understanding

[walnut]

what is it when you say u make lasg. and cover it and bake it in the oven is it baked or steamed. I am trying to understand moist heat and dry heat cooking.And not understanding when u have a combination of the two,what it is considered. Also,baking in a bag ...say chicken,is this considered baked or steamed? I also made chicken peices in the oven with some water or even sauce,I dont know what this is considered either.....moist or dry heat or is a combination of the two? And what about a potato baked in foil ? thank you for your advice again.

[Novelli]

In Google, I typed in: "What's the differences between roasting, baking, grilling, searing, boiling, and braising?"

I got a ton of replies, all with consistent information.

Please view the following sites. It may help put things in perspective:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/463506-what-is-the-difference-between-baking-roasting-searing-boiling-braising/

http://www.foodsitegenesis.com/fsg_fr...

[walnut]

would it be right to think if meat could be braised by the moisture( steam ) in a cooking bag. I am only talking about the steam thats trapped in bag. I didnt add any water to my cooking bag ....just the juice from the meat and fat is in bag. so could that statement be true ....meat braises by the moisture in bag?

[pinehurst]

Walnut, you seem to be really into correct terms.

Have you ever considered taking a cooking class at a voc. high school or a community college, so that you could have an instructor and peers from whom to learn in person?

[paulj]

The results can be similar.

Consider an extreme case of a bag. Most would say that pot roast is a classic case of braising. But in the Good Eats episode, Alton does not have a dutch oven or other pot, instead just wraps the meat in foil, along with a some seasonings, and 'bakes' that. In the end, the meat was basically immersed in its own juices. I know that recipe is online at Food Network, and there probably is a video of it.

[Novelli]

Not exactly, as the bag contains the vapor of the ingredients contained within, not a standing liquid that was added.

What you are referring to is what's almost known as En Papillote
(reviewed and discussed in the link I had provided - http://www.foodsitegenesis.com/fsg_fr...

)

steam = vapor
braising = cooking in actual liquid, that is not boiling.

"En Papillote To encase and seal the meat in a parchment (or other type) then cooking it in a hot oven. The meat rests on a bed of herbs, vegetables, sauce, or a combination of these. As the meat and additions are heated in the oven, the meats juices, etc. turns into steam which cooks all and puffs up the Papillote."

As for your question, the bag would be the 'other type', as addressed above.

[walnut]

on a web site it said.....if using a cooking bag ...steams the meat bec. traps moisture and meat braises in the moisture. So,is this a correct statement? Thanks

[Novelli]

In my opinion, I don't believe that is a correct statement. As I had previously stated, my beliefs are:

steam = vapor

braising = cooking in actual liquid, that is not boiling.

Now, I'm no pro, but I know my way around the kitchen and know what works best for me and the ingredients I cook.

I know some may not agree with me, but in my opinion, the vernacular has very little importance. The execution and the integrity of the end product is what has the highest importance.

[paulj]

The problem with
braising = cooking in actual liquid, that is not boiling

definition, is that no one does it.

I can put chunk of pork in a dutch oven with a bit of liquid and seasonings, and put that in a low-medium oven (e.g. 325). A hour or so later when I take the lid off to check it (and may be turn the meat), the is more liquid (rendered from the meat), and it is bubbling. The bubbling quickly subsides, but it still means that, with the lid on, the contents are a boiling. I have to either lower the heat more, or cook it without the lid (a la H McGee) so that evaporation cools the liquid.

That's part of why I prefer the 'partially immersed' definition. I get a Maillard reaction at the surface, that is missing with total immersion. I cook tripe and tongue totally immersed over low heat, but I call that simmering, not braising.

So to my way of thinking, cooking in a plastic bag, especially if it is one designed for the purpose, is close to braising. 'En papillote' (in paper) in a sense is similar (cooking by steam and its own juices), but usually refers to more delicate items like fish, and maybe a chicken breast, but not a whole chicken or turkey.

Yet another twist on steaming - pit bbq. i.e. dig a pit, line it with stones, heat with a fire, line with leaves, dump in a pig, cover with more wet vegetation, and dirt, and leave for a day. Come back and dig out the pig that has been steamed till tender.

[cowboyardee]

You seem to be interested in the terminology of cooking things in the oven. It's admittedly confusing and inconsistent. You might find the history of the terminology enlightening. I'm not an expert in cooking history, but I'll explain to the best of my understanding. Here goes:

Before ovens were commonplace, 'baking,' 'roasting,' and 'braising' referred to more distinctly different processes. 'Baking' referred specifically to cooking things in an enclosed oven. Back then, breads were often cooked in community ovens, though other items were too occasionally. 'Roasting' referred not to things cooked in an oven but to items cooked by an exposed fire or coals, further away from the heat source than 'grilling.' Think of spit-roasted meats. It was a direct but slow form of cooking that used mainly radiated heat. 'Braising' meant to cook in an enclosed vessel, usually with liquid added to keep the contents from drying out. Rather than putting this vessel inside an oven, it was often cooked over a fire or directly on top of coals, with coals sometimes piled on top of the vessel, or the vessel sometimes buried with coals.

What happened was, eventually, ovens became common in people's homes. As such, people began cooking things that they used to roast by a fire in their oven. True roasting became a less common, since it wasn't as convenient. And because the results were similar (but not quite the same), and also because people had already come to call certain cuts of meat 'roasts' independent of how they were cooked, people continued to talk about 'roasted' meats, even though by the original definition, meat cooked in an oven was actually 'baked.' Eventually, 'roasting' and 'baking' came to mean almost the exact same thing, though there are still a few exceptions dictated by nothing more than tradition (baked ham, baked bread, roast beef, etc).

Likewise, people began to braise things in an oven, But perhaps because the nuts and bolts of 'braising' were still present, the terminology never got quite as mixed up as 'baking' and 'roasting' did. Cooking meats in an enclosed vessel with liquid in the oven remained 'braising.' Cooking other things in the oven, even if they contained water (like lasagna) was called 'baking.' Confusing things, some vegetables are said to be 'braised' when they are cooked with liquid that is slowly evaporated (this can also apply to the same process on the stove top) - braised leeks for example. This seems to be a largely arbitrary distinction, based largely on what makes the dish sound most appetizing (if you cooked the same dish in the oven and called it 'baked leeks,' you wouldn't really be incorrect).

But the take home point - nowadays, 'braising' always implies the presence of a liquid; but the presence of a liquid does not always imply braising. Tradition and convention dictate.

[paulj]

Braise is one of the more confusing, or confused, terms, because it is a hybrid. It's not a a full blown stew in which the meat is fully immersed in liquid, but not a dry roast either. Further more if you start with the meat half immersed, it might be swimming in its own juices by the end, or if it starts dry, if may be half immersed, or more, depending on the pot size, and how well the lid prevents net evaporation. Then there's the question of how essential pre browning is to the method, or radiant heat from outside the pot.

[cowboyardee]

True. I didn't mention that. A lot of what people now call 'braising' was once called 'stewing.' Similar to how 'roasting' and 'baking' have blurred their prior definitions, 'braising' and 'stewing' have done the same as people have largely abandoned some of the original techniques 'braising' referred to.

Paul, I know you've seen it, but for anyone interested, here is a thread where I and others tried out some methods of braising that are closer to the original definition, and detailed what the difference in effect is:
http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/805158

[walnut]

yes i am learning to cook and have made several things so far. I guess i am curious and want to learn things behind things. And yes i watch cooking shows to help me in learning to cook. Sorry i have a mind that works over time. But as i stated before I do appr. all the help and advice i do get..I also do research on my own ... but a lot of the questions i have does not seem to be answered in books,so i ask here.

[walnut]

if say u are braising in the oven would the heat source be baking and the cooking process be the steaming? Or would i say the heat source would be steaming bec. i added water to the pot ,half way up the sides? which would be correct.

[pinehurst]

If it's in the oven, it's baking, just to repeat.
Walnut, what do you do for a living? I ask because in my part of the country, lots of community colleges and vocational technical high schools offer evening and weekend cooking classes for free or for $10 or so to cover the cost of a day of learning. You would probably benefit, as do most cooks, from watching and questioning a pro in person.

[paulj]

Braising (in the oven) is neither baking nor steaming. However, the meat inside the pot cooks (gets hot) partly by contact with the liquid (same as in stewing and boiling) and partly by contact with steam (or moist hot air). The same applies if the braising pot is kept on the stove top (though there most of the heat is applied to the pot from below).

To complicate things, Harold McGee advocates braising with the lid off or ajar. He argues that evaporation will keep the cooking liquid below boiling, so that the meat is never boiled, and gets more tender (i.e. the ideal braising temp. is around 180-190, not 212).

But there was a thread that discussed an idea from the 6 vol Moderist Cuisine set (see the FM&N thread on 2 new science books). That, inspired by camp dutch oven cooking, applies most of the heat to the top of the (heavy metal) pot. Radiation from the hot lid then becomes an important part of the cooking. The cooking liquid in the bottom of the pan is more of source for steam that will keep the meat from drying out (as much as it would in an open oven).

[walnut]

if i do a whole chicken in one of those closed roasting pans(grey speckled enamel) and add water to almost comes up the sides of chicken would this be along the lines of braising too?

[greygarious]

If you sear it on the stovetop first. Otherwise it's just going to be poached in the oven.
The skin will be flabby and pale. If you want tasty skin you need to brown it first.

[walnut]

what about after wards ....browning it? and is cooking in a bag considered braising to,i wouldnt think so...you dont add water here?

[pinehurst]

Walnut, have you ever considered taking a cooking class at a voc. high school or a community college, so that you could have an instructor and peers from whom to learn in person?

[walnut]

i just read for lasg. to cover it....this way it steams to cook the no boil noodles. So would i be right to say the lasg. was steam baked or just baked?

[sandylc]

Just baked. Covering an item in the oven does control these things: Moisture loss and browning. These are aspects of baking - browning and drying things out. Covering your dish simply moderates these two aspects.

[paulj]

I have used them, but I imagine with no-boil noodles, the moisture that you start with is important. You don't want that to evaporate too soon. There will be steam between the lasg. and cover, but the cooking is done by the hot liquid. You are using the oven to uniformly heat the pan and its contents.

The names, bake and steam, aren't much help in understanding what is going on. They can help in the instructions, 'bake uncovered', 'bake covered'. You are unlikely to see a recipe that says 'steam in the oven'. Steaming, in recipes, means set it over boiling water, usually in a perforated container, so most of the food is heated by contact with the steam.

[greygarious]

Why do you care so much about the terminology? Are you actually learning to cook, or is this just intellectual curiosity? Do you watch cooking shows to educate, or merely to entertain, yourself? This is not meant to criticize you, merely to understand the motivation for all your questions, which seem to focus on the semantics of technique rather than on results. You can't learn to cook if all you do is watch and read - as the saying goes, you have to break some eggs if you want to make an omelet!

[paulj]

There are several ways of conveying heat to an item:
contact with hot metal
radiation
hot water
hot oil
hot steam
hot air

But with all of these, heat travels through the item by conduction. And in many foods it's the moisture, the water in the food itself, that conducts most of the heat. And as the item gets hot enough, some of that water turns to steam.

An oven heats the food primarily by hot air. But that does not alter how the heat travels through the food.

What's the effect of covering an item in the oven? Basically it traps the moisture and steam generated inside the item. I was going to say you are heating the item without drying it out. But that isn't quite right. When you heat meat, water (meat juices) are squeezed out as the proteins 'denature'. That happens whether you use dry heat, steam, or cooked covered.

What cooking in the oven does, when the food is uncovered, is let surface moisture evaporate. This reduces the overall amount of water in the item, but more importantly it lets the surface dry out, and get hotter than the boiling point of water. This crisps and browns the surface.

Often recipes call for cooking the item covered for a while, and then uncovered at the end. This retains most of the moisture during long cooking, but lets the surface crisp and brown at the end.

But if there is enough moisture in the pot (e.g. a stew or braised dish), covering might actually increase temperature inside the pot. This is because evaporation wicks heat away from the liquid, since it takes heat energy to turn water into steam. This matter if you want to cook the item (say meat) at 190F, instead of a 210F. The covered pot is more likely to be close to boiling, while evaporation might keep the uncovered 10 or 20f cooler.

[1POINT21GW]

paulj has said it perfectly and brilliantly.

Oftentimes items are baked covered with foil simply so that the top doesn't dry out and/or burn before the inside is done. it's a balancing act of having the inside and the outside done at the same time.

walnut, if you're really interested in diving in and understanding cooking and food on it's deepest level, I highly encourage you to consider getting Harold McGee's book On Food and Cooking. He is one of the, if not the, world's foremost food scientists.

Oh, and baking a potato wrapped in foil is sacrilege.

[sandylc]

"Oh, and baking a potato wrapped in foil is sacrilege"

+1.

[paulj]

I thought we were talking about food science, not food religion! :)

The science approach is to ask what is different about a potato wrapped in foil. It's easy to say it will be steamed, but I suspect the interior of the unwrapped also cooks by steaming. But unwrapped, some of that steam escapes, which should leave the potato a bit drier, and (maybe) fluffier. So much for theory, how about practice? I don't bake potatoes enough to say.

How about baking time?

How about alternative actions like puncturing the potato, either with a fork, or a metal spike? Rubbing the potato with oil?

Does the type of potato matter? Large Idahos/Russets are recommended for baking. I usually use the 'middle of the road' yellow ones. If I bake them, I do more of an oven roast - cut up (unless v small) and toss with oil and spices.

How about warming bread in the oven? wrapped or not? Why is prepared garlic bread nearly always wrapped?

[1POINT21GW]

Concerning baked potatoes, here's what I think yields the best baked potato and why:

1. Pick a russet/Idaho potato -> because the across the the scale we go to Yukon then eventually red, the waxier, rather than fluffier, the interior will be.

2. Wash the potato -> because I don't like dirty potatoes.

3. Dry the potato bone dry -> because we want the potato skin to be crispy, not soggy, and wet skin does not yield crispy skin. Steaming doesn't make things crispy, frying does.

4. Rub vegetable oil all over the potato -> because oil + heat = frying and frying makes things crispy.

5. Poke holes all over the potato with a fork -> because this allows the steam that will be created inside to escape and cause the inside to get fluffy and light rather than stay dense and gummy if the moisture is trapped inside.

6. Season with plenty of kosher salt -> because, well, salty crispy things taste good.

7. Bake it directly on the oven rack in a 350 degree oven for 1 hour -> because we don't want anything around the potato that would inhibit the fluffy interior and crispy exterior we're going for.

[pinehurst]

Walnut, if it's done inside an oven, it's baked. The tenting or foiling or covering of the food just retains moisture. The heat rendered by the oven is a dry heat...the moisture belongs to the food itself, not the heat source--so it's baking. Does that make sense?