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help me chose a new range/cooktop

s
Suechee Aug 12, 2013 02:04 PM

We are planning a long-awaited kitchen addition. We have been making due with the current space for almost 20 years, and look forward to another 20 in the renovated space, so re-sale is not an issue for us. Both of us are avid cooks/bakers, and so we want something reliable and functional. (Our current Kitchenaid range has been nothing but trouble.)

Two questions:

We aren't sure whether to purchase a dual fuel range, or a gas cooktop, and a wall oven (or 2).

For those of you who purchased premium brand, are you glad you did? (We have looked at Wolf and Thermador, but are they genuinely a better purchase than more reasonably priced brands?)

Thanks for listening - this is very overwhelming...

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  1. c oliver RE: Suechee Aug 12, 2013 02:32 PM

    I'd do a search here for induction and, if you're not familiar with the technology, there's tons of info on the net. I've had it for several years and would NEVER go back (down) to gas.

    1. s
      Suechee RE: Suechee Aug 12, 2013 02:41 PM

      Really? Why do you prefer it to gas?

      5 Replies
      1. re: Suechee
        c oliver RE: Suechee Aug 12, 2013 02:49 PM

        Rather than start from the beginning, here are a whole bunch of CH links that can get you started.

        https://www.google.com/search?q=chowh...

        1. re: Suechee
          kaleokahu RE: Suechee Aug 12, 2013 03:44 PM

          Hi, Sue:

          If you want to spare yourself hours of (repetitive) reading, the main reasons one might prefer induction over gas can be found at the bottom of the following list. The main reasons to favor gas over induction are at the top.

          Reasons to Reconsider Induction (Over Gas):

          Relies Heavily on Electronics
          --When they fail , it’s commonly a CATO failure—replace the whole unit
          --Accelerating obsolescence/parts issues
          --Vulnerability to power surges
          --While induction itself isn’t new, the sensor, circuit boards/modules and interlock technology is, and bugs remain

          Loses functionality in power outage
          --And/or may overtax backup generator capacity
          --Portable units may require short or heavy-duty extension cords

          Heat Unevenness
          --“Ring” hotspots corresponding to coil (CI, steel, thin pans can exacerbate)
          --No heat delivered to sides of pan—all from the bottom

          No flame for roasting (peppers, tomatoes, etc.)

          Glass top is delicate
          —shouldn’t shake pans
          --can scratch/crack
          --cost of special cleansers
          --may feel need to keep 100% sparkling

          Glass top is flat
          --no warped pans
          --no rounded wok bottoms (except for specialty hobs)
          --reflectivity can make controls/settings hard to read

          Noise
          --Cooling fan cycling
          --Clicking
          --Humming

          Electrical service
          --Some models require 50-amp circuits
          --1800W/110VAC units can overtax circuits in older houses in competition with other appliances

          Pan Limitations
          --No straight-gauge copper or aluminum, conventional bimetal copper, pyrex, ceramic or stone—may need to buy new pans/discard old
          --Not all “compatible” pans perform equally—must learn different settings for same size/shape pans
          --Pan size must trigger detector circuit (can’t be too small)
          --Pans should be nearly perfectly flat

          Complicated/Counterintuitive Controls
          --Heat delivery often not linear
          --Some models can’t pre-heat pans except at highest settings
          --Highest settings often too high except for speed boiling (e.g., 6-10 useless)
          --Highest and “Boost” settings can quickly crack and/or warp pans
          --Discrete, not infinitely adjustable settings
          --Temperature settings notoriously inaccurate (too many pan/sensor variables)
          --Safety interlocks can interrupt cooking and switching pans
          --Digital vs analog familiarity and aesthetic—do you like digital watches, car instruments, etc.?
          --Multiple steps and button-pushes required for simple tasks

          # of Years to Recoup Price is Longer Than Expected
          --Electricity savings smaller than expected
          --Coil doesn’t use much anyway
          --Oven is still resistive electric
          --No home heating offset

          No instant tactile/visual feedback from heat source--you're flying by instruments

          Environmental
          --semiconductor/heavy metal disposal
          --May support “dirty” electricity generation, depending on locale

          On the Other Hand…

          Very fast water boiling—top-end power equivalent to commercial gas
          Most child safe of all
          Very little fire hazard
          Nothing to clean but the glass
          Functionally as responsive as gas; theoretically a little better
          Heat can be made pretty even by using the best, thickest compatible clad (at expense of pan responsiveness)
          Sleek, black, modern, open, tech-y look
          Heat can be set very low (gas and electric may require a simmer plate)
          Cooler kitchen in summertime
          Perhaps no need for exhaust hood
          No combustion gases in kitchen
          Doesn’t require installation of a gas line
          Better models have a wide range of settings—theoretically means finer control
          Theoretically conserves electricity/saves utility costs

          Aloha,
          Kaleo

          1. re: kaleokahu
            Candy RE: kaleokahu Aug 15, 2013 10:46 AM

            Is the sky falling? The negatives you list are a bit over the top. Noise is not an annoyance to me. The fan is no worse than an exhaust fan. I have no hot spots,explain to me how the heat from induction can crack or warp a pan. I use Chantal plas with a heavy bottom and have a lining of copper and carbon steel. I use Le Creuset, you are more likely to break on by dropping it. Prices are coming down as they become more popular. Sizes? My burner is designed to accommodate different sizes. On or off or change the heat setting, no bells and whistles.Power outages? Your electric range won't work anyway and some igniters on gas tops won't work either. Anyway I could go through your list of negatives and point out why most of what you are listing are no longer (or almost)detraction's. Like COliver I have been cooking for over 50 years and have used a wide variety of cooking surfaces and induction is by far a better option.

            1. re: Candy
              kaleokahu RE: Candy Aug 15, 2013 11:55 AM

              Hi, Candy:

              My list was intended to catalogue the ups and downs of the induction vs. gas comparison as reflected by reports from users here and elsewhere. For example, some induction users *have* expressed annoyance at the noise, cracked and warped pans, overly complicated controls, etc., etc.

              Your and others' experience is obviously different. Your Chantal pans or your particular cooktop may have something to do with some of that. But induction works for you, and you like it. That's great, and I'm happy for you.

              There are ups and downs to all the different cooking modalities. When someone posts that any one has no downsides (or just says "Get induction, it's wonderful!") then they're inviting a response that includes the rest to go along with the good.

              And, for the record, I think that progress *has* been made with induction appliances. The Miele that was linked in this thread is a great example, having two concentric coils. The abandonment of temperature settings is another that is in progress.

              LOL, I've only been cooking for 40 years, so do you think my facts and opinions are worth 80% of those offered by a 50-year cook? Where would this end? Would the opinion of a centenarian with 85 years' cooking experience matter more? I find this whole "decades of experience" comparison a little silly.

              Aloha,
              Kaleo

              1. re: Candy
                mcf RE: Candy Aug 29, 2013 10:35 AM

                You can light a gas stove with a match, gotta call you out on that one. :-)

          2. t
            ThanksVille RE: Suechee Aug 12, 2013 05:54 PM

            Suechee we endured almost 25 years of a livable but uninspired kitchen for two home cooks and a culinary daughter until our cabinets finally delaminated, our Formica counter opened at its seams and a stupid, underpowered, slow to respond glasstop range bit the dust in the same week our jet engine loud dishwasher finally caused a noise complaint from a next door neighbor.

            No any surprises there. We spent at least the prior year looking, test driving, going to cooking demonstrations, and talking to every active chef we knew soliciting their recommendations for tight home kitchens.

            We finally took the plunge ordering a great BlueStar 36" gas range with a huge convection roasting oven and built the rest of a kitchen of our dreams around that workhorse. Added a stack of very precise Miele electric ovens; warming drawer, convection bake oven and a combination speed oven that gets more use than ever imagined. Added a prep/bar sink for a small espresso/coffee counter and a huge wash sink with a minimal garbage disposal side sink. We included a near silent Miele dishwasher that allows us to run a wash cycle during dinners without disrupting a conversation. While we chose not to upgrade our French door refrigerator we detailed the surrounding cabinets and bookshelves to permit us to replace it with an oversized, counter depth unit without the need for a carpenter.

            Bunch of other features that have really made the pain of living for months with construction dust and lots of Chinese takeout an almost fond memory.

            After living with our decisions for several years now, our appliance choices have proven their worth and all the other details that took us a year or more to plan and research still hold great personal value to us. Hopefully we'll enjoy this kitchen for at least a couple decades.

            1. DeeAgeaux RE: Suechee Aug 12, 2013 06:47 PM

              I would pass on dual fuel.

              A premium price for an electric oven that does not cost any more to build than a gas oven. Each type of oven has pros and cons.

              If looking at gas burners I would look at true open burners which are not only very powerful but provide very even heat.

              If looking for a gas cooktop look at Bluestar RNB.

              If looking for a rangetop look at Bluestar RNB and Capital Culinarian.

              If looking for a range with self clean look at All-Gas Capital Culinarian with optional self-clean oven.

              If looking at electric wall ovens 1) Gaggenau 2) Wolf 3) If first two options too expensive look at Electrolux.

              If looking at induction cooktops 1) Themador 2) Gaggenau 3) Miele 4) Wolf

              I have cooked on a Thermador induction cooktop that had the most powerful hob on the market at 4.6kw.

              I bought a 36" Capital Culinarian with self-clean oven and a 24" Gaggenau wall oven with side opening door(no need to reach over hot oven door) and catalytic air cleaner that cleans air of grease before exiting into kitchen.

              Small oven for most daily jobs and baking.

              Big oven for big jobs like roasting large cuts of meat.

              7 Replies
              1. re: DeeAgeaux
                c oliver RE: DeeAgeaux Aug 12, 2013 06:57 PM

                Great info!

                1. re: DeeAgeaux
                  wekick RE: DeeAgeaux Aug 13, 2013 01:37 PM

                  Please explain why you wouldn't have a high end electric oven in a range but you would on a wall. Some people only have room for a range or want the functionality of a high end electric oven on all ovens they own.

                  A high end electric oven does cost more to build due to additional elements and fans and the computers to coordinate them. There are often additional refinements and to do it well, it costs money. I find it amazing that people will spend as much as they would on a high end electric on an gas oven that does not have these functions. To each his own.

                  As much as I love the way they fuction I could not recommend Wolf or Electrolux due to the chipping of the enamel. How did you arrive at these ratings on ovens?

                  1. re: wekick
                    DeeAgeaux RE: wekick Aug 13, 2013 05:14 PM

                    An electric oven does not cost more to build.

                    Gas ovens also have convection and cooling fans.

                    In place of electronics like computers you have expensive to mill intake manifolds and other metal parts.

                    I would pay for an good quality electric wall oven but not pay the huge premium that appliance companies charge to put one in a range with gas rangetops.

                    I have not read of Wolf or Electrolux ovens built in the last three years having chipping enamel. There may be a few but every appliance has a few defects.

                    1. re: DeeAgeaux
                      wekick RE: DeeAgeaux Aug 13, 2013 06:14 PM

                      There are some on gardenweb in the last year.

                      1. re: wekick
                        DeeAgeaux RE: wekick Aug 13, 2013 06:51 PM

                        Made in the last three years?

                        I see people bitch quite loudly for the slightest imperfection.

                        Have not seen these, and as you know I read GW quite a bit.

                        1. re: DeeAgeaux
                          wekick RE: DeeAgeaux Aug 13, 2013 09:57 PM

                          Mine is down to bare metal in places. The problem is that once you have crazing every time the metal heats and cools, the cracks move against each other and the metal and tiny shards of the porcelain flake off and may become airborne.

                          In the last three years

                          I missed this
                          http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/...

                          breezygirl here
                          http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/...

                          kalapointer first oven cracked at 2.5 years and was replaced in April now cracking again

                          http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/...

                          http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/...

                          rhome410
                          http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/...

                          her blog with more details and a photo
                          http://rhome410.blogspot.com/2013/01/...

                  2. re: DeeAgeaux
                    s
                    sueatmo RE: DeeAgeaux Aug 13, 2013 03:03 PM

                    If you are looking at induction I would suggest Bosch.

                  3. s
                    Suechee RE: Suechee Aug 12, 2013 08:20 PM

                    This is all very useful information - thank you so much for taking the time to respond.

                    1. b
                      blastingcap RE: Suechee Aug 13, 2013 01:04 AM

                      I'm with DeeAgeaux on not going dual-fuel absent a compelling reason.

                      Just a word of advice when you read forum posts: some people are extremely biased. For instance, some people are very vocal about induction's environmental impact, yet say nothing about the environmental impact of natural gas drilling and fracking.

                      Then they make up other problems like glass scratching, ignoring how you can simply put a paper towel or newspaper or even a real towel on an induction cooktop while you cook if you are worried about that kind of stuff.

                      They'll even make a fuss about not being able to cook during power outages but make no mention of how you're supposed to cook during a gas leak or outage.

                      They'll sneer at induction unreliability without giving credit to how even U.S. induction ranges have gotten better over the years, let alone European and Asian ranges (where induction is very popular). See: http://www.consumer.org.nz/reports/in... (after 5 years, 90 percent of gas and 89 percent of tested induction cookers did not need repair).

                      Contrary to what some might tell you. Induction is more responsive than gas. Grates remain hot for a while even when you turn off gas; with induction the heating element IS the pan, so when it's off, it's off. And induction pours heat into cookware faster as well. http://www.cheftalk.com/t/29609/induc...

                      Some people only look at real or imagined negatives of electronics but gloss over the positives. For instance, some ranges let you set a temperature and time, so you can set, for instance, a three hour simmer at x degrees. Some induction ranges do have dials. Some have even more advanced features.

                      Etc. etc. etc. all the way down the line. You get the point: some people pretend to be even-handed but are extremely biased. But as long as you keep in mind how biased some people can be, and filter out the chaff, you can still find good information here.

                      For more even-handed treatment of gas vs induction:

                      http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/din...

                      Consumer Reports has a paywall but they gave the edge to induction. http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/co...

                      Youtube videos:

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWxr3m...

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpmdFJ...

                      Induction ranges are far better than cheapo little portable induction units. And even among ranges, not all induction is created the same, e.g., this is a high-end unit that allows you to cook pretty much wherever you want on the surface with even heating: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWlhfv... And other high-end ranges have dual coils if you are worried about burner size to cookware size mismatches: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_smXRt... But really, as long as you match burner size to pan bottom size you will be fine even without these high-end tricks; it is patently absurd and false to say that you need the "thickest" pans to get even heating on induction. If it was even on a gas burner, it'll be even on induction, assuming comparable burner sizes. Yeah gas will spread the heat around somewhat more than induction (unless it's one of the high-end variants discussed above), but it's not a huge difference, and much of those hot gases roll away and get wasted.

                      For me, the clean-up advantages of induction alone are a huge selling point to me (both cleaning the range itself of carbonized crud or spills, as well as the cookware bottom). I also like the speed and efficiency of induction and safety etc. etc. but those are just gravy to me. (The Dept of Energy has done an analysis and yes, induction came out on top as most efficient overall... gas is carried to your home efficiently where it then inefficiently cooks things with lots of waste heat; electric and induction are the opposite with loss of efficiency at the power plant but the rest of the chain being relatively efficient.

                      )

                      I would recommend that you go to an appliance retailer and try out various ranges in person. Also consider getting a portable gas burner for those rare situations where you might want gas for some reason.

                      Good luck with your choice, whatever it may be!

                      20 Replies
                      1. re: blastingcap
                        g
                        gourmanda RE: blastingcap Aug 13, 2013 06:39 AM

                        And remember, people can be as biased toward induction as against it ;)

                        1. re: blastingcap
                          h
                          hawkeyeui93 RE: blastingcap Aug 13, 2013 06:43 AM

                          With all due respect, I do not read your post as unbiased either. Further, the OP did not ask about induction, but instead about duel fuel and gas. So, why on earth are people trying to talk him or her into something outside of the range of advise asked for at present? Just curious.

                          1. re: hawkeyeui93
                            c oliver RE: hawkeyeui93 Aug 13, 2013 08:07 AM

                            When I first mentioned induction, it seemed to me that OP wasn't at all familiar with the technology. That's why I just gave her a single link of things she could read or not. I would have to say that I'm unbiased having used 'regular' electric, gas and induction over the course of about 50 years of cooking. For me, it's just all round superior but saying that's how I think is based on daily usage for several years. And my apologies to OP that any mention of induction does seem to bring out great 'passion.'

                            1. re: c oliver
                              h
                              hawkeyeui93 RE: c oliver Aug 13, 2013 09:00 AM

                              Sorry I came off as snarky. I certainly do not have as much experience with all of the technologies [I'm only in my mid-40's], but I prefer gas and could live with induction [and have]. My concern is that the OP wanted X and Y and talking about Z could increase her feelings of being already overwhelmed.

                          2. re: blastingcap
                            kaleokahu RE: blastingcap Aug 13, 2013 08:38 AM

                            Hi, blastingcap:

                            We can debate all these things if you want. But I have to respond to the following doozer that typifies the pollyanna over induction:

                            "Grates remain hot for a while even when you turn off gas; with induction the heating element IS the pan, so when it's off, it's off."

                            The Ceran surface holds heat well after an induction hob is "off". It makes no difference that the *power* is off, or that the heat originated in the pan; the hot glass still imparts heat to the pan. If you don't believe me, the next time you deep-fry on your induction hob, move the pan off the hob and put your palm on the glass!

                            Furthermore, the glass, being flat, heats the pan *over the whole bottom area*. Gas spiders on the other hand, usually (and intentionally) contact the bottom in very small spots. Someone should do an actual thermal comparison sometime, but "off" is obviously not off for either gas or induction simply by turning the hob off. "Off" is attainable by moving the pan, just as it's always been.

                            Gas outages, really?

                            Aloha,
                            Kaleo

                            1. re: kaleokahu
                              b
                              blastingcap RE: kaleokahu Aug 13, 2013 04:27 PM

                              hot flows to cold and pan is hotter than surface, so the above reasoning re surface area and spiders is fatally flawed. furthermore check out the gas vs induction threas over at cheftalk i linked to above where people with actual, extensive experience with both gas and induc have shared their experiences rather than speculate. i would be happy to elaborate on the physics including other things that go on with cooling pans, but not at this site, due to the silent mod-deletion of posts that goes on here and due to how far offtopic this has strayed.

                              1. re: blastingcap
                                kaleokahu RE: blastingcap Aug 13, 2013 06:08 PM

                                Hi, blastingcap:

                                Let's try it this way. According to laboratory tests run by Demeyere, if you boil a liter of water on induction, the pan temp stays relatively low, about 230F. But even after you remove the pan, it *still* takes a full ten minutes for the Ceran to cool to a safe 140F.

                                In the same test on gas, while the pan's base hit 840F, it only took 15 minutes for the grate to drop the 700 degrees back to a safe 140F after the flame was put out. This means that the *rate* at which a low cross-section spider loses its residual heat (47F/min) is far greater than the Ceran's rate (9F/min). This is totally in keeping with the high specific heat of glass.

                                Mind you this test was done with *water*. If the test had been using a liter of *oil* at 395F, or had been searing steaks at 650F, the Ceran would have been heated to near those temperatures, i.e., started a lot closer to the spider's. Turn off the induction hob at those temps, and the Ceran is *still* near that temperature, and for a looooong time, taking closer to as long to cool as if on halogen or resistive coil, about 35-50 minutes to fall to 140F. It doesn't go away instantly.

                                Another way to think of it is that, after the induction hob is switched off, the pan will be heated to some degree via *conduction* from the glass. AND the pan bottom will be insulated by the hot glass, whereas the same pan on a spider will have free air circulation all around.

                                1. re: kaleokahu
                                  b
                                  blastingcap RE: kaleokahu Aug 13, 2013 07:39 PM

                                  Aloha,

                                  Interestingly enough, your posts have

                                  1) no citations

                                  2) contradict real life experience http://www.cheftalk.com/t/29609/induc... and by anyone who cares to test this at home... turn off an induction cooker and boil stops almost immediately. Gas takes a bit longer.

                                  3) contradict the second law of thermodynamics. You wrote:

                                  "The Ceran surface holds heat well after an induction hob is "off". It makes no difference that the *power* is off, or that the heat originated in the pan; the hot glass still imparts heat to the pan."

                                  and

                                  "Another way to think of it is that, after the induction hob is switched off, the pan will be heated to some degree via *conduction* from the glass."

                                  Unless you believe in pans that defy the second law of thermodynamics (in which case if you have created such a pan, go claim your Nobel Prize now), what you wrote is factually wrong. The hotter pan heats the glass/ceramic, not the other way around. And glass/ceramic as an insulator takes quite a while to get anywhere near the same temperature as the bottom of the pan in the first place. A quick sear isn't going to get anywhere near 650F for instance. (Your rationale is inconsistent, treating glass/ceramic first as a good thermal conductor when you are trying to argue it heats up quickly and then arguing it insulates the pan during cooling. You can't have it both ways.

                                  )

                                  As for metal grates, a metal grate will of course cool down faster, but the point is that grates get very hot during cooking and impart heat to the pan briefly even after gas is shut off. This doesn't go on for that long, and nobody is saying it does.

                                  When people talk about fast response in the cooking context, they are talking about seconds' worth of time (like saving a delicate candy or sauce by turning down heat), not minutes or hours. Depending on how a kitchen is set up, ventilation, composition of the cooktop and grates, etc. it is possible that over long enough timeframes gas will catch up and surpass induction in reaching room temperature, but that is irrelevant when discussing thermal responsiveness as most people use the term in the cooking context.

                                  Specific heat is not the reason why metal cools down faster than glass/ceramic, by the way.

                                  In any case this is academic because one can simply lift the pan and put it somewhere else, something cooks including myself have done for years. Thousands of years.

                                  I've wasted enough breath debunking multiple false statements here as it is, so no thanks. You know what they say about arguing on the internet. And even if I did want to argue on the internet, I'd rather do it with actual chefs who know what they are talking about, like http://www.cheftalk.com/t/29609/induc...

                                  Please respect the OP by sticking to the OP's topic instead of furthering this thread derail. I know you didn't start it, and neither did I, but we can both stop derailing the thread more than it has been.

                                  Have a nice day.

                                  1. re: blastingcap
                                    c oliver RE: blastingcap Aug 13, 2013 09:22 PM

                                    *I* started it with this benign post:

                                    http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/9129...

                                    OP has indicated that they have zero interest in induction. Enough said.

                                    1. re: c oliver
                                      b
                                      blastingcap RE: c oliver Aug 13, 2013 09:27 PM

                                      Yes I know your post was innocuous/benign. It's unfortunate what happened after that. It's clear from reading this thread what happened and why. I have formal training in physics, some other people do not, and it's painfully obvious, like when they do not understand why metal grates cool faster over minute/hour times (three other factors matter much more than specific heat) and why it's impossible at the macro (non-quantum) scale to have a cooler body transfer heat INTO a hotter body. I can't say anything more publicly, for reasons we both know. I won't comment further except to say that I agree with your posts 100%. :)

                                    2. re: blastingcap
                                      kaleokahu RE: blastingcap Aug 13, 2013 09:39 PM

                                      Hi, blastingcap:

                                      The thread you persist in linking to is not very erudite, induction-positive or even chef-focused (of 30 posts, there are only 5 posters who claim to be "chefs", one of whom says CI distributes heat evenly, and another absurdly claiming there were "virtually no gas burners to be found anywhere in commercial kitchens" in Europe in 1995!). Frankly, CH is a better repository of knowledge on these subjects. CT is a little thin, I think.

                                      The Demeyere tests are widely known, but you can find them here: http://www.demeyere.be/media/demeyere...

                                      Specific heat is indeed the reason some materials hang onto heat energy longer than others, and hence have it to give up. Glass happens to have a specific heat early twice that of cast iron, so it is no surprise that glasstops of whatever modality take awhile to cool, even starting at low temperatures. Even my 1910 wood cookstove can't hold as much heat by weight. If it weren't for the cooling fans necessary to save induction appliances' electronics, it would be even worse.

                                      If you understood the laws of thermodymamics, you would know that what I've said is completely consistent with them.

                                      Yes, we're now coming full-circle, since I originally espoused simply taking the pan off the heat if you want downward responsiveness--a better solution than leaving a pan on any hob, including induction.

                                      Aloha,
                                      Kaleo

                                    3. re: kaleokahu
                                      JayL RE: kaleokahu Aug 14, 2013 09:15 AM

                                      "Let's try it this way. According to laboratory tests run by Demeyere, if you boil a liter of water on induction, the pan temp stays relatively low, about 230F. But even after you remove the pan, it *still* takes a full ten minutes for the Ceran to cool to a safe 140F."

                                      Ok...I took the challenge and actually DID try it that way. LoL

                                      I just put one (1) liter of water in a small stock pot and brought it to a boil on my GE induction cooktop. Here are the details:

                                      It took 2.5 minutes for the boil to happen.

                                      I immediately removed the pan and placed my bare hand on the hob. I could hold it directly on the Ceran for two seconds before I had to pull it off due to heat.

                                      I allowed the glass to cool for three minutes and again placed my bare hand directly on the Ceran, center of the hob. Ten seconds later I removed my hand simply because it was not hot enough to force me to pull my hand away.

                                      I have no idea about the test you are referring to...and I don't really care.

                                      All I can say...for absolutely sure...is that I can boil a liter of water in under 3 minutes, I can touch the hob after the boil without burning myself, and the hob has cooled enough for unlimited touching within 3 minutes of boiling water.

                                      There's your test.

                                      1. re: JayL
                                        kaleokahu RE: JayL Aug 14, 2013 10:54 AM

                                        Hi, Jay:

                                        It wasn't my test, it was Demeyere's. It was linked upthread.

                                        MY challenge to blastingcap was to deep fry and try the palm on the burner. But if you like water, see if you can hold your hand there after boiling some good dry pasta for 15 minutes.

                                        It may be that Demeyere let the water boil for long enough for the glass to get more heat from the pan, i.e., a more realistic cooking situation. As I mentioned before, water is a poor medium for such a test. Newspaper will ultimately char on the glass, and the kind of heat that does *that* is gonna burn you.

                                        I'm sure you've seen the fried egg trick with half a pan; it sells a lot of stoves. I'd like to see the same thing with frying a dozen eggs one after the other--ultimately there's gonna be some heat in the glass and the whole egg will be cooking.

                                        Aloha,
                                        Kaleo

                                        1. re: kaleokahu
                                          JayL RE: kaleokahu Aug 14, 2013 05:40 PM

                                          Of course, heat transfers from one surface to another...that is apparent with every cooking apparatus (save for an open campfire).

                                          I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish with "the obvious".

                                          I did the Demeyere test and shared my results. That's all I can add.

                                          1. re: JayL
                                            kaleokahu RE: JayL Aug 14, 2013 07:28 PM

                                            Hi, Jay:

                                            Thanks for trying to duplicate Demeyere's test. I'm not surprised that, in a speed boil test, the Ceran stays pretty cool. Unfortunately, Demeyere did not state how long it took to get its Ceran top to 230F.

                                            Where you came in was me answering why "off" on induction is not truly off, just as it's not with gas. It was obvious to me, too, but apparently not to everyone.

                                            Aloha,
                                            Kaleo

                                            1. re: kaleokahu
                                              c oliver RE: kaleokahu Aug 14, 2013 08:14 PM

                                              Actually it's "I answering" but don't worry about that. I think it's "apparent" to most of us.

                                              1. re: c oliver
                                                kaleokahu RE: c oliver Aug 14, 2013 08:20 PM

                                                Great. Especially good to have you and Jay in agreement.

                                      2. re: kaleokahu
                                        s
                                        sueatmo RE: kaleokahu Aug 30, 2013 11:07 AM

                                        I think the advantage of rapid cool down is in comparison to glass radiant heat cook tops. I think haggling between gas and induction users is moot. The methods give similar results. Both cool down faster than regular electric cook tops.

                                        Dissatisfaction with induction seems to be with how the cook top is designed, more than with how it performs.

                                        Most all of us would like to have a gas cook top or stove, especially if it was one of the nicer ones you see on display in appliance stores. But not all of us can or are willing to have them. Induction works well for those who can't have or don't want gas.

                                        Not sure why it is so important for one or the other cooking methods to be best. The both work well.

                                        1. re: sueatmo
                                          c oliver RE: sueatmo Aug 30, 2013 11:17 AM

                                          Can't remember if I said it here or elsewhere. I recently told a visitor that if someone offered me the highest end gas cooktop plus a thousand dollars, I wouldn't give up my induction. I could have had gas and have had it. Would never go back.

                                          1. re: sueatmo
                                            kaleokahu RE: sueatmo Aug 30, 2013 12:01 PM

                                            Hi, Sue: "I think the advantage of rapid cool down is in comparison to glass radiant heat cook tops."

                                            Yep, radiants are terrible in this regard, and induction is good. 100% agree.

                                            "Dissatisfaction with induction seems to be with how the cook top is designed, more than with how it performs."

                                            Well, I *kinda* agree. Because so many people switching from radiant or coil love their new-found responsiveness when they get induction, that love tends to predominate. If they don't have grand mal issues with their new induction, they're mostly very happy campers; some become absolute zealots, as we know.

                                            *However*, IMO there is a substantial crossover twixt design and performance. If the design includes double-ring or pixelated induction coils, performance is better. Likewise, the performance is better if the detection circuitry and controls are intuitive.

                                            There's also the aspect of what you put on *top* of the appliance. I'm sure I come across as elitist in saying this (again), but if you disqualify the very best cookware simply by virtue of having chosen induction, I think that's a downtick in performance, all other things being equal. Really good compatible clad on a really good induction appliance equates with really good performance, no matter how you slice it. But is it the best or perfect? Others may differ, but I don't think so.

                                            I agree 100% that induction can be a good choice for some, especially if they can't (or won't) have a good gas appliance, must have clad, a smooth top, etc.

                                            In the final analysis, it's not all that important to crown a "best". But that's what a lot of posters here ask about, and the zealots tend to answer. Yes, both work well.

                                            Aloha,
                                            Kaleo

                                  2. h
                                    hawkeyeui93 RE: Suechee Aug 13, 2013 07:04 AM

                                    Sue: I loved the abilities of Wolf and Thermador products the last time I shopped for a kitchen remodel, but due to my locale [North Central Iowa in a town of 50K] and concerns about service if something went wrong, I went ahead and purchased a gas cooktop and wall ovens from Bosch. So far, so good. I wish you luck in your journey and hope you get the kitchen you have always wanted!

                                    1 Reply
                                    1. re: hawkeyeui93
                                      c oliver RE: hawkeyeui93 Aug 13, 2013 08:11 AM

                                      Good point about service. A neighbor has a Dacor range and a Subzero fridge, both of which needed repairs requiring parts. It took weeks. In the case of the fridge, they actually bought a second fridge to keep in the garage. We're about 50 miles from Reno so were surprised that it was such an issue. She wound up wanting to throw those appliances off her second story deck...but wasn't strong enough :)

                                    2. wekick RE: Suechee Aug 13, 2013 01:06 PM

                                      I have cooked on a multitude of ranges gas, electric coil, smooth top, open, sealed, woodfire, you name it. We remodeled about 5-6 years ago with the idea of doing a kitchen to cook in. We have a 36 inch range and wall oven. If I had it to do over I would get a rangetop with two separate wall ovens. You can pick the type of burners you like and get the ovens you like, which can be alike or different. some like a speed oven or steam oven. If one of the ovens goes down, you still have one. If something has to be replaced, you just have to replace that component. The ovens can be placed at an optimal height if you have room.

                                      I like the prostyle range top that is deeper because you can fit bigger pans which we use quite a bit. I have island trim for that reason. If you do decide to get a range I would choose the oven considering how you will use it. Some people are happy with gas and other want an oven that has all the bells and whistles.
                                      Overall though my experience with brands is as follows.
                                      In 2007,the first range and wall oven were the Dacor DF range and the $4000 wall oven. The blue porcelain flaked off in sheets on both and the computer boards to control the heat never worked with multiple repairs over 7 mos BUT they did eventually buy them back.
                                      I was in paralysis about what to buy but chose a Wolf DF and Electrolux regular oven for $2000. I also considered the BS range because there were so many that raved how wonderful it was. We drove 250 miles to look at one but my husband did not like the fit and finish and there were quite a few complaints about service and hot doors. We had no dealers in our area either. At the time a gas oven would have been ok because the previous oven never worked right so I didn't realize how great a high end electric oven can be. I felt like I was settling a little buying the Wolf but I ended up loving it. It has plenty of heat on the high end but I got downright spoiled by the control of heat especially at the low end. The oven was a revelation. We have had many parties where it was filled and everything baked evenly. The Electrolux has also been a great oven.
                                      I can't recommend either though. Unfortunately both of these ovens have had issues with the blue porcelain. The Elux when new was shedding it but they quickly replaced it. supposedly they had fixed the problem. Four years later the enamel started coming off again and it was "too bad" and they would not even talk to me about whether I could fix it or not without paying a technician to come out and talk to them. Luckily it was under extended warranty. The liner was replaced so we will see. My Wolf DF has the same issue. They have replaced appliances with this issue sometimes multiple times, even those 4+ years old free or with a small fee. The new ones seem to not last as long as the old ones. They no longer do this and want me to pay to have it fixed. Wolf will supply the part and $350 toward labor that was quoted to start at $800. It can go up "depending on what they find".or how adept the repairmen are at doing what has been called a difficult repair. They will only guarantee it a year and with ongoing problems we will now look to replace it. Not the decades of service advertised on their website.
                                      The reliability is very low of the ones we have had.

                                      I would take a look at gardenweb appliance forum. there is even more discussion over there about appliances.

                                      1. s
                                        Suechee RE: Suechee Aug 13, 2013 04:37 PM

                                        see why I am overwhelmed? :)

                                        We had decided to go with gas cooktop, which, after our old electric cooktop, will be a dream. (I know there are lots of induction fans out there, but not for us at this time.) We had originally thought of a cooktop located on an island, and then 2 separate wall ovens (for the reason noted that if one breaks, you still have a back-up). However, appliance salesman was questioning having a cooktop on an island - more difficult to vent. So then we wondered about a range instead, with one wall oven. We are completely starting from scratch as to design, so options are all open just now.

                                        Overall cost is a factor, as we are replacing everything and putting an addition on to increase the size of the existing small kitchen. Because we use the kitchen so much for cooking and baking, we want appliances that will stand up. To economize a bit, we thought we would spend a bit more on a range, and then get a more basic wall oven which would not be used every day. But our minds change hourly on all of this... What to do????

                                        (Should have mentioned we live in Canada.)

                                        4 Replies
                                        1. re: Suechee
                                          h
                                          hawkeyeui93 RE: Suechee Aug 13, 2013 04:47 PM

                                          I don't see why you cannot locate a cooktop on a counter [and either run the venting under a cabinet or overhead with a hood vent] and still have two wall ovens. It sounds like you cook and bake so much that it might be move convenient not to have to bend down to use a range oven when you need a second oven, especially since it sounds like you will be in this house for the long haul. I have had really good luck with my Bosch gas cooktop, wall oven, and dishwasher. The only thing that has been replaced was on the dishwasher [the CPU Board] and it was covered.

                                          1. re: hawkeyeui93
                                            s
                                            sueatmo RE: hawkeyeui93 Aug 30, 2013 11:11 AM

                                            What hawkeye said. Venting is a problem? Why? If you are built on a crawl space, you can even vent through the floor. It might be more costly to do this, yes. Venting on an outside wall would probably be easiest, and therefore possibly the cheapest way. And I too am a fan of Bosch.

                                            1. re: sueatmo
                                              c oliver RE: sueatmo Aug 30, 2013 11:22 AM

                                              If on a slab and an island, you can still vent through the ceiling. Photo from Ikea.

                                               
                                          2. re: Suechee
                                            DeeAgeaux RE: Suechee Aug 13, 2013 05:33 PM

                                            Just like Wekick had a revelation going from a standard oven to a really good oven cooks will also have a revelation going from a standard 15k btu sealed burner to a true 22k-23k btu open burner.

                                            But if you have never cooked with one, especially on a daily basis, you just don't know.

                                            If you have never baked in a really good oven you may think a standard oven is great too. You don't know what you don't know.

                                            If you can go to Wolf and Bluestar cooking demonstrations. Wolf usually does not have gas cooktops/rangetops at there demonstrations only induction. Why? Because their gas offerings are not very good. If you can find a live Culinarian go and check it out and ask store owner if you can cook something in the store.

                                          3. Candy RE: Suechee Aug 15, 2013 10:45 AM

                                            I am with COliver. I recently purchased a single burner induction unit. I did this because I am planning on induction for my next home and wanted to begin to get a feel for it. They are faster, cleaner, more energy efficient and respond to heat changes rapidly. They are also safer than electric or gas. Fires are unlikely to happen.They are in widespread use in Europe, China, Australia. The technology has been around since the 40's but it never caught on here. Now it is beginning to and some builders are putting them in new homes.

                                            The only draw back is your pans have to be magnetic on the bottom. That is really not that bad because you can purchase an interface disc for about $45.00 and slowly replace non-magnetic pans for induction compatible pans.

                                            For ovens, 2 electric. Specifically the new Kitchen Aid double, full sized with steam injection and convection and some other nifty features. We have 4 in the demo kitchen.

                                            1. rmarisco RE: Suechee Aug 15, 2013 11:46 AM

                                              ok this is absolutely a different tack than the rest of the world is taking.. but i would ask my repair man which he would recommend. I trust my guy completely: we just went through a very expensive repair on a refrigerator, and he told me to NOT buy 2 very popular brands (should i choose to replace) because he was repairing them so often. I also had to repair a bosch washing machine. I brought this legacy with us from San Francisco, where bosch is easy to get fixed... my repair guy was happy to repair it. but, when I called the local dealer (recommended by bosch customer service), they had little-to-no knowledge of the product since they sold so few. I think it makes sense to find out what you can get serviced easily in your area when choosing appliances.

                                              1 Reply
                                              1. re: rmarisco
                                                kaleokahu RE: rmarisco Aug 15, 2013 02:25 PM

                                                Great advice, rmarisco!

                                              2. s
                                                Suechee RE: Suechee Aug 15, 2013 02:41 PM

                                                Wow - it was not my intention to start you all down this road, but am glad that you had an opportunity to have the debate, even though it was not relevant to my original issue.

                                                In the meantime, I have nixed the range, and instead decided upon a cooktop (GAS!!!) with either two wall ovens, or a double wall oven. Still overwhelmed by the oven choice, but will leave it at that for this posting.....

                                                2 Replies
                                                1. re: Suechee
                                                  k
                                                  KungPaoDumplings RE: Suechee Aug 15, 2013 02:49 PM

                                                  I'm very happy to hear your kitchen choices are slowly making their way towards being decided.

                                                  I hope the conversation on this thread can continue to go forward and help you.

                                                  1. re: KungPaoDumplings
                                                    c oliver RE: KungPaoDumplings Aug 15, 2013 03:11 PM

                                                    And there are SCORES of other threads that discuss this also. Kitchen designs are a fave topic here.

                                                2. s
                                                  Suechee RE: Suechee Aug 15, 2013 02:53 PM

                                                  Okay, here is where I am now...

                                                  As background, we have had a Kenmore fridge, and Kenmore washer/dryer that have not had any issues in 20 years, and a Kitchenaid electric range that has given us nothing but problems. We are now at the point where we are planning a new kitchen from scratch, and have about a $20K (Can) budget for appliances.

                                                  We are thinking of:

                                                  36” Wolf or Thermador gas cooktop (is one or the other preferable -- more reliable, better at all different heat levels, etc?)

                                                  30” Whirlpool or Electrolux all fridge and all freezer columns - any preference?

                                                  Miele dishwasher (Futura)

                                                  What is causing the most uncertainty is the wall ovens. We would like to get 2 separate 30” wall ovens (in case one breaks, I assume two separate ovens are better than a double?). We want reliability, and even baking. Is it advisable to go “higher end” like Miele, Wolf, Thermador for ovens, which puts us over budget, or would Whirlpool, Bosch, etc. be just as suitable? (re-sale is not an issue for us, as we are in the house for the long-term.)

                                                  1 Reply
                                                  1. re: Suechee
                                                    h
                                                    hawkeyeui93 RE: Suechee Aug 16, 2013 05:32 AM

                                                    You might want to look at the Bosch ovens [and I think they will be more than suitable as you suggest]. I assume that if you can get a Miele and Wolf serviced in your community, then Bosch is not as exotic. I have had good luck with our Bosch stovetop, wall ovens, dishwasher, and washer/dryer. One repair in a decade with zero on the wall ovens.

                                                  2. beetlebug RE: Suechee Aug 16, 2013 04:22 AM

                                                    I have a similar issue. I can only buy a range top since my kitchen is small and there is no where to put a separate wall oven. I will be going with gas.

                                                    My question is the oven. I've seen ovens that have two doors (making it a double oven within a single range). Does anyone have any comments about pros or cons? I like the idea but my concern is about cookie baking. Can I bake two trays in the top oven or does it cause weird browning? I'm not worried about bending two low for the lower oven.

                                                    Thanks.

                                                    1. s
                                                      Suechee RE: Suechee Aug 16, 2013 06:22 AM

                                                      thank you for this, hawkeye

                                                      2 Replies
                                                      1. re: Suechee
                                                        h
                                                        hawkeyeui93 RE: Suechee Aug 16, 2013 06:53 AM

                                                        Hope it helps. Good luck with the remodel and do let us know how your appliances turn out and your final selections.

                                                        P.S. I also had really good luck with a JennAir Convection Wall Oven in my previous house, but this was over a decade ago and before JennAir changed ownership from Maytag to Whirlpool.

                                                        1. re: hawkeyeui93
                                                          c oliver RE: hawkeyeui93 Aug 16, 2013 07:49 AM

                                                          I have a very large Samsung convection/MW in lieu of a second oven. Having a regular second oven would have necessitated completely reconfiguring the kitchen. I don't need it very often as an 'oven-oven' so it's been perfect for us.

                                                      2. s
                                                        Suechee RE: Suechee Aug 29, 2013 06:33 AM

                                                        Thought I would post "the end result":
                                                        Wolf 6 burner gas cooktop (yes, gas!)
                                                        GE Monogram double wall oven
                                                        Electrolux 32" full fridge, and 32" full freezer
                                                        Miele Futura dishwasher
                                                        Sirius 48" vent

                                                        SO excited - or will be, once we get through the horror of living through the building of an addition to the house, of course....

                                                        5 Replies
                                                        1. re: Suechee
                                                          h
                                                          hawkeyeui93 RE: Suechee Aug 29, 2013 06:51 AM

                                                          Let us know in a year or so how your choices hold up. Thanks for sharing them with us.

                                                          1. re: Suechee
                                                            s
                                                            sueatmo RE: Suechee Aug 30, 2013 11:13 AM

                                                            Yes let us know how they perform. I think you will love your new kitchen.

                                                            1. re: Suechee
                                                              w
                                                              walker RE: Suechee Jan 7, 2014 10:50 AM

                                                              I love my Miele dishwasher .. so quiet. But, I did not know until I'd already ordered it that debris has to be washed off first. I really like the top flat rack for utensils.

                                                              I still don't know what gas oven to buy; reviews on the Bosch turn me off. I need 30" (or should I give up 6" of counter space and go with 36"?

                                                              1. re: walker
                                                                JayL RE: walker Jan 7, 2014 01:10 PM

                                                                I don't want any part of a dishwasher that I have to hand wash the dishes before loading the machine.

                                                                In my opinion if a dishwasher can't handle plates straight from the dinner table, it's junk and a waste of money.

                                                                1. re: JayL
                                                                  c oliver RE: JayL Jan 7, 2014 01:16 PM

                                                                  I agree. Mine has a food grinder down in the guts.

                                                                  We did a house exchange over Christmas that had a rack in top of the DW for flatware. I though it was one of the silliest thing I'd ever seen. I certainly didn't want to spend my time putting every piece in just so.

                                                            2. s
                                                              smilingal RE: Suechee Dec 9, 2013 09:03 AM

                                                              Wondering how you are enjoying your Wolf gas cooktop?
                                                              I have a BS cooktop with a double wall oven. I am soooo disappointed with the difficulty in cleaning the cooktop - horrible and extremely difficult!

                                                              1 Reply
                                                              1. re: smilingal
                                                                m
                                                                mdaig RE: smilingal Jan 6, 2014 09:05 PM

                                                                Hi Smillingal,

                                                                Are you referring to Bluestar? Why is it so difficult to clean?
                                                                How is it to use? Anybody else has any comments to make on the Bluestar. I am considering the 36 inch 5 burner cooktop. Looking at Gaggeneau as well. I have Miele gas 5 burner cooktop beautiful but hard to maintain.

                                                              2. s
                                                                Suechee RE: Suechee Dec 9, 2013 01:48 PM

                                                                Sad to say, we are still waiting for the new appliances. It is taking longer to get our planning approvals and to choose a contractor to do our kitchen addition. It is very difficult knowing what we have ordered, and not being able to use it! Will post an update once everything is installed.

                                                                1. ninrn RE: Suechee Jan 7, 2014 12:07 AM

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