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Shaobing - weird way to make flaky crust

p
peanuttree Jun 21, 2012 05:55 AM

So I kept looking for articles on "su bing" (how Shanghai bun in Matawan ,NJ spells it), especially on wikipedia, my preferred encyclopedia. Eventually I found it's usually written "Shaobing", and found out more about it.

To describe what it is (don't get me wrong, I've been eating them at Shanghai Bun, so I know what they're like, I just wanted to know more details about it), it's a kind of filled pastry, with a flaky crust. Can be filled with a peanut mixture, or radish, or other things. At Shanghai Bun the peanut mix is delicious, a wonderful peanutty thing that's somewhere between sweet and savoury. The radish su bing there has a nice soft texture inside.

Anyway, what I found interesting looking up online is how they make the pastry flaky. Flakiness in pastry is made by layers of fat smushed into the dough, the fat prevents the dough from sticking to itself in those spots, and so you get sort of layered pastry, and the fat crisps those places too, so in aggregate you get flakiness.

Normally this is done by cutting in a solid fat into a flour mixture, then rolling the duogh, keeping everything cold.

However, all the recipes for shaobing describe a process that makes sense that it would work, but it's different. basically, you make a roux, and then spread that on a sheet of dough you roll out. Then you fold and roll out again the sheet of dough, to make the layers. Similar to how croissants are made, but with a liquid, vegetable oil roux.
So reading about this, it makes sense that it would work. You've got the fat, you've got the layers, it's just the use of roux is interesting. I'm thinking one advantage of roux is that it's sort of "sticky", because it's got flour in it, it helps stick the dough together better.

Just one of those funny things.

Thoughts...? Anyone heard of this before?

  1. JungMann Jun 21, 2012 06:24 AM

    That is a standard technique called lamination, used to create flaky layered pastries. Basically alternating layers of water-moistened dough (détrempe) and fat-moistened dough (beurrage). When the water in the détrempe vaporizes during the cooking process, the steam leavens the dough and leaves behind separate layers of pastry enriched with your cooking fat.

    2 Replies
    1. re: JungMann
      ipsedixit Jun 21, 2012 07:45 AM

      ... or in other word, puff pastry.

      1. re: ipsedixit
        JungMann Jun 21, 2012 08:06 AM

        Or mung bean cake dough in my case.

    2. q
      qianning Jun 21, 2012 07:14 AM

      ......it all makes sense if you can get it to work, but......I've never managed to get home-made shaobing to have the "right" texture. Usually mine are drier and tougher than they should be. Don't know if it is me (probably), the recipes I've tried (several mostly from Chinese cookbooks) or my oven.

      Anyway, if you find a recipe that works well, please share!

      3 Replies
      1. re: qianning
        p
        peanuttree Jun 21, 2012 08:51 AM

        I know what you mean by drier/tougher/crunchier. Especially looking at some of the pics in the recipes.

        Haven't made the stuff myself but off the top of my head I would suggest:

        Recipes I saw used yeast-leavened dough

        Plus I would suggest folding and rolling many many times, to create many small layers. That, plus make thick "buns" or whatever, that is, don't make flat, thin pieces, you get too much crust. And maybe try washing the dough with egg wash or oil to keep the crust softer when you bake.

        And you know what? Maybe part of it is the restaurants use pre-made dough, like kept in the freezer, made at a factory. I'm pretty sure you can buy this stuff at some asian markets, just like you can buy pre-made dumplings.
        In general I find it hard to believe that the food in cantonese places is all made by scratch right before I'm served it, dim sum or otherwise. It's way too good and fast at the same time, it'd be hard to believe they aren't steaming frozen buns or using pre-made doughs or something. Then again as my uncle describes half the staff probably lives downstairs in the building and work all day long...

        1. re: peanuttree
          q
          qianning Jun 21, 2012 09:19 AM

          Interesting tips. In truth I haven't tried making shaobing in a while, I just buy the frozen stuff (you are right most Asian/Chinese groceries have some in the frozen section), it's ok, better than my attempts in truth, but no where near the shaobing I used to eat for breakfast every morning as a student in Taichung. The fresh made version done right, which hasn't usually been the case when I've had it at restaurants in the Boston area, is wonderful.

          1. re: peanuttree
            scoopG Jun 21, 2012 11:34 AM

            Chinese are clearly using two different types of dough - same principle that JungMann described above to create the flaky layers. It is important to not over-work leavened dough.

        2. scoopG Jun 21, 2012 07:42 AM

          In Chinese baking I've seen it referred to as using Flour Dough and Lard Dough. Essentially a Flour Dough is plain flour, lard, sugar, salt and water while the Lard Dough is made of cake flour and lard only. After separately kneading each and allowing the Flour Dough to set for 20 minutes, the two can be wrapped. The Lard Dough does not need to set.

          I am not sure this will give you the proper Shaobing consistency but start here:

          FLOUR DOUGH:
          2 Cups Plain Flour
          1/2 cup Lard or shortening
          1/2 cup Water
          1 Tbl. of Sugar
          1 tsp. of Salt

          LARD DOUGH:
          1 1/2 cup Cake Flour
          1/3 cup Lard or shortening

          1. ipsedixit Jun 21, 2012 07:48 AM

            If you did this, and there's no reason why it would not work, you would get a pie crust that is similar to, if not the same as, puff pastry.

            This texture is different from a traditional pie crust.

            1. buttertart Jun 21, 2012 05:13 PM

              Aren't su bing more like puff pastry and round, and shao bing flaky but rectangular? A bit breadier? I too have problems making shao bing the exact texture I want. Below, su bing with pork at the Tian Chu in Taipei.

               
              8 Replies
              1. re: buttertart
                j
                Joebob Jun 21, 2012 05:55 PM

                Boy! Does that ever look good.

                1. re: buttertart
                  q
                  qianning Jun 22, 2012 06:34 AM

                  I thought so too BT (i.e. shaobing vs. su bing). In my mind, except for the layered effect, Shaobing isn't much like puff pastry, it is, at least as I understand it, much, much leaner and slightly more bread like, and almost always rectangular. And, unusual for Chinese breads, it is often made with some part while wheat flour, no?

                  And gosh, does that picture make me want to be in Taipei (or Taichung)

                  1. re: qianning
                    JungMann Jun 22, 2012 07:28 AM

                    I was thinking cong you bing when I posted my instructions above, not shaobing.I didn't realize shaobing was laminated. It always seems much more bready to me.

                    1. re: qianning
                      buttertart Jun 22, 2012 05:13 PM

                      Meee toooo...want to be there bad. Really, really bad.
                      The shao bing you get here are not like the one I remember from Taipei, which were rather more like squashed (non-butter) croissants. The commercial ones in the US are like squashed Wonder bread. I got some Wei-chuan brand ones to see if better than the other commercial ones, haven't tried them but they don't look much different.

                    2. re: buttertart
                      ipsedixit Jun 22, 2012 07:42 AM

                      Yes, there's a textrual difference between su bing and shao bing, but the difference lies more in the wet ingredients (lard for the former, and an oil-based roux for the latter) than in the technique in how to make either.

                      Because both su bing and shao bing are made by folding the dough, and then rolling it out, and repeating.

                      But regardless, would you really want your pie crust to have the texture of shao bing?

                      1. re: ipsedixit
                        q
                        qianning Jun 22, 2012 07:54 AM

                        definitely would not want my pie crust, or puff pastry, to have the texture of shaobing!

                        1. re: qianning
                          ipsedixit Jun 22, 2012 08:01 AM

                          Right.

                          Because a good pie crust generally has the texture in-between a croissant and a biscuit.

                          1. re: ipsedixit
                            s
                            sandylc Jun 22, 2012 06:21 PM

                            To me the best pie crust is flaky, but also brown and crisp!

                    3. r
                      roro808 Jun 21, 2012 07:30 PM

                      It's also called Chinese Pita Bread. It's not supposed to be a bun, rather, a flakky flat bread. Such as pita bread, you can fill anything you want and fold them. Fillings include sesame paste, savory stuffing or plain sweets.

                      Enjoy

                      1. sbp Jun 22, 2012 06:16 PM

                        For Googling purposes, I suspect the Pinyin spelling would be xiao, rather than shao. You get a different mix of hits with the alternative spelling, but they do seem to be referencing the same pastry.

                        8 Replies
                        1. re: sbp
                          q
                          qianning Jun 22, 2012 07:18 PM

                          hmmm, no the pinyin is definitely shao bing (literally "baked/roasted, 烧 , pinyin-shao; cake/bread饼, pinyin-bing". see this, it's not a very good entry but it gets some of the gist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaobing

                          Not sure why, but despite what the wiki says, shaobing are quite common in Taiwan, where they are a common breakfast food.

                          1. re: qianning
                            sbp Jun 22, 2012 08:27 PM

                            Thanks. I assumed it was "little" cake. And googling xiao bing does come up with a bunch of hits for what look like empanadas.

                            1. re: qianning
                              buttertart Jun 23, 2012 04:52 PM

                              Best use was as a bun for Mongolian barbecue at the Aristocrat on Lin Shen Bei Lu...I would kill to be able to taste that again, and see the bossy waitress and the owner who looked like no one as much as Charles Mingus...

                              And salty doujiang with shaobing youtiao...

                              1. re: buttertart
                                q
                                qianning Jun 23, 2012 06:06 PM

                                Mongolian BBQ in Taipei, gosh was the Aristocat the place with the cooks who had those absolutely quintessential Mei-Meng faces and looked about a thousand years old and used those long chopsticks with an incredible slow rhythm and sudden flourish at the end?

                                But as for shao bing, i'd forgotten how good they were with Mongolian BBQ (but I do always want shaobing w/ Shuang Yang Rou--that's what got me to try making them), but still & all "烧饼加蛋 from the vendor just outside campus at Tunghai is still my favorite memory of a really good shaobing.

                                1. re: qianning
                                  buttertart Jun 24, 2012 07:42 AM

                                  They were something to behold, yes. Probably before your time, though, we were there 80-82. It wasn't there when we got back for the first time many years later (damnit) (unlike the Celestial and Peng's).
                                  Ah Taipei.

                                  1. re: buttertart
                                    q
                                    qianning Jun 24, 2012 01:40 PM

                                    I was there in '74 (tour group--Mongolian BBQ fascinated me that trip), and then again in '81-83 (student, then teacher, living in Taichung but visiting Taipei fairly often, including a few visits to the Mongolian BBQ place), it was always the same two older gentlemen cooking. Have been to Taiwan only a few times since and not anywhere near the Mongolian BBQ place. The name of the restaurant is absolutely gone from my memory.

                                    1. re: qianning
                                      buttertart Jun 24, 2012 04:31 PM

                                      The same one then, just up from the Hsin Hsin Department Store? How fun to think we were both there. I don't remember any other waiguoren there ever.

                                      1. re: buttertart
                                        q
                                        qianning Jun 24, 2012 05:26 PM

                                        Yes, that was it near the Hsin Hsin. Small world after all, huh?

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