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Moving out of parents, need new knives

My and my wife are still young (under 30s) and we bought a new house to finally move out of my parents house, and of course this means we have to invest in everything including knives

I had my eye on Tojiro DP series, wanted a 8'' chef, pairing knife, utility knife and a bread slicer sometime after if I like the knives.
However I just recently found this forum and quick search came up with lots of replies about quality of the knife going gown and that they're prone to chipping, this worries me a bit.
Looking at online retailer, the 3pc set is $140 which I think is great price, but if I have to watch out how I cut, to not chip the the knife on chicken bone, I'd rather bump the budget up to a $300 and get a better quality.
I'm new to cooking, I love it, but as you can imagine I can't stretch my wing in my fathers kitchen
I'd prefer western handle, stainless steel or anything that wouldn't make me worry about rusting.
My father has 8'' Wusthof Classic Slicer that I enjoy cutting with, no proper Chef knife in this kitchen
Could use some help.

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  1. <However I just recently found this forum and quick search came up with lots of replies about quality of the knife going gown and that they're prone to chipping>

    I have been on this forum for a few years now, and I do not remember anyone has said the quality of Tojiro knives are going down or gown(?). All Japanese hard steel thin blade knives are prone to chipping compared to German softer steel thicker blad knives. Tojiro DP, however, is not any more chippy than Shun Classic.

    <but if I have to watch out how I cut, to not chip the the knife on chicken bone, I'd rather bump the budget up to a $300 and get a better quality.>

    Quality is not the issue here, nor is the budget. If you are going to cut chicken bone, then you probably do not want a Japanese steel gyuto (Chef's) knife. Most are not meant for cutting chicken bone. You can spend $350 for a Japanese Aogmai Super Takeda gyuto and it still should not be used against chicken bone.

    http://www.chefknivestogo.com/tagyas2...

    Based on what you have said thus far, you may want to either (1) stick with German knives or (2) pick a softer steel Japanese knives like Fujiwara (great entry level J-knife, in my opinion), Even then, you cannot use a gyuto against chicken bone.

    21 Replies
    1. re: Chemicalkinetics

      Oh, I'm sorry, I copied and pasted my topic here from kitchen knife forums, this is where I find Tojiro users saying about chipping issues and quality going down with it showing in handle quality, whatever that means.
      I've been on chew for a bit now, and this forum I found recently, so I thought I would post this topic here, and get more opinions.

      As for cutting chicken, I mean carving chicken into pieces after it was roasted, I roast chicken quite often and when I cut it into pieces I wouldn't want the blade to chip.

      1. re: toyopl

        If you are on a budget look at getting three or four Dexter Russel knives. They aren't that sexy but will work very well.

        Even if you decide to upgrade later (which you probably will) the old knives will work very well for things that you don't want to befoul your high end knives on.

        1. re: toyopl

          Let's take one step back first.

          It is important to have a knife sharpening strategy. It really does not matter that you get a VG-10 Tojiro knife or a 420J Komachi knife if you do not sharpening them. All knives will go dull. A dull $300 knife is worse than a sharp $3 knife.

          If you are going to sharpen your knives with a flat waterstone or a gadget like Edge Pro Apex, then a Tojiro DP is good. If you are going to sharpen your knives with an electric knife sharpener like ChefChoice, then you probably do not want to go above Victorinox or Dexter-Russell.

          <As for cutting chicken, I mean carving chicken into pieces after it was roasted, I roast chicken quite often and when I cut it into pieces I wouldn't want the blade to chip.>

          A Tojiro knife does not readily chip when carving meat, and certainly not big chips. My understanding is that people are talking about microchips. Chips size which are barely noticeable by naked eyes or smaller.

          http://cdn.cheftalk.com/9/96/96f48459...

          A waterstone can easily fix these in 5 minutes or less. So I would consider the knife sharpening solution first, and then base on that you can think about what knives suit you the best.

          1. re: Chemicalkinetics

            The Edge pro Apex I could actually buy, I looked into it few months ago, what I like is that it seems so simple to use that I don't think I could mess up the edge or sharpen at the wrong angle.
            A waterstone I wouldn't feel comfortable using, just feel like u need to be more experienced with sharpening, but maybe I'm wrong.

            1. re: toyopl

              <A waterstone I wouldn't feel comfortable using, just feel like u need to be more experienced with sharpening>

              Well, it does take some practice and there is definitely a learning curve compared to Edge Pro, but it really isn't worse than learning to ride a bicycle. There are many other solutions. cowboyardee wrote a very good summary regarding various sharpening option:

              http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/7971...

              If you have never tried Japanese knives before, and is concern about the durability of these finer edges, but want to give these knives a try, then I would recommend looking at Fujiwara FKM:

              http://www.chefknivestogo.com/fufkmse...

              http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/FKM...

              They are a bit tougher than Tojiro DP.

              1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                And how would you place Mac Pro ? I see it seems to be very popular aswell.

                1. re: toyopl

                  I have not used Mac Pro. Based on reputation, I put a Mac knife between a Tojiro and a Dexter-Russell. -- a high end work horse knife.

                2. re: Chemicalkinetics

                  I used to spend a lot of time around OCD woodworkers who were REALLY into the sharpening techniques. they'd sort of go into a zen-like state with their stones (either water or oil) before they started the hand movements. I watched and copied and my chisel edges were perfect. didn't take long. and if you do screw it up, well you just lose a little blade material bringing it back to useable is all.

          2. re: Chemicalkinetics

            I use a cleaver on chicken bones. I'd probably cry if someone in the family used my knives on them. That being said, I have Shun, Sanelli, Global, Guy Ferri,( don't buy)Ken Onion, an Alaskan Ulu ?(not sure of the spelling) & assorted Schwarzeggar and Sohne knives I received as a gift. I use my Global, Shun, & S & S cleaver all the time, the rest gather more dust than I'd like.

            1. re: Joyfull

              <...Guy Ferri,( don't buy)Ken Onion...>

              Don't buy what? Guy Gerri knives or Ken Onion knives?

              1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                Apologies, using an unfamiliar I pad as my computer packed it in. I meant Guy Fieri. I wouldn't recommend.

                1. re: Joyfull

                  What was wrong on the GF knives? Other than the gaudy color scheme.

                  Jim

                  1. re: knifesavers

                    Too heavy ( for me ) & they don't stay sharp. I have a local butcher sharpen my regular knives & the GF dull up too fast for my liking.

                    1. re: Joyfull

                      Thanks for the information. A few of us did not like the color scheme, but we were sure of the knife steel quality. We didn't expect it would be great, but we were sure if Guy Ferri knives are bad or bad-bad.

                      1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                        I'm embarrassed to say I liked the color scheme at first, but my affection for it wore off pretty fast. I did luck out on the price, 50% off on amazon, & am grateful I didn't pay more.

                        1. re: Joyfull

                          I made several typo like spelling "were" vs "were not" Glad you could still understand. Thanks for the review on Guy Ferri knives.

              2. re: Joyfull

                Joyfull - I like an ulu - they're great for fine chopping herbs (well that and scraping the fat from sea mammal skins, but somehow that's never come up in my life. yet.) but not a basic necessity.

                1. re: hill food

                  Hill food, I haven't had mine for long, but you're right, they are great for chopping herbs. I'll have to pass on the scraping fat from a sea mammal skin though, my queasy stomach couldn't take it!

                  1. re: Joyfull

                    ohh but baby seals have such cute eyes....

                    yeah I can wait until the day comes I'm stranded on an ice floe. which you know could happen at any time here in the Midwest of course.

              3. Take yourself into a kitchen or housewares store, and try some good knives. It's a little like buying shoes -- you have to go with what fits the best, and you can't decide that without actually trying them and seeing how they fit.

                If you prefer a western handle and your dad's Wusthof, I have a hunch you might find German knives more to your liking.

                But everyone's hands are different -- I buy Wusthof exclusively, as the balance and the handle shape feel like an extension of my own hand -- crucial if you intend to do even a moderate amount of knifework. I have never bought a Henckels because I just don't like the feel of the handles.

                So do some test runs -- see what works best for YOU and your hands and the type of knifework that you do.

                Then go with the knives that feel "right" -- and you'll know it when you feel it.

                9 Replies
                1. re: sunshine842

                  the 'hand feel' is important (a co-worker once used the shoe metaphor for dating)

                  I like it when I can easily balance the tool on a single finger. equal weight in the blade and handle but
                  YMMV.

                  1. re: sunshine842

                    I see this advice often. And for the most part, I just can't agree with it. There are just so many factors in what makes a good knife and how a knife works for you beyond how it feels in your hand. And while most people can get used to a knife that feels odd in your hand at first, a knife that doesn't sharpen well or hold its edge well or has poor geometry isn't going to get any better after you buy it. Picking knives with 'feel' as the main deciding factor eliminates so many other important aspects of a knife, and focuses on one of the only traits that matters less the more you use a knife.

                    On top of that, it keeps many people from trying out the best made knives in their price range, since many of the better Japanese knives simply aren't available locally for test drives to a lot of people in the West.

                    That said, the 'feel' argument isn't entirely without merit. But it really comes down to being very important for just some users of knives. The more esoteric and specialized your grip is, the harder it can be to adjust to different knives. If you use a medium to high pinch-grip, adjusting to different knives tends to be easier. Likewise, if you're arthritic, or have chronic wrist problems, or extremely large or small hands, feel can wind up being more important. And lastly, if you're quite skillful and comfortable with only one style of knife (usually meaning you've used it professionally for years or, more often, decades) then the benefits of another knife might be outweighed by your comfort and skill with what you know.

                    All that said, if a Wusthof feels comfortable to you with it's middle of the road feel, balance, and handle contouring, there are very few reasons why you couldn't adjust to most of the knives mentioned in this thread with minimal discomfort. There are a few knives that have more distinct feels - Globals, Shun's Ken Onions, etc. But most translate well from one user to another.

                    1. re: cowboyardee

                      I didn't that fit was the only factor to be considered -- but an expensive knife that's all the rage is a waste of money if you hate using it and you reach for the Walmart Chicago Cutlery because you're mad at yourself for dropping bucks on a knife you don't like to use.

                      Fit is important -- just like all the other factors.

                      1. re: sunshine842

                        Don't get me wrong. I'm not only claiming that there are other factors beyond fit in choosing a knife. I'm claiming that, for most (but not all) users considering most (but not all) knives, fit is among the least important factors. It's often misleading in the store, ushering people toward whatever knife is the most like the knives they've used previously, and it keeps people from experimenting with different styles that can sometimes offer much bigger benefits once they've gotten used to them. Putting too much stock in minor differences in how a knife feels in the store is a mistake, IMO.

                      2. re: cowboyardee

                        I agree with this. Obviously, we don't want a knife which feels painful to hold or to use. However, I don't believe feel should be the first major criteria. As you said, there are many other factors, like the knife blade profile, knife steel hardness, edge retention...etc.

                        For me, I like to put an analogy to buying a car. You want a car which you can comfortable sit in. You definitely do not want a car seat which causes you pain, but comfortable seating is just one of the many many aspects of a good car. The engine, the acceleration, the safety, the maintenance, the fuel efficiency...etc.

                        1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                          I agree with you -- and have said as much (a couple of times, no less) -- but to put it in line with your example -- once upon a time when I was shopping for a new car, my head and all my research told me that a Toyota was the right car to buy.

                          Problem was, I couldn't see diddly squat any direction beyond 90 degrees to either side -- my range of vision was limited to a dangerous extent because I simply didn't fit the car. I couldn't see to back up, which eliminated parallel parking and extricating myself from any sort of a dead end, and I couldn't see to merge, no matter what I did with the wing mirrors or the seat adjustment. Since I had an extensive sales territory at the time, I didn't figure inviting trouble by buying a car that I felt left me half-blind any direction but straight ahead was a really good idea.

                          I ended up with a Nissan, which I drove for over a decade and a couple hundred thousand miles...and I'd buy another one if they still made that particular model. And it fit -- I could park and reverse and merge with zero problems, in all the time I had that car.

                          So fit matters. It's not the only consideration, nor is it the most important consideration, but you can't just blindly rush out and buy the hottest thing on the market without making sure that YOU can use it comfortably and safely.

                          And it's the same with knives...evaluate all the qualities -- the metallurgy, what you're going to use it for, etc., etc.,e tc. -- but a knife that doesn't fit and feel good in your hand has an unsettling tendency to be a dangerous knife -- or one that doesn't get used because it feels uncomfortable and unwieldy.

                        2. re: cowboyardee

                          I personally never worry about how it feels in my hand. I adapt to the knife quickly and I am not a line cook with the knife in my hand all day but do use them a lot for a home cook or several times a day. I remember when Tojiro DP was reported to have fit and finish issues but I haven't seen them and I own 3.

                          Any move to harder Japanese steel will require a small change in technique

                          I also suggest you first consider what you're willing to do to sharpen. The EdgePro Apex is the best jig out there. There is a lot more customizing now compaired to when I bought mine
                          Many high end Japanese stones are now cut to fit the EP. Hand sharpening is not hard but does have a steeper learning curve than the EP. I would rather have good sharpening tools and average knives than excellent knives and poor sharpening ability. No matter how good a knife, it sucks when it's dull. Don't shy away from carbon steel as well. It will teach you good habits of keeping you knife clean and dry. As this is now a habit for me I treat my SS the same as my carbons.

                          There is a lot of hype, fact and fiction in the world of home cuterlery. Do your homework and then jump in and begin to formulate your own opinions. Some cut to cook and some cook to cut. :-)

                          1. re: scubadoo97

                            Excellent post..... except that you probably didn't mean to address to cowboyardee, right? :)

                            Anyway, it is always great to hear from cowboyardee and your advise (the two person who taught me much about kitchen knives)

                            1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                              Thanks. I did mean to reply to the hand feel part of cowboy's post but expanded from there.

                      3. Toyopl,

                        Being relatively new to cooking and kitchen knives, I really would recommend against a Japanese Gyuto for a first descent knife. You really sound like a "classic German pattern" person so, I'd further recommend against being seduced by reading the praises of a Gyuto on Knife Forums or Foodie Forums. They are great knives but, not a great choice for everyone.

                        Don't laugh but, I recently bought a starter set of 3 Paula Deen knives at Wal-Mart while living in a long term rental casita with cheap dull stamped knives and a very basic kitchen. For $17, I must say they work pretty well. The knives claim some Japanese mystery steel (AUS-6/8 or similar?) and don't compare to my "good" knives in storage but they do get the job done. The nice thing about a set of 3 knives for ~$17 is that if they don't work out you haven't lost much.

                        If $300 is reasonable target budget, you really sound like someone who should seriously consider a "block set" of Wusthof or Zwilling Henckels premium knives. I personally prefer the French pattern in a chef's knife but, that's being pretty picky and the German pattern is well known and well respected so it is a great choice as well.

                        I strongly suggest you go to a kitchenware specialty shop and/or the big stores in the mall (Dillard's, Macy's, etc.) and HANDLE the Wusthof Classic and Henckels Professional "S" knives. You don't sound like a molded handle person so, the traditional 3 rivet handles of these two lines are probably going to serve you best. The Professional "S" handles are slightly more attractive to me then the Classics but, either would serve you very well for a lifetime with normal TLC.

                        As a counter point to your Tojiro DP comments, I have owned several for years and never "chipped" one. You certainly can chip it if you use it improperly but, they really aren't fragile or tender and can be a great choice for many people. I particularly like the reduced effort to cut things but, also find the "sticktion" from potato slices and similar things a little irritating at times. I also have knives costing several hundred dollars a piece which look a lot nicer, are finished nicer, and technically have superior blade steels but, in the end they do not cut that much differently from the cheaper Tojiro DP knives. You pay exponentially more for small improvements in performance after a point.

                        Consider your options carefully. There are a lot of options out there, a lot of good ones, but the wrong knife at any price is a waste of time and money. Knife Knutts are very passionate about their favorites but, multiple very experienced people can select very different knives for very valid reasons and one choice does not invalidate the other.

                        In summary, again you sound like a German Knife Block person. Carefully shop the knife differences in the block sets to get the ones you will use most (not the largest number but, the set of knives that you will ACTUALLY use). Wusthof Classic and Henckels Professional "S" is where your search should start IMHO.

                        7 Replies
                        1. re: Sid Post

                          <Being relatively new to cooking and kitchen knives, I really would recommend against a Japanese Gyuto for a first descent knife>

                          Now, now, I won't recommend against a Japanese Gyuto simply because a person is new to cooking or kitchen knives. Some people are ready for a thin blade hard steel Japanese knife on day one, and some are not. Most Japanese in Japan certainly do not have to first get a German knife before getting a Japanese Gyuto or Santoku. They already have the mentality to start using a Japanese hard steel knife.

                          <You really sound like a "classic German pattern" person so>

                          I agree. There is something in the original post by toyopal which concern me about switching to Japanese knives. Obviously, I do not know him in person, but based on what was written, he does sound like a classic German knife user. Thus I wrote: "Based on what you have said thus far, you may want to either (1) stick with German knives or (2) pick a softer steel Japanese knives like Fujiwara (great entry level J-knife, in my opinion)"

                          In fact, I would state that a person with zero experience can go either with Japanese knife or German knife. It is the people who has been using German for awhile and developed certain mentality and bad habits have the tougher time to transform to Japanese knives. German knives are much more forgiving for any so-called bad habits. For example, if you are used to putting knives into automatic dishwashers, if you are custom to twisting motion on a cutting board...etc..etc.

                          1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                            "German knives are much more forgiving for any so-called bad habits. For example, if you are used to putting knives into automatic dishwashers, if you are custom to twisting motion on a cutting board...etc..etc."

                            I tell home users that all the time. IMHO for the typical American kitchen use and environment German, or Germanesque steel, knives are the best balance of all metal properties. Yes I know there are Japanese with better cutting abilities but will suffer more from a bad thing than a German.

                            I see far more Germans that are dull with no chipping compared to Japanese steel that is dull and chipped. They are easier to fix also.

                            Jim

                            1. re: knifesavers

                              < IMHO for the typical American kitchen use and environment German, or Germanesque steel, knives are the best balance of all metal properties>

                              I don't know. The reason I am saying this is that today American home kitchen is not like 50 years ago or 100 years ago. In my opinion, most home cooks do not do most of the tough work at home. We tend to buy meat from supermarkets which has been debone or segmented. So most of the time, what we cut at home is pretty soft.

                              <I see far more Germans that are dull with no chipping compared to Japanese steel that is dull and chipped>

                              I have to agree.

                            2. re: Chemicalkinetics

                              "<Being relatively new to cooking and kitchen knives, I really would recommend against a Japanese Gyuto for a first descent knife>

                              Now, now, I won't recommend against a Japanese Gyuto simply because a person is new to cooking or kitchen knives. Some people are ready for a thin blade hard steel Japanese knife on day one, and some are not. Most Japanese in Japan certainly do not have to first get a German knife before getting a Japanese Gyuto or Santoku. They already have the mentality to start using a Japanese hard steel knife."

                              My comments were really targeted to this specific user but, in general they apply.

                              Descent Japanese knives in the bottom of sink often lead to blood in the water. If you use them like a German chef's knife, you can break tips and chip them. It happens.

                              New users with the right mindset will do just fine with any knife. Most new knife users do not fit this user profile.

                              1. re: Sid Post

                                <New users with the right mindset will do just fine with any knife. Most new knife users do not fit this user profile.>

                                That is the thing. If someone is really new, then they can easily start with Japanese or German knives.

                                Problem only occurs after someone started grow into certain bad habits. Let me put it this way. I think it is much easier to teach a 16 years old first time home cook how to use a Japanese thin blade knife than to correct a 60 years old person who has been using German knives and rock chopping techniques all his/her life.

                                1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                  I agree with catching someone early. The reality with my family and friends is that they were never really taught knife handling or skills. Prying frozen things apart, cutting into bones, etc. were all things I observed as a child. Some even used knives as can openers! After college when I could afford a decent knife I learned how to treat it properly. I can't say the same for family members and hide my knives when they come over and I make sure I give them knives that will bend and not break or snap that won't cut them easily.

                                  1. re: Sid Post

                                    "used knives as can openers"

                                    Sid, I am now gouging out my eyes and running around yelling. (is there a standard internet acronym for that?) yikes, that's like using a good wood chisel to open and stir paint cans, it's like flossing with long strips of aluminum foil.

                                    I'm not terribly spiritual, and feel there are many paths to the Godhead, but that one leads in another direction. <eccch>

                          2. If you like the Tojiro DP series but want a little more resistance to chipping, consider the Fujiwara FKM:
                            http://www.chefknivestogo.com/fufkmgy...
                            It's very affordable, and is very similar to the Tojiro in most ways. It's what I bought my mom when looking to upgrade her knives.

                            The chippiness of the Tojiro and Japanese knives in general is often overstated. I've been using J knives, including the tojiro and some even more chip-prone than the Tojiro, for years and never experienced a major chip. The biggest causes of chipping - chopping through bone and ice, banging the blade against other knives in the drawer, dropping the knife, using a glass cutting board - are very easy to avoid. Just carving chicken meat from the bone isn't going to chip your blade unless you're a heck of a lot rougher about the job than most people are. The bigger and harder to avoid problem comes when people are used to using a fast rocking motion with A LOT of pressure and then try to translate that into using Japanese knives. It's really just those people who don't/can't alter their cutting motion and pressure that have real problems with Japanese knives.

                            An alternate strategy for you: spend your money on sharpening (perhaps the edgepro you mentioned above, though I could give you more suggestions if you're interested), and just buy yourself an inexpensive but very functional forschner/victorinox blade. Sharpening is far more important than what knife you get. And besides, you can always upgrade your knives in the future, and when you do, you'll get so much more out of em if you're an experienced sharpener.

                            Other than that, I agree with Chem's advice elsewhere on this thread. Him and I generally agree on knife advice, but he typically beats me to the punch.

                            17 Replies
                            1. re: cowboyardee

                              <perhaps the edgepro you mentioned above, though I could give you more suggestions if you're interested>

                              I want to know. I usually suggest Spyderco sharpmaker for maintain knives at a low price, but I realized that they have increased the price from $40 to $60 yesterday.

                              <Him and I generally agree on knife advice, but he typically beats me to the punch.>

                              Babycowboy slowing you down. :) Although .... is he still a baby? Yeah, he will be a baby until he is like 3-4 (in my definition).

                              1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                If the OP is interested in mid-high end knives, and especially if he is considering Japanese knives, the only solid options are:
                                - A skilled professional
                                - Hand sharpening on whetstones (or even sandpaper)
                                - The edgepro (the wicked edge system is also good, but the very similar edgepro seems to be a bit better in enough respects that I can't recommend it unless you get a great deal on one)
                                - The sharpmaker (and this, as you know, has problems sharpening very dull knives, and also is not set at ideal angles for many Japanese knives - still a good system though).

                                If Japanese knives are out of the picture, there are other options. I'm sure you've seen me mention em before.

                                Cowbaby is about 20 months now. He is an adorable but volatile little tyrant. ;)

                                1. re: cowboyardee

                                  <He is an adorable but volatile little tyrant. ;)>

                                  You need another baby to teach him about boundary.

                                  <Cowbaby is about 20 months now>

                                  you know.....Here is the problem, the common definition would have: Cowbaby sounds like a COW. cowboy is a HUMAN.

                                  1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                    but cowboyardeebaby just sounds like you're blubbering. Or yodeling.

                                    1. re: sunshine842

                                      so what's wrong with yodeling? it's a good way to kill time while driving to the nearest place to stock up on some new Henckels.

                                      or blubbering for that matter (hey anybody can get a case of the William Hurts sometimes)

                                    2. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                      "You need another baby to teach him about boundary."
                                      ________
                                      Because of where i live, it is hard to get him as much time with same-age playmates as I'd like. Which means he gets a lot of his socialization from the dog. And while the dog is very good-natured, he is also a freaking maniac who has foiled several professionals in their attempts to get him to chill the **** out.

                                      1. re: cowboyardee

                                        sounds like you need to start saving up for counseling now. Not sure yet if I mean for you, the dog or the youngun.

                                        1. re: sunshine842

                                          I'm exaggerating for comedic effect - the youngun is doing very well. The dog IS a maniac, but in dog years, he's already spent more time in 'counselling' than Alvy Singer.

                                          1. re: cowboyardee

                                            HA! Alvy's classroom flashback just went through my head. "I'm into leatha'"

                                            but while we're on movies, as long as cowboyardeebabyboy doesn't start barking (much) I wouldn't worry. or move to Scandinavia.

                                        2. re: cowboyardee

                                          <while the dog is very good-natured, he is also a freaking maniac who has foiled several professionals in their attempts to get him to chill the **** out.>

                                          Yeah, dogs get very excited when they see babies, and vice versa.

                                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMuy5...

                                  2. re: cowboyardee

                                    pardon me, but i just want to sneak in here real quick with a question that's been nagging me:
                                    can you "rock chop" with a japanese knife? maybe if you do it more gently?
                                    you know, the kind of thing jacques pepin demonstrates all the time when mincing garlic or parsley?

                                    sorry for the interruption, but inquiring mind wants to know. i had been doing this for years with a japanese knife i've had for a long time.

                                    thanks.

                                    1. re: linus

                                      <i had been doing this for years with a japanese knife i've had for a long time.>

                                      If you have been doing it, and it is working for you, then it is fine of course.

                                      In my experience, my Tojiro DP (a Japanese knife) got dull faster when I use rock chopping. It could still cut, but it got dull faster.

                                      Now, it is also important to clarify one thing. Everyone has a different definition of "sharp" and "dull". My today definition of sharpness is very different than that of 10 years ago. Ten years ago, I would consider a knife which can slice meat with some shearing as sharp. Today, I would only consider a knife which can push cut a tomato or paper as sharp. In short, what I consider as "dull" now is actually sharper than what I considered as "sharp" ten years ago.

                                      So my duller Tojiro after rock chopping is still very sharp by many people's definition, but I think a knife remain sharper if it is used for a different motion.

                                      1. re: linus

                                        Yes. The problem isn't so much rock-chopping itself but the fact that many people are used to doing it with German knives that are kinda dull and thick behind their edge, and those people also tend to rely on the curve of the German blade to guide their stroke. So they have a not-very-well-controlled stroke and they're used to applying a lot of pressure to force a dull, thick knife through whatever they're cutting. This is what gives Japanese knives problems. A smooth stroke without a lot of lateral wiggling and using no more pressure than is necessary is fine.

                                        Also keep in mind that some Japanese knives are sturdier than others. There's not much you could do to an Aritsugu A-type gyuto to damage it shy of throwing it in a woodchipper, for example. Whereas rock chopping with a usuba is typically more hazardous to the edge, and not really how the knife is designed anyway. Likewise, my Hiromoto gyuto is a much better and sturdier rock chopper than my Yusuke gyuto, mainly due to differences in the profiles of the two knives.

                                        1. re: cowboyardee

                                          It should be mentioned again that technique will change going from the European chef knife to a gyuto. I remember the knife sticking into my cutting board when I first started using a Japanese gyuto. I was using way more force than needed. That quickly changed.

                                          1. re: scubadoo97

                                            Yeah, now that you mentioned it. I do remember using a lot of force when I use my first good knife. I must have been using a lot of force back then because I do not remember sticking my knife into my cutting board for a long time now.

                                            1. re: Chemicalkinetics

                                              thanks to all you fine people for the informative answers.

                                              as far as "working" for me, i'm not so sure. after reading these boards for a few months, i'm thinking the knife does not have anything near the edge it should.

                                              when i get a chance, i'm going to take it to a fellow who specializes in sharpening japanese knives.

                                        2. re: linus

                                          The lower tip and thinner profile really excels with a 300mm Gyuto. It is so much easier and takes less effort. When my wrists hurt and my fingers are numb this was my best option. It really was easy on my hands and wrists compared to other methods and options.

                                      2. What should be long evident is that for every opinion on...anything...there is an equal and opposite opinion.

                                        It's probably nobody's first choice but mine, but the Chicago Cutlery knives that I bought when my first marriage broke up 20+ years ago are still doing just great, even with near daily use. And they didnt cost an arm & a leg.

                                        6 Replies
                                        1. re: Fydeaux

                                          The USA made CC of old far outshine the Chinese made CC of today.

                                          I really like the old 103s CC steak knives.

                                          Jim

                                          1. re: knifesavers

                                            Just for a moment, I thought CC means carbon steel, but now I figure that you mean Chicago Cutlery. Chicago Cutlery knives made in China probably are not very good, but a few people here claim that these new knives are still good value knives. Not sure.

                                            1. re: knifesavers

                                              ? Soft stainless steel hollow ground knives? Waste of money IMHO.

                                              1. re: Sid Post

                                                Over 20 years with near daily use and still doing fine. Waste of money? Not IMHO.

                                                1. re: Fydeaux

                                                  I just realize something funny that you support Chicago Cutlery instead of Dexter Russell which is a much larger cutlery company with greater sale volume.

                                                  Chicago Cutlery is from Chicago, Illinois. Dexter Russell is based Massachusetts. :)

                                                  I think I know who you voted for the presidential election. :P

                                                  Just kidding.

                                                  1. re: Fydeaux

                                                    My Chicago Cutlery went to the cutlery cemetery at my home long ago. They really weren't very good for the way I used them. For me, that money could have been spent much better on a knife that fit my lifestyle better.