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Italia Trip September_Rome to Venice_Middle to Top

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Dear all.

I would really appreciate your help and guidance on this upcoming trip!

My girlfriend and I will be taking my parents for their first Italian trip this September (have been planning and saving for this a while now), so I hope I can count on you to make their experience of the cities, culture and great art a bit more memorable with the perfect culinary counterpart. They live in Miami and are in their 60's and we live in NYC and are in our early 30's.

I studied in Rome and travel extensively in Italy for two semesters during college and grad school, and have my old favorites that I am hoping to revisit, together with your priced suggestions.

Aside for doing a lot of reading in the boards, i have frequented several websites, downloaded Elizabeth Minchili' apps for Florence and Rome, and bought several books including Fred Plotkin' Italy for the Gourmet Traveler.

We are looking for great food leaning towards classic places, dishes and rustic atmosphere, ranging from the simple to the romantic. I particularly love wine and would love to hear also from your local suggestions, producers, and vintages you prefer for the places we are visiting. I am very exciting about this since it will be great weather and harvest season.

Most likely we will have out biggest meal at dinner, but are also looking for some great lunch recommendations. Our price range will be 250 euros for the 4 of us for dinner.

Our itinerary is as follows (14 total days) I know this schedule seems like a bit too much, but I am trying to balance a relaxing time in Tuscany and Chianti while also showing my parents the great Italian cities of Rome, Florence and Venice in their first trip.

Rome is a city I know very well and would love to hear your suggestions. I have chosen these places as a combination of old favorites and others discovered in this board.

DAY 1_Rome

Thinking of a classic place to introduce everyone to Roman food in our first night there. I am looking for a classic place with great standard fare (caccio peppe, carbonara, amatriciana, etc) . Could also be a Roman Jewish food in the Ghetto. Romantic setting indoors or in a piazza is a plus.

Options are: Nino, Armando Al Pantheon, Antico Arco, Roscioli and Taverna del Ghetto ( this is an old favorite (love their torta della nonna), but can't wait to hear your recommendations on Roman Jewish food)

DAY 2_Rome

Renato e Luisa (dinner)

This is another old favorite as i studied in Palazzo Lazzaroni across the street and Renato cooked our thanksgiving turkeys. Have always visited each time in Rome.

DAY 3_Rome

Ditirambo

DAY 4_Rome

Flavio Velavevodetto

For lunch we will probably head to Filetti di baccala, get some pizza, etc. We plan of eating light for lunch as not to waste too much time ,although was thinking of Roma Sparita because i am a huge fan of Cacio Peppe and their preparation seems different from all the other.

DAY 5_Umbria

We are renting a car at Termini the next day and driving to Umbria for some great early renaissance architecture and frescoes.

_Todi (visit Santa Maria della Conzolazione) possible have some lunch here and sample some of the great Sangrantino wine.

_ Assisi after lunch for Giotto and Saint Francis, and spend the night.

Dinner at Assisi (no plans yet)

DAY 6.

Visiting Montalcino (not sure what to do but i love the Brunellos and Rossos)

Siena (dinner)

Ristorante Guido is the only one that has caught my attention.

DAY 7. GREVE IN CHIANTI. Staying at Vignamaggio.

Wine tour at Castello Verrazano (lunch)

Dinner at Ristoro del Lamole.

Other options are:

Ristorante Malborghetto, Osteria del Castello, Badia a Coltibuono, Taverna dell Guerrino, Ristorante le Vigne in Radda.

Day 8. GREVE IN CHIANTI. Staying at Vignamaggio.

Wine tour at Vignamaggio.

Dinner at Officina della Bistecca (have reservations already)

Plan to visit some of the smaller towns such as Radda, Castellina, Panzano and possibly San Gimignano.

Day 9. FLORENCE

Dinner options are:

Cipolla Rossa, Cavolo Nero, Nerbone, Osteria dei Benci, Bucca dell'Orafo

Day 10. FLORENCE

Dinner at Sostanza (have reservations already)

Day 11. IMOLA, BOLOGNA

Dinner in Bologna (very undecided here!!)

Options are Da Gianni, Serghei, Taverna dei Lords, Caminetto D'oro, Trattoria Anna Maria, Giampi e Ciccio, Meloncello

Day 12, 13, 14. VENICE. (Staing at Leone Bianco)

We are planning on having cicetti at some Bacari for lunch those 3 days, that way we can have a quick lunch while sampling several dishes and some delicious wine. There are several great post in the boards for this.

Options are La Cantina, Al Prosecco.

Dinner: Options are Osteria alla Madonna, Antiche Carampane, Al Paradiso, Antica Locanda Montin, Al Garanghelo, La Zucca, Fiaschetteria Toscana.

I know this might be too much to take in but I hope to hear from your excellent experiences and suggestions. Thank you so much in advance!!!!

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  1. Day 6

    I hope you're going to Montalcino, not Montepulciano, for Brunellos and Rossos.

    1 Reply
    1. re: allende

      Right that is my mistake....Montalcino for Brunello of course..
      I have read that Montalcino is smaller and somehow nicer than Montepulciano....anyways this is a mythical city for any wine lover. Will definetly make it.
      Thanks Allende...any other thought.

    2. Are you going to Imola to eat at San Domenico? For lunch? If so, you are unlikely to want much of a dinner in Bologna. You might consider the bistro run by Caminetto d'Oro, called Trattoria Twinside, where there would be less pressure to order a full meal and it has a terrific wine list.

      But if you are looking for a full dinner in Bologna, I would take Trattoria Anna Maria off your list of possibilities for Bologna. My impression of Taverna dei Lords, having only walked by it, is that it is very much a sports bar pub with cheap food -- quite popular with Bolognese student locals, but not noted for its food. Serghei is a challenge for non-Italian speakers because there is no menu and no English spoken. Unless you are very familiar with the classic Bolognese menu, you may be uncertain what's available and what to order. Best food at Da Gianni runs to the richer dishes (cheese-stuffed pasta sauced with butter or egg pastas with sausage, or grilled mortadella or pork shanks). So if you think you might like something simpler, Giampi e Ciccio might be better. Both can be equally charming, with G & C veering toward the sweetly gregarious, and Gianni more warm and shy. If you want an upscale atmosphere, head to Caminetto d'Oro, but also give Teresina some consideration (especially if anybody declares a desire for fish).

      Overall, I would raise a flag about your plans to constantly make dinner your "big" meal of the day. Not only can it be nice to pause for a leisurely lunch while touring in Italy, it is sometimes the case that SOME people in their 60s -- or even in the 30s -- find it hard to take a big meal after 8pm.

      Also, since you have a great interest in wine, you might specifically focus on eating in wine bars for some lighter evening meals sometimes.

      If you only have 2 nights in Greve, I think San Gimignano is too far. In fact, if your hotel reservations aren't set in stone, you might skip overnighting in Siena and to directly to Greve from Assisi. See both Montalcino and Siena as daytrips from Greve, on separate days.

      19 Replies
      1. re: barberinibee

        Are you sure Tratoria Twinside has a terrific wine list? Caminetto d'Oro's was close to a disaster.

        1. re: allende

          Could be my partiality to French wine skews my memories, but its wine list was the most interesting one I saw in Bologna.

          1. re: barberinibee

            I don't understand " Could be my partiality to French wine skews my memories"?

            The fact that it was the most interesting in Bologna does not make it a terrific list.

            Niether eating nor drinking on a relative basis does much good for the diner or imbiber.

            1. re: allende

              I seldom deal in absolutes (and neither does anybody else in reality).

              My experience of dining in Bologna is that the local wines are poor and usually all that is available. Twinside broke the mold in that respect.

              In the wide, wide universe of wine, I find more French wines that I like than Italian ones. Eating in Italy, very few French wines turn up on wine lists. List at Trattoria Twinside has more than one of interest. "Oooooo, terrific!" I said. Hence, here my fingers fly with the same thought: terrific wine list for Bologna.

              OP might appreciate any place you care to recommend in E-R. They have a car. Or tell them to go to Piemonte. Or San Cassiano if you really want to be an absolutist.

              1. re: barberinibee

                ?

                1. re: allende

                  !

        2. re: barberinibee

          Thank you so much Barberinibee,
          (Really like your chow name...will say hello to your insignia in the works of Bernini in Rome...I love the Barberini bees in the small fountain by Piazza Tritone and of course in the Baldachino.

          Your suggestions and input are very thoughtful and sensitive. Thank you for all the recommendations and for opening my eyes to other plans. Will plan accordingly based on your comments.

          We are going to Imola because my father has some old friends there and to see the Rocca Sforzesca. San Domenico might be a good detour but i think it is out of our league prize wise for this trip and for our current plans. In Imola we just plan to have a snack or light lunch.

          We are indeed looking for a full dinner in Bologna and will carefully review your suggestions. The reason I listed Taverna dei Lords is because i ate there back in 2006 as a student when it was recommended by our hotel during a weekend trip (although i remember it to be a fairly nice place with a few locals and some foreigners, no students whatsoever...well I was at that time..but we were definitely the fish in the wrong pond there as we felt a little out of place . The memory of my experience there is quite a fond one with food on the heartier and heavier side, rich local specialties, and in a nice atmosphere. I am not sure how that would relate to my current tastes so I will follow your advice and skip it.

          I will definitely welcome great suggestions for lunch to rest and relax (one of my great previous lunches while traveling was a middle of the day stop at Bistrot de Paradou in the Luberon, southern France and that set a nice rhythm for the rest of the day. I will definitely research some lunch spots and possibly visit and enoteca for wine and small dishes for dinner.

          My italian is fairly apt to the challenge of Serghei, i would not want to skip the possibility of a great meal because of a communication barrier. I would love to hear what you think of it a bit more.

          Thank you again for your great reply!

          1. re: javi777

            My impressions of Taverna dei Lords may have been colored by walking by on a hot evening when some kind of important game was underway, so the front bar was crowded with TV-watchers and the doors and windows open -- so don't skip it solely on my say so. I've never eaten there.

            Serghei posts a menu outside and if you spend a few minutes studying it, you won't have any trouble ordering exactly what you want when asked. One of the chief virtues of Serghei is that it is one of the few Bolognese eateries that does well with its secondi, especially if you order braised turkey or braised pork shin. Most other recommended Bolognese eateries have fun pasta and there the story ends. (Teresina usually is solid for all courses.) The small interior psuedo-rustic space of Serghei is somewhat cramped and service is performed as a solo act by the owner (mom and wife are in the kitchen), so it is not a relaxed and leisurely dining experience but a bustling one. The patrons are usually in a convivial mood but the owner is a bit harried.

            Good to hear you won't be trying to combine San Domenico and a Bolognese dinner in the same day, but it is hard to believe old Italian friends' of your fathers will allow you all to escape without feeding you generously. You might hold off with making a reservation someplace in Bologna until you have some idea how hungry you are and what you are in the mood for.

            As for favoring big lunches over big dinners, you might think about switching out some of your already named picks for dinner in Rome or Florence for lunches instead.

            Also, I just noticed you said you were going to Todi with the intent of sampling Sagrantino. The home town of that wine is Montefalco, which is also a nice place to visit with sweet frescoes (but it is very steep). Under all circumstances, wherever you drink Sagrantino, you should sleep there, and not drive afterwards. It is very strong. (Many people would not rent a car in Termini but instead take a train to Orvieto to rent the car there plus see its gorgeous frescoed cathedral and drink its white wine. Even if you rented the car in Rome, the art and architecture of Orvieto might be more compelling for you than what's in Todi.)

            1. re: barberinibee

              Thanks barberini.
              I will definitely look a bit more into Serghei as it sounds wonderful the way you describe it.
              We had initially plan to stop by Orvieto but then decided against it because of time constrains, as much as I would love to see those wonderfully carved reliefs at the base of the cathedral.
              Sangrantino is a wine i have never had, although i recently purchased a bottled in NY which is on my cellar waiting to be opened. I do have heard about Sangrantino's hometown of Montefalco and particularly about L'Alchimista for a lunch spot and well as its fine enoteca. Any thought on it as a destination, first taste of Umbria after Roma?

              We will definetly stop by Todi as i must see the great Santa Maria della Consolazione (it’s been in all of my architecture books and is an early example of the pure centrally planned church in the way of Bramante and Leonardo, i believe the interior space will be sublime) and most likely will head to Montefalco for lunch (and frescoes?...will research this and thank for the tip) and Assisi afterwards.

              I will happily handle the keys after the Sangrantino bottle is emptied.

              1. re: javi777

                Our favorite art and architecture sights in Tuscany were the Piero frescos in the Arezzo area especially the fresco of the true cross in that town and the Madonna del Parto in a little town nearby http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_...) if you have time. We liked the feel of Assisi town but the Giottos are not of the highest level - you should definitely make time for the Scrovegni chapel in Padova if that is a priory for you (requires a reservation). an easy day trip from Venice, or even on the way from Bologna.

                there are other wonderful buildings similar to the Todi basilica in Tuscany, including San Biagio, outside the walls of iMontepulciano
                http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiesa_d...

                There are many recommendations on this Board for restaurants in Tuscany and Umbria - once you settle your schedule, they will be forthcoming. I agree with choosing a central touring destination in tuscany and making day trips to Siena, etc.

                1. re: jen kalb

                  Hi Jen,
                  Thanks for the reply and suggestions.
                  I agree with the Piero della Francesca frescoes in Arezzo, they are wonderful and i have also been to the Scrovegni chapel before (i was actually lucky to be there after the restoration and was allowed to stay for 30 minutes, twice as long as the standard 15 minute time frame. I love Giotto and although the Assisi frescoes are contested i feel like it is a great place to see the early works of fresco paintings from Cimabue, to Giotto to Martini. It is really a place that i think is wonderful and we are going most for the my parents than for me. I am trying to compromise between the things that i have already seen and would like them to experience and to the new ones that i havent seen and might be interesting for all of us in the same level.
                  Will definetly make it to the Tempio si SanBiaggio in Montepulciano, Antonio de Sangallo is a favorite of mine and i really enjoy his work in Rome. This is very similar to the Consolazione.

                  Don't want to go much further from the food purpose of his board, although in Italy every experience builts a momentum on the next and a great dinner followed by seeing a great work of art becomes a memorable experience to be treasured forever.

                  I think my itinerary is pretty much set since i have already reserved for all the hotels. I chose to stay in some of the cities because i find the night ambience in italian cities to be somenthing really wonderful and unique, the peopel moving, dark corners and lampadari glows, etc.

                  I woudl love to hear you imput on some of the dinner options and possible lunch spots. Look forward to your reply!!!

                  1. re: javi777

                    I was mostly thinking of your parents, having seen the things you have mentioned over the years. Will have to rely on others for food reccs in this area, since its been too long since Ive been in the tuscan countryside and umbria to have reliable personal (as opposed to guidebook reccs. If you put the town names into the box up top right on this page, you will see some suggestions in each of your towns (you may have to adjust the date range to be longer once your search results appear, tuscany is not as active as Rome, Venice or Bologna.

                2. re: javi777

                  I think if Todi is on your "must" list then you have to play it by ear as to what else you can accomplish that same day if you want to be in Assisi that night. As you already know, one could spend months in just Umbria alone and not see all that's worthwhile to see -- and rushing through "hitting" hilltowns is big-time mistake. By the time you get your car in Rome and drive to Todi, you might find that the right pace is to limit yourselves to lunch and Assisi for the remainder of the day and count yourselves blessed with enough.

                  So the right plan for me would be to play it by ear that day and carry lunch recommendations for Todi, Montefalco (I enjoyed Coccorone and have no experience of L'Alchimista), and Assisi, plus any countryside spots conveniently in between Todi and Assisi. If you are carrying Plotkin, be sure to call ahead to confirm it is open. In fact, for any place, call ahead.

                  Again, a note about Montefalco should you decide to go: Everything worthwhile -- food, wine and Gozzoli -- is at the top of a steep uphill climb. Museum of Gozzoli is probably closed for the lunch hour, not re-opening until 4. Double check.

                  1. re: barberinibee

                    I will definitely deviate plans and slow down to have a nice relaxing lunch at Montefalco, at either your suggestions Coccorone or at L'Alchimista. This day will be a rather relaxing one after the large scale sounds,monuments and people of Roma.
                    I really have enjoyed Gozzoli in the past, but my limited experience is the hyper-detailed, finery -showy and flashy-golden one in the Palazzo Medici in Florence. Will research and climb the hill!
                    Thank you for that great insight and the rest recommendation!

                    1. re: javi777

                      Just to be clear, I've never eaten at L'Alchemista, so can't personally yay or nay it.

                      Here's a link to the Gozzoli fresco cycle in Montefalco, and should you get to San Gimignano, the ones there too:

                      http://www.wga.hu/tours/gozzoli/index...

                      1. re: barberinibee

                        Right i know you havent been to it but it has been discussed ont he boards before. Hopefully someone else could give us a direction.

                        Thank you for the fresco link. I wish that Montefalco was further than Assisi from Rome just to compare the ealier ones of Giotto to the later ones of Gozzoli.
                        Thanks!

                        1. re: javi777

                          Well, you can't have everything! Have a great trip.

            2. re: barberinibee

              When my wife and I and a friend had lunch at Serghei two years ago, they did have a menu in Italian. I fondly remember zucchini cored and stuffed with Bolognese sauce, . It is a tiny place, the seats are not comfortable, but the food is outstanding

              I am still trying to figure out how to core the zucchini to stuff them. Obviously, one could split them and remove the seeds, but the effect is not the same.

               
              1. re: drsometimes

                The zucchini grown around Bologna are usually much fatter than the zucchini you typically find in American or British markets. So they are easier to core. Here's a picture of the fatter, stubbier variety:

                http://www.eurosementi.it/component/p...

                But if you can find (or grow) some not-too-thin zucchini, carefully using an ordinary spoon should do it:

                http://answers.yahoo.com/question/ind...

                it is an old arab trick to coat the zucchini in salt before coring (rinse after). Or you can cheat:

                http://www.amazon.com/Paderno-World-C...

                I've never had zucchine ripiene at Serghei, but most of the time in Bologna, the zucchini are stuffed with a combination of ground pork, ground mortadella and parmigiano, not what most people would call a Bolognese sauce (they are usually served with a basic tomato sauce over them, though). This is a classic recipe:

                http://www.lavecchiascuola.com/it/sec...

            3. Day 1: it is well known on the board that i love roscioli and antico arco as well, but neither are what you want, i think - rustic, simple, romantic, classic, standard... No. nino is tuscan if i am not wrong (?) and a bit stiff. i'd choose armando from your list as the perfect first night (what weekdays are these days? Did you Check openings for your days?)
              Day 2: i wouldn't suggest it, but i understand the sentimental value.
              Day 3: ditirambo, no.
              Day 4: flavio excellent (which location? There is a new prati branch). Filetti di bacala is not open for lunch, though pizza al taglio at roscioli forno or pizzarium, depending on your location, is excellent. Skip roma sparita (discussion here on boards as to why).
              Tuscany: wine tours you mention, are they booked or are you going to drive around yourself? In that case, don't forget to call ahead a couple of days before you plan on visiting, most italian wineries are not equipped for drop bys.

              3 Replies
              1. re: vinoroma

                Thank you Vinoroma, straight to the point and assertive.
                I will do a bit more of research about Armando but sounds like a great intro venue (that day will be a Tuesday Sept 4th). Will also look into roscioli and antico arco as well.

                As far as Flavio i am thinking about the Testaccio location (Friday, Sept 7)

                Can you elaborate a bit about Renato e Luisa and Ditirambo. I enjoy the cacio e peppe ar Renato's and although the preparations tend to be a bit over the top and contrived, it is a sentimental favorite. We have been many times there and are willing to rethink it as well.

                I think Filetti might even be closed as part of Ferragosto on our visit. My experience before has been that they open in mid september.

                Would you mind recomending somenthing further based on my suggestions.
                I am also reading about Chechino's wonderful wine list, from a post by TENORTOM. Might be a place for me, including what it seems to be that wonderful Fiorano Bianco wine.

                Sora lella has always been on my radar as well. Great Isola location.

                I have already confirmed the reservation for the wine tours at Verrazano as well as Vignamaggio. Would welcome other Tuscan wine recomendations or in Rome as well.

                Look forward to hearing from you all!

                1. re: javi777

                  think about your parents - they will need to sit down for a while at midday and may burn out eating a large meal late (I know what I am talking about here). Roscioli forno or other eat and run venues etc are not what they will be wanting at lunch time. Sora Margherita in the ghetto (if it is open in August) is quick-ish and inexpensive - a plate of pasta there might fill the bill and I seem to recall their house red was better than aveage.

                  E Minchilli has reported on a summer popup on the Tiber Island - if you look at her recent posts you will find it.

                  Armando is a good pick but the roman standards are the best bet there - we had hits and misses going off on some of their alternative menu pages.

                  1. re: jen kalb

                    our favorite stop in Umbria (and it has been a few years) was in Bevagna where we stayed at Orti de Angeli and loved the restaurant (Ristorante Redibis I think) and Bevagna and surrounds in general. All of Umbria was a treat, as most of Italy usually is.

              2. In Venice, which Al Garanghelo are you considering? There are two, and I can't recommend the one at which I recently ate.

                1. For Venice:
                  "We are looking for great food leaning towards classic places, dishes and rustic atmosphere, ranging from the simple to the romantic"; if those are your criteria:
                  Trattoria alla Madonna: this is one place that has always mystified me. I ate there on my first visit in the early 80's and thought the food was at best, barely passable: black ink spaghetti with cuttlefish came out two minutes after we ordered it, lukewarm and gloppy with flavorless squids; the grilled branzino was dry and bland, the artichoke contorno was overcooked and water logged. After reading some positive reviews, we decided to give it a second try a couple years ago. Same uninspired food. I just can't figure out how a restaurant can have such a polar personality. And it is always packed.
                  Antiche Carampane: definitely one of the best seafood restaurant in Venice. Order the mixed antipasto and the seasonal Adriatic seafood. The only fish I don't recommend is the branzino, which I think is farmed.
                  Al Paradiso: we had a couple of very good dinners recently based on a very positive write-up on this site. The food is mostly traditional mix with a little creativity. Very friendly owners and comfortable warm ambience. Usually not busy as it is under the radar; or maybe because it is expensive, on par with Antiche Carampane and more than Fiaschetteria Toscana
                  Antica Locanda Montin: fine if it is on your list because of the beautiful back garden and its literary history but don't expect much of the food. I ate there in the 80's and haven't been back. From my Venetian friends, the food has not improved.
                  Ostaria Al Garanghelo: this traditional osteria changed hands recently. The friendly elderly owners retired. It was one of my favorite simple place in Venice and near our apartment. When I walked by this May, it had pizza on the menu, a very bad sign. A recent post on this board wasn't very positive.
                  Alla Zucca: has been written up much on this board. The food, though mostly good, does not fit your criteria of a classic place. The menu is very eclectic, a few Venetian/Italian inspired dishes and most others travel all over the globe. Good if one like vegetables.
                  Fiaschetteria Toscano: for me, the most consistent traditional Venetian restaurant; except for a raw fish antipasto, one won't find anything astray from traditional Venetian cooking. A large menu of antipasti, primi (classic bigoli and risotti), seafood and meat/poultry dishes. The seafood secondi are very simply prepared, either grilled or fried. The meat/poultry dishes are more elaborate. Nice desserts. Probably the best wine list in Venice. Make sure you sit on the ground floor dining room and not upstair.
                  For traditional: Vini di Gigio (wine list almost as good as FT), da Alberto, ai Promissi Sposi, Anice Stellato, L’Orto dei Mori, Trattoria da Fiore and its next door bacaro (not the expensive osteria in San Polo), Osteria Santa Marina
                  Seafood or mostly: Boccadoro, alla Frasca
                  Bacari and cicchetti: almost all bacari will have interesting wines, mostly from the Veneto and Friuli. The selection is always revolving, therefore, it is difficult to recommend anything specific. The two on your list:
                  La Cantina is excellent but it does not serve small plates but rather composed plates; plate can have buffalo mozzarella with tomato, a salad of carrot and radishes, some arugula or a seafood plate with carpaccio, baby scallop with roe, oysters, saor sardine; cured meat/cheese with a radicchio salad.
                  Al Prosecco: like La Cantina, mostly composed plates but also few small sandwiches. The wine list has some interesting Proseccos; some are still. My favorite is the “forte”, light color red with some backbone and just a touch of bubbles. The small interior is stand up only, therefore, pick a nice day and sit at one of the 8 outdoor tables. Located in one of the most picturesque campo. Lunch is serene, whereas, late afternoon and weekends bring out the playing children
                  Bacari that serve cichetti in a more traditional small plate mode: don’t miss alle Vedova, Cantinone gia Schiavi, Ai Vini Padovani, the atmospheric ones near the Rialto market such as All’Arco, do Spade, Bancogiro (great outside seating facing the Grand Canal) and on the same loggia is Naranzaria with interesting wines from the Conte Brandolini Estate.
                  Also check what days of the week you will be in Venice. Most bacari are closed Sundays and many restaurants, Mondays and some Sundays also.

                  1 Reply
                  1. re: PBSF

                    Thank you PBSF,
                    I was really hoping you would join the conversation since your suggestions are always tailored, beautifully-worded and informative.
                    I will reserve one of the days for Fiaschetteria Toscana. Possibly the first night, as an introduction to the city’s classic dishes (that will be Friday)
                    I am also thinking about Al Paraiso and Antiche Carampane.
                    As for Osteria alla Madonna and Antica Locanda Montin, there were places that I went while I was in Venice last time. I remember a delicious fritto antipasto there, as well as the black ink spaghetti which I thought was good, even if the pasta and the sauce seemed to be one on top of the other without much mixing and delicacy. My memories of it and of the Locanda Montin are probably weighed up by the then company of good friends in the back garden.

                    I would love to hear what you have to say about your classic recommendations such as Vini di Gigio, da Alberto, Ai Promisi Sposi, Anise Stellato, L'Orte dei Mori, Tratorie da Fiore and Osteria Santa Marina. Which ones would you definitely recommend based on my criteria and as a counterpart to Fiaschetteria Toscana?

                    As for the Bacari and wine, i am beyond excited, and will choose a combination of places by the market and the others you mentioned. Any particular wine varietals, producers or vintage recommendations, or roads that I should follow?

                    We will be in Venice Friday, Saturday and Sunday and I will plan accordingly for opening times.
                    Look forward to your further suggestions!

                  2. Thank you all for your great suggestions.

                    I have reworked the itinerary to include a few lunch stops (other ones will be quicker affairs), the possibility for picnics, and dinner changes based on your priced recommendations.

                    I look forward to hearing what you think.

                    ROME

                    Day1.

                    Lunch: Pizza al taglio at Forno Campo de Fiori

                    Dinner: Armando al Pantheon (introduction to classic roman fare)

                    Day2. (We will start in the Forum in the morning)

                    Lunch: L’Asino d’Oro or Osteria dei Fori Imperiali

                    Dinner:???

                    Day3.

                    Lunch:Pizzarium

                    Dinner:???

                    Day4.

                    Lunch:???

                    Dinner: Flavio Velavodedetto

                    Day5.

                    Todi and Montefalco: Lunch at Coccorone or L’Alchemista

                    Option to have a picnic on our way to Montefalco with some local produce.

                    Dinner: Trattoria Pallota, Assisi. (This is our hotel also but it is recommended in Plotkin’s Italy for the Gourmet Traveler)

                    Day6.

                    Lunch in Montalcino ???

                    Dinner in Siena ???

                    CHIANTI

                    Day 7

                    Lunch at Castello del Verrazano (wine tour)

                    Dinner: Ristoro del Lamole

                    Day 8

                    Lunch at Vignamaggio (wine tour)

                    Dinner: Officina della Bistecca, Ponzano

                    FLORENCE

                    Day 9

                    Lunch at Imola ???

                    Dinner:???

                    Day 10

                    Lunch:???

                    Dinner: Trattoria Sostanza.

                    Day11.

                    Lunch in Imola ???

                    Dinner in Bologna: Serghei, Da Gianni, Giampi e Ciccio

                    (Great options have to choose one of these, gearing towards Da Gianni)

                    VENICE

                    Day 12 (Saturday)

                    Lunch: Alle Vedova, Cantinone di Schiavi

                    Dinner: Fiaschetteria Toscana

                    Day 13 (Sunday)

                    Lunch: Do Spade

                    Dinner: Vini di Gigio

                    Day14: (Monday)

                    Lunch: All’Arco

                    Dinner: Ai Promisi Sposi , Trattoria da Fiore

                    20 Replies
                    1. re: javi777

                      F

                      1. re: PBSF

                        PBSF, i get the first sentences of your reply in my imbox but here there is only the first letter.
                        Could you please post it again.
                        Thanks!

                        1. re: javi777

                          Sorry, my compute went south. Will re-write and post for Venice very soon.

                          1. re: javi777

                            For Venice:

                            In terms of food, Fiaschetteria Toscana and Vini di Gigio are very similar in that they both serve traditional Venetian cooking. Both with large menu of seafood and meat/poultry to go with their excellent wine list. FT’s strength is in their antipasti, including selection of raw items, all the classics such as saor, bacala, baked scallops, crab salad, shrimp on polenta, prosciutto, carpaccio, on and on. So are the primi, the place to try risotto, especially if the ‘go’ fish is available. The secondi are simpler than those at Vini. Vini has similar but smaller selection of antipasti (more than enough choices) and a plus that they offer a couple of assortment plates. As for ambiece, FT is a little more toward 'fine dining' though nothing formal, whereas, Vini di Gigio is warmer and cozier. Vini is also a less expensive especially the wines. This past May at Vini, we had a couple of very good bottles: a 2008 Silvaner Va Isaraco for 27e and a 2000 Cabernet-Merlot blend from Baron Widmann at 35e. My thought is that these two restaurants might be too similar though nothing wrong eating at both.

                            For variety and if your party does not mind all seafood, might consider Antiche Carampane or even Alle Testieres (tables a bit tight and maybe too lively for some). Both have some of the best seafood in Venice and great place for any unusual items from the lagoon. In any good restaurant, always inquire what seafood that is not on the menu. For more creative (relative since not many places use modern techniques; more likely different combinations and wider range of ingredients), Trattoria Santa Marina or Bancogiro. Another plus is that except for alle Testiere, all have outside seating, Antiche on a quiet calle, Santa Marina on a quaint campo, Bancogiro on a wide loggia facing the Grand Canal. Because the loggia has a string of restaurants with tables lined up one after another, I actually prefer their second floor alcove. Others don’t seem to mind All are on the expensive side but within your budget with Bancogiro a little cheaper.

                            Ai Promessi Sposi is a very simple osteria. The menu is small, just three or four choices for each category. Straight forward such as fish tartare, steamed mussels, beef carpaccio; bigoli con salsa, even a spaghetti all’amatriciana and usually one fresh pasta; secondi are the usual fegato, grilled fish, cuttlefish with polenta. It is lively and always packed with a friendly staff.

                            Trattoria da Fiore is an example of a good Venetian trattoria; varied menu, good cooking, ample portions and not too expensive. Everyone seems to be having a good time. And their next door bacaro is draws a packed young crowd on weekend but stand up only.

                            For lunch: if one wants to eat at bacari, a good plan to eat at those near where you’ll be sightseeing at. It is not worth the time and energy to trek across the city. There are good bacari through out Venice but most are closed Sundays. As for those around the Rialto market, all are closed Sundays. And so is the market, including the Pescheria. Also Mondays, therefore, that leaves you Saturday morning for a visit. Aside from lunch, the best time to visit bacari is late afternoon for a snack and the Venetian spritz ritual. Many have outside sittings and September is perfect weather for that.

                            Just keep in mind that Sunday and Mondays are the two most popular days for closings; more so for bacari than restaurants on your list. If you would like a small lists of bacari, just post a simple itinerary of your sightseeing and I’ll try to make a few recommendations.

                            1. re: PBSF

                              Thanks for retyping all those wonderful comments. I really cannot thank enough your thoughtfulness and diligence to try to make our visit a memorable experience.

                              Ahh what to do in regards to Saturday dinner? I already reserved and had my heart set on going to Fiaschetteria Toscana based on your comments, but the similarities with Vini di Gigio could make it a bit redundant (although I am sure that we can try several and different dishes those two nights at both places.
                              It also seems like Antique Carampane is the place to go for seafood but it is only open 1 day during our stay, the same day as Fiaschetteria is opened. My initial thought is to cancel the reservation for Fiaschetteria, substitute it for Carampane and then go on Sunday to Vini di Gigio.
                              Would we be missing a wonderful experience by not going to Fiaschetteria that we could not achieve in the other places? Your description makes it look really interesting, delicious and alike my tastes, aside from being recommended in several post and by Plotkin in his book.
                              Ahh decisions!!!

                              As far as Ai Promessi Sposi and da Fiore, I will choose Ai Promissi (although i might do a bit of research more since both look fantastic).

                              Thank you and it is really kind of you for trying to suggest a bacari itinerary based on our sightseeing schedule. I will create a short list of places and try to pair ahead with the places that you have suggested before.
                              Thanks again !!!

                              1. re: javi777

                                If you do decide on Antiche Carampane, FT and Vini di Gigio are both open on Sundays. The food at FT is good but I don't think of any restaurant in Venice that is a "must" or 'can't miss'. There is always a chance for misses. I would just choose base what you want to eat and how it fits into your schedule. As with the bacari, food is important but what really makes a favorite for us is the ambience and the staff.

                              2. re: PBSF

                                Hi PBSF
                                I wonder if you could help me at the last minute.
                                My father has purchased tickets (and he is very willing about this for he loves classical music) for a concert in the Atteneo S Basso near Saint Marks at 8:30 pm on our last day in Venice.
                                I am thinking of reserving somewhere for lunch so as not to be rushing to and early or late dinner. Could you recommend a place for us...anywhere.
                                We are already having dinner at Antiche Carampane, Vini di Gigio and Fiascheteria Toscana.

                                This will be on a Monday....was thiking of Ai Promisi Sposi but they are closed for lunch that day?
                                Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.

                                1. re: javi777

                                  I assume you are looking for a simple place where your family can sit down for a leisurely lunch as oppose to eating ciccheti in a bacari.
                                  Alle Vedova if you haven't been there the previous days. Also near Sposi is La Cantina, a bacaro but they serve compose plates of very good food. The inside has sit down and there are a few outside tables that is a great for people watching.
                                  Between the Rialto and Campo Santo Stefano is Enoteca Volto; the front bar serves good cicchetti and excellent wines by the glass and their sit down dining area has good simple traditional food.
                                  Off the same campo on calle de Botteghe is the Osteria alle Botteghe.
                                  If you are in Dorsoduro, ai 4 Feri has good antipasti and very simple seafood. also there are two outposts of a small chain, Pane, Vino et San Danieli (one on calle San Barnaba and the other near the Zattere). We like it when we want something quick and good at non typical lunch/dinner service hours.
                                  With all the above, I would choose base on where you are sightseeing on that Monday; it is not wroth trekking across the city.

                                  1. re: PBSF

                                    I loved Alle Vedova. PBSF is definitely the expert on Venice, and I haven't been to the others, so can't comment more.

                                    But, I walked into Vedova 2 times before I was actually able to sit down and eat lunch. I recommend making a reservation if you choose to go there.

                                    1. re: PBSF

                                      Thank you so much...your experience is worth more than i can say!!!
                                      I will post and take pictures on our return.
                                      Sounds like Alle Vedova is a great option...

                            2. re: javi777

                              A couple of suggestions for Rome (based on our past experience). Dinner at Roscioli is a must for us. We also loved our long leisurely lunch at Piperno last year and we will return for dinner in September. Just a couple of weeks ago we had a lovely lunch at Cul du Sac - a fantastic huge salad, which is what we needed after a couple of days of heavy eating on the Amalfi Coast.
                              Jealous of your eating at Schiavi in Venice - one of our favorite spots for cicchetti (along with All'Arco). Too bad you don't have time for Antiche Carampane - one of our favs for dinner in Venice.

                              1. re: ekc

                                I think i am going to have to add Roscioli as a dinner option for one of the nights. Their wine list, the simple classic food and all your recomendations of it have made me had a change of mind.
                                I actually was a constant regular on Thursdays for their lunch gnochi while studying a few blocks away. Will go back for their dinner at 7:30.

                                EKC thanks for sedimenting the suggestion of Schiavi. Might also use Cul de Sac as a wine stop, pate and to talk to Pasquino.

                                Thanks!

                                1. re: javi777

                                  J - thanks for the reminder about the pate at Cul de Sac. I had it with the salad for lunch and it was great. It will go back on the list for September!

                                  1. re: javi777

                                    Are you sure we are talking same roscioli? Simple classic food? In any case, do not go at 7:30. Too early. Make it 9.

                                    1. re: vinoroma

                                      In their website they have 2 hour slots for reservations 7:00-9:00, 7:30-9:30 and 10:30.

                                      1. re: javi777

                                        If you call, you can book for 9. 7:30 too early, you'll be sitting among tourists.

                                        1. re: vinoroma

                                          Hi Vinoroma.....Any thoughts on navigating the overwhelming Roscioli wine list?

                                          If we will be having the standards caccio peppe, carbonara, etc, what would you recommend?

                                          After browsing the list, i am leaning towards possibly a white, sparkling wine, or a frizzante red....Franciacorta, Trebbiano, Lambrusco....although some reds are starting to appeal....possibly a Barbera...

                                          Anyways this list of close to 200 pages is exhausting.....i think i will only stick to the italian wines.....

                                          Any thoughts?????

                                          Thank you!

                                          1. re: javi777

                                            I like your choices already. An informed wine drinker.
                                            Yes, stick with Italian (not that the rest is not good, lots of gems there, but you are in Italy....). If you are having the cacio e pepe (note spelling) and carbonara, my first choice would be a nice central Italian white (Trebbiano, especially Valentini). But a light red, esp a traditional Barbera (i.e. not too oaky, high in acidity) would be good, too. Of course, Franciacorta has a special place in my heart and I would drink it with anything (well almost). depending on what you are having before the pasta, you could start with a Franciacorta (they have a rather good one by the glass, too) and then go on to Valentini?
                                            And you can always ask the somms, too - but then you have to talk to them and show what you are thinking about, so they don't go the "oh an American wine lover, let's give him the things he knows about, like a Barolo or Brunello" road.

                                            1. re: vinoroma

                                              Perfect....that is very informative...I think follow your advice.
                                              We are going to Roscioli based on your recommendation.....Thank you so much!

                                              If you can think of anything else i would really appreciatte it.

                                              1. re: javi777

                                                Do have the burrata @ Roscioli; it is justly famous. I had mixed feelings about the carbonara, though. The guanciale was great, and I loved the creaminess of the sauce (which I'm assuming is due to mostly egg yolks instead of whole eggs), but I found the pasta too al dente. I don't want or like overcooked pasta, but this was way beyond "al dente" and downright hard.

                              2. Dear all
                                Thank you for your wonderful and confident recommendations.
                                Could i get your recommendations for Florence and Siena????
                                Thanks in advance

                                Also i would love to hear about your top notch wines to try in the cities that i will be travelling.

                                1. Leaving in 2 weeks.
                                  Any further suggestions for Florence, Siena, and Chianti around Greve?
                                  These are the places in which i am lacking solid recomendations.

                                  4 Replies
                                  1. re: javi777

                                    In Florence: Definitely try the chicken in butter at Sostanza (many posts on this, and it is heavenly). We always return to a few favorite, classic trattorie: Casalinga in the Oltrarno area, Da Sergio and Mario, both near San Lorenzo. These two are lunch only, and Mario is cash only. If crowds are an issue, and you're choosing between the two, da Sergio would be a better choice, though Mario is a real bargain. Just get there early before the lines are out the door. We also enjoyed Coquinarius, near Il Duomo, which is open all day and has great salads, crostone, etc. It's nice in the evening if you've had a large lunch. These are all solid classics and none of them will break the bank.

                                    1. re: lisaonthecape

                                      Forgot to mention Le Volpi e L'Uva, near the Ponte Vecchio but tucked away from the crowds. Another good choice for lunch or a light meal. It's an enoteca and has lots of crostone, salumi, cheeses, etc. and of course wine.

                                      I see that you mentioned Cipolla Rossa in your OP. We had a fine meal there in April as well--lunch for us, as we prefer the leisurely lunch as our main meal (while everything is closed) and then something light for the evening.

                                      1. re: lisaonthecape

                                        Thank you!
                                        I have been debating among so many in Florence other than Sostanza, Casalinga, Da Sergio, Mario and Cipolla Rossa have definetly been on the radar.

                                        Any thoughts on Due G or Vini e Vechi Sapori?

                                        1. re: javi777

                                          Sadly, I haven't tried either yet. So many choices and so little time! Also, be sure to try the wonderful gelato at Carapina. I also love the nut flavors at Carabe (though not everyone likes this place), and I think the riso flavor at Vivoli is great, though I would agree that, generally, Vivoli is probably past its prime.