset saucepans. They are the only duplicate item I own--I have two identical ones. These are well within your budget and would be a nice piece to try.

                        1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                          I would agree on this. I'd buy her a single nice pot or pan, like a Le Creuset Dutch oven (mine get a TON of use) or a really good copper clad skillet. Next year give her another piece. Pay attention to what cookware she uses that could be upgraded.

                        2. If you know she loves cooper clad, then I'd get her one or two ( whatever you can afford) in the most usable sizes. Say a 10 inch frying pan and a 2 qt saucepan. Then add a new one each Christmas or birthday and build a set.

                          I know I'd rather build a set of what I truly want over time than settle for something else just so I can have it all now.

                          My husband basically tells me to choose and purchase my own gift so he knows I get exactly what I want. But he knows I'm picky.

                          1. If you don't buy a set you can have your Christmas gifts planned for a few years to come and get quality pans too! Buy two of your basic most used sizes. Macy's has good buys on the stainless (dishwasher safe) All Clad right now.
                            A 2.5 qt. Saucier pan for $129 and an 11" French skillet with domed lid for $99. They also have a 4 qt. sauté with domed lid for $149 as an alternative to the French skillet. The saucier and sauté pan or saucier and French skillet could get you started well.

                            1. I would take a look at this set made by Regalware. It is quality cookware, made in the USA, and a real value. It is under the shadow of All-Clad, but not deservedly so. All-Clad is very much over rated, while this great little line is almost like an insiders secret. You might want to consider this set:


                              1. Surprised no one has mentioned Farberware. I realize they are not trendy but I still use my parents' pots every day. They must be at least 60 years old. My frying pan is NOT nonstick. Farberware is not fancy but it is sturdy. I don't think you can put them into the oven though. Edited to add: Oops, it says ovensafe to 350.


                                Or why not give her a gift certificate for Kohls or BB&B and let her pick her own.

                                1 Reply
                                1. re: Jerseygirl111

                                  There's Farberware and then there's Farberware.

                                  My first investment pans back in the late 70s or early 80s were Farber Advantage. It was one of the very early if not the first venture in laminated metals technology for the kitchen. It was probably on the market and gone within 2 years because, at that time, it was hideously expensive and they couldn't create a market for it.

                                  I've still got them. They still look great. There still isn't anything better. Newer, yes. More dishwasher friendly, yes (mine have rosewood handles). But I haven't found anything better.

                                  My kids will still be able to put another 30 or 40 years of use on them. …provided they're willing to hand wash them as I did. ;>

                                  OTOH, I don't think Farber has ever been ballsy enough to go for that top market again. Shame!

                                2. Since she likes copper, you might consider Anolon Nouvelle Copper/Stainless. Reports are these are sturdy pans and are reasonable priced for pans with copper in them — about $300 for a set of ten pieces currently.

                                  4 Replies
                                  1. re: GH1618

                                    Good point for disc bottom copper cookware.

                                    Anolon is certainly one. Emerilware is also another one.

                                    1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                      Emerilware was made by All Clad, is it still? If so, they guarantee for life.

                                      1. re: Jerseygirl111

                                        Yes it is, and Amazon is currently offering a 12-piece set of the Pro Clad for $201.87, almost $100 less than anyone else. There are some questionable items; do we really need an All-lad splatter screen? But it does have 1.5 and 2.5 quart saucepans, a nice 10" frypan, and a 3 quart covered sauté, plus some other stuff.

                                        I think it's an exceptional bargain. I've handled this at BB&B (where it's on sale for $299) and would say it's very nice stuff, nice and heavy, good balance and solid construction.


                                    2. re: GH1618

                                      Hi, GH1618:

                                      Another possibility for copper clad is Chantal Copper Fusion. It'd be a lot easier for me to recommend if they'd disclose how thick the copper layer is, but our friend Candy has CCF and really likes it.


                                    3. Your wife is a lucky girl and I hope one day your kids can cook with the pots she fed them from.

                                      Your instinct to start with a modest few but good pans is a good one. Put the money into a good pot or two at a time and you won't be wasting money replacing things you should have skipped in the first place.

                                      I'd disagree, tho, that the cookware we're all familiar with is overpriced art. It's expensive because it's made from good materials to exacting standards. The best stuff you can get has heavy bottoms probably 5-7X as thick as that Revereware. But it will do a better job and, believe it or not, hold up much better.

                                      I won't try to sell you on a brand because there are probably lots of good alternatives I'm not aware of. I will just say that I have *never* regretted what I spent on a good pan. (And I'll confess to having felt VERY indulgent sometimes) I've still got Every. Single. One. of Them. still in good use despite being put through their paces.

                                      There are discounters who sell in bulk or sell seconds. There are people who sell on eBay. God only knows how they get the stuff that they can sell at those prices (and there's always a risk) but I got an 11-piece set of All-Clad for my daughter 2 Christmases ago for under $500. You could start with smaller sizes and work your way up. But please consider heavy bottoms at least and, if you can, heavy sides as well.

                                      1. Thanks for all of the suggestions. It is greatly appreciated. The funny thing is that I do most of the cooking. I think my wife's interest in new pots is so that when we buy our first house (about 6 months from now) she wants to have gleaming pots hanging over an island in the kitchen. We both want a set that will last a lifetime, but then again I am the cook in the relationship.

                                        I've proded through a lot of the examples you have given and like a lot of them. My thought is to get a nice skillet and a 2-quart pan to start with. Then we can go from there.

                                        I already have 2 cast-iron skillets and a cast-iron dutch oven.

                                        What would be your choices for the skillet+2qt pot under $200 for both?

                                        3 Replies
                                        1. re: syvmn

                                          "What would be yqt.our choices for the skillet+2qt pot under $200 for both?"

                                          You're in luck, there are a lot of "introductory" pieces that fit your needs. 9.5 fry pans and 2 qt. sauce for $99 each.

                                          Zwilling J.W. Henckles Sensation (Demeyere Industry 5) 9.5" fry pan is $99 from Chefs. All Clad has a 3 qt saute and a 2 qt. saucepan for $99 each. Both of these are excellent cookware manufacturers and will last a lifetime. This is just a couple of the many good deals on individual "introductory" pieces.

                                          1. re: mikie

                                            My collection is a combo of small sets and intro pieces and deep sales - demeyere, mauviel, all clad le creuset, staub. Just keep an eye out for close outs at your local sur la table and William Sonoma. My needs have also evolved over time..

                                            Don't think I would have been happy buying a pre-packaged set of too small pots and pans many years ago.

                                            Dehillerin is a good 'affordable' place to get some copper bling

                                          2. re: syvmn

                                            Macy's is having a 25% off sale today in All Clad, you could meet your under $200 goal for both today of those today easily with the discount code.

                                          3. For the gift that is more budget friendly and will give you gift ideas for years of Christmases and birthdays to come, I would suggest a succession of individual pieces. This year, a great stainless sauté pan. Next year, an enameled dutch oven. A super amazing knife, a butcher block cutting board. (I might have received many of these over the past several gifting events). Build her her own set, which will be a much better return on investment, and she will always keep coming up with ideas for you. (Vitamix. . . oh wait that's me:))

                                            1. I think it is really hard to know what pots you will like the most or least. I have all clad, calphalon, Swiss diamond, Le creuset but my favourite most used pot is a cheap nonstick pot. My mil gave it to me and I thought it was the silliest pot ever, I saw absolutely no value in it. I have searched high and low for a better quality replacement and have found one for over 300$ so no thank you. I love this pot because:
                                              It has 2 pouring sprouts
                                              It is nonstick-great for making custard
                                              Great size
                                              This pot will not last a lifetime but you will love it and use it to death.
                                              The biggest problem with expensive cookware is the upkeep. Every month or so I scrub and polish my all clad frying pans. I cook way too much to bother with copper.

                                              2 Replies
                                              1. re: DowntownJosie

                                                I just polished all my AC, I find it very satisfying. (Yes, I am weird.)

                                                Most of my AC was purchased from this site -


                                                The seconds I purchased had very minor cosmetic imperfections. The site also sells firsts as well. Once or twice a year, they run good sales.

                                                1. re: cleobeach

                                                  Most of the time I just give mine a basic wash. Who cares if things look like they're used? Actually cooking should be a badge of honor.

                                                  Still, it's a real boost to get to work with beautiful things so I also pick a day and pull out the things that are starting to show the grime and polish them up. It helps to attack it before it goes too far. A denture cleaner type tooth brush does a great job around the rivets and the spots where the handles are attached.

                                              2. We all have our favorites so you will get a lot of opinions. My first opinion......don't buy them for Christmas. That will be as appealing as receiving a vaccum cleaner. 2-if you have a Home Goods or TJ Maxx near home (don't drive 200 miles) go shopping together and when there propose looking at what is on the cookware shelf, you can get some very good deals on quality cookware. I had a customer in the shop and after showing him what we carried he decided it was too rich for his blood. I sent him off to TJM. He came back and thanked me and as he can afford my stuff he'll be back. 3. Make sure whatever you buy is induction compatible. It is not in every home but pretty much will be in a few years. 4. All cookware doesn't have to match. You ( or your wife) should select pieces that will be used. Different pans have different uses. Be sure to get a cast iron skillet or two. 8" and 10" are great sizes to own.

                                                I have been the housewares and table top business for about 40 years, and married 38 years. Mundane things like cookware or appliances either one of us will buy as a Christmas gift for the house.

                                                6 Replies
                                                1. re: Candy

                                                  People are wired differently. I suspect there are people who would throw pots if the wrong person gave them. Me? If it was the good stuff I'd be all over them like white on rice. Maybe it's about the place cooking has in someone's life.

                                                  I wouldn't pout if I got jewelry but the truth is that's what I'd prefer to pick out myself.

                                                  1. re: rainey

                                                    A member of my family has ... control issues, and so we each buy our own present from the other person. Mine have included Le Creuset ... and I've always been 100% happy with the gifts I've bought for myself ;)

                                                    1. re: foiegras

                                                      Too funny! I just this afternoon gave my husband the bracelet he'll give me for Christmas.

                                                      I'd be 100% happy if it were LC too but he likes jewelry. I don't mind. ; >

                                                      1. re: rainey

                                                        My wife and I were shopping last weekend and she handed me the necklace she wanted for Christmas. I assume she will be 100% happy with that.

                                                          1. re: mikie

                                                            My people!

                                                            I am the same way. It is a personality flaw. I still cringe remembering the "watch" Christmas when I was speechless, and not in a good way, over a watch that wasn't "the watch" I asked for. It wasn't the value, I wanted a less expensive one, but the fact that dear husband didn't hear/process the one I really wanted. All way good in the end.

                                                  2. The items i use most I spend the money on. My 12 in fry pan is an all clad 4112 and I love it. However the pot I boil water in for eggs and noodles was probably $10. Keep in mind your thinking lifetime. What is a couple extra hundred bucks spread out over a lifetime. When you buy the best you only cry once :)

                                                    1. Does anyone have any experience cooking with Gastrolux cookware from Denmark? I like the look of them and they seem very durable so am thinking of investing in one but I don't know anyone who has used them before.

                                                      1. I had Revere ware for years, as did my mother before me, and my brother as well. I started picking up introductory priced pieces of All Clad years ago and really liked it. Then a few years ago I found an All-Clad copper core set on the clearance rack at Dillards for a great price. I love the copper core and continue to pick up odd pieces when I can find them on sale. It is amazing what a difference good cookware makes. BTW, my son works in a cookware store and he LOVES and highly recommends the DeMeyere pans. You can frequently find certain pieces on sale. Lastly, it doesn't all need to match!