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Another Windsor for Sue...

kaleokahu Aug 20, 2013 05:33 PM

Couldn't find the right post to respond to (through all the drool over Demeyre) so here's one that might have been over looked: http://www.demeyere.be/default.asp?CI...

And it's Demeyere!


  1. s
    sueatmo Aug 20, 2013 05:39 PM

    Looks lovely. I imagine it would make gorgeous sauces.

    2 Replies
    1. re: sueatmo
      Sid Post Aug 21, 2013 08:07 PM

      To each their own, I'm not attracted to the Pawson style. I'm sure they are fine pans but, I'll stick to my Atlantis models (if it ain't broke, don't fix it ;-).

      1. re: sueatmo
        DuffyH Aug 21, 2013 09:53 PM


        Now that my culinary confusion is gone, are you picky about Windsor vs Saucier? What size do you want?

        I'm still looking for you. :)

      2. DuffyH Aug 21, 2013 08:51 PM

        This is a perfect opportunity to clear up something I'm finding confusing. Windsor or Saucier?

        I always thought Windsors had flared but straight sides (no curves), with a sharp-ish angle where base meets wall, ala saucepans. Sort of like really tall-sided Lyonnaise frypans.

        I thought sauciers had more curve to the walls, with a gentle arc where the sidewall meets the base, to allow for use of a whisk. Sort of like a tall-sided skillet.

        Then of course we have to bring in terms like Conical Sauteuse and Chef's Pan. Have I been wrong all this time? Are they, practically speaking, one and the same?

        14 Replies
        1. re: DuffyH
          kaleokahu Aug 21, 2013 09:29 PM

          Hi, Duffy:

          Yes, I think strictly speaking, a Windsor or fait tout or sauteuse evassee has straight angled walls and a "sauciere" (there is no such shape in the classic French batterie) has curved walls.

          They *are* one and the same in terms of the big advantage: high surface-to-volume ratio along with *maintaining* that ratio well as the volume reduces. Frankly, the Windsor is better (more linear) at the latter aspect.

          The "corners" thing always makes me smile. Whisks fit into tighter corners than the makers of these pans want us to believe, and IMO there is no practical difference between the "corner" of a Windsor and a sauciere. The fact that the splayed rims of these pans makes *wielding* a whisk easier is more important IMO than the "corners".


          1. re: kaleokahu
            DuffyH Aug 21, 2013 09:50 PM


            Thanks for clarifying. However...

            <... IMO there is no practical difference between the "corner" of a Windsor and a sauciere. The fact that the splayed rims of these pans makes *wielding* a whisk easier is more important IMO than the "corners".>

            Au contraire, mon ami. Having used a whisk in my 12" Lodge CI skillet, my Cal. saucier and Cal. saucepan, there's less difference between the Lodge and saucepan, than between the Lodge and saucier. For sure, the wider mouth of the saucier is a big advantage vs whisking in a saucepan, but my roux can attest that obtuse angles are not as good as arcs, not nearly.

            1. re: DuffyH
              kaleokahu Aug 21, 2013 10:26 PM

              Hi, Duffy:

              I think you either have too large a whisk for your pan or you're making hella deep quantities of roux.

              You see, here's another instance of "progress" interfering with cooking. My preferred whisks for saucing are old-school birch, $4 from Fantes. They have *two* loops (4 tines). They naturally fit into all these supposedly too-tight corners by just lightly pressing. If you're using something rigid or a balloon whisk, I can understand the problem. Better the $4 solution than a $300 one? Even the old spring whisks solve this "corners" problem.

              Here's another issue with the Windsor/Saucieres: capacity. I recently picked up a Gaillard Windsor and discarded a same-diameter Mauviel saucepan. The Gaillard is a fantastic pan, but its capacity is more like my next-smallest conventional saucepan, leaving me a hole in my batterie. I have neither the room nor the cash for PARALLEL 2cm-increment sets of Windsors and straight-walls, let alone the newly-invented saucieres.


              1. re: kaleokahu
                DuffyH Aug 22, 2013 06:52 AM


                My whisk is stiff, yes, with 11wires. It's narrow, not a balloon. But it's not just about a whisk. Spoons work better in a saucier, too. In my angled-corner pans I have to turn the spoon just so to stir in the corners, not so with a saucier.

                I don't get your issue with capacity. I buy tall pans based on capacity, not on diameter, because diameter tells us very little about such pans. Diameter is how I purchase short pans.

                On a side note, I'm about ready to return my new Demeyere 3.5 qt saucier because I'm finding it's not a suitable replacement for my 4.5 qt. saucepan and it's too large for a mid-size pan. My older 3 qt saucier is interchangeable with my 2.5 qt saucepan, so I'll likely stay within the 2.5-3 qt range for a saucier. It's a lesson I don't mind learning. These things are good to know.

                It would be nice to continue with the set I have (1.5 qt, 2.5-3 qt, 4.5 qt plus 8 qt DO) as I find those sizes meet my needs beautifully, but that would mean putting up with my POS stove, so no.

                1. re: DuffyH
                  laraffinee Aug 22, 2013 07:13 AM

                  I also did not get the 3.5 qt saucier - when i looked at the dimensions it just looked too big for my purposes, so I got the 2.6 qt and it is perfect. The 3.5 qt seems to be made for large quantity sauce production.

                  1. re: laraffinee
                    DuffyH Aug 22, 2013 07:38 AM

                    I quite agree. I'm finding it to be an awkward size. Too small for chili, soup or my grandsons favorite popcorn, too big for sauces and gravies.

                    I'm simmering marinara in my 3 qt pan now, and it's just fine. The pan is about 2/3 full with my standard amount of this sauce. 2.5-3 quarts will hit my sweet spot for the saucier's best features, I think.

                    I'll be watching for a mark-down. :)

                  2. re: DuffyH
                    kaleokahu Aug 22, 2013 07:32 AM

                    Hi, Duffy: "In my angled-corner pans I have to turn the spoon just so to stir in the corners, not so with a saucier."

                    Gosh, you must have a highly specialized stirring spoon for it to perfectly fit tight into the corner from every angle.

                    "I buy tall pans based on capacity, not on diameter, because diameter tells us very little about such pans."

                    Well, when you get a chance to trade up to an extra-fort Gaillard Windsor in great shape at a reasonable price, you jump and worry about capacity comparisons later. You should try one one sometime, even on that de buyer converter disk.


                    1. re: kaleokahu
                      DuffyH Aug 22, 2013 12:19 PM


                      I mention that spoons don't quite fit into the corners of saucepans and you go all snarky on me? What's that about?

                      You hate induction. I get that. But I can only think you were joking when you suggested I buy an otherwise useless copper pan then upend a steel crepe pan or shell out $$ to buy a disk that turns induction back into my most hated cooktop, all so I can slow the response of this fabulous pan. You are joking, right?

                      1. re: DuffyH
                        kaleokahu Aug 22, 2013 06:54 PM

                        Hi, Duffy:

                        Sorry if you found snark where none was intended. I've not talked up the "corners" issue with you previously, but it's come up several times before. I've just yet to see the problems others seem to have ID'd that would be solved by a sauciere-shaped sidewall. They *all* have corners most spoons will not fit into unless turned on-edge.

                        I really don't *hate* induction. It's just a different modality with its own ups and downs; people think I'm a hater when I question it as a panacea.

                        I don't view the converter disks with as much disdain as you apparently do, and I don't agree that their use entirely defeats the purpose of having induction. I've yet to do any systematic tests with the disks, but now that I have the 110VAC Aroma, a Kill-A-Watt meter and an IR thermometer gun, I'd like to run some with good copper vs clad. I've always theorized that: (a) clad is a (an empirical) drag on induction's efficiency; and (b) good copper on a converter disk may be much closer than people think to clad-on-induction in terms of responsiveness, efficiency and energy use, perhaps better. It was from this perspective that I suggested you try that combination sometime, not from Snarkovia, although your prior diss of the de Buyer converter fit the expression. Were you to find an extra-fort Gaillard Windsor, I think you'd like how it performs, even on a converter disk.

                        If it's any comfort to you, even c oliver has said she wants a converter for her non-compatible cookware, e.g., her Turkish coffee maker.


                        1. re: kaleokahu
                          DuffyH Aug 22, 2013 08:11 PM


                          I only saw snark in the spoon comment, not the follow-on discussion of the copper Windsor pan. I wasn't dissing the DeBuyer converter disk, but going back to your old rec to another 'Hound to try a DB crepe pan as a converter. I thought you 'got' that it was that I was talking about when I said their converter disk sucked. It appears we misread each other. I'm sorry.

                          As much as I'd like to try a copper pan, I'd have to buy both the pan (which is what, like $350, when they can be found?) but the converter disk, too. We're now over $400 for a fancy saucepan, yes? I'm a girl with a budget, my friend. I do intend to spring for a good saucier and would certainly consider a Windsor shape, but not at $400. I'm willing to go as high as perhaps $200 for a *great* frypan and up to $150 for the saucier, but that's my upper limit. Even that will be straining the budget.

                          I know c oliver loves her Turkish coffee pot, but I've got no specialty or sentimental pieces that would require a converter disk and don't foresee a need for one. So I'll be going 100% magnetic cookware. With so much cookware to choose from, and reviews from plenty of 'Hounds who use it the same way I will, I'm sure to find plenty of pieces that will serve me well.

                    2. re: DuffyH
                      KungPaoDumplings Aug 22, 2013 05:21 PM

                      I'm sorry the pot didn't work out for you, but I'm really glad you know what you need now.

                      As you said these things are good to know.

                      I hope your next pot works out! Tell us when you hone in on what you buy.

                      1. re: KungPaoDumplings
                        DuffyH Aug 22, 2013 08:14 PM


                        Thanks. I agree. Finding out what doesn't work can be more revealing than finding something that does work.

                        1. re: DuffyH
                          KungPaoDumplings Aug 25, 2013 11:23 AM

                          Are those ducklings covered in Kung Pao sauce or are those ducklings that make Kung Pao?

                          I feel the same way, it's always more informative to me to find something I thought would work and didn't and figure out why that is and further know myself in the kitchen.

                    3. re: kaleokahu
                      Caroline1 Aug 22, 2013 08:27 PM

                      It seems backward to me to try to buy a pan to fit a whisk! I may come close to having as many whisks as (currently used) pans! The majority are balloon whisks, but even among those I have some made of very thin flexible wires that will get into the tightest corners of the most whisk resistant pan! I also have a balloon whisk (NO idea why I ever bought it) that is an appropriate size for cooking in a washtub at the Texas State Fair! Except for the State Fair whisk, they all sit in a large size empty Pommery mustard jar on my kitchen counter. I highly recommend fully flexible balloon whisks! Way to go!

              2. s
                sueatmo Aug 25, 2013 06:08 PM

                Wow, I get back to town and find a real great discussion about Windsors. I don't anything about the technique, really, or the reason why I liked my Windsor. I didn't use it all that much. But when I needed it I really liked it.

                I liked the pan for making cheese sauce, or gravy. And I really liked it for cooking hot cereal. It is great for that. Perhaps I will eventually spring for an All Clad. That seems the most likely candidate, although for my needs, it is pretty pricey.

                13 Replies
                1. re: sueatmo
                  Robin Joy Aug 25, 2013 08:51 PM

                  Yes Sue, those Clad prices are pretty scary!

                  Can you get these in the US?:


                  I have one and it's in use all the time. I wouldn't really call it a saute pan, but it's a great pan.

                  Around $50 inc. lid.

                  Edit: I see that Nisbets have a US site:


                  1. re: Robin Joy
                    sueatmo Aug 25, 2013 09:40 PM

                    That looks like a saucier to me. But what do I know? I actually have a small AC saucier.

                    And the Nisbets don't seem to be induction capable.

                    1. re: sueatmo
                      kaleokahu Sep 6, 2013 09:07 PM

                      Hi, Sue:

                      Have you see this: http://www.surlatable.com/product/PRO... ?

                      You even get a free towel!


                      1. re: kaleokahu
                        sueatmo Sep 6, 2013 10:25 PM

                        Its a beautiful pot. It is far nicer than I need, frankly. But it would me a joy to use, I am sure.

                        1. re: sueatmo
                          DuffyH Sep 7, 2013 01:20 AM

                          It really is pretty, for sure.

                          sue, how are you liking your Sitrams after owning them for a while now?

                          I can't believe it's come to this, but I'm considering some heavy disk bottom stuff, thinking perhaps it's time to get over my bias. that's where your input will help.

                          Specifically, I like the Berghoff Acadian line. It's got a disk similar to the Demeyere Atlantis, that completely covers the bottom of the pot. Some reviews mention the weight, so hmmm. I may go to the Berghoff outlet and check them out this weekend. With any luck, I'll find them sold singly there, not just in sets.


                          1. re: DuffyH
                            sueatmo Sep 8, 2013 03:42 PM

                            I finally used my big rondeau last night. This is the pan I intend to use for braising and making big pots of stew. I made calico chili, and it was delicious. Making it was super easy on my big induction hob. I get very good control for the initial saute, and then for the simmer. I am still learning how to reduce the heat smoothly. But the pot is so responsive I didn't have any sticking issues, with the use of very little bacon fat as my cooking fat. After I put the meat in, I deglazed with red wine, and went from there. Went to simmer gradually, and left it alone for awhile.

                            The rondeau was ordered with the recommended lid, which is a Caterer piece, and is heavier than the Profiserie lid which I got with the chef's pan.

                            The disk in these pans is set back from the outer edge of the pan bottom. The only problem with this that I can see, is when I do something like scrambled eggs, there can be a bit of cooked on food along the outer edge of the pan. But mostly this has not been a problem. I made a large batch of scrambled eggs last weekend without the cooked on stuff, so maybe I am improving my technique.

                            The disk in the bottom of the pans is really thick. You could always order one of these to see if you like it. If you don't you can return.

                            The Berghoff stuff is really pretty.

                            1. re: sueatmo
                              DuffyH Sep 9, 2013 06:34 AM


                              I'm so glad you're enjoying your pans. It's also good to know the base of the Sitram is thick. I like that.

                              How do they feel in the hand, balance-wise? I've read that some people find they feel off-balance because of the weight distribution, with so much of the weight in the base of the pan. And how does the overall weight compare to other pans?

                              I've only got 2 disk-bottom pans, a 1.5 quart cheap from Calph. "pots and pans" line, and my 8-qt dutch oven. It's kind of hard to get a feel for them with just those 2 pans.

                              1. re: DuffyH
                                sueatmo Sep 19, 2013 06:30 PM

                                I like how they feel in my hand very well. They feel balanced to me. My favorite thing is how responsive they are. I really enjoy sauteeing in the chef's pan. I thought the rondeau was equally responsive. I haven't had a chance to put that pan fully through its paces yet.

                                Right now I am out of town and wishing for my kitchen, cooktop, freezer and pantry.

                                My older Cuisinart pans were disk bottomed pans, not induction friendly, and I think the pans themselves might have been heavier, but the bottom not as much. At any rate the handle on the chef's pan is extra long, and it handles very well.

                                The other induction ready pans I have have the encapsulated bottoms.

                            2. re: DuffyH
                              kaleokahu Sep 8, 2013 04:19 PM

                              Hi, Duffy:

                              You realize this is non-stick, right? And the disk bottoms are 3mm of aluminum? The average weight is <4 lbs/pot (with covers) too, so I wouldn't sweat the weight.


                              1. re: kaleokahu
                                DuffyH Sep 9, 2013 06:20 AM

                                Good morning Kaleo,

                                <You realize this is non-stick, right?>

                                You mean the Berghoff Acadian I linked? Nope, it's all stainless, in and out. Watch the video, just at the beginning. The guy lifts the lid of the sauté pan. No non-stick in sight.

                                The product description is confusing, because they've slapped their entire Earthchef catalog in there. The first item in the catalog is the non-stick aluminum. The video is more enlightening than the print.

                                <And the disk bottoms are 3mm of aluminum?>

                                At 48 seconds into the video, they list the layers in the stainless line:

                                Chromotanium capsule - I kid you not, that's what it says!
                                aluminum alloy
                                Memory carbon steel - What's there to forget?
                                aluminum alloy
                                18/10 surgical stainless steel - good to know, in case you need to quickly fashion some tools for your basement surgical suite.

                                Aside from the giggle factor of terms like Chromotanium, Memory and Surgical, it looks like carbon steel with aluminum bonding. An aluminum base would be fine, too, very responsive. No matter what it's made of, I do like that it goes edge to edge, like the Demeyere, covering the entire pan base. That's hard to find.

                                1. re: DuffyH
                                  kaleokahu Sep 9, 2013 07:43 AM

                                  Hi, Duffy:

                                  That ad copy is clear as mud as to which one they're selling on Amazon. PTFE- and PFOA-free *stainless*? Using the term "Earthchef" confuses it even more.

                                  It's obvious that Berghoff has plain and nonstick versions. I just want you to get the version you want.


                                  1. re: kaleokahu
                                    DuffyH Sep 9, 2013 08:02 AM


                                    Thank you. To help us out, Berghoff also has an EarthChef copper clad line, and some of the stainless frypans are... wait for it.... non-stick. The copper line isn't mentioned in the ad copy at all.

                                    I'm fortunate to live a few miles from Berghoff's US HQ, where they've got a big-ass store of all their stuff. I'll be checking them out in person.

                    2. re: sueatmo
                      DuffyH Aug 26, 2013 05:50 AM

                      Welcome back, sue

                      <But when I needed it I really liked it.>

                      Reason enough to look for another, IMO. You'll find one, I'm certain. :)

                    3. DuffyH Sep 19, 2013 05:32 PM


                      I just came across another pan you might like, if you're in the market for a big honking pot. Here's the link: http://www.amazon.com/Homichef-14-25-...

                      This is an amazing buy. If I had a need for anything nearly this big I'd jump on it. It holds 18.5 quarts. The lid is $42, for a total of $65. It's reputed to have a 1/2" thick slab bottom.

                      Amazon doesn't say it's magnetic, but Cuilinary Kitchenware does.

                      1 Reply
                      1. re: DuffyH
                        sueatmo Sep 19, 2013 06:40 PM

                        Um, no. Looks like a nice pan. I found the distributor, Eurodib, which carry a lot of unfamiliar lines. Alse DeBuyer, which you are always reading about on this board.

                        I don't use a large pan very often. I don't know whether it would be worthwhile to buy one, frankly.

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