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So much for tip shaming, now we've moved on to messy kid shaming

Firegoat Aug 8, 2013 04:05 AM

At least the restaurant didn't identify the parents, they did that themselves.


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  1. r
    rockycat RE: Firegoat Aug 8, 2013 04:46 AM

    Wow. Just wow. There's an owner who really does not need to be in the hospitality business.

    1. k
      Kontxesi RE: Firegoat Aug 8, 2013 04:51 AM

      Yeah... no. They are 3 and 1, for God's sake. Kids make messes sometimes.

      Now, when adults make messes like that? That's another story. (My family went to a restaurant I frequent for my birthday. We go there often enough that the staff knows what we're going to order. My step-dad and step-brother made the most God-awful mess.... I was on my hands and knees picking rice and crumbs off the carpet after they went outside.)

      1. jes7o RE: Firegoat Aug 8, 2013 05:06 AM

        Everyone in this story is just wrong. The parent should work with her kids on not eating like savages. IF they make a mess, help pick it up for crying out loud! No restaurant is responsible for picking up after my child when eating, especially if the mess is at all excessive. My daughter is almost three and has NEVER made a mess like that in public. And when she does, I pick it up. The restaurant wins no points by posting the picture of the mess. I get that it's annoying, but seriously not a good business practice! UGH all around....

        4 Replies
        1. re: jes7o
          donovt RE: jes7o Aug 8, 2013 07:31 AM

          Am I seeing a different picture than you? It really doesn't look that bad to me.

          1. re: donovt
            jes7o RE: donovt Aug 8, 2013 08:08 AM

            There is no way I would leave that for someone else to clean up. It's not the mother of all messes....but still...I would take the time to pick up the pieces. I probably wouldn't have chosen a scone either, as they are notoriously crummy and you're just asking for a mess...but to each their own.

            1. re: jes7o
              wincountrygirl RE: jes7o Aug 8, 2013 01:40 PM

              I agree. Not the worst mess but it was a mess. The owner may have overreacted but maybe this was the icing on the cake for her. I've been in restaurants where the parents allow their kids to do that - and a lot worse. After they leave the wait staff comes over and has to clean up the mess. They never say anything. And there are many times things should be said and not necessarily about the mess the kids leave.

          2. re: jes7o
            dmjordan RE: jes7o Aug 8, 2013 01:58 PM

            I'm usually in the "kids are animals in restaurants" camp, but from what I understand they were in the middle of eating when the manager came over. So maybe the mother would have cleaned up the mess but never had the opportunity. I'm with the mom on this one.

          3. MGZ RE: Firegoat Aug 8, 2013 05:59 AM

            Two things I've come to know for certain about every parent. (1) They f*ck up their kids in some way, no matter how hard they try not to do so. And (2) They all think that their kids are better behaved in public than they really are. These ladies managed to prove both simultaneously.

            Granted, the Facebook bullshit* was a spiteful move, but it's not like she put up pictures of the Mommies or their names.

            *Sorry if that's redundant.

            1. juliejulez RE: Firegoat Aug 8, 2013 07:20 AM

              Wow. The "mess" doesn't even look that bad. Many adults can't even eat scones without leaving crumbs. But, there's nothing wrong with the owner being annoyed, but she approached it all wrong. I agree with rockycat that maybe the owner is in the wrong business for both approaching the customer and telling them not to come back with their kids, and for posting it on facebook. I also think if you own a coffee shop, especially in an area where families live (no idea if that's the case here), then you need to be ready for kids as customers.

              I will say, we were eating at a Thai restaurant, and I was pretty shocked at the mess a family left, they had a baby in a high chair and a toddler. There was rice EVERYWHERE, all over the table and the surrounding floor. I don't have kids, but if that was me, I'd at least try to tidy up the table before leaving.

              10 Replies
              1. re: juliejulez
                Savour RE: juliejulez Aug 8, 2013 10:47 AM

                Having small children (It's always the 1 year old) who do make messes (it's not a control thing, it's a kid thing, and no, we don't take him out often, but we do occasionally bring him along to a coffee shop or other casual restaurant, and if he's eating he's happier) sometimes you leave because it's time to leave before the kids start getting unpleasant. When our kids make messes, if we can't clean it up, we do try to leave a big tip to take some of the sting off.

                FWIW, our six year old does not make messes in restaurants anymore. At least, not on purpose. We all occasionally spill a glass of water.

                1. re: juliejulez
                  foiegras RE: juliejulez Aug 8, 2013 01:46 PM

                  Don't families live everywhere?

                  I'll never forget taking my mother (who I recall had children herself) to an old-fashioned soda fountain. There were other people there with their kids, who were behaving quite normally, nothing obnoxious. And she said audibly, "Why would people bring their children here?!" I replied it was a neighborhood place (in fact the neighborhood is mentioned in the name of the business), and she said, "What neighborhood is around here??"

                  Some people just don't like kids. Perhaps this coffee shop owner can cater to them.

                  1. re: foiegras
                    pedalfaster RE: foiegras Aug 8, 2013 01:59 PM

                    "I'll never forget taking my mother (who I recall had children herself)..."


                    1. re: foiegras
                      juliejulez RE: foiegras Aug 8, 2013 04:41 PM

                      Yes but some areas have more than others. For example, I live in an outer suburb NE of Denver. I would say 80% of our neighbors have children. If we lived downtown, the ratio would probably go down to below 50%. It's pretty much a given that if we go eat anywhere near our house, there will be a decent amount of families eating there. Not so much when we go out downtown.

                      According to the 2010 census, nearly 30% of the 28,069 residents of Lake Stevens, WA (where this happened), were under the age of 18. That's a pretty decent percentage so I think it's safe to assume that most business should be accustomed to people bringing their children in.

                      1. re: juliejulez
                        jlhinwa RE: juliejulez Aug 12, 2013 08:12 PM

                        Yes, Lake Stevens is a suburb of Seattle...definitely an area for people to raise kids rather than an urban type of feel or population.

                        I find it interesting that the main page of the restaurant's own website references their proximity to the local high school, library, and boys' and girls' club. Hard to imagine that they could expect to have a child-free clientele.

                        1. re: jlhinwa
                          The Dairy Queen RE: jlhinwa Aug 13, 2013 12:16 AM

                          You know, I just also want to point out that this place isn't really a "restaurant." It's a cafe, er, caffe, (or at least they call themselves one), which sets the expectation that this is a very casual kind of place. In Minnesota, anyway, most cafes (not sure about caffes, though!) go out of their way to solicit the "mommy" crowd's business, often providing childrens books and toys. In fact we have two cafes that have room devoted to a children's play area.

                          They have no menu on their website, but they mention coffee, pastries and panini. They do not do anything to lead a potential customer to believe that this would be the kind of place where children, even the messy ones, would not be welcome.


                          1. re: The Dairy Queen
                            DeppityDawg RE: The Dairy Queen Aug 13, 2013 07:56 AM

                            There's nothing specifically indicating that small children are welcome, either. If I were accompanying small children in public, I would be looking for the sort of explicit signals you describe (kid's menu, toys, play area), and not simply relying on my expectations of how a café ought to operate. Walking into this café and seeing no facilities specifically catering to the mommy crowd, I would understand that my kids and I are at best only tolerated here, and depending on how my kids were acting that day (or in general), I would probably think, not the best choice for us. If for some reason I decided to stay anyway, I would be especially conscious of the fact that a neutral reaction can all too easily turn into a hostile reaction, depending on my kids' behavior and my (in)ability to deal with it effectively.

                            1. re: DeppityDawg
                              The Dairy Queen RE: DeppityDawg Aug 13, 2013 09:17 AM

                              There's nothing specifically on the website indicating that, except they make a point to put their proximity to the "family center" on the map on their website and talk in their blog about participating in fundraising for some family-oriented event, which could lead one to believe they are trying to appeal to families.

                              Of course, I haven't been to the cafe, but I suppose if I got there and it was all fine china and white tablecloths, I might turn around and leave, thinking that perhaps I've misunderstood the nature of the establishment, that this isn't really a casual caf(f)e.

                              To be honest, I'm not going to eat anywhere where a member of my party is "at best only tolerated" when it ought to otherwise be acceptable for that person to eat there. I'm not talking about bringing my toddler to The French Laundry, of course, that would be ridiculous. But, a cafe that serves pastries and sandwiches is very typically the kind of environment where a toddler should be welcome, even if it doesn't specifically don't market themselves to children.

                              Of course, badly behaved customers (drunkards, loudmouths, etc.) OF ANY AGE are a different story.

                              Lastly, I'm not going to restrict myself to eating to only establishments that serve chicken nuggets and pizza for the next 5 years. Sometimes, I might just want panini and I'm gong to bring my child with me because he's a human being and eats food, too. There's no reason for us all to live in some sanitized version of the world where there are no children.


                              1. re: The Dairy Queen
                                DeppityDawg RE: The Dairy Queen Aug 13, 2013 11:59 AM

                                No one is telling you to restrict yourself to chicken nuggets and pizza for 5 years, much less denying the humanity of your child and seeking to cleanse society of his presence. I don't know where these ideas came from. But it is a fact that small children _are_ a restriction, and any establishment that isn't obviously child-friendly may turn out to be child-unfriendly, or specifically unfriendly to loud and messy children. In fact I would think that most establishments fall into this category. Those places are not necessarily off-limits to parents with small children, but they are situations where parents have to be especially vigilant of their children's behavior and prepared to take immediate action in case of noise/mess.

                                As you say, we don't know the café in this story, or the people involved, and we didn't witness the events. I doubt that the mother was completely in the right, and the café owner completely in the wrong, or vice versa. Their stories are so divergent that I have to suspect that neither one is completely true. But I can say that the mother took a risk by choosing to bring her children to this café, and the owner took a risk by accepting to serve them. It turned out badly for both of them, but also for all the other customers, who had this risk forced upon them.

                                1. re: DeppityDawg
                                  The Dairy Queen RE: DeppityDawg Aug 13, 2013 12:04 PM

                                  Your first sentence makes me laugh. :) But I agree with everything you've said. Someone upthread (downthread? I have no idea where I am in this thread) said both parties over-reacted and I agree with that; your second point kind of reinforces that.

                                  The truth is, restaurants (even cafes) are in the hospitality business and customers are in the paying to be a guest business. The restaurant (and other patrons) take the risk of having to deal with bad customers and customers take the risk of being served bad food. But, it is part of the expectation that the restaurants try to be the best hosts they can and customers be the best guests they can. At least, that's my expectation.

                                  If you aren't willing to assume those risks and/or do your best to meet those expectations, I wish you'd get out of the hosting/guesting business and find another job/eat at home.


                  2. Veggo RE: Firegoat Aug 8, 2013 07:48 AM

                    I saw the segment this morning. It reminded me that 2 weeks ago I was eating lunch at an Indian buffet restaurant with a friend, and at a nearby booth was a young couple with an infant in a baby chair. Every surface within a 5 foot radius of the child was trashed by thrown food, multiples of what was shown on the Today Show segment. And not Cheerios, goopy casserole stuff. I observed the paltry tip the couple left, and I added $2 to it on my way out.

                    1 Reply
                    1. re: Veggo
                      Worldwide Diner RE: Veggo Aug 8, 2013 10:41 AM

                      Had a similar experience at an Indian resturant, although the family doing the trashing weren't Indian and it wasn't a buffet. It's disgusting from my perspective (as a fellow diner) to see food spilled all over the place.

                      I have kids that are 3 and 1. I do my best to get keep the food out of the reach of the 1 year old and I feed her to avoid making a mess. When she throws a fork on the ground, I pick it up. When she takes food out of her mouth, I wipe her hands.

                    2. Coogles RE: Firegoat Aug 8, 2013 09:25 AM

                      Well, that's one way to turn a customer in to an ex-customer.

                      1. trolley RE: Firegoat Aug 8, 2013 09:53 AM

                        everyone stinks in this maybe except for the kids. some children are super annoying in public but they're kids and the adult is responsible for setting their limits in public. too anal for her own good lady needs to stop serving scones and food if she doesn't want it spilled on the ground. she should also ban kids and anyone who will potentially make a mess and see how business goes after that. my niece who is 8 sits under the table and crawls on all 4's in restaurants. it drives me insane and my sister in law pretends nothing is happening. i limit this relationship as i don't want to get angry. I would never allow my 4 yr old to that even at home if we're eating.

                        1. tcamp RE: Firegoat Aug 8, 2013 11:02 AM

                          I've never really understood restaurants with carpeting, especially high traffic, family oriented sorts of places.

                          1. JuniorBalloon RE: Firegoat Aug 8, 2013 01:32 PM

                            Nothing I like better than messy, screaming children at the table next to me.


                            30 Replies
                            1. re: JuniorBalloon
                              Veggo RE: JuniorBalloon Aug 8, 2013 01:37 PM

                              Except when they are tantruming at about 95 decibels in an adjacent seat, with red face, snot, tears, drool, and a panty fully loaded on both sides as a plane re-pressurizes for landing.

                              1. re: Veggo
                                c oliver RE: Veggo Aug 8, 2013 04:42 PM

                                I'll take that any day over loud, obnoxious drunks.

                                1. re: Veggo
                                  sunshine842 RE: Veggo Aug 9, 2013 04:20 AM

                                  that's not their fault...it hurts, and mom and dad obviously haven't clued in on how to avoid that.

                                2. re: JuniorBalloon
                                  c oliver RE: JuniorBalloon Aug 8, 2013 05:01 PM

                                  I think this was just about messy. But honestly I rarely see a child anymore being allowed to scream for more than a bit. If s/he can't quiet down, they're usually removed until they do. We live in a resort area so see lots of families.

                                  1. re: c oliver
                                    wincountrygirl RE: c oliver Aug 8, 2013 06:39 PM

                                    Really? I was just in a restaurant where a family came in whose daughter clearly just had a dance recital. The restaurant had us seated at a small table for two. The family was at a 6 top with 2 kids, including the prima donna and her brother. Little ballerina was circling the table waving her wand - on my husband's head. Parents did nothing. A few minutes later in comes another 6 top - 2 kids again the rest adults and lo and behold - the boy from table one and two are great friends. The two start to "play" in the restaurant - running around, punching each other right next to me. A punch came close to landing on my arm. The waiter moved them. The parent did NOTHING. The restaurant owner did NOTHING. Forget that it was totally inconsiderate, but someone could have been hurt. The parents clearly thought that this was a great night out for them. The owner of the restaurant moved our table and comped a drink but I don't get why parents think that they can allow their kids to run rampant like that.

                                    1. re: wincountrygirl
                                      c oliver RE: wincountrygirl Aug 8, 2013 06:40 PM

                                      So does this happen to you regularly? I just don't see it.

                                      1. re: c oliver
                                        Ruthie789 RE: c oliver Aug 8, 2013 06:57 PM

                                        It can happen, parents are with friends, kids get engaged with other kids, start roaming and the tables became part of the catch me if you can adventure.

                                        1. re: c oliver
                                          wincountrygirl RE: c oliver Aug 9, 2013 03:50 AM

                                          Well then you are lucky. I admit, we usually don't see it to the extreme we did a couple of weeks ago, but parents tolerate a lot more from their kids in restaurants than mine ever did. Circling the table is a big thing - even if it means bumping another diner.Very loud "talking." I was in one restaurant, a very small place, where there was a group of about 20 - 10 adults, 10 kids. The adults took one table and the kids - all ages, were seated at their own table, as luck would have it, right next to us. The parents had a wonderful meal ignoring the unruly table of kids. We did not have that luxury. And management is afraid to say anything for fear of offending or losing customers or whatever.

                                          1. re: wincountrygirl
                                            Ruthie789 RE: wincountrygirl Aug 9, 2013 04:32 AM

                                            Often these large groups run the poor server around and they don't always get tipped well.

                                      2. re: wincountrygirl
                                        Leonardo RE: wincountrygirl Aug 9, 2013 05:59 PM

                                        Restaurants are not playgrounds. They are dangerous places full of sharp, hot, breakable things. You can bet that had their little perfect darling been injured by the parent's crappy parenting, they'd be the first to sue the restaurant!

                                        1. re: Leonardo
                                          wincountrygirl RE: Leonardo Aug 10, 2013 03:54 AM

                                          Exactly! That's another reason I have to say that the restaurant manager/owner sometimes needs to step in and forget about not wanting to "offend" or possibly end up on twitter!! Someone could get seriously hurt.

                                          1. re: Leonardo
                                            Jerseygirl111 RE: Leonardo Aug 13, 2013 11:16 AM

                                            But that's not the situation here, is it? The issue is that the kids were sloppy. Food ended up on the floor. It happens, it's an establishment that serves food and drink. Spills happen, crumbs happen. It's totally expected in such a place.

                                        2. re: c oliver
                                          Withnail42 RE: c oliver Aug 9, 2013 09:38 AM

                                          You're certainly fortunate.

                                          It is by no means a rare occurrence.

                                          Was in a crowded diner once an a woman was there with her child about 3yrs old who every now and then would let out an ear jarring scream. The woman just laughed at it. She told her friend she had no idea why he dose it but she thought it was hilarious. But when a gentleman sitting behind the child asked nicely to for the child to lower the volume. The 'lady' went off on him. Suddenly she was an expert in child physiology and physiology. The her son was merely expressing himself/learning to verbalize and strengthening his vocal cords and neck mussels.

                                          1. re: Withnail42
                                            Firegoat RE: Withnail42 Aug 9, 2013 09:51 AM

                                            Ugh. That would be miserable. I agree with you that it isn't a rare occurrence. Maybe we're just unlucky. I was trying to eat breakfast with a friend in a diner and was sitting in a booth. The kid nextdoor was kicking... kicking.. kicking the back of my seat. Almost impossible to take a sip of coffee without being jarred. After waiting quite a while for the parent to, um, parent, I politely asked them if the child could quit kicking the seat. I was told to mind my own business and this was their booth and they would do whatever they wanted.

                                            1. re: Withnail42
                                              JuniorBalloon RE: Withnail42 Aug 9, 2013 10:26 AM

                                              I would be inclined to test that child's neck muscle strength.


                                          2. re: JuniorBalloon
                                            youareabunny RE: JuniorBalloon Aug 13, 2013 10:13 AM

                                            It's almost as good as being on an 11 hour flight with one.

                                            Damn kid cried 4 times from San Diego to New York. She was crying while we boarded, while we took off and while we were in the air. That was the first cry. There were 3 more to New York which was 5 hours away.

                                            Only reason I tolerated it was the fact the plane was so empty I had 3 seats to myself. That and she was several rows in front of me in the aisle furthest away.

                                            Seriously, there should be a law that if you have a kid screaming or crying and ruining everyone's dining or flying experience that you walk around and pass everyone a $20.

                                            1. re: youareabunny
                                              The Dairy Queen RE: youareabunny Aug 13, 2013 10:16 AM

                                              I have a friend who buys everyone a round of drinks.

                                              Don't laugh, she says it works.


                                              1. re: The Dairy Queen
                                                youareabunny RE: The Dairy Queen Aug 13, 2013 10:17 AM

                                                I would've been happy with that too!

                                                1. re: youareabunny
                                                  The Dairy Queen RE: youareabunny Aug 13, 2013 10:23 AM

                                                  Suddenly EVERYONE is cooing and oohing and ahhing and wanting to hold the baby.


                                                  1. re: The Dairy Queen
                                                    youareabunny RE: The Dairy Queen Aug 13, 2013 10:26 AM

                                                    Does 4 cries amount to 4 drinks? I will be that baby's godmother then.

                                                    Now that I think about it, I got a look at her when we finally landed and she looked to be at least 3 if not 4-5 years old. And there were 3 babies in the aisle next to her (I know because they were in those baby baskets, whatever they are, I don't know) and they didn't cry at all!

                                                    1. re: youareabunny
                                                      The Dairy Queen RE: youareabunny Aug 13, 2013 10:29 AM

                                                      I don 't know what the proper ratio of drinks to crying children is, but I suppose it also depends on the length of the flight and time of day, etc. I'm sure there's a complicated differential equation to be solved.


                                                      1. re: The Dairy Queen
                                                        youareabunny RE: The Dairy Queen Aug 13, 2013 10:48 AM

                                                        For this case, 1-2 drinks per crying session was definitely reasonable.

                                                        Now I finally have a use for all that algebra and algorithms crap I learned 10+ years ago and I don't remember enough of it to even use it. Such is life

                                                2. re: The Dairy Queen
                                                  girloftheworld RE: The Dairy Queen Aug 13, 2013 10:46 AM

                                                  and the poor passenger who cant call his/her AA sponser because the no phone use is double suffering ..in thethird ring of hell

                                                  1. re: girloftheworld
                                                    The Dairy Queen RE: girloftheworld Aug 13, 2013 10:54 AM

                                                    Presumably that person appreciates the gesture, even if the beverage s/he ends up being treated to is a mere orange juice or diet coke.


                                                    1. re: The Dairy Queen
                                                      JonParker RE: The Dairy Queen Aug 13, 2013 10:58 AM

                                                      It would be easier and cheaper to buy the kid a couple of scotch and sodas.

                                                      1. re: JonParker
                                                        youareabunny RE: JonParker Aug 13, 2013 11:43 AM

                                                        I would have suggested Benadryl but I like your thinking.

                                                3. re: youareabunny
                                                  DeppityDawg RE: youareabunny Aug 13, 2013 10:30 AM

                                                  That was the only reason you tolerated it? What would you have done if the plane had been full and the child had been right next to you?

                                                  1. re: DeppityDawg
                                                    youareabunny RE: DeppityDawg Aug 13, 2013 10:45 AM

                                                    I would've probably jumped out.

                                                    Seriously though, I really don't know what I would have done. Hassled them til they got me drunk and asleep probably... Not too many options unfortunately. And I don't exaggerate with the amount of crying, it was easily over an hour of crying in total. I felt bad for the passengers in her vicinity.

                                                    The woman behind me said "put something in its mouth." Lol

                                                    1. re: youareabunny
                                                      DeppityDawg RE: youareabunny Aug 13, 2013 11:11 AM

                                                      So selfish… jumping out only solves the problem for one person.

                                                      1. re: DeppityDawg
                                                        youareabunny RE: DeppityDawg Aug 13, 2013 11:44 AM

                                                        I'm in it for me, the hell with everyone else. It would not have been the first time I've jumped out of a plane. They've got to have a parachute in my size.

                                              2. p
                                                pedalfaster RE: Firegoat Aug 8, 2013 01:52 PM

                                                When dining out with kids my mantra: tip HUGE and tip often!

                                                A restaurant is not my house. Some else (not my maid) cleans up that mess. Because kids ARE messy. They just are.

                                                "That Person" needs to be paid, and paid well. The resto owner probably isn't going to do that.
                                                It is my responsibility. Otherwise, I can stay home and invite friends over.

                                                1 Reply
                                                1. re: pedalfaster
                                                  c oliver RE: pedalfaster Aug 8, 2013 04:45 PM

                                                  Our 19 and 20 month old grandbabies were just here for a visit. My avatar so enjoying foraging around their high chairs.

                                                  And, yes, to the notion that giving small children something like a scone is just asking for a mess. We had two lunches out with the wee ones and they had some broken apart chicken strips, fish from fish tacos, fries, berries and fried zucchini strips.

                                                2. drongo RE: Firegoat Aug 8, 2013 05:08 PM

                                                  I think it depends on the type of restaurant. I'll admit that I've been hugely embarrassed when I've been to restaurants where my daughter and my friends' kids have made a mess -- but those were restaurants focused on adults rather than kids. If the restaurant had "shamed" us (without identifying us), I would have been OK because I had already mentally accepted my embarrassment about our behavior. But if I went to Chuck E. Cheese (for example -- or any restaurant focussed on kids) I would have been surprised and upset to be called out for messiness.

                                                  (My daughter is now 17 -- so crumbs from scones are not a big issue for me... I'm more worried about the family car!)

                                                  1. r
                                                    rockycat RE: Firegoat Aug 8, 2013 06:18 PM

                                                    I'm always amazed at how much utter dislike - approaching outright hatred in some cases - there is for young children on this board.

                                                    What if a 40-year old, a 70-year old, or a disabled person had spilled a cup of coffee on the precious carpet? That would have caused a worse clean up problem than crumbs which can just be vacuumed up. Yet I somehow believe that that particular photo would not have made it on the web and that there would have been no recriminations from the cafe or from members of this board.

                                                    Just sayin'.

                                                    13 Replies
                                                    1. re: rockycat
                                                      c oliver RE: rockycat Aug 8, 2013 06:20 PM

                                                      Excellent post, rockycat! And the name of the place is Rainy Day Cafe'. Doesn't sound high end to me.

                                                      1. re: c oliver
                                                        juliejulez RE: c oliver Aug 8, 2013 09:14 PM

                                                        http://www.rainydayscaffe.com/ real high end looking website there.

                                                        This is what the place looks like: https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...

                                                        Interesting that, according to the map on their site, they are about 2 blocks from the "Lake Stevens Family Center", and next to the public library. With close proximity to places like that, you'd think the owner would be used to children coming in.

                                                        Also funny that they tout their "Swiss Hospitality". Does Swiss hospitality include being an asshole to your customers?

                                                        1. re: juliejulez
                                                          LindaWhit RE: juliejulez Aug 10, 2013 05:30 AM

                                                          Interesting - on their website, there's a caption at the bottom of every page that says "Rainy Days Caffe can be found in Downtown Lake Stevens at 1801 Main Street, right next to Jay's Market. Great food, awesome espresso and cupfuls of attitude!"

                                                          "Cupfuls of attitude" - well, at least they got THAT right!

                                                          I thought the owner was wrong in calling out the mother in the midst of her meal. This wasn't done at the END. She didn't even give the mother a chance to clean up after her 1 and 3 year old kids. This wasn't "hospitality". It was flat out rude.

                                                          And then to post the picture? Stupid.

                                                          1. re: LindaWhit
                                                            DeppityDawg RE: LindaWhit Aug 10, 2013 06:06 AM

                                                            According to the owner's side of the story, there was also a problem with noise. In the case of disruptive customers, you don't wait until the end to say something.

                                                            That said, I don't know if the owner's story is true, and even if it is, it's obvious that she did not handle the situation in the best way.

                                                            1. re: DeppityDawg
                                                              Leonardo RE: DeppityDawg Aug 10, 2013 09:32 AM

                                                              If there are problems with noise, thowing things, running around, they must be addressed immediately not at the end, so as to prevent injury, property damage, and disturbing other customers.

                                                              1. re: Leonardo
                                                                Ruthie789 RE: Leonardo Aug 10, 2013 09:38 AM

                                                                Agree, we used to take my son to tennis and sit in the cafe waiting for it to end. A group of mothers met every time, the younger children roved around, emptied the sugar bowls, and brought down a small publicity tent, they were oblivious. Finally the manager intervened after the tent disaster and told the mothers to watch the children or they would be asked to leave and also would have to pay for damages incurred. That is a worst case example however.

                                                            2. re: LindaWhit
                                                              dmjordan RE: LindaWhit Aug 10, 2013 06:59 AM

                                                              "Cupfuls of attitude"

                                                              What an odd thing to include on you menu.

                                                            3. re: juliejulez
                                                              INDIANRIVERFL RE: juliejulez Aug 11, 2013 07:05 AM

                                                              Having spent a lot of time in Switzerland, yes, this is Swiss hospitality to children acting like that.

                                                          2. re: rockycat
                                                            Veggo RE: rockycat Aug 8, 2013 06:35 PM

                                                            I think many enjoy watching children play and have fun, from a safe distance on the other side of a security fence. No hatred or dislike.
                                                            I was a camp counselor of 10 year olds for 2 years at a YMCA camp, and I enjoyed the experience, and there were a few precocious ones I would have enjoyed at my table in a restaurant, but no infants.

                                                            1. re: rockycat
                                                              dmjordan RE: rockycat Aug 9, 2013 07:53 AM

                                                              Well, there is a difference between someone accidentally spilling a drink and someone not cleaning up after their child.

                                                              1. re: dmjordan
                                                                rockycat RE: dmjordan Aug 9, 2013 08:01 AM

                                                                So if an adult were a messy eater and the food ended up on the floor? Why does the intent or the age of the "perpetrator" matter? The end result is the same. Also, we don't know that the parents would not have cleaned up. They weren't given the chance.

                                                                1. re: rockycat
                                                                  dmjordan RE: rockycat Aug 9, 2013 08:06 AM

                                                                  The age doesn't matter at all. I only mentioned cleaning up after their child because that was this story is about. Also, I mentioned above that the mother didn't have the opportunity to clean up before the manager came over. I'm was just talking in general. Accidents/kids happen, but if you make a mess, clean it up.

                                                              2. re: rockycat
                                                                jlhinwa RE: rockycat Aug 12, 2013 08:24 PM

                                                                Excellent point about elderly or disabled folks, who can also cause disruption and mess. My dear father was 80 when his first and only grandchild was born. We used to joke (privately of course) that there would come a time when their maturity and overall behavior would intersect and my daughter would be easier to be handle out and about than my dad. I thought it would be when my daughter hit about 7-8. In reality, she was about 3-4 when it happened (dementia....sigh).

                                                              3. The Dairy Queen RE: Firegoat Aug 8, 2013 06:25 PM

                                                                Oh! My! God! Crumbs on the floor of a cafe! What next, watery footprints at the local pool?


                                                                9 Replies
                                                                1. re: The Dairy Queen
                                                                  juliejulez RE: The Dairy Queen Aug 9, 2013 08:07 AM

                                                                  Exactly. I also wonder how people who say "the mom should have cleaned up after her kids" expect her to clean up crumbs off of a carpet? Get on her hands and knees and pick them up one by one? Gone up to the counter and asked for the vacuum? Tidying up a table before leaving is one thing, that's pretty easy to do, but crumbs from a carpet?

                                                                  1. re: juliejulez
                                                                    Firegoat RE: juliejulez Aug 9, 2013 08:19 AM

                                                                    Order something less messy perhaps? Put down napkins? Keep the food on the table? Pre-cut the scone into nice tiny child-size bite-sized pieces to avoid the shredding of crumbs everywhere? Who knows. Different parents seem to have very different scales of both expected child behavior and entitlement they expect from staff.

                                                                    1. re: Firegoat
                                                                      juliejulez RE: Firegoat Aug 9, 2013 08:54 AM

                                                                      Put napkins all over the floor? I dunno, in this situation I think that the owner was just out of line. It would have taken her about 1 minute to vacuum it up after they left.

                                                                      1. re: Firegoat
                                                                        sunshine842 RE: Firegoat Aug 9, 2013 06:49 PM

                                                                        How many times have you ever seen someone crawling around on the floor spreading napkins?

                                                                        1. re: sunshine842
                                                                          girloftheworld RE: sunshine842 Aug 9, 2013 07:07 PM

                                                                          My mom put a basinet sheet under our highchairs and rolled it up and stuffed it our bag. when we were older we hadto pick our mess..with a crumbroller..it was this roller brush encased in a silver block like an eraser

                                                                          1. re: girloftheworld
                                                                            sunshine842 RE: girloftheworld Aug 9, 2013 07:21 PM

                                                                            she made you crawl around on the floor of a restaurant?

                                                                            I swept up my kids' mess if needed...but I just asked them for a broom or a carpet sweeper and did the job.

                                                                            1. re: sunshine842
                                                                              girloftheworld RE: sunshine842 Aug 9, 2013 07:35 PM

                                                                              there was no crawling.. by the time we were out of the high chair we seldom spilt all over the floor.. the crumb sweeper was for the table... from rolls and crackers and kid dreck...egad if we crawled on the floor ...no..just no..

                                                                              1. re: girloftheworld
                                                                                sunshine842 RE: girloftheworld Aug 9, 2013 08:28 PM

                                                                                okay...I was wondering.

                                                                    2. re: The Dairy Queen
                                                                      Dirtywextraolives RE: The Dairy Queen Aug 9, 2013 07:44 PM

                                                                      Exactly! Heaven forbid!

                                                                    3. Ruthie789 RE: Firegoat Aug 8, 2013 06:33 PM

                                                                      Some restaurants are for children others are not. Perhaps the owner-manager does not have children and is intolerant of the little people. Parents do have a responsibility to watch their children, if my son made a mess I would pick it up.

                                                                      11 Replies
                                                                      1. re: Ruthie789
                                                                        c oliver RE: Ruthie789 Aug 8, 2013 06:39 PM

                                                                        I mean, really, does this look like the kinda place where you wouldn't take a small child?


                                                                        1. re: c oliver
                                                                          Ruthie789 RE: c oliver Aug 8, 2013 06:50 PM

                                                                          It looks lovely and I love the menu. I am from Quebec and breakfast restaurants are all over the place and all ages of the family are in attendance. I would have brought my son there but he would be strapped and secured in high chair and if he did make a mess it would be picked up to the best of my ability. People seem to have a sense of entitlement these days, and do have a my mess is your mess to clean up attitude. I was at Starbucks the other night and was amazed at how people did not discard their cups in the garbage and I did have to do this task for my friends at the table.

                                                                          1. re: Ruthie789
                                                                            Violatp RE: Ruthie789 Aug 8, 2013 06:57 PM

                                                                            A Starbucks barista once gave me a free drink coupon because I gave him my almost full coffee to discard instead of pouring into the garbage!

                                                                            1. re: Violatp
                                                                              c oliver RE: Violatp Aug 8, 2013 06:58 PM

                                                                              I would have assumed that he thought you didn't like it.

                                                                              1. re: c oliver
                                                                                Violatp RE: c oliver Aug 8, 2013 07:12 PM

                                                                                Ha! I didn't. It was their yucky Sumatra blend. But he was appreciative of not having to deal with a sloshy garbage bag.

                                                                              2. re: Violatp
                                                                                Ruthie789 RE: Violatp Aug 8, 2013 07:01 PM

                                                                                He was a nice barista!

                                                                              3. re: Ruthie789
                                                                                LaLa RE: Ruthie789 Aug 8, 2013 07:00 PM

                                                                                They were not given a chance to clean up...the owner came over and yelled at them before they got to the clean up stage. Besides with than type of carpet only big pieces could be picked up by hand!

                                                                                1. re: LaLa
                                                                                  Ruthie789 RE: LaLa Aug 9, 2013 04:35 AM

                                                                                  I guess she was having a bad day. Carpet on a restaurant floor is ridiculous.

                                                                                  1. re: Ruthie789
                                                                                    EWSflash RE: Ruthie789 Aug 9, 2013 06:20 PM

                                                                                    Agree completely.

                                                                              4. re: c oliver
                                                                                juliejulez RE: c oliver Aug 8, 2013 09:15 PM

                                                                                That isn't the right one, that one is located in New Jersey. I linked above to the one in question.

                                                                                1. re: juliejulez
                                                                                  c oliver RE: juliejulez Aug 9, 2013 08:06 AM

                                                                                  Thanks. Sloppy searching on my part. And, yeah, you'd think they'd understand. Plus any place that calls a panina a panini loses points with me :)

                                                                            2. v
                                                                              Violatp RE: Firegoat Aug 8, 2013 06:40 PM

                                                                              There's a new-ish coffee house near me that I was very excited about. About a month after they'd been open, the owner posted a lengthy diatribe on their FB page about people making messes, treating it like was their living room, etc., etc. It was directed towards one person/group, though he did not name names.

                                                                              Honestly, it made me SO uncomfortable that I've never been back. I got the feeling that I'd be under a watchful eye every minute I was trying to relax and woe betide me if I left a crumb!

                                                                              I love indie coffee houses, I love supporting local businesses, but he lost me as a customer.

                                                                              1 Reply
                                                                              1. re: Violatp
                                                                                c oliver RE: Violatp Aug 8, 2013 06:45 PM

                                                                                Thanks for putting your money where your mouth is. Agree.

                                                                              2. a
                                                                                Apple RE: Firegoat Aug 8, 2013 07:06 PM

                                                                                Both parties take themselves far too seriously.

                                                                                When travelling to London for business last year, I was struck by the number of young children eating dinner in nice restaurants. So well behaved! Such excellent manners. So it can be done.

                                                                                As a mother of two young children (3 year old and newborn), I realize there are limits to where I can go and reasonably expect to be accommodated. We only go out for dinner when our kids are well rested (not liable for a total meltdown.) We try to eat early-ish, and places that offer kids menus. (Are these the greatest meals, hell no...but at least it gives us a night out.) Occasionally, we crave sushi from our favourite sushi place. It's always busy there so we make a reservation, we get a booth and we order right away. If food goes a flying, we clean it up. If the baby becomes impatient, we get up and rock him. If the toddler becomes tyrannical, we remind him of his manners and then quickly try to wrap up.

                                                                                The only problem we ever ran into was when we went to brunch and I asked for a high chair. The server said something like, "We don't really do that kind of thing." My son ended up sitting on my lap. Serves me right for taking my kid to a hipster brunch place. :)

                                                                                3 Replies
                                                                                1. re: Apple
                                                                                  DeppityDawg RE: Apple Aug 8, 2013 07:22 PM

                                                                                  "Both parties take themselves far too seriously." Totally agree. Playing the "military mom" card is especially disgusting, although I suspect that it was the media that chose to emphasize this totally irrelevant angle.

                                                                                  1. re: DeppityDawg
                                                                                    JonParker RE: DeppityDawg Aug 9, 2013 06:13 AM

                                                                                    First, saying "playing the ____ card" is a way of being dismissive without actually having to give a reason why. It's a repulsive saying that needs to die now.

                                                                                    Second, the fact that she's a military mom does seem relevant. It means that for the time being she's essentially a single mother who is trying her best to raise her children.

                                                                                    1. re: JonParker
                                                                                      DeppityDawg RE: JonParker Aug 9, 2013 09:55 AM

                                                                                      I normally assume, by default, that _all_ mothers are trying their best to raise their children. "Military mom" doesn't necessarily mean "absent father"; I have no idea what this woman's situation is, but I'm guessing that while this scone scandal was unfolding, her husband was working at nearby Naval Station Everett, not in Afghanistan.

                                                                                      Even if she is essentially a single mother, she is still responsible for keeping her kids' noise and mess under control in public. We will probably never have all the details in this story, but for the café owner, this mom failed. Not as a mother, but as a customer. (And then the café owner failed, as a professional trying to use social media.)

                                                                                2. j
                                                                                  Jerseygirl111 RE: Firegoat Aug 9, 2013 12:07 AM

                                                                                  I think this owner just needs to get herself a carpet sweeper or a vacuum. Bad form to yell at a customer for something so easily remedied.

                                                                                  3 Replies
                                                                                  1. re: Jerseygirl111
                                                                                    Ruthie789 RE: Jerseygirl111 Aug 9, 2013 04:38 AM

                                                                                    Or a dog, to gobble up the crumbs, mine would be a good candidate, always waiting in the lurch. All the same the parents should try to minimize the mess even if it is a children friendly restaurant. What do they do at home?

                                                                                    1. re: Ruthie789
                                                                                      Jerseygirl111 RE: Ruthie789 Aug 9, 2013 10:52 PM

                                                                                      I agree. You do your best as a parent to minimize mess but as a restaurant owner, spills and crumbs are the cost of doing business. It is food after all.

                                                                                      Perhaps the mom would have apologized as they were finshing up (I'm sorry, but we've made a terrible mess) but the owner came over in the middle of the meal to reprimand them. That's embarassing for the patron and not very good customer service. Then to continue the shaming by posting a picture on FB? Tut tut.

                                                                                      1. re: Jerseygirl111
                                                                                        Ruthie789 RE: Jerseygirl111 Aug 10, 2013 03:48 AM

                                                                                        Sharing it on FB is really a step too far for sure, but that line is being crossed far too much these days.

                                                                                  2. Firegoat RE: Firegoat Aug 9, 2013 06:30 AM

                                                                                    I'm guessing both parties were at fault and we'll never really know what happened. To hear one side the kids were also screaming loudly. To hear the other side they were perfectly behaved. The cafe owner could have just dealt with a ton of kid messes all day and been at her wit's end. Or not. At least she didn't publish the name of the people, and she did remove it and apologize.

                                                                                    1. Firegoat RE: Firegoat Aug 9, 2013 08:25 AM

                                                                                      Just an interesting aside, the owner of the cafe also is a military wife.
                                                                                      She donated the price of a scone for each facebook comment, even negative to raise money for school supplies for children.
                                                                                      She also indicates (her side) that one of the kids had the "mother of all melt downs" and that was what prompted her to ask them not to return with their kids.

                                                                                      31 Replies
                                                                                      1. re: Firegoat
                                                                                        Ruthie789 RE: Firegoat Aug 9, 2013 12:42 PM

                                                                                        Why do we keep refering to her as a military wife? My brother was in the military, and he is somewhat conservative, is that what the military reference is all about. It's ok to have some conservative values isn't it?

                                                                                        1. re: Ruthie789
                                                                                          juliejulez RE: Ruthie789 Aug 9, 2013 02:20 PM

                                                                                          I think these days, people say "I'm a military wife" to garner a bit of sympathy... since they're essentially like single moms when their husband is deployed. In this case, it has no relevance and shouldn't really even be mentioned.

                                                                                          1. re: juliejulez
                                                                                            Ruthie789 RE: juliejulez Aug 9, 2013 03:06 PM

                                                                                            Oh, that puts things in perspective. Our military is smaller so we are not hearing about deployments as much in the US.

                                                                                            1. re: juliejulez
                                                                                              JonParker RE: juliejulez Aug 9, 2013 05:57 PM

                                                                                              I totally disagree that it's not relevant. A military wife is essentially a single mother, even if it's temporary, and subject to pressures that a mother with a fully present spouse isn't.

                                                                                              1. re: JonParker
                                                                                                juliejulez RE: JonParker Aug 9, 2013 07:26 PM

                                                                                                So who gets the fly the military wife flag in this case to make it relevant? The mom, or the restaurant owner? They're both military wives. The mom could blame her kids misbehavior on that. The owner could blame her short temper on that.

                                                                                                I have friends who are military wives, and it's a hard life for sure, but I just get tired of hearing the excuses for when things don't go right. My cousin is a single mom with an ex-husband who is in and out of jail. She doesn't use that as an excuse when her kid has a meltdown, she just deals with it. And, her 11 year old daughter is awesome, and her 5 year old son is a good kid.

                                                                                                1. re: juliejulez
                                                                                                  girloftheworld RE: juliejulez Aug 9, 2013 07:40 PM

                                                                                                  I know this off topic... but this reminds of the time my mom was at a park with a bunch of moms we had met over the summer..mom teaches so they just assumed she was a stay at home mom like them... then it came out... mom was a single mom..left an abusive husband.. we were ( cue horrifide music) daycarebrokenhome kids. One of the moms actually said to my mom" OH my gosh you would never know your kids were daycare kids! you do such a great job hiding how deprived they are!"

                                                                                                  1. re: girloftheworld
                                                                                                    Ruthie789 RE: girloftheworld Aug 9, 2013 07:45 PM

                                                                                                    I dislike it when others try to define who someone is based on some kind of petty judgement.

                                                                                                  2. re: juliejulez
                                                                                                    Ruthie789 RE: juliejulez Aug 10, 2013 09:28 AM

                                                                                                    My brother went to the gulf war, leaving your family for a dangerous deployment is a very sad event, you just do not know if and when you will see each other again. Military families do have extra burdens. I thought the reference to military was about strict conservative values which lead the owner to oversee her operation with zeal. I misunderstood the context of what was driving her. In any case military or not each side has to own up to wrongdoing. You want to run a restaurant diplomacy is required when something is not right, you want to bring a child to a restaurant some bounderies have to be be in place, helping to clean the mess up would help to alleviate the situation.

                                                                                                    1. re: Ruthie789
                                                                                                      ratgirlagogo RE: Ruthie789 Aug 10, 2013 11:11 AM

                                                                                                      I would add that one of the burdens of a military family is the low military salary.

                                                                                                      1. re: ratgirlagogo
                                                                                                        Ruthie789 RE: ratgirlagogo Aug 10, 2013 01:02 PM

                                                                                                        True..for such a great sacrifice

                                                                                                  3. re: JonParker
                                                                                                    Worldwide Diner RE: JonParker Aug 9, 2013 08:05 PM

                                                                                                    Why do single mothers get some kind of exemption?

                                                                                                    1. re: Worldwide Diner
                                                                                                      DeppityDawg RE: Worldwide Diner Aug 9, 2013 08:13 PM

                                                                                                      They don't get a full exemption, but their children receive an additional crumb allowance equal to 20% (by weight) of one standard scone. This is increased to 25% for children of deployed military personnel.

                                                                                                      1. re: DeppityDawg
                                                                                                        Veggo RE: DeppityDawg Aug 9, 2013 08:24 PM

                                                                                                        The mothers toting around UXB's in restaurants?

                                                                                                    2. re: JonParker
                                                                                                      dmjordan RE: JonParker Aug 10, 2013 07:06 AM

                                                                                                      Just playing devil's advocate here. So being a military/single mother with extra pressure means your kids will make a mess? You won't clean up their mess? I don't see how military mom or single mom has anything to do with it.

                                                                                                      1. re: dmjordan
                                                                                                        JonParker RE: dmjordan Aug 10, 2013 07:07 AM

                                                                                                        Kids can be messy. And there is not one iota of evidence that she wouldn't clean up their mess.

                                                                                                        1. re: JonParker
                                                                                                          jpc8015 RE: JonParker Aug 10, 2013 07:12 AM

                                                                                                          It wasn't that bad of a mess to begin with.

                                                                                                          1. re: JonParker
                                                                                                            dmjordan RE: JonParker Aug 10, 2013 01:51 PM

                                                                                                            Not that I expect you to follow everything I've written here, but I've already mentioned twice on this thread that the owner berated the mother in the middle of the meal and no one knows whether the mom would have cleaned it up or not. In addition, this has been mentioned by soooo many people on this thread that I don't think it bears repeating.

                                                                                                            Also, I was responding specifically to your *general* statement that "A military wife is essentially a single mother, even if it's temporary, and subject to pressures that a mother with a fully present spouse isn't." That is why I wrote military OR single mother.

                                                                                                            1. re: dmjordan
                                                                                                              ursy_ten RE: dmjordan Aug 10, 2013 06:30 PM

                                                                                                              I read that the mother was in the process of trying to pick up after her child, so it wasn't like she was just sitting there oblivious, I think she was trying to do the right thing.

                                                                                                    3. re: Ruthie789
                                                                                                      JonParker RE: Ruthie789 Aug 9, 2013 05:51 PM

                                                                                                      Sorry to interrupt the conservative persecution complex, but it's really because her husband is away from his family for long stretches. I know you guys love to feel like we're all out to get you, but it's really not true.

                                                                                                      1. re: JonParker
                                                                                                        Ruthie789 RE: JonParker Aug 9, 2013 06:41 PM

                                                                                                        No I just did not understand the reference. Although I have two members of military in my family and my brother was deployed I think I misunderstood the context of a what it is to be a US military wife, with constant deployments. Sorry if I seemed on the defensive, I just did not get the reference.

                                                                                                        1. re: Ruthie789
                                                                                                          EWSflash RE: Ruthie789 Aug 9, 2013 08:48 PM

                                                                                                          The military mom reference is a red herring. It means nothing, unless maybe her husband is overseas, which counts for something, although nothing having to do with this post. I could say I was several things that may or may not pigeonhole me.

                                                                                                        2. re: JonParker
                                                                                                          Ruthie789 RE: JonParker Aug 10, 2013 03:56 PM

                                                                                                          You guys? All out to get you? What`s that about? Sometimes we need to just sit down and get to know each other and put aside our differences.

                                                                                                      2. re: Firegoat
                                                                                                        EWSflash RE: Firegoat Aug 9, 2013 06:49 PM

                                                                                                        My friend and her husband adopted her grandson, a six-year-old with a horrible prior life and several known severe behavioral health problems. They were permanently banned from several restaurants in the area due to his horrendous tantrums. She never once blamed the restaurants. She was horrified by the tantrums but was totally ill-equipped to deal with somebody as messed up as the boy. It's almost as if she thought that unconditional love and approval would fix him. Well, it didn't. You might wonder why the hell they took the kid to restaurants, it's because she made no bones about not being able to cook.
                                                                                                        I don't blame the restauranteur for asking them to leave. We don't know what happened in that restaurant, if the kid was psycho-acting-out and it was a small place, I can think it would be considered a much better choice to get rid of the offending party than risk scaring off all the other customers that weren't behaving badly.
                                                                                                        I have a grown son. we were lucky, he never made any fuss at all in a restaurant. But I don't have to like a screaming tantrummy kid when I'm trying to have a nice meal.

                                                                                                        1. re: EWSflash
                                                                                                          Ruthie789 RE: EWSflash Aug 9, 2013 07:30 PM

                                                                                                          My mother always said you never know someone until you walk a mile in their shoes.

                                                                                                          1. re: EWSflash
                                                                                                            Jerseygirl111 RE: EWSflash Aug 9, 2013 10:59 PM

                                                                                                            So in your opinion, someone with a special needs child shouldn't eat in a restaurant because they might make some noise?

                                                                                                            People are just trying to do the best they can. Can't we just give them a break sometimes?

                                                                                                            1. re: Jerseygirl111
                                                                                                              Withnail42 RE: Jerseygirl111 Aug 10, 2013 04:40 AM

                                                                                                              That clearly was not the point that EWSflash was making.

                                                                                                              1. re: Jerseygirl111
                                                                                                                EWSflash RE: Jerseygirl111 Aug 10, 2013 10:16 PM

                                                                                                                No. My point was that my friend never once blamed the restaurants that banned them. I thought I made that clear.
                                                                                                                BTW- my friend died. Her husband (retired cop with a master's degree in teaching) tried to raise the boy, but he began torturing animals, slashed up his bed with a knife, and then went in and started slashing up the couch Alan was sitting on. He was institutionalized at that point. Just to give you an idea of the scope of then boy's neuro damage.

                                                                                                                1. re: EWSflash
                                                                                                                  Jerseygirl111 RE: EWSflash Aug 13, 2013 11:24 AM

                                                                                                                  What a sad story.

                                                                                                                  1. re: EWSflash
                                                                                                                    youareabunny RE: EWSflash Aug 13, 2013 11:48 AM

                                                                                                                    That is tough.I spent my high school and college years working with special needs, and my cousin is special needs, to a rather extreme degree. At least your friend and husband gave him a chance. Unfortunately now he probably just spends his days completely drugged up.

                                                                                                              2. re: Firegoat
                                                                                                                LindaWhit RE: Firegoat Aug 10, 2013 05:41 AM

                                                                                                                If the meltdown was one of the reasons, why not mention that in her Facebook post with the crumbs? She only got sarcastic (her term) about the crumbs. Perhaps if the owner had better knowledge about customer service, she would have realized that posting pictures - sarcastic or not - was not good business form.

                                                                                                                No - the owner chose to deliberately shame the mother. The cafe owner said ""It was supposed to be snarky," MacDuff says, "If I wanted to humiliate them I would have taken their picture."

                                                                                                                So she COULD have humiliated the mother and kids even more. She took it easy on her. How very nice of her.

                                                                                                                Sorry - the owner was wrong in this case. It's possible one of the kids was having a meltdown - we only have the owner's word about that. So perhaps asking them to leave because of the meltdown is appropriate, but posting pictures of the mess afterwards is not. The owner got her ass bit right back, and she's pissed off she was taken to task for it publicly.

                                                                                                                Ends up being a tit-for-tat situation - she tried to shame the mother, and got shamed right back for her rudeness and business stupidity.

                                                                                                                1. re: LindaWhit
                                                                                                                  EWSflash RE: LindaWhit Aug 10, 2013 10:21 PM

                                                                                                                  Not everybody is great with the written word. I try to write everything rather than say it, because I'm pretty good with the written word. Maybe the restauranteur wasn't. I basically think she was a cow for even bringing it up on social media, but she may have left something out, like a psychotic break on the part of a kid, for example.

                                                                                                              3. girloftheworld RE: Firegoat Aug 9, 2013 11:05 AM

                                                                                                                1. she didn't name the mother of identify the kids in the post.
                                                                                                                2. there is nothing wrong with expecting kids to behave in public .."kids will be kids" no Kids will be the kids you expect them to be
                                                                                                                3.. sitting in a chair at home taght me not to make a mess when i was out. And we also were warned with a stern " public manners" before entering a place. If we made a mess we cleaned it. not the wait staff.
                                                                                                                4. I think it is time to stand up to some rude behaviour be it children or adults.

                                                                                                                1. j
                                                                                                                  jpc8015 RE: Firegoat Aug 10, 2013 06:16 AM

                                                                                                                  Somebody clearly has no business in the hospitality industry. That "mess" probably took all of about fifteen seconds to clean up.

                                                                                                                  Perhaps the owner has so much business that she is able to pick and choose who her clientelle is. Congratulations.

                                                                                                                  1. jgg13 RE: Firegoat Aug 10, 2013 08:54 AM

                                                                                                                    I fail to see the issue - there was no identifying info given so its not like they were outed. We have a local chef here, of a prominent resto, who will often bitch about bad customers via direct but non-identifying info. By that I mean something like this, where if you're that person you might realize eh mean you but someone else won't figure I who you are

                                                                                                                    4 Replies
                                                                                                                    1. re: jgg13
                                                                                                                      jpc8015 RE: jgg13 Aug 10, 2013 09:16 AM

                                                                                                                      She approached the customers mid meal and berated them.

                                                                                                                      1. re: jpc8015
                                                                                                                        jgg13 RE: jpc8015 Aug 10, 2013 09:50 AM

                                                                                                                        Indeed, but the tone of the article is that the real egregious behavior was the FB post.

                                                                                                                        1. re: jgg13
                                                                                                                          DeppityDawg RE: jgg13 Aug 10, 2013 10:25 AM

                                                                                                                          That's the part that "went viral", and that's the single necessary and sufficient condition for something to be "news" these days. The photo was quickly removed from the page, and the owner apologized and made a donation to a children's charity. The customer says she is dissatisfied with this response, but I wonder if she has anything worthwhile to gain by pursuing it. As a military mom trying her best to raise her kids, she must have better things to do with her time.

                                                                                                                          The original posts are no longer there, but people are still leaving comments about this everywhere else on the café's page.

                                                                                                                          1. re: DeppityDawg
                                                                                                                            jgg13 RE: DeppityDawg Aug 10, 2013 11:13 AM

                                                                                                                            And what I mean. I see nothing wrong with the Facebook post. The confrontation I can see the issue

                                                                                                                    2. m
                                                                                                                      miss_belle RE: Firegoat Aug 10, 2013 02:58 PM

                                                                                                                      Was anyone on this board actually in the cafe when this took place? No. All we know is that she said and she said and and and... I am so fed up with social media like Facebook & Twitter where some people think it's all about them and then the TV media gets ahold of it trying to get the public all worked up. It just irritates the shit out of me.

                                                                                                                      OK, off my soapbox now.:-)

                                                                                                                      1 Reply
                                                                                                                      1. re: miss_belle
                                                                                                                        Jerseygirl111 RE: miss_belle Aug 13, 2013 11:28 AM

                                                                                                                        It irritates so much that you took to the same internet and commented on a social media forum about it? Do you see the irony there? Lol.

                                                                                                                      2. b
                                                                                                                        bobbert RE: Firegoat Aug 10, 2013 05:27 PM

                                                                                                                        I raised 5 kids and can honestly say that I was (and still am)far more tolerant of the behavior of other children than my own. Personally, I kept a pretty tight leash on my kids when we went out. I also picked appropriate dining options (having a kids menu usually made me assume kids were welcome) and in those few instances where I was going to "give it a shot", the older ones were briefed on our expectations and an adult was prepared to leave with an unruly child if necessary. Making a mess was always a far less concern than disturbing other diners although that was certainly not ignored.

                                                                                                                        Most parents I see out with small children appear to follow those general rules as well. I have on rare occasions seen kids that were out of control with parents totally ignoring the situation. At McD's or Chucky Cheese, fine. If it's a place where I might be say, drinking wine, not fine. I'm actually pretty OK if the parent is showing their proper due diligence and is trying to control the child - then I'm sympathetic (as in, I'm glad that's not me). It's the ones who care little about what Jr. is up to that drive me nuts. These are the same people who think it's ok to bring the baby to the movie.

                                                                                                                        Now as far as the restaurant shaming their customers, not cool. They are in a business whose nature demands that they put up with things one might not be expected to put up with in their own home. If the child was disruptive to the point where it was obviously bothering other patrons AND the type of establishment was one that, let's say, frowned on having children in it (i.e. no children’s menu, high chairs available, etc.) then the parent is also wrong. Bottom line: two wrongs still make a wrong.

                                                                                                                        1. l
                                                                                                                          linus RE: Firegoat Aug 10, 2013 09:33 PM

                                                                                                                          for heaven's sake, this shamer shaming must end.

                                                                                                                          1 Reply
                                                                                                                          1. re: linus
                                                                                                                            jpc8015 RE: linus Aug 11, 2013 01:16 AM

                                                                                                                            Did you just shame the shamer shamer? Shame on you.

                                                                                                                          2. Firegoat RE: Firegoat Aug 11, 2013 04:39 AM

                                                                                                                            A Today show video on restaurants banning kids mentioning the Rainy Day Cafe. Includes a poll.

                                                                                                                            1 Reply
                                                                                                                            1. re: Firegoat
                                                                                                                              LindaWhit RE: Firegoat Aug 11, 2013 06:40 AM

                                                                                                                              Those restaurants whose policies were noted, sans one, were all banning kids of various ages after 7pm. Not a daytime ban, IIRC, which is when the mother in the original situation was at the Caffe.

                                                                                                                              I do like the one "Screaming kids will not be tolerated" at Olde Salty in No. Carolina. It's informing parents that if the kids throw a tantrum and you can't calm him/her, everyone has to leave. Which is the way it SHOULD be, but obviously, there are parents who won't do anything.

                                                                                                                              But the sushi bar in Alexandria, VA banning "all kids under 18"? Really? That seems a bit extreme. Teens are much better versed in different types of food and, for the most part, wouldn't fall into the disruptive behavior mode. Those going to sushi bars are unlikely to be those who park themselves at McDonald's and Subways.

                                                                                                                            2. i
                                                                                                                              INDIANRIVERFL RE: Firegoat Aug 11, 2013 07:26 AM

                                                                                                                              As a former Dependent Husband, I really chuckle at the preconceived notions of what a military wife goes through.

                                                                                                                              The place posted on Facebook what they do not expect from their patrons.

                                                                                                                              Said patrons then identify themselves and howl with indignation.

                                                                                                                              Social media is a fact, and should be part of ones' thought process when in public. And Dear Daughter keeps asking me why I refuse to be on Facebook. This is an excellent example.

                                                                                                                              20 Replies
                                                                                                                              1. re: INDIANRIVERFL
                                                                                                                                linus RE: INDIANRIVERFL Aug 11, 2013 07:57 AM

                                                                                                                                the day i make social media a part of my thought process when in public is the day i play lollipop with a revolver.

                                                                                                                                1. re: INDIANRIVERFL
                                                                                                                                  sunshine842 RE: INDIANRIVERFL Aug 11, 2013 08:46 AM

                                                                                                                                  Your choice to participate (or not) on Facebook has no bearing on whether or not your name, likeness, or a description of something you've said or done, in public or private, ever appears there.

                                                                                                                                  It's ugly, and you'll make yourself bananas if you dwell on it, but there it is.

                                                                                                                                  1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                    INDIANRIVERFL RE: sunshine842 Aug 11, 2013 09:11 AM

                                                                                                                                    It severly creeped me out when 2 former girlfriends contacted me within a couple of months after my divorce.

                                                                                                                                    While a boost to my fragile male ego, it was still creepy.

                                                                                                                                    No, I did not respond, for that reason.

                                                                                                                                    1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                      linus RE: sunshine842 Aug 11, 2013 09:34 AM

                                                                                                                                      if you don't care about social media, it doesn't matter if you appear on social media.

                                                                                                                                      if someone contacts you because they found you on social media, you don't have to respond.

                                                                                                                                      1. re: linus
                                                                                                                                        sunshine842 RE: linus Aug 11, 2013 10:13 AM

                                                                                                                                        yeeeah....depends entirely on how you end up depicted on social media...because it will end up out in the wild eventually.

                                                                                                                                        1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                          JonParker RE: sunshine842 Aug 11, 2013 10:19 AM

                                                                                                                                          It helps if you decide that there is no such thing as privacy anymore and own up to who you are, warts and all. That's why I use my real name online. I've said and done things I'm not proud of and wouldn't stand behind if confronted with them, but in the end I'm me.

                                                                                                                                          1. re: JonParker
                                                                                                                                            sunshine842 RE: JonParker Aug 11, 2013 10:53 AM

                                                                                                                                            there are enough people with nefarious motives out there that my use of a screen name has nothing to do with not accepting who I am, but everything to do with protecting who *I* am, not who someone posts that I am...whether it's on Facebook or a banking site.

                                                                                                                                    2. re: INDIANRIVERFL
                                                                                                                                      JonParker RE: INDIANRIVERFL Aug 11, 2013 10:03 AM

                                                                                                                                      This is getting way too personal for CH, and its completely OT as well, but I can't let this slide. When I was in high school my girlfriend at the time gave a child up for adoption. It was painful then, and remained painful for a long time. Three years ago my daughter found me through social media. We've built a very strong relationship since then (and for those who are convinced that nurture trumps nature, I'll add that there's more in heaven and earth..).

                                                                                                                                      Like all human inventions, there's a good side and a bad side to social media, but to dismiss it as trivial or to act like it's anything other than a huge advance in people's ability to communicate with each other is a big mistake. If I hadn't been on Facebook, I wouldn't have had the chance to know and love my daughter.

                                                                                                                                      1. re: JonParker
                                                                                                                                        Firegoat RE: JonParker Aug 11, 2013 10:05 AM

                                                                                                                                        I, for one, am very happy to hear about your situation JonParker and that you've been able to find some resolution and happiness after that situation!

                                                                                                                                        1. re: Firegoat
                                                                                                                                          JonParker RE: Firegoat Aug 11, 2013 10:09 AM

                                                                                                                                          Me too, although you can imagine her horror at finding out her parents were Okies.

                                                                                                                                          1. re: JonParker
                                                                                                                                            Firegoat RE: JonParker Aug 11, 2013 10:10 AM

                                                                                                                                            LOL As a half of my life Okie, I can assure her, we're not that bad.

                                                                                                                                        2. re: JonParker
                                                                                                                                          The Dairy Queen RE: JonParker Aug 11, 2013 11:09 AM

                                                                                                                                          That's a pretty great story, Jon. :)

                                                                                                                                          (But, adding quietly, I still believe in people's right to their privacy, online and elsewhere. Nevertheless, social media is here to stay. We might as well figure out how to live with it. I'm sure we'll eventually figure out as a society to set and enforce limits, but for now, it's a little bit like the wild wild west.)

                                                                                                                                          I don't actually think the cafe owner was guilty of violating anyone's privacy. As firegoat says, it was the child's mother who outed herself, the owner was just guilty of engaging in rude and possibly damaging-to-her-business behavior, which she magnified by posting about it online.


                                                                                                                                          1. re: The Dairy Queen
                                                                                                                                            JonParker RE: The Dairy Queen Aug 11, 2013 11:18 AM

                                                                                                                                            Thanks! I'll just say that believing in a right to privacy and believing that we have any expectation of privacy are two different things. Pandora's Box is open. We need to learn to live in a post-privacy world.

                                                                                                                                            1. re: JonParker
                                                                                                                                              The Dairy Queen RE: JonParker Aug 11, 2013 11:28 AM

                                                                                                                                              100% agreed.

                                                                                                                                              The Ethicist last week struggled to answer a question about whether parents are violating their own children's privacy by posting about them on facebook. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/mag...

                                                                                                                                              Given how hard it is to answer even that question, I think when you're posting about other people's children, you need to be even more cautious and restrained. I think the cafe owner was fighting with fire. I don't think she crossed the line on privacy, but she was very close to it.


                                                                                                                                              1. re: JonParker
                                                                                                                                                Ruthie789 RE: JonParker Aug 11, 2013 01:48 PM

                                                                                                                                                It`s so easy to vent to a virtual world. Are we becoming a bunch of virtual whiners? What purpose was served by the posting to FB?

                                                                                                                                                1. re: Ruthie789
                                                                                                                                                  INDIANRIVERFL RE: Ruthie789 Aug 12, 2013 07:44 AM

                                                                                                                                                  More than 15 minutes of fame.

                                                                                                                                                  Try buying this much advertising.

                                                                                                                                                  I am sure that the patrons have now retained counsel and will settle out of court.

                                                                                                                                                  As one of my supervisors stated after a meeting. "There is something so cynical about you at times." This usually happens when human nature is involved.

                                                                                                                                                  1. re: INDIANRIVERFL
                                                                                                                                                    JonParker RE: INDIANRIVERFL Aug 12, 2013 08:56 AM

                                                                                                                                                    I can't see a lawyer taking this case. There's nothing to sue over.

                                                                                                                                                    1. re: JonParker
                                                                                                                                                      Firegoat RE: JonParker Aug 12, 2013 09:03 AM

                                                                                                                                                      Agree. Completely lacks a cause of action.

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: JonParker
                                                                                                                                                        sunshine842 RE: JonParker Aug 12, 2013 05:47 PM

                                                                                                                                                        since when has that ever stopped a lawyer from taking a case?

                                                                                                                                                        1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                                          INDIANRIVERFL RE: sunshine842 Aug 13, 2013 08:07 AM

                                                                                                                                                          With a hefty non-refundable retainer.

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