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We will be in STL April 27-29 and need suggestions for food

My girlfriend and I will be in STL at the end of April and need ideas of places to eat. We have been to STL before, a few years ago and ate at Niche, Mango and Sen Thai and loved them, but this time we want to try other places. We are staying at The Moonrise Hotel and we will have a car, but we would like to be able to use mass transit as much as possible. We are possibly moving to STL and we need to see how viable it is to travel around the city using mass transit. We love most types of food, but we are especially interested in Ethiopian and Southeast Asian food, so recommendations for those cuisines would be great. We are also open to any other recommendations that hounders may have. I have looked at several of the boards and we are thinking that we may want to go to Rooster for Sunday brunch before we head out of town. We are trying to get a sense of what it would be like to live and eat in STL, where would a native St Louis-ian go on a typical dinner out.

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  1. Mass transit here is...not as good as it should be. You will be very near one of the Metrolink stops, as you've probably figured out. The Central West End stop near Barnes-Jewish Hospital is a couple of blocks south of the beginning of the Euclid strip of restaurants that goes about, oh, seven blocks north from there. And on the other Metrolink line, there's a stop in Clayton, which also has lots of restos. But basically, you're going to be auto-dependent, especially on Sunday, which as I recall is a day on which bus frequency dries up considerably.

    Vietnamese right on Metrolink would be Mai Lee. We are somewht short on Ethiopian, although there's one up the street from the Eclipse (c'mon, guys, help me out here) and another on South Grand, which has another cluster of multi-ethnic restaurants. (Delmar Boulevard in the Loop has a fair selection, but not as good as South Grand.) They're putting in a trolley, by the way, to run from that area to Forest Park, with a stop at the Metrolink station there at DeBaliviere and the Forest Park Expressway, but that won't be until, umm, maybe next year.

    A typical dinner out for a native gives you a lot of room, and I'm not sure that's so good. Haven't you noticed the arguments about provel cheese? Maybe a typical dinner out for a STL CHer, that we can help you with. I'm sure there'll be more from others chiming in.

    5 Replies
    1. re: lemons

      Hey Lemons - isn't the trolley supposed to be one of those dolled-up buses? still a good idea.

      4/27 should be an awesome time for all the sidewalk cafes that are found in the CWE and even now downtown on Washington or the courtyards in Soulard. might be early for the Venice Cafe garden (drinks not food really) - a friend from ATL remarked 2 years back "we don't have anything like this!"

      Moonrise is a good location. but if ya want Ethiopian go to DC. in STL VN is best found on the southside (Grand mostly although I do defer to Lemons on Mai Lee, just haven't yet been myself, always running to the faves) sadly Metro, other than bus doesn't yet run quite to that part. and some of the Mexican is the best, but those areas are even harder to get to on transit.

      an STL-er knows the side streets and short cuts and how to drive so ya never get out of second gear so even if road work is occurring or one had maybe had a drink too many at dinner... (and the streets meander so you need patience and a general idea so study a map - Elaine Viets during her tenure at the Post-Dispatch had entire columns on this)

      It's becoming a great food place on a daily basis, but if you re-locate you may want to hold on to one car.

      STL is sorta secretive that way. great things, and we'll tell, but the right question has to be asked. (I know weird, but once you know 6 people it's easy to know 100 and then you're set) as a long ex-pat sort of recently sort of returned it really has started to re-bloom.

      1. re: hill food

        I'm thinking it's gonna be a real trolley, not one of those dolled-up buses, but I suppose we could re-check the story online. Joe Edwards (he owns the Eclipse, and other major players in the neighborhood of it, boxerdad, a good guy on his way to becoming one of the princes of the city) usually does things right.

        1. re: lemons

          Thanks for all of the help so far. My thought about the mass transit system in STL was as you have confirmed, Ok, but not great and definitely not the best way to get around. We will have the car and I am more than willing to drive where ever there is going to be a good meal. I will have to check on Eclipse and his other places. We were thinking of going to Five for dinner one night, any thoughts?

          1. re: boxerdad

            Only been to Five once, for lunch, but it was very good. Amazing burger. That's on The Hill proper. Despite the bunch of Italian places, many touristy and piles of sauce and cheese. my favorites there are Five, Modesto (very good tapas place) and Adriana's (wonderful Sicilian sandwiches/pizza/pastas, very near Five).

          2. re: lemons

            a real trolley would be nice, maybe the success of the Loop could spread up to Wellston (I know it's going to take years)

      2. Definitely hit So. Grand for a variety of Thai, Vietnamese and also mid-eastern (The Vine and Natasha, but especially The Vine). I think you'll find the Asian meals there (such as at Thai Basil, Pho Grand, Bahn Mi So 1) much better than Sen Thai. And check out Jay's Int'l Market there as well; you may want to do some shopping there if you set up house in StL. I also can't recommend Taste enough. It's in the CWE and is really unique in concept; not ethnic but very interesting, oft-changing and always delicious small-plate offerings, plus an incredible array of designer cocktails. And it's an all-round pleasant atmosphere. And there's plenty of other places for nice outdoor eating and drinking within a few block radius. It's the most Paris- or Brussels- like area that we have.

        8 Replies
        1. re: Wayno

          Ok, so we can hit up So. Grand for sure.

          1. re: boxerdad

            I must concur as to the sad state of our mass transit...I strongly suggest you hang on to a car, though there is a lot of biking in this area, as well, if that is an option for you guys. I haven't been to Everest in a while www.everestcafe.com, but they do a terrific lunch buffet, Nepali/Korean (he's from Nepal, she's from Korea, some dishes meet in the middle). Everest is in the 'Grove' neighborhood, kind of up and coming, Manchester Road between Kingshighway & Grand. Once again, I love how hill food puts it, I'm told this can be a difficult town to make friends in (we all know each other some way or the other), but if you can get to know 6 people you can get to know the hundreds that they know...I think you will like South Grand, and do try The Vine if you get a chance. As of right now, I think the trolley is a trolley, which would be awesome. We'll see if it works out that way.

            1. re: tonifi

              ahh tonifi, et al (this is sorta OT) we gotta be careful not to scare off boxerdad. STL is sort of a secret society in both streets and social ways but I would say "hey we're pretty friendly and you and your spouse have a social advantage in that since you didn't go to high school here you're an unknown quantity. and can be whoever you like (just don't push that too far)"

              back to the original question, there was a time when one really didn't cross Skinker on foot if there was a choice (and I was a kid that scoured Wellston for liquor stores that didn't card, is Mama Mildred's still around?).

              you can easily spend a nice long walking graze along Delmar for a day. the CWE or Clayton aren't in walking distance but easily Metro'ed from your hotel (god once as a bored teenager I walked from Clayton High to Maryland Plaza, I can't remember the exact route - and in summer. only took about 3 mid-day hours. not a good idea but I was even dumber than I am now).

              1. re: hill food

                My gosh, I can't imagine that walk being not a good idea unless it was one of those 100-degree-plus days. Lindell Boulevard is too fine.

                Would add Lorenzo's to the Hill list, and for traditional red-sauce Italian, Gian-Tony's.

                1. re: lemons

                  oh that is a beautiful walk, but it was a terribly hot day (and that's a long stretch between sources of refreshment)

                  Gian-Tony's has bocce courts right? nice patio, good pizza.

                  1. re: hill food

                    I think you're thinking Milo's. No patio, no bocce. Not as formal as Giuseppe's or Dominic's, but Gian-Tonhy's waiters are sort of dressed up. Osso bucco to die for and the eggplant rolatini would impress your nonna.

                    1. re: lemons

                      Milo's right. why do I always do that? this isn't the first time. (obviously my user name has nothing to do with The Hill in STL)

              2. re: tonifi

                I was thinking of Everest too.

          2. Since you are gonna be so close it it, I would check out Pi on Delmar. Great pizzas and they have some awesome looking milkshakes (haven't tried on yet, but they look amazing) and a nice selection of beers. Pi is kind of a favorite among locals - but they aren't St. Louis Style pizza.

            1 Reply
            1. re: mtoo

              Ha! I'm not trying to scare people off (well, not the nice ones anyway). Seriously, this is a town of very diverse neighborhoods, find the one that fits and you will love it here. And choosing your neighborhood by the restaurants/grocery stores you like sure isn't the worst way to decide where you want to live...

            2. Again, thanks for all of the advice and ideas for food. We are not going to be scared off, this move comes down to a job. If my spouse gets the job at SLU, we are moving, if not, than we aren't. And this is the kind of response I hoped for. I am getting great insights into the non-touristy things. I have looked at the boards and it was a lot of ideas for someone just visiting, and although we are just visiting this time, we are also trying to get a sense of the food scene beyond the better know restaurants,we are trying to get to know some of the neighborhood places too.

              We will have a car, so we are not tied to metrolink, we can and probably will drive when we have to. I was just trying to get a sense of whether we could leave a car for a day and get to restaurants from the hotel using mass transit, if not than we drive, I have GPS for a reason.

              Another quick question since the response has been so great, it is very likely that Friday morning I will be grabbing breakfast alone since the wife will probably be on the last part of her interview, is there a cafe or something within walking distance from Moonrise where I can grab breakfast (coffee and such) or should I just to Eclipse for breakfast that morning?

              6 Replies
                1. re: FriendOfTheDevil

                  And the breakfast really is quite good. Nothing particularly wonderful even halfway nearby.

                2. re: boxerdad

                  SLU? a few friends teach there at the main campus, great location, interesting things going on in "Grand Center" there are some awesome neighborhoods near there (and yeah some skruddy ones) and it's so easy to get to or from anywhere in the city proper. do give Metrolink a shot as everyone has different mass transit ideas/tolerances (just not on interview day obviously)

                  I and many of my friends love the Tower Grove Park area (TGPE, TGPN, etc. it's a long park so each side is sort of distinct) in TGPS on Morganford is Local Harvest Grocery and Cafe, bit pricey but very high quality and yeah local (duh) www.localharvestgrocery.com

                  get your ass out of bed the interview AM and drop the SO off at the meeting while you go to nearby World's Fair Donuts in TGN for a sack of fried pies and doughnuts (gotta get there early for the pies) and walk off the cholesterol at the Garden or in TGP waiting for the p/u call then hit South Grand with her for lunch.

                  1. re: hill food

                    Good call, although the coffee @ World's Fair is dismal. Also in TGP area is a wonderful old-style saloon called the Royale, with a definitely-young crowd, although geezers like moi feel comfortable (and well-fed) there.

                    1. re: lemons

                      oh yeah the Royale has a nice patio, good music and decent burgers. but gotta say I'd maybe steer in-town-for a few-days-folks somewhere else. but you could do far worse.

                      1. re: hill food

                        Very good burgers, nice vibe, and food several cuts above saloon fare at Royale.

                3. If you're staying at Moonrise, Selam Ethiopian is around the corner on Rosedale. Exit the hotel, turn left and then take your first right onto Rosedale. Ate there about a month ago, and enjoyed it -- mostly other Ethiopians in the restaurant. (There's a handful around town, but the gringos tend to know about Selam or Meskerem on South Grand, from what I can tell.) For whatever reason, Selam offers relatively few "sampler" plates and more main courses, which tends to run against type for most Ethiopian places I've been to.

                  Last weekend I took a Metrolink tour going from Skinker (near the Loop) to downtown. It's an easy way to see downtown, but not as efficient as car, unless going for a game or concert or other parking-challenged event. Metro is pretty decent for a mid-sized city, and better than some larger cities.

                  If you're headed to the Missouri Botanical Garden, then World's Fair Donuts is a nice stop, since you'll end up parking right by it. But this isn't a good donut town, for some reason, and World's Fair isn't worth seeking out, IMO.

                  Pi pizza is where I ate when I stayed at Moonrise when investigating St. Louis. It's a nice place and has a student-y feeling, being so close to Wash U. (and the home where I settled, in fact). It's not St. Louis style pizza, which is mostly terrible, but a good representative of what St. Louis does decently -- neither true junk food nor higher end fare.

                  Five is a very fine option, and will take you to a different part of town. You can pair it with some of the other neighborhood attractions such as Italian groceries, Missouri Baking Co., a smattering of bars, etc.

                  I moved here about a year ago, and spent a lot of time exploring city neighborhoods while looking for housing and learnign about the town -- i.e., generally did not want to live in the suburbs. If you have questions, feel free to reach out individually and I'll add my two cents. The town is trickier than locals think, I feel, and it's worth entering with open eyes.

                  5 Replies
                  1. re: brownhound

                    If you go to World's Fair donuts, promise me you will get at least one plain cake, if they still have any. I am not so much about the sweet stuff, but their little plain cake donut is the fried chicken of donuts (my cousin's words...she makes me bring her a bag of them whenever I visit Springfield). Mrs. Clanton will tell you if they have any 'in the back' if you don't see them in the case.

                    1. re: tonifi

                      "Mrs. Clanton will tell you if they have any 'in the back'"

                      now that's the kind of insider stuff one needs to know I referred to

                      b'hound - what's tricky about it? I don't want to de-rail this but I am curious. the layout, the habits and foibles? in not so many words I've been trying to express that once the puzzle is figured out it's all really quite simple. (and we could collaborate on a book regarding the shift in shipping methods and the commodities traded over the last 150 years, rust belt, white flight, black flight, misguided urban renewal attempts, entrenched political structures etc.)

                      1. re: hill food

                        Now that I think we may get to keep you, boxerdad...if you and the spouse are out & about on Saturday morning, you should get thee down to Soulard Market and have a wander around...there are more farmer's markets that are 'greener' (Tower Grove)and more 'upmarket' (Clayton) but Soulard is big and old and loud and it has been around a long, long time. Lots of vendors who are selling conventional produce, (but usually at WAY better prices than at the supermarkets) but increasingly, there are also lots of local farmers/meat producers/cheesemongers/ soapmakers, and a big old bunch of people with their little market carts whacking you in the ankles buying bananas and broccoli. The smaller farmer's markets haven't really kicked in yet, but Soulard is open all year 'round. I know you won't be shopping for groceries, per se, but it is one of my favorite places to people watch...and I love to be all tourist-y in places where people buy food. (My friends truly don't understand, but I have FUN at farmer's markets...best place in the world to talk to people, I think).

                        1. re: tonifi

                          and you can chug beer while ya stroll the market! grubby and cool. gotta say markets and grocery stores are my favorite places to hit when visiting a new town

                          1. re: tonifi

                            I love farmers markets. I agree they are the best places to talk to and meet people. Once they really start up, we tend to go to them pretty regularly, there is one I go to almost weekly on Wednesdays and then we will go to another one on Saturdays many weekends, so I am with you on the great places to people watch and to shop for food.

                    2. We removed some posts from the thread that were about all sorts of things related to St. Louis but not about food. We try to keep the boards pretty focused on the chow.

                      Some of those posts were long and thoughtful, so if anyone wants a copy of their removed posts for other uses, please email us at moderators@chowhound.com and we an email you the text.

                      1. I grew up in St. Louis and visit family at least a couple of times a year. These are some of my top choices to eat when I'm in town:

                        Cafe Manhattan -- on Hanley in Clayton, south of the civic center -- My longtime favorite for St. Louis style pizza. Pair it with an Italian salad. Yep, I love that provel cheese. Don't believe the naysayers -- St. Louis pizza is my first and last stop.

                        The Fatted Calf -- heart of Clayton -- Flame-grilled burgers with a scoop of soft cheddar cheese. This place has almost bitten the dust a couple of times and needs to be saved.

                        O'Connell's Pub -- on Kingshighway near the Hill -- Now that smoking is banned, I can actually go into this place and enjoy their excellent burgers and maybe even better roast beef sandwiches. Better still, go with someone and split each.

                        The Crossing -- heart of Clayton -- Fairly formal, on the expensive side, but they offer a four-course, "tasting" menu with mix and match selections for each course for $32 and a higher level for $45. I like their crab cake, the pasta is housemade and a small portion befitting the multiple courses, the short rib makes a good entree, fine desserts. A very good value for a dress-up occasion with valet parking and excellent service.

                        Blues City Deli -- in Benton Park, just south and west from downtown -- Excellent sandwiches.

                        Pappy's and/or Bogart's -- near SLU and Soulard, respectively -- Great BBQ and fantastic people. Great ribs (Bogart's are glazed with a torched apricot topping), pulled pork (order it with the "bark"), brisket, and at Bogart's pastrami and prime rib. Go early, when they run out of meat they stop serving. The first exceptional BBQ worth waiting in line for in St. Louis.

                        Tony's -- caddy-corner to the stadium downtown -- For decades St. Louis's premier fine-dining restaurant. Though they get criticized on this board ("staid" "old-fashioned") if you want to dress up, spend (by St. Louis standards), and be pampered by very attentive service and some tableside preparation, they still have the chops. Yes, both my dad and mom are known there, and it is definitely a special occasion place, but the rare occasions I am treated there are truly special. I think Tony's is taken for granted, having been there so long, and also the victim of some envy -- they do it right.

                        Ted Drewe's -- on Chippewa, the old 66 -- There is nothing better than a hot afternoon or post-Cards game run to Ted Drewe's. Standing in fast-moving lines with happy people and excited children for wonderful frozen custard, in sundaes or "concretes" with mix-in flavorings (I like chocolate with extra malt) so thick it will stay in an upside-down cup and must be eaten with a spoon. So rich a kids-size will satisfy, but I order way too much anyway. Happiest place in St. Louis.

                        1. Hello all,

                          We found our weekend in STL fun at times and interesting the whole time. I did not end up having breakfast Friday morning as I just wanted for my SO to be done with her last day of interviews. We decided to walk through the Loop and University City a bit and just find something to eat. We ended up at Blueberry Hill. I had the breakfast platter of eggs, bacon, toast and tater tots. The tots were great and such a great way of making the breakfast potatoes that are so ubiquitous. The eggs were fine, the bacon was Ok, some of it was a bit burned and a few of the pieces of toast were a bit burned as well. Both the bacon and the toast were not so burned they were inedible, but also a bit more over cooked than I wanted. My SO had the chicken noodle soup and grilled cheese sandwich. She said the grilled cheese was just fine, nothing great. But she really enjoyed the chicken noodle soup, it tasted home made and really made the meal for her.

                          After walking around the Loop, going in and out of stores which we really liked. We actually enjoyed the Loop and University City, there were a lot of great stores, namely Subterranean Books among them. We decided for dinner that night we would just go down to the Eclipse since we were staying at Moonrise. My SO started with the cheese plate which I also sampled a few pieces of cheese from. This was really good and had a good selection of cheese, fruits and some small pieces of bread. She then had the ribeye steak. It had a good taste, but she said the texture was a bit odd. She said it was a bit soft and mushy in texture. The green beans she had with the steak were delicious. The potatoes gratin that came with the steak, looked really interesting with several layers of potatoes. She said that the potatoes were al dente so not quite cooked fully and the gratin was just OK. I had the calamari which was really good and tender. The chimichurri sauce that came with the calamari was spicy and added a great balance to the squid as a dipping sauce. I then had the Caesar salad, which I thought was going to be bigger so I was expecting a dinner salad and got something a bit smaller. The salad itself was tasty, the polenta croutons were good. They were truly just cubes of polenta, so soft and not crunchy like usual croutons, but I really liked them. We finished with the dessert variety plate. All of the desserts were a good size and not over or underwhelming. We really liked the blueberry-pistachio cake and the honey ice cream, I enjoyed the moonpie, but the ricotta tart was a bit too sour from the orange peels.

                          On Saturday we went to Soulard Market and had a great time. It is great to just people watch and see an old farmers market where there are so many people just walking around and doing their weekly grocery shopping. Granted not all of the produce was from local farmers, but we found some great goat cheese, drooled over some of the local meat and eggs and just enjoyed the atmosphere. Plus what other farmers market can you walk around with a beer or Bloody Mary in my case. We then drove over to South Grand and decided to have Ethiopian food at Meskerem. We had the vegetarian combination which is what we typically get at Ethiopian restaurants. It was really good and was a great price. We always love the lentil dishes and the collard dishes and Meskerem was no different. We also had some great iced coffee. We did visit Jay's International Market, which was underwhelming. It was fine and interesting, but the meat and seafood had a bit of a funky smell and the produce was a bit missing. We are just so used to the large Asian markets that we can find where we currently live, although someone did tell my SO that there is a large Asian Market somewhere else in the city we may have to find if we move to STL. We then drove around STL exploring as many neighborhood as we could, driving through The Hill, Dogtown, Frenchtown, CWE, more of Soulard and I am sure many other neighborhoods. We did try to go to Ted Drewes for an afternoon snack, but they were not open. So we drove up to the Old North neighborhood for Crown Candy Kitchen and some ice cream. We decided not to wait in line for a table and just get our ice cream to go. My SO got a Johnny Rabbit milkshake which was vanilla ice cream, nutmeg, bananas, nuts and whipped cream. It was really good, but way too big for one person she said. I had the chocolate banana milkshake and enjoyed it totally. There were bits of banana that did not get totally blended which were a great surprise as I drank my milkshake. I also did not finish mine after drinking it for quite a long time. Although, neither of us could finish out milkshakes, they were awesome and for the amount of ice cream, the price was just right. After driving around the whole city or at least what felt like most of it with even a foray into the suburbs to go to a Target for some things, we decided after much deliberation to just stay in the Dalmar area for dinner. We decided on Thai Gaiyang which is one of the numerous Thai restaurants owned by the same person.We statrted with the appetizer sampler plate. This consisted of veggie tempura of carrots, eggplant (our favorite of veggies), brocolli, green beans, baby corn and onions along with some crab rangoon, two different types of egg rolls and fried tofu. Needless to say there was a lot of food for an appetizer. For my entree I had the Ayutthaya (sp?), a soup with ground pork, fish balls, bean sprouts, green onion, cilantro and ground peanut. It was so huge, that I barely felt like I ate much of it, but it was so tasty I couldn't stop. I finally had to say I was done. My SO had the Yum Woonsen, a salad of glass noodle, ground pork, lemon juice, hot pepper, green onion, onion and cilantro. She really was not sure about this dish when it first came out, but the more she ate the more she enjoyed it.

                          Sunday morning we went down to Eclipse for breakfast before we left STL. This breakfast was vastly underwhelming. I had the make your own bagel with cream cheese and lox sandwich. It was a bagel toasted, some lox, some capers and some diced red onion all nicely presented. But then I had to put it together in to an open faced sandwich. It was fine, but I had better bagels and better lox on bagel sandwiches. My SO had a ham, cheddar and mushroom omelet. The omelet was dry and not much filling mostly just eggs, the breakfast potatoes were overcooked, hard and tasteless. The best part of the plate was the toast, which was good. The coffee was also good, but really we could have gone somewhere else and had good coffee and toast and not paid as much as we did for breakfast.

                          So, overall the meals we ate in STL were good, some really good and some disappointing, but that is typical for most cities. If/when we go down to STL again I would love to try some of the Vietnamese food on South Grand and try some of the Italian on The Hill and finally try one of the restaurants that we did not get to like Salt, Farmhaus, Taste or Five.

                          5 Replies
                          1. re: boxerdad

                            it's always so cool to hear a response.

                            yeah I love Jay Asia for dry goods and veg but the best Asian stores for fresh meat and seafood are up on Olive near Hanley (not far from the Loop at all)

                            1. re: hill food

                              Thank you so much for such a great response. I'm disappointed that you didn't enjoy your meal at the Moonrise...the place itself looks so cool and I have always wanted to stay there...both the Moonrise and Blueberry Hill are owned by Joe Edwards, the driving force behind the development of the Delmar Loop, and he is usually pretty on the ball, it seems that he needs to step up the food! (C'mon, Joe). I thought the Ted Drewes on Watson was open already, but I may be wrong...the one on South Grand has always been kind of a poor relation, a lot less crowded and open a lot less often. I do find myself wondering which bloody-mary toting couple you might have been! I was there. Scharf's strawberries were in...and I bought a LOT of 'em. (Anybody know if the strawberry crop survived the storms on Saturday night?)

                              1. re: tonifi

                                The moonrise hotel itself was really great, the rooms were really interesting and we enjoyed our stay. The one thing I did forget to mention was that I did have one of the cocktails at eclipse, the bacon and egg drink. It didn't really taste like bacon or eggs to me, but the egg whites were really interesting in the drink and it was good overall. None of dinner was bad, the steak had a peculiar texture and my SO wondered if it was wet aged. She said it changes the mouthfeel for her sometimes and the taste was good. She brought it home and continued to eat it for lunch one day, which she wouldn't do if it was really bad.

                                We did love Soulard. I was the only one drinking, not that you would figure out which couple based upon that but still... We made dinner Sunday night just from some produce and goat cheese from Soulard and tonight we are making some pasta with stuff from Soulard, so needless to say we really liked the market. I don't remember which Ted Drewes we went to,it was just what we could find on the GPS, but we were disappointed it was closed. The sign said it would open in the spring, so we thought maybe that meant May.

                                1. re: boxerdad

                                  yeah in many ways STL is a 'Serial Mom' town - no white shoes or linen pants before Memorial Day (that is changing) outdoor pools follow a strict Memorial to Labor day schedule etc. (whatta waste given that it can get hot in April and stay hot some years well into October.

                                  1. re: boxerdad

                                    That was the South Grand; the one on Chippewa has been open for a while. Sorry.