Corned Beef in the oven @ 215* for 8 hours....Very Tender
Years ago, while attending a restaurant trade show, I had the most amazing Corned Beef that was low temperature roasted for 12 hours. It was a whole packer brisket with point attached and possibly the best Corned Beef I have ever had. I have tried a few occasions to try and duplicate the results, however, I apparently never allowed enough time for the meat to roast to the appropriate target temperature to reach tender goodness. Usually my attempts were always made with flat cuts, which I do not prefer in general, but was the meat used for my tests because that was the cut available to me at this time of year at my local supermarket which coincides with the St Patrick's Day holiday. The cut is usually on sale for less than 2 bucks, so it's the option I use without having to test on a whole packer brisket...
In the past, I have found the meat must be soaked in water to remove some of the salt, otherwise it is too salty. for this test, i soaked for 24 hours, but I still found it to be too salty.....but the tenderness results was incredible... nary a hint of chew, but without it falling apart and very easy to make thin slices. The texture is not quite the same as steamed or boiled, i.e., slightly dry and stringy...but instead, still moist and soft with the texture of cold cut ham. I'm going to give this another shot or two by changing the water more frequently for 24 hours....and also for 48 hours as well to see which duration is best for my palate and post the reults. Until then, please have a look at the picture provided and see the results from last night's test. Nice pink color and pay attention the the fat melting down the face of the roast.
BTW...the picture was taken after the first few slices and after allowing the beef to rest for 30 minutes. The pre-cooked weight was 4 pounds and 4 ounces. It was simply roasted on a grill grate over a sheet pan.
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MGZ
May 7, 2013 05:51 AM
OK, Dean, I took the last point cut I had outta the fridge on Saturday. I washed it off, and rubbed it with a combination of ground pasilla chiles and turbinado sugar. Yesterday morning, around seven, I started the fire in the offset.
I barbecued the meat at around 250 using a fuel of nothing but aged oak and hardwood coals. I took it off at a few minutes after three. It was tender, smokey, spicy, sweet, and the best corned beef we've ever had. I took the leftovers to my buddy at a local deli to slice thin for tomorrow's ruebens. They "taxed" me a few slices.
Simple ideas, my friend, right?
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re: MGZ
For the record, great post and I 'm always very happy for your success.....but I'm also a bit jealous too.
You really amaze me with this simplistic approach and the outdoor grill/bbq. It sounds great and I really should give it a try.....my brother always suggests to me I should smoke more often, but I rarely do because I have this strange notion I must be around to attend to the meat and keep the coals, or fire going to maintain the heat properly. The older I get, the more forgetful I get as well, so I fear I will not pay it the proper attention needed.
The only question I have.....the meat wasn't too salty without soaking first?
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re: fourunder
MGZ
May 7, 2013 09:51 AM
It really wasn't salty. I rinsed it well and substituted the chile/sugar rub for what I might normally use. I think I'm gettin' close, my friend.
For what it's worth, to me, good barbecue is more about the process than the product (though the latter is very important to this 'hound). I enjoy chopping the wood. I enjoy havin' an excuse to stay home to "tend to the fire". I also, enjoy, drinking the beer that is required for the "process" to work.
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Best Ever using Pressure cooker... 4.5lb Corned beef... 1 hour in pressure cooker. turn off heat, leave on stove while pressure releases. Truly, after years of boiling, braising, etc. there is by far no better way than this easy, quick method. Also another hint i learned from other blogs was to use an electric knife to cut it. I felt like i was at Katz's Deli!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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fourunder, what's your go to method for regular brisket? Do you do that low and slow and dry too? Or do you braise? My braised brisket always seems dry to me....
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re: overthinkit
My braised brisket always seems dry to me....
o.
Sorry to say, but for the same reasons, brisket is not a cut I normally prepare. A couple of times a year, I try to smoke one outside and finish inside the home oven. I simply do not have the patience and experience to finish outside. As for your typical liquid braise, I've never been much of a fan, as like yourself, I find boiled beef very dry. and bland. Even at the best delicatessens, Brisket is never ordered.....I will say however, there's one local Korean restaurant that has a great tender brisker that is simply braised in water. I've never seen anyone slice as thin or get nearly as tender....and although I have tried, I have never been able to duplicate their results.
My approach to most cooking is similar as to what MGZ notes above about meat going on sale in the supermarket ...when I purchase retail (I have access to restaurant wholesale meats). I feel as a consumer, that's the best way to stretch my dollars and variety in my diet. My general approach when not purchasing meat on sale....and in the mood for a braised or roasted beef cut....is to see whats in the price range available to me at any given time and using $3.50 per pound as the budget number. While that excludes most supermarkets unless they have a sale on the items I prefer.....that means a trip to the local restaurant wholesale outlet. Along with brisket, i would have access to many beef cuts for $3.50/lb and under. For braised cuts, that means either Ox Tails or Short Ribs, both which I prefer over brisket and almost always cheaper....thus the reason why I rarely prepare brisket. Also, I find the brisket flat very dull. I'm a point guy myself(deckle), so unless I'm preparing a whole packer brisket, it's not getting done. If the short ribs or oxtail are not in the cards, then I'll go with a Chuck Roast or Seven Blade....both cuts I find more flavorful over brisket as well.
To answer your question more appropriately though, I did enjoy a brisket recipe by Alton Brown from one of his earlier shows. It's quite simple and clean up is a snap. Overall, I believe it cooks in 3.5 hours or less. I'll try to find the recipe and add it to my comments...I do not recall the temperature setting, but it's safe to assume it was 325-350* for the short time......250 if you want to go for a longer braise. The method called for preparing a triple thick ply of aluminum foil and making a pouch to house the brisket. This is very easy to do for a whole packer brisket if you have 18 inch wide aluminum foil...more difficult with 12 inch wide.. After placing a seasoned brisket on top of the foil, you add any spices or aromatics you prefer along with one 28 ounce can of Crushed or Diced Tomatoes. You simply fold over the foil and seal the edges, then place into a roasting pan to ensure you catch any liquids that may escape. Between the can of tomatoes and the moisture from the brisket, they combine to make a simple sauce without any effort. When the braise is done, you pick it up and hold it over a sauce pot. Then you cut off a corner and tilt it, pouring all the liquid into the pot. At that point, you can use a hand/stick blender and puree the tomatoes and adjust your seasonings or add a thickener. You could do this as a two day process....but I just allowed the meat to cool and I sliced away. Sometimes you get perfect slice and other times it will shred....when it's the later, I do not fret too much....it all tastes the same in the sauce and over a nice mound of mashed potatoes or creamy polenta.
* for a whole packer brisket, you may want to use extra tomatoes to create more sauce
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re: fourunder
Thanks! I'll try that. I'm glad to know someone of your caliber struggles with brisket too. It makes me feel better.
Can I also ask what internal temp you cook pork shoulder to? I made a big one last night, (the bo ssam recipe), cooked it at 215 until the temp got to 190, then let it rest an hour. Everyone raved about it, but I still though it was kind of dry in places. Did I overcook it?
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re: overthinkit
o,
I'm in the camp that believes the pork shoulder is near fool proof to roast at low temperatures and have only had one or two over the years that seemed dry. I attribute those two clunkers to be simply a bad piece of meat.....it happens.
I also like to roast between between 215-225*...but with pork shoulder, I never use a thermometer to check its progress. My method is to use the visual eye test to see if the meat is shrinking around the bone. I test by simply pulling and tugging at the meat.... I do the same with spare ribs. I know at that point, the collagen has melted and it's ready to come out of the oven......over 190*. For it to be overcooked at the low roasting temperature of 215, I would think it would have to reach 190+ degrees and you would have to continue roasting for over an hour in the oven.....but I doubt that is the case....My experience is with 8 pound shoulders, it takes a minimum 10 hours to pass my eye and tug test, but more often, it usually takes 11-12 hours....sometimes up to 14 hours for larger shoulders.
We are hardest on ourselves....but if the family tells you it was good...it probably was and we worried about nothing. I sure you did good. My recent concerns have been to create the crispiest skin possible. In most attempts, the Chinese method of using baking soda, scalding the skin and piercing does the job well in most cases.... I believe you have to get the skin soft and not simply roast it to crispy delectable goodness....and to do that the moisture is the key...When crispy pig is done on a spit, many times a liquid or oil is is used to baste. I'm generally too lazy to bother with covering during the stall phase, but I've been experimenting with foil and plastic wrap to cover the pork shoulder for the first 2-2-5 hours of the roast to soften the skin before piercing. It definitely makes it easier and it gets the skin crispy in the end , especially with a quick 20-30 second stints under the broiler.
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MGZ
Mar 18, 2012 02:47 AM
Well, fourunder, I've watched this thread for a few days now. With the cheap corned beef briskets everywhere, I thought I'd take one of your experiments outside again. So, though I may be a day late, I'm going to try and make some barbecued corned beef today. Thanks for the inspiration, as well as the tip on soaking, and wish me luck.
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re: MGZ
MGZ. I'm jealous of your plans...I wish I had the experience to be a proper Barbecue enthusiast. I love watching Steven Raichlen and Barbecue University. I've always wanted to try (woodburner's) Pastrami on the grill as well.... Good Luck today.
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re: fourunder
MGZ
Mar 19, 2012 02:49 AM
I took the 3 pound flat from the soaking water, patted it dry, and rubbed it with some turbinado sugar and hot Hungarian paprika. I used a combination of oak, maple, and cherry woods, as well as lump coals, to cook the meat for almost 8 hours. The temperature hovered between 200 and 250 degrees throughout the day. For the last 3 hours of the cook, I mopped the meat with a brandy-chile-butter sauce.
The result was a tender brisket, sweet and a bit spicy with a fatty bit of bark. I look forward to doing it again. Thanks again for triggering the thought.
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re: MGZ
Ahhh...you're killing me. Last week I purchased a 10 pound Packer at The Restaurant Depot, 2.29/lb because i had a hankering for some Corned Beef. I tried braising in the oven at 200.....14 hours later, the meat was still not fork tender, so increased the temperature to 250 for a couple of hours. Not bad, but not great. It still sliced without falling apart.
I'm torn between the oven and stove top....I enjoy both. I'm expecting the stores to have some sales in the weekly circulars, for under two bucks in the coming weeks leading up to St Paddy's Day. I'll have to stock up and play some more, but I've noticed some of the brands for point cuts have Pectin added....it like cheating to get it tender, but it alters the texture a little to soft for my tastes.
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re: fourunder
MGZ
Mar 5, 2013 06:09 AM
Well, for my Mom's birthday (which is a week or so after her sister's), I'm having a little dinner party for some of her family. Since it's on the Seventeenth, I figured I'd bust out my barbecued corned beef. My wife was thrilled.
I told Mom what I had in mind, but she seemed to only hear "corned beef and cabbage" the way she had been eatin' and makin' it for oh so many years. I got a call the next day. "Um, you're Aunt and I just sorta thought, um, I mean, we kinda just don't know if you should waste your cooking on corned beef and cabbage. . . . If that's OK?" Though flattered, I found it pretty damned funny.
So, now, my conundrum. Do I do some funky barbecue inspired riff using the offset to do the CB? Maybe grilled cabbage slaw? A potato they would not expect? Maybe throw in some U-10 shrimp as an appetizer to make the old girls think it's special? Funny indeed!
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re: MGZ
Stopped by ShopRite last night and found they had a sale on Corned Beef for $1.99/lb...Flat Cut only, no points. ..Not my preferred choice but picked up two separate brands to compare anyway. One, O'Brien's, the other O'Reilly's.
* Simmered both for two hours
* Transferred to a Grill Grate over a Hotel Pan/Roasting Pan
* Three hours at 200*
* Rested for 30 minutes inside the oven.The results were tender and moist...very easy to handle and slice without fear of the meat falling apart. The texture of the meat was just like well prepared BBQ Beef Brisket where you could stretch a sliced piece of meat, but it would not pull apart.. the process was very simple. I recommend you give it a try for your 2013 St. Paddy's Day Dinner.
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re: fourunder
MGZ
Mar 17, 2013 04:33 AM
Well, I decided to revisit the corned beef on the offset as the foundation for dinner. I rinsed the meat well and then applied a standard rub and some bourbon for an overnight marinade. I put it on at around seven this am and will use mostly oak and cherry for my fuel.
I'm still workin' on the rest of the menu. I'm fascinated with the idea of grilling cabbage wedges and serving the with a blue cheese dressing, but am afraid that it might be pushing things too far for the guests of honor. My wife's into the idea of my tryin' it though.
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re: fourunder
MGZ
Mar 18, 2013 05:34 AM
I lamed out on the cabbage and simply braised it with apples and cider. Good enough, I s'pose. I'm gonna use what's leftover to make a rueben with the barbecued corned beef (which I thought was special). Gotta get some good Swiss cheese and a loaf of corn rye today.
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re: fourunder
Heidi cooks and bakes
Mar 19, 2013 01:06 PM
Like you, I don't enjoy the flat cuts. Surpisingly, I found point cuts (O'Reilly's) at the Manasquan Acme! Very juicy!
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re: fourunder
Have you ever heard about soaking very salty meats in milk?something I learned from my mother has always worked for me,but alas I forgot to do so this time.,so I got very salty corned beef but it was such a good piece of corned beef that I sliced it and soaked it in milk overnight,drained it and heated it up so now is edible.
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Shame on me....I forgot I did a similar test last year.
My 2011 test results....slightly different. As Scubadoo97 opines in one of the other threads....
Every piece of meat is different.
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re: fourunder
Nothing is ever easy. Today I did my second test for a baked corned beef roast with mixed results. I deliberately purchased the exact same brand (O'Briens) to see if I could duplicate another tender result. To recap, the first roast was excellent, but a wee bit salty after one day of soaking without changing the water. ..This second test soaked for a total of 40 hours, with the water bath changed every 3-4 hours during my awake hours.
The CB was 4.5 pounds. After reading many research/reviews, the general consensus was the CB had to reach a minimum internal temperature of 145*, but 160* was best, so that was my target temperature. The first roast was roasted @ 215* and pulled at 150*. For this roast, I chose to use 225* until done. The meat was placed into the oven at 9:30 AM, and did not hit 160* until 12 hours later at 9:30 PM. In the middle at 4 PM, the meat reached 144* and basically stalled for 3 hours time without the needle moving. In retrospect, I probably should have checked the roast visually to see how it was progressing at the 8 hour mark, and take a slice off the roast to check its tenderness and color. In the end in allowing it to reach 160* , I found the roast had a completely darker Mahogany color as opposed to the reddish one done earlier. There was also significant shrinkage. The meat itself also had a very pronounced dry outer layer, although the interior was still moist.
The results of this test were inconclusive for the perfect method....other than to say the extra 12 hours and changing the water frequently definitely removes much of the salt. This specific piece of meat did not turn out as tender, at 1/4 inch slices, the meat had a little fight and chew to it.....but slicing thin, the meat was definitely acceptable for an enjoyable sandwich.
What I can definitely conclude is if you like a little chew as opposed to falling apart meat.......baking is the way to go. Also, every piece of meat is definitely different.
Personally, given a perfect CB braised or baked....I like the flavor and texture of the braised one better. I intend to do one more test in a few days.....a combination of braising for some time and finishing by baking in the oven....a recipe from another thread a poster gave, which was her Mom's or Grandma's.
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re: fourunder
My final two tests for this years 2012 St. Paddy's Day. The first one was braised on the stove top for 3.5 hours till for tender....and it came out perfectly. The second was based on the family recipe of a fellow member, Valerie.
The Corned Beef was soaked for 24 hours to remove some of the slat....water changed twice. Two Flat Cuts by a company called O'Reilly's purchased at the local supermarket, each weighing about 5 pounds. Both pieces of meat started out in the same pot for the first 2.5 hours for a simple braise. One was then removed and put into a glaze of Dijon Mustard and Brown sugar....then onto a rack into a 250* oven for an additional hour. No foil wrap or pouch. The meat was removed at 170*. The meat was tender with a slight chew and sliced very easily. I can see why many like the oven method....this particular recipe had the sweet, salty and savory tastes complimenting each other. A nice change of paste for a dinner plate.....but for sandwiches, I still prefer the braised method for a more tender bite and chew.
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re: fourunder
Based on poster Valerie's recipe.....braised for 2.5 hours, then removed from the water and placed into a glaze mixture made with Dijon Mustard, Brown sugar The meat was sweet, salty and savory which complimented each other very well. The meat was rested for 30 minutes before slicing. There was two sections of meat separated by a fat layer. The first four pictures reflect the whole roast , separated and slices...less than a quarter inch thick. The last for pictures are of the to cap. Please note the cap is at most an inch thick at its fattest part and the slices you see are less than an 1/8th inch thick . They were made with the paring knife you see in the picture to give you an idea of how easy this was to slice. This recipe is recommended.
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gingershelley
Mar 9, 2012 02:33 PM
Fourunder - That looks SO delicious! I am going to use that for my method this year. I always make a couple of corned beef briskets this time of year as it is so inexpensive. I too have not been fully satisfied with braised; sometimes the texture is a little wierd. Yours looks perfect:)
Bring on the Horseradish - corned beef, here I come!
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re: gingershelley
FYI....I did use a digital probe thermometer for this this test. You can see the whole in the slice of corned beef. While I set it for 155*, it never hit the mark. After the 8 hours, it registered 150*....rather than wait to see how much longer it had to go, .....instead, I sliced of a small piece on the corner and it was very tender, so I just pulled it from the oven , rested for 30 minutes and made a nice sandwich.....
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dave_c
Mar 9, 2012 12:42 PM
Look delicious... I've been kicking around the idea of slow roasting a couple briskets. I'm hosting a party for 15 ppl. My crock pot and dutch oven isn't large enough for two briskets.
Do you bake covered and with liquid? Or uncovered with no liquid? Do you use the pickling spices?
In regards to saltiness, I found that saltiness varies from brand to brand.
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re: dave_c
Do you bake covered and with liquid?.....No
Or uncovered with no liquid?.....Yes
Do you use the pickling spices?.....No
In general, while I enjoy a nicely steamed corned beef for it's melt in your mouth taste,...the soft texture of this particular test was different....much more moist and softer in mouth feel. . My only problem with braising is that the results are often mixed...more often than not, too dry for my tastes. This definitely solves that problem. If you can enjoy the different texture from boiled...It's definitely a worthy option if you have the time to slow roast......or a the very least, worthy of a try to see if you would like it..
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re: fourunder
hotoynoodle
Mar 9, 2012 08:46 PM
ha! tis the season. was just thinking i'd make one this week, but i have always braised, long and slow. i have never had dryness issues though. to what do you attribute that?
the roasting method seems great to try, and something that can be left overnight while i snooze away and dream of the emerald isle, lol.
eta: i see your "braise" was in a slow-cooker, which i never use. my b/f occasionally does and i am never pleased with the results. always too dry.
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re: hotoynoodle
The only Corned Beef braise I ever did in the slow cooker was last years (2011) test. I usually braise on the stove top ...I find slow cooker can run hotter at times and suspect that's why meat tastes drier than opposed to a slow simmer on the stove top or in the oven for braising. I get similar results whenever I use pork or chuck roast for ragout or pot roast.
With regards to...
i have never had dryness issues though. to what do you attribute that?
I suspect your timing is better than mine....
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re: fourunder
hotoynoodle
Mar 9, 2012 09:25 PM
my distrust of slow-cookers is that i can't really know what the ongoing cooking temp is and i can't really see what is going on, since you should leave it "sealed" so to speak.
so, depending on the meat, my long, slow braises, either on the stovetop or in the oven, can sometimes take way more hours than i'd planned. it just is what it is and i'd rather err on the side of more than less. i never plan on same-day braise for dinner, lol.
the slow-roasting sounds great and i will definitely give that a go and report back.
do you have a preference for gray or red corned beef?
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re: hotoynoodle
Unfortunately for me, since I have left the working at the Country Club/Catering Facility a decade ago, I have not had any Gray Corned Beef....as it not readily available in my area. At the CC we used to brine our own deckles from the Prime Rib Roasts.....that was the ultimate for me.
Now, even at the restaurant supply house I have access to only sells the red corned beef. My understanding is outside of New England...it very hard to find Gray CB unless you get it from a butcher who brines his own.
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re: fourunder
hotoynoodle
Mar 9, 2012 09:48 PM
i am in boston and have made both. b/f prefers the red. hmmmmmm.
i bet boston brisket ships!
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