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Tramontina Tri Ply Safety Issue - Edges Like Knives

I purchased Tri Ply Clad NSF Tramontina cookware over a year ago. The edges have become sharp as knives since the aluminum in the middle of the tri ply has become eroded to the point that both the exterior edge and the interior edge are as sharp as a knives all around the diameter of the pans. I purchased both the 8 piece and 10 piece tri ply clad sets as well as several other Tramontina Tri Ply open stock items. I have cut my hands and arms several times on these pieces. I have contacted the Tramontina company who did not seem to care. I regret my purchase and would never purchase any Tramontina product again. Has anyone else had this experience?

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  1. That seems really odd. You must have something really corrosive to eat that much aluminum so quickly.

    13 Replies
    1. re: Sid Post

      I don't get to cook all that much (time), don't use high heat, and treat the Tramontina Tri Ply the same way I treated my non tri ply cookware. I put them in the dishwasher (time.) According to Tramontina this tri ply is dishwasher safe. That's one reason why I bought them.

      1. re: QueensTomato

        QueensTomato,

        Virtually all uncoated tri-ply is dishwasher safe. Elron and I also have some corrosion problems with aluminum. It appears to be the fault of the dishwashing detergent we're using. If you're using an all-in-one, Jet Dry, Lemi-shine, vinegar or adding softening salt, that could be the cause of your problem. All of them seem to corrode aluminum.

        I've got hard water, so for me, I need to use some sort of softener (like those above) to prevent hard water etching and cloudiness on my glassware. That means I'm going to have to hand wash my pots. FWIW, those Tramontina pans are very high on the list of cookware I've been testing as I prepare to move to induction cooking. I think hand washing is, for me at least, a small trade-off for the performance of those pans.

        Maybe one of our resident science geeks will weigh in with an alternative that will solve my problem (and yours), but I'm not hopeful.

        1. re: DuffyH

          Duffy H,

          I guess I need cookware as tough as old boots!

          Is there any tri ply out there with sealed edges, constructed entirely of stainless that you know of?

          1. re: QueensTomato

            What you want is disk-bottom cookware. The conductive layer of aluminum or copper is encapsulated in a disk that is bonded to the bottom of the pan. The side walls are constructed entirely of stainless steel.

            You'll notice a performance difference in frypans, especially if you cook on a gas range, but the advantage of no corrosion could outweigh that.

            Look for pans that have a disk that is as close as possible to the diameter of the bottom of the pan for best results. Pans with smaller disks may cook unevenly, because the steel walls won't heat as quickly as the bonded base.

            1. re: DuffyH

              DuffyH,

              You are describing the cookware I donated when I upgraded to the tri ply clad.

              Having tri ply clad, sealed at the edges with SS rivets would be great. Performance and convenience.

              1. re: QueensTomato

                QT,

                <Having tri ply clad, sealed at the edges with SS rivets would be great. Performance and convenience.>

                Speaking of rivets, what do the rivets on your Tramontina look like? Are they corroding? I thought they were stainless inside and out.

                1. re: DuffyH

                  The rivets on the Tramontina look fine - they are fully stainless.

                  The rivets on the lid for a Cuisinart SS, stock pot are starting to look fuzzy and misshapen.

                  1. re: QueensTomato

                    QT -

                    Thanks for the info, it's good to know. As I'm shopping now for new induction cookware, Tramontina is high on my list. Very high. I really like the weight, balance and handles on it. The stainless rivets are just one more sign of quality.

                    Aside from the aluminum corrosion, how do you like it?

                    1. re: DuffyH

                      Duffy H,

                      For me it was a step up from my disc bottom clad. Sauces and omelets were much improved.

                      I did notice on the 12 in. saute pan that the heat is not well distributed to the edge of the pan. Almost 2 inches around the diameter get less heat.

                      1. re: QueensTomato

                        Thanks, QT.

                        I'm glad to know it beats disk bottom cookware, as I am not a fan of that stuff.

                        I was watching water come to a boil in my 3.5 qt Calphalon clad saucepan tonight and noticed that it had a somewhat weird heating pattern. On my radiant smoothtop, a ring of bubbles formed, then they got wider, as expected. But one side of the pan was noticeably lagging behind the rest of the pan. The water was almost at a full boil before bubbles began rising from the the side nearest the handle. Too strange.

                        1. re: DuffyH

                          DuffyH,
                          Your Calphalon Tri Ply Clad has been going strong in the dishwasher for 11 years and my Tramontina didn't even last 11 months. The piece that is most affected is the frying pan which does not have straight edges. Could the Calphalon be better quality?

                          1. re: QueensTomato

                            QT,

                            I doubt it's a question of quality. Many people would say that Calphalon TP is not up to the quality of Tramontina. I often see reviews placing Tramontina on par with All-Clad, followed by Cuisinart tri-ply, with Calphalon somewhere down the line. I can't say, I only know it's served me well. While I was waiting for the corn to pop yesterday I checked the edge on my large saucepan, and it is indeed pretty sharp, with 2 definite edges where the aluminum has receded. Mine has rolled rims, which may help explain why I didn't notice it before.

                            Coogles pointed out below that banning phosphates in 2010 had the detergent makers looking for other ways to boost cleaning power, with additions like citric acid and baking soda, which is bad news for aluminum. I didn't know that, and it may explain why my Calphalon has lasted so long but is now deteriorating.

                            1. re: QueensTomato

                              Hi, QT:

                              From where I sit, Calphalon has a wide and deep reservoir of quality and credibility to draw upon. There are different lines, of course, but it is a venerable and generally trustworthy brand. Construction-for-construction, I vouch for it.

                              This discussion has shifted. If anyone wants cookware that is impervious to highly acidic and abrasive DW tabs, good luck--as far as I know, it doesn't exist. Thick, straight-gauge SS might work the longest, but you wouldn't like the performance...

                              Aloha,
                              Kaleo

      2. Eroded from.... what??

        I'll take a guess that you're running them thru the dishwasher. And maybe also guess that you're using one of the newer "all-in-one" detergent tablets?

        15 Replies
        1. re: Eiron

          Elron,

          Do you think it's the salts in the all-in-one tabs that are to blame? I ask because we've got hard water and if I don't use a combo detergent I do fill the salt dispenser in my DW.

          I'm about to replace my cookware and would be willing to give up the DW if necessary, but would rather find a work-around if possible. But hard water and spots remain an issue.

          1. re: DuffyH

            Spots are cosmetic, so I wouldn't worry about them hindering the performance of your cookware. I'd hand wash.

            1. re: Leepa

              Leepa, I'm not worried at all about spots on my cookware. I'm wondering if using plain DW detergent + salt in the DW will still cause the corrosion I'm seeing in the aluminum rivets.

              I'll wash the cookware by hand if need be, because using plain DW detergent alone is not an option. It WILL leave spots, and eventually etch, my glassware. I've still got a few cloudy glasses left from the time before I began adding salt to soften my water.

              It's a common problem for people with hard water. We either use an all-in-one detergent, add Jet-Dry to plain old DW detergent, or add salt to the DW.

              1. re: DuffyH

                Your problem is understandable. I think hand washing pots and pans is the best option.

              2. re: Leepa

                I have just always hand washed my cookware- it seemed to big/ bulky to fit in DW around everything else. My Cuisinart SS with rosewood handles, bought when I married in 1977?! still looks great, except for wear on the bottoms!

              3. re: DuffyH

                Hi DuffyH,

                I'm not sure which component of the all-in-one tabs are causing the erosion. I use the 'Finish' brand "All-In-One" tabs, which are the dry tablets (about the size of a 9-volt battery) with the red ball in the center. As you already know, these have the Jet-Dry rinse aid included.

                Since you've already experienced aluminum erosion due to the addition of salt to your DW, I'd choose to stop using it. Personally, if you're washing a lot of aluminum, my choice would be to use "plain old DW detergent" with Jet-Dry (or another pre-packaged rinse agent) added in separately.

                I'm including a picture of our Revere Ware copper-coated cookware. Before we started using these all-in-one tabs, our copper was always 'old brown'. But now, they're always bright, just as they were when we bought them. I've noticed the same effect on an aluminum pasta strainer we have; it used to be dull grey, but now it's silver-white. It's obvious that the detergent is 'cleaning' (eroding) material that it never was before!

                 
                1. re: Eiron

                  <I've noticed the same effect on an aluminum pasta strainer we have; it used to be dull grey, but now it's silver-white.>

                  Elron, is the pasta strainer shiny, like polished aluminum? The rivets on my pans are silver white, but very rough, not at all shiny.

                  I use Finish Quantum, in the same shape and with the same Jet Dry ball. I don't currently use salt, as the Finish prevents etching. I can't imagine that ditching the Finish for vanilla DW detergent + salt will yield less corrosion. The salt would certainly act to set up an anode/cathode situation. I've heard people rave about Lemi-shine. Have you heard of that? I've no idea how it works.

                  Looks like I'll be hand-washing the new stuff when I get it.

                  1. re: DuffyH

                    No, the strainer is now like your rivets, very rough & it's even thinning noticeably. It wasn't all that thick to begin with, but at this rate I don't expect it to remain usable very much longer!

                    1. re: Eiron

                      Elron,

                      After snooping around with the Google machine, I found that both Jet Dry (which contains a chelating agent) and vinegar will corrode aluminum. Bummer. Looks like I'll have to switch to hand washing, after all.

                      I do thank you for pointing to the cause of the problem.

                  2. re: Eiron

                    Eiron,

                    Which dishwasher detergent do you think is safe to use with tri ply?

                    Currently I am using big city soft water.

                    1. re: QueensTomato

                      Hi QueensTomato,

                      I would say that any 'regular' automatic diswashing detergent (powder or gel) should work, based on my own experience. And, obviously, forget about adding any rinse aids.

                      We got our new KA dishwasher 2 yrs ago (I really wanted a Bosch, but the saleslady convinced my wife otherwise) & had no problems until we started using the Finish All-In-One tabs. Prior to that, I would buy whatever national-brand detergent was the best deal at the time. Usually that meant Cascade or Palmolive. And always the citrus version, as that's what my wife preferred.

                      Our copper stayed dark brown, & our aluminum stayed dark grey (& always had that lovely oxidized chalk residue).

                      But, to be honest, I don't care for the aluminum oxidation residue left by 'regular' detergent any more than the corrosion caused by all-in-one detergent. So I've always hand washed our tri-ply anyway.

                      I know, that's not really what you want to hear.... :-)

                      1. re: Eiron

                        I'm having trouble navigating your answer, sorry I'm a bit thick.

                        What do you think is the safest dishwasher deturgent to use with stainless steel that is multiple ply and involves aluminium: Brand/Type(Gel/powder/tablet)/Scent?

                        Anyone else please tell me what you think the safest dishwasher deturgent is as well, this isn't just directed at Eiron.

                        Also, what are you referring to when you say aluminium oxidation residue? Is it unsafe or just ugly? Is the cookware being harmed by this residue? Does it impart taste when you cook/get into food?

                        1. re: KungPaoDumplings

                          Hi KPD,

                          Sorry for not responding sooner, & sorry that I don't have a 'definitive' answer for you. As I mentioned, my only recommendation would be for a 'regular' automatic dishwashing detergent. By that I mean something that does NOT include 'power cleaners', 'scrubbing action', 'rinse aids', or anything other than just detergent. I don't believe brand, type, or scent makes a difference.

                          The aluminum oxidation is a medium-dark grey 'powder' that accumulates on the surface of unprotected aluminum. (It's aluminum's equivalent to steel rust.) The aluminum cookware is actually forming the oxidation as a protective layer (so that it doesn't continue to oxidize & disintegrate into pieces & chunks). My personal feeling is that I don't want to consume any of it, but many people feel that aluminum is non-reactive in the human body & therefore not a concern. I would imagine that it can have a slightly metallic taste, depending on how much gets mixed into your food, but I don't know because I tend to wash any oxidized aluminum off before I use the item.

                          1. re: Eiron

                            Please don't worry about the time (I'm sorry myself I took so long to reply to you) or the response, I'm just happy you responded and your answer is more than helpful in every way.

                            I understand what you mean now about "regular" detergent, this makes a lot of sense now.

                            Thank you for writing all of this out, it was very helpful; I understand what you were saying much more thoroughly now.

                  3. re: DuffyH

                    Before the government banned their use in consumer detergents in 2010, most dishwasher detergents contained phosphate based cleaners. After the ban, the manufacturers reformulated by increasing the levels of other cleaning agents (sodium carbonate and/or citric acid) so their products would still be somewhat effective, but one of the downsides (besides that they don't work nearly as well) is that they discolor and corrode aluminum. Until they figure out how to make an aluminum friendly detergent without phospahtes hand washing will be the way to go, or you could pick up some commercial grade detergent which is not covered by the ban (restaurant supply store or online at places like Amazon) and shouldn't be quite as bad on your aluminum.

                2. I recently noticed that my Calphalon tri-ply rivets (aluminum) are eroding. One of the lids fell apart when I dropped it. The handle fell right off. Calphalon sent me a new lid, so i was lucky there.

                  I haven't had any issues with the aluminum sandwich layer eroding and I've had them for over 11 yrs. My pans have rolled rims, though, not the straight rims of the Tramontina.

                  As Elron noted, I use an all-in-one packet in my DW.

                  1. I have a niece who put her aluminum 1/2 sheet pans in the dishwasger because she didn't have time to wash them after baking cookies (frozen cookie dough). After a while they were black and sticky. Her cake pans were the same. She then found it necessary to line them with aluminum foil when baking cakes and cookies (she is unaware of parchment). It was ridiculous. If she took the 2 or 3 minutes to wash the pan, she would have wasting much more time later. She also does not have the time to keep her kitchen drawers organized so she spends time looking in ever drawer (except the flatware drawer) looking for stuff.

                    We never put any cookware in the DW with the exception of an occassional small saucepan. The stuck on stuff will turn rock hard in the dry cycle. I use Barkeeper's Friend on all SS and it is fast, easy, and the interior of the pans are slick as a whistle with a mirror finish. It took me longer to write this post on a phone than it does to wash the cookware.

                    3 Replies
                    1. re: John E.

                      Hi John,

                      In defense of stainless tri-ply cookware, I washed it for many years (I've had mine for over 11 years) in the DW, and it's only in the last few years that I've begun to see a lot of corrosion on the aluminum rivets. When the rivets failed on one of my lids recently, Calphalon replaced it promptly.

                      I'd say I've had good service from my pans, and always liked the sparkling clean pans that emerged from my DW.

                      I contend that it's not TomatoQueen's fault, or mine, that the mfgs. don't tell us to avoid rinse agents.

                      1. re: DuffyH

                        I guess I did come off as overly critical and I should not have done so. I have always rather filled the dishwazher wirh uniform sized items such as plates, bowls, glasses, etc. and have preferred to wash by hand the pots and pans because they get cleaner (for me) and they do not divert the water away from getting other stuff completely clean. Plus, I remember what the DW did to the anodized aluminum saucepans we used to have.

                        1. re: John E.

                          I hear you, John. I wash most of my mixing bowls by hand, along with my often-used broiler pans, baking sheets, all my knives and so much more. I did switch to SS colanders and strainers a while back because my aluminum ones couldn't go in the DW at all.

                          And no plastic at all. I know a lot of it is top-rack safe, but I've had too many things warp to trust my Snapware to chance.

                    2. Hi, QT:

                      I've been holding off responding, waiting to see where this thread goes.

                      I've been with and without dishwashers off and on for the last 25 years. They're not as convenient as most people claim, if by "convenient" you mean "saves time" or "results". You pre-rinse; you sort; you load; you add detergent; you add rinse and sheeting agents; you fool with settings; you wait (while you wait, you search for a better all-in-one tab); you unload, only to find that you either filled it too full or you waited too long to run a full load. By the time you're done, you could have done the dishes 2-4x over by hand, including drying. Oh, I left out what happens in the DW if your garbage disposal has indigestion and shopping for the consumables.

                      Perhaps if you're a caterer or Octomom, a balance tips their way *a little*. IMHO, dishwashers sell only because: (a) people don't want to get their hands wet and/or dirty; and (b) they fear they'll be judged if their kitchen doesn't have one.

                      If you ever want to have the best cookware (i.e., thick copper or aluminum) or stemware (i.e., crystal), or china, you must hand wash anyway. If you want even good-grade versions of those things (e.g., cookware that is not fully clad with SS and with SS handles), you *should* hand wash for appearance and (as you've learned) longevity and safety. If your cookware is disposable enough to justify a mechanical appliance that quickly degrades it, what does that say about your cooking priorities? Is cooking an act of love, or is it just filling the tank? Where, in between, does it fall?

                      Tramontina is usually an excellent value. If you like it in all other respects, I would take your eroded pieces to a metal shop and have it smooth and round the sharp edges. It shouldn't cost very much, and the amount of metal removed would be negligible. And then I'd get in the habit of hand washing (or make that part of the kids' daily chores; they still do that, right, chores?).

                      Anyway, I hope you find what works for you.

                      Aloha,
                      Kaleo

                      24 Replies
                      1. re: kaleokahu

                        There you are, Kaleo! I've been waiting for you to jump in here.

                        I'm sort of with you on the question of whether or not to own a DW. Cooking for 2, I only run mine every 2nd or 3rd day, and all it contains is flatware, plates, and cups. Plus, yeah, 2 saucepans and their lids which I've got to stop doing.

                        I do a lot of hand washing, including all my frypans, plastics and metal baking pans. I lived without one for 6 months when I moved into my current home, because the existing one was worse than useless, with horribly bent tines and rusted-out spots where the vinyl coating had been stripped away. I considered replacing it with a trash compactor, but the Dude talked me out of it based on resale questions down the road.

                        I do love my Bosch, though. It does a great job and is literally silent. It is also a great time-saver when we're hosting my son's family, which is about twice a month, getting us out of the kitchen and back to the lanai in record time. But all in all, I agree that for many of us, they're not a necessity.

                        I like the suggestion of a metal shop to repair QT's pans. Brilliant!

                        FYI - Most kids suck at washing dishes, IME. I really HATE pulling dirty dishes out of the cupboard. Yuck!

                        1. re: DuffyH

                          I loved my Bosch when I had it. We learned not to use dishwasher detergents or rinse agents with lemon. It messes up stainless flatware. I wonder if it corrodes aluminum.

                          I used a dishwasher for years and had no issues with my older Cuisinart Everyday Stainless cookware. I chose stainless with I was replacing my old pots because it could be dishwashed.

                          (And here I am again replacing the stuff I bought about 13 years ago.)

                          1. re: sueatmo

                            Hey sue,

                            I bought a Miele in '04 for the quiet, low water use and above all, the upper cutlery rack, which no one else had then. Problem was, it didn't dry well.

                            My fabulous rental ('08) in Wa. had a Bosch, but no upper rack. Quieter than the Miele, and got dishes really dry. I was really torn when I bought my new one here in Tampa. Loved the Bosch, but really wanted that cutlery rack. Color me happy when I found out that they'd copied the design. Score!

                            <(And here I am again replacing the stuff I bought about 13 years ago.)>

                            And aren't we having some fun doing it!!

                              1. re: DuffyH

                                Here is my latest acquisition:

                                http://tinyurl.com/mykyohj Sitram Profiserie Rondeau, 7.6-quart

                                1. re: sueatmo

                                  I love my Sitram Profiserie pieces.

                                  1. re: Leepa

                                    I like my Profiserie chef's pan so well, I decided to buy a bigger pot for chili and braising.

                          2. re: kaleokahu

                            Hi Kaleokahu,

                            I often laugh at myself as I rinse, sort and strategically load the dishwasher, imagining my MIL from the old country standing over me and saying "My dear, I could have washed all that by now!"

                            My long seasoned cast iron pans and enameled dutch oven are taken care of by hand, and now I know I'll have to do the same with these pans. But I would be lying if I said I don't appreciate my dishwasher and would love to have good cookware that is truly dishwasher safe.

                            Now I am looking for a machine shop. Thank you for the suggestion.

                            1. re: QueensTomato

                              Hi, QT:

                              You're very welcome.

                              A handy person with a file and some emery cloth (or an angle grinder) could manage it, too.

                              The big appeal of a DW is mental--its owner *feels* as if they're freed from drudgery, even if it's not so.

                              Aloha,
                              Kaleo

                              1. re: kaleokahu

                                Hi kaleo,

                                For me, there's a definite benefit to having a capable dishwasher. Our recent addition (a KA model) has shown me that technology HAS improved the breed. I no longer rinse my dishes, only scrape off the chunks into the sink disposer, as the new beast will clean dried yogurt, eggs, sauces, etc witout blinking. (Does my new KA blink? I'll have to check.) I no longer soak & scrub baked-on Pyrex, as the new beast has a surprisingly effective 'pot-scrubber' mode. I don't even have to be very concerned about loading any more, as my spouse loads completely wrong (isn't always the spouse who does it wrong?) and yet the new beast disgorges clean load after clean load.

                                Besides removing all of these prior restrictions, it uses FAR less water than I ever could washing by hand.

                                The single drawback I can think of is the extra time it takes to actually perform its washing task. It's much longer than I would take, and much longer than the old goat it replaced. But, y'know, I'm off doing other things while it's washing, so I really don't care! I might be having a 2nd glass of wine, or watching TV, or sleeping, or maybe even working on knives....

                                Overall, for me, the new beast is a definite 'win'!

                                1. re: Eiron

                                  Hi, Eiron: "...it uses FAR less water than I ever could washing by hand."

                                  This is interesting. Do you know how much water a cycle takes? The way *I* handwash is basically two 2-gallon tubs, one for wash and another for rinse. Occasionally, I'll refill the rinse tub if the rinse water gets cloudy. Does the KA use less than 4G/cycle?

                                  Yes, the technology continues to advance. Miele now has a model that Reidel has approved for washing its stemware, but it requires Miele's proprietary ($$$) detergent, and I still shudder at the thought.

                                  Re: baked-on crud, I have the pressure washer ready right off the back porch. One pull and I'm up to 3000psi. ;)

                                  Aloha,
                                  Kaleo

                                  1. re: kaleokahu

                                    Hi Kaleo,

                                    <Re: baked-on crud, I have the pressure washer ready right off the back porch. One pull and I'm up to 3000psi. ;)>

                                    When I read this tonight, I thought it was brilliant! Simply brilliant.

                                    There are still a few wrinkles in my technique*, so I hope you'll describe in detail how you do it.

                                    First, is the pan supposed to skate across the patio into the pool?

                                    Second, if it *is* supposed to do that, shouldn't you have mentioned that this shouldn't be done with a clear glass pan?

                                    Third, will you please call my grandsons and explain to them that they'll be able to swim again as soon as Nana drains the pool and fishes out the shattered glass?

                                    Thank you so much,
                                    Duffy

                                    * By "technique" I mean that this is the way I imagine the whole thing proceeding in Duffyland. ;)

                                    1. re: DuffyH

                                      Hi, Duffy:

                                      You're wicked, but I admire your whimsy. At the risk of channeling Red Green, let me say this:

                                      It is possible, with a cheap pan, to bend it like Beckham through a neighbor's window in a certain class of neighborhood. I have not run the ballistics, but at 3000 psi on a low-friction surface, I think a light skillet might make 20-30 feet downrange, with an elevation of a few feet. More or less, depending on handle mass and Bournouli effect.

                                      Let me also say this: Pools are for those with bad beaches.

                                      Finally, I refuse to believe someone in the Spring of Life can have grandchildren...

                                      Aloha,
                                      Kaleo

                                      1. re: kaleokahu

                                        Kaleo,

                                        <Let me also say this: Pools are for those with bad beaches.>

                                        "There are 2 kinds of people; beach people and pool people. I'm a pool person." - Loni Anderson

                                        Tampa's got some great beaches, but I'm with Loni, I hate sand. That's why boats have swim ladders. Ocean - good. Sand - bad.

                                        <Finally, I refuse to believe someone in the Spring of Life can have grandchildren...>

                                        Now you're just sucking up, but I like it. FWIW - I tell people who make similar comments that my son was my prom date. ;)

                                        Duffy

                                    2. re: kaleokahu

                                      Hey Kaleo,

                                      Me again. I looked up the specs on my Bosch. It uses ~2.25gal/cycle.

                                      1. re: DuffyH

                                        You're welcome any time, Duffy:

                                        2.5G? That's good. I was being a bit liberal at 4G (much as I like "infinity" pools, my 2G tubs never overfloweth). But it sounds like a rough parity, so I concede what I take to be points of *cost* and *ecology*. I leave it to you to compute the cost and the cost-benefit. Perhaps in sub-Saharan Africa or the Gobi there is a big difference.

                                        Aloha,
                                        Kaleo

                                        1. re: kaleokahu

                                          Kaleo,

                                          Yes absolutely, parity. I was really surprised to find out how little water the DW uses. I was thinking it was more like 4-5gal.

                                      2. re: kaleokahu

                                        kaleo,

                                        No, I don't know exactly how much water it takes. All of the information I can find says it's 4gal/cycle. However, my sink (where I would wash MY dishes) holds somewhere around 22 gal (both sides):

                                        http://www.rohlhome.com/Kitchen/Produ..."

                                        Since I'd probably fill it at least 2/3 full for washing/rinsing, I'm going to use a solid 15 gal of water to wash the same volume/number of dishes as my KA would do with a full load.

                                        The SMALL side of my sink holds 6.6 gal of water. I can't imagine how difficult it must be washing dishes in a partially filled 2 gal tub.

                                        The cocker spaniel we had was a great baked-on-crud-washer! Alas, he is no more...

                                        1. re: Eiron

                                          Elron,

                                          I'm with Kaleo on using small basins to wash dishes. When I'm hand washing, I put my largest dirty bowl or pot in one sink with soapy water, wash everything, placing the soaped/washed items in my other sink. Finally, I spray rinse everything and move them to the drying rack. Not quite as water-wise as Kaleo's 2 tubs, but very easy, not at all difficult.

                                          The biggest pot I use is an 8qt SS DO, and I fill it about 2/3rds full. I can wash a whole bunch of stuff using my 4.5qt saucepan as my wash basin. I don't get where this should be hard to do.

                                          Dude likes to use the sink for a wash basin, but I think that's just wasting water. He likes to put everything into the sudsy sink. I don't see the need for that.

                                          Sadly, our cats aren't very good at washing plates for us; they only clean the parts they like.

                                          1. re: DuffyH

                                            DuffyH,

                                            I understand. If I were going to do this, I'd fill the large side with enough soapy water to wash everything, & fill the small side with enough water to rinse everything. Assuming I could cover it all, maybe 1/2 full on each side would be good enough? But that's still 11 gal.

                                            Here's the part count from the last load we ran:
                                            10 plates
                                            14 bowls
                                            16 cups
                                            8 pet food bowls
                                            4 pcs of Tupperware (+ lids)
                                            30 pcs of flatware/utensils

                                            If my dishwasher does all of this with 4 gal of water, that's better than what I'm going to achieve doing it by hand.

                                            Also, I'm still going to do most of the same steps kaleo outlined above (scrape, pre-rinse, sort, load, add detergent, unload) when I'm washing by hand.

                                            For me, the dishwasher definitely saves both time & water.
                                            But I completely understand that not everybody feels the same way.

                                            1. re: Eiron

                                              Hey Elron,

                                              I am completely in your camp about the time and water saving. As I wrote, mine uses about 2.5 gallons per load. No way can I beat that hand washing more than a few pieces.

                                              I'm with Kaleo on the tub vs sink debate for those times when I do hand wash, which is at least once a day, often twice a day.

                                              1. re: DuffyH

                                                Yeah, I REALLY wanted the Bosch! (More water-conserving AND energy efficient!)

                                                The only consolation I have is that the KA holds more pieces than the Bosch, so I only run it about once every four days. I think that (somewhat) offsets its 1.5 gal increase over the Bosch.

                                                At least, that's what my OCD is telling me.... ;-)

                                  2. re: QueensTomato

                                    As kaleo suggested, you don't need to find an actual machine shop. A neighbor with a belt sander would be just as beneficial.

                                    I actually did this to a *new* All-Clad Copper Core pan that I bought. It was a 2nd from TJMaxx. AC must've stopped finish-work on the pan when they deemed it a 2nd, as the edges were surprisingly sharp! A few minutes of very light, careful edge sanding with my 1" belt was all it took to make everything safe & rounded. You can get these machines for less than $50.

                                    1. re: Eiron

                                      It looks like the "handy person with a file and some emery cloth" will have to be me.

                                      Since fingernail files and emery boards probably won't do for this task, I see a trip to the hardware store in my future.