90308 Tue Jan 28 17:41:37 -0800 2003 19 5 Texas 0 496086 I was reading somewhere that Perry's list's that their steaks are Prime Black Angus? Is this true? And if it is true that it does serve black angus, does it piss you off that they would try to suggest that the meat they are selling is USDA Prime? Tue Jan 28 17:41:37 -0800 2003 0 John Scar 1 496088 Black Angus is a breed of bovine, not a rating of beef's marbling or overall quality. I don't know what Perry's serves, but it very well could be Prime, Black Angus beef. Tue Jan 28 18:17:23 -0800 2003 496086 0 Greg Spence 2 496091 Certified Black Angus chooses not to participate in the USDA program from what I understand. CAB considers their product to be of Choice quality. Not a bad product but certainly not USDA Prime. Wed Jan 29 09:57:06 -0800 2003 496088 0 John Scar 2 496092 No, the term "Certified Black Angus" on a restaurant menu or advertisement refers to a beef marketing program. After the USDA "broadened" (which is putting it mildly) its standards for Prime and Choice grades in 1976, some beef producers (e.g., the American Angus Association - breeders of Angus cattle who produce the Certified Angus Beef program) and other organizations (e.g., Beefmaster Cattlemen who produce Nolan Ryan's All Natural Aged Gourmet Beef and Tender Aged Beef programs) established beef marketing programs to counter the wide variation in USDA beef grading and, ostensibly, give consumers an ability to determine higher quality USDA graded beef. Each program has its own specific specifications to be in that particular program, some much more stringent than others in regards to USDA grading, marbling (amount and texture), maturity, fat thickness, muscling, and various other carcass characteristics (e.g., visible hemorrhage and dark areas, hump height, etc.). The USDA also provides certification of beef carcasses for a number of these marketing programs making claims concerning breed of cattle and carcass characteristics required to be included in each program. As mentioned by Mr. Scar below, Certified Black Angus program apparently does not participate in the USDA certification program. Although some Angus beef programs MAY include the lower USDA Prime graded beef in its programs (e.g., American Food Group Black Angus Reserve Prime, Certified Angus Beef, Simplot Premium Black Angus Beef, Sysco Butcher's Block Angus Beef, Quality Plus Angus Beef, etc.), the vast majority of better program beef will be the upper 2/3 portion of USDA Choice (and some beef graded as low as the upper portion of USDA Select in several beef programs). In any event, it is very highly unlikely for a restaurant using program beef to purchase nothing but USDA Prime graded beef (if not impossible unless the program is American Food Group Black Angus Reserve Prime which requires USDA Prime for its program, but only the higher end steakhouses participate in this program and they advertise their steaks unequivocally as Prime). Furthermore, the Certified Black Angus program requirements in particular do not include USDA Prime graded beef. I must admit to being rather surprised that someone who considers himself to be a barbecue expert and has a barbecue catering business does not know about beef marketing programs and their relation to the USDA beef grading system. Wed Jan 29 10:58:40 -0800 2003 496088 0 Cow Boy 3 496093 Sorry, I don't see the word "certified" in John's original post. I did mention that I didn't know about Perry's. Nevertheless, I stand by my answer that a Black Angus beef can produce prime beef. I'll add that not all ranches producing Black Angus beef participate in the "certified" program. BTW, what's your beef with me? Is that you again, Mesquite? Wed Jan 29 11:11:19 -0800 2003 496092 0 Greg Spence 4 496094 In fairness to Greg, I did leave off the certified part. Still the question is does that make you mad that a restaurant (Perry's isn't the only one, Taste of Texas is another and they charge very near prime price)tries to fool you? Wed Jan 29 11:15:06 -0800 2003 496093 0 John Scar 3 496097 You might want to check the CAB website, which states that there is a CAB "prime" designation. And while I am sure Mr. Spence can take care of himself, I think we should try to avoid ad hominems on this board. Link: http://www.certifiedangusbeef.com/cab/product/grades.html Wed Jan 29 11:55:24 -0800 2003 496092 0 Kirk 4 496099 Wrong -- well, while what you said is correct, the Certified Angus Beef program (which I DID mention in my earlier post as having USDA Prime included in its program) is NOT the same program as the Certified BLACK Angus Beef program which I stated does not participate in the USDA certification program nor does its requirements include USDA Prime graded carcasses. There are more than a dozen beef marketing programs with "Angus" in their name. They are all different with different requirements, including varying genotype and phenotype requirements. As for your comment about "ad hominems," I simply stated my true surprise that a Texas barbecue guy (based on his many previous postings about this subject exhibiting knowledge in this area) would not immediately recognize that a restaurant stating that it used "Black Angus" beef exclusively (with or without the "Certified" designation) was referring to a beef marketing program and not simply the breed. Sorry that anyone took offense; I didn't realize that I must walk on eggshells here. And, no, I am not Mesquite -- I had to do a search on that name on this page to discover to what/who Mr. Spence was referring. Wed Jan 29 12:47:14 -0800 2003 496097 0 Cow Boy 5 496104 No one is saying that you have to walk on egg shells, Cow Boy. But I think the rules of the road on chowhound.com generally state that it is OK to disagree about (or even "disrespect") foods, restaurants, chefs and food-related personalities, but we keep our sidearms pointed away from others on the board. Wed Jan 29 13:39:21 -0800 2003 496099 0 Kirk 6 496115 Thanks for playing the peacemaker here, Kirk. Now that we've been given a night to let all of this non-food nonsense rest, I would like to make one last statement about my response(s). I think it's safe to assume that every 'hound knows about beef marketing programs. What some hounds may not know is that Black Angus was a breed long before it was a marketing program. Not knowing Perry's, and not seeing the words "certified" or "exclusive" in John's original post, I was attempting (I hope successfully, now) to point out that the mention of the breed did not necessarily indicate that a restaurant was serving beef certified by a marketing program. In the past, many Texas steakhouses served beef from a single (often same-family owned) producer. While not many of these realtionships exsist now, there are still a few around. I was kind of hoping that Perry's might be the restaurant end of one of these relationships. I apoligize to anyone who was confused by my lack of clarity. Thu Jan 30 09:29:17 -0800 2003 496104 0 Greg Spence 7 496116 I to appologize for my lack of clarity on my original post. And I guess my question should not have been directed towards one post, yet to the industry as a whole. Some restaurants tell their employees that the beef the sell is "prime" when in fact it is not. I'm not 100% positive but I would think that just about any breed of cattle could potentially be graded USDA Prime. Is that a correct assumption? Thu Jan 30 09:42:43 -0800 2003 496115 0 John Scar 8 496118 That's absolutely correct. Thu Jan 30 10:26:23 -0800 2003 496116 0 Greg Spence 7 496122 "(E)very 'hound knows about beef marketing programs?" I think not. I'd be willing to bet that more people are aware of the names of breeds (e.g., Angus, Hereford, etc.) than they are of what beef marketing programs really are (and the differences between them). The confusion and lack of knowledge exhibited by posters in this string tends to prove my assertion. In fact, I am not convinced that you understood what a claim of serving "Black Angus" steaks by a restaurant means today. When a breed is mentioned, it DOES most certainly indicate "that (the) restaurant was serving beef certified by a marketing program." Just name a restaurant or steakhouse that exists today that makes a claim about the breed of cattle from which its steaks are derived that is not referring to a beef marketing program. Also, there are a lot of people who assume that all references to "Angus" beef programs are referring to the same program (e.g., Kirk thought the Certified Angus Beef program was the same as the Certified Black Angus program), not realizing that there are at least a dozen beef programs with "Angus" in their names - all different and with different requirements. Also, as a further point of clarification, Perry's Grille and Steak House (as I just discovered) is a member of the Certified Angus Beef Association, not the Certified Black Angus program (which also demonstrates the confusion most people have about beef marketing programs). Thu Jan 30 11:27:03 -0800 2003 496115 0 Cow Boy 8 496128 Again "Cow Boy," you seem to be exhibiting a personal dislike for me. Fortunately, it neither my purpose or intent to proove anything to you personally. If you would like to continue your personal attacks, please email me at the address provided. No need to subject these kind folks to this nonsense. Thu Jan 30 13:07:37 -0800 2003 496122 0 Greg Spence 9 496131 Peace out, Bruthas. I'm outta here. Thu Jan 30 14:12:36 -0800 2003 496128 0 Kirk 9 496152 It seems that personal insecurities may be coloring your perceptions. I, for one, see no personal attacks in Cow Boy's messages. As my Daddy used to say, son, you need to get that burr out from under your saddle and focus on the job at hand. Sat Feb 01 12:06:00 -0800 2003 496128 0 Monte 6 496117 No worries, mate. If and when I go gunning for someone, you will surely know it - I don't point my guns at anyone without every intention of using them. Thu Jan 30 10:09:55 -0800 2003 496104 0 Cow Boy 6 496125 This is one of the reasons I love these boards - I learn knew things all the time. While I'm no genius, I do know about a lot of things, particularly food related - since food is a definite passion/obsession for me. I have purchased and consumed plenty of Black Angus over the years and I didn't know anything about these marketing programs and their variations. I have found all the posts on this subject, including Cow Boy's, very interesting and informative. I don't really think he overstepped any boundaries - I rather enjoy the occasional edge in a post as long as it stays within the boundaries of being civil - which I think he did. And the other poster clarified his inital post, too. All's well that ends well... Thu Jan 30 12:24:53 -0800 2003 496104 0 LindaH 1 3590283 Perry's did sell "high-end" CHOICE (very close to Prime) up until about 18 months ago from what I have been told (regular customer at The Woodlands location)...Now it is 100% Prime (as graded by the USDA). I grew up on a farm and have a degree in Agricultural Business (took a Meats class in college where we were tested on grading cuts of beef as part of the class). Many times there is a fine line btwn Choice and Prime and it will get graded as Choice if there is any question. Trust me, that cut will typically pass for Prime. Bottom line, my source (friend in senior leadership position at Perry's) confirms they are 100% Prime. Sun Apr 13 14:05:51 -0700 2008 496086 183247 falcon75 2 3591030 I didn't think the Perry's in Houston and Dallas were affiliated? Sun Apr 13 19:13:49 -0700 2008 3590283 64351 ieatdallas