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Boning knife -- a necessity for keeping other knives sharp?

Chemicalkinetics Mar 5, 2012 07:57 AM

I am not sure if this should be in the Cookware section or the General section.

I have a Dexter Russell boning knife and have been using it for debone chicken (mostly). I understand that I can use a chef's knife to debone my chicken, and many knife experts have expressed similar statements including using their gyuto and santoku to do the same.

However, here is my situation. Most of my other knives are fairly sharp with no trouble of push cutting paper or shaving hair. They would likely to take a hit on their edges after deboning a chicken, which means I have to sharpen them on a more frequent basis. So, yes, I can debone with any of my knives, but a dedicated knivfe to debone should preserve the edges of the other knives, and therefore save time.

I am curious how many of us have a dedicated knife (could be any knife) for deboning meat, and how many of us simply use our main knife for deboning. Thanks.

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  1. TeRReT RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 5, 2012 08:07 AM

    for some reason i use a chef knife to debone and carve a cooked turkey, maybe because its large, i have often used a chef knife for deboning a chicken at home as well, despite having a boning knife, but at work i almost always use a boning knife. But i use a crap nella which isn't very sharp, but thats because i don't ever take my boning knife to work. Indeed my own boning knife hasn't been used since school. Same with the 12 inch chef knife. And when i say I debone with my chef knife i mean my henckel 10 inch, so its maybe a bit of a meatier blade then some of your shavers

    While i have deboned with my santoku, its not ideal, not having much of a tip and all.

    2 Replies
    1. re: TeRReT
      Chemicalkinetics RE: TeRReT Mar 5, 2012 08:39 AM

      TeRReT,

      Thanks. Yes, I understand you debone your chicken (or whatever) with a 10" Henckels Chef's knife, but am I correct that same knife for your daily work? In other words, you use a dedicated knife for deboning, right? Or is that 10" Henckels Chef's also used an everyday knife?

      1. re: Chemicalkinetics
        TeRReT RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 5, 2012 04:34 PM

        back in the day when i did more butchery i would use my boning knife. When i made the switch from 12 inch to 10 inch chef knife i started to use it more, while still using it for everything else. This was back when I maintained my knives but didn't have any sharpening system and just honed them often. Now that I have a completely different set of knives, I'd likely still use it over my boning knife, especially since my boning knife is packed away in my parents basement. At my last restaurant I used the nella boner because at that time all I had at work was a santoku and japanese utility. I would rather not use any of my Japanese or very sharp knives for anything like that anymore. Though I generally don't have to cut through bone with the techniques used either, but still.

    2. g
      GH1618 RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 5, 2012 08:48 AM

      I have a Russell boning knife, but it's a relatively new addition. I prefer it to my Russell chef's knife as much for its mechanical properties as for reducing wear on my chef's knife. It just seems better suited to the purpose. The thickness of the spine is about the same on the two knives, but because the boning knife has a shallower depth, it is stiffer, with a sturdier edge. It is also shorter, so altogether is easier to manipulate than my chef's knife, in my opinion. Then, any knife used as an alternative to the chef's knife will help preserve its edge. So I can make the chef's knife very sharp, and keep it sharp longer, and use it more safely, by restricting its use to the purposes for which it is most suited.

      I know just about everything can be done with the chef's knife, but a lot of what professional cooks do is for economy of time and effort. Keeping track of several knives is a distraction, and there are others in the kitchen doing prep anyway, so they can get by with one.

      When I actually worked in a professional kitchen many years ago, the chef actually did have a second knife for boning chicken, since boneless chicken was one of his specialties. But it was a butcher knife, not a boning knife. He used it like a cleaver, using the weight of the knife instead of the sharpness of the blade or force of the arm to separate the joint. This worked because he had dead aim after many years of practice. Then he used his chef's knife to finish the job.

      1. cannibal RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 5, 2012 09:39 AM

        I use my 5" utility knife to break down a chicken. I cut through the joints though, rather than through the bone. Not sure which method you use.
        I like the agility with a shorter knife. I have used a gyuto in the past but still prefer the 5" utility.
        Oh, to answer your question, i do find using the utility knife to debone keeps my other knives sharper.

        2 Replies
        1. re: cannibal
          Chemicalkinetics RE: cannibal Mar 5, 2012 10:06 AM

          "rather than through the bone. Not sure which method you use."

          I usually break the joints by my bare hands and have the knife cut through the meat, but sometime I do use it to cut through the joints. The knife is also used to scrap meat off the bones especially when I debone the chicken thighs and legs. So there are definitely contacts with bones.

          1. re: Chemicalkinetics
            cannibal RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 5, 2012 10:11 AM

            Ah that makes sense now :)
            I do it the same way you do, but when i scrape the meat I use the back of the knife.
            The larger angle on the spine seems to "grab" less on the bone and I get the meat off easier. When i've used a gyuto to break down a chicken it's a little more difficult to use the back of the larger knife for me, not sure why though, it just felt a little more awkward. I do have smaller hands, that might have something to do with it.

        2. cowboyardee RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 5, 2012 05:09 PM

          Chem, I'm sure you've seen me mention my honesuki before. I can and have used a gyuto to break down chicken and simple meat butchery, but I prefer the honesuki.

          It does indeed save the edge on my other knives, which is probably the main reason I bought it originally. But it has some other advantages too. The tip is very narrow but also very stiff and sturdy, which means I can get in a joint easily and then use a twisting or prying motion without fear. The heel can chop through surprisingly thick bones without any real damage. It's very precise and very sturdy at the same time, which is pretty ideal for me.

          58 Replies
          1. re: cowboyardee
            TeRReT RE: cowboyardee Mar 5, 2012 05:21 PM

            which is why its on the list of knives i want and am dangerously close to buying everytime i pass a knife store :P

            1. re: cowboyardee
              Chemicalkinetics RE: cowboyardee Mar 5, 2012 06:20 PM

              :) Thanks cowboy. If I am going to get another knife, then maybe I should really consider a honesuki. I know it is very good at deboning chicken. Have you use it for other usages? Maybe filet a fish? Thanks.

              1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                cowboyardee RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 5, 2012 06:33 PM

                I also use it for boning out pork shoulder - it's good for meat, but I just don't do that much meat butchery.

                As for fish, it's not especially great at skinning fillets. But it's good at all other filleting cuts for fish that are small to medium sized. I doubt it would be much good on fish that are especially big, but I haven't tried.

                When I take my knife kit somewhere (maybe for a competition or for vacation), it's one of the three knives that's always included, if that gives you an idea of how much I like and value it. That said, I'm sure it's not for everybody.

                1. re: cowboyardee
                  Chemicalkinetics RE: cowboyardee Mar 5, 2012 06:39 PM

                  "it's one of the three knives that's always included"

                  Wow.

                  1. re: cowboyardee
                    Chemicalkinetics RE: cowboyardee Mar 5, 2012 10:32 PM

                    By the way, what is the brand of your honesuki?

                    1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                      cowboyardee RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 6, 2012 04:17 AM

                      I actually have a tojiro DP honesuki. The surprising thing is you might expect a tojiro to be too chippy to make a good honesuki, but with the thick edge chipping hasn't been a problem at all, even when cutting through chicken backs and such.

                      1. re: cowboyardee
                        Chemicalkinetics RE: cowboyardee Mar 6, 2012 06:50 AM

                        Thanks. I am looking a few honesuki now, including Moritaka Supreme honesuki and JCK KAGAYAKI VG-10 honesuki.

                        http://www.chefknivestogo.com/moho15....
                        http://japanesechefsknife.com/images/...

                        Anyway, did you get a chance to visit Japanesechefsknife website. It is finally trying to clean up the browse ability.

                        1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                          petek RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 6, 2012 11:21 AM

                          "Thanks. I am looking a few honesuki now, including Moritaka Supreme honesuki and JCK KAGAYAKI VG-10 honesuki"

                          I'll vouch for the Moritaka honesuki!! Great little knife,very robust,cool looking,the perfect boner(that's what she said :-D ) I also like my Kasumi semi flexy boning knife,different profile(real slim and pointy,great for silver skin),and it's VG-10 so it can take a beating.
                          The JCK honesuki is a great price though...

                          1. re: petek
                            Chemicalkinetics RE: petek Mar 6, 2012 11:37 AM

                            "that's what she said :-D"

                            Is that from the "Office" TV show?

                            Yeah, I am really debating between the JCK and the Moritaka. Usually, I think the Moritaka knife having too "short" or too "narrow" of a blade, but its Honesuki looks perfect too me.

                            1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                              Chemicalkinetics RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 6, 2012 08:07 PM

                              Petek,

                              I follow up question because I am really leaning to the Moritaka honesuki. Surely people are concern about the wavy edge or uneven grind, but that is not something we can predict. I like to ask you something more predictable. Moritaka knives are known to be relatively thin compared to other brands. Do you think the honesuki to be too thin for chicken or not really?

                              I think I am going to get the aogemi super (supreme) series with an octagonal handle.

                              The KAGAYAKI VG-10 honesuki is indeed very tempering too. Not only the price is very good, but it is a solid VG-10 knife, not a cladded VG-10, and I have not had a solid VG-10 knife.

                              1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                petek RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 7, 2012 12:15 PM

                                "I follow up question because I am really leaning to the Moritaka honesuki."
                                Hey Chem.
                                My Moritaka honesuki has an almost perfectly flat grind(with just the slightest upward curve near the tip),not wavy or uneven at all.Like I said, it's a very robust knife with some good weight(127 grams vs 146 grams for my Kono HD) for such a small knife.The balance point is right at the choil.I break down tons of chicken and racks of lamb at work with no chipping whatsoever.
                                I highly recommend this knife as a dedicated boner..
                                So I guess you have to decide between a carbon or VG-10..tough choice..

                                I got the aogomi #2 blue,a bit cheaper than the supreme,but harder to find.

                                1. re: petek
                                  Chemicalkinetics RE: petek Mar 7, 2012 12:33 PM

                                  Chefknivestogo offers both the Aogami#2 and Aogami Super. I figure I don't have a Aogami Super, so I should give it a try. On the other hand, Aogami#2 is supposed to be tougher, which should be better as a boning knife.

                                  1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                    Chemicalkinetics RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 7, 2012 12:43 PM

                                    I take that back. Chefknivestogo does not offer Moritaka Aogami#2 honesuki.

                                    1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                      cowboyardee RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 7, 2012 12:43 PM

                                      "On the other hand, Aogami#2 is supposed to be tougher, which should be better as a boning knife."
                                      ________
                                      The difference is pretty muted in the first place - my Hiromoto has never had chip problems, though I do notice a slight improvement in edge retention over my knives in blue #2. Also minor differences in how it sharpens and how it takes a patina. But overall they're quite similar - moreso IMO than blue #2 and white #2.

                                      Anyway, the grind of the honesuki makes it pretty hard to chip. I bought one in vg10 - at the time I didn't know any better. But now, I'd never believe how resistant to chipping that steel is in a honesuki grind if I hadn't experienced it first hand. Though I guess I can't say for certain that Tojiro DP doesn't do something different with their honesuki steel than their gyuto.

                                      BTW - I could be wrong, but my guess is that the geometry of a honesuki would make it a lot less likely that you would run into any of the alleged grind problems in a Moritaka.

                                      1. re: cowboyardee
                                        petek RE: cowboyardee Mar 7, 2012 01:51 PM

                                        "but my guess is that the geometry of a honesuki would make it a lot less likely that you would run into any of the alleged grind problems in a Moritaka."

                                        +1

                                        1. re: petek
                                          Chemicalkinetics RE: petek Mar 7, 2012 01:53 PM

                                          Chicken or the egg.

                                          Is it because of the geometry of a honesuki makes it less likely to have uneven grind? Or is it that uneven grind is less of a problem for a honesuki geometry?

                                          1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                            petek RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 7, 2012 02:04 PM

                                            Is it because of the geometry of a honesuki makes it less likely to have uneven grind? Or is it that uneven grind is less of a problem for a honesuki geometry?

                                            6 of 1 half dozen of the other.. :-D

                                            The Moritaka honesuki is a thick knife,this ain't no laser,.Very thick spine,but tapers nicely down to the edge and the tip.
                                            Maybe that has something to do with it?

                                            1. re: petek
                                              Chemicalkinetics RE: petek Mar 7, 2012 02:09 PM

                                              :D

                                              Very funny.

                                            2. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                              cowboyardee RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 7, 2012 02:11 PM

                                              My assumption was because it has a comparatively thick edge grind in the first place, and we can see from the pic that it seems the entire edge and secondary bevel is made of carbon steel. The core steel must be a pretty thick hunk. Therefore a little waviness of the grind is highly unlikely to interfere with the edge geometry significantly as you sharpen the knife and the edge recedes with sharpenings/use. Basically, the more obtuse your edge is and the thicker your core steel, the less a wavy grind should matter, in theory at least.

                                              Again, I could be wrong though.

                                        2. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                          petek RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 7, 2012 12:44 PM

                                          hmm.. I only see the honesuki Ao super on CKTG's website,so that might make your choice much easier :).
                                          I think the Ao #2 blue would be a better choice for a boning knife,if it is indeed tougher.
                                          Ao #2 sharpens up like a mofo so no worries there.

                                          1. re: petek
                                            Chemicalkinetics RE: petek Mar 7, 2012 12:51 PM

                                            cowboy and petek,

                                            Thanks for the response. I just placed an order for the Moritaka Agoami Super honesuki and a Benton 220 grit stone. :)

                                            1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                              cowboyardee RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 7, 2012 12:53 PM

                                              Awesome. Let us know how you like em. Both are very interesting purchases.

                                              1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                petek RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 7, 2012 01:53 PM

                                                Nice!! I think you'll be pleasantly surprised!
                                                Enjoy!

                                                1. re: petek
                                                  Chemicalkinetics RE: petek Mar 13, 2012 07:28 PM

                                                  cowboy and petek,

                                                  Both my Benton 220 grit stone and Moritaka have arrived today. I have not used either, but I am so excited that I want to share what I saw to you two (and Dave and others). The Moritaka knife looks very attractive out of the box. Much prettier than my Watanabe knife. I ran my finger along the grind above the edge. It does not appear to have any super high or low points. The tip and the heel appear to be lower (thinner) than the middle, but it is not "wavy" -- as in up, down, up, down. So my guess is that the grind is ok. However, the factory edge is poor. It can slice paper, but poorly so. It definitely cannot push cut paper. This is opposite from Watanabe knife. The out-of-the-box edge on my Watanabe was nearly perfect.

                                                  The Benton 220 is one odd looking stone. It has many holes, like swiss cheese with holes.

                                                  1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                    petek RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 13, 2012 07:46 PM

                                                    "Both my Benton 220 grit stone and Moritaka have arrived today"

                                                    Good news Chem! We need some pics and a review after you've had time to "play with them"
                                                    I'm not familiar with Benton stones.Where did you purchase it?

                                                    As a side note, I picked up a Konosuke Swedish SS 150mm petty today.
                                                    Pics and review to follow....

                                                    1. re: petek
                                                      Chemicalkinetics RE: petek Mar 13, 2012 07:47 PM

                                                      "I'm not familiar with Benton stones.Where did you purchase it?"

                                                      Chefknivestogo from Mark.

                                                      http://www.chefknivestogo.com/be220gr...

                                                      If you click on the photo in close up, then you will also see those large holes.

                                                      "I picked up a Konosuke Swedish SS 150mm petty today."

                                                      Cool. For your professional kitchen work, right? (in other words, not for home use)

                                                      1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                        petek RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 13, 2012 07:57 PM

                                                        Are you using the Beston for stone flattening or for some heavy duty re profiling jobs?
                                                        The Kono is for both work and home,might as well right? :D

                                                        1. re: petek
                                                          Chemicalkinetics RE: petek Mar 13, 2012 08:20 PM

                                                          "Are you using the Beston for stone flattening or for some heavy duty re profiling jobs?"

                                                          Remember that I was looking for a stone for reprofiling? I am hoping this will fit the bill. I will see. I don't have any foreseeable reprofiling work though. The problem of DMT diamond stones is that the finished edge may be chippy.

                                                          "The Kono is for both work and home,might as well right?"

                                                          A lot of carrying back and forth. :)

                                                          1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                            petek RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 13, 2012 08:28 PM

                                                            "A lot of carrying back and forth"

                                                            Not really.4 or 5 knives + some other tools in my kit/roll stuffed into my rucksack.
                                                            Easy peasy...

                                                            You can use the Beston for flattening in the meantime.

                                                    2. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                      d
                                                      Dave5440 RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 14, 2012 07:23 PM

                                                      Great looking knife chem!!!Did you get the 150mm?, I think a honesuki will be my next buy. Looking forward to pics

                                                      1. re: Dave5440
                                                        Chemicalkinetics RE: Dave5440 Mar 14, 2012 07:41 PM

                                                        Hi Dave,

                                                        It is one good looking knife. Really. The package box, the packing, the handle, the kurouchi finish on the blade. They are all beautiful. The first photo is the package. The second photo is the infamous balance shoot because we know Master Eiron now requires everyone to do this. :) Seriously, the second photo shows the beautiful octagonal handle and the overall knife profile. The third photo is the close up shot of the engraved blade and the edge.

                                                        What is so interesting is that this knife has very good fit, but horrible factory edge. It actually has one of the worse out-of-the-box edge among knives of >$50. I haven't sharpened it yet, but I assume an Aogami Super steel should able to take on a great edge. It is just the factory did not do a good job for sharpening.

                                                        This is almost opposite from our experience with Watanabe knife. The Watanabe nakiri knife I had has very average work on the handle, and unimpressive package, unmemorable engraving. However, the out-of-the-box edge on my Watanabe nakiri is definitely the best among all of my knife -- way better than Wusthof, Henckels, better than Shun and Tojiro. It was just great. The grinding on the Watanabe is also great. No sign of overgrinding what so ever.

                                                        Yes, it is 150 mm.

                                                         
                                                         
                                                         
                                                        1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                          petek RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 15, 2012 05:57 AM

                                                          "What is so interesting is that this knife has very good fit, but horrible factory edge"

                                                          That sucks,but a lot of knives come with poor to average OOTB edges.Easy fix right doctore?
                                                          She's a beaut!!

                                                          1. re: petek
                                                            Chemicalkinetics RE: petek Mar 16, 2012 07:46 PM

                                                            Pete and others,

                                                            Do you put a 20 degree edge angle (40 inclusive angle) on your honesuki? Afterall, it is a knife for deboning. Thanks.

                                                            1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                              cowboyardee RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 16, 2012 09:38 PM

                                                              I followed the factory geometry of my honesuki, probably with a little change over time. That wound up being someting like 15 degrees for the back side of the knife and 25+ for the front side. I'm guessing at those angles, if that's not obvious.

                                                              What's the factory edge on the moritaka set to, roughly?

                                                              1. re: cowboyardee
                                                                Chemicalkinetics RE: cowboyardee Mar 16, 2012 10:05 PM

                                                                I think it was 20-25 degree. The visual bevel was thin and narrow, but I just started to sharpen ahead. I think it is 15 degree now -- noticeably wider now. I am going to put a 20 degree microbevel.

                                                                Unfortunately, I still have chicken and chicken stock in my freezer. So I am not sure how I will get to test this knife. :P

                                                                1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                                  TeRReT RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 16, 2012 10:11 PM

                                                                  mail it to me, and i will buy a chicken and test it for you! I won't send it back though, that's the only caveat.

                                                                  1. re: TeRReT
                                                                    Chemicalkinetics RE: TeRReT Mar 16, 2012 10:26 PM

                                                                    Don't you already have a honesuki (from your avatar/icon)? :)

                                                                    1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                                      TeRReT RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 16, 2012 10:31 PM

                                                                      its not completely one, just probably a similar size, but its not quite the same shape, and don't change the subject

                                                                      I may not be able to make my knife purchase now, my fiancee things we should save money :P we will see!

                                                                2. re: cowboyardee
                                                                  petek RE: cowboyardee Mar 17, 2012 06:14 AM

                                                                  "I followed the factory geometry of my honesuki, probably with a little change over time. That wound up being someting like 15 degrees "
                                                                  +1

                                                                  1. re: cowboyardee
                                                                    Chemicalkinetics RE: cowboyardee Mar 18, 2012 07:21 PM

                                                                    Cowboy, Petek and others,

                                                                    One more following question. I know you guys have stated that the honesuki is an excellent chicken boning knife. However, can the honesuki totally replace my regular Dexter-Russell boning knife? In other words, is there any issue of using the honesuki to debone other meats beside chicken? Like pork or lamb or fish...ect?

                                                                    1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                                      petek RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 18, 2012 09:01 PM

                                                                      I wouldn't necessarily say it could or should replace your DR boner.I use both my honesuki and semi flexy boner on a regular basis.They're both great for breaking down chicken,pork,racks of lamb cleaning tenderloins and prime ribs.
                                                                      I don't debone a lot of whole fish(we get it already filleted) but because the honesuki is kinda short I'm not so sure if it'll do such a great job for that particular task.
                                                                      The more you use the honesuki,the better you'll be able to asses what tasks she's good at doing.

                                                                      1. re: petek
                                                                        Chemicalkinetics RE: petek Mar 18, 2012 09:21 PM

                                                                        I don't like to keep more knives than I need to because I feel it can be such a waste to store/hide good knives. Recently, I gave away my Tanaka Kurouchi Nakiri because I noticed it has been sitting in my drawer for more than a few months. I love that knife though. It has taught me much about knife sharpening since its factory edge was slightly "wavy" and I had to learn to accommodate the unevenly ground edge. It also was the very first knife which completely convinced me of the power of "Aogami steel" -- easy to sharpen, take on a great edge, hold on this great edge, and more rust resistance than shirogami (white paper steel).

                                                                        Anyway, I thought if the honesuki can replace my boning knife, then I should also retire it and give it to a friend. However, like you said, I probably won't know until a few months down the road. Thanks.

                                                                        1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                                          petek RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 18, 2012 09:28 PM

                                                                          Don't give away,keep it you never know when she'll come in handy..
                                                                          I rarely use mt Moritaka gyuto now that I have my HD,but I'm gonna keep her for posterity's sake :D

                                                              2. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                                cannibal RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 15, 2012 06:59 AM

                                                                Good looking knife Chem! I really like the obligatory balance shot too, really shows off the handle and the thickness of the metal. The product-shot type pictures I've seen of this knife online really don't do it justice, that is truly a nice looking blade.

                                                                The blade looks quite thick at the spine. I'm still wanting to entertain the idea of using this knife also as a utility knife so I can justify the expense :)
                                                                The profile looks to have a slight curve along the edge, not sure if it's a camera effect or if the edge has a radius to it.

                                                                Congratulations on the new addition to the family!

                                                                1. re: cannibal
                                                                  Chemicalkinetics RE: cannibal Mar 15, 2012 09:37 AM

                                                                  Yeah, it is ever slightly curved. No, it is not a camera effect.

                                                        2. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                          TeRReT RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 10, 2012 12:43 AM

                                                          honesuki may be my next knife as well. Though I say that about every knife don't I. I am planning to buy my next knife in 6 months or so. I can't before then, especially since I am not yet working oi. But I am planning a trip to Osaka and Sakai and will visit Kyoto as well. I will visit all the big knife names including Shigeharu, Kikuichi, Aritsugu, Konosuke and Takayuki. I will fine whatever feels best and impresses me the most and it will be the first wedding gift to myself :P

                                                          It won't be a santoku, it won't be a utility, it could be anything else though :P

                                                          1. re: TeRReT
                                                            Chemicalkinetics RE: TeRReT Mar 10, 2012 07:26 AM

                                                            "I will visit all the big knife names including Shigeharu, Kikuichi, Aritsugu, Konosuke and Takayuki."

                                                            Do you mean that you want to visit the actual places where they made their knives?

                                                            "I will fine whatever feels best and impresses me the most and it will be the first wedding gift to myself "

                                                            Yeah! :)

                                                            1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                              TeRReT RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 10, 2012 07:33 AM

                                                              i would love to visit where they make them and will try to but that may or may not be possible, hopefully a couple of them, but at any rate definitely their stores I will go to or places that carry their knives. I know where Aritsugu and Kikuichi are in Kyoto and I am sure I can find Shigeharu as well, and my fiancee knows Sakai a bit so I will go to Konosuke and Takayuki there and any others I can find

                                                              1. re: TeRReT
                                                                Chemicalkinetics RE: TeRReT Mar 10, 2012 07:48 AM

                                                                Got it. This makes much better sense. Please post the new knife after you bought it. I would love to know. Thanks.

                                                                1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                                  TeRReT RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 10, 2012 08:22 AM

                                                                  i will, but it won't be for another 6 months, a just beginning to plan it now :P

                                  2. re: cowboyardee
                                    cannibal RE: cowboyardee Mar 6, 2012 07:44 AM

                                    I've been wanting a Honesuki for quite a while, in fact, so long that I forgot about it :P
                                    The narrower point on the utility knife I use to break down chicken is part of the appeal for me. A honesuki has even better attributes.

                                    Thank for rekindling an old flame ;)

                                    1. re: cannibal
                                      Chemicalkinetics RE: cannibal Mar 6, 2012 07:47 AM

                                      We should get a honesuki together. :)

                                      1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                        cannibal RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 6, 2012 10:14 AM

                                        I could just imagine trying to explain that to my wife.
                                        "Chem and I are going to get a Honesuki!"

                                        she would probably ask if that's some kind of dancer, and if i need tip money :P

                                        In all seriousness though, the Tojiro DP honesuki seems to be the popular choice. Have you started looking at options yet?

                                        1. re: cannibal
                                          Chemicalkinetics RE: cannibal Mar 6, 2012 11:06 AM

                                          Yeah, I was just telling cowboy above that I am looking at the Moritaka hoesuki and JCK Kagayaki VG-10 honesuki

                                          http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/8371...

                                          You should totally get your wife to be jealous. Tell her that you write to "Chem" everyday. :P

                                          1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                            cannibal RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 6, 2012 02:46 PM

                                            If the JCK honesuki is anything like their Kagayaki gyuto (carbonext) then there's a good chance that will be a good knife.

                                            I want to try the Tojiro DP honesuki to branch out to different brands, I have wanted to try out one of their knives but always favor other brands when I compare price to performance. I think the Tojiro will be the one I end up getting since my budget is limited and their honesuki seems to be the better choice among similarly priced boning knives.
                                            A Moritaka would be really nice but I don't think my skills would do it justice :P

                                            1. re: cannibal
                                              Chemicalkinetics RE: cannibal Mar 6, 2012 08:04 PM

                                              "I want to try the Tojiro DP honesuki to branch out to different brands"

                                              I am the other way around. I already have/had two Tojiro, so I am trying to balance out away from Tojiro. A great brand -- I just want something different.

                                              1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                cannibal RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 7, 2012 11:23 AM

                                                Now that I think of it, I was looking at a Moritaka petty for a while. A beautiful knife with alluring functionality and aesthetics.
                                                Something came up and the funds went to more immediate needs, plus I figured my current utility works fine and doesn't really need replacement.

                                                On the other hand, I don't own a honesuki :P
                                                Maybe I can justify a Moritaka honesuki if it can double as a utility knife! haha

                                                1. re: cannibal
                                                  Chemicalkinetics RE: cannibal Mar 7, 2012 11:49 AM

                                                  :) Utility knife has a somewhat undefined function -- for me anyway. What do you use an utility knife for. Maybe some of these honesuki owners (not me) can tell you if a honesuki can handle those jobs.

                                  3. d
                                    Dave5440 RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 5, 2012 07:59 PM

                                    I have a global boning knife. I haven't used it since a got a good gyuto. The reason is pretty lame I only use one knife at a time, so if i'm just cleaning fish I use the deba, if I'm only breaking down a chicken, deba again(if only to use it once in a while) but if I'm going to cut up a chicken, cut up veg then some after cooking cutting I only get out one knife so it's 99% of the time my gyuto, when it chips , I don't sweat it , it still cuts great, when I sharpen(which is way more frequent now that I have people dropping knifes off to get done) I do a quick touch up and if I get the chips I get them if not , next time will get them. I do find stropping on a mousepad with 60k compound makes a huge difference in how long my edge lasts
                                    Edit--I'm still using the edgepro, my skill with stones is severly lacking

                                    21 Replies
                                    1. re: Dave5440
                                      Chemicalkinetics RE: Dave5440 Mar 5, 2012 08:12 PM

                                      Got it. You like to minimize the numbers of knife in each cooking preparation.

                                      "which is way more frequent now that I have people dropping knifes off to get done"

                                      You have also become a knife sharpener for friends too, huh?

                                      1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                        d
                                        Dave5440 RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 6, 2012 09:03 PM

                                        You have also become a knife sharpener for friends too, huh?
                                        Yes my wifes friends ,the last one, I came home from work(at 8pm) to find 3 knives rolled up in newspaper , she says I told her she can pick them up tommorow( I have to be at work at 7am) luckily they were nice and soft so about hr was all it took. Payment? 10lbs of pork roast, downside I had just picked up 27lbs at costco. So my coworkers ate pulled pork for 2 days

                                        1. re: Dave5440
                                          Chemicalkinetics RE: Dave5440 Mar 6, 2012 09:15 PM

                                          Dave,

                                          You made pulled pork? Did you grow up from the South (USA)? Somehow I don't associate Canada with pulled pork.

                                          "she says I told her she can pick them up tommorow"

                                          That does not make much sense. She (your wife friend) said that you told her that she can pick them up when you weren't even at home. How can you tell you what you said?

                                          Whatever it may be. You might have spoiled her. Now, she (your wife's friend) expect this is normal turn around time.

                                          1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                            d
                                            Dave5440 RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 7, 2012 06:16 AM

                                            No chem it was my wife that told her they would be done the next day.

                                            You made pulled pork? Did you grow up from the South
                                            No from canada but I've traveled the south and I've had a smoker for 15yrs, now I have a propane one and it's great.

                                            1. re: Dave5440
                                              Chemicalkinetics RE: Dave5440 Mar 7, 2012 07:22 AM

                                              Ok... so it wasn't really her friend's fault then. :)
                                              Good to know you have been a smoker for so long

                                            2. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                              TeRReT RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 7, 2012 07:17 AM

                                              Canada has all sorts of food. As Canada doesn't have so much its own known cuisine, though there are some dishes that are ours, we have dishes from everywhere. Especially in Toronto, the last few years saw a very large rise of pulled pork, it was very popular and still is a bit in cafe's and bars and the like. We have a lot of trends that come and go, recently poutine made a huge appearance.

                                              1. re: TeRReT
                                                Chemicalkinetics RE: TeRReT Mar 7, 2012 07:23 AM

                                                Is Canada cuisine strongly influenced by the French?

                                                Pull pork is pretty awesome. I used to live in the South. We don't get very good Southern barbecue up North (northern USA) here.

                                                1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                  TeRReT RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 7, 2012 07:32 AM

                                                  quebec and the east coast is strongly influenced by french, ontario is kind of influenced by everything. Toronto has everything. Little Italy, Little Portugal, China town, Greek Town, 2 Korea towns etc. A lot of the high end restaurants are mildly french influenced I guess, but really you can find everything. Ethiopian, Japanese, Indian, everything. Where I grew up, an hour north of Toronto is much smaller, 150,000 people and it still has thai, chinese, japanese, indian, etc. The difference is that in the centre of Canada we obviously don't have the fresh seafood that the east and west coast have. We do have lots of lake fish though. I wouldn't say we are heavily french, but likely slightly influenced. I prefer lighter flavours to the heavy sauces in french cooking, thats why I was more interested in learning Italian cooking.

                                                  We don't have all of the hardcore southern bbq, pulled pork is the most common of it. But we do have a few bbq places in Toronto that claim to be pretty good at it, and I know at least 1 or 2 get generally good reviews, but I don't have much experience in southern bbq except enjoying pulled pork and pulled brisket.

                                                  1. re: TeRReT
                                                    d
                                                    Dave5440 RE: TeRReT Mar 7, 2012 08:29 AM

                                                    It's pretty hard to put a finger on "Canadian" cusine, young country and nobody is really from here other than the natives and that's a hard food to find.

                                                    1. re: Dave5440
                                                      Chemicalkinetics RE: Dave5440 Mar 7, 2012 08:31 AM

                                                      Is Canada really younger than USA?

                                                      1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                        d
                                                        Dave5440 RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 7, 2012 08:40 AM

                                                        Going off the top of my head it became a country in the mid to late 1800"s
                                                        edit-- I just looked it up july 1st 1867

                                                        1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                          TeRReT RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 7, 2012 08:41 AM

                                                          yes, by almost 100 years :P

                                                          1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                            rosetown RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 8, 2012 09:04 PM

                                                            Is Canada really younger than USA?
                                                            -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                            As a country yes, but as a European settlement in the North American landscape, no. When the Americans fought England in the war of Independence, some, called 'United Empire Loyalists' left and settled north, in British controlled and settled territory. Then there was the war of 1812, between British North America (think territory that is now Canada) and the United States. It would have been unlikely to have such a war without Europeans living north of the United States.

                                                            1. re: rosetown
                                                              Chemicalkinetics RE: rosetown Mar 8, 2012 09:25 PM

                                                              Another way I was thinking is that even though Canada is a young country. It wasn't like it started off fresh, beginning from stone age. It started as an expansion of the European power (British). As such, its cuisine should have a direct lineage from Europe, just like the fact that Canada's language is directly imported from Europe.

                                                              1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                                rosetown RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 8, 2012 10:10 PM

                                                                2 languages actually, English and French.
                                                                Times have changed and the European influence on cuisine is diminishing rapidly.
                                                                It's the age of mass migration,with most now coming from Asia and the age of the internet. Those, in the Saskatchewan (german background) village of 350 people where I was born, enjoy Vietnamese when they visit. I'm sure it's not a lot different in the US.

                                                                I need to buy a boning knife.

                                                                1. re: rosetown
                                                                  Chemicalkinetics RE: rosetown Mar 8, 2012 10:13 PM

                                                                  "enjoy Vietnamese when they visit"

                                                                  Vietnamese-Vietnamese or French-Vietnamese like this?

                                                                  http://www.lecolonialchicago.com/

                                                                  I assume it is the former you are talking about, but I know a lot of people refer the latter.

                                                                  "I need to buy a boning knife."

                                                                  What have you been using to debone your meat?

                                                                  1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                                    rosetown RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 8, 2012 10:26 PM

                                                                    Saigon as opposed to Hanoi.

                                                                    'What have you been using to debone your meat?"

                                                                    Anything that works. :D

                                                              2. re: rosetown
                                                                d
                                                                Dave5440 RE: rosetown Mar 9, 2012 09:04 PM

                                                                Bring up and post links to canada in 1776 rosetown

                                                                1. re: Dave5440
                                                                  Chemicalkinetics RE: Dave5440 Mar 9, 2012 09:07 PM

                                                                  What?

                                                                  1. re: Dave5440
                                                                    rosetown RE: Dave5440 Mar 10, 2012 08:29 AM

                                                                    Thanks Dave, I wouldn't even know where to begin - I'm no historian - but what an interesting time frame for N America.
                                                                    Here's a map of the Province of Quebec (1774)
                                                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pro...
                                                                    Regards

                                                                    Edit: I don't know the origin of the map or how accurate it is.

                                                          2. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                            d
                                                            Dave5440 RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 7, 2012 08:24 AM

                                                            If I recall right you are about 2 hrs away from the best bbq I've ever had, Syracuse , Rochester, or Troy NY

                                                2. Delucacheesemonger RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 6, 2012 12:58 AM

                                                  Interesting, l use a Russell 8" boning knife dedicated to boning and a Dexter 8", 10". 14" chef's knife for their respective tasks. Boning strictly poultry and meat.

                                                  1 Reply
                                                  1. re: Delucacheesemonger
                                                    petek RE: Delucacheesemonger Mar 6, 2012 04:23 AM

                                                    I always use a dedicated boning or honesuki for poultry or meats.That's what they're designed for,yes?

                                                  2. j
                                                    JavaBean RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 6, 2012 08:47 AM

                                                    I can debone a chicken with a Chef's knife, but I prefer to use stiff petty ( I use it as a boning knife).  For me, the narrow blade is easier to maneuver, get at the joints than a wider chef's knife blade.  Plus, I put a tougher edge on it, so I can power through the joints without fear of damaging the edge.  If i use a Chef's knife with a more finer, delicate edge, I would have to be more careful about ensuring the cut was between the joints.

                                                    1. SanityRemoved RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 7, 2012 06:28 AM

                                                      I use a Sabatier **** Elephant boning knife a 1970s version of this: http://thebestthings.com/knives/graph...

                                                      Certainly you can get by with other knives but a boning knife just feels right for the task. It's the one type of knife where I really want a bolster or finger guard in the handle. I prefer to tune up the knives I'm going to use prior to using them but not the biggest fan of having to do it while prepping unless I know that I'm going to have to do it due to volume. Separate knives for separate tasks makes me happier.

                                                      Cold hands is my biggest problem but that is for another thread.

                                                      1 Reply
                                                      1. re: SanityRemoved
                                                        Chemicalkinetics RE: SanityRemoved Mar 7, 2012 07:25 AM

                                                        I don't care for a bolster, but a finger guard is very important. Mine is a Dexter-Russell, and its guard is the wood part as opposed to the metal bolster.

                                                        Mine isn't exactly this knife, but the concept of the finger guard is the same:

                                                        http://img2.foodservicewarehouse.com/...

                                                      2. r
                                                        RGC1982 RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 7, 2012 05:05 PM

                                                        I have a very sharp, flexible boning knife. I use it whenever I am taking steak off bones, or taking a bone out of a roast. I like that it is very sharp and flexible, and I have to say, that I never actually hit the bones with the blade while using it.

                                                        Now, for chickens, I have to admit that I am a little worried about cutting up chickens with my very brittle and sharp Japanese knives, or even my softer French carbon steels. So, I reach for my handy, sturdy, thick profiled Henkels Twin Pro eight inch chef's knife for that. Nothing like these great German knives for this job. This thing can hack through small chicken bones, like rib bones, quite easily, and gets through tendons pretty easily. It is not flexible at all, so it is not the best for boning a chicken, but it is great for cutting one up, either cooked or raw. If I have to take the breast meat or thigh meat off, this does an okay job, but my flexible boning knife is best. Again, I never have any reason to bang or push that edge against the bone, so I don't worry about it.

                                                        1. m
                                                          mikie RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 14, 2012 04:31 PM

                                                          Hi Chem.

                                                          I took a class last weekend that was taught by a Chef that was educated at the Cullinary Institute of America in Hyde Park, NY. He is also a past champion at the American Royal. He was demonstrating how to prepare a pork shoulder, a brisket, ribs and chicken. During the prep stages he used exclusively boning knives from his knife roll. I suppose it depends a lot on what you cook and how much you cut raw meat, but it looked to me that the boning knife was quite usefull.

                                                          BTW the class was on BBQ and was presented by the Midwest BarBQue Institute. My son-in-law and I got a certificate for Best Ribs for the class. The bigger question is do you really need a $9,000 BBQ smoker?

                                                          4 Replies
                                                          1. re: mikie
                                                            Chemicalkinetics RE: mikie Mar 14, 2012 06:21 PM

                                                            "BTW the class was on BBQ and was presented by the Midwest BarBQue Institute"

                                                            Awesome. I love BBQ, although some people say too much smoked meat is not good for the bodies.

                                                            "My son-in-law and I got a certificate for Best Ribs for the class"

                                                            I want to learn to do really good pork butt (pork shoulder). I lived in Georgia.

                                                            "The bigger question is do you really need a $9,000 BBQ smoker?"

                                                            Did you get an answer for it? My guess is not unless you are running a high throughput business. Afterall, I doubt many mom and pop barbecue joints can afford that.

                                                            1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                              m
                                                              mikie RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 14, 2012 06:44 PM

                                                              We showed up with our $300 Weber Smokeymountain, the guy that arrived just before we did pulled up with a $9000 rig with a paint job better than my car. A bunch of chrome or stainless and enough capacity to feed a small third world country lunch. It was a bit intimadating, he planed to go on the BBQ competition circuit.

                                                              According to the instructor, the best bang for the buck if you are getting started is the Weber Smokeymountain.

                                                              1. re: mikie
                                                                Chemicalkinetics RE: mikie Mar 14, 2012 07:17 PM

                                                                "he planed to go on the BBQ competition circuit"

                                                                Well, for some people, that is how they make their names and then build their business. However, like you said, a Weber Smokeymountain is probably more than sufficient for most people. What kind of BBQ are you most interested? Texan brisket? South Carolina pull pork? Georgia chopped pork?

                                                                1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                                  m
                                                                  mikie RE: Chemicalkinetics Mar 15, 2012 11:21 AM

                                                                  I like variety, but I probably do more pork butts than anything else. I can do 2 eight pounders at once and then have some in the freezer for quick meals. But I've smoked turky, brisket, ribs, chicken, fattie, the works.

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