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A Rant! About the evolution of books. Cookbooks especially!

Okay, we've had discussions before about our cookbooks, how many we have, whether we cook from them or just read them... All kinds of interesting stuff like that, BUT.....! Is anyone else ticked off at the way "books" are going in the world today? I'm talking about eBooks. And eMovies. And electronic whatevers.

I have a hundred or so cookbooks in my hard copy collection. A couple of genuine first editions, like Mrs. Beeton's, replete with hand colored plates and tissue overlays bound right into the pages in that fine leather cover. You just can't get that kind of "touch and love" and yes, even a sense of companionship from an eBook. But there's more to it than that. If you buy an eBook from Amazon, or Barnes & Noble, you can't loan it to a friend. Well, you can if you want to loan them your eReader too.

In another thread someone mentioned the stories her hard bound cook books tell about her family's joy for certain recipes. She can tell which ones by the cooking splashes on the pages from using the actual cookbook in the kitchen. And that's another thing you cannot get from an eBook. Yes! You can take your Kindle or your Nook or your whatever eReader into the kitchen, and it will prop quite nicely into a recipe book holder, but... if you lift the beater from the merangue too soon and plop a big smear on it, you just wipe off the screen and all record of how much your family loves your Pavlova is gone! No one will ever know.

And then there is the question of whether you REALLY own an eBook? How can you own it if you can't loan it to someone? Yeah... I have a Kindle "paper white." And I have a tablet PC that does all of that kind of thing too. I have, oh, I don't know, maybe 20 or so electronic cook books on my Kindle. But I don't really feel as if any of them are mine. "Owning" any sort of eBook makes me feel as if I'm constantly reading over someone else's shoulder. I can't put the eBook on my bookshelf. I can't loan it to anyone. I can't smudge the pages with chocolate frosting or Burgundy wine... THAT means it is not MY cookbook! I'm just reading over someone's shoulder! So then, how come I paid so much for the damned thing?

The glory of real hard bound books is that you can love them, touch them, and put them on your bookshelves. I have at least several hundreds of books, not all of which are cookbooks, but a real bona fide home library. I learned a long time ago not to loan out any books. If someone I enjoy shows a genuine interest in one of my books, they're welcome to read it... in MY house! Or I might well buy a copy for the friend as a gift, but I will never loan them my copy to read at their home!

I have close to as many books on my Kindle as I have in my home... BUT... The big difference is that people can come into my home, glance over my books, including my cook books, and they will know more about me than they did before that. What kind of clues will someone get about me by looking at my Kindle? And wouldn't all of my three rooms of bookshelves look ridiculous bare naked with a Kindle sitting on one shelf?


Or think of it this way: Your books -- all of your books -- are a record of who you are... and.... AND...


Rant over. Thanks for reading! CBS cares! '-)

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  1. I have been reading and making ebooks for ten years. I don't know why you're so upset about their existence. As for me, I would like to replace most of my several thousand deadtree books with ebooks, leaving me with one bookcase full of books that are beautiful or better in paper. (I also have close to 3000 ebooks stored in my Dropbox.) I can carry dozens of ebooks on my iPod, to read whenever and wherever; I can read in bed on a backlit screen; I can read a book with one hand, lying down.

    I think i'd keep my cookbooks ... but eventually we'll probably have nice e-versions. They will probably include videos. When I was editing cookbooks, I frequently used YouTube to research techniques and recipes that I hadn't personally used. Descriptions of how to prepare squid for cooking pale in comparison to a video showing the whole process.

    Lighten up :)

    3 Replies
    1. re: Felila

      Et tu... Have you no humor? What will you do in a power failure? Or in a cyber war when electronics are wiped out? Lescaaux is still with us... Maybe rotting from human breath, but still with us. What sort of eBooks will be around for archaeologists to uncover in a million years? Yes, my dear editor, lighten up~ '-)

      1. re: Caroline1

        How about when the kindle becomes self aware? o.0

    2. I do enjoy actual books but there is a place for e books. Far easier to read a book on my phone at the airport than to lug several around. Not everyone can dedicate a cabinet to cookbooks. Also of the few cookbooks I have, I have maybe a dozen recipes in each that I use, the other pages are just taking space.

      I find most of my recipes on online sites like blogs now. The pictures are excellent, as are people's comments. Can't get that from a book.

      When I want to share a recipe with a friend, I either copy and paste the link, show them in person, or email them a screen shot.

      I don't refer to cookbooks when I'm in the kitchen because I often don't have the counter space, plus I hate getting stains on books. So I study the recipe, then take an envelope from some bills or junk mail (meaning junk mail or junk mail), reverse the envelope if need be, then write the ingredients and instructions in my shorthand. This way i can modify as I like, often because I cut recipes in half. After, I either toss the sheet in the recycling or stick it on the fridge.

      Also, I like trees :)

      2 Replies
      1. re: youareabunny

        I like trees too! My pecan trees bent to the ground this year! Despite having fun with my rant, I do appreciate the lightness of a heavyweight book on a tablet pc for reading in bed. It's a lot less damaging to have a Kindle pop you in the nose if you drift off rather than the OED! '-)

        1. re: Caroline1

          I'm not so sure about that. I was reading in bed with my tablet and dropped it on my head (don't ask- I'm one of those people with "special" coordination skills). I had a goose egg for a week. Then when asked why, I have to admit to dropping the dang thing ON MY HEAD. oh embarrassing...

      2. Allow me to offer the perspective of a retired Soldier on ebooks.

        Back when I joined the Army in the mid-80's, during the old Cold War days, I was lucky to be able to cram a couple of paperbacks into my rucksack whenever we had to rotate through postings along the old East German and Czech borders.

        For sixty to ninety days during those border patrols, I was usually stuck reading the same two books, unless I could find someone to trade with (excluding US Army Field Manuals and Training Manuals, ugh).

        This was the standard routine for many many years, until my lovely wife bought me a Sony Reader stuffed with one gb of books. I can say without a doubt, that having that many books on hand helped make the Sandbox a far more bearable place.

        Also a reader, flash drive, and hand scanner has made it possible for me to scan virtual copies of my own library of books (a few hundred), download them onto several flash drives, and made it possible to carry my whole library in my pocket when my son and I went hunting a few months ago.

        While ebooks don't replace my real books, they do supplement them nicely; and yes, I do own my ebooks.

        Meanwhile back in the mid-80's, there's a much younger version of myself cursing his crap luck as he has to decide which two books he could pack into his already overfull rucksack.

        I love my ebooks almost as much as I love my real books.

        1 Reply
        1. re: deet13

          Love your story. In the late '50s, I was Service Club Director at Incirlik Air Force Base, in Adana, Turkey (talk about the Cold War!), and one of our problems was getting enough books in the base library, imported from USAF libraries closing down in other parts of the world. EVERYTHING was censored at that time by a now-overthrown Turkish government, so when that U2 spy plane was shot down, USAF pilots had to smuggle in contraband copies of NYTimes, Newsweek, Time, etc. from other European countries that they flew missions to so us peons could find out what was going on.

          At age 80, I am truly becoming a curmudgeon. I do have to wonder about what the future will be for my grandson's grandson. Maybe 80 years is too long an overview, but it just irks the hell out of me that whenever I have a doctor appointment, there are no more Newsweeks to read in the waiting room! On the other hand, I do have subscriptions to about a hundred magazines for about fifteen bucks a month through "New Issue" on my Lenovo Windows tablet. I guess if I want to read Newsweek in a doctor's office, I'll have to take my tablet PC along with me....

          Which begs the question: As more and more print media goes electronic, will doctor waiting rooms of the future have racks of loaner eBook readers? I hope so! I'm SICK of Car and Driver! '-)

        2. I refuse to read ebooks or buy a Kindle/Nook. There is nothing like holding a book in your hand and turning the pages. Nothing.

          5 Replies
          1. re: Jerseygirl111

            I don't necessarily refuse but I don't have one. I have been offered but for some reason I always decline. I have tried reading some things like this on other people's tablets and I physically can't do it and would probably never finish the book.

            1. re: melpy

              It's not much different from reading cooking blogs or long forum threads?

              Anyway I have a phone and a tablet which can both accept ebooks. Not sure id get a kindle or anything that's specifically for ebooks

              1. re: youareabunny

                I only have the phone. I do read things on there but I have never read any of the novels I downloaded.

            2. re: Jerseygirl111

              Me too. I regularly get books from the public library.

              1. re: Jerseygirl111

                If I had a nickel for every time I heard that from a friend who know owns a Kindle....

                I love books, always have, own over a thousand (mostly boxed and in storage). But the convenience of going on a 2 week vacation with an ereader or tablet loaded with dozens of books is simply unbeatable.

              2. I certainly know what you mean and I have a large book collection, cookbooks and others. But I see plenty of value in ebooks. And, you know, they're the future.

                I don't own a Kindle or an ereader however I have an iPhone, an iPad, and a laptop, all of which are capable of handling ebooks. My library system is now loaning ebooks - I love them. No need to worry about overdue charges as they automatically expire.

                Mostly, I use recipes from the internet even if the original source is a hard copy book I own. It's easier! And I *LOVE* cooking videos. So so so much easier to watch and learn than to read and learn, for me.

                1 Reply
                1. re: tcamp

                  "But I see plenty of value in ebooks. And, you know, they're the future. "

                  I see value in them too. What I don't understand (well, I do, but let it be) is why every new useful technological breakthrough is never allowed to simply be a useful addition to our already established useful technologies - but somehow has to become THE FUTURE that wipes out all previous useful technologies. Until it too is replaced.

                  It makes it so hard for me to enjoy the very real advantages that ebooks have if publishers keep screaming at me that THE PRINTED BOOK IS DEAD. Jesus!!! Why? Why can't we enjoy both ebooks AND printed books?

                2. A certain generation has been around long enough to appreciate how access to material of all kinds has changed; this generation looks at ownership in an entirely different way. I'm of a generation that collected things. All sorts of things. Young people today focus on owning the 3 majors: car, home, freedom to come & go as they please. Entertainment is in the moment and often a group activity not one of enjoying solitude. Sure there are exceptions.

                  All I have to do is look to my own kids and see the differences between them. My oldest was a buyer of music, books, odds and ends and my youngest would feel dragged down by "so much stuff" and "where to keep it all" he'd say that ownership is happily a music cloud and e-book d/l and Internet access and APP for just about everything is free. Even his dentist has an app!

                  So, I now enjoy both. My collections mean something to me but I've scaled down over the last few years and I really enjoy easier access without 'hard copy' a great deal too.

                  Somewhere btwn my old ways and new experiences I'm happiest.


                  10 Replies
                  1. re: HillJ

                    My husband as a room, yes a ROOM full of CDs and he just keeps buying more, although at a steadily slower pace.

                    I prefer all my tunes electronic, as long as they all fit on my portable device.

                    1. re: melpy

                      I hear ya, melpy. In our first place my hubby had a garage to hang out in (cliche I know) with his guitars, drums, music and sound equipment. When we met he was a struggling NY music guy going to school. Today, he's a pilot running a charter company taking bands back and forth to gigs. The music collection has been replaced by clouds :) That's how he rolls now and it makes me roar. I'm a bit of a schlepper I carry a ton of stuff with me wherever I go (camera equipment, books, music, notes) in messenger bags and duffles. I listen to Internet radio and sites like Spotify all the time. But I'm not ready to part with 'vintage' album titles just yet.

                    2. re: HillJ

                      HillJ, I love your remarks about the differences between your kids! My kids (11 months apart) are now firmly stomping on their mid-forties, they're both entrepreneurs, and very much eBook kinds of people. My daughter and son-in-law have been successful enough that they can afford some hellacious toys, and recently built the second home they have owned in El Paso. This time, "built" as in the whole nine yards: hire an architect, shop for the land, do it all from first bulldozer to last light bulb in the chandeliers! So when it came time to decorate this indoor acreage, my daughter wanted a "homey feel" to it, so how did she accomplish that? She bought books BY THE FREAKING POUND to fill the library shelves! I teased her and nagged her to send me pictures. Yup! They look very much like Mom's books! So I asked her if she's read any of them..... Not unless she has an eBook copy of them!!!

                      So now, at age 80, she has provided me with one more thing to worry about.... What is going to happen to all of my beloved books when I die? God, I hope no one throws a Third Reich book burning party for Halloween!!!! :-(

                      1. re: Caroline1

                        Oh man can I relate to your throwback comments as well, C1. Life is pretty freakin ironic!!

                        1. re: Caroline1

                          My kids are book kids and always have been. The younger, however, is an e-book kid, versus her brother who likes the physical artifact. I have no idea what will happen with our library one day (we have approx 4k books libraried in our house, with another 1k or so in storage - Hub is in publishing; the rest of us are academic...it happens). My cooking library, however, hasn't changed much recently (hovering around 300, excepting those that deal with food culture); I may have made good selections along the way, perhaps, and now need just some Internet zhuzshing of recipes? Who knows.

                          I do know this: I buy fewer cookbooks in a physical form than I ever have before. I don't mind, say, the iPad format and looooove Paprika as an app, but my old books still serve me well with fill-in from internet sources.

                        2. re: HillJ

                          Most of the young guys I work with own neither home or car. They definitely prize freedom. They love their bikes. Feel no need for a car. My teen son has no interest in getting his driver's license. Urban kids have completely different priorities. They do love to eat though.

                          1. re: Bkeats

                            All true. I was thinking of my own suburban exp. In a city you don't need a car, in suburbia you can only get so far. My youngest son lives in suburbia but works in the city he's never gotten his lic but when he needs a lift, he pays for the gas/ticket.The rest of my kids drive. Home ownership is another bag. What I would call moving on up doesn't seem to appeal to my kids as much as I thought it would. Shared apt. to own apt. to starter home..to nicer home. Most would rent until they could have their dream location..then a dream home. But they all want a home EVENTUALLY. I think the biggest diff is none of them have had their own kids yet.

                            1. re: Bkeats

                              Same story with my 16 year old. He can ride the bus, metro, bike or get parents to drive him so has zero interest in a license.

                              1. re: tcamp

                                Funny since Bkeats brought up driving. The last time I was speaking to my car insurance company the agent mentioned that the stats on young drivers has gone down. They attributed this to the costs assoc. w/car ownership of course but also all the scary stats out there on driver safety. So, do youI think the PSA's on txt/cell phone use/distracted driving and the fines imposed have had an impact on young people even wanting to drive at all.

                                1. re: HillJ

                                  My 25 yo has no license (and only marginally wants one, so he could do a rickshaw-type thing) and continues to bike (his livelihood depending upon it) throughout the winter in Minnesota. He refuses to text, because, well: on a bike. My 20 yo bikes as a result of her neighborhood attributes. She'll still text, dammit.

                                  Most of our kids' friends care far more about food than driving, and care far more about internet for information on food than books (despite my kids stealing my books; hooray!)

                          2. I like books. Real books made out of paper, as they have been for hundreds of years. I have a goodly number published in the 1920s. No electronic version is going to let me feel the history of the volume. No electronic version is going to replace the fun of browsing in second-hand bookshops - or the joy of finding another treasure.

                            (I also like the fact that, as an author, I make more money in royalties from real books, than I do for a Kindle version)

                            1 Reply
                            1. re: Harters

                              Harters writes: "(I also like the fact that, as an author, I make more money in royalties from real books, than I do for a Kindle version)"

                              LOL! Harters, you speak true! It's evil, but true! Just be grateful that you are not an author living in the United States! I think the turmoil is tougher here than in the rest of the world because we have become such a "cookie cutter" thinking nation. Today, the FIRST question from most good literary agents in this country is, "What are your last three best sellers?" To which I respond, "Hey, Dodo Bird, If I had three RECENT best sellers, why the hell would I be talking to you!"

                            2. I have a tablet computer but no e-books. Sometimes I use my iPad to shop for actual books. It's good for that.

                              1. I'm not sure what there is to rant about, especially since you apparently use ebooks yourself.

                                Personally I buy both, and some of my favorite cookbooks I have both in print and ebook form. I don't feel the need to be a purist about the form my reading takes. Sometimes one version is more convenient than the other

                                1. Your rant reminds me of the old commercial that had the monk viewing books with suspicion. He found great comfort with his scrolls. Did you have a difficult time letting go of the scrolls for books at first? ;)

                                  BTW, I'm confused by your problem with the inability to lend an e-cookbook when you say that you will only lend a book to someone if they are going to read it in your home. Huh?

                                  You know you can loan a kindle ebook?

                                  1 Reply
                                  1. re: Bkeats

                                    I guess I just haven't tried hard enough to loan out any eBooks. My reason for refusing to loan out ANY personal books is from a bad experience. Way back in the 70's, when Eric Berne's "Games People Play" was dancing at the top of the NY Times best seller list, I knew him professionally and he was in my office one day, saw my copy sitting on my desk, and spontaneously autographed it for me. So the book took on special meaning. A decade or so later, a friend of my mothers just HAD to read it but didn't want to buy it so my mother talked me into loaning her my copy. I did. She left it laying open in the front seat of her car during a rain storm with the windows down. Turned the book into papier mache! Since then, I have NEVER loaned a copy of ANY of my books to anyone. But if Eric had lived longer, he would have reaped some royalties from the copies I have bought and given away!

                                    I can see the advantage of eBooks, as in such a thing simply could not happen. On the other hand, have you ever seen a personally autographed first edition eBook? You pays your money and you takes your chances... '-)

                                  2. Agree wholeheartedly. We have walls of books and I have about a hundred cookbooks too. Don't have a kindle but use Eat Your Books and google, but it's hard to keep track with google. I print them out but don't have a mental picture of a page in a book. I think I read an article about this the other week regarding the mental impression made by seeing the page, feeling the paper, recalling the cover, etc. People are beginning to realize the importance of a real book. At least those of us who grew up in the era before ebooks.

                                    2 Replies
                                    1. re: sandiasingh

                                      I just relayed the story of an autographed book I loaned out that had a miserable result. But more than that, there is a phenomenon that does take place when you buy a book and physically read it and register all of the sensory memories associated with the book just as you mention. Once you make a book "yours" by reading it and creating that sensory perception of it in your psyche, if you lose that book or have to replace it for some reason, you will NOT be able to find things in the new book as easily as you did with the old copy until you have recreated that sensory experience all over again. And in some cases, you just can't do it ever... Such was the case with my copy of Games People Play...

                                      I worry about what all of the interacting with electronics instead of people will do to future generations. There was an article in the NY Times or whatever recently about the inevitability of the first app for babies, and.... It's here...!!!

                                      1. re: Caroline1

                                        With various devices it is, really, quite easy to share recipes. There are many times when I just take a couple shots with my phone of a recipe my kids are looking for from one of my books. They store it as a photo (like, a recipe card, y'know, on their device?) and everything's good.

                                        I absolutely get the physical book thing. I have spatters and marginal notes all over my cookbooks. I think my kids will do the same, but with different technologies, and with their own proclivities.

                                        I still write marginal notes in cookbooks, and my progeny will have to deal with it someday. Maybe with phone shots, who knows?

                                    2. Cookbooks (not the e kind) become our cooking buddies. They give me the warm and fuzzies. I have a big collection because I love them. I even have a collection of bad cookbooks I read because they make me laugh. I want to curl up by the fire with a real, paper book. I know exactly what you mean.

                                      1. I will buy hardcopy books if you will

                                        1) pay the international delivery charges to Amazon for me

                                        2) give me a monthly stipend to upgrade my living accommodations to something with room to fit more books.

                                        3) pay the international shipping charges when I move and want to take the books with me.

                                        Personally, I prefer reading hard-copies, and I don't like the selling model that Amazon employs. I love used book stores, libraries, borrowing and lending. At one point I owned about 2000 hardcopy books, of all sorts (I read, on average, about a book a day). A lovely record of who I was, yes. I had to sell them for next to nothing (I got about $100 out of it) because my mother was downsizing to a smaller place, and I didn't have the money to ship them to me, or the space to keep them.

                                        I live in a non-English speaking country. I'm in a city of 7 million people, and while you can buy English books, the selection for most subjects is about the level of a mall bookstore, circa 1980.

                                        So I went to ebooks because I can buy books in a language I can read and I can keep the books once I get them (plus, all the Gutenberg stuff can be downloaded for free, and reading classic books on an ereader beats reading them on a laptop).

                                        1. I'm with you, Caroline. I love to read but haven't been able to switch to e-anything. Can't read a paperback, either. It has to be hardback, and I sign and date it when finished like a giant nerd. My dream home will be filled with built-ins for books.

                                          I do, though, see the appeal of Kindle/other cookbooks for others. Thanks to CH, I've tried many recipes accessible to me by links. That means my iPad is in the kitchen, and it's been splattered upon many times.

                                          There is certainly a need/want for e-books, and it made me smile to read the soldier's story on this thread. Maybe one day I'll get with the program and use my tablet for more than news and CH:)

                                          1. For cookbooks, I definitely prefer the warm and fuzzy feeling of turning pages, looking through color photographs and referring back with ease.

                                            I own a kindle paper white. I purchased a book on nutrition with it and ended up purchasing the print copy after I realized it was too difficult for me to flip through and reference "pages" that I wanted to keep going back to.

                                            I love the kindle for novels though. For me, it's perfect for those. It's ok for traveling (I get annoyed at having to turn it off for take off and landing but love the fact that I can take a bunch of books with me on vacation without the extra weight.)

                                            I especially like the fact that I can read it at night with enough back light to be able to see the words without disturbing my husband (he can't sleep if the light next to my side of the bed is on.)

                                            But, like I said, for cookbooks (or other books where I like to go back again and again for reference,) I definitely prefer paper.

                                            1. As a comment to HillJ's reply...............

                                              Our son is 33 and works in the tech world (social media app developer and entrepreneur). We just had a discussion about almost this exact subject the other day. He, and he says almost every person his age and younger, is almost 100% a product of this world of digital media, smart devices, and (my take) very short attention spans for whatever input they use. I'm pretty certain this is a function of the sheer volume of input open to him and actually accessed by his 'generation'. Even their apparently ability to multi-task requires filtering out things that I'd consider important.

                                              He will only buy a physical book if he can't get it on a device. He has no interest in printed media in general. I don't think he's bought a music CD in over 5 years; everything is downloaded now.

                                              His occupation may make him a more intense product of this digital era, but he's not wrong when he says that's where all things are going. Our conversation was about news sources. He says that even the very most aware and bright people he knows can be very much unaware of major news stories because they don't watch TV and find most news apps take too much time to digest.

                                              He made one interesting point on this that is just a little scary. He said that he would like his news source to give him the basic context of a story in the first few words, even if it is an ongoing story. IE- if he's never found the time to know what the Affordable Care Act is, his first question is "what is it" at ANY point at which he becomes interested enough to read material. It's just a little scary to me that we have a generation of young people who have so much input to contend with that they don't take the time to learn about important stories until, I assume, there's just so much material out there that they HAVE to get caught up quickly.

                                              Yet............. a printed cookbook just seems like something that would be really hard to eliminate from the world. At least I would hope so.

                                              1 Reply
                                              1. re: Midlife

                                                I'm over here in the reading corner shaking my head in agreement :)

                                              2. Lifelong book lover here.

                                                However, having just completed the experience of cleaning out my parents' house in order to sell it, I can really see the disadvantages of physical books.

                                                We all took the books we wanted, then we sold books at the yard sale. But, after that, I had to have 22 boxes of books donated to the local library. They will try to sell them. But I bet a lot will end up in the land fill.

                                                Make sure that you have plans for your precious darlings! They are heavy.

                                                1. I'm a relative newcomer to ebooks, and for me, they're of limited value. I made the mistake of downloading a travel guide to my iPad for a recent trip to Italy, and I found it virtually unusable. It was cumbersome at best -- impossible to "flip through" sections and pages, and the indexing wasn't much help. OTOH, I was able to download a few novels from my local library for that same trip, and that worked out just fine.

                                                  As for eCookbooks, well, you already know my take on that -- for me, eBooks will never take the place of the real thing. I'll prop the iPad up on the kitchen counter to follow recipes, but that's totally different from reading or cooking from a cookbook.

                                                  1. I don't like electronic cookbooks... you need an actual hard printed copy to use in the kitchen - if you pull something off the internet it's easy to print it out, but when it's in your kindle it's electronically held hostage there forever. And it's really hard to find something again!

                                                    I do love my kindle for light reading though... but not for recipe books or anything that's supposed to have pictures in it.

                                                    1 Reply
                                                    1. re: Kajikit

                                                      My experience with the Kindle is that it works best for fairly simple printed text, without much in the way of illustrations/plots/equations, where you don't want to flip back and forth quickly.

                                                      I don't like it for tech manuals or poetry and drama, where formatting is more of an issue.

                                                      My husband uses an iPad for reading academic papers, and loves it - it cuts way down on printing, you can annotate papers, sort them easily, and search for keywords, and the larger, scrollable colour display lets you read them properly.

                                                    2. Not a single one of my 5,000 cookbooks can be remotely deactivated at the whim of the e-publisher, and that's the way I like it.