Sugar and coffee snobbery

[fame da lupo]

Am I the only coffee snob (espresso, specifically) who takes sugar? I'm tired of baristas attitude regarding sugar-users (that they have "undeveloped palates" was today's insult). Why do other snobs think that sugar harms or covers over the flavors, rather than adding another layer?

I'm confused about the sugar hatred; educate me ye 'Hounds.

[Maximilien]

Yes, a small amount of sugar just makes it better for me.

I usually ask the person making the coffee to drop in a small tea-spoon when they press the coffee.

[ipsedixit]

I don't judge people on how they take their coffee, especially after having sat next to a gentleman on a flight where I saw him pour something like 10 sugar packets into his little 3/4 filled 6 oz paper airplane cup.

And of course he was no country bumpkin, my companion was a noted English Indian author and novelist.

[fame da lupo]

It might take 10 to make that stuff taste appetizing.

[scubadoo97]

My thought as well

[Maximilien]

From memory, Indians do drink their coffee/chai/tea quite sweet.

[ipsedixit]

And, hence, my previous inquiry on this very topic.
http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/880960

[mugen]

Tea in India is typically brewed by boiling it in milk (with spices that include cardamom, cloves and ginger, if they can be afforded) and with a lot of sugar. Coffee remains a phenomenon of the cities: poor imitations of Starbucks are the urbane place to gather for middle-class Indians - as KFC, McDonalds and Pizza Hut regularly top regional lists at zomato.com (a yelp equivalent). Oh globalisation, you wondrous thing.

[mugen]

Sugar can be complementary in that it can increase the perception of aromatics while suppressing perceived bitterness, but the amount required to do that can be below the threshold at which the sugar itself is perceived: around 1%.

I don't have much of a taste for sugar: I eat so little refined sugar that half a teaspoon in ~350mL of liquid seems sweet to me. I would never add it to espresso, because I would prefer to (try to) taste and savour the complexity and subtleties of the espresso; sugar would supress or overpower them, and it would particularly distort the natural balance of acidity and sugars.

That said, if I added sugar and a barista accused me of an 'undeveloped palate', I'd tell him to fk off.

Try this for an experiment: drink your espresso without sugar for a month, then order two at the end of the month, add sugar to one, and see which of the two it is that you prefer. I have a feeling that you'll choose the one without sugar.

[fame da lupo]

Interesting stuff (1st paragraph). Re: the experiment, unfortunately we're in a counterfactual. Since drinking anything one way for a month accustoms you to it, you'll experience it differently over time. By the end of the month, it'll taste different to you than it did at the start, despite being the exact same beverage. Going from one style to another (say no sugar to sugar) is a jarring transition that'll emphasize the new ingredient (or its lack). Just like if I drink an espresso w/o sugar, I get overwhelmed by the acidity. I'd have to imagine what it'd be like to drink the thing after having habituated myself to sugar's absence.

[tardigrade]

My mother and her 6 siblings all took their coffee black: they all married people who took their coffee with milk and sugar. I compromise, and just use milk.

I don't use sugar because I generally don't like sweet things. I've had Vietnamese drip coffee made with sweetened condensed milk, though, that was very good: I think the stronger the coffee the better it holds up to sugar.

[tim irvine]

I generally taste espresso and if it is well made, I drink it straight, right away. My regular barista pulls a wonderful shot. Very few do. A poorly pulled shot (which, in my experience, includes all automated ones) is just not a fun drink. Sugar might help it, but it won't make it worse. It will turn a bitter and/or sour crappy drink into something closer to Turkish coffee.

[fame da lupo]

I'm hoping you weren't implying that Turkish coffee tastes like bad espresso with sugar? My wife is Turkish and I make a mean cup myself.

[tim irvine]

Nope! I love Turkish coffee. There was a place here that made it right, but they are gone. It is unique and wonderful stuff, completely unlike espresso. However, I have been to places that produced a cup of purportedly Turkish coffee that I suspected of just being very strong over sugared coffee or maybe espresso with nothing at the bottom and made way way too quickly to have been done right.

[CanadaGirl]

I do think the sugar overwhelms, but that just means I don't want it in MY cup. I am baffled by people who claim there is only one right way to enjoy anything. There may only be one way I enjoy certain things, but that has nothing to do with how anyone might enjoy said things!!

[scubadoo97]

Pretty sure most Italians use sugar in their espresso

I don't use sugar that often but sometimes find sugar in coffee is like salt in food in that it can enhance flavors in coffee

[wonderwoman]

my grandparents immigrated from italy in the early 20th centruy. i remember my grandfather pouring -- dumping, really -- sugar into his espresso, but not stirring it, until it was sweet. then he ate the coffee-flavored sugar at the bottom of the cup with the spoon.

also remember my grandmother yelling at him the entire time:)

[fame da lupo]

As one whose spent a couple years in Italy, I can affirm this. I've explained this to baristas. In the last instance, the person told me that Italians take sugar because the roasts are too bitter. The person probably has little experience in the better Italian cafes.

I also agree that sugar enhances certain flavors, in particular the fruit and toffee notes that I love.

[Panini Guy]

The thing is espresso in Italy is one thing (more like three actually - south, central/roman, north) and remarkably consistent between cities in the respective regions. In Italy espresso is ALWAYS a blend, usually with a high Brazil content to bring out low chocolate note.

In the US you have places that use a dark (south Italy/Napoli) or medium (north/Milano) or something in between (Rome/Fierenze) blend. Starbucks does this. Often times shops offering these will put out atrocious espresso because they can't know how to make it as they don't know what's actually in it.

And then you have those few shops that had taken the 'idea' of espresso and taken it further - using fewer beans in blends (Illy uses 11 I believe, while Intelligentsia Black Cat uses 3) or a single origin/farm - say a Bolivia Anjilinaka or Ethiopia Biloya.

Italians don't believe you can make espresso with a single origin. It doesn't fit their idea of espresso and actually may be against the law there. But you can. And when you do, you're highlighting specific characteristics of that single bean. Sometimes it's very citrusy, sometimes tree fruit, sometimes jammy like tamarind. Not everyone's cup of espresso, but they can be enjoyable when made by someone with skill. And adding sugar doesn't allow one to experience what that specific espresso offers.

But in the end its the customer's choice. I only mention this to point out that not all espresso is equal and not all espresso is based on what's found in Italy. Americans took the idea, experimented with it and created something different, and in many cases, better.

[fame da lupo]

Agreed on the later -- I've been wondering if American style roasting may feed back into Italy and start something there. I'm still not convinced that sugar covers over the nuances of single origin coffees. It's also highly likely that someone used to tasting espresso with sugar is going to taste that espresso differently than someone not accustomed to it. To that person, they probably will only taste sugar. The person used to sugar will pull more flavors out of the same shot.

[zin1953]

In the FWIW mode . . .

I have two grinders at home -- one is for S.O. espresso (most often from Ethiopian - a washed Sidamo, or Yirgacheffe (Wote Konga). ; the other is for my "house" espresso blend, generally from Redbird Espresso, but occasionally I use Metropolis Redline, Caffè Fresco Ambrosia, etc.

[Panini Guy]

LA... ok. Klatch is great. Intelligentsia is more a 'scene' although they have the chops. But if you have an opportunity to visit Handsome Roasters, you'll find some excellent espresso. I've found theirs to consistently be full flavored and rounded as opposed to off the charts bright. I think they'll let you add sugar although they might put up a fight.

[fame da lupo]

I live about 2 miles from Klatch's roastery, so I've been pretty pampered. Thanks for the rec on Handsome, always looking to add new downtown destinations.

[zin1953]

http://www.home-barista.com/coffees/l...

[fame da lupo]

Nice list -- I'd add Barrington Coffee Roasters to it. Based in the Berkshires. Turned into liquid gold at Amherst Coffee and helped produce a lot of my academic work while a grad student there.

[Will Owen]

As my coffee has gotten better over the years I've been able to go from a teaspoon per mug to less than half that. I no longer want it sweet, but to my taste a bit of sugar rounds off and enhances the flavor. And if any hired minion wants to give me grief about that, I will remind him or her exactly whose cup of coffee this is, although that has never happened. Of course, neither do I hang out in places with "baristas."

[zin1953]

Oh, gee . . . where to begin?

a) Not even the LAPD's infamous S.W.A.T. team will kick in your front door and and hit with tasers for putting sugar in your espresso . . . or lemon peel, or . . . or . . . or . . . .

b) I am not really sure I am a snob, just because I drink my espresso "straight" (no sugar). I also drink my cappuccino without sugar; my brewed (drip) coffee without sugar (though generally with milk); my tea without sugar; and so on . . . I just don't like those drinks with added sugar. Does that make me a snob?

c) Sugar does not "harm" anything; it can, however, be useful in covering over the bitterness that can exist in a bad shot of espresso, or with an over-extracted and/or "burnt" drip.

d) Finally, who gives a $#|+? Drink your coffee the way YOU enjoy it!

[beachmouse]

I supertaste bitter, and find that I'll need a half teaspoon of sugar in even a 100% Kona coffee to cut the bitterness down to tolerable for me.

So I'm with you on this one.

[Panini Guy]

I'd start by saying there are so few shops that do this - probably fewer than 0.25% of all coffeehouses - that I'd have to ask why don't you just avoid them?

I can give you a number of reasons, but the above is a good starting point.

[fame da lupo]

In my experience, they are the same places that make the best espresso. That's why I'm here. Perhaps it's that those who are self-consciously the best must reject wholly the philosophy of the corporate chains, which rely almost exclusively on sugar and dairy for flavor. An overreaction then.

[Panini Guy]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here. I used to own a coffeehouse and we were accused of snobbery although we never refused sugar or milk or anything else. You bought it, do with it what you want. It didn't make us as happy as someone who tasted the fruits of our labor and enjoyed it as is, but it's not our business to tell you what to do.

However, with some coffees and espressos we encouraged tasting it unadultered first before adding anything as our mission was to do something different and prove to the public that there's no such thing as "just coffee" in the same way there's no "just wine" or "just beer". It's all different depending on where it's from, how it's roasted, etc. etc. ad infinitum - and I'm sure you've heard this from the bars you visit.

On the one hand, it's individual sensibility. If I'm eating a burger at Five Guys, I'm likely to put ketchup on it. If I'm ordering a $15 dollar burger of Wagyu beef cooked rare, I want to savor the beef. The ketchup isn't adding another layer, it's acidity is competing with the luscious fat. You may think differently.

OTOH, I fully understand a coffeehouse wanting to gain appreciation for their espresso. There's a lot that goes into making a great espresso besides pushing a button. A great barista really is a professional highly educated on the process. I'd hate to equate them to chefs, but the concept of bringing your own ketchup to The French Laundry comes to mind when you're talking sugar and milk in a specific type of espresso.

I'll add that coffee professionals live in a bit of a bubble. The community has a number of 'high priests' they follow on Twitter and Tumbler and the trend of the best of them, which become destination shops, is to not offer sugar. So it gets copied.

I don't know the Seattle scene that well (I'm assuming that's where you're from based on other posts). I don't know if David Shomer at Vivace allows sugar or not. I would think he does as he tries to recreate true Italian espresso blends. And I can't see why any shop that offered something akin to a Northern Italian or Southern Italian espresso blend would object to sugar.

But for a lot of single origin espressos (and some blends), there are notes - particularly fruit acidity - that would get lost in sugar. Many are already fairly sweet (in coffee terms). The shop would like appreciation for their art. You could humor them by taking a sip, saying it's nice, but I like it sweeter, then add your sugar.

I'm trying to respond best I can as someone who was inside the bubble and understands the rationale, but one who also sees a lot of it is overblown and not customer friendly.

If you really want to upset a top notch barista, order your espresso, watch them start to make it, then go to the bathroom and let the drink sit there. Trust me, you'll be talked about in unfavorable terms while you're away from the counter :-)

[bbqboy]

So honey and 1/2 & 1/2 would be off the charts on the NO
scale? :)

[Panini Guy]

In an espresso? They'd throw you out even in Italy!

[fame da lupo]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'm not in Seattle (LA, rather) but I'm also not happy unless I'm drinking the best espresso (which I'd say is the stuff produced by Grumpy in NYC, Blue Bottle in San Francisco, Klatch in the IE .. I have fond memories of Monorail in Seattle and Sterling in Portland).

I understand the idea behind single origin coffees and recognize the variety of flavors that can be coaxed out of the world's coffee beans. But I also don't think sugar happens to mute or damage those flavors, at least not the ones I care about (berry, toffee, caramel). I find it complimentary just as acidity (say in ketchup) is complimentary of fat (say in a burger). Sugar balances bitterness and acidity as well. Perhaps this is the "Thai" way of approaching coffee as an art of balancing extreme and opposite flavors into a beautiful whole. I think sugar does that.

I'm not sure the "bringing ketchup to the French Laundry" analogy is apt. I've never found a cafe that had no sugar, though there is a stupid trend towards only providing large crystal raw sugar (usually the "Sugar in the Raw" brand) that very poorly dissolves in espresso. I think it's a problem of viscosity and temperature.

PS Hell no do I ever let my espresso sit, gotta get those volatile flavor compounds on my tongue ASAP!

[zin1953]

Blue Bottle? You can certainly do better . . . . ;^)

I find Blue Bottle to be very problematic for me. Even in their cafés, there are times when I have liked it very much, and times when I haven't. And I've never been happy with it at home (Elektra T1 with a Mahlkönig K30 Vario). But even at its best, BB's coffee has never wowed me.

C'est la vie . . .

[fame da lupo]

I've only been to one location, the alleyway location in Hayes Valley. Been on several occasions and never was disappointed. I've gleaned that they've become a pretty big operation nowdays, akin to Stumptown... not sure if size has affected their quality...

[Ruthie789]

Coffee is something you are supposed to enjoy. You like sugar in the coffee, put it in and no need to justify your why when adding it. There is so much pretention about food and it is really unnecessary.

[fame da lupo]

I get that and I use sugar because it's enjoyable, but I am also curious what other coffee snobs have to say...

[zin1953]

I don't care what snobs have to say, but if others who enjoy coffee wish to contribute, I'll be happy to read their posts.