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Cold siphon coffee [from Manhattan board]

kosmose7 Jul 13, 2012 09:33 PM

I've seen many restaurants serving iced siphon coffee (not in New York though. Don't know if there is any such place). Cold water is added to the coffee grind very very slowly and it isn't something like adding hot water then cooling it with ice later. They never heat the iced coffee.

  1. uhockey Jul 13, 2012 09:40 PM

    That is a pour over. The entire concept of the Siphon is the heating of the water causing it to bubble up and then allowing it to cool and fall back by gravity. See also, a Toddy, as I stated above, which can be used both as a slow light brew or to generate coffee concentrate (its true use.)

    http://endoedibles.com

    24 Replies
    1. re: uhockey
      kosmose7 Jul 13, 2012 09:55 PM

      As far as I understand, Toddy brewing is soaking coffee grind in cold water for long to extract coffee. Cold brewing using siphon is dripping cold (or room temperature) water over coffee grind for an extended period. There is a difference.

      1. re: kosmose7
        uhockey Jul 13, 2012 10:15 PM

        ....the siphon is merely a device, much like the Toddy. You could place a plug in either one and make a concentrate. The fact is, the concept of a siphon is the brew mechanism - boiling up from the bottom and letting it distill down. This doesn't work with cold. You are referring to a pour over. I could make a "cold (room temperature)" pour over with a Toddy, a Siphon, a Chemex, or even a funnel with a filter.

        There is a difference - and no matter what device you are using the mechanistics of a siphon system are completely wasted on cold coffee.

        http://endoedibles.com

        1. re: uhockey
          kosmose7 Jul 13, 2012 10:18 PM

          Wouldn't different methods yield different flavors? If pour over methods using different equipment are all alike, I wonder why cold brewing using siphon would be a waste and Toddy is not?

          P.S. > I can see that Blue Bottle Mint Plaza, SF, has this siphon-brewed iced coffee called "Kyoto Style Siphon Drip Iced Coffee" .

          1. re: kosmose7
            uhockey Jul 14, 2012 10:03 AM

            No. They would not yield different flavors. The reason a siphon hot brew produced the flavor it does is the rapid heating and cooling. Go to a cupping course and learn about it.

            The reason it would be a "Waste" is because a Toddy is an ugly piece of plastic used only for cold brewing while a Siphon is a very pretty and elaborate piece of glass intended as a show piece.

            As to the Blue Bottle comment, I've been there and seen it, they simply do iced coffee that way. There is no point to it other than, perhaps, because that is the only equipment they have besides the pour overs. They use a stop-cock on the system to control the flow, but could accomplish the same thing with a funnel and a filter (or even a glass coffee pot, a cup, and a filter.)

            http://endoedibles.com

            1. re: uhockey
              kosmose7 Jul 14, 2012 11:02 AM

              Really? I thought the disadvantage of 'no heat' in cold siphon brewing method is offset by the one-drip-at-a-time approach, and therefore it yields more flavorful, ultra-concentrated taste than Toddy, which is basically soaking coffee grind in water.

              I have been drinking iced 'siphon' coffee in Japan lots of times and always thought they were richer in flavor.

              1. re: kosmose7
                uhockey Jul 14, 2012 11:29 AM

                Really. Just adjust exposure times with either method.

                http://endoedibles.com

                1. re: uhockey
                  kosmose7 Jul 14, 2012 12:08 PM

                  For me, Toddy was not as rich as cold siphon in flavor and that's why I don't use it at home either. Toddy just doesn't seem to give concentrated flavor as siphon.

                  1. re: kosmose7
                    uhockey Jul 14, 2012 02:58 PM

                    You didn't allow conact with the grounds for long enough then.

                    ...or else strong placebo effect.

                    http://endoedibles.com

                    1. re: uhockey
                      kosmose7 Jul 14, 2012 04:55 PM

                      If Toddy and 'siphon' (= 'Kyoto Style') yielded the same flavors, why would some shops use both methods? And they taste different?

                      Also, upon hearing your rather 'shocking (to me... LOL)' opinion, I was searching through the net and many sites classify them as different methods under the 'cold brew' category. And often they say these two methods yield different flavors (just as I have believed). For instance: http://eatocracy.cnn.com/2012/06/20/5...

                      P.S.> While surfing online, I have learned that the term 'pour over' is used when heating is involved, so Toddy does not seem to be referred to as 'pour over'.

                      1. re: kosmose7
                        uhockey Jul 14, 2012 05:14 PM

                        A pour over is simply "pouring over." You can do it cold or hot.

                        An Oji and a Siphon are different. And you could slow a Toddy or even a funnel down with a stopcock to go at "48 drips a minute." Once again, it is all about the exposure time, not the toy you use to make it (as I've been saying all along)

                        http://endoedibles.com

                        1. re: uhockey
                          kosmose7 Jul 14, 2012 06:15 PM

                          * pour-over vs cold brew:

                          http://portolacoffeelab.wordpress.com/tag/iced-coffee/

                          * Yes, I know Oji is not Siphon, but as you say, if it is not the machine but the exposure time that makes difference, why would the author here say Kyoto Style tastes different from say, Toddy? http://eatocracy.cnn.com/2012/06/20/5...

                          I am not trying to argue my point. I like iced coffee, but I am not a coffee expert. It is just something that I have not heard of before, and I get conflicting information. I will search further to figure it out.

                          1. re: kosmose7
                            Delucacheesemonger Jul 14, 2012 06:42 PM

                            Sort of like Wimbledon here, you guys have hit 14 shots in this rally, well done.

                            1. re: kosmose7
                              f
                              ferret Jul 16, 2012 05:03 AM

                              Marketing, nothing more.

                              1. re: ferret
                                uhockey Jul 16, 2012 07:09 AM

                                Precisely.

                                Given good beans and a burr grinder I could make really amazing cold brew using filtered water, a funnel, a tampon, a stopcock, and a solo cup plus the appropriate time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGyver

                                http://endoedibles.com

                                1. re: ferret
                                  f
                                  ferret Jul 16, 2012 09:40 AM

                                  When you extract with heat then there are a number of factors that come into play that can potentially affect flavor (how hot; how long is the coffee exposed to heat,.how large the grind, etc.). Cold water extraction doesn't have the same nuances. In fact, a lot of coffee purists reject cold brewing entirely because you don't extract the full spectrum of flavor from the bean without an appropriate level of heat. But from my perspective the flavors that aren't extracted are the ones I don't want.

                                  1. re: ferret
                                    kosmose7 Jul 16, 2012 05:06 PM

                                    Yeah, I read your previous comment regarding this issue as well.

                                  2. re: kosmose7
                                    kosmose7 Jul 16, 2012 05:03 PM

                                    There are many coffee shops that sell both cold siphon and Toddy and they taste different. Are you saying they are probably using different filtered water, different funnel, different tampon, different stopcock, or different time? Or are they selling basically the same stuff under different name?

                                    1. re: kosmose7
                                      uhockey Jul 16, 2012 05:43 PM

                                      No - they are using the Toddy to make extract and then diluting it while they are using the "siphon" to simply cold brew slowly. They are using different time.

                                      Let me ask you this - how, in your mind, does the device change the simple concept of water + time + beans?

                                      http://endoedibles.com

                                      1. re: uhockey
                                        kosmose7 Jul 16, 2012 07:21 PM

                                        So in other words, are you saying that those shops charge different prices under different names for what is practically identical in quality and flavor?

                                        I thought soaking coffee grind in water vs. slow dripping via siphon yielded different flavors, like, say, boiling vs. simmering.

                                        Here is another interesting page:

                                        http://www.home-barista.com/brewing/a...

                                        As both of you guys say that there is actually no difference in flavor, it really makes me curious and I will do a further research about this. :)

                                        1. re: kosmose7
                                          f
                                          ferret Jul 17, 2012 10:28 AM

                                          Re: Boiling vs. simmering:

                                          Cooking - i.e. applying heat - introduces a broad range of factors that may alter flavors. What's in dispute here is a possible difference in exposing the same coffee to cool water under slightly different conditions. It's a totally different comparison.

                                          1. re: ferret
                                            kosmose7 Jul 17, 2012 11:31 AM

                                            What could be the factors that make boiling vs. simmering a significantly different comparison from Toddy vs. siphon?

                                            1. re: kosmose7
                                              f
                                              ferret Jul 17, 2012 01:29 PM

                                              Boiling at sea level typically does not occur until you have achieved a temperature of 212 degrees F. A simmer can be reached below that temperature. There are many schools of thought relating to the effect of slight changes in temperature and extraction of flavor from foods, especially coffee. Take the Clover machine for example. It is designed to select the optimal precise brewing temperature and time for different beans/roasting methods. Altering either parameter can yield a different result.

                                              Dropping cold water on ground for an extended period or steeping the grounds in cold water doesn't make an appreciable difference. The whole idea behind cold brewing is that no heat is introduced and the oils that would otherwise be extracted at high temperatures don't end up in the coffee concentrate, they remain in the grounds which are then removed.

                                              1. re: ferret
                                                kosmose7 Jul 18, 2012 09:51 AM

                                                I absolutely agree with you on the first paragraph. It is the second paragraph that I wanna convince myself through further research.Whether "dropping cold water on ground for an extended period or steeping the grounds in cold water doesn't make an appreciable difference". Thanks for your comment.

                                                1. re: kosmose7
                                                  f
                                                  ferret Jul 18, 2012 01:47 PM

                                                  If you're willing to invest some time and money you can test it for yourself:

                                                  http://store.vstapps.com/collections/...

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