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Flexibility of food names

cresyd Nov 5, 2012 02:22 AM

I've seen a number of posts related to sushi and thoughts of what should and should not be called sushi. I don't have nearly the emotional response to that - however when I hear terms such as "black bean humus", I bristle.

Humus (in Arabic) means chickpea, and in most humus places it is possible (and common) to order humus (the spread) with humus (the whole chickpea). Therefore the idea of humus made without chickpeas is no longer humus to me. I get the idea that the word brings to mind a "creamy spread" - but personally the expansion of the word doesn't work for me. In my world there will never be a white bean walnut humus. (Not that it can't be a tasty/yummy spread - but I won't call it humus)

What are the food terms where you hold onto the traditional definition of the word? Which ones are you less possesive of?

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  1. h
    Harters RE: cresyd Nov 5, 2012 03:05 AM

    Using houmous as the example, I think it's simply menu shorthand describing a dish in a way that customers will readily understand. Most folk will know what houmous is, so to describe something as a "black bean houmous" is easier than describing it as a "black bean dip, similar in texture and seasoning to houmous"

    That said, folk who call a dish using beef "shepherd's pie" deserve to be taken down a dark alley and be given a good talking to . Or maybe worse. ;-)

    4 Replies
    1. re: Harters
      paulj RE: Harters Nov 5, 2012 12:40 PM

      which is nearly as bad as using lamb in 'squab pie', or bangers in place of toads

      1. re: Harters
        Kalivs RE: Harters Aug 10, 2013 09:56 PM

        I've had vegetarian shepherd's pie & vegetarian steak & kidney pie. At that point in time, the names is more of a distraction.

        1. re: Kalivs
          paulj RE: Kalivs Aug 10, 2013 10:09 PM

          Given the American inclination to label any casserole with a mash potato topping, a shepherd's pie, it's not surprising that places make a vegetarian shepherds pie. TVP or even vegetarian chili would work as the base.

          It's harder to imagine what might be in 'vegetarian steak and kidney pie'. The only vegetarian thing that I've had that comes close to kidney in texture is Chinese gluten products (mock duck, etc).

        2. re: Harters
          Chatsworth RE: Harters Aug 12, 2013 06:16 PM

          I forgive myself for calling it shepherds' pie because I reckon the shepherd "borrowed" one of his neighbour's cows to make it rather than slaughter one of his own sheep.

        3. m
          Maximilien RE: cresyd Nov 5, 2012 03:46 AM

          What if it is Humus (the spread) made with Humus (the bean) with additional Black Beans ?

          I think that Humus (spread) has become the generic term for a class of spread made with beans (different from a white beans dip).

          The same thing with Pesto (which is basically a "paste"), but "purists" will tell you that it is only made with such and such ingredients.

          Same thing with "Sushi" ... which as become a generic term for whatever is "rolled" (for the sake of simplicity) in nori with rice.

          Personally, I don't really care; as long as it tastes good, I'm ok with that.


          1 Reply
          1. re: Maximilien
            cresyd RE: Maximilien Nov 5, 2012 04:01 AM

            To me, if the spread was made with both chickpeas and blackbeans - I would be fine with that being called humus, as nontraditional as it would be. Chickpea just needs to be a significant component of the spread (by my definition).

          2. twyst RE: cresyd Nov 5, 2012 03:55 AM

            Im guilty of bastardizing quite a few food terms I must admit. The one that gets on my nerves is confit. ITS NOT POSSIBLE TO MAKE GARLIC CONFIT OR TOMATO CONFIT ETC ETC SO JUST STOP IT ALREADY. Ok, glad I got that off my chest. I realize that the meaning of the word has slowly changed, but to me a confit has to be cooked in its OWN fat.

            15 Replies
            1. re: twyst
              chefj RE: twyst Nov 5, 2012 06:14 PM

              That is not true.
              You can make Confit of virtually anything. The word means to Preserve.
              I French you need to say what kind of Confit you are talking about Ie: Confit de Canard, Confit de Tomates,Confit d'échalotes. You can also in other things than fats, Confit au Vinaigre, Sugar or Honey

              1. re: chefj
                thimes RE: chefj Nov 5, 2012 07:43 PM

                I don't have a good culinary source with me right now but I have to agree that the proper use of confit is to cook a meat in its own fat. Now over time that may have changed but I think those changed are a in conflict with the original meaning (the topic of the thread).

                1. re: thimes
                  PSZaas RE: thimes Nov 5, 2012 07:46 PM

                  You can agree all you want, but it doesn't make it so. Just think of "confiture," which is fruit preserves. To confit something is to preserve it.

                  1. re: PSZaas
                    kubasd RE: PSZaas Nov 5, 2012 08:09 PM

                    The OED dictionary defines it as cooking meat slowly in its own fat, but also as coming from the French ‘conserved’, from confire ‘ to prepare’.

                    1. re: kubasd
                      chefj RE: kubasd Nov 6, 2012 09:50 AM

                      See sunshine842 below

                      1. re: chefj
                        kubasd RE: chefj Nov 6, 2012 07:38 PM

                        yeah, I'd posted it prior to that reply, but it's good to see people agree :)

                    2. re: PSZaas
                      thimes RE: PSZaas Nov 6, 2012 04:48 AM

                      Hmmm. Good point. I'm hanging my coat on the "not a French culinary language historian" on this one and bowing out.

                    3. re: thimes
                      chefj RE: thimes Nov 6, 2012 09:48 AM

                      Actually the opposite has happened. The word started off simply meaning "preserved" in any way, salt, fat, sugar, vinegar and has narrowed over the centuries.

                  2. re: twyst
                    sunshine842 RE: twyst Nov 6, 2012 01:38 AM

                    if that's the case, you have a big job ahead of you, taking on half the prepared-foods industry in France.

                    The word "confit" is used to describe pretty much anything preserved -- and it's their word, so I reckon they're the ones who know how to use it.

                    1. re: sunshine842
                      twyst RE: sunshine842 Nov 6, 2012 07:07 AM

                      "if that's the case, you have a big job ahead of you, taking on half the prepared-foods industry in France.

                      The word "confit" is used to describe pretty much anything preserved -- and it's their word, so I reckon they're the ones who know how to use it."

                      While I agree that confit is used to describe everything now, unless I am greatly mistaken this has not always been the case. Cooking bibles like escoffier and larousse only contain recipes for confit that is cooked in its own fat, and its also how it is taught in CIA and le cordon Bleu curriculums.

                      1. re: twyst
                        lcool RE: twyst Nov 6, 2012 07:46 AM

                        Sorry to disagree,older editions in English,pre 90's and all of mine in French of Escoffier , Larousse and Le Cordon Bleu spanning decades use "confit",treat the word in proper French.

                        1. re: lcool
                          twyst RE: lcool Nov 6, 2012 07:54 AM

                          Then I shall defer to you as my newer versions only list duck and goose confit.

                          1. re: twyst
                            lcool RE: twyst Nov 6, 2012 08:26 AM

                            Interesting,my 2006 and 2008 editions of garde manger & professional chef add,one for salmon and one for pork.Using a phase ,meat,traditionally goose or duck,to include X,as above.

                            1. re: lcool
                              chefj RE: lcool Nov 6, 2012 09:52 AM

                              They are American Books and it is a French technique and word.

                              1. re: chefj
                                lcool RE: chefj Nov 6, 2012 10:03 AM

                                going back up to twyst's post above and mine I was remarking about the inconstant,fickle differences between two modern US editions,not about older US or French books discussed above that.

                  3. l
                    lcool RE: cresyd Nov 5, 2012 04:27 AM

                    I am fairly pissy about it,it is a long list.Just a few here.
                    Fajita........is a charted,butcher cut of BEEF.....skirt steak
                    London Broil .....is a recipe.....NOT a cut of beef
                    Sushi ..... is rice

                    At my age I've seen the marketing gimmick bastardization of much.As globalization continues to play a larger and larger role,with every manner of ingredient and culture cross pollinating I think to expect more and get used to it,as long as AVA's,DOCG's and other historic heritage designations are respected totally.

                    2 Replies
                    1. re: lcool
                      paulj RE: lcool Nov 5, 2012 11:41 AM

                      'fajita' is a little strip (diminutive of faja).

                      But it is a good example of the evolution of a name, from a regional use of beef trimmings (e.g. skirt) to something that is common in restaurants around the country


                      The first time I had it was at a catered conference meal in Austin in the mid 1980s. There is was the whole grilled piece of meat (I can't guaranteed that they used skirt or not), sliced thin, and served with tortillas and the fixings. Strips of beef (much less other meats) grilled and served on a hot skillet is definitely an evolution from that.

                      1. re: paulj
                        lcool RE: paulj Nov 5, 2012 02:54 PM

                        Like nearly everything listed in this thread,we just have to get used to it.

                    2. mamachef RE: cresyd Nov 5, 2012 05:46 AM

                      I had an almost-visceral reaction last year when someone posted a question about "Meat Hamentaschen." Now, I don't have a problem with someone calling latkes "potato pancakes." Chopped liver? Call it that, or call it chicken liver pate. Hell, call it Gehatke Leiber, if you want to. But Meat Hamentaschen? No, no no. That's just WRONG. So wrong it can never be made right. :)

                      9 Replies
                      1. re: mamachef
                        cresyd RE: mamachef Nov 5, 2012 05:48 AM

                        Oh that sounds horrible...

                        1. re: mamachef
                          melpy RE: mamachef Nov 5, 2012 08:44 AM

                          Now I want to eat Hamentashen.

                          1. re: melpy
                            mamachef RE: melpy Nov 5, 2012 01:50 PM

                            But not meat ones, right?

                            1. re: mamachef
                              melpy RE: mamachef Nov 5, 2012 02:59 PM

                              I'll pass on that.

                          2. re: mamachef
                            Wawsanham RE: mamachef Nov 6, 2012 06:31 AM

                            Why would there even conceivably be a problem with calling "potato pancakes" "potato pancakes?" I accept that some people call them "latkes." :)

                            1. re: Wawsanham
                              linguafood RE: Wawsanham Nov 6, 2012 09:04 AM

                              No. They're called Kartoffelpuffer.

                              1. re: Wawsanham
                                mamachef RE: Wawsanham Nov 6, 2012 10:15 AM

                                I said I didn't have a problem with it, but some people do. Different strokes. Peace.

                                1. re: Wawsanham
                                  merrua RE: Wawsanham Nov 9, 2012 08:28 AM

                                  boxty or potato cakes

                                  1. re: Wawsanham
                                    sunshine842 RE: Wawsanham Nov 9, 2012 09:48 AM

                                    You mean nobody's mentioned Rösti yet?

                                2. r
                                  redfish62 RE: cresyd Nov 5, 2012 05:54 AM

                                  "Martini" tends to set me off if the drink in question contains neither gin nor vermouth

                                  21 Replies
                                  1. re: redfish62
                                    Chinon00 RE: redfish62 Nov 5, 2012 06:01 AM

                                    Absolutely. And if you're afraid of how booze tastes you shouldn't be drinking in the first place.

                                    1. re: redfish62
                                      iluvcookies RE: redfish62 Nov 5, 2012 08:13 AM

                                      I can allow for vodka in a martini (James Bond does...) but apple, watermelon, chocolate? No, those are not martinis. They are frilly girl drinks served in a martini glass.

                                      1. re: iluvcookies
                                        Chinon00 RE: iluvcookies Nov 5, 2012 09:46 AM

                                        James Bond raising an apple or watermelon "martini" to his lips. Could you imagine?

                                        1. re: Chinon00
                                          iluvcookies RE: Chinon00 Nov 5, 2012 10:24 AM

                                          I can picture Connery's Bond looking at the drink with it's sugary rim, pulling out his Walther PPK and pointing it at the bartender. "What is the meaning of this? Did Blofeld put you up to this?"

                                          1. re: iluvcookies
                                            Uncle Bob RE: iluvcookies Nov 5, 2012 01:42 PM


                                            1. re: iluvcookies
                                              Violatp RE: iluvcookies Aug 10, 2013 10:40 PM

                                              Isn't, technically, the way Bond orders his martinis, wrong? I mean, they're not as good shaken, right? Because of the ice dilution?

                                              Anyway, though I DID once start a whole thread about it, I love love love girly fruity cocktails and I love them with plenty of alcohol. One doesn't necessarily preclude the other!

                                            2. re: Chinon00
                                              Midknight RE: Chinon00 Nov 6, 2012 07:15 AM

                                              "An Apple-choco-tini. Shaken, not stirred."
                                              I dunno. That seems to have a nice, suave ring to it, does it not? :D

                                              1. re: Midknight
                                                iluvcookies RE: Midknight Nov 6, 2012 07:31 AM

                                                Mabye for Moneypenny.... :)

                                                1. re: iluvcookies
                                                  Perilagu Khan RE: iluvcookies Nov 6, 2012 08:52 AM

                                                  Or Severin.

                                                  1. re: Perilagu Khan
                                                    iluvcookies RE: Perilagu Khan Nov 6, 2012 09:14 AM

                                                    Yes, that's more appropriate. Moneypenny could probably hold her own against 007.

                                                    1. re: iluvcookies
                                                      Harters RE: iluvcookies Nov 6, 2012 09:57 AM

                                                      "Moneypenny could probably hold her own against 007."

                                                      And often very much wanted to. ;-)

                                                      1. re: Harters
                                                        iluvcookies RE: Harters Nov 6, 2012 11:21 AM

                                                        Oh, Harters.....

                                            3. re: iluvcookies
                                              kubasd RE: iluvcookies Nov 5, 2012 05:02 PM


                                              1. re: iluvcookies
                                                chefj RE: iluvcookies Nov 5, 2012 06:18 PM

                                                That was the start of the slippery slope.

                                                1. re: iluvcookies
                                                  tastesgoodwhatisit RE: iluvcookies Nov 5, 2012 07:31 PM

                                                  Yeah - putting something in a martini glass does not make it a martini. I would define a classic martini as either gin or vodka, plus vermouth, and possibly an olive. I'll even allow for some alternate garnishes. But if you put put mango flavoured vodka, peach schnapps and a lemon candy in a martini glass, you've created a new drink.

                                                  On the other extreme - if you skip the garnish, and make it so dry that there's no vermouth in it, you're not drinking a martini - you're drinking vodka/gin out of a martini glass.

                                                  1. re: tastesgoodwhatisit
                                                    mamachef RE: tastesgoodwhatisit Nov 5, 2012 07:35 PM

                                                    A bartender where I worked used to make those straight-up gin or vodka versions whenever anyone asked for a very very very very dry martini. :)

                                                    1. re: mamachef
                                                      kubasd RE: mamachef Nov 5, 2012 08:10 PM

                                                      Same here! They made a great martini.... for those that actually liked martinis.

                                                    2. re: tastesgoodwhatisit
                                                      Perilagu Khan RE: tastesgoodwhatisit Nov 6, 2012 08:54 AM

                                                      Exactly. Although a lemon twist is also an acceptable garnish.

                                                  2. re: redfish62
                                                    sisterfunkhaus RE: redfish62 Nov 6, 2012 02:18 PM

                                                    This is my biggest word pet peeve. I can deal with vodka martinis, and even dirty martinis. But as a martini lover (both gin and vodka) I can't deal with fruity drinks being called martinis.

                                                    1. re: sisterfunkhaus
                                                      sr44 RE: sisterfunkhaus Nov 6, 2012 11:37 PM


                                                      1. re: sisterfunkhaus
                                                        Kalivs RE: sisterfunkhaus Aug 10, 2013 10:05 PM


                                                    2. Perilagu Khan RE: cresyd Nov 5, 2012 06:10 AM

                                                      Pesto made without basil as the primary green. To my mind, that's just not pesto.

                                                      Vegetarian "chili" is another.

                                                      16 Replies
                                                      1. re: Perilagu Khan
                                                        linguafood RE: Perilagu Khan Nov 5, 2012 08:28 AM

                                                        Funny. I made a fab parsley-pecorino-pistachio pesto once for a pasta dish. Mostly for alliteration purposes, of course.

                                                        Tasty, too.

                                                        1. re: Perilagu Khan
                                                          sunshine842 RE: Perilagu Khan Nov 6, 2012 01:40 AM

                                                          pesto just means paste -- as with "confit" above, you're going to have to take on half of Italy to win that battle.

                                                          1. re: sunshine842
                                                            melpy RE: sunshine842 Nov 6, 2012 02:54 AM

                                                            That is what I was going to say. However, if you don't clarify in English I will assume the flavors to be basil and pine but. All other variations should be qualified in some way.

                                                            1. re: sunshine842
                                                              Perilagu Khan RE: sunshine842 Nov 6, 2012 08:54 AM

                                                              De jure, that is correct. De facto, pesto is taken to mean an uncooked pasta sauce made from basil, olive oil, pine nuts, garlic and a hard Italian cheese.

                                                              1. re: Perilagu Khan
                                                                sunshine842 RE: Perilagu Khan Nov 6, 2012 08:55 AM

                                                                In English.

                                                                1. re: sunshine842
                                                                  Perilagu Khan RE: sunshine842 Nov 6, 2012 09:04 AM

                                                                  And what do Italians call what we Yanks term pesto? IIRC, when I was in Venice I ordered gnocchi a la pesto and received exactly what I would get if I ordered it in New York or Cleveland.

                                                                  1. re: Perilagu Khan
                                                                    linguafood RE: Perilagu Khan Nov 6, 2012 09:22 AM

                                                                    Basil pesto is generally referred to as pesto genovese, as it originates in Genoa (although it apparently has roots in North Africa and India).

                                                                    The more you know.... cue rainbow.

                                                                  2. re: sunshine842
                                                                    linguafood RE: sunshine842 Nov 6, 2012 09:06 AM

                                                                    But English is the only language we know, and the only language that matters '-)

                                                                    1. re: linguafood
                                                                      Perilagu Khan RE: linguafood Nov 6, 2012 09:06 AM

                                                                      It is the closest thing the human race has to a lingua franca. Much to the chagrin of the French. ;)

                                                                      1. re: Perilagu Khan
                                                                        sunshine842 RE: Perilagu Khan Nov 6, 2012 09:12 AM

                                                                        no chagrin on my part - I'm not French.

                                                                        1. re: sunshine842
                                                                          Perilagu Khan RE: sunshine842 Nov 6, 2012 09:16 AM

                                                                          I actually surmised as much. Your English is too, too good.

                                                                2. re: sunshine842
                                                                  linguafood RE: sunshine842 Nov 6, 2012 09:25 AM

                                                                  Actually, pesto is "the contracted past participle of the Genoese word pestâ (Italian: pestare), which means to pound, to crush".

                                                                  1. re: linguafood
                                                                    sunshine842 RE: linguafood Nov 6, 2012 09:33 AM

                                                                    I'll accept that.

                                                                    1. re: linguafood
                                                                      cheesemaestro RE: linguafood Nov 6, 2012 10:43 AM

                                                                      Yes. Technically, "pesto" only applies to something that has been pounded or ground into a paste, as with a mortar and pestle. Italian has other words for a paste that results from mixing things together: impasto and, sometimes, pasta, which, as we use the term in English, is just flour and water mixed to form a dough or paste, then shaped and cooked.

                                                                      We need to be cautious when we rely on etymology to tell us how a word can be used, as over time, or in a particular context, the word may have taken on a different or a more restricted meaning, as is the case with "pesto." Likewise, in the discussion about "confit" earlier in this thread, it's worth pointing out that the words "confection" and "confectionery" both come from the same Latin root words as "confit": cum (= with) and facere (=to do or to make). Nonetheless, despite the common derivation, they can't be used interchangeably. We don't call duck parts preserved in duck fat a confection, nor do we refer to a box of bonbons as a confit.

                                                                      The interesting question for me is how far we can deviate from what we understand the standard definition of a word to be and still be able to use that word. In the case of pesto, I would have no problem substituting cilantro for the classic basil and walnuts for pine nuts and still calling the result "pesto." That is probably because I haven't violated the basic formula of fresh green herb + nuts + garlic + cheese + oil. However, if I decided to pound some cannellini beans and garlic into a paste, I would hesitate to call that "pesto," since, to my mind, it diverges too much from how I would normally use that word.

                                                                      1. re: cheesemaestro
                                                                        sunshine842 RE: cheesemaestro Nov 6, 2012 10:51 AM

                                                                        I bought a few jars of a walnut pesto that is to die for.

                                                                        But you're right -- beans then makes it too far out of the 'circle".

                                                                        1. re: cheesemaestro
                                                                          cresyd RE: cheesemaestro Nov 6, 2012 10:55 AM

                                                                          Well, then you could call it hummus - but I guess it would be my job to complain :)

                                                                          Traditionally, hummus is made by pounding the ingredients with these very large mortar and pestles.

                                                                  2. t
                                                                    thimes RE: cresyd Nov 5, 2012 06:29 AM

                                                                    Osso Buco is one of mine.

                                                                    It is (of course in my opinion) by definition braised shank - thus the literal "bone hole" translation. If it doesn't have the bone, or the "hole" and marrow then how is it Osso Buco. If it is just braised meat, then it is just braised meat not Osso Buco.

                                                                    1. Gio RE: cresyd Nov 5, 2012 06:34 AM

                                                                      My bete noir is Marinara Sauce. Not gravy. A true Marinara Sauce consists of:
                                                                      Olive Oil
                                                                      Sea Salt & Black Pepper
                                                                      Fresh Basil
                                                                      Pecorino Romano Cheese
                                                                      Period. No carrots, no onion, no sugar, no nuttin' else.

                                                                      4 Replies
                                                                      1. re: Gio
                                                                        jjjrfoodie RE: Gio Nov 5, 2012 08:48 AM

                                                                        Oh, but what type and consistaqncy of the toh-moh-toes?

                                                                        Fresh? If fresh, I assmue plumb/romas?
                                                                        San Marzanos?
                                                                        If san marzanos, Cali or Italian?
                                                                        If whole canned, crushed by hand? Or food mill? Or something else?

                                                                        Lots of "if's" and "ism's " in what you typed Mssr/Madame/Mlle Gio.

                                                                        LOTS of if's and ism's.


                                                                        1. re: jjjrfoodie
                                                                          Gio RE: jjjrfoodie Nov 5, 2012 11:12 AM

                                                                          Can be... LOL

                                                                          "Fresh? If fresh, I assmue plumb/romas?"
                                                                          Can be plums. Can be Romas. Can be 'other' also.

                                                                          "San Marzanos?"
                                                                          Can be, though I don't like them.

                                                                          "If san marzanos, Cali or Italian?"
                                                                          Italiano first, California if necessary. Or do you mean Cali, Colombia?

                                                                          "If whole canned, crushed by hand?"
                                                                          Can be

                                                                          "Or food mill?"
                                                                          Can be

                                                                          "Or something else?"
                                                                          What else ya got?

                                                                          "Lots of "if's" and "ism's " in what you typed Mssr/Madame/Mlle Gio."

                                                                          Signed, Senora Gio

                                                                        2. re: Gio
                                                                          greygarious RE: Gio Nov 5, 2012 01:49 PM

                                                                          True, marinara sauce is not gravy. Neither is Italian tomato sauce containing meat. Gravy is a relatively small amount of meaty sauce made from the drippings/fond of cooked meat, thickened with a starch and slightly extended via addition of an alcoholic beverage and/or dairy in liquid form. Rarely, another liquid like coffee or fruit juice may be involved, but no tomato and not in a large volume relative to the amount meat it accompanies.;-) Sort of kidding, but after moving to MA from my native Long Island, and also having lived in western NY, I had NO idea why my coworker said she was making what I understood to be spaghetti covered in turey gravy for Christmas. I will never use the term "gravy" in reference to pasta sauce.

                                                                          But I certainly recognize that there are cultural and ethnic influences on food names and that often, the incorrect term is a useful shorthand explaining what the preparation is like, e.g. watermelon carpaccio. This is going to be thinly sliced, and covered with some sort of transparent, pourable dressing or marinade.

                                                                          1. re: greygarious
                                                                            paulj RE: greygarious Nov 5, 2012 02:45 PM


                                                                            "In French meat cookery, jus is roughly equivalent to honestly made thin gravy in the British tradition"
                                                                            Oxford Companion to Food, Alan Davidson

                                                                            but in Italian-American tradition ...

                                                                        3. b
                                                                          beevod RE: cresyd Nov 5, 2012 07:17 AM

                                                                          Head cheese.

                                                                          3 Replies
                                                                          1. re: beevod
                                                                            sunshine842 RE: beevod Nov 6, 2012 01:42 AM

                                                                            if you call it fromage de tete, it sounds better.

                                                                            1. re: sunshine842
                                                                              Maximilien RE: sunshine842 Nov 6, 2012 04:02 AM

                                                                              I believe it is translated as "Tête Fromagée" ?

                                                                              1. re: Maximilien
                                                                                sunshine842 RE: Maximilien Nov 6, 2012 04:23 AM

                                                                                No. It's Fromage de Tête. Cheese from the head (loosely, "headcheese") -- not cheesed head, which is what you wrote.

                                                                                Neither one of them are cheese, really.

                                                                          2. NonnieMuss RE: cresyd Nov 5, 2012 07:47 AM

                                                                            "Bacon" and "burger". If you have to qualify it with "veggie", "turkey" or any other word, I don't want it. Also "Slider" - a restaurant near me serves chicken cordon bleu sliders. That's not a slider! A slider is a gross/delicious little burger! Also restaurants take great liberties with the word "butter". If it's margarine or spread, you shouldn't be allowed to put "butter" on the menu.

                                                                            But then again if I mention "champagne" and someone pipes up with the "sparkling wine" factoid, it drives me nuts. I try to keep my little neuroses to myself.

                                                                            2 Replies
                                                                            1. re: NonnieMuss
                                                                              mamachef RE: NonnieMuss Nov 5, 2012 08:13 AM

                                                                              We didn't keep full Kosher when I was growing up, but butter was never on the table due to some neurosis about the milk/meat combo. So, if you asked for butter? Wasn't going to be passed until you asked for the margarine.

                                                                              1. re: NonnieMuss
                                                                                sisterfunkhaus RE: NonnieMuss Nov 6, 2012 02:23 PM

                                                                                I specifically think of a slider as a White Castle burger.

                                                                              2. r
                                                                                redfish62 RE: cresyd Nov 5, 2012 07:52 AM

                                                                                How about fish names. Going from "Dolphin" to "Mahi" was somewhat understandable because a lot of people don't know the difference between a mammal and a fish, but why did we go from "Yellowfin Tuna" to "Ahi Tuna"?

                                                                                "Yellowfin Tuna" is a perfectly good name.

                                                                                17 Replies
                                                                                1. re: redfish62
                                                                                  chefj RE: redfish62 Nov 5, 2012 06:22 PM

                                                                                  Those are just the Hawaiian names.
                                                                                  There are many others for both of those fish.

                                                                                  1. re: chefj
                                                                                    fldhkybnva RE: chefj Nov 6, 2012 08:47 AM

                                                                                    This was my general understanding as well. In Hawaii, tuna is referred to as ahi and generally refers to bigeye tuna. However, as bigeye and yellowfin are fairly similar, on the mainland they have come to be used interchangeably.

                                                                                    1. re: fldhkybnva
                                                                                      redfish62 RE: fldhkybnva Nov 6, 2012 09:28 AM

                                                                                      I've seen it mostly as Ahi here in the southeast ever since the seared tuna with sesame seeds dish became popular, back when it was mostly eaten in the form of a grilled steak it was Yellowfin.

                                                                                      Now even the frozen Yellowfin is often referred to as Ahi.

                                                                                      Have no idea what Hawaii has to do with the southest.

                                                                                      1. re: redfish62
                                                                                        sunshine842 RE: redfish62 Nov 6, 2012 09:37 AM

                                                                                        I started using mahi instead of dolphin about the time I got sick and tired of explaining No, it's not flipper - IT'S A FISH.

                                                                                        Even in Florida, where mahi run thick all the way around the coastline and contribute a not-insignificant amount to the state economy (charters, table), people think you're eating the mammal if you say "dolphin".

                                                                                        There are a few folks in the Keys who say dolphin and know it means fish...but they're a minority.

                                                                                        1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                          chefj RE: sunshine842 Nov 6, 2012 09:54 AM

                                                                                          We had the same problem in New England and the Mid Atlantic.

                                                                                        2. re: redfish62
                                                                                          fldhkybnva RE: redfish62 Nov 6, 2012 11:13 AM

                                                                                          The consumption of raw and seared tuna is very popular in Hawaii and from my understanding has only recently become popular here among the general public. As such, the use of ahi as used in Hawaii has been adopted even if the tuna used in a dish is yellowfin and not bigeye tuna.

                                                                                    2. re: redfish62
                                                                                      Violatp RE: redfish62 Aug 10, 2013 10:42 PM

                                                                                      Dolphin is mahi????? Really? People eat dolphin??? Damn. I mean, I'm a hard core carnivore and have eaten my share of fuzzy wuzzy lambs, but dolphin...I couldn't do it.

                                                                                      1. re: Violatp
                                                                                        sunshine842 RE: Violatp Aug 11, 2013 07:02 AM

                                                                                        Yes, to all of the above.

                                                                                        There's a saltwater pelagic species called a dolphin -- it's most assuredly a fish (a beautiful turquoise, emerald and gold one, no less) and it absolutely good eating. Folks in the Florida Keys call it dolphin.

                                                                                        The name was adapted to mahi-mahi (the Hawaiian name) to keep people from being labeled horrible evil bastards by people who didn't realize that dolphin fish isn't Flipper.


                                                                                        but yes, some Asian cultures still eat dolphin, the mammal version. It's illegal most other places.

                                                                                        1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                          Violatp RE: sunshine842 Aug 11, 2013 07:29 AM

                                                                                          You learn something new, etc., etc.

                                                                                          1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                            sandylc RE: sunshine842 Aug 12, 2013 08:57 AM

                                                                                            Speaking of mahi-mahi, why have people dropped the second "mahi" in the last several years? I frequently see and hear about "mahi" now.

                                                                                            1. re: sandylc
                                                                                              paulj RE: sandylc Aug 12, 2013 11:55 AM

                                                                                              I can imagine several reasons:

                                                                                              'mahi' doesn't mean anything else in English, so there is no confusion if the 2nd word is dropped

                                                                                              the repetition does not mean anything in English. If anything it sounds childish.

                                                                                              I see on Wiki that it means 'very strong'. If so, may be the repetition is the Hawaiian equivalent to 'very', an intensifier. But grammatical features like this seldom carry over from one language to another. Consider for example the confusion of Italian plurals.

                                                                                              1. re: paulj
                                                                                                sandylc RE: paulj Aug 12, 2013 12:01 PM

                                                                                                All good points, as usual!

                                                                                                1. re: paulj
                                                                                                  DeppityDawg RE: paulj Aug 12, 2013 06:41 PM

                                                                                                  There may also be influence from "ahi", discussed just above. In the opposite direction, there are people who say "ahi-ahi", haha hihi.

                                                                                                  1. re: DeppityDawg
                                                                                                    sandylc RE: DeppityDawg Aug 12, 2013 06:54 PM

                                                                                                    Ahi is another interesting word. It's the Hawaiian name for albacore. Great marketing scheme to differentiate it from the albacore we all know and love from the can.

                                                                                                    1. re: sandylc
                                                                                                      chefj RE: sandylc Aug 13, 2013 02:45 PM

                                                                                                      I do not think that is true.
                                                                                                      Ahi refers to either Thunnus Albacares or Thunnus Obesus
                                                                                                      The Canned Tuna marked as Albacore is Thunnus Alalunga

                                                                                                      1. re: chefj
                                                                                                        sandylc RE: chefj Aug 13, 2013 04:07 PM


                                                                                                        1. re: sandylc
                                                                                                          DeppityDawg RE: sandylc Aug 13, 2013 04:18 PM

                                                                                                          That PDF is a fact sheet for "_tombo_ ahi". The "tombo" part of the name is Japanese, while "ahi" is used here as a generic term for "tuna". The name "ahi" by itself has a more specific meaning. From the same website:

                                                                                                          "In Hawaii, 'Ahi' refers to two species, the Bigeye Tuna and the Yellowfin Tuna."

                                                                                                          In other words: what chefj said.

                                                                                        2. ipsedixit RE: cresyd Nov 5, 2012 07:55 AM



                                                                                          18 Replies
                                                                                          1. re: ipsedixit
                                                                                            lcool RE: ipsedixit Nov 5, 2012 09:35 AM

                                                                                            of turkey pastrami

                                                                                            1. re: ipsedixit
                                                                                              NonnieMuss RE: ipsedixit Nov 5, 2012 10:09 AM

                                                                                              Agreed. The word "sammie" makes my skin crawl. I'm also not fond of menus playfully using "Sammich", but nothing is as bad as "sammies".

                                                                                              1. re: NonnieMuss
                                                                                                jmcarthur8 RE: NonnieMuss Nov 5, 2012 05:50 PM

                                                                                                Brekkies is a close second in the skin-crawling department. If you tell me you had brekkies while having a convo on your vacay I will probably toss my sammies.

                                                                                                1. re: jmcarthur8
                                                                                                  Perilagu Khan RE: jmcarthur8 Nov 5, 2012 06:47 PM

                                                                                                  Heh. I heard that.

                                                                                                  1. re: jmcarthur8
                                                                                                    sisterfunkhaus RE: jmcarthur8 Nov 6, 2012 02:25 PM

                                                                                                    I had to look that up. If someone said that to me, I would be so tempted to slap them upside the head. It's worse than people who use the term "besties" to describe their best friend. I know it isn't food related, but it's such a similar term and so annoying.

                                                                                                  2. re: NonnieMuss
                                                                                                    Tripeler RE: NonnieMuss Nov 6, 2012 06:26 AM

                                                                                                    Gee, Nonnie, that word never makes my skin crawl...

                                                                                                  3. re: ipsedixit
                                                                                                    sr44 RE: ipsedixit Nov 5, 2012 05:56 PM

                                                                                                    Veggies. I don't know why but I find the word very irritating.

                                                                                                    1. re: sr44
                                                                                                      CanadaGirl RE: sr44 Nov 5, 2012 05:59 PM

                                                                                                      Really?! So what do you say instead? Do you say "vegetables", or are you always specific?

                                                                                                      1. re: CanadaGirl
                                                                                                        sr44 RE: CanadaGirl Nov 5, 2012 06:58 PM

                                                                                                        Yes to both.

                                                                                                    2. re: ipsedixit
                                                                                                      chefj RE: ipsedixit Nov 5, 2012 06:23 PM

                                                                                                      I think I threw up in my mouth a little! That word and Sliders. Horrible!

                                                                                                      1. re: ipsedixit
                                                                                                        paulj RE: ipsedixit Nov 5, 2012 07:31 PM

                                                                                                        I don't see any parallel between the error in talking about 'black bean hummus' and the use of 'sammies'. The complaint about misapplying 'hummus' is half way original. The complaint about using 'sammies' is old and shop worn.

                                                                                                        1. re: paulj
                                                                                                          chefj RE: paulj Nov 6, 2012 09:56 AM

                                                                                                          Guess you cant control where these conversations lead. Take a deep breath and let it go

                                                                                                        2. re: ipsedixit
                                                                                                          greygarious RE: ipsedixit Nov 5, 2012 09:36 PM

                                                                                                          In MA, I sometimes hear "sang-gwitch". Don't know which witch is "wurst".

                                                                                                          1. re: greygarious
                                                                                                            sunshine842 RE: greygarious Nov 6, 2012 01:43 AM

                                                                                                            you hear sangwitch in the Latin communities in Florida, too -- I consider that an ethnic variation, not an abomination.

                                                                                                            1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                              mamachef RE: sunshine842 Nov 6, 2012 05:10 AM

                                                                                                              Same w/ "Okemeal."

                                                                                                              1. re: mamachef
                                                                                                                Perilagu Khan RE: mamachef Nov 6, 2012 08:57 AM

                                                                                                                Same with Bombay.

                                                                                                              2. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                greygarious RE: sunshine842 Nov 7, 2012 10:30 AM

                                                                                                                Interesting - I heard it first from an equal-opportunity bigoted coworker, a white man of Irish descent.

                                                                                                            2. re: ipsedixit
                                                                                                              sisterfunkhaus RE: ipsedixit Nov 6, 2012 02:24 PM

                                                                                                              Ugh. Sammy, sammich, samwhich and all other similar terms are like nails on a chalk board to me.

                                                                                                            3. w
                                                                                                              westaust RE: cresyd Nov 5, 2012 08:09 AM

                                                                                                              I don't mind it if an appropriate description is made next to the name if it's not the original meaning!

                                                                                                              Black Bean Hummus ok, serve me black bean hummus is only hummus is listed on the menu, there I might have a problem! Same with pesto, i love sundried tomato pesto, but don't sell me on a classic basil pesto to then serve the sundried tomato one!

                                                                                                              1. s
                                                                                                                sr44 RE: cresyd Nov 5, 2012 08:34 AM


                                                                                                                4 Replies
                                                                                                                1. re: sr44
                                                                                                                  thimes RE: sr44 Nov 5, 2012 08:58 AM


                                                                                                                  just try ordering a "panino" and see the looks you get ;)

                                                                                                                  1. re: thimes
                                                                                                                    Perilagu Khan RE: thimes Nov 5, 2012 09:22 AM

                                                                                                                    They'll get their paninis in a wad.

                                                                                                                    1. re: Perilagu Khan
                                                                                                                      arashall RE: Perilagu Khan Nov 6, 2012 08:41 AM


                                                                                                                      1. re: Perilagu Khan
                                                                                                                        sandylc RE: Perilagu Khan Nov 7, 2012 08:31 PM


                                                                                                                  2. Veggo RE: cresyd Nov 5, 2012 09:13 AM

                                                                                                                    And of course subs, grinders, hoagies, and wedges.

                                                                                                                    2 Replies
                                                                                                                    1. re: Veggo
                                                                                                                      Perilagu Khan RE: Veggo Nov 5, 2012 09:22 AM

                                                                                                                      Not to mention heroes and torpedos.

                                                                                                                      1. re: Veggo
                                                                                                                        Gio RE: Veggo Nov 5, 2012 11:15 AM

                                                                                                                        Around here it used to be Submarine Sandwiches...

                                                                                                                      2. JenJeninCT RE: cresyd Nov 5, 2012 06:44 PM

                                                                                                                        I more often than not get the hairy eyeball when I order a Yee-roe (vs JYE-roe)

                                                                                                                        19 Replies
                                                                                                                        1. re: JenJeninCT
                                                                                                                          chefj RE: JenJeninCT Nov 5, 2012 06:54 PM

                                                                                                                          But you are correct, I get the same ) - :

                                                                                                                          1. re: chefj
                                                                                                                            jmcarthur8 RE: chefj Nov 5, 2012 07:04 PM

                                                                                                                            There's a restaurant in town named Spiro Gyro. The locals pronounce it 'spy-ro jie-ro', but I like the way my New Yorker hubby says 'spee-rro yheerro'

                                                                                                                            1. re: jmcarthur8
                                                                                                                              kubasd RE: jmcarthur8 Nov 5, 2012 08:12 PM

                                                                                                                              I'd pronounce it the same way as your husband.... and most likely cringe at the local pronunciation. Then again, my college was in the next town over from one called Buena Vista that was pronounced Byoo-na Vista.... shudder.

                                                                                                                              1. re: kubasd
                                                                                                                                pippimac RE: kubasd Nov 6, 2012 01:25 AM

                                                                                                                                Aah, pronunciation pedantry.Now we're talkin my language!
                                                                                                                                According to every server I can remember, 'brooshetta' is a popular bread-based snack in the Antipodes...

                                                                                                                                1. re: kubasd
                                                                                                                                  Hobbert RE: kubasd Nov 6, 2012 08:26 AM

                                                                                                                                  Must have been near Buchanan pronounced Buck-han-nin...

                                                                                                                            2. re: JenJeninCT
                                                                                                                              sunshine842 RE: JenJeninCT Nov 6, 2012 01:46 AM

                                                                                                                              I used to wait tables in a restaurant owned by a Greek guy. One day soon after I started, he heard me call it a gyro (like in gyroscope or gyrocopter) he walked over to me, gently squeezed my cheeks (the ones on my face ;) )and said "yee-ro, yee-ro, yee-ro", much to the amusement of the rest of the staff.

                                                                                                                              I've never said it any other say since.

                                                                                                                              1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                redfish62 RE: sunshine842 Nov 6, 2012 02:51 AM

                                                                                                                                I still call it a gy-ro out of sheer stubbornness. If they want me to call it a yee-ro they have to change the spelling.

                                                                                                                                1. re: redfish62
                                                                                                                                  sunshine842 RE: redfish62 Nov 6, 2012 02:58 AM

                                                                                                                                  actually, if you listen very carefully to the pronunciation from a native speaker, the G is there -- but a soft g, like in guppy or golf.

                                                                                                                                  I made him laugh by trying to combine the soft g with the rolled r like he pronounced it, so he declared my "yeero" close enough.

                                                                                                                              2. re: JenJeninCT
                                                                                                                                sisterfunkhaus RE: JenJeninCT Nov 6, 2012 02:30 PM

                                                                                                                                I order it that way as well. I often say How-da instead of goo-da for Gouda and have had people correct me.

                                                                                                                                1. re: sisterfunkhaus
                                                                                                                                  mamachef RE: sisterfunkhaus Nov 6, 2012 02:40 PM

                                                                                                                                  I say it that way too, and right or wrong (since there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer) I think it's pretty well ingrained by now.

                                                                                                                                  1. re: mamachef
                                                                                                                                    Harters RE: mamachef Nov 7, 2012 12:53 AM

                                                                                                                                    Me too - ever since I visited Gouda 35+ years back. Easy way round pronunciation issues- just buy the tastier Dutch cheeses, like Leerdammer, instead of Gouda or Edam. .

                                                                                                                                    1. re: Harters
                                                                                                                                      Tripeler RE: Harters Nov 8, 2012 06:03 AM

                                                                                                                                      My Dutch friend tells me that very little cheese is being made in the town of Gouda these days as it has become pretty much a residential suburb, and that the actual cheese is being made farther away from the developed areas in smaller towns with different names. Still being called Gouda cheese, though.

                                                                                                                                      1. re: Tripeler
                                                                                                                                        Harters RE: Tripeler Nov 8, 2012 06:59 AM

                                                                                                                                        Wiki turns up an interesting Gouda fact. In that Gouda is in the province of South Holland - but it is a North Holland Gouda that has European Union PGS status.

                                                                                                                                        1. re: Harters
                                                                                                                                          Tripeler RE: Harters Nov 9, 2012 05:22 AM

                                                                                                                                          Funny thing, I have never had any Gouda I though very much of. For that style of cheese, I prefer the hard Swiss cheeses like Emmenthal and the like. Actually, I really like low-fat Emmenthal and Jarlsberg.

                                                                                                                                          1. re: Tripeler
                                                                                                                                            Harters RE: Tripeler Nov 9, 2012 05:54 AM

                                                                                                                                            Me too. I find most Dutch cheeses bland and boring, even they well matured ones. Fine for breakfast but, even then, I prefer a more Emmenthal style, like Leerdammer, to the common ones like Edam and Gouda.

                                                                                                                                            1. re: Harters
                                                                                                                                              JungMann RE: Harters Nov 9, 2012 06:29 AM

                                                                                                                                              What is this Edam you speak of? We call that cheese queso de bola. It's considered a necessity for a well-appointed Christmas table and at that time of year can command a price suitable for hostess gift-giving.

                                                                                                                                              1. re: JungMann
                                                                                                                                                Harters RE: JungMann Nov 9, 2012 08:51 AM

                                                                                                                                                Edam is the other main cheese produced in the Netherlands. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edam_(ch.... In its usual state, it is pretty much identical to Gouda

                                                                                                                                              2. re: Harters
                                                                                                                                                cheesemaestro RE: Harters Nov 9, 2012 07:42 AM

                                                                                                                                                Have you never tried an aged Gouda? I'm talking about one that has been aged at least two years (and up to five years). Full of luscious toffee and butterscotch flavors and the antithesis of bland and boring. I have to agree with you about Edam, though.

                                                                                                                                                1. re: cheesemaestro
                                                                                                                                                  Harters RE: cheesemaestro Nov 9, 2012 08:54 AM

                                                                                                                                                  Yes, I've tried aged Gouda - usually in the form of Old Amsterdam but, also, in the occasional farm cheese.

                                                                                                                                2. w
                                                                                                                                  Wawsanham RE: cresyd Nov 6, 2012 06:45 AM

                                                                                                                                  There's a fine line between being accurate to the meaning of something, and acknowleging that that name used in a new linguistic context (ie. another language) is not the same name as in the original language. Perhaps, in American English, "hummus" just is starting to mean "spread." Maybe the solution would be to promote the use of the word "spread" instead of "hummus" altogether.
                                                                                                                                  The same holds for other words like "panini, fajita, sushi" etc... Those words are not being used in their languages of origin; therefore, there is no need to adhere to the rules of those languages.

                                                                                                                                  29 Replies
                                                                                                                                  1. re: Wawsanham
                                                                                                                                    DeppityDawg RE: Wawsanham Nov 6, 2012 07:14 AM

                                                                                                                                    The voice of reason and rationality! Too bad it'll never catch on.

                                                                                                                                    1. re: DeppityDawg
                                                                                                                                      Wawsanham RE: DeppityDawg Nov 6, 2012 07:24 AM


                                                                                                                                      1. re: DeppityDawg
                                                                                                                                        thimes RE: DeppityDawg Nov 6, 2012 07:25 AM

                                                                                                                                        Good point - just made me want to through "chips" into the mix - a la "Fish and Chips".

                                                                                                                                        Chips are "french fries", when did we decide to change it to mean thin crispy potato chips. There is an English to English difference.

                                                                                                                                        1. re: thimes
                                                                                                                                          sunshine842 RE: thimes Nov 6, 2012 08:02 AM


                                                                                                                                          1. re: thimes
                                                                                                                                            Harters RE: thimes Nov 6, 2012 08:30 AM

                                                                                                                                            Chips are chips. French fries are what Americans call those thin chip like things they eat. Different thing altogether.

                                                                                                                                            1. re: Harters
                                                                                                                                              redfish62 RE: Harters Nov 6, 2012 08:35 AM

                                                                                                                                              Crisps are what the British call chips, and chips are fries, and biscuits are cookies, and birds are chicks.

                                                                                                                                              1. re: Harters
                                                                                                                                                sunshine842 RE: Harters Nov 6, 2012 08:38 AM

                                                                                                                                                and Harters and his cohorts call thin crispy potato chips "crisps", not chips, unless I am horribly, horribly mistaken.

                                                                                                                                                Crossed the stream with redfish.

                                                                                                                                                and scones are biscuits.

                                                                                                                                                1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                                  Harters RE: sunshine842 Nov 6, 2012 09:16 AM

                                                                                                                                                  Somewhere, back in the mists of time (about a year ago), there was a very long thread comparing British English and American English. I was surprised just how different it was just keeping on food - I'm gobsmacked we are able to understand each other. And that was without getting into the further differencs in Australian and New Zealand English.

                                                                                                                                                  By the by, birds are creatures which fly. They havnt been girls/women since the 1960s (except in Austin Powers films, which is pretty much the same thing)

                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Harters
                                                                                                                                                    sunshine842 RE: Harters Nov 6, 2012 09:22 AM

                                                                                                                                                    I had a friend from Rotherham in the early 90s who called women birds -- we let him slide because he was a gentleman in every other aspect

                                                                                                                                                    1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                                      Harters RE: sunshine842 Nov 6, 2012 09:58 AM

                                                                                                                                                      Ahh. Rotherham, eh?

                                                                                                                                                      Explains all :-0

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: Harters
                                                                                                                                                        sunshine842 RE: Harters Nov 6, 2012 10:10 AM

                                                                                                                                                        that's why I put it in there -- just for you!

                                                                                                                                                        He's actually a really great guy - one of the ones I'm sorry to have lost track of over the years. (and he has an aggravatingly common name, so Googling turns up several million people more than I'm going to page through one at a time)

                                                                                                                                                    2. re: Harters
                                                                                                                                                      cheesemaestro RE: Harters Nov 6, 2012 10:12 AM

                                                                                                                                                      "I'm gobsmacked we are able to understand each other."

                                                                                                                                                      Illustrating your point, we Americans are not "gobsmacked." We may be dumbfounded or flabbergasted, but we're not gobsmacked!

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: cheesemaestro
                                                                                                                                                        redfish62 RE: cheesemaestro Nov 6, 2012 10:15 AM

                                                                                                                                                        To me gobsmacked sounds like what happens when you are walking on the beach and a flock of seagulls happens to pass overhead.

                                                                                                                                                        1. re: redfish62
                                                                                                                                                          Harters RE: redfish62 Nov 6, 2012 10:25 AM

                                                                                                                                                          Whereas it actually suggests that you have been made speechless by being smacked in the mouth.

                                                                                                                                                          1. re: Harters
                                                                                                                                                            sunshine842 RE: Harters Nov 6, 2012 10:51 AM

                                                                                                                                                            which I *hope* never happens with a seagull...

                                                                                                                                                            1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                                              Harters RE: sunshine842 Nov 6, 2012 10:56 AM

                                                                                                                                                              There's a tiny island off the north east coast of England which is a bird sanctuary. You can visit at certain times of the year. We did - and a particular species was nesting all over the island. They were only quite tiny birds but fiercely defended the area round the nest - attacking humans by diving to our heads and pecking us (and crapping on us as well, although that bit probably was not deliberate)

                                                                                                                                                              1. re: Harters
                                                                                                                                                                sunshine842 RE: Harters Nov 6, 2012 11:27 AM

                                                                                                                                                                lolz -- quite tiny, very defensive -- are they a typical woodland species?

                                                                                                                                                          2. re: redfish62
                                                                                                                                                            Perilagu Khan RE: redfish62 Nov 6, 2012 11:57 AM

                                                                                                                                                            Wasn't there some confection (or was it confit?) called Everlasting Gobsmackers?

                                                                                                                                                            1. re: Perilagu Khan
                                                                                                                                                              iluvcookies RE: Perilagu Khan Nov 6, 2012 12:01 PM

                                                                                                                                                              Everlasting Gobstoppers... it was a Wonka brand (here in the US anyway)

                                                                                                                                                              1. re: Perilagu Khan
                                                                                                                                                                fldhkybnva RE: Perilagu Khan Nov 6, 2012 12:02 PM

                                                                                                                                                                Yes, indeed they were fantabulous! Do they no longer exist?

                                                                                                                                                                1. re: fldhkybnva
                                                                                                                                                                  iluvcookies RE: fldhkybnva Nov 6, 2012 12:23 PM

                                                                                                                                                                  I just googled and it seems they do still exist. I haven't seen them much lately though.

                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: iluvcookies
                                                                                                                                                                    fldhkybnva RE: iluvcookies Nov 6, 2012 12:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                    I remember many a choking incident when I would inhale them a bit too quickly in the car.

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: fldhkybnva
                                                                                                                                                                      Perilagu Khan RE: fldhkybnva Nov 6, 2012 01:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                      I guess your gob got stopped. Really not a joking matter, though.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: Perilagu Khan
                                                                                                                                                                        fldhkybnva RE: Perilagu Khan Nov 6, 2012 01:34 PM

                                                                                                                                                                        Yea, many a scary moment but they always came back up. I also had a general jawbreaker love. My grandmother had a booth at the Reading Terminal Market in Philadelphia and there was this fabulous candy shop with humongous jawbreakers. I would stock up and suck on them all day, but had to be very careful when they got just the right size to fit down my trachea. Very fortunate, that there were no unfortunate accidents.

                                                                                                                                                            2. re: cheesemaestro
                                                                                                                                                              sunshine842 RE: cheesemaestro Nov 6, 2012 10:15 AM

                                                                                                                                                              some of us are...but then, I'm the weird one out on that one. Because I used to work extensively with UK companies, I taught myself UK spelling and grammar, and watched a lot of British television so I'd be up on the pop culture and not talk or feel like such an alien during my frequent visits. As such, my spelling is now horrendous, and my vocabulary is a bizarre mashup of the two.

                                                                                                                                                              now that I've added French to the mix, it's even worse!

                                                                                                                                                            3. re: Harters
                                                                                                                                                              CanadaGirl RE: Harters Nov 7, 2012 12:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                              Us Canadians have some differences too...

                                                                                                                                                      2. re: DeppityDawg
                                                                                                                                                        linguafood RE: DeppityDawg Nov 6, 2012 09:07 AM

                                                                                                                                                        AND finally ON TOPIC AGAIN.

                                                                                                                                                      3. re: Wawsanham
                                                                                                                                                        cresyd RE: Wawsanham Nov 6, 2012 08:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                        In general, I completely agree with what you're saying. My post isn't about a call to arms to bring people to task for misusing humus or martini. But rather, I think the greater trend is that all of us have food and terms that we are more connected to and thus less flexible on the globalization of the concept.

                                                                                                                                                        For one person a duck gyro might be a celebration of culinary innovation and for another it's a perversion of a tradition. That's what I was most interested in.

                                                                                                                                                        1. re: cresyd
                                                                                                                                                          thimes RE: cresyd Nov 6, 2012 09:26 AM

                                                                                                                                                          I'm sure many of us got your original intent. These posts just take on a life of their own. If you just read the primary posts you still get the intent without all the huffing and puffing. ;)

                                                                                                                                                      4. paulj RE: cresyd Nov 6, 2012 07:50 AM

                                                                                                                                                        The Wiki article claims (with citations) that the full name is

                                                                                                                                                        ḥummuṣ bi ṭaḥīna, which means "chickpeas with tahini".

                                                                                                                                                        Why do you oppose changing the 'chickpea' part but ok with dropping the tahini part?

                                                                                                                                                        11 Replies
                                                                                                                                                        1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                          melpy RE: paulj Nov 6, 2012 08:23 AM

                                                                                                                                                          Today I bought a can of Israeli tahina and after getting read the ingredients listing chickpeas. Now I am worried I have hummus bi tahina instead of what I wanted. Nomenclature is confusing and labeling is even more confusing.

                                                                                                                                                          I have to look very carefully to ensure my tomato sauce in a can doesn't contain peppers because I despise peppers in my red sauce.

                                                                                                                                                          1. re: melpy
                                                                                                                                                            iluvcookies RE: melpy Nov 6, 2012 08:35 AM

                                                                                                                                                            I've noticed more and more that canned tomatoes contain seasonings... basil, "italian seasoning", garlic and oil. All I want are plain tomatoes in their juice please!

                                                                                                                                                            1. re: iluvcookies
                                                                                                                                                              melpy RE: iluvcookies Nov 6, 2012 08:56 AM

                                                                                                                                                              Yes! Have to look closely to see what you get.

                                                                                                                                                            2. re: melpy
                                                                                                                                                              cresyd RE: melpy Nov 6, 2012 08:54 AM

                                                                                                                                                              In Israel/Hebrew, hummus is almost never called "hummus bi tahina" (which in Hebrew would translate to 'chickpeas in tahina' and linguistically would bring to mind whole chickpeas floating in tahina).

                                                                                                                                                              What brand of tahina is it?

                                                                                                                                                            3. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                              cresyd RE: paulj Nov 6, 2012 08:51 AM

                                                                                                                                                              In the Middle East, it is extremely rare to see the full name listed. While "hummus with hummus" would be ordered, hummus with tahini with hummus (or fava beans, or meat, or pine nuts) would not be the ordered.

                                                                                                                                                              Ultimately my point was that (to me and my fussiness) the product known in the Western world as humus requires the inclusion of chickpeas.

                                                                                                                                                              1. re: cresyd
                                                                                                                                                                DeppityDawg RE: cresyd Nov 6, 2012 09:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                                On the other hand, if an English-language menu offered "hummus" or said that such-and-such was "served with hummus" and it turned out to be whole, cooked chickpeas, you'd have a lot of disappointed and annoyed customers. It's nice to know what the word "hummus" means in Arabic, but that information will not help you use it successfully in English.

                                                                                                                                                                1. re: DeppityDawg
                                                                                                                                                                  cresyd RE: DeppityDawg Nov 6, 2012 09:47 AM

                                                                                                                                                                  In an Arabic or Hebrew speaking community, if a menu said "hummus" (in either language) and you just got whole chickpeas, native Arabic and Hebrew speakers would be equally disappointed.

                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: cresyd
                                                                                                                                                                    DeppityDawg RE: cresyd Nov 6, 2012 12:52 PM

                                                                                                                                                                    That would mean that in those languages the word "hummus" also refers in most situations specifically to a dip/spread/puree. So you can't really blame English speakers for taking that idea and running with it and extending it to similar recipes…

                                                                                                                                                                    After all, we already have a word for "chickpea": it's "garbanzo". :D

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: DeppityDawg
                                                                                                                                                                      cresyd RE: DeppityDawg Nov 6, 2012 01:52 PM

                                                                                                                                                                      To explain in full (though I get the impression you're just playing devil's advocate) - if a dish was listed with a set of ingredients that included "humus" - then it would be referring to the chickpeas. However, if there was a restaurant item listed as "humus" on its own, then it would refer to the spread. It's about context.

                                                                                                                                                                      Regardless, I'm sure for another person it's not humus if there's no tahini (and I know others that feel that humus served without olive oil on top remains "unfinished"). To each their own. This is just mine.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: cresyd
                                                                                                                                                                        DeppityDawg RE: cresyd Nov 7, 2012 08:57 AM

                                                                                                                                                                        If I wanted to play devil's advocate, I might say that vinegar, based on the French origin of the word, can only be made from wine. In my world there will never be "cider vinegar" or "malt vinegar". Also, in my world mincemeat pies must contain minced meat, because that's how it was historically and because it's right there in the *bleeping* name of the thing, duh. If you're not going to respect the origins and the true meanings of words, at least have the decency to translate them into Arabic or something.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: DeppityDawg
                                                                                                                                                                          Harters RE: DeppityDawg Nov 7, 2012 09:44 AM

                                                                                                                                                                          As you say, DD, mince pies used to contain minced meat. However, in the UK, that practice seems to have died out in the early 19th century. Modern pies though are still generally unsuitable for vegetarians as they retain "meat" in the form of suet.

                                                                                                                                                            4. paulj RE: cresyd Nov 6, 2012 08:02 AM

                                                                                                                                                              Turkey - what does that American bird have to do with the country?

                                                                                                                                                              is it filled with 'stuffing' or 'dressing'?

                                                                                                                                                              sweet potato - it isn't a potato, and not always that sweet. Nor is a true yam

                                                                                                                                                              how is a pumpkin different from a squash?

                                                                                                                                                              why isn't it green bean pod casserole?

                                                                                                                                                              17 Replies
                                                                                                                                                              1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                Veggo RE: paulj Nov 6, 2012 08:17 AM

                                                                                                                                                                The turkey bird was around long before the breakup of the Ottoman Empire. Good question, though. Fun factoid: Ben Franklin favored turkey when a national bird was being deliberated, until their promiscuous behavior was brought to his attention. (And not by Thomas Jefferson!)

                                                                                                                                                                1. re: Veggo
                                                                                                                                                                  paulj RE: Veggo Nov 6, 2012 10:19 AM

                                                                                                                                                                  I read on a wild turkey website, that our domesticated bird comes from European stock, which in turn came from Mexico (Meleagris gallopavo). While 'pavo' is the common Spanish name, in Mexico a Náhuatl derivative, guajolote is common. Think of the 'everyone mispronounces this' posts we'd get if 'guajolote' had been adopted into English.

                                                                                                                                                                  list of names for (wild) turkey. These are all good examples of how names for 'exotic' foods can can have screwy derivations.

                                                                                                                                                                  Apparently it was the Asian guineafowl that was originally known in English as the turkey fowl. So the current 'turkey' results from both a misunderstanding as to its origin, but also its species.

                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                    Veggo RE: paulj Nov 6, 2012 10:26 AM

                                                                                                                                                                    You're right - a lot of gringos would end up with guacamole with extra mole!

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: Veggo
                                                                                                                                                                      Gio RE: Veggo Nov 6, 2012 10:33 AM

                                                                                                                                                                      I once asked for Guanciale in a supposedly Italian salumeria and was told what I really wanted was Guacamole...

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: Gio
                                                                                                                                                                        mamachef RE: Gio Nov 6, 2012 12:14 PM

                                                                                                                                                                        wow, now they have autocorrect in salumerias!! this will never end!

                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                      paulj RE: paulj Nov 7, 2012 04:39 PM

                                                                                                                                                                      "Europe, used to eating fowl and accustomed to chicken as a special occasion centerpiece, was ready for a big, new, festive, good-tasting bird. Soon, turkey replaced heron, swan, peacock, and other birds that were nearly inedible but made magnificent presentations."
                                                                                                                                                                      p 137 Cuisine & Culture, Linda Civitello

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                        sunshine842 RE: paulj Nov 8, 2012 12:05 AM

                                                                                                                                                                        which is curious, given the difficulty of finding a large whole turkey in Europe, and that modern guinea fowl (pintade) are usually a fair bit smaller than chickens.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                                                          Harters RE: sunshine842 Nov 8, 2012 03:36 AM

                                                                                                                                                                          It may be referring to the UK part of Europe,where it is commonplace for turkeys of all sizes to be available at Xmas.

                                                                                                                                                                          As for it replacing more exotic birds, that doesnt stand up to examination. Although it had been available in Britain as far back as the 16th century, it didnt really become popular here until the middle of the 19th, by which time, the eating the likes of swan and peacock had ceased some couple of hundred years before.

                                                                                                                                                                          I suspect that the author has confused herself about what the general population might eat, as opposed to the diet of the wealthy and aristocratic

                                                                                                                                                                    3. re: Veggo
                                                                                                                                                                      paulj RE: Veggo Nov 6, 2012 10:57 AM

                                                                                                                                                                      "country name, late 14c., from M.L. Turchia, from Turcus (see Turk) + -ia."
                                                                                                                                                                      'turkey' as a name for a country, or at least a region (Asia minor where 'Turks' had migrated to) dates back to the 14c., even if the modern state post dates the Ottoman Empire.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                        Veggo RE: paulj Nov 6, 2012 12:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                                        Paul, you should take over for Alex Trebek when he retires from Jeopardy next year.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: Veggo
                                                                                                                                                                          Perilagu Khan RE: Veggo Nov 6, 2012 01:32 PM

                                                                                                                                                                          I'll take Southwest Asian National Etymology for $500, paulj.

                                                                                                                                                                    4. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                      sisterfunkhaus RE: paulj Nov 6, 2012 02:34 PM

                                                                                                                                                                      People calling sweet potatoes yams really irritates me.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: sisterfunkhaus
                                                                                                                                                                        mamachef RE: sisterfunkhaus Nov 6, 2012 02:41 PM

                                                                                                                                                                        Boyoboy can I get behind that one!

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: sisterfunkhaus
                                                                                                                                                                          paulj RE: sisterfunkhaus Nov 6, 2012 09:33 PM

                                                                                                                                                                          Do you regularly eat true yams? I never have.

                                                                                                                                                                          If using 'yam' bothered me I'd never buy some of the best sweet potatoes. When I go to an Asian grocery I can buy Japanese yams, white yams, red yams, and purple yams (Okinawan), all 'batatas'.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                            paulj RE: paulj Nov 7, 2012 08:39 AM

                                                                                                                                                                            With a little more digging I realized that these names are lot more confusing.

                                                                                                                                                                            Sweet potatoes are sometimes called yams because Africans, either in Africa or the Americas (sources vary), noted a resemblance to the yam they were used to cultivating. And sweet potato has partially displaced the yam as a staple crop in Africa.

                                                                                                                                                                            Our word 'potato' comes from the Spanish 'patata'. "The Spanish Royal Academy says the Spanish word is a compound of the Taino batata (sweet potato) and the Quechua papa (potato)" (Wiki). At times 'common potato' referred to the sweet potato, and 'white potato' meant the potato.

                                                                                                                                                                            To confuse things further, the French talk about 'earth apples', while the Italians use 'golden apples' for a different New World plant.

                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                              cheesemaestro RE: paulj Nov 7, 2012 09:05 AM

                                                                                                                                                                              The Austrians also call the potato "earth apple" (Erdapfel), unlike the Germans, who say "Kartoffel." In a restaurant in Vienna, I once made the mistake of using the word Kartoffel. I was immediately told in a stern voice by my server that that word is not used in Austria.

                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: cheesemaestro
                                                                                                                                                                                linguafood RE: cheesemaestro Nov 7, 2012 09:33 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                They're called erdäpfel in parts of Germany, too. The Rhineland, for example.

                                                                                                                                                                      2. paulj RE: cresyd Nov 7, 2012 08:46 AM

                                                                                                                                                                        How about 'corn'?

                                                                                                                                                                        Originally it meant any grain or grain sized object, a use that is preserved in 'peppercorn' and 'corned beef', and 94 uses in the KJV (including 'corn of wheat'). Now we Americans use it almost exclusively for maize (earlier we would have qualified it as 'Indian corn'). And in Italy the old term for any porridge (polenta) evolved to mean corn mush, and the corn used to make it.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. pinehurst RE: cresyd Nov 7, 2012 05:22 PM

                                                                                                                                                                          How about caviar? After El Bulli, chefs are making apple "caviar", maple "caviar", etc.

                                                                                                                                                                          No, they're making mini blobs, but ...well, you know...

                                                                                                                                                                          24 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: pinehurst
                                                                                                                                                                            mamachef RE: pinehurst Nov 7, 2012 06:45 PM

                                                                                                                                                                            Good one. Just because something is small and spherical, caviar it does not make. Otherwise, I guess we could call English Peas "vegetable-matter caviar."

                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: mamachef
                                                                                                                                                                              paulj RE: mamachef Nov 7, 2012 07:12 PM

                                                                                                                                                                              oh ye of little imagination ...

                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                                mamachef RE: paulj Nov 8, 2012 04:15 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                Snicker. Yep, that's me.
                                                                                                                                                                                I think even coming up w/ my answer was quite, quite creative.
                                                                                                                                                                                At least in my mind.

                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: mamachef
                                                                                                                                                                                  sandylc RE: mamachef Nov 8, 2012 09:57 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                  I wonder if anyone has pureed peas and then formed them into spheres yet.

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: sandylc
                                                                                                                                                                                    mamachef RE: sandylc Nov 8, 2012 10:13 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                    Somebody somewhere is probably doing it as we speak. And charging a mint for them.

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: sandylc
                                                                                                                                                                                      paulj RE: sandylc Nov 8, 2012 11:39 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      Search and ye shall find:
                                                                                                                                                                                      Serious Eats recipe for Spherification green eggs and ham

                                                                                                                                                                                      "Good candidates for first-time spherifiers are pea juice, apricot puree, or liquefied blueberries. "

                                                                                                                                                                                      As for 'a mint' - that's in the juice.

                                                                                                                                                                                2. re: mamachef
                                                                                                                                                                                  pinehurst RE: mamachef Nov 8, 2012 10:05 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                  It's better if you say "vegetable-matter" in French, mama! ;-)

                                                                                                                                                                                3. re: pinehurst
                                                                                                                                                                                  DeppityDawg RE: pinehurst Nov 7, 2012 07:40 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                  Long before El Bulli, there was "eggplant caviar" and "Texas caviar", etc. The idea is that these foods look like caviar, not that they _are_ caviar. See also Rocky Mountain oysters, tapioca pearls, ... Sometimes the metaphorical use can lead to a real extension of the original word's definition (for example "truffle" as a chocolate preparation, not necessarily shaped into balls). But saying that apple caviar is not caviar strikes me as the same thing as complaining that farfalle is not actually butterflies or that gummi bears are not actually bears.

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: DeppityDawg
                                                                                                                                                                                    paulj RE: DeppityDawg Nov 7, 2012 08:05 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    Do you think I could make fish-egg pudding with tapioca PEARLS and COCO-NUT MILK?

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                                      mamachef RE: paulj Nov 8, 2012 04:17 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      No, you could make "tapioca caviar." :)

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                                        DeppityDawg RE: paulj Nov 8, 2012 06:39 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                        In my world, if you make it, you have to marry it. Mazal tov!

                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: DeppityDawg
                                                                                                                                                                                        sunshine842 RE: DeppityDawg Nov 8, 2012 12:07 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                        I also believe that "eggplant caviar" and "Texas caviar" are plays on the word -- that they're implied to be just as good as....

                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: DeppityDawg
                                                                                                                                                                                          ricepad RE: DeppityDawg Nov 8, 2012 11:39 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                          What? Gummi bears are not bears? WTF??? What kinda meat are they made of?

                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: ricepad
                                                                                                                                                                                            sunshine842 RE: ricepad Nov 8, 2012 12:12 PM


                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: ricepad
                                                                                                                                                                                              CanadaGirl RE: ricepad Nov 9, 2012 03:00 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                              Usually a little bit of pork.....

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: CanadaGirl
                                                                                                                                                                                                sunshine842 RE: CanadaGirl Nov 9, 2012 03:22 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                or cow.

                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                                                                                  CanadaGirl RE: sunshine842 Nov 9, 2012 04:21 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I always thought that most non-kosher gelatin was pork. Am I misinformed?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: CanadaGirl
                                                                                                                                                                                                    sunshine842 RE: CanadaGirl Nov 9, 2012 04:37 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                    It's very often made with a substance found in various cow parts, as well as horses and chickens: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelatin

                                                                                                                                                                                                    The biggest issue arises when you don't know what animal contributed to the gelatin, or gets served in the same meal as milk.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    It is possible to make gelatin from fish, which is sometimes labeled as kosher.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                                                                                      cresyd RE: sunshine842 Nov 9, 2012 05:39 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                      There's also vegetable gelatin.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Gelatin is actually one of the few products that just because it's considered kosher does not automatically mean it's considered halal. The reasons behind that have never been made entirely clear to me, but there you are.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: cresyd
                                                                                                                                                                                                        CanadaGirl RE: cresyd Nov 9, 2012 05:48 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Wow!! Who knew gelatin was so complicated? Thanks Sunshine and cresyd :)

                                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: ricepad
                                                                                                                                                                                                pinehurst RE: ricepad Nov 9, 2012 03:40 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                Reminds me of the line from the Raul Julia Addams Family movie...the child, Wednesday (Christina Ricci?) asks "Are your Girl Scout cookies made of REAL girl scouts?" I believe it was in reply to a snarky question posed by a scout about if the AF's lemonade was made with real lemons.

                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: pinehurst
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sunshine842 RE: pinehurst Nov 9, 2012 04:02 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  if vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: sunshine842
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Gio RE: sunshine842 Nov 9, 2012 06:07 AM


                                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: pinehurst
                                                                                                                                                                                              thimes RE: pinehurst Nov 8, 2012 05:08 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                              +1 to caviar for sure!

                                                                                                                                                                                            3. Kholvaitar RE: cresyd Aug 10, 2013 12:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                              How mysterious a fritter can be!!

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. v
                                                                                                                                                                                                Violatp RE: cresyd Aug 10, 2013 10:38 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                There's a (stupid) trend towards calling any sort of baked good that is cut into bars a "brownie." So, so wrong. If there's no chocolate, it's not a brownie!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                That being said, it doesn't kill me to call fancy, fruity cocktails "martinis." I know they're not, and I totally get the angst (once started a thread about it!) but I still call them that. Just because.

                                                                                                                                                                                                1. v
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Violatp RE: cresyd Aug 10, 2013 10:44 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sigh. Old thread...

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