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Fat Girls

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  • kengk Dec 9, 2012 12:45 PM
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WTF? If I owned this restaurant I believe I would beat the crap out of the employee that did this before firing them.

http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/...

  1. Had I been the recipient of that tab, I would have taken a blank piece of notepaper from my purse and a sharpie (yes, I always carry paper and a sharpie), I would have drawn a fake dollar bill and would have written :"For the *uckin' Moron Waiter--Here's your tip"

    1 Reply
    1. re: jarona

      A good old fashioned ass-whipping would have been in order. I mean, who doesn't know fat people are dangerous when provoked? Clearly, an example needed to be set.

    2. Poorly handled by management as well. "We apologize, your bill has been taken care of and here is a gift card.........we just hope you will give us another chance" would be the only way to handle this. Not taking off 25-50%.

      1. As owner,pissed would just be the starting gate in a long race.Fired with cause would be the nicest thing happening to ALL STAFF involved.Even the dumb ass,douche that reluctantly tried to negotiate,re-negotiate a reduced PRICE.........TWICE !,
        As the patron/s ,a scene would do for starters.This isn't a he said,she said allegation,it's the written,printed word IN MY HAND.

        1. Let's play devil's advocate for a minute.

          If the check had said the "tall man in the corner" would anybody have got upset?
          "The lady with the awesome rack"
          "Two Hispanic males by the door"
          "The black guy in the middle"
          "The devastatingly handsome man with his lovely wife" < ------Me!

          I saw video of the ladies in question: they were quite heavy.

          Bottom line, IMO, don't hurt the customers feelings or otherwise make them angry. Us fat folks don't like being called fat. Surely everybody gets that.

          8 Replies
          1. re: kengk

            Also it's unlikely the waiter had their health in mind when he typed that. Shaming people just doesn't seem to work anymore.

            1. re: smoledman

              Would you shame a cancer patient for being ill with their "health in mind"? Of course not, that would be just as ridiculous as shaming a fat person.

              1. re: smoledman

                anymore? I doubt shaming anyone has ever worked. Maybe sent them into hiding.

              2. re: kengk

                Yes, I saw a picture of the women in question, and they were ample. But you're right, don't hurt the customers' feelings.

                The perfectly healthy young man with acne scars would not want to see "pizza face" on his receipt.
                The handsome man with protruding ears would not want to see "Dumbo" on his receipt.

                And thanks for the only smile on this thread: "The devastatingly handsome man with his lovely wife" < ------Me!

                1. re: kengk

                  Actually, you know what some of us fat folks don't like? The fact that 'fat' is not the neutral descriptor it should be. Instead, it is a term that is meant to fill us with shame and to embolden strangers to assume they know everything about our health, our hygiene, our diet, and our activities. It is a term that people assume is not a descriptor, but an 'insult'.

                  That said, what this restaurant did was idiotic, from the use of a term that is still too loaded to be neutral to the response to the complaint.

                  Sadly, there's just no shaming people out of their idiocy or their complacency.

                  1. re: Lizard

                    Hear, hear!

                  2. re: kengk

                    "The lady with the awesome rack" would have upset me indeed. I am not a walking pair of boobs.

                    Regardless, I agree with your last point. anyone in a position of service who expects income from good service should keep their opinions to themselves in a professional environment, so long as they're not personally being assaulted. Rude and classless.

                    1. re: kengk

                      I would have been offended by "The lady with the awesome rack."

                    2. I hope they fired the guy that did that.

                      4 Replies
                      1. re: Njchicaa

                        Probably did and his descendants will be cursed for 7 generations.

                        1. re: Njchicaa

                          The article I read said the waiter was suspended-whatever that means-not fired.

                          1. re: Njchicaa

                            The restaurant's facebook page says the employee was terminated.

                            1. re: Firegoat

                              Thanks for the update!

                              Jerseygirl111

                          2. It's all part of the decline, folks. On another board, a 'Hound wrote about how she was humiliated at a high-end dining/charity event by some turd who made fun of acne scars that she carries from her teen years. The troglodytes live, and they walk among us clad in the cloak of "Oh, we didn't mean any harm..."

                            1 Reply
                            1. re: pinehurst

                              Biggest lies in the English language (in no particular order):

                              We didn't mean any harm. (yes you did)
                              No offense intended, but....(yes it was)
                              Not to be an ass, but...(but yet here you are)
                              I don't mean to sound like I'm nitpicking (then don't say it)
                              Sorry this is blunt... (yes, you're an insensitive jackhat.)
                              I'll respect you in the morning. (hell,you don't respect me now)
                              Your check is in the mail. (of course you'll be able to recognize it, because it will bounce as it hits the bottom of your mailbox....)
                              I only had one cookie, mom...(honey, the oven isn't even cool yet, and the jar is empty)

                              and on and on and on....

                            2. There is much here that I just don't understand. Why do customers needed to be identified by physical description in the first place? Wouldn't a table number (or bar seat number) suffice? The women were probably not roaming about the place, since it would be hard to do that while eating tri-tip and fries. And even if they were roaming around, and it was thus necessary to note their appearance rather than their location, it seems like a quick note about their clothing would be more useful.

                              I also can't fathom how the bartender could hand two women a check with the phrase "fat girls" on it and not realize that they would notice, and react negatively. Maybe it's internet-related. Maybe this idiot has been trolling so long he thinks he's also anonymous in person.

                              3 Replies
                              1. re: small h

                                Pay for what you ate. Do not tip. Explain to the manager why you will never return. Never return.

                                1. re: small h

                                  Many people think it is totally fine to shame fat people, and that the fat people will just be so sad and ashamed and just slink away without saying anything. Ugh. :(

                                  1. re: small h

                                    That is true. Moreover, given obesity rates in much of the developed world, it is highly unlikely that they were the only "fat" people in the restaurant.

                                  2. they should be fired for being stupid, forget about offensive.

                                    1. Now it's an International story. Offending your customers is not what you want your restaurant to be known for. The owner should fire the waiter, apologize to the women and comp their food, at the very least. How about offering to make a donation to their favorite charity in their name? Nice gesture at this time of year.

                                      1. Given that this is not the first story like this - and argueably not even the most offensive - I would assume that this is probably pretty widespread in the realm of "fireable offense, but how often do you get caught?"

                                        2 Replies
                                        1. re: cresyd

                                          Totally agree. Add to that, we're only seeing the tiny percentage that caught who are stupid enough to put something in writing. Just look at the tens of thousands (millions?) of people who post pics or write stuff on Facebook never thinking that any of their 2500 bff's would ever share their personal info. Stupid

                                          1. re: cresyd

                                            Yes, this is so common I cant believe its even news.

                                          2. I had a sense of deja vu when I saw this... earlier this year there was a Chinese woman who had "lady chinky eyes" printed on her receipt -- http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines...

                                            And then there were the two people whose receipts had Ching and Chong printed on them: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12...

                                            2 Replies
                                            1. re: drongo

                                              Yes, I remember those. Very sad that anyone even thinks in those terms any more.

                                              1. re: drongo

                                                It's really hurtful, that's just another example of the same problem we have here. I have friends of all shapes, sizes and colors and it's horrible when something like this happens.

                                              2. Happened to people in our group after an event. We all stopped at a chain restaurant for a late drink/snack, and the restaurant offered separate checks. When we got our checks later in the evening, we had one with 'Fat Girl' on it, one with 'Gay Guy', and one with 'Big Blue Tits' on it. Management said they would take care of it, but we haven't ever returned. I felt sorry for 'Fat Girl' and 'Big Blue Tits' especially - we had been out for a school event, and these were young high school girls.

                                                4 Replies
                                                1. re: jeanmarieok

                                                  This -- when I was waiting tables back in the dark ages (no computers, no cellphones) -- the tables were numbered, and the table number **had** to go on the ticket, so that if you were tied up, someone else could bring the meal out when it was ready.

                                                  Then you mark the seats at the table consecutively -- the person to your left is #1, and on around the table. Then you can serve the right dish to the right person, without having to even come up with a foolish, insulting name, and once your coworker figures out who #1 is, the rest is really easy to figure out.

                                                  But then, that's far too simple, isn't it?

                                                  Pity that Table 3, person 1 is beyond the abilities of this nitwit.

                                                  1. re: jeanmarieok

                                                    a horrible practice but what the hell caused the moniker "big blue tits"? "fat girl" is also wrong. where did the idea of customer service go?

                                                    and yet no sympathy for "gay guy"? sheesh I know plenty of straights that I first figured for gay, but I'd never say anything. 'fag' is an appellation that persists with or without cause.

                                                    1. re: hill food

                                                      "and yet no sympathy for "gay guy"? sheesh I know plenty of straights that I first figured for gay, "

                                                      Why is it offensive to think a straight guy is gay? What if the situation were the opposite? What if a gay guy were deemed "straight guy" on the ticket? Is that "offensive?" Your post implies that the term "gay" is offensive. I don't get it.

                                                      1. re: ttoommyy

                                                        why do any of those people need to be labeled at all? I'm offended that the group was labeled -- at least as much as I'm offended by the labels themselves.

                                                  2. Very mean thing to do but the fat girls are making too big a fuss about it. They are very obese and it's not like they've only been obese for two days, they've probably been obese for years.

                                                    43 Replies
                                                    1. re: redfish62

                                                      So it's okay to insult them? A black person has been black for his entire life, so he should be okay with being insulted because he should be used to it?

                                                      1. re: Ruth Lafler

                                                        Lol. As if I said it was okay to insult them.

                                                        They seem to expect some kind of financial compensation for their hurt feelings, I'm totally unsympathetic towards that, the fact that someone was mean to them doesn't mean they are owed $$$.

                                                        1. re: redfish62

                                                          First, I don't see where they thought they were entitled to financial compensation -- it sounded to me as if they mostly wanted to have their outrage validated.

                                                          Second, a restaurant is selling hospitality. A guest that is deliberately insulted by a restaurant employee is not receiving the hospitality they are paying for and should be compensated.

                                                          1. re: redfish62

                                                            Sometimes people who speak out about things like this aren't as complicated as others (who want to rationalize making a mockery of them) presume. If I got insulted at a restaurant and I wasn't initially satisfied with how the management handled it, I'd want to get word out- especially if I felt I was being discriminated against. Bad press is a good way to light a fire under the management's rear-end to do something about it. Bad press in the media can be a death sentence to a restaurant. Customers know that, it can be very effective in getting the management to pay proper attention to things. Not to mention serve as a warning for other establishments who don't discipline their hospitality workers for transgressions such as this.

                                                            1. re: redfish62

                                                              Why go to the media? Because it is a form of bullying or at the very least ignorance. Absolutely nothing wrong with standing up for yourself and possibly preventing others from having to deal with the same situation in the future.

                                                              1. re: redfish62

                                                                redfish, your public comments about perfect strangers are extremely offensive. A dear friend of mine is morbidly obese. And no, she doesn't spend her days watching TV and guzzling chips and soft drinks or beer. Sadly, it is very hard for her to do exercise to get back into shape; it is a much more complex issue than it is for those of us who might be a bit pudgy and can step up our physical activity and cut down on portion size.

                                                                Her severe weight gain started with a medical issue. Just be glad it isn't you.

                                                                1. re: Ruth Lafler

                                                                  Devil's advocate - if obese people received more public humiliation it might help turn the epidemic around.

                                                                  Just that little Satan on my shoulder speaking, never mind.

                                                                  1. re: smoledman

                                                                    It's self evident that it is not the case. Overweight people have been horribly publicly ridiculed for decades, even before the "epidemic", if anything one could argue that ridicule has only made the problem worse.

                                                                    1. re: alkonost

                                                                      +1

                                                                      1. re: alkonost

                                                                        Bravo, alkonost. It prevents many heavy people from doing exercise, for one thing. I remember neighbours laughing at a very heavy lady who was riding a bicycle (!!!) I told them off.

                                                                        1. re: lagatta

                                                                          You know what else ticks me off? When an overweight person is eating a perfectly fine meal like a salad or a lean cut of meat with a side of vegetables, and someone walks by making comments about them being a disgusting over-eater who does nothing but cram "crap" down their gullet. All the while there's a lean person a few tables away noshing on mozzarella sticks, chilli cheese fries and washing it down with a milkshake, but they somehow escape that rude person's notice. This happened when I was dining with a friend of mine, and I've unfortunately observed this in other situations. Things like this are heart-breaking.

                                                                          In the end it's not about weight, or diet, or anything like that. It's about standing up to bullies and putting your foot down for social transgressions that are not acceptable.

                                                                        2. re: alkonost

                                                                          Doesn't seem to work for morons.

                                                                          1. re: rasputina

                                                                            We all have control over who we associate with even if stupidity can't be cured. Just as employers have control over who works for them. You can fire a friend just like an employee can fire a rude employee.

                                                                        3. re: smoledman

                                                                          "if obese people received more public humiliation it might help turn the epidemic around."

                                                                          That's the rationale of a bully... "I bully people to toughen them up for the real world."

                                                                          1. re: smoledman

                                                                            So then if the restaurant referred to people as chink eyed, or pock marked, or baldies, or gay... that would help turn those epidemics around too?

                                                                            People pay for hospitality and entertainment at a restaurant. They deserve common courtesy.

                                                                            1. re: Firegoat

                                                                              People aren't born fat, so the comparisons you make are moot (save for the, umm, "baldies", I suppose).

                                                                              Not arguing with your last point, however.

                                                                              1. re: linguafood

                                                                                Some people are born fat. Second, some become fat due to metabolic conditions, untreatable diseases, injuries that prevent their mobility (back injury, hip, knee), and various medications with weight gaining side effects. The sweeping blanket assumption that overweight people are such out of character flaw should be rejected by any sane and rational person. If you want a common example of medical cause: menopause is notorious for wreaking metabolic havoc on women, despite eating modestly and exercising the weight gain many (not all, but many) will have their metabolisms slow to the point where they're overweight no matter what they do. That's just one example, there's countless others.

                                                                                Best to not judge or ridicule any stranger on presumption for any situation, because you don't know them and are likely to be in the wrong.

                                                                                1. re: alkonost

                                                                                  Yes, I am quite aware of genetic predispositions. That said, those ladies were pretty far away from menopause, wouldn't you agree?

                                                                                  Note how you wrote "some". I am going to presume that the majority of obese people have no one else to "blame" but themselves and their lifestyle choices, while taking in consideration the percentage of overweight folks who are on medications or have injuries preventing them from moving around. Those are the exception, not the rule. To think otherwise is naïve at best.

                                                                                  This may not be a popular opinion in a country where most people drive everywhere and eat super-sized food in their super-sized cars, but that doesn't make it completely off-base.

                                                                                  1. re: linguafood

                                                                                    Considering that there are numerous studies out there that confirm dieting fails over 95% of the time in the long term, blaming the patient for "lifestyle choices" is a ridiculous attitude to have- yet it's a popular one that perpetuates ineffective treatment of medical problems. So who is being naive here? When overweight people make the lifestyle changes you suggest and if it fails 95% of the time, that points to an underlying medical issue. But it's far easier and takes less energy to blame the patients than it is to find out what mechanism in their body is broken and then make the effort to cure it.

                                                                                    I cited menopause as one of many causes for obesity, so I'm puzzled about how you're assuming that I was referring to the ladies when it's clear I was not.

                                                                                    Medical issues or metabolic complications leading to obesity are far to common to be classified as "the exception, not the rule". Of course they do not account for all cases, but its FAR more common than people- who enjoy ridiculing fat people in some cases- like to admit when faced with recent research that is dispelling a lot of the myths about weight gain and weight loss. "Calories in, calories out" is archaic at best and a relic that has no place in medicine. All women go through menopause, that's 50% (give or take) of the entire population who may experience medical causes for weight gain. Another thing to consider is that type 2 diabetes (another metabolic disease) isn't rare, and recent research points to genetic and epigenetic etiology rather than "lifestyle issues"- you can loose weight but the type 2 remains. 1 in 10 women of childbearing age have PCOS, this also causes weight gain. There is currently no cure for type 2 or PCOS, anyone claiming that "if they lost weight they wouldn't be sick" are ignorant, because even in if the patient does manage to loose weight despite the uphill metabolic battle, the diseases remain.

                                                                                    So it's a loose-loose situation for anyone who is overweight, regardless of the cause. If you have a medical condition or metabolic factor you're judged as being a disgusting over-eating pig. This makes it early impossible to get proper medical diagnosis in the first place, so god knows how many obese patients out there actually do have underlying metabolic or disease complications and aren't being taken seriously because most doctors subscribe to the same popular fat-hating dogma. And if one happens to be overweight because they have over-eaten and then make lifestyle changes to change that but are unsuccessful through not fault of their own, they're accused of being fat, lazy, disgusting with "no one to blame but themselves"...

                                                                                    That's a poop sandwich if I ever heard of one. If there's something I dislike, it's double standards.

                                                                                    1. re: linguafood

                                                                                      Linguafood, some of us counteract that by lobbying for more safe bicycle lanes,community fitness centres and for healthy food in "food deserts" with only convenience stores or junk available. Not by mocking people, which makes them feel like crap and fuels unhealthy habits.

                                                                                      1. re: lagatta

                                                                                        Those are all great ideas, for sure.

                                                                                    2. re: alkonost

                                                                                      According to numerous studies, less than 5% of obesity is caused by medical conditions or genetics.

                                                                                      That leaves an overwhelming amount of personal responsibility. Of course, that's just "numbers".

                                                                                      Even so, those facts do not excuse assholery or meanness.

                                                                                      1. re: linguafood

                                                                                        You are forgetting social conditions, whether low income, in countries where the poor have access to enough calories (or even too many!) but not proper, nutritious food, or an issue that crosses class and income lines: dreadful urban planning (sprawl). People in the Netherlands eat a lot of cheese and certainly more than enough calories, but have a far lower obesity rate than people of comparable ethnic backgrounds in most parts of North America, because so many cycle and walk, and towns, suburbs and city centres facilitate this. People in walkable city areas are leaner on average than people in car-dependent suburbs (at comparable income and educational levels). Yeah, I work a lot on this stuff. I'm very concerned about public health, but it is not only a matter of personal responsibility, though of course that is also a factor.

                                                                                        1. re: lagatta

                                                                                          But the populations of Europe are catching up big time (no pun intended) with regard to obesity rates. Germany is in general fairly urban, with lots of pedestrian areas and stores in walkable distances. Yet the obesity rates have been rising continuously over the last couple of decades, and shitty diet is the biggest factor here, mostly b/c exercise is *way* overrated when it comes to weight loss.

                                                                                          Agree about socio-economic conditions. But to get back to the "fat girls" in question, it seems to me that if you can afford to eat try-tip and fries in a casino, you are not below the poverty line. You are making bad dietary decisions.

                                                                                          Not that shaming them will change anything about that. That is just nasty, period.

                                                                                          1. re: lagatta

                                                                                            Gary Taubes covered this in his book "Good Calories, Bad Calories" as to why the Pima Indians became obese.

                                                                                          2. re: linguafood

                                                                                            You are aware that just the overweight people who have type 2 diabetes, alone, supersedes that number? And that doesn't count the undiagnosed. Then we have all the other diseases we haven't counted yet, nor the undiagnosed for those conditions. I suspect whatever studies you're citing are outdated.

                                                                                        2. re: linguafood

                                                                                          Well the chink eyed and pock marked should obviously be having plastic surgery, as should anyone with tattoos. Baldies need to have hair transplants. And well the gays I guess shouldn't dress so attractively. How dare they ruin the dining experience for the rest of us.

                                                                                      2. re: smoledman

                                                                                        No. Shame makes it worse, not better. I speak from experience. :(

                                                                                2. re: redfish62

                                                                                  yes we are allowed to be completely socially aberrant and just idly ridicule others to amuse only ourselves.

                                                                                  where's the cyanide? I think I left it near the thyme.

                                                                                  1. re: redfish62

                                                                                    I'm pretty disappointed that to see people blessing the act of the waiter with insulting the customers because they happened to be overweight. It gives a bad name to hospitality workers, and reeks of double standards. There are people who think it's perfectly acceptable to ridicule others, as long as it doesn't happen to them. Blessing this kind of behavior only emboldens jerks to keep doing it, and I'm certain they won't stop at insulting heavier clientele.

                                                                                    Not only is this rotten on social levels, but this is not good for the restaurant business. Why? Think about it: how many customers in your average restaurant look like Giselle Bundchen? Maybe less than 1%, so that means that 99% of all customers have some kind of physical feature that might be the target of a rude staff member, and do you really think that worker is going to be able to resist taking cheap shots at ALL customers if the bosses look the other way whenever they insult overweight clientele?

                                                                                    Behavior like this is bad for everyone, not just our larger friends who are often the butt of rude people's jokes. Do you have a big nose? Too many freckles? Acne? Baldness? A big gap in your front teeth? Poor choice of clothing for your body type (ex: plunging necklines with sagging boobies)? Maybe you lost a limb while serving our country? Well then guess what- someone in the hospitality industry might ridicule you as well. Do you find that acceptable?

                                                                                    1. re: alkonost

                                                                                      If we had less obese people there would be less chain restaurants and more gyms. Either way the economic benefits would be a wash.

                                                                                      1. re: smoledman

                                                                                        Where is your source of research that shows chain restaurants owe their success to the obese, and that gyms do not economically benefit from overweight people? The one place where I see the most overweight people is at the gym. Most of the people I observe at chain restaurants are of a normal weight.

                                                                                        1. re: smoledman

                                                                                          I am obese and do not patronize chains and exercise more than most of my "normal" weight co-workers and friends. Not at a gym though. Like, outside, hiking up mountains and riding my bike up hills. Please watch your blanket statements.

                                                                                        2. re: alkonost

                                                                                          I was a bit surprised at the girl's reaction in the end of the video. Scarred? Come ON.

                                                                                          There are assholes everywhere. Better grow a thicker skin (no pun intended) or try to DO something about it. And by that I don't mean suing the place.

                                                                                          1. re: alkonost

                                                                                            Who is blessing the waiter's behavior? Pretty much everyone is saying it was a mean thing to do.

                                                                                            What do you think the waiter's punishment should be? He has already gotten fired, should he be imprisoned? Receive a death sentence? Drawn and quartered? Keel-hauled? Forty lashes?

                                                                                            1. re: redfish62

                                                                                              You are. Repeatedly. You've expressed your opinion that it's OK to ridicule the obese because they're obese. I think it's great that the waiter got fired, the ladies who were rudely insulted by the waiter probably wouldn't have gone to the press if the manager did the right thing in the first place by firing the waiter on the spot- after all the evidence was in hand, it's not like there was any doubt. Wait staff shouldn't be in the business if they act like that, they're a liability to the company they work for.

                                                                                              1. re: alkonost

                                                                                                I think it is OK to ridicule the obese in the sense that I am against executing a person for ridiculing the obese.

                                                                                                What do you think is the appropriate punishment for a person who ridicules the obese? Should his tongue be cut out? Execution? Imprisonment?

                                                                                                1. re: redfish62

                                                                                                  I'm going to quote you so you're reminded of what you've written.

                                                                                                  "Very mean thing to do but the fat girls are making too big a fuss about it. They are very obese and it's not like they've only been obese for two days, they've probably been obese for years."

                                                                                                  If you mis-spoke, I suggest you clarify your statement, because it's petty to trivialize someone's pain simply because they've been "obese for years"- pretty much indicating you feel that they invited or deserved the incident for being what they are, and that the fault lies with them.

                                                                                                  I already answered your question the first time, so I reitierate: the waiter should have been fired on the spot- which didn't happen although I'm glad he's been fired since the ladies escalated the issue (better late than never). When one goes to a restaurant, hospitality is part of the understood contract. People do not out to an establishment with the expectation of their money being collected so that someone will insult them- I don't care if the insult is for the customer being over weight, poor looks, race, etc- it's the same problem and there is absolutely NO excuse or rationalization that would put a rude waiter in the right for doing something like that when unprovoked.

                                                                                                  A person in the service industry, or any job where they must interface with clients who insults those clients for any reason (when unprovoked) should be fired.

                                                                                                  1. re: redfish62

                                                                                                    No. I personally reserve the more Draconian punishments for people who feel more sympathy for the offenders than for the offended.

                                                                                                  2. re: alkonost

                                                                                                    According to FB (obviously true) the smirking manager is married into the owner's family, so nothing will happen to him.

                                                                                                    1. re: Firegoat

                                                                                                      Nepotism at it's finest. What a shame, I hope the family is mindful enough of their business to get rid of anyone who might harm it and not be tempted to reinstate that asshat once the dust settles.

                                                                                                  3. re: redfish62

                                                                                                    this forum seriously needs an ignore feature

                                                                                                    1. re: rasputina

                                                                                                      I believe that feature is located in your head '-)

                                                                                              2. We're getting off track when we discuss the nature/nuture argument re. BMI, or skin quality, amount of body hair, tone of voice (James Earl Jones or Truman Capote), or whether someone has a strong jawline or not, no?

                                                                                                The employee, and his manager, failed. That's it.

                                                                                                1 Reply
                                                                                                1. re: pinehurst

                                                                                                  Yep, I think we can all agree on that, at least.

                                                                                                2. Folks, this thread is already pretty unpleasant it's getting personal. We're going to lock it now.