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I give God 10%...

...why should you get 18?

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/...

Probably because god did not fill the water glasses.

Cheap...

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  1. What's wrong with being cheap? You say it like it's a bad thing.

    103 Replies
      1. re: olyolyy

        Being frugal is not bad. Being cheap is.

        1. re: juliejulez

          What's the difference between thrifty and cheap? Thrifty is when you save money. Cheap is when other people save money.

          1. re: RealMenJulienne

            thrifty is making the most of your dollars.

            Cheap is making it someone else's problem.

            1. re: sunshine842

              Sunshine, that is the perfect definition of the difference between the two. Thanks....I am going to use this in the future.

            2. re: olyolyy

              If he really wanted to save money he should eat at home.

              1. re: olyolyy

                I went out for lunch with a really cheap friend the other day. The bill came to $16.04. We'd eaten the same thing, and I put $10 in for my half, figuring we'd round up to $20.

                He couldn't do it. He *had* to take back 50 cents.

                Cheap or thrifty? Discuss.

                1. re: Jay F

                  Well, $4 for $16 is more than 20% :) And since you don't want the extra money, he wants it.

                  1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                    Jay F
                    your "friend" is really cheap.
                    i would never go to a restaurant with him unless i intended to subsidize him.
                    i'd be too embarassed to be associated with anyone like that.

                      1. re: Jay F

                        when i'm in a position where i must deal with people like that in a restaurant, i normally tell them:
                        "let me pay the tip, you just give me X dollars for the tab"
                        and i SPECIFY at that moment what the dollar amount must be.
                        if they state that they were going to put it on a credit card, then just be sure to pay the tip yourself (preferably in cash) and WATCH to make sure the cheapskate doesn't filch the tip from the table before the server picks it up.

                        1. re: westsidegal

                          Where I live, it is possible to get separate checks, so I'm planning to do that from now on.

                          1. re: Jay F

                            If I'm following this correctly he left an 18% tip. This is not that egregious to me. Folks are acting like he stiffed the waiter.

                            1. re: kengk

                              I believe he crossed out the 18% and left 0%.

                              1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                I'm talking about Jay F's friend but I may be confused.

                                1. re: kengk

                                  Oh yeah. You are correct. Actually, I believe it is more than 20% (21.57%).

                                  $19.5 for a bill of $16.04. So the difference is $3.46.

                                  1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                    His tip was 1.48 on a bill of 8.02. Isn't that 15.5%?

                                    1. re: Jay F

                                      <His tip was 1.48 on a bill of 8.02. Isn't that 15.5%?>

                                      Oh I see what you are thinking now. I was thinking that your total combined bill is $16.04 and together you left $19.50, which means it was a $3.46 for the total bill of $16.04 (~$20%).

                                      You are thinking more like he paid $9.50 for a bill of $8.02, so he left $1.48 for his $8.02 bill -- which is 18.5%.

                                      The waiter or waitress would not notice anything unusual (a $19.50 payment for a $16.04 bill). So effectively speaking, you feel you are the one who get the short end of the stick?

                                      1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                        Sort of. I just thought it was such a cheap gesture. Who takes back .50?

                                          1. re: olyolyy

                                            Trust me, he doesn't *need* it.

                                            1. re: Jay F

                                              I just think that it is very difficult to accurately judge people too much based on tips. It is just that and nothing more.

                                              All of us have different priority in life, and we live differently. Sometime people need that couples of quarters for tolls. I know a friend in graduate school. He was not a big tipper, but he was a very generous person toward homeless. He spent time and money toward them. Whatever food he could not finish, he gave it to homeless, and he even asked other people (who we don't know on a different table) if he could take their left over food to give it to homeless. On the other hand, he must have fought with numerous waitresses about tips and discounts. It was always very awkward to eat with him because I would be in the middle of these fights. After those fights he won't left any tip, and also told me not to leave any tip.

                                              Yet, I cannot never say he is cheap person based on all the other tremendously generous things he has done. I believe after our graduate school he joined those "XYZ Global Food Club" for awhile.

                                              1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                                I've been reading this thread, and I am finally piping in to say how refreshing I find your perspective. The friend tipped enough; I don't see how picking up two quarters gets him the label "cheap". Quirky, perhaps, but not cheap, and certainly not worthy of the condemnation he's received in these parts. Even if he doesn't give to the homeless or some other wonderful thing, the fact is that he fulfilled his financial obligation.

                                                I think sometimes people take a bit too much pride in being generous. I am not criticizing generosity, but I would argue that excessive pride in it (and condemnation of others who don't see each transaction as a way to prove their generosity) is as 'quirky' as picking up two quarters as change.

                                                    1. re: Cachetes

                                                      I have no judgement other than to say that I was taught by my mother who worked in food service and/or was a bartender most of her life that it is considered bad manners to ever take back the coins or change.

                                                      True/not true?

                                                      1. re: splatgirl

                                                        bills, are ok, change not really. (I'm not going to pay a $4.50 drink with a $20 and leave it all). at the bar and not a table $1.50 seems a bit high for a tip and .50 far too low. I'd probably average the tip when the tab came due if I'm there for a few.

                                                        1. re: hill food

                                                          I was referring to coins exclusively.

                                                          1. re: splatgirl

                                                            I thought so, but 'change' and 'coins' sometimes get used the same.

                                                            I like the habit I've only seen in neighborhood bars in NYC, if you're planning on staying a while, at a no-tab kinda place, you put a pile of cash on the bar directly in front of you (enough for about how long you plan on staying) and as each drink is paid for the tip is pushed to the tender's side. very clear which funds are which.

                                                            1. re: hill food

                                                              I see this practice often at several places I am a regular. I find it uncouth. They are usually fine running a tab at most places, which is my preference. Otherwise, if a place requires a card when I place my order, then that is acceptable. The cash in front of the patron just seems tacky to me.

                                                              1. re: MonMauler

                                                                at first I did too, but there is a certain louche charm. this was witnessed back in the days before ATM's and plastic were ubiquitous in places where folks, ok guys mostly, had X amount to get plastered and no more or the kids would go hungry. (and by NYC I didn't mean most of the Manhattan we know today - think B'n'T)

                                                                and it does give the bartender a clue as to how long the customer intends to be there and what sort of tips to expect as the stack dwindles. it is old-school.

                                                                1. re: hill food

                                                                  I guess I see the charm in it a little bit, too. You're right: it is old-school. Now, the places I see this practice most often employed are mostly dives. I can definitely appreciate the quaint charm in someone laying a few bills down on the bar and drinking until all that's left is the tip, but I've never been able to do it myself. I try to show a little more decorum and at least pretend to be more respectable than that.

                                                                  1. re: MonMauler

                                                                    ha!, yes outside of a dive, it would be tacky.

                                                                  2. re: hill food

                                                                    I try to avoid using plastic for dinners / drinks when the owner is a friend because of the fees the owner gets hit with. Same for my auto mechanic or anybody else who does a job for me. Everyone seems to prefer cash. At bars though I do prefer a tab for many reasons, one being turning my back on my pile and having it vanish.

                                                                2. re: hill food

                                                                  "I like the habit I've only seen in neighborhood bars in NYC, if you're planning on staying a while, at a no-tab kinda place, you put a pile of cash on the bar directly in front of you (enough for about how long you plan on staying) and as each drink is paid for the tip is pushed to the tender's side. very clear which funds are which."

                                                                  I like it too. It was pretty much the practice in the bars I cut my teeth on in Reading, PA. I am always cool with it when I find a bartender who gets it. It's also fine with me when they leave the pile, take out for each drink/round, and let me tip in total at the end (they probably make out better that way, as I have been "lubricated" by that point).

                                                                  As to picking up change off the bar, I had been told by some older guys I drank with professionally*, that taking change (coins) off the bar was bad luck. I thought it was a tolerable concept. I mean at the end of the night, what do you save 95 cents? If you're drinking something that isn't priced in round numbers, leaving the coins makes it easier for the bartender to extract the cost of the next drink.

                                                                  *Seasoned, white shoe lawyers, not guys who got paid to drink - though if anyone is looking for the latter, call me.

                                                                  1. re: MGZ

                                                                    not guys who got paid to drink - though if anyone is looking for the latter, call me........

                                                                    escort side job? I'll join you.

                                                                    1. re: fourunder

                                                                      besides, drinking alone is what homes are made for not bars...

                                                            2. re: splatgirl

                                                              I do not know about the truth, or falsehood, but know that I do not like coins, in general, and try to find some repository for them. All I need is a forgotten penny in my pocket in the TSA line!

                                                              When I was much younger, I had a 5 gal. jug for coins. Nowadays, I have a small bank, and it only has about 10 in it, over the last 5 years. Now, I DO have to get bills broken for parking meters, but that is about it.

                                                              As I most often tip on a credit card, should I end up with ANY coins, they go to the server, or to charity box on the counter. I cannot recall the last time that I had any US coins in my pocket.

                                                              Hunt

                                                              1. re: Bill Hunt

                                                                in my town, even the parking meters take credit cards.
                                                                we're catching up to you!

                                                        2. re: Jay F

                                                          Probably cause he's so thrifty (;

                                                      2. re: Jay F

                                                        i knew someone who did this too, except he would generously distribute the 'excess' tip to others as well.

                                                        i see him, sometimes with his wife, at the grocery store & wonder if any woman has been able to break him of this since i knew him.

                                                        i knew someone else who said to be a good person you must serve time in either retail or food service. i think all these reverse tippers need some personal experience.

                                                        1. re: foiegras

                                                          I'm so with that idea. From my time spent in food service, and all my friends who have and are still waiting tables, I've become a very generous tipper. They definitely work hard for the money. *insert Donna Summer tune here* ;o)

                                    2. re: westsidegal

                                      p.s. Jay F
                                      this very situation just happened to me yesterday.
                                      a friend was taking me out to lunch for my birthday.
                                      i suspected this friend was too cheap to treat the server fairly, so at the very end of the meal i tucked some additional cash into the little plastic "payment folder" that the restaurants use to transport people's credit cards and payments to and from the register.
                                      sure enough, i saw that she was intending to leave a tip of $2 for a tab of $32. i'm so glad that i stepped in on this situation.

                                        1. re: westsidegal

                                          That was very nice of you. I have certain friends that are the same way. I make it clear to them that if the service was good, its 20% or find somebody else to go out with. Some have chosen to do just that which is fine by me.

                                          1. re: westsidegal

                                            That was my grandfather. My nana would whisper to my husband and slip him the appropriate amount to place in the folio.

                                      1. re: Jay F

                                        Did he actually wait until the server brought change so he could take his 50 cents back? If so, really cheap. Otherwise, just cheap.

                                        1. re: gaffk

                                          No, but only because I happened to have change for a $10 bill. And I always carry quarters for parking. Otherwise, yes, he would have waited for the change to come back.

                                          1. re: mamachef

                                            Isn't it something? I haven't talked to him since. It really bothers me. I'm going to ask for separate checks from now on (you can do that in Pittsburgh; I never heard of it in DC).

                                            1. re: Jay F

                                              places in DC do it all the time, most will split CC all around, part cash, part CC, whatever.

                                          2. re: Jay F

                                            Cheap

                                            I experienced similar several months ago. I can't remember the amount but it was well under a $1. My lunch companion sort of made a big deal about wanting her change and I thought "really, you can't throw a little extra towards the teen girl waiting tables?"

                                            (I know my companion to be very financially secure, it wasn't about needing that change)

                                            I come from a family of thirft and frugal people. I know the difference between valuing money and being stingy/mean/miserly.

                                            1. re: cleobeach

                                              My friend never stops talking about how cheap he is. It is a badge of honor for him. I actually said to him, "You know they only make $1.75 an hour, don't you?" He said he knew. He still *had* to take back the .50.

                                              1. re: Jay F

                                                Wow. Yeah, this one is CHEAP. And thinking it's a badge of honor compounds the issue.

                                                Curious - is he married? I can't see how this "feature" of his would attract anyone.

                                                1. re: LindaWhit

                                                  I was thinking the same thing! I have a friend who is much like Jay F's friend. I remember when he invited us over for a dinner and movie party. He actually had a clipboard with a list of peoples' names, what they ate, and the current amount (constantly subject to increases, of course!) that they owed! I wish I was joking!

                                                  Yup - he's actually married now. What a catch! ;o)

                                                      1. re: mamachef

                                                        Yup! We're still pals to this day although I never accept an invitation to come over! LOL!

                                                      2. re: Sra. Swanky

                                                        He invited you over and expected you to pay for what you ate? Wow. I'm sure even my friend isn't that cheap.

                                                        1. re: Jay F

                                                          Yup. Sad, isn't it? Funny postscript: My hubby and I made a quick escape out of his garage to evade our "bill!" LOL!!!

                                                          He recently lost a bet with my husband. He now owes him a steak dinner at Peter Luger. I say he'll pay up when hell freezes over! :)

                                                        2. re: Sra. Swanky

                                                          So he charged his guests who weren't savvy enough to escape through the garage, eh? It's a wonder he has any friends at all!

                                                        3. re: LindaWhit

                                                          No, he's not married. I asked him at the same meal how his last husband had dealt with his miserliness, and he told me his husband was even cheaper.

                                                          1. re: Jay F

                                                            LOL! Well, like minds attraction, I guess. :-D

                                                            1. re: LindaWhit

                                                              Normally, I would have called him today to see if he wanted to have lunch. Somehow, I just haven't been able to make myself pick up the phone after the last lunch.

                                                              He's been a good friend for a number of years, so I don't want to fire him, especially because he's been going through a very hard time lately (emotionally, not financially). He's been talking about suicide, and I suppose if anyone could do it, it is he. So a "divorce" is not feasible at the moment.

                                                              1. re: Jay F

                                                                Understood. I suspect that he's a good friend in others ways, and this is something you look at as "just part of him."

                                                    1. re: Jay F

                                                      I'll apparently be the lone dissenter here. I'm financially secure, like you're friend, and although I'm not a bad tipper, typically run 17 - 25%, I also don't hesitate to take back some change on a small bill. The logic of the waitress can use that money more than I can doesn't really work for me, otherwise, what's the limit? She could also use the $20 in my wallet much more than I can, but none of us are handing that over.

                                                      For example, the bill is $7.25 and I get change of $12.75 for my $20? I have no issue taking back $10.75 and leaving $2.00.

                                                      I certainly don't see an issue here that should cause you to re-evaluate your friendship or wonder what poor, unfortunate woman would marry him.

                                                      1. re: FattyDumplin

                                                        If I were waiting for change from a $20 on $7.25, I probably would leave $2, too. I mean, I'm waiting for change anyway.

                                                        If I'd left a $10 on 7.25, however, I probably would've told her to keep the change. Somehow it seems chintzier on a $10 check.

                                                        In the case of the meal I'm talking about, it was $20 on $16.04. A tip of $3.96 on $20, or $1.98 on $10. About the same as the $2 you'd've left on your theoretical $7.25. So you might very well not have insisted upon .50 in change.

                                                        Oh, and he's gay. No unfortunate women need apply.

                                                        1. re: Jay F

                                                          Oh, and he's gay. ,,,,

                                                          Not sure of the relevance, but I'm pretty sure most realized that when you stated ....

                                                          *and he told me his husband was even cheaper.*

                                                          1. re: fourunder

                                                            Fatty Dumpling wondered why I was concerned with "what poor, unfortunate woman would marry him." That's all.

                                                            1. re: Jay F

                                                              Sorry, I missed that .....on a story of a gay man from the late 60's that used to hang out in my father's restaurant......a mature woman in her 70's at the time knew he was gay, but still proposed they married, as she did not want to die alone and without companionship in her final years. He agreed to marry her and be by her side as long as he received all her assets in her will, i.e., the sole beneficiary.....She agreed, they were married.......and she hung on for another 25 years.

                                                              There's someone for everyone.

                                                              1. re: Jay F

                                                                Sorry, Jay, I may have been referring to someone else's post downstream about their cheap friend. I just think this isn't something I'd really judge someone on. It's really a personal choice and as long as you're within social norms for tipping, I'd say it's irrelevant nor a source of judgement whether you leave that last 50 cents or whatever.

                                                              2. re: fourunder

                                                                I think the relevance is that FattyDumplin said at the end of their post "... or wonder what poor, unfortunate woman would marry him."

                                                                1. re: LindaWhit

                                                                  Linda, actually as I reread posts, I realized a) my comment was directed at your post and b) I had misread your post. Your comment about marriage potential had more to do with the pride of being cheap as apposed to being cheap. I agree with you on that, so apologies. Again, I don't think being cheap, in and of itself, is a bad thing, it's just how one values money. But I do think that being proud of being cheap takes it a bit far...

                                                                  1. re: FattyDumplin

                                                                    No problem, FD. And I was actually referring to both,. But the pride in being cheap seems to cheapen (for lack of a better word) any thriftiness Jay's friend might think he has.

                                                                    I mean, everyone boasts about getting "a great deal" on a car, sweater, a handbag, a lawn mower, set of power tools, a flat screen TV. But the taking back of 50 cents for a tip *and* bragging about it (or other cheap things) seems to be nitpicking and beyond stingy (to me).

                                                                    But, as noted, Jay's friend's ex-husband was even cheaper than Jay's friend. So like minds....

                                                                    1. re: LindaWhit

                                                                      The thing about being cheap, you have to watch out you don't raise kids who become spenders because you drove them so crazy the first 18 years of their lives with your brand-X soda or, in my brother's case, a timer for how long he was allowed to stay in the shower before my father started banging on doors and walls.

                                                                      Our father was a true scrooge when it came to pinching a penny.

                                                                      I have always had a near antipathy for anything that might have a better version. I always want what I perceive as the best, within the limits of affordability, but limits that would have driven my father crazy.

                                                                      My brother leaves lights on and the water running, he has told me, "because I can." He used to delight in doing these things every time my father came to visit him.

                                                                      I used to break out the Parmigiano-Reggiano when cooking for my father later in life. I never tired of letting him see the price sticker.

                                                                      Long story short, if you're a cheapskate, think about how it may affect your children.

                                                                      1. re: Jay F

                                                                        truly, being that cheap, to me is a form of mental illness.
                                                                        the problem is that the children of mentally ill people are at the parent's mercy until they are old enough and competent enough to fly the coop.

                                                                        1. re: westsidegal

                                                                          That's what I've been thinking about this situation. Sometimes there are compulsions beyond a person's control, like waiting for the .50 change.

                                                                        2. re: Jay F

                                                                          I can so relate to what you are saying about the effects of cheapness on kids. My dad was very cheap. He thought 10% was a generous tip and even though he was a lifelong church-going man, he didn't think that God needed 10% of his money.

                                                                          I was so embarrassed at the way he would split up checks, making sure that anytime we went out with others that people knew he wasn't paying for them, etc., having me buy birthday gifts for friends at the dollar store. I could go on and on. He was a wonderful man in many other ways but he was beyond frugal. To be fair, he endured some very traumatic events during WWII in Nazi-occupied Norway and had to work hard at a young age to help save the family farm and support his widowed mom. So I get why he was that way, but it still mortified me.

                                                                          One of the things that attracted me to Mr. jlh early on was his easy generosity. It is just a part of who he is and I love him for that.

                                                                          I will confess to having done some of the things that your brother did...keeping the lights on just because I could, being wasteful, etc. Thankfully, I think I have struck a reasonable balance finally.

                                                                          1. re: jlhinwa

                                                                            One of my ex-husbands good points was his fighting with my father over who would pay the tab for dinner. Actually I suppose they're still doing this since he and his current wife occasionally dine with my folks. However, I soon realized that while he was willing to pay the bill, he was happy to tip 10%. I finally, with his permission, took over the calculation of the tip at the end of the meal.

                                                                            1. re: tracylee

                                                                              "But Dad, it's MY turn to stiff the servers!"

                                                                              1. re: tracylee

                                                                                Ok the heck with who picked up the check explain how your ex and his current are still going out to eat with your parents??

                                                                                1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                  Hahaha, they'd alternate paying. The ex is 20 years older than I, not much younger than Mom, and they knew each other and many mutual friends through their work as Social Workers. Honestly, I've come to decide that he's really just a male version of my Mom! So, he and wife #6 meet them for dinner every now and then, and they're probably still arm wrestling for the bill.

                                                                                  I honestly have no problem with it.

                                                                                    1. re: splatgirl

                                                                                      Nope - he's been married all of his adult life - just to different women. Not my wisest choice.

                                                                                      1. re: tracylee

                                                                                        Yeah. I was going to ask how you ended up in that mix.

                                                                                        Good luck, and hope that the tip-thing gets sorted out.

                                                                                        Hunt

                                                                            2. re: Jay F

                                                                              Very true, all of it, JayF. And I think I'd probably have done exactly what your brother and you did. You didn't go WAY overboard in spending - but you showed your father you *could* with running water, electricity, and buying really good cheese. :-D

                                                                              1. re: LindaWhit

                                                                                Ironically, Linda, no one loved my Italian cooking more than my father. Well, except for my boyfriend at the time.

                                                                2. re: Jay F

                                                                  Cheap. But some people just are. If the friendship is worth it, you know what to expect if you eat out together.

                                                                3. re: olyolyy

                                                                  Bravo olyolyy, tell it like it is. We live in the most wasteful, indebted and over-consumptive society in the history of the human species. If a modern fellow American calls me cheap, I consider it the highest of compliments.

                                                                  This is a completely separate issue from stiffing someone on a tip. The server should of course get their due to make up for the restaurant industry's ridiculous wage paying practices.

                                                                  1. re: olyolyy

                                                                    being cheap to a server who depends on tips to pay for rent, food, insurance, etc. is despicable.
                                                                    in fact, the pastor didn't really give ANYTHING to god.
                                                                    may have contributed some money to a religious organization, but that is NOT giving money to god.
                                                                    the pastor is truly a liar who was looking for an excuse to avoid paying for the labor that was delivered by the server.
                                                                    self-rightous crap that masquerades as piety.

                                                                    1. re: westsidegal

                                                                      OK, I get your righteousness indignation. But you don't know what the "giving to God" means to the pastor, if indeed this incident took place as described. For the pastor, the tithe of 10% is a gift to God.

                                                                      I still think he or she is mean.

                                                                      1. re: sueatmo

                                                                        again, you are entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts.

                                                                        the money did NOT go to god.
                                                                        at best it went to some person or group of people that claim some connection to god.
                                                                        very different.
                                                                        and unless the pastor is schizophrenic, at base, she knows that this is a simple, bald face lie that she was trying to put over to excuse her larceny. she, the pastor, STOLE, the server's services and time. when you are waiting on a party of 20 people, basically that IS your entire shift.
                                                                        it is much more difficult to wait on one party of 20 than it is to wait on four tables of 5 people each. depending on the restaurant's standards and whether or not they provide you with extra help, the timing of getting the food out can be terrifying.
                                                                        the server will have no opportunity to try to make up for such a loss with tips from other tables made up of decent people.
                                                                        the server was ripped off pure and simple.

                                                                        the idea of using god to justify such cruelty and larceny is beyond disgusting.

                                                                        1. re: westsidegal

                                                                          With all due respect, I don't understand your anger on this point. We simply disagree.

                                                                          1. re: sueatmo

                                                                            apparently,
                                                                            you have never been in the position of being a server for a party of 20 that didn't tip.
                                                                            you especially weren't a server for this kind of party when you were supporting your family, or when you had to pay a car payment, or when you had to pay car or health insurance.

                                                                            the self righteous bullshit that was demonstrated by the pastor trying to cloak her greed with phony piety is enough to make me angry.

                                                                            any truly DECENT person would not decide to take a party of 20 to a restaurant with the intention of stiffing the server.
                                                                            only a truly despicable person would do such a thing.

                                                                            the fact that you aren't angry is mystifying to me.
                                                                            have you no sense of right and wrong?

                                                                            1. re: westsidegal

                                                                              No I am not angry. I've gotten the short end of the stick from time to time in life. I deplore anyone not tipping a server in any circumstances. In our culture, not tipping is unjust.

                                                                              I don't understand why you feel the pastor was not donating money to God, as she understands God. God has plainly said that He prefers mercy to sacrifice (worship). Obviously she isn't practicing mercy, but she believes she is contributing to God.

                                                                              As I said before, we simply disagree. And I do understand that this issue is personal for you.

                                                                              1. re: sueatmo

                                                                                It's literally impossible to give money to god. All you can do is give it to other people who purport to use it on behalf of god. But also, if you're a pastor, and you tithe ten percent to your church, aren't you just giving to yourself?

                                                                                1. re: Ruth Lafler

                                                                                  Yes and this has occurred to me. However plenty of people give to their churches feeling strongly that they are giving to God. I don't think this is a very exotic belief. It isn't my place, or yours, to impugn motives in this regard. I think I've been hard enough on the pastor.

                                                                                  1. re: sueatmo

                                                                                    Can I give your post a big LIKE!?

                                                                                    1. re: sueatmo

                                                                                      you may feel that you have been <<hard enough on the pastor>>
                                                                                      but i feel that i have NOT been hard enough on the "pastor."

                                                                                      her immoral actions toward the server and subsequent behavior demanding that the server be fired, to me, is evil.

                                                                                      her religious posturing is an independent factor that doesn't excuse her disgusting behavior.

                                                                                  2. re: sueatmo

                                                                                    it doesn't matter what "she believes" vs. a vs. god.
                                                                                    what matters is how she is using this line of crap to justify stealing from a server.
                                                                                    i'd even bet that she went in with the intention of stealing from the server.

                                                                      2. "The Reddit user who submitted the image explained in the comments section that the receipt was part of a total bill for a party of 20, which is why the gratuity was automatically added."
                                                                        ~~~~~~
                                                                        So the poor waiter had to dole out individual receipts to 20 people in the group and then deal with their individual payments? Oy.

                                                                        But either way - the "pastor" ended up paying the 18%, as it was auto-added. :-)

                                                                        5 Replies
                                                                        1. re: LindaWhit

                                                                          Actually it looks like they didn't pay the 18%. It shows the amount and then the 18%, but they crossed it out and wrote in just the amount,

                                                                          That's really unfair.

                                                                          1. re: LindaWhit

                                                                            LindaWhit:
                                                                            everone is entitled to their own opinion, but they are NOT entitled to their own facts.
                                                                            you are factually incorrect.
                                                                            the pastor, crossed out the 18% "automatic" tip and paid NOTHING for tip for a party of TWENTY PEOPLE.

                                                                            what a slimebag the pastor is.

                                                                            1. re: westsidegal

                                                                              actually, the articles are pretty clear that the automatic tip was included in the amount that was charged to the credit card.

                                                                              She paid it, but didn't realize it.

                                                                              1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                THANKFULLY.
                                                                                i feel better knowing this.
                                                                                thank you sunshine842.
                                                                                it hurts my heart when i hear of such things and you've made me feel better.

                                                                                1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                  Thanks sunshine842, for clarifying what is right there.

                                                                            2. I got fired from a server job because I refused to work the Wed. night after church shift. Everyone was required to work Sunday - no exceptions. That nonsense was pretty typical...

                                                                              A cheap person will use any excuse that comes their way.

                                                                              4 Replies
                                                                              1. re: meatn3

                                                                                Ugh sundays at the holiday inn were like that meatn3. Huge groups after church all dressed up, shameful tips. One group was notorious and the waitresses had to take turns waiting on them so no one would get totally screwed.
                                                                                I'm not even getting into the prayer groups that would sit at a big table off in the corner, just get coffee, and be upset if anyone had to be seated near them. Why why why?

                                                                                1. re: givemecarbs

                                                                                  Our Sundays were 14 hour days with barely a chance for a bathroom break let alone a chance to eat anything. Thank goodness for meal replacement drinks - only thing which kept me from fainting from hunger.

                                                                                  Wed. nights a huge young adult bible study group came in. Young kids were wandering unsupervised, even into the kitchen. Folks wandered from table to table then were furious that their food was served when their seat was unoccupied. Usually the tip at each table (for all of us, not just me) was the odd coins from their change. Even if you had decent tables earlier in the evening your night ended up in the hole. This group would stay and stay long past closing. They left the place a mess so cleaning your section took forever. If you had parts of your section clean for the night they would migrate to the clean tables and trash them too...so you had to start all over.

                                                                                  Management didn't care - these folks did pay their bills.

                                                                                  1. re: meatn3

                                                                                    Some people not only lack manners but also common sense.I think it is that sense of entitlement that drives people to acting like imbeciles in public places.No regard for their negative effect on others.

                                                                                    1. re: meatn3

                                                                                      Management obviously didn't care about their staff. Geez.

                                                                                2. Imagine if the diner in question had been an atheist.

                                                                                  2 Replies
                                                                                  1. re: ipsedixit

                                                                                    There are no doubt cheap athiests out there who would also try to get out of the tip. But they wouldnt use God as their excuse for doing so.

                                                                                    1. re: Fydeaux

                                                                                      but God is such an easy excuse. we can manipulate that idea (him/her/it, whatever) into anything! so convenient. and uhh a wussy cop-out.

                                                                                  2. Ok here is my take on this (I should add that I am in the industry) while adding a gratuity is common at most restaurants for large parties here is where I think the problem lays. The check in question is $34. which would indicate that the party of 20 people most likely requested separate checks.

                                                                                    Once the establishment accepted the request of separate checks than that party of 20 became 10 - 2 tops. The automatic gratuity doesn't apply to 2-tops a technicality yes, but I side with the customers being exempt from the auto gratuity.

                                                                                    22 Replies
                                                                                    1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                      Are you suggesting that large parties can bypass the automatic gratuity by requesting separate checks? That's just not logical.

                                                                                      1. re: PeterL

                                                                                        I know it's not logical.....but then the establishment should not allow separate checks on large parties. Say over 10. Then they protect themselves. Legally speaking your "obligation" or "contract" with the restaurant is the bill or check they give you. They can have any policy on earth they want.....however once they give you a check for 1-2-3-4 people that's your check. If the policy is gratuity on parties of 8 or more.....but you have a check for 1-2-3-4 people.....then guess what the restaurant cannot enforce the 18% gratuity.

                                                                                        The world is full of ill-logic this is just one example.

                                                                                        1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                          Your position is the illogical one. You are trying to use an absurd technicality to justify an indefensible position. The reality of the situation is that a party of 20 was seated together. Separate checks or not, the party totalled at least 20. So the automatic gratuity applies.

                                                                                          1. re: Enigma3

                                                                                            First I'm not picking a "position" as stated I'm in the industry! I'm explaining to you legally what would happen if this were pursued by the establishment. I'm not defending the action at all.

                                                                                            Years ago I had a similar incident on a party at one of my establishments where the sticking point was regarding a policy of coupons/promotions not being used in combination with others. My waiter (without checking with management first) agreed to provide separate checks per couple for a large party. Thinking he was doing the right thing accommodating the guests request. When the check(s) were delivered the group were like extreme couponers and had every coupon promotion, discount available which clearly stated couldn't be combined with any other offer.

                                                                                            I took them to court because it was about half their total combined check(s). Even though they were in a private room seated at 1 table for the night made the reservation for a party of 25 people I lost the case.

                                                                                            The bottom line once I presented them with separate checks I voided my policy regarding use of cross promotions.

                                                                                            So you can say whatever you like about "logic" I'm telling you about reality. While not identical circumstances I can't see how the result would be any different if pursued legally, that's the point I'm making.

                                                                                            1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                              Well that does make me understand why some places refuse to do separate checks for a large party. That practice usually annoys me but now I'll be a bit more sympathetic.

                                                                                              1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                Cross promotions are the same as party policy?

                                                                                                When a group comes in and seated together as a party it is a party no matter how they divy the checks.

                                                                                                When the party comes in, reads the menu (where the gratuity policy is written) and then orders it enters into a contract agreement wth the resto. If they are unsure about it or object to it they can ask the manager or leave.

                                                                                                That percentage tip agreed to (when you order) is a an obligation you are required to pay unless you dispute it with the owner/manager before you leave.

                                                                                                So if you do not want to pay the tip because (say) you had terrible service. You call the manager over and tell him/her. He will take it off (if he is reputable).

                                                                                                The person who posted the receipt on reddit stated that he could not take the tip off or that it was automatic. That is an utter lie. You hit a button calculating it. It can be easily voided.

                                                                                                I have been a server, a restaurant owner and a patron. If my service was terrible you can bet your booty I would object to coughing up 18% and would say so. Just because there is a policy in place, does not excuse bad service. It is not a free ride to slack on that table and concentrate your service on the tables where the tip is not a given. Same token - good service, you should feel free to tack on to the 18%.

                                                                                            2. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                              jrvedivici:
                                                                                              i don't doubt you,
                                                                                              still,
                                                                                              the situation is really sad and unfair.

                                                                                          2. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                            Except it doesn't.

                                                                                            Ten two-tops wouldn't be seated at the same time, order at the same time, need their meals to come out at the same time, need to pay at the same time....if anything, this was a more demanding than usual party of 20 due to the separate checks.

                                                                                            1. re: LeoLioness

                                                                                              No offense but please read my last post which I believe is directly above this. (Following threads on an I-phone is difficult for me) I'm telling you what lesson I learned in court when I was on the other side of this issue.

                                                                                              If you or anyone want to send me the $500/$600 (it was about 10 years ago but the amount was close to what it was) that it cost me than I will gladly agree your all correct!

                                                                                              1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                You were actually taken to court over this? I find that surprising. I would think that a "party" would be determined by the reservation or seating, not by the issuing of checks.

                                                                                                1. re: LeoLioness

                                                                                                  No I wasn't taken to court I took them to court and lost. There is more behind the story but the bottom line was since it was separate checks that dictated the number of people considered to be in that party.

                                                                                                2. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                  Seems the lesson is be clear in your coupon and promotions what is allowed and disallowed.

                                                                                                  Want to piss people off? Give them a big fat surprise at the end of their meal.

                                                                                                  1. re: Sal Vanilla

                                                                                                    Especially the kind of people who leap at the chance to play victim.

                                                                                                    1. re: Sal Vanilla

                                                                                                      It was clearly written one the coupon. Not to be used or combined with other discounts or coupons. ( or something similar) That wasn't in question what was in question was the fact the separate checks allowed them to use a coupon per check rather than one per the table. That's why it was roughly 50% off the sum of the total for what was booked as a "private party".

                                                                                                      1. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                        Next time I'd put no using it with private parties eh? Bummer. That might irk me too. We never did coupons, but I can imagine the complications. Heck even dealing with Early Birds was annoying - everyone wants an early bird at 8 pm.

                                                                                                        1. re: Sal Vanilla

                                                                                                          one of my local restaurants deals with this sort of situation by stipulating that there will only be one check issued for any group sitting together at one table. the diners are free to work out how they will divide up the check among themselves, but the restaurant will not get involved, and will only treat the party as ONE party with ONE check.

                                                                                                          no separate checks allowed unless people are sitting separately.

                                                                                                          this restaurant has a counter, and if there are two spaces available at the counter next to each other, preference for those spaces will be given to parties of two.
                                                                                                          same story with two tops.

                                                                                                          your post showed me the method to their madness. . .

                                                                                                          1. re: westsidegal

                                                                                                            Sometime restaurant owners and their policies are their own worst enemies.....in my former life, I was the restaurant manager for a couple of prominent country clubs. Often, there would be large tables for groups of members on dinner nights(20+). Each member, their spouses, and or guests each received their checks accordingly.....It could have been a single check, for two or as many guests they brought with them. Each other member also received their own checks for what they were responsible for.

                                                                                                            It was a difficult task at all. In today's world, I'm a dinosaur....I still carry cash.....but for many it's plastic. As a restaurant owner, unless you have a cash only policy, you should accommodate your guests with the services you offer. That would be my position, but the beauty of being an owner is you can beat to your own drum...and that's a position I also respect.

                                                                                                            1. re: fourunder

                                                                                                              in my experience, country clubs' financial arrangements with their patrons are very different from a restaurant's arrangement with it's patrons.

                                                                                                              when i worked in Ct., country clubs sort of ruled the roost in terms of group dinners and socializing. the members of the country club had a big say in determining the payment policies.
                                                                                                              the members, also, paid a huge initiation fee to join the club and a huge yearly fee to remain a member. there seemed to be member participation, either direct or representative, in every major club decision.

                                                                                                              when i moved from Ct. to Manhattan, restaurants ruled the roost. the restaurant customers didn't pay any initiation fees to go there or to bring guests there. all the payment policies were determined by the restaurant ownership.
                                                                                                              this made perfect sense, because, the restaurant OWNERSHIP was the party with the most skin in the game in terms of the restaurant's financial success or its financial failure.

                                                                                                              if i were on the financial hook as a restaurant owner, i would want as much control as i could get. it's a TREMENDOUS risk.

                                                                                                              1. re: westsidegal

                                                                                                                Yeah, I'm not sure clubs and restaurants are analogous.

                                                                                                                I belong to several clubs, and payment is always specifically between me and the club, settled at some time other than the time of purchase, even if its just grabbing a couple bottles of water from the shack on the 9th hole. My guests never see a bill or even have to mention what party they're with at the clubs I belong to. Largely because of this type of discretion, and the ability to have almost any demand met without a fuss, I am still much more likely to host engagements at the clubs I belong to rather than restaurants.

                                                                                                                Even at nice restaurants where I am a known regular I cannot expect the same amount of control and discretion as I can at the club.

                                                                                                                1. re: MonMauler

                                                                                                                  i agree that the clubs offered much more control and discretion, BUT

                                                                                                                  the quality of their food offerings ranged from so-so to horrid.
                                                                                                                  i'll never forget when i was served a fish dish at one of Connecticut's most beautiful clubs with a grand dining room that overlooked LI Sound.
                                                                                                                  the dish was brought out with great fanfare under a cloche.
                                                                                                                  when the cloche was removed, there sat a greyish piece of fish that clearly had been brought from frozen to cooked in a microwave oven (the white slimy stuff that oozes out during cooking was still attached to the piece of fish).
                                                                                                                  on top of the disgusting fish, they had poured some bottled barbeque sauce, and on top of that they had sliced some raw red onions.

                                                                                                                  after i moved to manhattan, i never saw a dish that even approached that level of awful.

                                                                                                                  BUT
                                                                                                                  MonMauler,
                                                                                                                  there was, indeed, as you pointed out, far less privacy

                                                                                                                  1. re: westsidegal

                                                                                                                    Ugh. That fish sounds revolting. Luckily, I think the food is universally good at the few clubs I belong to, and they handle parties and events exceptionally well, however these are all "premium," top-notch, some would even say "world-class" clubs. I've been to many events at lesser clubs in my area and others where the food is not as good and the fish you were served would be the apex of their culinary achievements.

                                                                                                3. re: jrvedivici

                                                                                                  i get separate checks in a large party all the time, & we regularly pay automatic gratuity. here, more than 6 often qualifies you, but 10 certainly would.