Virginia is in the South, Not the Mid-Atlantic.

[mook1]

If Kentucky is considered "South" then so should Virginia. Its ridiculous to include places like Richmond and Charlottesville in with places like Newark and Camden. What do y'all think?

[Jacquilynne]

Hey, folks, as Dave MP said upthread, we recognize that it's not a perfect classification, but we factored both geography and the nature of the board discussions into how states got aligned. We'll reconsider it again next time we do a major board realignment, but for now, this argument isn't really going to go anywhere but in circles, and we're going to lock it.

[mojoeater]

I've lived in Virginia most of my life and graduated from UVA. The vast majority of this state's population does not consider itself southern. Certainly not in the NoVa or Tidewater areas where the population is most dense. Charlottesville locals don't call themselves Southern and that town is much closer to DC, both culturally and geographically, than NC. Culturally, you need to get south of Roanoke to really get a southern feel.

[mook1]

Um, that is not true. Maybe for people in Northern Virginia. Richmond is very much the South, and Charlottesville is too. Danville, Lynchburg, etc. The only areas in Virginia that are not as Southern as they used to be are Hampton Roads and Northern Virginia. Hampton Roads is largely military , and NOVA of course is Gov't workers. Virginia by and large is very much like North Carolina, although I will say, North Carolina is losing its Southern feeling too. Richmond is much more Southern , though than Raliegh. BTW, what Charlottesville "locals" do you know? I know many and they are very much Southern. The original "Walton's Mountain" just down the road from there. Charlottesville is halfway between DC and Carolina. But I'm not using North Carolina as a Southern marker. Virginia has its own. Roanoake is more Appalachia Southern, which is a different thing entirely.

[carolinadawg]

And all that is important for the purpose Chowhound serves why, exactly?

[mook1]

In the vast global scheme of things, I guess it really doesn't matter. But it is annoying.

[carolinadawg]

It's not that it doesn't matter in the vast Global scheme of things. The pertinent point is that It doesn't matter in the scheme of Chowhound.com. Which is what all posts on here are supposed to be about.

[chowser]

Exactly. Take it up with Wikipedia which also puts Va in the MidAtlantic and is an information source. I just want good food, no matter what it's categorized as.

[mook1]

According to Wiki, def, of Virginia, Virginia is a South Atlantic state. Look it up for yourself. Also, Virginia schools are listed with the Southern Association of Colleges and Universities.

[carolinadawg]

Once again, as it relates to Chowhound.com, so what?

[chowser]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atla...

Look at the map.

[mook1]

That is just 1 map.
According to Wiki, Virginia is a South Atlantic state
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia

http://etc.usf.edu/maps/pages/4400/44...

[chowser]

In other words, it's not cut and dry because there are multiple sources that say it's part of the Mid-Atlantic. But, for the purposes of CH, as carolinadawg keeps saying, it's irrelevant.

This is obviously a very important issue to you. Maybe you could take it up somewhere where it matters to the content? Maybe Southern Living? Although, it might annoy you that they include Delaware and Maryland in their magazine, too.

[mojoeater]

I've lived in Cville since 1988 with a brief stint out West. I know this town very well. It is far more like DC (where I grew up) than NC, where we have family and spend a good deal of time. But I agree with cdawg in that this makes no difference when it comes to Chowhound.

[mook1]

Charlottesville is nothing like DC. Its a small college town. Apples and oranges. UVA has a lot of Northern students that come down to go to school there. The local people aren't Northerners, they are Southerners. I dont usually like to stereotype either, but one of the people that towed my car away was like Boss Hog and had a junkyard dog and everything. C-ville is very artsy, but its laid back and Southern artsy. And NC Chapel Hill is almost identical to C-ville in personality. There is much racial tension in C-ville between whites and the Negroes. But Im not saying that makes it more "Southern", but its definitely nothing like DC.

[mojoeater]

Hilarious that you think you know a town better than someone who has lived there over 20 years, based on the person who towed your car. BTW, there is racial tension just about everywhere in our country including our nation's capital. Sad but true.

[mook1]

Well, I live in Richmond. but I go to Charlottesville almost every other weekend to play music. I know that town very well. Its is nothing like the DC area. I would compare it to maybe Ashville, NC or maybe even Fredericksburg . I know it does have quite a bit of people from the Northeast that have come down there in recent years, but its still a small Southern college town. Im just almost puzzled how you could even say its even remotely like DC. Its like the opposite of DC.

[carolinadawg]

And Asheville is probably the most un-southern place in NC.

[mook1]

I meant, because it was near the mountains.

[carolinadawg]

But you are railing about the relative southerness of VA, attempting to demonstrate that Charlottesville is southern because its like Asheville, NC. That doesn't compute.

[mook1]

Okay, bad example. Charlottesville is more like Chapel Hill. But Charlottesville is still its own unique entity, just like Richmond is . Richmond, many would agree, is much more 'Southern" in feel than places such as Nashville, Charlotte, or Atlanta. Charlottesville is Southern because it is. Southern. Its in the South. Even with lots of Northern college kids there, its Southern. It has a large black population for its area, which is more typically Southern. Its featured on the tv show "The Waltons"- a show about a Southern mountain family in Virginia.The dress code for many is still seersucker suits and bow ties. It has the Southern Frat mentality there- still.

[carolinadawg]

Chapel Hill is probably the second least southern city in NC. But keep digging that hole!

You might wan to look athe African American population of some places like Detroit before you use that as a marker for southerness.

[mojoeater]

Culinarily, Cville doesn't have great southerrn food. I'm talking the kind you can find at diners, shacks and even gas stations scattered throughout the true South. If you want great collard greens, you'll need to go to one of the 'upscale comfort food' places that will charge you $25+ an entree. I love some of those restaurants, but they are not indicative of what you are calling Southern. You can get sweet tea at fast food joints, but most restaurants brew regular and tell you to add your own sugar. Cville is also a very political town, high end philanthropic, has more people wearing $300 jeans, and the cost of living is much higher than other places you call Southern.

[mook1]

Cville is only 1 town in Virginia. One place doesn't represent the whole state. That being said, you can get much more Southern food in Charlottesville than you do in Baltimore or New Jersey. Charlottesville is a college town, and college towns tend to have more outsiders and liberals. But its still not nothern. There's nothing Northern about Charlottesville, or even "Northern Virginia" for that matter. I

[mook1]

A poll was done about 20 years ago that asked people from various Southern states do you consider yourself Southern. About 70% of Virginians said "yes" to that question. So , a vast majority of Virginians are Southern. Look up a "A Very Richmond Phone Call" on youtube. Two very Southern Belles talking on the phone. Or should I say "Mid-Atlantic " belles, lol. Oh, whatever. If you have a problem with Virginia bein' in the South, you're free to move North, lol.

[carolinadawg]

You are the only one that has a problem with Virginia's location.

[mook1]

No, many other Virginians I know don't consider themselves Mid-Atlantic either. But I will take that over 'Northeast'. Thats just absurd.

[carolinadawg]

Yes, this is absurd.

[wyogal]

If you are talking about north and south, then yes, it's south. But we have come a long way from those times. yes, I said it. You can fly your stars and bars, you can say y'all. But, this is not a political site. It's about food. and yes, you lost the war.

[mook1]

Its not just the "Confederacy", Im talking about Virginia cuisine. Thats why its important for Chowhound. Virginia culinary is traditionally 'Southern". In fact, most dishes we know about from the South, originated here. Including BBQ, spoonbread, sweet tea, etc. All from Virginia. If you don't believe me, look it up. I give up, because everyone obviously insists Virginia is not Southern at all and its basically like New Jersey. So whatever.

[carolinadawg]

I never said VA isn't a southern state, it is, but for the purposes of this site, it doesn't matter.

[chowser]

" I give up, because everyone obviously insists Virginia is not Southern at all and its basically like New Jersey"

For the purposes of this site, every state and region is different. Lumping the "South" as one type of food is a huge leap--just look at the difference in barbecue. Tell someone from N. Carolina that they have the same barbecue as someone from Kentucky and they would be fighting words. Every state has different specialties and CH is just putting them together geographically to help find them more easily. NONE of the states in any of the geographic regions is like the other states in that region.

Is Miami southern? There's no similarity between that and Richmond. I'd say Virginia is as different from Florida as it is from New Jersey. What about Hawaii and Colorado? Again, no one is saying Virginia is like New Jersey just because of a big broadbased category that CH chooses to use.

[paulj]

What exactly are you asking the Chow administrators to do?

I see a lot of argument about whether Virginia is South, but I don't see what that has to do with setup of the Chowhound boards.

[bbqboy]

bbq originated in Va?
Now That's some fightin' words! :)

[Hobbert]

But our way of life here is Southern. I drink sweet tea, not unsweet. We don't have mid-atlantic accents here in Virginia. We say Y'all, thank you. I hope you understand this is not meant to offend anyone, but Virginians are Southern. Its very much the Old South. Culturally, and Geographically.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a circular argument. I'm a Virginian and none of this is true for me. Where would you have "The Old South" start? Spotsylvania? Quantico? Lexington? Does it matter? We all found our way here...

[mook1]

You're probably a transplant, lol. But we true Virginians dont say "You guys". . Oh, I dont know, Virginia used to start at the Potomac River. There was a book called "Life below the Potomac". From Leesburg to Danville, it was all Virginian. Now I guess it starts around the Fredericksburg area because the DC sprawl has swallowed up half the state. All of Virginia is the Old South . Its the oldest Southern state.

[carolinadawg]

Of course it doesn't matter. It's simply an arbitrary way of categorizing data (in this case, the names of states) so its organized and people can find it. Nothing more. Anyone who takes offense is ascribing way too much importance to the names of the boards.

[Hobbert]

Ah, thanks. I found myself buying into the silliness. Sheesh.

[mook1]

I think it kinda does matter. Its a misrepresentation. Mid-Atlantic is the states of NY, PA, NJ, and DE. Sometimes MD too. But Virginia simply does not mesh with this categorization. I guess nothing can be done about it, but its just silly. If KY gets to be listed on "The South" , then Virginia should be too. Kentucky is virtually indistinguishable from Ohio. I have a Virginia accent, and it sounds nothing like New Joisey people. I dont know why anyone would mistake us for Mid Atlantic. But anyways, Im done with this topic. Obviously no one knows much about Virginia cuisine and our history.

[carolinadawg]

Good lord man, come on. KY is NOT on any "South" board. There is no "South" board. And no it doesn't matter. And I say that as someone who's family came to VA in 1635.

[mook1]

If you go to the former "Chowhound South" , it lists all the states on "South" including KY-TN and then it has the "Southeast Boards". so yes it is listed in the South. It certainly isn't listed as Midwest or Mid-Atlantic.

[carolinadawg]

Ultimately, it makes no difference what board any particular state is included in. People would still post about food in VA (or any other state) regardless of whether it's placed on a board called "South", "North", "East" "Southeast" , "United States" or "Western Hemisphere". Wherever VA is located, people will find it and post about it. It's a moot point.

[mook1]

Okay, then Lets Puts South Carolina in the 'Mid-Atlantic" boards and see what happens. Or Kentucky in the Midwest, and see how that goes, shall we? I'm just relieved that Virginia was not put in the "Northeast". My hand to God, how could anyone say we are a Northeastern state? Does that make Georgia a Mid-Atlantic state, lol. Virginia is the South ,damn it.

[carolinadawg]

Last time. It doesn't matter. It's not a statement of socio-demographics. It's simply a way of organizing states on this site. Users of the site will post threads on the appropriate state board regardless of what it's called.

[Dave MP]

@mook1: We understand that Virginia is a Southern State, but based on posting patterns at the time these boards were divided, it was most appropriate to include it with the other states on the Mid-Atlantic board. But thanks for this feedback, we are definitely taking it into consideration.

[meatn3]

The geography of the boards does not really correspond with culture, self identification or general perception.

When CH had less traffic there were fewer boards which consisted of larger geographic areas which were more intuitively organized. A few years ago they created a number of new boards which created an outpouring of frustration. To no avail...

Don't waste energy on this - TPTB really don't get it nor do they care.

[bbqboy]

Sometimes I thin there should be an NYC board and an everywhere else board and that's it.
There'd still probably be fights. :)

[mook1]

Thanks for your input. Virginia is not DC. Its Virginia, and Virginia is actually a South Atlantic state along with the Carolinas and Georgia. I do think its possible for regions to overlap each other- you could say the extreme northern part of Virginia is the Southern end of the Mid-Atlantic. But our way of life here is Southern. I drink sweet tea, not unsweet. We don't have mid-atlantic accents here in Virginia. We say Y'all, thank you. North Carolina line is less than an hour's drive from my house. When I travel South I feel at home more than I do when I travel up to NJ and places that actually are "Mid-Atlantic". I hope you understand this is not meant to offend anyone, but Virginians are Southern. Its very much the Old South. Culturally, and Geographically.

[paulj]

Can you point us to some threads, either on SE or Mid-Atlantic, where the categorization of Virginia matters? For example, a thread where people are talking about both Virginia and North Carolina food trends or restaurants.

The description for Mid-Atlantic says: " Virginia, West Virginia, Delaware and Maryland" - doesn't Virginia dominate in that collection? It looks like 80% of the threads are VA.

The fact that Mid-Atlantic is part of a larger Mid-Atlantic grouping, as opposed to the South one, does not seem very significant.

[Quine]

ROFL....when I read this I thought Newark, Del. and Camden Yards in MD.

A very very silly and poor argument. The switch to NJ having it's own board was made several years ago. I think there was some (and perhaps still) some feuding of where Conn should be.

Now, since I live in South Coastal NJ, NYC is another country, one I love to visit and think of VA, as Mid Atlantic because of DC and the Chesapeake. And before you go off saying what can someone from NJ know, my dear cousin resides in Yorktown and I always love to travel the entire way there and back via the coastal route. Yeah, its mid Atlantic.

BTW, Welcome to CH.

[carolinadawg]

I think Chowhound isn't going to move Virginia back to the Southeast Board.

[grangie angie]

Dontcha' just love these geography lessons?

[wyogal]

I don't think this is about geography.

[mook1]

Then put Kentuck in the Midwest , then. Its not the South. Virginia is much more Southern than KY . Kentucky wasn't even in the Confederacy.

[wyogal]

So, there you have it. Stars and bars.

[carolinadawg]

I don't have the ability to put "Kentuck" anywhere, so asking me to do so is pointless. Not to mention, Kentucky isn't part of the "South" board, it's part of a separate board with TN.

[bbqboy]

That's OK. There isn't a midwest board anymore either. :)

[GH1618]

Washington suburbs are certainly Mid-Atlantic. Richmond perhaps not.

[cwdonald]

They generally don't break up states. And New Jersey is north of Delaware.. so perhaps it is not MID on the Atlantic coast. The reality is that the states lumped together do not get enough traffic to justify their own boards. And while KY and VA border each other, the predominant part of the population in VA is close to MD than it is to KY. And VA does have coast too ... Virginia beach etc. And this thread should be moved to the Site Talk board where non food related topics are discussed.

[mook1]

Thats why It should be Virginia and The Carolinas. Im only about an hour's drive from North Carolina. We got good BBQ in Richmond. Cotton and Peanuts grow near where i live. That ain't Mid-Atlantic.

[mook1]

Yes, but my point is Kentucky is basically same latitude as Virginia- and Kentucky is included in the " South", but Virgina (which IMO is far more "Southern culturally than KY) is not included in the South. Virginia cuisine is traditionally Southern. I believe Northern Virginia is Southern in comparison to New York and PA, correct me if Im wrong, and certainly Richmond, Virginia is Southern. Its south of Louisville on the map anyway. If they put Kentucky in "South", then so should Virginia be.

[chowser]

As someone who lives in NoVa, I consider where I live more like the DC/metro MD area than Richmond. VA used to broken up between NoVa, inside the beltway, and the rest that was part of the mid-Atlantic. I can't remember when it changed but as people moved out, more people outside the beltway considered themselves more part of DC than southern VA. And, VA is part of the Mid-Atlantic, geographically speaking. Maybe the argument should be made to move Kentucky from the South.

[mook1]

No, Virginia is a South Atlantic State- a South Coastal state like North Carolina. Northern Virginia is still in the South geographically, but its a very transient area. The point is, KY is included in "South" If Virginia is "Mid-Atlantic" then Kentucky should be "Midwest'. Hate to break this to you, but Virginia is a Southern state. If anyone has a problem with that, they are free to move North. Northern Virginia is still very different from Maryland. I am from Northern Virginia and Maryland is like a foreign country to me. Richmond most definitely is the South, though. So maybe by today's standards, we could lump NOVA/DC/MD as cut off between South and Mid-Atlantic.

[Hobbert]

So you want part of VA in the South? I don't think CH is going to partition off states.

[monkfish21]

As a New Yorker who lives inside the beltway in NoVa, I will correct Mook1, as he requested, for being wrong. Sure, DC is different than NY or Philly, but it is not "Southern." I've also lived in Richmond and spent a lot of time in Atlanta and the Carolinas, so I know the difference. Richmond is somewhat southern, but it's practically Boston when you compare it to Savannah, Mobile or Memphis.

As far as Virginia being at the same latitude as Kentucky, I think being "southern" is more about culture than geography. Do you think Arizona should be classified as the south? Because it's located further south than both KY and VA. So is Los Angeles. And while I don't have a lot of experience with Kentucky, from the few times I've been there, culturally it seems WAY more southern than anywhere in Virginia, except the most southwest portion of the Old Dominion (which borders KY and TN).

[mook1]

Richmond is "somewhat Southern", Are you kidding?" Richmond is very Southern, and its much more Southern than Raleigh, Nashville, or Atlanta. Richmond people are very much like Charleston people. Even the accents are similar. Of course its not the Deep South, but its still the South, Richmond is like Like Boston? On what planet are you on?. I know the areas well. Kentucky is nowhere near as Southern as Virginia. And Southwest VA is Appalachia, once again- different.

[monkfish21]

Mook1, I hate to break it to you, but as I have heard from "Real Southerners" several times, the only people in the south who think Virginia is still part of the south are Virginians. If you get culture shock from going to Maryland, well, maybe you should go ask a 'Bama boy what he thinks of your Yankee ass.

[mook1]

I met a lady giving a tour of the Margaret Mitchell house in Atlanta and she was from Georgia, and she asked me where I was from, and I said "Virginia" and she said it was nice to meet a fellow Southerner. So there. BTW, Virginia was Southern long before Alabama was even a state.

[carolinadawg]

Conversely, when I was a freshman at the U. of GA, I was frequently called a Yankee.

[mook1]

Virginians ARE REAL SOUTHERNERS. It is the oldest Southern state. I tell people from Alabama, "Y'all are just copying us", lol. They are just jealous. They can't claim Robert E. Lee or Patsy Cline or Country Music- all came from Virginia.

[monkfish21]

Yes, I'm aware that Virginia is historically southern, capital of the Confederacy and all that. I'm also living in and looking at Virginia in 2012. It ain't 1860 anymore.

And yes, I know Richmond is not really like Boston. It's called figurative hyperbole, done for dramatic effect. The point was that compared to other cities, Richmond does not have an abundance of southern culture. Not devoid of it, just not that much.

Bigger question: as many others have pointed out, what difference does it make on these boards?

[carolinadawg]

Kentucky and Tennessee are their own board, not part fo the "South" board (which doesn't exist, btw)

[mook1]

They didn't used to be.

[wyogal]

But it's on the Atlantic coast, unlike Kentucky.

[cwdonald]

New Jersey is not part of the MidAtlantic board either. It has its own board.