Salt-preserved lemons and food safety?

[bythebay]

I tried to preserve some lemons a few weeks back, cutting them into fourths, putting salt in them, putting salt at the bottom and top of the jar I placed the lemons in and covering with lemon juice. I left it out for a day or two and then in the fridge, where it's been since.

I have a concern about the fact that the directions called for the lemons to be fully submerged in juice the whole time. I think part of the lemon at the top of the jar might not be fully submerged. Does this pose a health risk?

I've always been terrified of trying canning because of fear of botulism. And I don't know if this poses the same type of risk if not done properly? I could just scrap the whole thing and start again if there's any chance of that. Especially since I just had a case of shellfish poisoning this week I'm not too keen on the idea of taking a chance with other food.

[sparkareno]

I put the box of beautiful Meyer lemons in the freezer for a day and now half of them have brown/black blotches all over them. Huh??? I am sure that I can still use them but not to give as gifts.

[chefj]

Like this http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/gardening/...

[sparkareno]

Yes but just the spots--not sunk in like that photo.

[RavaIdli]

A related question--how long can you safely keep a jar of preserved lemons? Mine is in the refrigerator, but it has certainly been there over a year now. Still okay to use?

[Sam Salmon]

Never kept any for a a year because the way I do them they turn quite mushy after 6 months or so-nothing wrong with them but not nibble worthy but OK for adding to stir fries & the like.

[Shrinkrap]

I've used mine after a year in the fridge, and they are often still "toothsome", ......but sometimes not....

[Peg]

I've used them 2 - 3 years after making them and they've been fine. I do top up with juice and salt if needed..

[applgrl]

Good to be cautious, but your lemons will be safe.

Botulism can only grow in specific conditions:
#1--the actual botulism bacterium, a soil bacterium, must be present
#2--pH of the food has to be ABOVE 4.6
#3--jar must be canned in a water bath canner and properly sealed so that it is anaerobic: all the oxygen has been cooked out of the jar.
#4--you must eat the contaminated food straight out of the jar once opened. Boiling denatures the toxin, rendering it harmless. Weird, huh?

In your case, lemons are much too acidic (below 3.0) for the botulism spore to grow. Also, you did not boil them in a canner, creating anaerobic conditions. Most fruits can be safely canned in a water bath canner. because they fall below the 4.6 mark. Vegetables and meat are higher pH and have to be done in a pressure canner. Always, always, use a tested recipe from a reputable source. Grandmothers used to water bath can veggies, but mostly didn't get poisoned because they boiled them before eating. So don't use old recipes.

Fear the canner no more! Go to this website and you will soon be reassured and making your own terrific foodstuffs.....
http://nchfp.uga.edu/

[bythebay]

Thank you. So botulism is not going to happen given the conditions. And there's no other risks to worry about either, right?

I will check out the canning link thank you. I think I'm paranoid about all this since I have some immune issues and can't fight off health problems well.

[applgrl]

Only risk might be mold on the top, but at least you can tell if there is mold---you see it! With the recipe high in salt, even mold will take some time to grow.

It is such a tiny, tiny risk to get botulism, only a couple cases in all North America every year, but it IS a risk, so I think you're wise to be careful. Even a small bit of "regular" food poisoning is unpleasant, so best to use safe practices all the time and avoid it.

Two other simple insurance policies:
Eat buttermilk and yogurt a couple times a week as well to help replenish your supply of healthy gut bacteria--another easy, cheap way to battle the nasties.

Use an instant-read thermometer for all hot dishes that you prepare. Meats should be at least 140 degrees, as well as things like casseroles, stews, soups, etc.

[bythebay]

Thank you for the tips! I agree better to be safe.

[shelleyelizabeth]

Hey, found this thread because I have just tried for the first time to do preserved lemons. The recipe was simple--just sale and meyer lemons and put them in a jar, nothing fancy, rubber seal. Didn't say anything about sterilizing--should have thought of the but didn't. So, it's been a couple weeks and I just found a little mold on the top. I opened the jar and removed it, but will they be ok? Or should I toss them, which I would hate to do.

[Sam Salmon]

No problem salt cures all.

FWIW Meyer Lemons didn't work all that well for me.

[sparkareno]

I just bought a big thing of Meyer lemons at Costco & was going to make these & now I see your post that Meyer's didn't work that well. Why not? Here I thought I was buying a premium product. Is the flavor not good?
Also..I am confused....do these only have to be refrigerated after opening? I want to make them in one giant jar and then transfer to smaller jars to give for Xmas. Would it be smarter/safer to just make them in the small jars to begin with?
And why would you need to add lemon juice when you remove a lemon---seems to me that with fewer lemons in the jar....the level of juice in there would rise. No?

[scubadoo97]

I use regular lemons but a lot of people use Meyer lemons. I usually don't need to ad juice as a use them. Just need to push them down to be covered

[Sam Salmon]

The taste wasn't as good-that's all I can say-sweetness isn't necessarily what you want when making a savoury condiment.

Who knows maybe it'll work for you.

[Shrinkrap]

I always use Meyers, because I have a tree. If I was buying them, I don't know that they add anything in particular to preserved lemons. This thread says they are closest to what yogurt in Morocco.

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/870272

[gingershelley]

applegrl, thanks for putting up the technical details related to canning and botulism I was (sorry!) too lazy to look up in my files this weekend from canning classes.

+1 on all your information!

[Sam Salmon]

FWIW-I have made salted Lemons for ages just slicing them (almost) into eighths and adding them to a jar full of plain water and 2 cups of salt-leave for 2 months remove pulp and then rinse well and keep the rinds in the fridge.

Hasn't killed me yet but had added some real variety to many many dishes.

[Rella]

Leave outside or inside the refrigerator for two months?

How many lemons and how big a jar for 2 cups of salt? Thanks.

[Sam Salmon]

A dozen lemons and quite a large jar on the kitchen counter.

[applgrl]

yeah, kudos to the univ of georgia for having all the canning info free of charge; recipes as well as the science behind it. now i have to check their recipe for preserving lemons :)

[rasputina]

Solution, use the pickl-it. I tried making preserved lemons using a canning jar and keeping them submerged was a PITA. I ended up with mold. I've since switched to using the pickl-it system for all my lactic acid fermentation and it works great. I have no financial stake in their company, I just enjoy their product.

www.pickl-it.com

[Rella]

Thanks for your link. I am wondering if the hold-it-in-place thingie is plastic; i.e., plastic is against the brine.

[rasputina]

No it's glass.

here is the link to their parts page where they describe the materials used in the pickle-it

http://www.pickl-it.com/faq/76/pickl-...

[Rella]

Dear Rasputina,
DH and I just spent a long time on the phone listening to this wonderful lady talk about pickling. We bought a vegetable trio bundle, and a condiment trio bundle.

She says to use Nature's Cargo salt, but when I go to Amazon, that is a bath salt http://www.amazon.com/Bath-Celtic-Nat...

She said a Celtic salt will mold because it is wet, however, this bath salt says Celtic.

She also said I can use a light pink Himalyan salt.
What do you use?

[rasputina]

I bought this pink himalayan salt from Amazon and I've been using it for my brines. It works great. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001...

My husband just started eating the red sauerkraut I started back in March and loves it. I'm going to have to start a larger batch soon so we don't run out.

[Rella]

Thanks. She said to use the light pink. What I have now is Old Thompson fine grind and it is a light pink. I'm not sure I've ever seen it any darker. But I'm glad to know that this is what you buy and it works. I think I'll start with a 2 lb. order. Actually she doesn't call for adding a lot of salt, I don't think. What poundage do you order.

Do you mean 'red' cabbage? I had no interest really in making sauerkraut although I do like it, but the thoughts of making a kraut out of red cabbage sounds fantastic.

[rasputina]

yes I made the 'kraut with red ( purple) cabbage. I only bought 1 lb of the salt initially to try it, and yes you aren't using a lot of salt. For example, she recommends 3 tablespoons of salt for every 5 lbs of sliced cabbage. This was my first batch using the pickle-it and I used the 1 liter jar, I'll use one of my larger ones for the next batch though. I used the graph on her website and weighed the salt in grams based on the weight of the cabbage that would fit in the jar. IIRC it was maybe 2 teaspoons salt for the 1 liter jar.

Also remember that you don't want to use chlorinated tap water in lactic acid ferments.

[Rella]

Thanks again. I have a bit of salt on hand, so I'll wait for an order.

Tap water at my house is a no-no. First we reverse-osmosis it, then we distill the RO water. Thanks.

[sunshine842]

Why?

Genuine question there....RO is far more pure than standard filters....I honestly don't know what's left to remove by distillation.

[Rella]

Because RO doesn't take out 100% minerals and impurities, and I want to take out 100% impurities. Hope this answers your question.

[Shrinkrap]

Bookmarked.

[gingershelley]

Pickl-it! What an awesome product! Love it when someone makes a great product in response to market need... hope those guys make a Bazillion$ from that product!

I will buy some for pickles and sourkraut, etc., but see no need for preserved lemons. the salt ratio and acid is SO HIGH that they won't go bad. Trust me. I don't refridgerate mine until I pop the top of a jar... sometimes (hopefully!) at least 6 months after preparing. I have a very cool basement 'cellar' type room I keep my wine, winter produce and canned items in (and my nascent duck prosciutto!), and have never had a problem with preserved lemons, except for lid rust from all the acid, or if - like Rella - sometimes there is a bit of evaporation and the top of the jar's liquid receeds a smidge - then the top of the lemons turns brownish from oxidation at the top of the jar. Just discard. Rest of the jar is a dream....

[rasputina]

My canning jar attempt at preserved lemons grew mold, I'd rather use a product designed for lactic acid fermentation and have consistent results without wasting a batch.

[gingershelley]

Rasputina, I can see why you like those pickl-it! products. I am going to get some as well, and join you for some of my condiments, etc:)

[Rella]

I'm waiting to see your posts as well. Starting a new food project is always exciting.

[bythebay]

Thanks everyone. Maybe to be safe I won't take the chance. It's probably just fine but who knows. I'd rather be safe than sorry especially after my recent bout of bad food poisoning. I'm in no hurry so I can try another batch soon and make sure it's fully submerged this time.

[Rella]

There are several instructions for making these lemons, and differences in preparation. I found it so confusing.

One thing that was so different and I've seen only one mention is to wash the lemons and let them sit in water for 3 days (on the counter,) changing water each day. It didn't say the reason, but I assume that it softened up the rind before pushing them into the jars. The recipe said to push them down into the jar with one's hands or tools, and that gives more juice.

The first time I did it, I didn't have enough juice and had to juice a number of more lemons, but this method saved me cutting up and wasting more lemons just to get the juice because the pushing down created more juice than just placing them in.

I mean: push them hard.

[herby]

Rella, just freeze your lemons overnight and then take out. Once theydefrost, they become very soft and easy to jam into a jar.

[Rella]

Wow! Thank you! Yes, that's a apt word, "Jam them in."

I'm going to post a couple of pictures later today of my preserved lemons for critique, and see what gingershelley thinks about them and others can see.

[gingershelley]

Plus 1 +1! herby! This is how I teach all my Moroccan cooking students to do it - freeze overnight and proceed from there...

Soaking room temp lemons in tap water on the counter sounds awful - and very bacteria attracting!

[Rella]

"Soaking room temp lemons in tap water on the counter sounds awful - and very bacteria attracting!"

Tap water sounds awful to me, too.

I used up a good deal of precious distilled water. First I have to reverse osmosis our water, then it goes to the water distiller. The water was transferred to a container to keep all of them under water, water changed each day for 3 days. Lots of water used.

[scubadoo97]

Good technique

[Rella]

Just want to confirm, are you replying "good technique" referring to the soaking and/or freezing; i.e., on or the other or both. Thanks.

[scubadoo97]

The freezing

[gingershelley]

bythebay, I would certainly relax a bit about the preserved lemons; think about it - you can leave an unsalted lemon on the counter for days, and in the fridge for a couple weeks without being poisoned - so why would adding salt poison you suddenly?

I have taught Moroccan cooking for 8 years, and have made preserved lemons for many more. I usually leave my newly packed jars on the counter for several weeks, turning them every couple days to re-distribute the salt. I store them in a cool basement, and only put in the fridge once opened and I start to use the contents of the jar. This is because I am then changing the ratio of salt each time I take out a lemon, and add back fresh juice (and a couple teaspoons of kosher salt as well) to keep the remaining lemons covered.

Yes, keep your lemons fully covered in salted fresh lemon juice, but no - you should not have trouble with botulism. The salt ratio is SO high in this product that bacteria would have a very hard time getting started - even if you did not refrigerate until you were using the jar.

[bythebay]

I didn't think it was the salt adding the problem but the fact that they'd been cut open for 3 weeks. Isn't that different than leaving a lemon uncut in the fridge for 3 weeks?

What is the reason for needing to keep them fully submerged? Is it a health/safety reason? Mine definitely are not 100% submerged. Next time I'll weigh it down with something or use a jar with shoulders as suggested but for this time it's been about 3 weeks with the top one not totally submerged. So, still safe?

[scubadoo97]

You have two very inhospitable environments. Salty and acidic.

[gingershelley]

Scoobadoo - tho you mean inhospitable to bacteria, correct? Not to ok lemons?

[scubadoo97]

Correct

[sr44]

This is a really corrosive environment. Sometimes the jar lids are negatively affected. I've been putting a layer of plastic wrap over the jar before screwing on the lid.

[Rella]

Out of curiousity, do these lemons get added to a dish that is going to be cooked/subjected to high temperatures in a tagine?

[scubadoo97]

The problem with heat is it doesn't get rid of toxins produced by certain bacteria and will not kill botulism spores but the high acid and salt will really keep most things from growing in there including botulism

[Rella]

I was of the opinion that killing botulism took 25 minutes of boiling.
However, I don't take that chance, myself.

But my several jars in the refrigerator for maybe a year, the top 1/2-inch has no liquid. I had great hopes to use these, but they still are there taking up space. What-to-do, what-to-do.

[Rella]

I have added pictures that show two batches of preserved lemons, one January 2011, the other is March 2012. I did the turning thing as called for for some time, then I put them in a downstairs refrigerator and they have never been used or opened since, probably not even turned upside down in months.

The pic with the two jars is January 2011; the picture with the 3 jars is March 2012. Several of the jars have no liquid on the top.

Rasputina, DH is looking at the pickle-it jars and is ready to order if there is no catch; i.e., exhorbitant shipping charges. Thanks so much.

[gingershelley]

Rella, having the volume of liquid go down in your UNOPENED fresh jars is not the same as not having them filled to start, as your pickling ratio is correct within the jar, also - being refrigerated, your productis beyond reproach with all that acid and salt.

Only thing that happens if there is 'air surface' at this point for you, is your top layer of lemons can darken. Simple oxidation, nothing dangerous.

Eat your lemons and tell me how! I love a preserved lemon laid down for 6 months, like your January's - those are SO much better than a few weeks:)...

[mariacarmen]

"Eat your lemons and tell me how! I love a preserved lemon laid down for 6 months, like your January's - those are SO much better than a few weeks" - ok, this is good to know, that i should really leave them in much longer!

[bythebay]

I can't exactly remember the recipe I was going to use them for off-hand but it's meant to go on fish.

[gingershelley]

Sometimes, rella - in fact mostly, are cooked in a dish. But, I also use preserved lemons raw in vinaigrette, on fish, in a kale salad; most recently in an asparagus risotto (WFD thread)....

I have never worried, after seeing how Moroccan women handle them in their kitchens - in desert heat, and often less than fab cleanliness conditions....

[gingershelley]

bytbay - I would probably think your top lemon is not going to 'cure' quite properly, since it is not fully submerged (and I would take pains to submerge next time so you don't lose product), but in my world, I would probably use the bottom half of that lemon, and certainly never worry about the rest of the jar.

Much Salt. Much Acid = tough for issues to develop. People have been salting foods for 1,000+ years to keep them. 'Nuf said....

[ette]

Can you recommend any reputable online resources for making preserved lemons? I'd really like to try it! Thanks!

[gingershelley]

Well, ette, I humbly submit some may not find me to be 'reputable', but I think lot's of CH'ers would.... here is a link to a thread on Moroccan cooking that includes my recipe for preserved lemons.

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/814672

I love the trick of freezing the lemons to jump-start the process. A charm, for sure. Learned this from Paula Wolfert at a seminar in Spain about Moorish cooking (Muslim Spanish/ North African food).

I trust this method, and have had many positive comments from student's and friends for over ten years on it. Let me know if you have any questions.

[Rella]

Thank you for the link. I hope to be trying one of your favorite recipes someday - it's on my list - Moroccan Chicken Tagine with preserved lemon and prunes. I have 3 books of Paula Wolfert and I'm just going to have to jump in sometime.

[ette]

Thanks very much! Reputable indeed :)

[gingershelley]

Very kind of you to say so, Ette. I hope so! My students seem to think so, as well as any number of people who have eaten my food - tho always more to learn - and share - just as I do from all you fellow CH'ers!

[weezieduzzit]

It helps to use a canning jar with "shoulders." Those edges help hold the lemons down. If you notice them not covered as you use them and pull the lemons out, just add more lemon juice.

[sunshine842]

Yes, the lemons have to be submerged for the preservation to work properly. Weigh them down with a small saucer or dish or similar.

for canning, get your hands on a current copy of the Ball Blue Book Guide to Preserving -- Amazon has it here: http://www.amazon.com/Ball-Blue-Book-Guide-Preserving/dp/0972753702 or it's usually available at Target or Wal-Mart.

It's also here: www.freshpreserving.com

This is pretty much the Bible of home canning and preserving. Follow the directions carefully, and you should be fine.

[bythebay]

So, maybe I should start over? Most of them are fully submerged but not the top one. Would it be fine to eat the others, or does this mean I need to start again with a new batch? Thank you.