Flexibility of food names

[cresyd]

I've seen a number of posts related to sushi and thoughts of what should and should not be called sushi. I don't have nearly the emotional response to that - however when I hear terms such as "black bean humus", I bristle.

Humus (in Arabic) means chickpea, and in most humus places it is possible (and common) to order humus (the spread) with humus (the whole chickpea). Therefore the idea of humus made without chickpeas is no longer humus to me. I get the idea that the word brings to mind a "creamy spread" - but personally the expansion of the word doesn't work for me. In my world there will never be a white bean walnut humus. (Not that it can't be a tasty/yummy spread - but I won't call it humus)

What are the food terms where you hold onto the traditional definition of the word? Which ones are you less possesive of?

[pinehurst]

How about caviar? After El Bulli, chefs are making apple "caviar", maple "caviar", etc.

No, they're making mini blobs, but ...well, you know...

[mamachef]

Good one. Just because something is small and spherical, caviar it does not make. Otherwise, I guess we could call English Peas "vegetable-matter caviar."

[paulj]

oh ye of little imagination ...

[mamachef]

Snicker. Yep, that's me.
I think even coming up w/ my answer was quite, quite creative.
At least in my mind.
:)

[sandylc]

I wonder if anyone has pureed peas and then formed them into spheres yet.

[mamachef]

Somebody somewhere is probably doing it as we speak. And charging a mint for them.

[paulj]

Search and ye shall find:
http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/11/spherification-green-eggs-and-ham-dr-seuss-modernist-cuisine.html
Serious Eats recipe for Spherification green eggs and ham

http://www.seriouseats.com/2011/11/gr...
"Good candidates for first-time spherifiers are pea juice, apricot puree, or liquefied blueberries. "

As for 'a mint' - that's in the juice.

[pinehurst]

It's better if you say "vegetable-matter" in French, mama! ;-)

[DeppityDawg]

Long before El Bulli, there was "eggplant caviar" and "Texas caviar", etc. The idea is that these foods look like caviar, not that they _are_ caviar. See also Rocky Mountain oysters, tapioca pearls, ... Sometimes the metaphorical use can lead to a real extension of the original word's definition (for example "truffle" as a chocolate preparation, not necessarily shaped into balls). But saying that apple caviar is not caviar strikes me as the same thing as complaining that farfalle is not actually butterflies or that gummi bears are not actually bears.

[paulj]

Do you think I could make fish-egg pudding with tapioca PEARLS and COCO-NUT MILK?

[mamachef]

No, you could make "tapioca caviar." :)

[DeppityDawg]

In my world, if you make it, you have to marry it. Mazal tov!

[sunshine842]

I also believe that "eggplant caviar" and "Texas caviar" are plays on the word -- that they're implied to be just as good as....

[ricepad]

What? Gummi bears are not bears? WTF??? What kinda meat are they made of?

[sunshine842]

Gummi.

[CanadaGirl]

Usually a little bit of pork.....

[sunshine842]

or cow.

[CanadaGirl]

I always thought that most non-kosher gelatin was pork. Am I misinformed?

[sunshine842]

It's very often made with a substance found in various cow parts, as well as horses and chickens: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelatin

The biggest issue arises when you don't know what animal contributed to the gelatin, or gets served in the same meal as milk.

It is possible to make gelatin from fish, which is sometimes labeled as kosher.

[cresyd]

There's also vegetable gelatin.

Gelatin is actually one of the few products that just because it's considered kosher does not automatically mean it's considered halal. The reasons behind that have never been made entirely clear to me, but there you are.

[CanadaGirl]

Wow!! Who knew gelatin was so complicated? Thanks Sunshine and cresyd :)

[pinehurst]

Reminds me of the line from the Raul Julia Addams Family movie...the child, Wednesday (Christina Ricci?) asks "Are your Girl Scout cookies made of REAL girl scouts?" I believe it was in reply to a snarky question posed by a scout about if the AF's lemonade was made with real lemons.

[sunshine842]

if vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?

[Gio]

Ignorance.

[thimes]

+1 to caviar for sure!

[paulj]

How about 'corn'?

Originally it meant any grain or grain sized object, a use that is preserved in 'peppercorn' and 'corned beef', and 94 uses in the KJV (including 'corn of wheat'). Now we Americans use it almost exclusively for maize (earlier we would have qualified it as 'Indian corn'). And in Italy the old term for any porridge (polenta) evolved to mean corn mush, and the corn used to make it.

[paulj]

Turkey - what does that American bird have to do with the country?

is it filled with 'stuffing' or 'dressing'?

sweet potato - it isn't a potato, and not always that sweet. Nor is a true yam

how is a pumpkin different from a squash?

why isn't it green bean pod casserole?

[Veggo]

The turkey bird was around long before the breakup of the Ottoman Empire. Good question, though. Fun factoid: Ben Franklin favored turkey when a national bird was being deliberated, until their promiscuous behavior was brought to his attention. (And not by Thomas Jefferson!)

[paulj]

I read on a wild turkey website, that our domesticated bird comes from European stock, which in turn came from Mexico (Meleagris gallopavo). While 'pavo' is the common Spanish name, in Mexico a Náhuatl derivative, guajolote is common. Think of the 'everyone mispronounces this' posts we'd get if 'guajolote' had been adopted into English.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_...
list of names for (wild) turkey. These are all good examples of how names for 'exotic' foods can can have screwy derivations.

Apparently it was the Asian guineafowl that was originally known in English as the turkey fowl. So the current 'turkey' results from both a misunderstanding as to its origin, but also its species.

[Veggo]

You're right - a lot of gringos would end up with guacamole with extra mole!

[Gio]

I once asked for Guanciale in a supposedly Italian salumeria and was told what I really wanted was Guacamole...

[mamachef]

wow, now they have autocorrect in salumerias!! this will never end!

[paulj]

"Europe, used to eating fowl and accustomed to chicken as a special occasion centerpiece, was ready for a big, new, festive, good-tasting bird. Soon, turkey replaced heron, swan, peacock, and other birds that were nearly inedible but made magnificent presentations."
p 137 Cuisine & Culture, Linda Civitello

[sunshine842]

which is curious, given the difficulty of finding a large whole turkey in Europe, and that modern guinea fowl (pintade) are usually a fair bit smaller than chickens.

[Harters]

It may be referring to the UK part of Europe,where it is commonplace for turkeys of all sizes to be available at Xmas.

As for it replacing more exotic birds, that doesnt stand up to examination. Although it had been available in Britain as far back as the 16th century, it didnt really become popular here until the middle of the 19th, by which time, the eating the likes of swan and peacock had ceased some couple of hundred years before.

I suspect that the author has confused herself about what the general population might eat, as opposed to the diet of the wealthy and aristocratic

[paulj]

"country name, late 14c., from M.L. Turchia, from Turcus (see Turk) + -ia."
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?a...
'turkey' as a name for a country, or at least a region (Asia minor where 'Turks' had migrated to) dates back to the 14c., even if the modern state post dates the Ottoman Empire.

[Veggo]

Paul, you should take over for Alex Trebek when he retires from Jeopardy next year.

[Perilagu Khan]

I'll take Southwest Asian National Etymology for $500, paulj.

[sisterfunkhaus]

People calling sweet potatoes yams really irritates me.

[mamachef]

Boyoboy can I get behind that one!

[paulj]

Do you regularly eat true yams? I never have.

If using 'yam' bothered me I'd never buy some of the best sweet potatoes. When I go to an Asian grocery I can buy Japanese yams, white yams, red yams, and purple yams (Okinawan), all 'batatas'.

[paulj]

With a little more digging I realized that these names are lot more confusing.

Sweet potatoes are sometimes called yams because Africans, either in Africa or the Americas (sources vary), noted a resemblance to the yam they were used to cultivating. And sweet potato has partially displaced the yam as a staple crop in Africa.

Our word 'potato' comes from the Spanish 'patata'. "The Spanish Royal Academy says the Spanish word is a compound of the Taino batata (sweet potato) and the Quechua papa (potato)" (Wiki). At times 'common potato' referred to the sweet potato, and 'white potato' meant the potato.

To confuse things further, the French talk about 'earth apples', while the Italians use 'golden apples' for a different New World plant.

[cheesemaestro]

The Austrians also call the potato "earth apple" (Erdapfel), unlike the Germans, who say "Kartoffel." In a restaurant in Vienna, I once made the mistake of using the word Kartoffel. I was immediately told in a stern voice by my server that that word is not used in Austria.

[linguafood]

They're called erdäpfel in parts of Germany, too. The Rhineland, for example.

[paulj]

The Wiki article claims (with citations) that the full name is

ḥummuṣ bi ṭaḥīna, which means "chickpeas with tahini".

Why do you oppose changing the 'chickpea' part but ok with dropping the tahini part?

[melpy]

Today I bought a can of Israeli tahina and after getting read the ingredients listing chickpeas. Now I am worried I have hummus bi tahina instead of what I wanted. Nomenclature is confusing and labeling is even more confusing.

I have to look very carefully to ensure my tomato sauce in a can doesn't contain peppers because I despise peppers in my red sauce.

[iluvcookies]

I've noticed more and more that canned tomatoes contain seasonings... basil, "italian seasoning", garlic and oil. All I want are plain tomatoes in their juice please!

[melpy]

Yes! Have to look closely to see what you get.

[cresyd]

In Israel/Hebrew, hummus is almost never called "hummus bi tahina" (which in Hebrew would translate to 'chickpeas in tahina' and linguistically would bring to mind whole chickpeas floating in tahina).

What brand of tahina is it?

[cresyd]

In the Middle East, it is extremely rare to see the full name listed. While "hummus with hummus" would be ordered, hummus with tahini with hummus (or fava beans, or meat, or pine nuts) would not be the ordered.

Ultimately my point was that (to me and my fussiness) the product known in the Western world as humus requires the inclusion of chickpeas.

[DeppityDawg]

On the other hand, if an English-language menu offered "hummus" or said that such-and-such was "served with hummus" and it turned out to be whole, cooked chickpeas, you'd have a lot of disappointed and annoyed customers. It's nice to know what the word "hummus" means in Arabic, but that information will not help you use it successfully in English.

[cresyd]

In an Arabic or Hebrew speaking community, if a menu said "hummus" (in either language) and you just got whole chickpeas, native Arabic and Hebrew speakers would be equally disappointed.

[DeppityDawg]

That would mean that in those languages the word "hummus" also refers in most situations specifically to a dip/spread/puree. So you can't really blame English speakers for taking that idea and running with it and extending it to similar recipes…

After all, we already have a word for "chickpea": it's "garbanzo". :D

[cresyd]

To explain in full (though I get the impression you're just playing devil's advocate) - if a dish was listed with a set of ingredients that included "humus" - then it would be referring to the chickpeas. However, if there was a restaurant item listed as "humus" on its own, then it would refer to the spread. It's about context.

Regardless, I'm sure for another person it's not humus if there's no tahini (and I know others that feel that humus served without olive oil on top remains "unfinished"). To each their own. This is just mine.

[DeppityDawg]

If I wanted to play devil's advocate, I might say that vinegar, based on the French origin of the word, can only be made from wine. In my world there will never be "cider vinegar" or "malt vinegar". Also, in my world mincemeat pies must contain minced meat, because that's how it was historically and because it's right there in the *bleeping* name of the thing, duh. If you're not going to respect the origins and the true meanings of words, at least have the decency to translate them into Arabic or something.

[Harters]

As you say, DD, mince pies used to contain minced meat. However, in the UK, that practice seems to have died out in the early 19th century. Modern pies though are still generally unsuitable for vegetarians as they retain "meat" in the form of suet.

[Wawsanham]

There's a fine line between being accurate to the meaning of something, and acknowleging that that name used in a new linguistic context (ie. another language) is not the same name as in the original language. Perhaps, in American English, "hummus" just is starting to mean "spread." Maybe the solution would be to promote the use of the word "spread" instead of "hummus" altogether.
The same holds for other words like "panini, fajita, sushi" etc... Those words are not being used in their languages of origin; therefore, there is no need to adhere to the rules of those languages.

[DeppityDawg]

The voice of reason and rationality! Too bad it'll never catch on.

[Wawsanham]

Thanks!

[thimes]

Good point - just made me want to through "chips" into the mix - a la "Fish and Chips".

Chips are "french fries", when did we decide to change it to mean thin crispy potato chips. There is an English to English difference.

[sunshine842]

http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodfaq1....

[Harters]

Chips are chips. French fries are what Americans call those thin chip like things they eat. Different thing altogether.

[redfish62]

Crisps are what the British call chips, and chips are fries, and biscuits are cookies, and birds are chicks.

[sunshine842]

and Harters and his cohorts call thin crispy potato chips "crisps", not chips, unless I am horribly, horribly mistaken.

Crossed the stream with redfish.

and scones are biscuits.

[Harters]

Somewhere, back in the mists of time (about a year ago), there was a very long thread comparing British English and American English. I was surprised just how different it was just keeping on food - I'm gobsmacked we are able to understand each other. And that was without getting into the further differencs in Australian and New Zealand English.

By the by, birds are creatures which fly. They havnt been girls/women since the 1960s (except in Austin Powers films, which is pretty much the same thing)

[sunshine842]

I had a friend from Rotherham in the early 90s who called women birds -- we let him slide because he was a gentleman in every other aspect

[Harters]

Ahh. Rotherham, eh?

Explains all :-0

[sunshine842]

that's why I put it in there -- just for you!

He's actually a really great guy - one of the ones I'm sorry to have lost track of over the years. (and he has an aggravatingly common name, so Googling turns up several million people more than I'm going to page through one at a time)

[cheesemaestro]

"I'm gobsmacked we are able to understand each other."

Illustrating your point, we Americans are not "gobsmacked." We may be dumbfounded or flabbergasted, but we're not gobsmacked!

[redfish62]

To me gobsmacked sounds like what happens when you are walking on the beach and a flock of seagulls happens to pass overhead.

[Harters]

Whereas it actually suggests that you have been made speechless by being smacked in the mouth.

[sunshine842]

which I *hope* never happens with a seagull...

[Harters]

There's a tiny island off the north east coast of England which is a bird sanctuary. You can visit at certain times of the year. We did - and a particular species was nesting all over the island. They were only quite tiny birds but fiercely defended the area round the nest - attacking humans by diving to our heads and pecking us (and crapping on us as well, although that bit probably was not deliberate)

[sunshine842]

lolz -- quite tiny, very defensive -- are they a typical woodland species?

[Perilagu Khan]

Wasn't there some confection (or was it confit?) called Everlasting Gobsmackers?

[iluvcookies]

Everlasting Gobstoppers... it was a Wonka brand (here in the US anyway)

[fldhkybnva]

Yes, indeed they were fantabulous! Do they no longer exist?

[iluvcookies]

I just googled and it seems they do still exist. I haven't seen them much lately though.

[fldhkybnva]

I remember many a choking incident when I would inhale them a bit too quickly in the car.

[Perilagu Khan]

I guess your gob got stopped. Really not a joking matter, though.

[fldhkybnva]

Yea, many a scary moment but they always came back up. I also had a general jawbreaker love. My grandmother had a booth at the Reading Terminal Market in Philadelphia and there was this fabulous candy shop with humongous jawbreakers. I would stock up and suck on them all day, but had to be very careful when they got just the right size to fit down my trachea. Very fortunate, that there were no unfortunate accidents.

[sunshine842]

some of us are...but then, I'm the weird one out on that one. Because I used to work extensively with UK companies, I taught myself UK spelling and grammar, and watched a lot of British television so I'd be up on the pop culture and not talk or feel like such an alien during my frequent visits. As such, my spelling is now horrendous, and my vocabulary is a bizarre mashup of the two.

now that I've added French to the mix, it's even worse!

[CanadaGirl]

Us Canadians have some differences too...

[linguafood]

AND finally ON TOPIC AGAIN.

[cresyd]

In general, I completely agree with what you're saying. My post isn't about a call to arms to bring people to task for misusing humus or martini. But rather, I think the greater trend is that all of us have food and terms that we are more connected to and thus less flexible on the globalization of the concept.

For one person a duck gyro might be a celebration of culinary innovation and for another it's a perversion of a tradition. That's what I was most interested in.

[thimes]

I'm sure many of us got your original intent. These posts just take on a life of their own. If you just read the primary posts you still get the intent without all the huffing and puffing. ;)

[JenJeninCT]

I more often than not get the hairy eyeball when I order a Yee-roe (vs JYE-roe)

[chefj]

But you are correct, I get the same ) - :

[jmcarthur8]

There's a restaurant in town named Spiro Gyro. The locals pronounce it 'spy-ro jie-ro', but I like the way my New Yorker hubby says 'spee-rro yheerro'

[kubasd]

I'd pronounce it the same way as your husband.... and most likely cringe at the local pronunciation. Then again, my college was in the next town over from one called Buena Vista that was pronounced Byoo-na Vista.... shudder.

[pippimac]

Aah, pronunciation pedantry.Now we're talkin my language!
According to every server I can remember, 'brooshetta' is a popular bread-based snack in the Antipodes...

[Hobbert]

Must have been near Buchanan pronounced Buck-han-nin...

[sunshine842]

I used to wait tables in a restaurant owned by a Greek guy. One day soon after I started, he heard me call it a gyro (like in gyroscope or gyrocopter) he walked over to me, gently squeezed my cheeks (the ones on my face ;) )and said "yee-ro, yee-ro, yee-ro", much to the amusement of the rest of the staff.

I've never said it any other say since.

[redfish62]

I still call it a gy-ro out of sheer stubbornness. If they want me to call it a yee-ro they have to change the spelling.

[sunshine842]

actually, if you listen very carefully to the pronunciation from a native speaker, the G is there -- but a soft g, like in guppy or golf.

I made him laugh by trying to combine the soft g with the rolled r like he pronounced it, so he declared my "yeero" close enough.

[sisterfunkhaus]

I order it that way as well. I often say How-da instead of goo-da for Gouda and have had people correct me.

[mamachef]

I say it that way too, and right or wrong (since there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer) I think it's pretty well ingrained by now.

[Harters]

Me too - ever since I visited Gouda 35+ years back. Easy way round pronunciation issues- just buy the tastier Dutch cheeses, like Leerdammer, instead of Gouda or Edam. .

[Tripeler]

My Dutch friend tells me that very little cheese is being made in the town of Gouda these days as it has become pretty much a residential suburb, and that the actual cheese is being made farther away from the developed areas in smaller towns with different names. Still being called Gouda cheese, though.

[Harters]

Wiki turns up an interesting Gouda fact. In that Gouda is in the province of South Holland - but it is a North Holland Gouda that has European Union PGS status.

[Tripeler]

Funny thing, I have never had any Gouda I though very much of. For that style of cheese, I prefer the hard Swiss cheeses like Emmenthal and the like. Actually, I really like low-fat Emmenthal and Jarlsberg.

[Harters]

Me too. I find most Dutch cheeses bland and boring, even they well matured ones. Fine for breakfast but, even then, I prefer a more Emmenthal style, like Leerdammer, to the common ones like Edam and Gouda.

[JungMann]

What is this Edam you speak of? We call that cheese queso de bola. It's considered a necessity for a well-appointed Christmas table and at that time of year can command a price suitable for hostess gift-giving.

[Harters]

Edam is the other main cheese produced in the Netherlands. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edam_(ch.... In its usual state, it is pretty much identical to Gouda

[cheesemaestro]

Have you never tried an aged Gouda? I'm talking about one that has been aged at least two years (and up to five years). Full of luscious toffee and butterscotch flavors and the antithesis of bland and boring. I have to agree with you about Edam, though.

[Harters]

Yes, I've tried aged Gouda - usually in the form of Old Amsterdam but, also, in the occasional farm cheese.

[Veggo]

And of course subs, grinders, hoagies, and wedges.

[Perilagu Khan]

Not to mention heroes and torpedos.

[Gio]

Around here it used to be Submarine Sandwiches...

[sr44]

Paninis

[thimes]

LOL

just try ordering a "panino" and see the looks you get ;)

[Perilagu Khan]

They'll get their paninis in a wad.

[arashall]

LOL!

[sandylc]

HA

[westaust]

I don't mind it if an appropriate description is made next to the name if it's not the original meaning!

Black Bean Hummus ok, serve me black bean hummus is only hummus is listed on the menu, there I might have a problem! Same with pesto, i love sundried tomato pesto, but don't sell me on a classic basil pesto to then serve the sundried tomato one!

[ipsedixit]

"Sammies"

[shudders]

[lcool]

of turkey pastrami

[NonnieMuss]

Agreed. The word "sammie" makes my skin crawl. I'm also not fond of menus playfully using "Sammich", but nothing is as bad as "sammies".

[jmcarthur8]

Brekkies is a close second in the skin-crawling department. If you tell me you had brekkies while having a convo on your vacay I will probably toss my sammies.

[Perilagu Khan]

Heh. I heard that.

[sisterfunkhaus]

I had to look that up. If someone said that to me, I would be so tempted to slap them upside the head. It's worse than people who use the term "besties" to describe their best friend. I know it isn't food related, but it's such a similar term and so annoying.

[Tripeler]

Gee, Nonnie, that word never makes my skin crawl...

[sr44]

Veggies. I don't know why but I find the word very irritating.

[CanadaGirl]

Really?! So what do you say instead? Do you say "vegetables", or are you always specific?

[sr44]

Yes to both.

[chefj]

I think I threw up in my mouth a little! That word and Sliders. Horrible!

[paulj]

I don't see any parallel between the error in talking about 'black bean hummus' and the use of 'sammies'. The complaint about misapplying 'hummus' is half way original. The complaint about using 'sammies' is old and shop worn.

[chefj]

Guess you cant control where these conversations lead. Take a deep breath and let it go

[greygarious]

In MA, I sometimes hear "sang-gwitch". Don't know which witch is "wurst".

[sunshine842]

you hear sangwitch in the Latin communities in Florida, too -- I consider that an ethnic variation, not an abomination.

[mamachef]

Same w/ "Okemeal."

[Perilagu Khan]

Same with Bombay.

[greygarious]

Interesting - I heard it first from an equal-opportunity bigoted coworker, a white man of Irish descent.

[sisterfunkhaus]

Ugh. Sammy, sammich, samwhich and all other similar terms are like nails on a chalk board to me.

[redfish62]

How about fish names. Going from "Dolphin" to "Mahi" was somewhat understandable because a lot of people don't know the difference between a mammal and a fish, but why did we go from "Yellowfin Tuna" to "Ahi Tuna"?

"Yellowfin Tuna" is a perfectly good name.

[chefj]

Those are just the Hawaiian names.
There are many others for both of those fish.

[fldhkybnva]

This was my general understanding as well. In Hawaii, tuna is referred to as ahi and generally refers to bigeye tuna. However, as bigeye and yellowfin are fairly similar, on the mainland they have come to be used interchangeably.

[redfish62]

I've seen it mostly as Ahi here in the southeast ever since the seared tuna with sesame seeds dish became popular, back when it was mostly eaten in the form of a grilled steak it was Yellowfin.

Now even the frozen Yellowfin is often referred to as Ahi.

Have no idea what Hawaii has to do with the southest.

[sunshine842]

I started using mahi instead of dolphin about the time I got sick and tired of explaining No, it's not flipper - IT'S A FISH.

Even in Florida, where mahi run thick all the way around the coastline and contribute a not-insignificant amount to the state economy (charters, table), people think you're eating the mammal if you say "dolphin".

There are a few folks in the Keys who say dolphin and know it means fish...but they're a minority.

[chefj]

We had the same problem in New England and the Mid Atlantic.

[fldhkybnva]

The consumption of raw and seared tuna is very popular in Hawaii and from my understanding has only recently become popular here among the general public. As such, the use of ahi as used in Hawaii has been adopted even if the tuna used in a dish is yellowfin and not bigeye tuna.

[NonnieMuss]

"Bacon" and "burger". If you have to qualify it with "veggie", "turkey" or any other word, I don't want it. Also "Slider" - a restaurant near me serves chicken cordon bleu sliders. That's not a slider! A slider is a gross/delicious little burger! Also restaurants take great liberties with the word "butter". If it's margarine or spread, you shouldn't be allowed to put "butter" on the menu.

But then again if I mention "champagne" and someone pipes up with the "sparkling wine" factoid, it drives me nuts. I try to keep my little neuroses to myself.

[mamachef]

We didn't keep full Kosher when I was growing up, but butter was never on the table due to some neurosis about the milk/meat combo. So, if you asked for butter? Wasn't going to be passed until you asked for the margarine.

[sisterfunkhaus]

I specifically think of a slider as a White Castle burger.

[beevod]

Head cheese.

[sunshine842]

if you call it fromage de tete, it sounds better.

[Maximilien]

I believe it is translated as "Tête Fromagée" ?

[sunshine842]

No. It's Fromage de Tête. Cheese from the head (loosely, "headcheese") -- not cheesed head, which is what you wrote.

Neither one of them are cheese, really.

[Gio]

My bete noir is Marinara Sauce. Not gravy. A true Marinara Sauce consists of:
Tomatoes
Garlic
Olive Oil
Sea Salt & Black Pepper
Fresh Basil
Pecorino Romano Cheese
Period. No carrots, no onion, no sugar, no nuttin' else.

[jjjrfoodie]

Oh, but what type and consistaqncy of the toh-moh-toes?

Canned?
Fresh? If fresh, I assmue plumb/romas?
San Marzanos?
If san marzanos, Cali or Italian?
If whole canned, crushed by hand? Or food mill? Or something else?

Lots of "if's" and "ism's " in what you typed Mssr/Madame/Mlle Gio.

LOTS of if's and ism's.

LOL

[Gio]

"Canned?"
Can be... LOL

"Fresh? If fresh, I assmue plumb/romas?"
Can be plums. Can be Romas. Can be 'other' also.

"San Marzanos?"
Can be, though I don't like them.

"If san marzanos, Cali or Italian?"
Italiano first, California if necessary. Or do you mean Cali, Colombia?

"If whole canned, crushed by hand?"
Can be

"Or food mill?"
Can be

"Or something else?"
What else ya got?

"Lots of "if's" and "ism's " in what you typed Mssr/Madame/Mlle Gio."

Signed, Senora Gio

[greygarious]

True, marinara sauce is not gravy. Neither is Italian tomato sauce containing meat. Gravy is a relatively small amount of meaty sauce made from the drippings/fond of cooked meat, thickened with a starch and slightly extended via addition of an alcoholic beverage and/or dairy in liquid form. Rarely, another liquid like coffee or fruit juice may be involved, but no tomato and not in a large volume relative to the amount meat it accompanies.;-) Sort of kidding, but after moving to MA from my native Long Island, and also having lived in western NY, I had NO idea why my coworker said she was making what I understood to be spaghetti covered in turey gravy for Christmas. I will never use the term "gravy" in reference to pasta sauce.

But I certainly recognize that there are cultural and ethnic influences on food names and that often, the incorrect term is a useful shorthand explaining what the preparation is like, e.g. watermelon carpaccio. This is going to be thinly sliced, and covered with some sort of transparent, pourable dressing or marinade.

[paulj]

http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodmeats...

"In French meat cookery, jus is roughly equivalent to honestly made thin gravy in the British tradition"
Oxford Companion to Food, Alan Davidson

but in Italian-American tradition ...

[thimes]

Osso Buco is one of mine.

It is (of course in my opinion) by definition braised shank - thus the literal "bone hole" translation. If it doesn't have the bone, or the "hole" and marrow then how is it Osso Buco. If it is just braised meat, then it is just braised meat not Osso Buco.

[Perilagu Khan]

Pesto made without basil as the primary green. To my mind, that's just not pesto.

Vegetarian "chili" is another.

[linguafood]

Funny. I made a fab parsley-pecorino-pistachio pesto once for a pasta dish. Mostly for alliteration purposes, of course.

Tasty, too.

[sunshine842]

pesto just means paste -- as with "confit" above, you're going to have to take on half of Italy to win that battle.

[melpy]

That is what I was going to say. However, if you don't clarify in English I will assume the flavors to be basil and pine but. All other variations should be qualified in some way.

[Perilagu Khan]

De jure, that is correct. De facto, pesto is taken to mean an uncooked pasta sauce made from basil, olive oil, pine nuts, garlic and a hard Italian cheese.

[sunshine842]

In English.

[Perilagu Khan]

And what do Italians call what we Yanks term pesto? IIRC, when I was in Venice I ordered gnocchi a la pesto and received exactly what I would get if I ordered it in New York or Cleveland.

[linguafood]

Basil pesto is generally referred to as pesto genovese, as it originates in Genoa (although it apparently has roots in North Africa and India).

The more you know.... cue rainbow.

[linguafood]

But English is the only language we know, and the only language that matters '-)

[Perilagu Khan]

It is the closest thing the human race has to a lingua franca. Much to the chagrin of the French. ;)

[sunshine842]

no chagrin on my part - I'm not French.

[Perilagu Khan]

I actually surmised as much. Your English is too, too good.

[linguafood]

Actually, pesto is "the contracted past participle of the Genoese word pestâ (Italian: pestare), which means to pound, to crush".

[sunshine842]

I'll accept that.

[cheesemaestro]

Yes. Technically, "pesto" only applies to something that has been pounded or ground into a paste, as with a mortar and pestle. Italian has other words for a paste that results from mixing things together: impasto and, sometimes, pasta, which, as we use the term in English, is just flour and water mixed to form a dough or paste, then shaped and cooked.

We need to be cautious when we rely on etymology to tell us how a word can be used, as over time, or in a particular context, the word may have taken on a different or a more restricted meaning, as is the case with "pesto." Likewise, in the discussion about "confit" earlier in this thread, it's worth pointing out that the words "confection" and "confectionery" both come from the same Latin root words as "confit": cum (= with) and facere (=to do or to make). Nonetheless, despite the common derivation, they can't be used interchangeably. We don't call duck parts preserved in duck fat a confection, nor do we refer to a box of bonbons as a confit.

The interesting question for me is how far we can deviate from what we understand the standard definition of a word to be and still be able to use that word. In the case of pesto, I would have no problem substituting cilantro for the classic basil and walnuts for pine nuts and still calling the result "pesto." That is probably because I haven't violated the basic formula of fresh green herb + nuts + garlic + cheese + oil. However, if I decided to pound some cannellini beans and garlic into a paste, I would hesitate to call that "pesto," since, to my mind, it diverges too much from how I would normally use that word.

[sunshine842]

I bought a few jars of a walnut pesto that is to die for.

But you're right -- beans then makes it too far out of the 'circle".

[cresyd]

Well, then you could call it hummus - but I guess it would be my job to complain :)

Traditionally, hummus is made by pounding the ingredients with these very large mortar and pestles.

[redfish62]

"Martini" tends to set me off if the drink in question contains neither gin nor vermouth

[Chinon00]

Absolutely. And if you're afraid of how booze tastes you shouldn't be drinking in the first place.

[iluvcookies]

I can allow for vodka in a martini (James Bond does...) but apple, watermelon, chocolate? No, those are not martinis. They are frilly girl drinks served in a martini glass.

[Chinon00]

James Bond raising an apple or watermelon "martini" to his lips. Could you imagine?

[iluvcookies]

I can picture Connery's Bond looking at the drink with it's sugary rim, pulling out his Walther PPK and pointing it at the bartender. "What is the meaning of this? Did Blofeld put you up to this?"

[Uncle Bob]

Hahahaha!!

[Midknight]

"An Apple-choco-tini. Shaken, not stirred."
I dunno. That seems to have a nice, suave ring to it, does it not? :D

[iluvcookies]

Mabye for Moneypenny.... :)

[Perilagu Khan]

Or Severin.

[iluvcookies]

Yes, that's more appropriate. Moneypenny could probably hold her own against 007.

[Harters]

"Moneypenny could probably hold her own against 007."

And often very much wanted to. ;-)

[iluvcookies]

Oh, Harters.....

[kubasd]

yes.

[chefj]

That was the start of the slippery slope.

[tastesgoodwhatisit]

Yeah - putting something in a martini glass does not make it a martini. I would define a classic martini as either gin or vodka, plus vermouth, and possibly an olive. I'll even allow for some alternate garnishes. But if you put put mango flavoured vodka, peach schnapps and a lemon candy in a martini glass, you've created a new drink.

On the other extreme - if you skip the garnish, and make it so dry that there's no vermouth in it, you're not drinking a martini - you're drinking vodka/gin out of a martini glass.

[mamachef]

A bartender where I worked used to make those straight-up gin or vodka versions whenever anyone asked for a very very very very dry martini. :)

[kubasd]

Same here! They made a great martini.... for those that actually liked martinis.

[Perilagu Khan]

Exactly. Although a lemon twist is also an acceptable garnish.

[sisterfunkhaus]

This is my biggest word pet peeve. I can deal with vodka martinis, and even dirty martinis. But as a martini lover (both gin and vodka) I can't deal with fruity drinks being called martinis.

[sr44]

Amen.

[mamachef]

I had an almost-visceral reaction last year when someone posted a question about "Meat Hamentaschen." Now, I don't have a problem with someone calling latkes "potato pancakes." Chopped liver? Call it that, or call it chicken liver pate. Hell, call it Gehatke Leiber, if you want to. But Meat Hamentaschen? No, no no. That's just WRONG. So wrong it can never be made right. :)

[cresyd]

Oh that sounds horrible...

[melpy]

Now I want to eat Hamentashen.

[mamachef]

But not meat ones, right?

[melpy]

I'll pass on that.

[Wawsanham]

Why would there even conceivably be a problem with calling "potato pancakes" "potato pancakes?" I accept that some people call them "latkes." :)

[linguafood]

No. They're called Kartoffelpuffer.

[chefj]

Nein, Reibekuchen!

[linguafood]

Wenn schon, denn schon: Riefkooche

:-)

[JungMann]

Griaß di, Reiberdatschi!

[linguafood]

HA! You southerners....

[RUK]

Haven't heard that in a while. -:)

[mamachef]

I said I didn't have a problem with it, but some people do. Different strokes. Peace.

[merrua]

boxty or potato cakes

[sunshine842]

You mean nobody's mentioned Rösti yet?

[lcool]

I am fairly pissy about it,it is a long list.Just a few here.
Fajita........is a charted,butcher cut of BEEF.....skirt steak
London Broil .....is a recipe.....NOT a cut of beef
Sushi ..... is rice

At my age I've seen the marketing gimmick bastardization of much.As globalization continues to play a larger and larger role,with every manner of ingredient and culture cross pollinating I think to expect more and get used to it,as long as AVA's,DOCG's and other historic heritage designations are respected totally.

[paulj]

'fajita' is a little strip (diminutive of faja).

But it is a good example of the evolution of a name, from a regional use of beef trimmings (e.g. skirt) to something that is common in restaurants around the country

http://www.austinchronicle.com/food/2...

The first time I had it was at a catered conference meal in Austin in the mid 1980s. There is was the whole grilled piece of meat (I can't guaranteed that they used skirt or not), sliced thin, and served with tortillas and the fixings. Strips of beef (much less other meats) grilled and served on a hot skillet is definitely an evolution from that.

[lcool]

Like nearly everything listed in this thread,we just have to get used to it.

[twyst]

Im guilty of bastardizing quite a few food terms I must admit. The one that gets on my nerves is confit. ITS NOT POSSIBLE TO MAKE GARLIC CONFIT OR TOMATO CONFIT ETC ETC SO JUST STOP IT ALREADY. Ok, glad I got that off my chest. I realize that the meaning of the word has slowly changed, but to me a confit has to be cooked in its OWN fat.

[chefj]

That is not true.
You can make Confit of virtually anything. The word means to Preserve.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confit
I French you need to say what kind of Confit you are talking about Ie: Confit de Canard, Confit de Tomates,Confit d'échalotes. You can also in other things than fats, Confit au Vinaigre, Sugar or Honey

[thimes]

I don't have a good culinary source with me right now but I have to agree that the proper use of confit is to cook a meat in its own fat. Now over time that may have changed but I think those changed are a in conflict with the original meaning (the topic of the thread).

[PSZaas]

You can agree all you want, but it doesn't make it so. Just think of "confiture," which is fruit preserves. To confit something is to preserve it.

[kubasd]

The OED dictionary defines it as cooking meat slowly in its own fat, but also as coming from the French ‘conserved’, from confire ‘ to prepare’.

[chefj]

See sunshine842 below

[kubasd]

yeah, I'd posted it prior to that reply, but it's good to see people agree :)

[thimes]

Hmmm. Good point. I'm hanging my coat on the "not a French culinary language historian" on this one and bowing out.

[chefj]

Actually the opposite has happened. The word started off simply meaning "preserved" in any way, salt, fat, sugar, vinegar and has narrowed over the centuries.

[sunshine842]

if that's the case, you have a big job ahead of you, taking on half the prepared-foods industry in France.

The word "confit" is used to describe pretty much anything preserved -- and it's their word, so I reckon they're the ones who know how to use it.

[twyst]

"if that's the case, you have a big job ahead of you, taking on half the prepared-foods industry in France.

The word "confit" is used to describe pretty much anything preserved -- and it's their word, so I reckon they're the ones who know how to use it."

While I agree that confit is used to describe everything now, unless I am greatly mistaken this has not always been the case. Cooking bibles like escoffier and larousse only contain recipes for confit that is cooked in its own fat, and its also how it is taught in CIA and le cordon Bleu curriculums.

[lcool]

Sorry to disagree,older editions in English,pre 90's and all of mine in French of Escoffier , Larousse and Le Cordon Bleu spanning decades use "confit",treat the word in proper French.

[twyst]

Then I shall defer to you as my newer versions only list duck and goose confit.

[lcool]

Interesting,my 2006 and 2008 editions of garde manger & professional chef add,one for salmon and one for pork.Using a phase ,meat,traditionally goose or duck,to include X,as above.

[chefj]

They are American Books and it is a French technique and word.

[lcool]

going back up to twyst's post above and mine I was remarking about the inconstant,fickle differences between two modern US editions,not about older US or French books discussed above that.

[Maximilien]

What if it is Humus (the spread) made with Humus (the bean) with additional Black Beans ?

I think that Humus (spread) has become the generic term for a class of spread made with beans (different from a white beans dip).

The same thing with Pesto (which is basically a "paste"), but "purists" will tell you that it is only made with such and such ingredients.

Same thing with "Sushi" ... which as become a generic term for whatever is "rolled" (for the sake of simplicity) in nori with rice.

Personally, I don't really care; as long as it tastes good, I'm ok with that.

Max.

[cresyd]

To me, if the spread was made with both chickpeas and blackbeans - I would be fine with that being called humus, as nontraditional as it would be. Chickpea just needs to be a significant component of the spread (by my definition).

[Harters]

Using houmous as the example, I think it's simply menu shorthand describing a dish in a way that customers will readily understand. Most folk will know what houmous is, so to describe something as a "black bean houmous" is easier than describing it as a "black bean dip, similar in texture and seasoning to houmous"

That said, folk who call a dish using beef "shepherd's pie" deserve to be taken down a dark alley and be given a good talking to . Or maybe worse. ;-)

[paulj]

which is nearly as bad as using lamb in 'squab pie', or bangers in place of toads