Why don't more Americans use induction?

[BobB]

I recently got a new range with induction cooktop, and have been absolutely blown away by its capabilities. It far outperforms any electric range on the market with its instant responsiveness (here it replaced a halogen flattop that had been driving me crazy since we moved into this place). It outperforms gas at both ends of the temperature spectrum, with the ability to hold a steady ultra-low simmer AND get hotter on its largest burner than the hottest legal-for-home-use gas ranges like the Capital Culinarian and Blue Star. All while being so easy to clean up it's crazy - you can even lay sheets of paper towels under your pans while you're cooking to catch spatters and spills.

Add to that the safety and energy-efficiency aspects, and it's hard to imagine using anything else.

Granted there are two drawbacks: you can't use a round-bottomed wok very effectively (I don't do wok cooking), and you must use ferrous cookware (but that just gave me an excuse to go out and buy some dream items that I'd wanted but couldn't justify getting because I already had pretty good versions in the house).

Induction has been around for well over 75 years. It's hugely popular in Europe and Australia, is catching on fast in restaurant kitchens and high-end homes, but according to the statistics I've been able to glean from the Web, only some 2% - 5% of American homes currently have induction cooktops. What gives?

[The Chowhound Team]

Folks, we've pared this thread back repeatedly to try and keep it friendly, but it's not working. We're going to lock it now.

[Nav210west]

My parents had induction when I was a child in the 80's in our house in the Netherlands. I could never figure out why I could not get that style of cooktop in the US ... until recently. 2 months ago I installed the 36" Kitchenaid and it is great. I am not sure why there are complaints about pan sizing since I use virtually any size pan I want on any of the hobs. When I researched induction cooktops, this latest model from Kitchenaid was the most powerful available in the US (keep an eye for when "zoneless" models make it across the pond). I prefer Demeyere cookware due to familiarity from childhood and their uncompromising quality. I am having to teach my household members how to use induction and there is strong "social" resistance ... i.e. I am being told that I purchased an "embarrassingly showy nouveau riche pretentious" style cooktop.
Like an earlier comment in this blog, some things are getting burned by my family members as they all seem determined to demonstrate that Induction is not a good choice for cooking ... my visiting inlaws refuse to touch it. So far, though, they have been unable to burn things in the Demeyere "Contol-Induct" pans .. i.e. the pans change (lose) magnetic properties when the temperature goes over 485F, stopping induction and preventing over heating. So far Demeyere only offers control-induct in their fry pans.
Because Induction cooktops are being grossly overpriced in the US currently, I am being accused of being silly, pretentious and stupid for getting induction. I can tell you, I shopped the heck out of induction here and purchased mine for 60% off the full retail from a local brick and mortar dealer. I knew there was "really" nothing that special about good old induction, and made it clear I was only going to pay a reasonable price. Thanks to the terrible Obamanomics economy, dealers were willing to "deal".
Once, I established that I was not a "silly", "controlled-by-marketing" impulse consumer to my mensa-brat household members, they have begun to quiet down (a little). But, they all bemoan not being able to use all the copper and other cookware. I just play the small violins between my fingers and point them to the new Demeyere ... which I remind them, they will probably inherit. :-)

[Sid Post]

I have had the pleasure/displeasure of cooking exclusively on a hot plate for the past three weeks. I broke out the cheapie induction "hot plate" I picked up a while back and started using it.

With the two stainless pans I stuck in my batch kit, I found neither were ferrous enough to work on the induction so they are disc hot plate only. My De Buyer Crepe and Fry pans heat up much faster and are much more responsive on the induction then traditional disc hot plate.

[kaleokahu]

Yet another answer to the OP's question: Every pan's different on induction; You have all the customary variables, PLUS some sort of infernal ferric calculus to deal with. Too. Much. Bother.

[Caroline1]

And I bet you'd hate learning to drive a Ferrari, with all of those gear ratios and tachometers and too much bother! '-)

[BobB]

OP here: in fact there is considerably less variation in performance among pans on my induction than I had on my old halogen electric. There, the difference in heating time and amount between, say, aluminum non-stick and enameled cast iron was huge, and one of the reasons I hated it. On the induction, everything is of necessity ferrous, and theory aside, my actual experience has been that allowing for the fact that cast iron takes a few seconds longer to heat up than stainless because it's thicker, the only real outlier is a Swiss Diamond pot that heats noticeably less than anything else at a given setting. I assume it's because they took a standard Swiss Diamond and added just enough iron or steel to allow it to work on induction, and I make this assumption because if I put it on my largest burner, which is a couple of inches in diameter larger than the base of the pot, it won't even activate the burner, while a similar-sized stainless or iron pan works fine. On the plus side, there is no heating difference at all between a plain stainless skillet and a similar one with a non-stick coating. Life is much less complicated now.

[Caroline1]

WOW! Have you ever made me happy I did not spring for the price difference between my Swiss Diamond omelette pan (8" fry pan) and the induction model! Especially since I'm not all that thrilled with Swiss Diamond in the non-stick that I bought. It ISN'T! <sigh>

[GH1618]

"Ferric calculus"? That is an invented term with no meaning, as near as I can tell.

I don't think cooks converting to induction will be doing any calculations to predict how a pan will perform. They will find a pan that works for what they want to do, and they will adapt to the different characteristics of induction through the experience of using it.

Face it, cooking generally is a bother, and not primarily because of the complexity of the technology which transfers heat to food. Yet many people choose to do it and even enjoy it.

[kaleokahu]

Hi, GH1618:

Why, thank you, I think ferric calculus is a fitting term to coin for not knowing in advance how--and how well--your different pans will work on induction. *Of course* folks aren't going to do that (calculate); they'll just (mis)spend trying to find better/consistent.

I wasn't referring to *cooking* being a bother. But adjusting for otherwise identical pans' varying performance on induction, along with all the other major and minor drawbacks, just seems to make switching to induction a solution in search of a problem. IMO, very few would do it were it not for the technophilia/status aspect of it.

Aloha,
Kaleo

[Caroline1]

Come on, Kaleo, bust loose with eighty bucks and give induction try! You keep leaping in to all of these induction threads like you know what you're talking about. Don't knock it until you've tried it...!!!! '-)

[GH1618]

K, when you go to such a length to devise a defense to your criticism of induction cooking, it just makes your entire position look ridiculous. I suspect your real objection is just that it doesn't work with copper (which we all know you love), except for a couple of Japanese units which support it, but not very well. Why don't you just admit your copper bias, which is easily defensible, and respect the preference others have for induction without belittling them? To each his (or her) own, I say.

[kaleokahu]

Hi, GH1618:

Thanks again. My plain and admitted copper bias has very little to do with my criticism of induction. Sure, why have the best cookware--and trade down just to make induction "work"?

But this is just the tip of the iceberg. Hot spots, sensor issues, guarantees, fixed-stepped controls, years of cost recoupment, flight-simulator controls, house rewiring, false economy, fan issues, humming/clicking, clearance issues, need for separate ovens, CATO failures, delicate glass, owner serviceability, pan variance... The list of issues that has *nothing* to do with copper goes on and on.

The advantages (modern look, cleaning, cool kitchen, fast boiling, super-high output, theoretical energy savings) are largely convenience and feel-good factors, IMO. Sorry that sounds ridiculous to you. But you are WAY off base if you think I belittle anyone over their preference. To each his own, even if they're blowing smoke up my dress about energy savings.

Ironically, what may save induction may also relegate it... These $80 hotplates, because they're 110v and essentially disposable throwaways, make some sense. But so do butane and alcohol rechauds and propane camp stoves.

Aloha,
Kaleo

[BobB]

" IMO, very few would do it were it not for the technophilia/status aspect of it."

Technophilia/status? Hogwash! I went to induction because it was too expensive for me to switch to gas, which I would have been equally happy with, I'm sure. Either one is a huge step up from electric. And would you please do some empirical testing before making claims about "otherwise identical pans' varying performance on induction." As I reported above, in the real world that simply is not true - I get very consistent performance from my wide variety of pans, with one exception as noted.

[kaleokahu]

Hi, BobB:

Then you are one of the "very few". I could see putting in induction in new all-electric homes. But I wouldn't consider it a "huge step up" from resistive or radiant. But doing a kitchen remodel and switching from a decent gas appliance to induction? I see no viable explanation besides technophilia/status. Maybe interior design.

Regarding pan variance, this is anecdotal, yet *widely* reported here among respected posters (including our beloved Caroline, Politeness and many others). Some say cast iron "works" best, others say thin SS bowls and cookie sheets do. Many claim monolithic carbon steel is best. Others comb the Interwebs looking for the fabled Mauviel Induc'Inox steel+steel clad. It hasn't been that long since Le Creuset wouldn't work *at all* on Viking tops. The bottom line is that there is wide recognition that performance varies from one pan construction to another. Truth be told, I think it also probably varies from brand/model to brand/model and among different detection circuitries. You may think that's hogwash, too, but then you'd have to do your own empirical testing...

Aloha,
Kaleo

[Caroline1]

To my great amazement, about two weeks ago I was making a potato salad. I had peeled the potatoes and set them in a 40 year old stainless steel mixing bowl. I thought, What the heck! and added water and set it on the induction burner just to see what would happen. The potatoes were boiling in no time! Who would think a 40 year old stainless steel mixing bowl could be induction ready? BIG surprise!

[kendunn]

The "steel" in stainless is magnetic, only with the addition of nickle does it change its molecular structure and becomes non magnetic. Nickle doesn't have to be present to make stainless steel, but it strengthens the anti oxidation layers. That's why stainless pots are rated in a ratio like "18/10", which isn't induction ready because it has 18% chromium and 10% nickle.

[Caroline1]

'Scuse me, but where I come from, the exacting definition of "stainless steel" IS alloyed iron, nickle, and chromium. But today there is a huge variety of alloyed metals that are commonly referred to as "stainless steel." I'm not sure, but I don't think molybdinum, vanadium, and other exotic alloys that are used in many kitchen knives, for example, are ferrous, but I do know that I have enough different kinds of "stainless steel" in my kitchen made from varying alloy recipes that the ONLY way I can tell what will work on my induction hob is to set the pot on it and see if the hob screams "Reject! Reject!" If it does, I just try another pot. And I DO find that different brands of induction ready stainless steel cookware may have differing levels of responsiveness. Which is why, overall, I prefer carbon steel, cast iron, and pure iron with induction. I know what I'm dealing with beforre I turn on the hob.

[GH1618]

Is stainless steel magnetic?

http://www.physlink.com/education/ask...

[kaleokahu]

Hi, again GH1618:

This is the inevitable point where someone points out that the "magnet test" doesn't assure the consumer that their cookware will function (or how well). As Car points out above:

"...the ONLY way I can tell what will work on my induction hob is to set the pot on it and see if the hob screams "Reject! Reject!" If it does, I just try another pot. And I DO find that different brands of induction ready stainless steel cookware may have differing levels of responsiveness."

Round and round we go...

Aloha,
Kaleo

[Nav210west]

I grew up with induction and Demeyere cookware. I recently purchased induction for my American house, and, although I researched many many brands and types of cookware (with the help of the bloggers of this website), after looking at and trying many many different brands I returned to the cookware my mother swore by (not at) ... Demeyere. I am extremely happy and am amazed at the superior response rates of Demeyere over the other cookware. I still put a Le Creuset pan right next to a similar size Demeyere pan and demonstrate a water boiling race for friends. The Demeyere is like cooking with a Porsche Panamera Turbo S while in comparison the Le Creuset is like a Buick.

[Nav210west]

Some stainless is magnetic and some is not. There are many grades of Stainless Steel, 304, 305, 316, etc etc. It all depends on whether there is Ferrous metal in the stainless type. Ferrous metal is magnetic and is necessary for induction. As mentioned in other Blogs, I highly recommend not wasting time with any other cookware than Demeyere. IMHO ... :-) Demeyere has been used by my family since the 1970's and all those pots and pans are still in use in my family's households. I have recently purchased the newer Demeyere for my American household and it is fantastic. They even now have Control-Induct pans that lose their magnetic properties as the temperature approaches 485F preventing further induction and preventing burning. When the temperature decreases, the magnetic properties return and the induction continues. This is the most brilliant responsive cookware I have ever used. If Porsche designed cookware, this would be it.

[Nav210west]

LOL, GH1618. maybe I should sell Demeyere. Considering all the disappointing purchases I have made, mainly chinese made items, I get very excited when I find a product that does not disappoint; namely, Demeyere, Wolf, Jura Capresso, Chevy Silverado, Hancock & Moore, Alpine Design, Jongert, etc etc. ... soooo, sorry for sounding so Salezy (and, btw, you will never meet another person more anti sales person than me), but I think it is important for genuine non-compensated bloggers and people to let others know when something is "really" as advertised.

[Ericruo]

The glass surface of induction stoves is fragile and they don't tell you that. I shattered the glass surface of a Kenmore Elite hob by putting a pot lid that had been heated by boiling water - i.e. it wasn't that hot and the sound was spectacular! Sears said I abused it by putting hot thing on the stove, which irritated and surprised me. Now that I know better, I'd probably get another one - one doesn't need as robust a stove hood because there's not as much non-cooking heat. I think the control is great. I have a 220 v. induction wok and if you look away after you add the oil, you got fire.

[Chemicalkinetics]

<Sears said I abused it by putting hot thing on the stove>

Sears was speaking nonsense if it actually said that. Your pot will be way hotter than any hot lid. A hot lid cannot be hotter than 100oC from the boiling vapor. Cooking pots can easily be 200oC. Why don't they just say don't put any hot pots on the cooktop.

[GaKaye]

I'm guessing it's cost and lack of understanding of the technology. We just moved and built a new home where natural gas is not available. I didn't want a propane tank in my yard, so went with induction for responsiveness comparable to gas. Had I known then what I know now, I would have had induction forever. It's at least as responsive as gas, crazily easy to clean, and looks great. Yes, I did have to purchase some new cookware, and I did buy All Clad, but there are less expensive options that will work on induction.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

My take on the original question as to why more are not using it.

Cost of the units.

Why remove a working system that doesn't cost that much to run?

Standard ranges have more flexibilty for types of pots and pans that can be used on them.

Many people just don't know about them, or how they work.

The percentage of people who are foodies who would really notice a difference in cooking with one is very small. Most Americans don't give a stove top, their pans, or cooking in general much thought. Put the pan on the stove, turn it on, add the food when it is hot, remove when done.............is how I would guess 90% of Americans cook.

I have an all electric house , and my average electric bill is under $40 a month. If the pan sits on the stove a few extra minutes it isn't costing me much, and I am not in a hurray,so why worry about it. As for response time when dialed down. If I need to cool a pan quickly I slide it off the hot burner, and onto a cold one, I don't leave it setting on the hot glass. This removes the heat source, so the only heat is coming from the hot pot, or pan.

Induction heating has been around for a long time in industry. I use induction coils at work for zone annealing small, and large copper electrical contacts. We heat the tops red hot then quench them to soften the wire end. This takes about 2-3 seconds. Any metal will heat up with induction with the right frequency (HZ), power (KW), and coupling with the coil. Google induction heating, and you will see that there is a lot to it, and there isn't a one size fits all approach.

[John Francis]

More and more people are renting instead of buying where they live, and rental apartments like mine almost always come with standard gas or electric stoves. Why? For one thing, because they're cheaper.

I'm glad, because I don't want to replace my aluminum and copper and glass cookware, which has served me well for many years. Why should I let a stove dictate to me what pots and pans I can use?

[TeRReT]

Where I am, rental apartments are completely unfurnished, including the kitchen. I have also moved from one country to another and brought no pans with me, as such it was very easy to grab an induction hotplate and a few IH pans.

[John Francis]

Never heard of such a thing! I've lived in rental apartments for most of my life, six of them so far, and every one had the basic kitchen equipment: including a gas stove/oven. If it didn't, I wouldn't have rented it. Out of curiosity, where do you live? I've lived in Manhattan and Brooklyn NY all this time.

As for the running costs, my gas bill has never been high enough to worry about, and presently I get no gas bills as the landlord provides the gas.

Clearly, those who have induction stoves (ovens?) have a missionary zeal to recruit more converts! But I don't buy it, so I won't buy it. :-)

[Chemicalkinetics]

John,

TeRReT currently is living in Japan. It is different.

<But I don't buy it, so I won't buy it. :-)>

Ha.

[lcool]

as is Korea,Italy,France etc

[John Francis]

Ah so. Well, if you have to buy your appliances anyway, it's up to you.

[cacruden]

Quebec (with the exception of Montreal central) an apartment comes without appliances, which in some cases means lugging appliances up and down a four floor walkup :o

[Caroline1]

I went that route about loving my copper pans and went with a high end black glass electronic smooth cooktop that visually melts into my black granite countertops....to my everlasting regret! Once you buy the new pots and pans you may need for induction, it makes no difference to your wallet how much the price of cookware goes up after you've bought yours. My eternal regret over my buying a radiant heat cooktop instead of an induction cooktop is that the cost increase in my electric bill was not nailed to the time I bought my radiant cooktop! Had I bit the bullet on my copper pans and gone with induction I would not currently be using my $1,200.00 radiant cooktop as a tray to hold my $88.65 Max Burton 1800watt induction portable in an everlasting effort to reduce my electric usage and thus neutralize my electric companies everlasting price increases!

Had I known then what I know now, I would have a full induction GE cooktop with 19 presets and several lovely DeBuyer Mineral B pots and pans and be one very happy camper! And there's another thing no cookware or induction manufacturer tells you: No induction ready stainless steel cookware will be as responsive to induction cooking as cast iron or pure iron cookware because the amount of ferrous material in any given pot or pan will determine how responsive that particular pot or pan will be. I do now have a collection of 8 new induction ready ss pots and pans that I bought in anticipation of the Max Burton, but they stay on the shelf if I have anything in cast iron or pure iron that will work instead.

Live and learn...

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

According to my electric bill I average around $1.30 a day in electric. My house is all electric, no gas available at all. Use the stove top, it doesn't use that much power. I am paying a little over 6 cents a kilowat hour here in S. NV.

Items that use big amounts of electricity are air conditioners, heaters, TV's, clothes dryers, etc that are on for hours, and hours, or have higher amperage draws. You are fretting over pennies with the stove top.

[paulj]

I retired my glass (Visions, Corning) cookware long before getting induction. I only have one copper pot, as 3 qt sauce pan, which is ok, but not something I must use. I have found that the best aluminum pans are the induction compatible ones - they are thicker and distribute heat better. I've also bought more stainless steel since getting an induction burner.

About the only pot that I wish I could use on the induction burner is an aluminum dutch oven. And I stick with the coil burner for pancakes, even when using carbon steel.

[lcool]

HABIT,even if only lazy or convenient is very powerful
CHANGE,slow and viewed with mistrust if what's there works and doesn't require (?)
WHEN is it going to be cost effective,saving enough to offset the initial premium investment?
INFRASTRUCTURE already in place in place.Almost all US takes potable water and utility delivery as a given that will greet them every DAY,without fail.That it is no longer cheap or unlimited is a recent wake up call.
AVAILABILITY of detailed,accurate product information?Not hard or spotty at best .
ADD is the service sector ready?.....NOT

[Veggo]

I noticed a comment earlier in this thread by Caroline1, that induction stovetops require one to choose a discrete setting, I think she said there can be as many as 17. I'm surprised that an appliance at that price point is not equipped with a rheostat or potentiometer to provide continuously variable heat settings. The electronics that enable that feature are relatively simple, and are in proportion to the cost of the appliance.

[GH1618]

Discreet switching is probably more reliable. With enough discreet settings you get the practical equivalent of continuous settings, and you also get reproducability.

[Veggo]

Aren't "discreet" settings more appropriate for the bedroom dimmer?....:) And reproducability, too!

[GH1618]

Good point! I meant "discrete," of course.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Ha ha ha. You two are both smart and funny. Yes, it is more reproducible as in human reproduction.

Seriously, I think having enough discrete settings are as good as continuous setting.

[Caroline1]

You're right, Veggo. At this point in time, all induction portables and cooktops seem to have their number of presets arbitrarily set by each manufacturer. Some as low as five, a few as high at 19 and above. Some manufacturers tell you outright how many they have, others make you dig for the information, and one famous high-end "Euro" manufacturer refuses to disclose how many presets they have but make it sound like new buyers will have the same temperature flow as they do with gas or radiant electric. Consequently, innocents who buy low or even the highest wattage 110v units to take home and try to see if they like induction end up being turned off and hating it if they've bought a unit with minimal presets. And in this specific case, cost is NOT an indicator of the number of presets available, When it comes to tight contol over your cooking temperatures, at this stage of the game, induction requires major buyer education before wading into this river! And that's a real shame.

[lcool]

I am with all your posts.The utility savings is real.
In Italy and France many of us have hybrid cook tops.LPG and INDUCTION,from the FACTORY
However we do not have central AC etc with US zone8 winters and zone6 summers.Gas is still the old hassle of lug the bombola for all except two of fourteen.
My sister and sister in law both live in Manassas Va where there has been a gas moratorium since forever and LPG & OIL tanks are forbidden.So all electric no matter what.
Lucky in the fact they never loose power or face brown outs.
However as serious cooks,both were fed up with HOT kitchens unless you wanted to put up with noisy fans (ceiling,floor& exhaust) and,or over cooling the rest of the house.At 65+ we just aren't as OK with hot and stuffy as we used to be.Or how about dear friend Nora still
CANNING in the kitchen of a hysterical oops historical circa 1830 farm house without AC?Gas burner in barn etc or INDUCTION,choice was easy.

It took two years of relentless digging and homework.My appliance service folks,small company,three generations in the field weren't enthusiastic to say the least.They build,detail and install for many of the biggest names and had close to ZERO luck getting anyone at the factory level to work with us.We succeeded over time.Nothing was made easy by the brands etc.Most,not all induction "on the shelf" in the US leaves much to be desired either in quality or real working information.
My sister and sister in law have seen SIGNIFICANT reductions on the electric bill for two years.Really significant when compared to neighbors after two heat wave summers and a regulatory rate hike of +6%.
Reduced fan use,cooler environment,less AC,pots and pans cleaner,easier to clean,less water and dishwasher.A win win regarding the energy,carbon footprint in my limited experience.

[paulj]

Induction would fit in nicely with cogeneration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogenera...
This is where a fuel like natural gas is used to generate electricity, and the 'waste' heat is used to heat water, heat the building, and even provide cooling.

Big consumers like hospitals and Walmart stores have been interested in this kind of thing for a number of years, and I suspect that with gas prices so low, many have made the investment.

[Veggo]

A friend built a refrigerated warehouse in Ho Chi Minh City, with a dedicated hard-piped LNG supply for the AC (the big Cat diesel generators are easily modified for LNG), because he could not risk power interruptions from the grid, and it cleverly utilizes the heat generated to power up a small slave AC supplement. Neat stuff.

[lcool]

Brother in law,an engineer specializing in refrigeration in the charter boat business with a client base from West Palm Beach all through the islands.He has and is doing some really cool stuff like you mention.One son lives in the BVIs and they have done some really cool stuff for his house.

[kendunn]

Maybe this will change your mind, I just saw that the Dept of Energy (in the USA) estimates that cook tops account for less than 3% of the energy used in the home. It showed examples of cost to operate electric ranges as being around $50 per year and gas less than $20. My power bill is around $150/month on average, so I am using $4.50 per month for my stove. http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity...

[Chemicalkinetics]

Well, cooktops consitute a small percentage of the total energy use in households, let's alone the total energy in a society.

[Veggo]

In tropical climates, stovetop and oven use are real considerations in hot weather, even with AC but moreso without it. Nearly all stoves in Mexico and Central America are propane.

[kaleokahu]

Hi, kendunn:

Re: annual power consumption of cooktops, you are absolutely correct--it is a minuscule percentage of the total household consumption.

If someone (like Caroline) is saving $30 *per month* by using induction over radiant electric, their power bill would have to be well >$3,000 per month. I just don't think that's happening.

Aloha,
Kaleo

[Veggo]

Electric bills for a large home in Dallas typically run over $600 per month in summer, mostly from AC, and a large portion of cost savings from induction would arise from not having to re-chill so much inside air a second time. Caroline is a whiz in the kitchen, and spends a lot of time there, so her calculation doesn't surprise me.

[kendunn]

Caroline I am sure can out cook me, but I was a HVAC contractor for years. The energy saved from induction reduced from the HVAC load is negligible and would amount to a few cents a month. Just for grins and giggles, a 3 ton AC takes out more heat in 1 minute than a 1000 watt burner at half would put out in 25, or $.004, and thats total heat, not figuring in what goes out the vent, what is absorbed by the food, and not figuring in efficiency (remember an induction is only slightly more efficient, most of this heat would apply no matter which form you use) Amounts for pocket change for the whole year.

[Chemicalkinetics]

The pure money saving from induction cooking on the stove is little especially cooking is a small portion of the total bill. However, the exhaust fan could put a dent on the AC bill. Basically, constantly pumping cold air out of the house and drawing hot air from outside into the home. Think of it like turning the AC up while opening your windows.

In theory, induction output less wasted heat into the kitchen and less toxic by-product gases, so one can put in a weaker exhaust fan, and the weaker exhaust fan is like closing some of the opened windows.

Of course, this really depends how long the cooking last and if the exhaust fan system was indeed changed. If the exhaust fan system was not changed, then it won't save much money.

[cacruden]

Are you running AC in all the rooms of the large house at the same time? Seems pretty high....

[John Francis]

lcool speaks of utility costs in France and Italy. I'm sure they are different from typical US costs.

[lcool]

Where I make geographical references,GAS ,propane or piped "natural" gas IS NOT AN OPTION,an antiquated HASSLE or can you afford to bring it from the street.IE some of Cabin John,Montgomery Co Md.In the past two years gas lines have been extended down many little dead end streets.The $ there is $2,800.00 if it is reasonable to trench from the street or $8,000.00+ if you need horizontal drilling to save your trees,landscape or other features and does not include the cost of your plumber,gas fitter at the house <40 feet away.Now,how or when on the large $ appliances to be replaced.If you have lived here with LPG and OIL tanks grandfathered for 35+ years,taken the tankless hot water step so only AC and other little stuff is electric YOU DO NOTHING.Except get the one little induction burner to greatly reduce AMBIENT heat you are fed up with in the summer kitchen.
If you cost out electric in the DC area you will find the costs way exceed your residential numbers.
I will expand on my 31 August post to C1.Regarding my two sibs living less than two miles apart,Manasas Va.Both houses in the summer,empty,idle for four weeks,
three in July,one in August.Not this year,all stayed home and still payed less.
EX Neighbor across the street,retired childless couple with 80% shade,triple not double windows,solar attic fan,smaller house paid $54.00 more,June and July than brother.
Needless to say they were ? enough to involve the electric co.No sir,the bill,meter etc are correct.
So the reduction of added,personal environment heat is a very real savings to many.

[kendunn]

Lets just get something straight here, there is a lot of talk of efficiency when cooking, and I agree that efficiency should be a top priority, the energy used in cooking is very little. We almost spend as much on salt, lol. I would guesstimate that an average meal would cost maybe a nickle to cook. Take boiling a gallon of water for pasta for instance, just a guess, but I imagine it would take a 10,000 btu burner 15 minutes. A gallon of propane has close to 100,000 per hour in it and costs around $2.50, so it would take around 2500 btu, or 2.5% of a gallon or less than a nickle, and this is the least efficient/most expensive of all methods. So with induction it may cost 2 cents less, which amounts to maybe $1 per year @ 2 meals a day, and thats boiling water, which uses a lot of energy.

[PepinRocks]

Kendunn,

First, I totally agree - totally.

Moreover, there are additional costs that factor in. An induction cooktop also costs a whole bunch more than a standard cooktop. And most people end up blowing a whole lot more money on "induction compatible" cookware, in the process. So I would submit that there is an additional $1000-2000 spent to have and use it - as a full cooktop - instead of "just one fob for point use".

So the ROI against even a mere $1000 of upfront expense would take FOREVER to justify in "electric savings" for most people. My own cooking gas fuel costs are at MOST $10 a month. Most times, it's about $5-7. And I get to use any pan that I want, don't need to buy anything new, can buy any new pan that strikes my fancy, etc.

CHANGING to induction ... is NOT about saving money or helping the environment. It's a life style choice. Period. Even if one were to look at all of this as a "new house w/ no existing appliances", there is still no valid ROI for induction, for anything other than outlier situations or point solutions. Not here in the USA anyway.

Other than the mere ability to "boil water faster" ... what does it actually offer? Nada. Muchas Gracias!

[danna]

"Other than the mere ability to "boil water faster" ... what does it actually offer? Nada."

Oh, you are SO wrong. With my new induction top I have the ability, for the first time in my LIFE, to turn down the damn heat. If you haven't cooked on electric, you may not understand that. It's SPECTACULAR....i've had the new stove 6 months or so now, and I still get a thrill everytime I turn something that's boiling down to a simmer...immediately!!!!

[PepinRocks]

I do hear where you are coming from. But I have cooked on electric and there is a BIG range of them out there - some pretty darn good. And many that, IMO, Suck - big time.

My parents have a good electric range. One of those glass top things. I can't recall the brand but it's probably something like GE Profile or Frigidaire. I do have to admit that - for an electric - it works pretty well. It's not as good as gas but it's not bad at all. I've used it many times, since when I'm there, I do all the cooking. And if I'm doing a pan sauce and drop the temperature, it really does react pretty quickly. Would induction do that any faster? Hmmm .... MAYBE. But it's also not all that tough to slide the pan partially or entirely off the burner and accomplish EXACTLY the same thing.

So again ... I'd submit that ... versus a GOOD standard electric stove or cooktop that induction offers very little in the way of any REAL advantages. Against a BAD electric ... sure - it'll be great - but that isn't really the point.

[Chemicalkinetics]

< But it's also not all that tough to slide the pan partially or entirely off the burner and accomplish EXACTLY the same thing. >

You know I agree most of what you said, but this is there induction has an advantage. When we slide the pan partially off the burner or when we use one of those flame tamer, then the induction is more energy efficient at that point. Does this happen very often? Probably not.

[unprofessional_chef]

PepinRocks: "So again ... I'd submit that ... versus a GOOD standard electric stove or cooktop that induction offers very little in the way of any REAL advantages. Against a BAD electric ... sure - it'll be great - but that isn't really the point."

I used to think like this before I tried induction. You really need to try it before passing judgement. Induction is much faster at boiling water or heating up the pan than gas or any other burners. It has really saved me time in the kitchen. My portable unit will often boil water faster than I can prep. Where as I'm usually ahead if I was on my gas stove.

Induction is also easy to clean because it's a glasstop. But the glass never really gets hot like other conventional glasstops. So you're never left with burnt in food or mineral deposits from water to stain the glass. Boilovers can be cleaned up immediately. Try doing that with any other burner. Even if the splatter is cleaned up later, it comes right off because it's hasn't been burnt into the glass at over 600 deg. I'm sure my induction unit will look like the day I got it after many years of use.

I would never use a conventional radiant glasstop simply because the glass gets too hot. Any sudden temperature changes like a boil over or dropping cold water over it could thermal shock glass and could possibly crack it. My friend tells me his new radiant glasstop takes forever to boil a gallon of water for pasta.

Using induction instead of gas has kept the bottoms of my All-Clad and other pans as clean as the inside. I now use it as my primary cooktop because it has eliminated all of my little pet peeves of my gas stove.

[kendunn]

OK, lets get this all out in the open with facts. Induction technology is great, but the implementation has been poor. Its like digital dashboards in 80's cars, they are a solution looking for a problem. Every induction I have seen looks like an ipod control rather than a burner control and, to be frank, just stupid. An infinitely adjustable rheostat for each burner would go a long way in my book.

There is no reason an induction top should cost any more than a smooth resistive top. The hotplates for both resistive and induction are $50, why should an induction range cost $1000 more? No reason. Efficiency is always good, but its so small its totally irrelivant unless you are a commercial kitchen going full blast all the time. A gas range wins hands down as far as cost/performance.

Some older houses would have to have their complete electrical systems upgraded to go to an electric range costing thousands. Gas is fantastic if you need to shake or tilt a pan. Induction not so much. It likes to have the pan on there all the time and the top is much more delicate. Induction adds much less heat to the home and doesn't need nearly the exhaust that gas does. That also makes it great for boiling water.

I won't even talk about buying new pots and pans, everyone knows about that. Induction tops are easier to clean, but not a huge deal to clean gas. I have worked in HVAC with both gas and electric, and let me tell you gas is no more dangerous than a high amp circuit. Sure gas can leak and carbon monoxide is dangerous, but I have seen wires get hot and fry, too. It takes a lot to trip that 50 amp breaker. Do it right and run rigid black pipe all the way to a STEEL flexible connector to your stove and a good vent to the outside and you should be just as safe as electric.

[unprofessional_chef]

kendunn: "Every induction I have seen looks like an ipod control rather than a burner control and, to be frank, just stupid."

The purpose of the touch control is for easy cleaning. There aren't any buttons or knobs to get dirty or break.

"Gas is fantastic if you need to shake or tilt a pan. Induction not so much."

That's an advantage that gas has over all other burners. Not just induction.

My earlier post was specifically talking about the advantages of induction VS gas, electric, radiant glass. More about the burns than how people are going to get induction into their homes. Yes, there is a lot to consider. But for people that already have a stove that runs on electricity and want to convert to an induction stove, the infrastructure would be there for an easier transition. I think of induction as a direct upgrade for the other electric cooktops where the advantages of induction greatly outweigh the disadvantages.

[Chemicalkinetics]

<The purpose of the touch control is for easy cleaning>

Actually, there is a more probable reason. Actually two probable reasons. First, it is for marketing. Induction cooking is sold as a futuristic cooking style (even through it isn't). For that reason, it is important to have a futuristic controller as well. Think most of hybrid electric cars. Prius is designed in a certain look. Toyota could have made it look like any average seda or coup, but it definitely isn't. The unique appearance is no accident.

Second, induction cooking is not by attenuation of voltage/potential, but by frequency and duration of the on and off cycle. In light of this, it seems to me that adjustable rheostat is less intuitive than a digital controller.

[Veggo]

I have a broken futuristic controller on my dishwasher that will cost $280 to replace. So much for the future.
A fairly simple circuit with rectifiers and other semiconductors, an electrolytic capacitor, resistors, and a potentiometer would enable continuously variable power settings for an induction system.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Well, I guess there is one more reason. Induction cooktops almost always have a built in safety on-off setting. It can trigger itself off if it cannot find a magnetic cookware or it is on for too long or the current is too great or whatever reason.

As such, it may make more sense to have digital controller that can trigger back to zero and shut off instead of a potentiometer dial which is physically stuck at the last setting.

[Veggo]

Good point.

[GH1618]

That is a good point, but do people literally want a potentiometer, or do they actually want a rotary control with fine steps? A rotary control that sends up/down pulses to a digital controller can give the same effect, while the digital controller can still shut down the power when desired.

[Chemicalkinetics]

GH,

What is your best guess for the digital control scheme for induction cooking. In theory, the induction cooking environment is cleaner, so why a digital controller. I gave my best for the three explanations I can come up with. :)

It is your turn.

[kendunn]

Oddly enough I was answering this question while hoh were asking. See below post

[paulj]

I have a new toaster oven with 2 rotary controls - that as you say, sends up down pulses to an otherwise digital control. They are not particularly fun to use.

My previous toaster oven died when the timer gave out - you know the old ticking spring kind. In my experience, buttons and switches are some of the first things to go on older appliances. The phenolic knobs on my electric stove (22 yrs old) are breaking one by one. Generic knobs from the hardware store don't fit well, and brand specific ones are expensive. So I am now down to 2 coil burners, and the induction hot plate. I use the hot plate 80% of the time.

[kendunn]

You have broken 2 knobs in 22 years and complaining they don't hold up well? And what is expensive, $20 a pop shipped? Look up the cost for a circuit board for an induction is (which is very sensitive to power surges) . Or if you crack the top. A quick search show the board for the model I tried is $400 and the top $1400. The board for the oven on my gas is $90 and the knob is $9

[GH1618]

Interesting. I recently replaced an old toaster with mechanical controls. The new one has a digital display and a rotary knob that makes it count up or down. I'm not sure of the technology of the rotary sending unit, but I think it's a pleasure to use. The only thing I don't like is that there are too few steps.

Your coil burner stove has actual mechanical switches. Their time has passed.

[zzDan]

Look for small 4" vise grips. I have one I can send you for the right price. Works better than the original knob

[kendunn]

That is good and bad. Many complaints I heard when trying to decide what I wanted was it most models shut down for no reason and had to cool down before restart. Lest be honest here, you would have to be blind to not see the gas on.

[kendunn]

These days adjustable rheostats are digital controllers. Actually they may not even be rheostats but more like stepper controlers. A dead giveaway is if the device resents its level when cycled off or if it will turn 360.

[Chemicalkinetics]

:) I guess I am old school. :P

<A dead giveaway is if the device resents its level when cycled off or if it will turn 360.>

Good point about the 360.

[GH1618]

A rheostat would not be reliable in the long run. It is obviously impractical in a dirty kitchen environment, in my opinion.

[Veggo]

The vast majority of gas and electric stoves worldwide have manual controls that are rheostats or gas valves or equivalent, and most folks manage to keep the kitchen environment clean. I'm jaded about touch panels because of the $280 I'll take in the shorts for my dishwasher. Reliable? Heat is the enemy of semiconductors, and it's nearby in both appliances.

[kendunn]

The reason I had to upgrade was because my touch panel on my oven went out!

[Caroline1]

Homeowners/renter's insurance is the ONLY way to fly! The motor in my vent hood went out and is being replaced. Sixty bucks..

[kendunn]

Don't you have a deductible to meet? Mine is more than my range because of the cost of the policy. And if you go to the well too often they wont renew.

[Caroline1]

My monthly premium for homeowner's insurance is $36.00 a month. When I need a service call or repair, the fee is $60.00 and is all-inclusive, except when an item cannot be repaired and must be replaced entirely, in which case I have the option of accepting the "builder grade" dishwasher or refrigerator or whatever, or making up the price difference between that appliance and whatever upgrade I choose, but they still do the installation in most cases. I also carry surge protection insurance through my electric company for ten bucks a month that covers any and all damage done to any electric/electronic appliance/equipment I own that results from the power surges that follow the many power failures here in tornado country. The electric company policy is also covered by my home warranty insurance company. There is NO service call fee for repairs/replacements made under the electric company surge protection policy, and that is where I've suffered the most damage! My 120 inch home theater screen had to be completely replaced, the projector had to go back to the factory for repairs, my Yamaha sound projector had to go back for circuit board replacements, my computer had to be repaired once and completely replaced the second time, my garage door opener had to be replaced, among other things. Because all of these were due to power surge damage after power failures, the ten dollar a month premium I pay through my electric company is the only fee I have paid for any of these repairs/replacements. I also have water main/pipes repair insurance for another ten bucks a month through my water utility company. Unfortunately, I bought that two months after a $500.00 water main repair. I have lived all over the world, but never in a place where I have had this much damage from power surges, despite the fact that I am tripping over surge protectors and UPS. Without these homeowners policies I would have thousands of dollars out-of-pocket expenses just to hold my status quo.

Most of these policies are available to renters, as well as home owners, and they are a LOT cheaper than multiple extended warranties on individual appliances and electronics. But home owner insurance companies are not all created equally. You need to check out their reputation for living up to what they promise, as well as what the policy you are buying will cover. It's difficult to find a company that will cover food loss if your side by side goes down, or you have a three day power failure, and some companies add exclusions that exempts coverage of induction ranges, but that seems to be getting better. One of my power failures (3 days) cost me all of the food in my 25cf freezer plus all of the food in my 25cf side-by-side. Now when a power failure passes the three hour mark, I start stocking the freezers with dry ice and threatening anyone who even thinks about opening them! I'm still searching for an affordable food replacement policy.

Oh, and if you find a really good home warranty insurance company, as I have, you shouldn't have to worry about "going to the well too often." Been there, done that, and moved on to a better company.

[kendunn]

Is that $36 per month just for the warranty? Surely you don't mean all your homeowners is that? Mine is more than that with a huge deductible.

[Caroline1]

$36.00 a month is the prorated payment for the annual premium on my home owners warranty policy. In addition to that, if an appliance breaks, such as the fan motor in my island vent hood, there is an additional one time "service call fee" that covers all that that repair will cost. Now, this is a different kind of insurance than outright home owners insurance for damage to the house due to storms, lightning strikes, drunks thinking my house is a drive through, and "disasters" such as that. That insurance for me carries a premium of about $140.00 a month with a 2k deductible. What I'm talking about is a home owners warranty policy. If you've ever bought or looked at a previously owned home via a Realtor, the home owner's warranty (insurance) is often offered as an option to the buyer by the buyer's agent, or may be included in the selling price of the home for a one or two year period, with the cost covered by the seller as an incentive to attract buyers. Home owner's warranties originated in association with the real estate market and have spread to the general public. Unfortunately, not a lot of people are aware of them. Do a web search for "home owners warranty policies." You should get several hits if you're in the U.S. I have no idea whether they're available in other countries, but I would imagine so. Check it out!

[Fowler]

Caroline1 said:

"My monthly premium for homeowner's insurance is $36.00 a month. When I need a service call or repair, the fee is $60.00 and is all-inclusive, except when an item cannot be repaired and must be replaced entirely, in which case I have the option of accepting the "builder grade" dishwasher or refrigerator or whatever, or making up the price difference between that appliance and whatever upgrade I choose"

Would you mind disclosing the insurance company and the insurance agent so we may research the fine print and hopefully also share in that deal you have claimed that you have received? I would hope you would want to share with the rest of us 'hounders!

Thanks!

[zzDan]

I believe she (Caroline) is talking about an in the house appliance service contract for that $36/month. Refrigerators, stoves, washers etc etc ...... Kitchen waste disposals

[Fowler]

zzDan,

I knew that but thanks for your input even if it was stating the obvious :-) Hopefully Caroline1 will respond because that type of coverage varies among companies and even agents.

[Caroline1]

Not a problem. My home owner's warranty is with Allied Home Warranty, here:
http://tinyurl.com/93wzlu8
Under this program, I pay a montly preium, and in addition to that I pay a $50.00 service call fee for each disaster that overtakes me.

I get my $10.00 a month surge protection policy through my electric company, which is Reliant NRG, and with this (separate) policy there is no service fee in addition to the ten dollars per month I currently pay. You can check if Reliant offers gas and/or electric service in your area here:
http://tinyurl.com/8jak49j
Reliant has contracted with Allied Home Warranty to offer the special surge protection coverage through Reliant. The ten dollar a month fee is added to my electric bill, and is not available directly through Allied Home Warranty. However, it was because I was so pleased with the service under this set up that I switched my home warranty with another insurer to Allied. I do not know if Reliant NRG offers this in other states, but I assume the program is available throughout the parts of Texas they serve. If you have Reliant NRG service available in your area, call them and ask.

Some of you seem unfamiliar with home owner warranty programs, which is different from home owners insurance. As with ANY type of insurance, it's all caveat emptor, and some home owner warranty companies provide great service while others are about two cents better than useless. Your best hope lies in being a very pro-active shopper! Good luck!

[Fowler]

Thank you very much, Caroline1. I understood what you were referring to along the lines of "insurance" but zzDan unfortunately did not understand that.

Thanks for the info!

[Caroline1]

Hope it helps! :-)

[Caroline1]

Ooops! There's a typo above, and here I thought I knew how to proof read! <sigh> That should read, "Under this program, and in addition to that I pay a $60.00 service fee...." As in SIXTY...!!!

Sorry!

[GH1618]

The reason that mechanical electrical switches for old-fashioned electric ranges are reasonably reliable in a dirty kitchen environment is that they are big, heavy devices which carry a lot of current. Such a switch is vastly over-engineered for a digitally controlled device. Those who want such switches on their electric range are probably stuck with vintage equipment, because they are obsolete.

Switching gas is a different problem, because it is inherently mechanical. If you didn't control it directly from the knob, you would need a motor-driven valve, which would be more expensive and probably less reliable.

[Caroline1]

Not just you alone, GH1618, but several of you guys make statements you think are factual without knowing the current market. You can still get stoves and cooktops with with manual controls as well as smooth top electronic controls. Here is a selection from GE as an example.

coil with knobs
http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SpecPage&Sku=JP328SKSS

glass radiant with knobs
http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SpecPage&Sku=PP932SMSS

glass radiant smooth top (no knobs)
http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SpecPage&Sku=PP945SMSS

induction (no knobs)
http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SpecPage&Sku=PHP900DMBB

And finally, here is GE's knob controlled gas built in, which I find rather amusing as they have a setting on each burner marked "LITE." I am forced to assume they mean "LIGHT"" You drink a LITE soda, you LIGHT a fire! Anyway, here's what one of their gas cooktops looks like:
http://products.geappliances.com/Appl...

[GH1618]

Thanks, but I'm not shopping for a new cooktop. But the question isn't knobs or no knobs, but how those controls work on modern cooktops, and specifically on induction (which is the topic of the thread).

So, to put it in the context of "Why don't more Americans use induction," I have looked at a few portable induction units, and one I might be interested in has only 10 settings, from 150 °F up in 30° increments. This seems rather coarse to me. The question that was raised above was whether continuous (or near continuous) control is practical for induction devices. Since you are much more familiar with these than I, can you say whether there is any induction cooker with continuous controls, or with steps from, say, 120 °F up in 2 °F or 1 °C increments? At what cost?

[kendunn]

Yeah, I wasn't worried about the knobs either, until this thing was sitting in my kitchen and I was trying to get it to come on.

[GH1618]

Here's one with knobs:

http://www.vikingrange.com/consumer/p...

Still discreet, though, and it seems there are only six settings. And it's darned expensive. What they seem to be doing is trying to mimic a conventional smoothtop electric. That seems like a mistake to me. At the high end, they could afford to have near-continuous control.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Hey, there you go. You find the knobs for kendunn.

[kendunn]

Nice try guys, but its a tad pricey at $4500, and the only review didn't leave me warm and fuzzy. The gas equivalent was $1900.....

[zzDan]

Knobs for an induction stove have to be a lot quicker and intuitive than some bs leds you are going to tap on. Look how microwave ovens give you options. You can get the ones that are simple and with knobs or the ones you tap on to adjust the digital readout. Both versions sell

[Chemicalkinetics]

I cannot speak for everyone, but kendunn and I were talking about why do induction cooktops always have digital controls instead of knobs:

kendunn:
" Every induction I have seen looks like an ipod control rather than a burner control and..."

Me:

"As such, it [Induction cooking] may make more sense to have digital controller that can trigger back to zero and shut off instead of a potentiometer dial which is physically stuck at the last setting."

[kendunn]

Rheostats have been around a long time and well Provence and very easy to clean. Much less vulnerable than digital anything in a greasy environment.

[GH1618]

Evidently you've never owned an old radio with a dirty volume control.

[kendunn]

You're talking about something totally different. The reason old dirty radio controls are problematic is that its dealing with a really low audio signal that is amplified. If the control is dirty it doesn't take much to interfere with the few milliwatts going through there. Now take a stove control that is designed for kilowatts and no audio signal and you can see where this is going. Besides, all it takes is a blast with electric cleaner and all is well. Also high wattage controls are a nickle wire wrapped around a core with a slider making contact at various points, radio controls are a piece of carbon, much easier to get something on there surface to foul things up

[GH1618]

But that's exactly the point. In a vintage electric range, you are switching the power directly to the heating element. In an induction range, you are not switching the main power, merely sending control signals to the induction unit. It would not be cost-effective to use wire-wound rheostats for such an application.

I trust the engineers who design modern appliances to make appropriate choices for such things, considering the tradeoffs of cost, reliability, and usability. Some designs are better than others, of course, so you have lots of alternatives and you pick the one you like. But don't expect any designer of modern electric appliances to be putting a wire-wound rheostat in a toaster or induction hot plate. It's not likely to happen.

[kendunn]

You've gone off on a different tangent, the reason we started talking about knobs in the first place is that they are much easier to use. Like I said in a previous post one of the things I hated about the induction I tried was the fact that there was 4 buttons and a slider dial on a smooth top. You pressed the button to the corresponding burner and then it would allow you to adjust and visually check the level, but you lost the visual for the other burners. It wasn't very intuitive and I am sure just a cost saving/cleaning issue. My gas stove has five burners and five knobs that I can instantly check, plus the visual flame, and nothing wrong with that and takes 15 extra seconds to clean. Ipods have slider controls to control the size, but my Yamaha has a big round knob, just like the volume control in my car. But hey, what do I know, I am literally getting ready to fix pizza in my outdoor wood oven, listening to vinyl records, looking at the pictures on my wall that I shot with a film camera.......

[GH1618]

I see your point about having multiple elements sharing a control. That's a separate thing from how a control is implemented. If the implementation is bad, that should affect sales. The marketplace will reward good design and punish bad design, in my opinion.

[BobB]

That's just bad industrial design - ours is nothing like that, it has completely separate control for each burner. It's not a valid criticism of induction, just of that particular make & model.

[BobB]

I agree with unprofessional_chef - if you can say that, you've obviously never spent any significant time cooking on an induction range. I had a high-end glasstop electric, and the difference is profound. As (s)he said, induction heats up much faster, but even more important, it cools down immediately, a complete impossibility for any type of traditional electric. You can go from a raging boil to a simmer in two seconds, giving you far, far better control. It's like the difference between driving a sports car vs a semi truck - things happen when YOU want them to, instantly. Not to mention the ability to wipe up spills as they happen, even directly on the cooking surface, without any danger of scorching.

[kendunn]

I made that criticism on the model I had and yes it is a flaw with the implementation rather than the technology, but all I could find where I live. Induction has to have digital controls, and its very easy for manufactures to cheap out on those. The origianal post was why don t more Americans use induction and the answer is simple, it costs too much here and the efficiency savings would take several lifetimes to recoup. Any advantages induction has there is an equally significant advantage for gas.

[BobB]

"Any advantages induction has there is an equally significant advantage for gas."

That's true, and I was originally looking to get rid of my electric and put in gas. But then I found that it would cost me a bundle to get gas installed, and about that time a friend suggested I look into induction, which at that point I'd never heard of. The more I read, the more I liked, and now that I've had the range for the better part of a year, I'm absolutely delighted with its performance.

[kendunn]

The obvious solution is to go with something like this http://www.us-appliance.com/pm363i0x.... , and the price is actually not as bad as I would have thought. But of course you could go the cheap way like me and get a gas range for $650 (reg $1000, often on sale for $700, but my wife gets employee discount at Lowes) and get a hotplate that is induction.

[Caroline1]

You seem to have missed his point that gas would cost him a bundle to install. That is a problem for many of us. I live in a walled development that was originally out in the middle of nowhere surrounded by horse farms. For point of reference, Southfork Ranch of Dallas TV fame is about three miles up the road. The developer put in nice sized houses on nice sized lots (mine is 3/4 of an acre) but made the whole development of about 60 homes all electric. I wanted to bring in gas when I bought my house... It would have cost me $70,000.00 just to bring in lines and get a meter installed, then there would be the additional cost of cutting through the slab foundation to get it piped into my kitchen, and then the cost of the gas appliance and installation fees. Not cheap! When a home owner tells you it is too costly to convert to gas, they are usually not kidding. Pay attention! '-)

[Veggo]

The alternative is a large propane tank - I had a 350 gallon tank at my mountain house in Colorado - but some municipalities and HOA's restrict them for reasons unclear to me. If gas service is not yet available from a utility provider at your curb, it would not be a practical option to even think about doing an off site connection yourself.

[Caroline1]

The city of Plano has an ordnance forbidding bottled/tank-stored gas for any purpose other than a gas barbecue. But be that as it may, it would still be quite costly to cut through the concrete slab to bring a gas line to my kitchen island, and I do NOT want to relocate my cooktop from the island! As you know, it allows me to chat with people in the breakfast area while I'm stirring (or my machine is stirring) the risotto! I HATE stoves that face a wall! Besides, gas isn't very friendly towards my asthma. AND... I'm VERY happy with induction! But I am kicking myself for not going with it when I put in the electronic radiant cooktop. BUTTTTT... Now I'm waiting to see how well the full-surface induction cooktops work out. Damn! I've GOTTA start buying lottery tickets!

[Veggo]

I'm back in all-electric Florida, and cristina on the Mexico board has introduced me to one of the last authentic sources of hand forged copper, tin-lined, wrought iron- handled cookware in Mexico. It is incredible. And very expensive, as it ought to be. All that holds me back is that it is only appropriate for gas cooking, which is ubiquitous in Mexico and the other Americas, but impossible where I live now.

[kaleokahu]

Hi, Veggo:

Link to the Mexi copper?

Gracias,
Kaleo

[Veggo]

E-mail Cristina Potters at [e-mail] and ask her to refer you to the woman in Santa Clara Del Cobre near Patzcuaro who is carrying on James Metcalf's kitchen copper work. There is a web site with beautiful images, but older prices. The woman in Mexico does not speak english, and a buyer would have to go there to purchase items, I expect.

[kaleokahu]

Thank you.

[mikie]

That's an interesting arrangement that might have enen worked in our kitchen romodel. I had an electric cooktop, but also had a capped off gas line under the cabinet, so this would have been an option, but this is the first I've seen such a cooktop. We ended up 6 burner gas and used the other electirc line for the second oven.

[zzDan]

Induction is a lifestyle choice! I agree 99%. But what if you only get electric piped into your abode? Induction using your electricity more efficient than other electric cooking methods. But I'm with you, natural gas is the best and is cheaper than ever today. In 2008 it topped out at $13 per unit. Today it is around $2 per unit in America due to fracking. More expensive in Europe and Japan

[Caroline1]

If that is so, will you please explain to me why restricting my stove-top cooking to my portable induction unit instead of cooking on my radiant electric cooktop cuts my electric bill by at least #30.00 a month, no a dollar or two a year? PLEASE explain! I live in an all electric house with no possibility of gas at a reasonable price and I do like to save money. Please explain!!!!

[GH1618]

Perhaps you were using polished stainless steel or other low-emissivity cookware on your radiant cooktop.

[Chemicalkinetics]

<Perhaps you were using polished stainless steel or other low-emissivity cookware el >

That actually makes a huge difference.

[kendunn]

That works both ways, when I put in a gas stove my power bill didn't go down any. Do the math, where I live electricity costs $0.10 per KW/Hr. So, you would need a 1000 watt burner (1 KW) on for 300 hours to run up $30 in electric bills. In other words, a 2000 watt burner at half for 10 hours per day every day for a month. You had better look elsewhere for the problem, or switch back to gas!

[Caroline1]

I apparently don't live where you live. I have no way to "switch back to gas" because gas has never been a viable option in this house. Your "one size fits all" thinking that you grab from national statistics (from god knows what year) is not at all helpful. I see from his post below that BIGGUNDOCTOR lives in an all electric house and his average electric bill is under $40.00 a month. I don't doubt him. He lives very near the largest hydroelectric plant in the United States, and electricity is cheap in southern Nevada. I live in Plano Texas, and Texas is a very "unique" state. NOTHING is cheap here, not even oil if you live in the middle of an oil field. There is NO "one size fits all." To take a national average and insist it must apply to me, so I must be lying about the saving I have garnered from induction stove top cooking is ridiculous. Using that logic, BIGGUNDOCTOR must live in a doll house with a total of no more than 12 square feet of floor space.

In summation, and not just to kendunn, but also to all of you guys who seem to think I must be lying when I say using induction has cut my electric bill by thirty bucks a month, frankly, my dears, I don't give a damn what you think as long as it keeps doing it! I'm truly regretting being so open with all of you.

[zzDan]

Don't be like that, I have appreciated your input and comments and so have the other guys. And I say guys because this has evolved into a guys-tools-techie thread. Nothing wrong with that :) Men invented, designed, built, delivered, installed all these wonderful appliances you (and all women) love so we have a right (yes we do) to critique them. Don't take it personally

[kendunn]

No one is calling you a liar, but there is something you are missing. I have presented you with the science and the math and backed it up with government estimates. You say my power bill is less, but did you ever think it could be other reasons? Did you look at the cost per KW? Energy prices fluctuate and there is often a fuel cost surcharge that goes up and down when whatever fuel source they are generating power with changes. Also things like heating/cooling degree days have to be figured in, especially since that is what makes the biggest difference in utility costs. A 1000 watt burner uses 1KW of electricity per hour, look at your bill and do the math.

[cacruden]

A 1000 watt burner can produce "up to" x watts. Not sure if the watt rating is for electrical usage or output. If it is for output, it would be slightly higher in usage (at least that is how it works with computer power supplies -- a 500 Watt power supply outputs 500 watts but consumes closer to 650 watts). High temps are often used for shorter periods of time, you don't cook at high for hours.

I suspect that the control (1 - 10, 1-20) for temperature may not actually be linear, but more logarithmic, so you cannot make assumptions when calculating it. You would have to put a meter in-between the power supply and the unit to actually know what you are consuming.

I did a rough calculation 4 years ago where I live on using 1000 watt HID grow light in my condo and I figured it would cost me around $25 / month for using it 12 hours a day.

[kendunn]

Electrical output and input for resistive heat is, for practical purposes, 100%. The reasons other electrical items are less than 100% is because of what is lost in heat, like the transformer you mentioned in the power supply, or friction like a motor, but a burner obviously doesn't have a motor and you can't really loose heat since thats what you are after. You do however loose heat between the burner and pot, which is where the extra efficiency of induction comes from.

[Caroline1]

kendunn writes: "Electrical output and input for resistive heat is, for practical purposes, 100%."

BINGO!!! induction is NOT resistive heat!

[Veggo]

Now I'm curious. Does induction only draw power when it is activating a ferrous material? "How do it know?" I'm uneducated as to that aspect of the science behind it.

[kendunn]

It will shut down before any measurable amount is used because it doesn't have a pot on there.

[Caroline1]

Well, an induction unit will certainly use less electricity for the short duration it will stay on. Mine -- I think they all do -- has a sensor that sets off a beeping alarm if I put a non-ferrous pot on it, then gives me four or five seconds to correct my error before it shuts itself off. All induction units are fan cooled, and the fan continues running a short while after being turned off. The circuitry produces heat in the same manner as a computer does, and has to be cooled to stay long-term operational, but the circuitry does not produce enough heat to cook with. So while you could say that electronic circuitry produces some "resistive" heat, it's nothing close to the level produced by standard electric resistive cookers.

if you're curious about my remarks about how much more efficient cast iron and pure iron pots and pans are on induction than induction-ready stainless steel, then yes, the concentation/dillution of ferrous material modifies the performance of cookware. And here's an interesting bit of trivia for you: Pure iron is more rust resistant than cast iron! How about them apples? '-)

[Veggo]

So if I read this right, induction broadcasts ergs of directional energy into space like radio or micro waves, unless a nearby ferrous pan gets in the way to intercept it?

[Chemicalkinetics]

Induction cooking is nothing but an alternating electromagnetic field propagates into the space/air. If there isn't a ferromagnetic pan around, then the only circuit is the induction cooktop. When a pan is bought near, then you can think of the pan as part of the new circuit where the pan becomes the predominant load/heating element.

In effect, you can think of it just like the traditional resistive heating cooktop except the cookware itself is the resistive element.

[Veggo]

This gives me concern about inducing even a temporary magnetic field into what may be ferrous components of my not-inexpensive mechanical movement wrist watch as my hands are near the stovetop. I will make an inquiry to the manufacturer. I have had this concern previously with highly electromagnetic aircraft instruments.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Yeah, I used to work near huge super conductor magnets like FT-ICR and NMR type magnet, so I have several credit cards demagnetized. We used to play with mechanical watches near the super conductor magnets, but what I noticed is that the magnetic field only stopped the watches but did not do permanent damages. That is to say, the watches started moving after we move them away from the magnets. That being said, I was working with permanent magnets not alternating magnetic field like an induction cooktop, and of course a permanent magnet does not induce heat.

There were some safety studies done with heart pacers...etc. The studies concluded that, in normal circumstances, induction cookstops should not cause real problems, as we are usually fairly far away from induction cooktop. Still, it is probably better to not use an induction cooktop for a heart pacer patient -- just being caution. A watch is a minor issue. We can always take it off.

[Veggo]

I wouldn't always remember to take it off. And if it's value is equivalent to 4 or 5 induction stoves, it matters! I'll follow up with the manufacturer's guidance.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Oh, I read it wrong. I thought you said Not expensive. You wrote Not INexpensive. Got it. Yeah.... it is probably still fine because I think the pan will alternate the field and bring it closer to the stove, so your watch will be (relatively) further away. Still, no one wants to guarantee this sort of things. As mentioned, a couple of papers have indicated that induction cooking is most likely to be safe even for heart pacer implant patients. Yet, I don't know any manufacturers would promote this. Every manufacturers I know strongly discourage any implant patients using induction cooking.

[GH1618]

It's similar to a transformer or motor, except that the two parts are separate. An alternating current is generated in the primary, creating an alternating magnetic field. The magnetic field induces electric currents in the secondary (the pan).

[GH1618]

It isn't the power consumed by the electronic control circuitry that is the issue. This is insignificant. The power dissipated in the primary induction coil is the reason that cooling is needed.

Perhaps this is quibbling, depending on whether you consider the primary to be part of the "electronic circuitry."

[Chemicalkinetics]

<The power dissipated in the primary induction coil is the reason that cooling is needed>

Well, that is one, but am I correct to say that there is a counter load (whatever it is called) on the bottom of the coil? For example, the number 24 on this schematic diagram:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6630...

That I think also heats up.

[Veggo]

.

[GH1618]

I don't know what the ferrite (24) does, but I count that with the primary induction coil. I am drawing a distinction between the control electronics and the power components.

[Chemicalkinetics]

:) You are starting to count many things as part of the primary induction coil. My understand is that most induction cooktop has a ferro meal underneath the coil to alternate the field on the top. I cannot find my original source, but I remember this is to bring the field closer to the cooktop surface.

[GH1618]

The power is related to the conductivity of the secondary (the pot). With nothing on the cooker, the power will be lower. With a higher-conductivity pot (aluminum or copper) on the cooker, the power consumption will go up. The unit must shut down to protect itself. It "knows" by the current in the primary.

[kendunn]

Listen Caroline, you seem like a nice lady, and like I said before when it comes to cooking I probably couldn't hold a light on you, but if you want to talk energy you are way off. Induction may not be resistive, but the laws of physics (conservation of energy) still apply. You put in one watt of electric in, you are only getting (max) one watt out unless you are transferring energy from somewhere else, as in a heat pump. If that were not the truth, then you could build an induction powered steam generator that output more energy than was put into it and we would have perpetual energy and the worlds energy problems would be solved.

[Chemicalkinetics]

< laws of physics (conservation of energy) still apply.>

I no longer follow every posts here because they are coming in so fast. However, I have numerous debates with people on this boards around the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics.

I have read enough stuffs here about how these laws sometime do not apply. Sorry, they always apply. If they don't, then that is only because we did not take into account of all the elements.

For both traditional resistive and induction cooking, they are both bound by these laws. Energy has to be conserved. Energy In is always the same as Energy Out. The question is always What are the "In's"? and what are the "Out's".

For both types of cooking, the energy outs are (a) heating the pan and (b) heating the surrounding. Induction cooking has a higher ratio of pan versus surrounding than traditional resistive heating.

<Induction may not be resistive>

Depending who you talk to, some would say that induction cooking is just a different form of resistive cooking.

<utput more energy than was put into it and we would have perpetual energy and the worlds energy problems would be solved.>

Actually, no. The world would be destroyed if that is the cause as the force in the universe cannot be balanced. :P No, really. If that is true, the universe cannot hold.

[GH1618]

Of course "the laws of physics still apply" but induction cookers will nevertheless transfer a greater percentage of the power to the pan than other types of electrically powered cookers. Less energy is transmitted directly to the environment around the pan, so induction cooking is more efficient viewed at that scale. This is basic.

[Chemicalkinetics]

GH,

I think both Ken and you are correct, but you guys are completely talking about different things. Induction cooking is more efficient than traditional resistive heating. I don't think I have read that Ken denied it. What Ken said is that that the total energy in and total energy out are the same. This is the very fundamental of science. If we cannot agree this, then any further statements are useless.

Ken wrote that "Electrical output and input for resistive heat is, for practical purposes, 100%..... ",

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/834710#7563106

Caroline then wrote that "BINGO!!! induction is NOT resistive heat!"

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/834710#7563166

To which Ken replied "Induction may not be resistive, but the laws of physics (conservation of energy) still apply. "

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/8347...

[kendunn]

Not $30 per month worth. I don't dispute and have never disputed on here or anywhere else that they are more efficient, but when it takes 200+ years to recoup the additional cost people need to know this if they are thinking other wise. If I couldn't have gas I would try and get an induction, but not because I would ever come out financially.

[GH1618]

I'm not defending the $30/month claim. I'll stay out of that, thank you.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Let go back to the basic guys. I think we agree that induction cooking and gas cooking is about the same efficiency when everything is taken into account, and I believe this point has been driven home multiple times. So, we are now talking about traditional resistive cooking (resistive coil) vs induction cooking. Since both uses electricity, we do not have to worry about the source. Both resistive coil and induction cooking require smaller ventilation systems than gas cooking. We can just focus on the stovetop.

Induction is about 80-90% efficient for energy transfer from the stove to the pan. Resistive heating coil is about 50-55% . So basically, induction cooking, in theory, can cut the electric consumption of the cooking by a little less than half (90% vs 50%). Keep in mind that your entire electric bill is significantly more than just the cooking part.

As for how much you spend on cooking, everyone can do a pretty simple estimate.

[cacruden]

I disagree for the most part about the ventilation being able to be smaller by much, it is needed to vent the byproducts of cooking much more than heat. The more intense the heat, the more byproducts produced. It is usually oversized a little because it has to be sized according to maximum output produced by typically 4 burners. My induction hotplate wok which I have placed ontop of the resistive cooktop (2000W) on high (one burner) is actually overpowering the hood on high. I feel I can get away with it if I stir fry only one or two dishes which take a few minutes only, but the grease buildup around the kitchen area (over the hood, cabinets) have to be cleaned up more often and more thoroughly. If I am cooking for people, I move it out onto the balcony. If it were only hot air -- AC in most houses would be all that is necessary.

Of course sometimes if I make stir-fried beef with chilies and holy basil it can be like being hit by a wall of mace.... but of course I get that every once in a while at street level :o

[kaleokahu]

Hi, kendunn:

+1. If $30/month is being s(h)aved ONLY by virtue of switching from resistive electric to induction, there is 24/7/365/multiple unit cooking going on, and/or ASTRONOMICAL rates being applied. It's not sexist, it's just not realistic.

Aloha,
Kaleo

[Caroline1]

You guys are amazing! Had I told you that I sold my old SUV and bought a hybrid gas/electric car and was saving huge chunks of money, if you used the same logic on that as you're using on induction versus radiant, you'd be telling me about the laws of thermodynamics and that I COULD NOT POSSIBLY be saving that much money on gasoline! When you don't have to go to the pump as often, you DO save money! And this is exactly what happens when you cook with induction.

Point, Kiddo: Induction cooking is NOT the same technology as radiant/resistive cooking! Just as an electric engine cranks out mileage in a very different way than a combustion engine. I don't understand why you guys are having such a rough time understanding this!

But you're also right in that there are other factors that come into play with reducing my electric bill by converting to induction cooking for stove top applications. With induction, there is relatively little heat released into the kitchen, but there was a lot of heat loss into the kitchen with the radiant cook top. When I cook with induction, I use cast iron or pure iron instead of induction ready stainless steel because it is MUCH faster and far more responsive. That cuts down how much time I have to have the power turned on. With my induction unit and cast iron, I can heat a my cast iron grill to sear/broil a sous vide steak in one or two minutes at a preset of 5 (midpoint of 10 presets) on the induction unit. If I had an induction ready stainless steel grill, I am quite certain it would take at least half again as much time on a much higher setting simply because it does not have as much ferrous material in it, and the ferrous material it does have has to heat up the non-ferrous materials before it gets hot enough to cook the food at the temperature I desire. Basic!. On my radiant cook top it would take a minimum of about ten minutes, as I recall, at maximum temperature to get my cast iron grill to that smoking temperature to finish off a sous vide steak. AND there IS a direct correlation between how quickly cooking vessels heat up and their iron content.

When you convert from either standard electric or gas cooking to induction cooking, you have to learn how to cook all over again! Your cookware behaves differently. Things go much more rapidly than with standard cooking methods, and "mise en place" is CRITICAL! If I stop to look for a spatula the housekeeper didn't put away correctly, my eggs will be burnt! Induction cooking is a whole different ball game, and last time you and I talked about induction, as I recall, you had never actually cooked with induction but were reverting to a wood stove. I get the feeling that all of you guys who are harping about the laws of thermodynamics and how they apply to my electric bill haven't ever cooked with induction. It is a different ball game and my analogy about cars does fit the bill here!

[Veggo]

Caroline, keep making your sous vide eggs on your mushroom rissotto, and ignore these doubting Thomases. I know your real deal.
Veg

[Caroline1]

'-)

[kaleokahu]

Thou dost protest too much. No harping here, Car. It's mostly a priori--just math. Sorry. If you're saving $30/month in electricity, good on you.

Aloha,
Kaleo (D. Thomas)

[Caroline1]

That's okay. But damned if I'm going to tell ANYBODY how much my electric bill drops next month after converting all of my can lights in the kitchen to special 16w LED floods that flood my kitchen with light and only sip electricity through a very narrow straw. Ain't nobody's business but my own! '-)

[mikie]

I hope this reply ends up in the right place. RE, can lights. Your environment is much more controlled than mine, so yes, I would like to know, as I put in all LED can lights in the kitchen remodel and in the laundry room and am replacing them theroughout the house as the old light burn out. I also put in LED lights under the cabinets and in one cabinet that has glass doors on it. However for us guys that like math, this is a relatively easy calculation with a twist. It's easy to count watts and hours to get kW hrs of electricity and there's no question you are saving watts, lots of them. But you have a unique ability to also guage how much less electricity you use to cool the house since you aren't heating it up with incondessent or halogen lighting and are using cool LEDs. This may also be part of your $30 savings with induction vs resistive electirc cooking. If you are not heating the house with lost heat, you don't have to remove that heat with AC. Maybe not an issue in the north, but a big deal in TX in the summer. Anyway, I applaud you for making the switch to LEDs, the owner of the lighting store where I bought some of the LEDs has spent a lot of time and money on LED research and a light lab in the store to show people how they work. He figured the payback in his kitchen alone was just a matter of a few months. Relatively easy math, replace 120 watts with 16 watts, no one can argue that one.

[Caroline1]

As I just stated in a response to zzdan, using national statistics and kilowatt hour costs to calculate ANYONE'S utility bill is absolutely MEANINGLESS unless you know a great deal about the individual house you are dealing with. You know nothing about mine! "Science and math"? I've seen little to no evidence of applying it in a meaningful way. You keep insisting on a one-size-fits-all approach, and it just doesn't work.

In six days I will turn 79 years of age, and I have had several interesting careers, including as an interior designer, architectural consultant, and interior design instructor. Drawing on that experience, I can tell you unequivocally that there is a large number of factors you are completely ignoring. All sorts of things play into how and how much energy will be utilized in any individual home or building. As an architectural consultant, I have had to point out to the architect of the renovation of a high end fashion boutique that his new halogen lighting for window displays and floor space highlights will call for an increase in cooling because broad use of halogen lighting, while giving excellent visual color rendering to customers, will heat up the place and must be compensated for! A home's insulation AND lighting will impact on any home’s energy efficiency. CFLs will help cut how much electricity a home draws for lighting, but it carries an unadvertised penalty when used as direct (as opposed to bounced/deflected) lighting because fluorescent light emits UV light that will damage/fade reds. Attic insulation and ventilation impacts heavily on a home’s energy consumption. Is the house shaded by trees? What is the climate? My beachfront condo in California required no heat pumps, but my home in Dallas sure does!

Bottom line here is that your magic formula and killowatt cost is about as useful as a one wheeled bus! THINK!!!

[cacruden]

If you do not try to calculate all inputs and outputs, how do you come up with an accurate measurement of how much more it will cost? I watch my electrical bill and it will jump up and down (3500 baht/$120 month up to 4500 baht/$150+ per month). Some months I wil use my induction hotplate (2000watt) daily, sometimes not at all as I pick up at street level (and my bill will go in the opposite direction I expect). Part of it has to do with how/when they read the meter (in my old place in Canada they would read the meter every 6 months then charge electrical based on average, then the next 6 months my electrical bill will be adjusted based on actual, and adjusted monthly for the next 6. My electrical bill has more to do with Computers than the rest (no water tank - flourent lighting - AC). I am actually not even careful, most often leaving the AC on while I am away for days :p

[Caroline1]

How I calculated how much money my induction portable unit was saving me was by checking how much my electric bill dropped in the first three months I used it, as well as checking and averaging my utility bill for that same three month period in the two previous years. No. I didn't worry about cost per kw hour.

But look, just because it saves that much for me does NOT mean it will save that much for you unless I sell you my house.

[mikie]

What I think your detractors are saying, and you stated simirly above, it's difficult to attribute all $30 of your savings to the switch to induction cooking from resistive cooking. There are too many variables other than just the cooktop to take into account. Obviously, what and how much you cooked during that period would have an effect. What was the ambient temperature during that period, was that different than the comparison period? What was the kW hr electric rate of the two periods that are being compared? Those are just some of the variables that are in poeples minds. I don't think anyone disagrees that you saved money, but you are dealing with nit pickers here and without a good controled environment and set of conditions, anything you state will be scrutinized.

[Caroline1]

Well, from my viewpoint it wasn't me that got it wrong. I assumed they knew that not all houses are alike. I assumed they knew that there will be other factors -- such as the nature of induction versus the nature of combustion or radiant cooking, as well as the environment of/in my house, but "they" started in on kilowatt hours and laws of thermal dynamics and how it would take longer than my remaining lifetime to recoup the cost.

To me, that kind of argument is pretty similar to insisting that all cars must get the same gas mileage because gasoline in an Internal combustion engine burns at xxxx degrees, so how could I go further on a tank of gas than everybody else? I do know that some of the "detractors", as you call them, have never used induction, yet they think the laws of thermodynamics makes them an expert. Developmental science is about trying to figure out ways to bend the rules, or at least get around them. And when compared to gas or resistive electrical cooking, induction is certainly bending the rules! '-)

[kaleokahu]

Hi, Car: "[H]ow could I go further on a tank of gas than everybody else?"

Well, that's the question, isn't it?

If--as is true for an average American household--your cooktop amounts to 3-4% of your total electrical usage, and if your appliance is only 10-12% more efficient than resistive (See, "Technical support document for residential cooking products. Volume 2: Potential impact of alternative efficiency levels for residential cooking products. (see Table 1.7). U.S. Department of Energy, Office of Codes and Standards."), you must have either: (a) astronomical rates; or (b) astounding usage, to be realizing $30/mo savings solely by switching to induction. Commercial kitchens serving 250 meals/day do not have that realization rate. The statistics suggest that the *yearly* savings--for a family of four--would approach $25.

But hey, if you're getting 100 mpg from a Prius, tell us how to do it.

Aloha,
Kaleo

[Chemicalkinetics]

<yet they think the laws of thermodynamics makes them an expert.>

I understand a simple fact that it is impossible to get >100% energy efficiency. (More energy out than energy going in -- yes, that is bound by the laws of thermodynamics)

Resistive electric coil has an efficiency about 55% on the real low side to about 75% on the high side. Induction cooking has a high side of 90%. Even if you use the worst case of coil cooking (55%), you cannot double the efficiency of it -- since that will be 110%, and you certainly cannot triple or quadruple the efficiency.

Most household spend about 3% on cooking. Let's say you cook three times as much as most households, and were spending 10% of your electric bill on the old electric coil (which is very high), and let's say you improved the efficiency of your cooking from 55% to 90% by using induction (best case improvement), this will bring your stovetop bill downfrom 10% to 6% of the total electric bill, which means you were saving 4% of your monthly bill. Most people cannot detect a 4% reduction of their electric bills as a real change vs a fluctuation. e.g. $750 in one month vs $720 in the next month.

So when you said that you were able to save $30 per month by using induction cooking, what was your average electric bill per month?

*Edited* Now, if we go by kaleo's numbers, then the percentage saving is 0.3% (3% x 10%), so the electric bill will need to be $10,000 per month to have a $30 per month saving.

[Caroline1]

Jeez, Ck, you're perpetuating the problem of extreme quasi-scientific myopia here! Or is it only because you like to argue with me in particular? Your "line of logic" is TOTALLY illogical simply because you are misapplying it, and in the overall question of why my personal savings may be atypical, it is damned close to being irrelevant. To put it simply, my savings are atypical because my house is atypical. The bottom line is that square footage and air flow patterns of my whole house, as well as the layout of my kitchen, are but two of the critical factors that play into my personal savings. And at this point, I feel no compulsion to disclose this kind of personal information to you. If you can't grasp the concept, that's your problem, and not mine.

[Chemicalkinetics]

<Or is it only because you like to argue with me in particular? >

I am not the first person (or even the first 3 persons) who had questions about the $30 saving, nor I am the one who have the most questions, so I am not that particular.

<The bottom line is that square footage and air flow patterns of my whole house, as well as the layout of my kitchen, are but two of the critical factors that play into my personal savings.>

Whatever large saving you think you may have achieved, it isn't because of induction cooking. It is something else.

[kendunn]

You keep being presented with facts and argue them saying no power bill is the same, but then when we ask you for your cost per KW or your total bill you don't answer. Well, you said you were from Plano, TX, so it took me about 10 seconds on Google to find out the cost per KW/hr in Plano is $0.13, not dramatically different than the $0.10 we were using or what the DOE was using to figure the average cost per year to cook was $50. Its easy to figure from that, a medium 1000 watt burner wide open will cost $0.13 cents per hour to run. Add in another couple of cents for AC recovery (at best, and this isn't all year long, half the year you benefit from lost heat) and you see how hard it would be to get $30 in savings.

You know, I don't really care except for one thing, if you are telling people they can save up to $30 on their power bill by upgrading to induction then you have mislead them (unless it is a commercial kitchen). Induction is great. Personally I like gas because it is just more "fun" for me. I have an induction hot plate and only use it to boil water, because its dull.

[cacruden]

It is funny that we have got stuck the savings of $30 by moving from resistive to induction, I have to doubt the savings..... but in the end that part of the equation is not really that important..... There will be some savings, whether it is $5, $10, $20, $30 that I don't doubt. I prefer gas, but sometimes what you prefer -- you can't have..... because it is not economical or practical. Induction is a reasonable second choice in my view, much better than resistive. I actually have an induction hotplate sitting on top of the built in cooktop (rental unit) because the resistive cooktop is crap (tempurature too low, and takes too long to adjust or cool down).

[lcool]

Nit picking aside,the savings is real.The total savings may not be reflected SOLELY
or ENTIRELY on a meter placed on the device.However the savings are for many significant.
I humbly suggest my posts on and after 31 August for expanded examples.All of which are completely unscathed in this discourse.Caroline 1 is dead on about the savings,without ever having claimed "it's just the device".Which I might add has been assumed by many.
English isn't my first language or fourth,yet I had no problems with the use/ grammar in all C1 wrote.ZERO CONFUSION FOR ME

[kendunn]

In the 80's I was writing computer programs to calculate the heat load/loss for buildings, so I know something about it, too. I was state certified to teach HVAC, state and federally licensed, very fluent in manual J load calculations, and belonged to the Refrigeration Service Engineers Society.
Its really easy to put an end to this, tell us your cost per KW. Its on every power bill. I just looked at one site that said at $.10 per KW, under typical use, it would take 215 years to recoup the extra $1000 induction costs, under heavy use, only 73.

[lcool]

These related groups of factors are all I have used posting here to agree with you.Yet if they are being read,I am coming out of this unscathed with the naysayers.
.......curious

[Sid Post]

The laws of physics are the same for all types of cooking. The question is what you do with the electricity (or gas BTU's) you put into your appliance. Power generation and transmission line losses outside our houses is something most of us have absolutely no control over.

Based on limited usage with portable hot plates, I could see a real savings in electricity for the simple reason that my pan gets hotter MUCH faster on induction versus the disc hot plate. Both are advertised at the same "wattage". The extra electricity from the disc hot plate is going somewhere other then my pan.

A pad of butter melts and bubbles in seconds on induction but, not with the disc hot plate. What the disc hot plate does with that extra electricity is a mystery to me. It also stays hot when I am done cooking so, there is wasted heat energy there too.

[kendunn]

The extra heat goes into the surrounding air.

[Chemicalkinetics]

<The extra electricity from the disc hot plate is going somewhere other then my pan.>

The surrounding.

< What the disc hot plate does with that extra electricity is a mystery to me.>

Thermal mass of the coils.

Edited:
Opps.... didn't mean to response to you.

The energy saving of changing from traditional electric coil to induction cooktop is probably less than changing two of your incandescent light bulbs to compact fluorescent lamps.

[Caroline1]

lcool writes:
"These related groups of factors are all I have used posting here to agree with you.Yet if they are being read,I am coming out of this unscathed with the naysayers.
.......curious"
...........................................................................

LOL! You noticed! I love you! '-)

[kendunn]

Oh, and happy birthday!!!!!

[Sid Post]

I guess the thermal mass must be a lot more then it appears to be. The De Buyer pans aren't lightweights themselves but, I guess there is some extra thermal mass to deal with with the traditional hot plate that slows things down and cuts the efficiency that I see with the Induction hot plate.

[Chemicalkinetics]

<I guess there is some extra thermal mass to deal with with the traditional hot plate that slows things down and cuts the efficiency>

I won't call the slower heat response is the same as the loss of efficiency. It isn't entirely wrong, but people don't define it as such.

Think of it this way. There are many people here who push for thicker and heavier cookware, such as All Clad, Demeyere...etc. Thicker and heavier cookware by their very definition have larger thermal mass, but I don't think anyone would say that the thick Demeyere cookware is less efficiency than the thin T-fal cookware from Walmart despite the fact that the Demeyere cookware does take longer to heat up and longer to cool down than a thinner aluminum cookware.

[kendunn]

Remember there are different types of energy transfers, conduction is from a coil burner and the lost efficiency is convection (transferred through the air), but induction is electromagnetc radiation that reacts with the iron in the pan creating heat

[Caroline1]

YAAAAAAAAY....! Bravo! '-)

[Chemicalkinetics]

Good points.

[Caroline1]

Thank you! "-)

[Chemicalkinetics]

Happy B-day too.

[Caroline1]

Thanks, but I can't figure out how I got here so fast! The older you get, the faster time passes. Einstein left that entirely out of his theories of relativity! Both of 'em! '-)

[kaleokahu]

They say in the end it's the blink of an eye. Many returns of the day.

Aloha,
Kaleo

[PepinRocks]

Kendunn,

Science and math don't factor into it. This is a religious argument. Any "facts" that don't fit the belief system simply don't apply. It is what it is.

There is BELIEF and then there is truth and reality. What one PERCEIVES to be true ... apparently equates to actual truth ... Perhaps when the rest of us are retired we can also have the world work as we wish it to :-)

[ladooShoppe]

I recently had this debate with a friend who is in love with his induction cooktop. My husband and I are in love with our gas stove. My friend claims to be able to boil water in 60 seconds, while on our gas stove, it takes somewhere around 3-5 minutes depending on the amount of water being boiled.
He says he likes that the stove surface is not "too hot" afterwards, which is ideal for kids and he says with gas, sometimes kids become forgetful and may forget to turn off the gas. His Chinese wife didn't look too pleased when he mentioned that she can't use her regular wok on it; she had to buy an induction wok.
I think he just likes all the buttons!

[kendunn]

I bought an induction range a few weeks back after much reading on gas vs induction and didn't care much for it (going from resistive electric). I sent it back and got a gas and love it. Its nothing too fancy, just a nice Frigidaire, but I love the feedback you get from gas. Picking up the pans, tilting, etc is just great with gas. I did however buy one of those induction hot plates for the kids to boil pasta, and its great for that.

[danna]

Wow...I can't imagine how much of a pain it must have been to have a range installed and then sent it back and get a different one!

[kendunn]

It was a mess, but not nearly as much trouble as getting an LP tank, plumbing my house for gas, installing a new, more powerful vent, etc, lol.
Maybe I didn't give it a fair shake, but I really love my gas. Also it wasn't some $4000 Viking, but a $1800 Samsung, so that may make a huge difference. That and the fact there was a wire off from the factory and I had to fix that to get it to even come on.

[danna]

Indeed, the whole LP tank situation with replumbing and particularly the problem of re-filling the tank, is why i never went gas, although I really wanted it. But I'm quite pleased w/ my new induction cooktop. My only complaint is the digital controls. I expect them to break any day now.

[kendunn]

The digital controls are what I hated worse than anything. My stove shouldn't be a big ipod I kept thinking. I was kinda lucky on the tank, I bought a 100 pound and the propane company was running a special to fill them for $50, which is half price. I used to be a HVAC installer, so the piping wasn't really a problem, and the hood I love!

[PepinRocks]

That's how I feel about Induction - it's good for "point solutions" like a single fob for helping out as a food warmer or boiling water, etc. I would never consider it for a cooktop. Gas provides more flexibility and that tactile feel that no electric knob can match.

[paulj]

I prefer to judge a gas flame by sight rather than by touch.

With induction I play it by ear - the sizzle in the pan is my biggest clue as heat strength.

[zzDan]

The NYTimes has an article about induction stoves. They show a Manhattan restaurant where all the cooking has to be done in the basement. They only use induction cook tops. I can see this as a good idea to cut down on the heat in a poorly ventilated place

[Caroline1]

Can you give a link to the NYT article, please? Thanks.

[zzDan]

Here it is Caroline:

The cooks at Marlow & Sons, a 45-seat restaurant in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, work only on five tabletop units spread across a bench in a basement. Creating dishes that require less stove space and retraining the cooks was a challenge, said the chef, Sean Rembold.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/din...

[Caroline1]

Thanks big bunches! An interesting article, but it is two years old. Induction seems to be hitting a phase where innovations are coming faster and faster but the information is not well distributed to the general public, and if it is, it's too often in such a manner that the public doesn't understand it.

It's curious how the restaurant pictured on the website article chose to go with multiple single burner "portable' induction units instead of built-ins, whether upstairs or down. I THINK* (but I'm not absolutely certain) that Bernardin (Eric Ripert's NYC crown jewel) has full out commercial induction "cooktops" installed. If you've ever watched his PBS show, "Avec Eric," on that show his cooktop is induction, though he doesn't talk about it much. He just seems to take induction as a given, as many European chefs do. Thanks for the citing!

[Diana1946]

Unfortunately, most Americans have never heard of induction cooking. But we are also used to our gas ranges, and many strongly prefer cooking over a flame they can see. Induction offers so many advantages over standard electric cooking, but these are not yet appreciated. Facing the decision myself about a new range for a long-overdue kitchen renovation, I began investigating the question of possible health risks resulting from the combustion products of gas within the home -- even with proper maintenance and ventilation. Last week, I raised this question on this thread and on a new thread I started (which has apparently been discontinued.) Instead of responding immediately to the early replies to my postings, I spent time weeding through articles and studies on the subject, so that I could find some answers and offer more credible information. I had a busy week, and didn’t keep up with the online discussion. But I have found a number of varied research articles about the health risks of gas cooking. As always in science, no one study proves anything. A few studies reported little or no measurable danger. But it seems to me there is a clear pattern of risk here — especially for young children, adolescents, women, and professional cooks. The range of reported risks include lung functioning, asthma, respiratory illnesses, lung cancer, allergies, infant development, and even IQ and ADHD in children.

Several responders pointed out that we do things everyday that are more dangerous than gas cooking. That’s true. But doesn’t that make it all the more important to try to control those health and environmental risks that we can control, however small or delayed they may be? Personally, I have now decided to buy an induction range for my kitchen remodeling, and am very pleased with this prospect. Cooking is such an essential and pleasurable part of our lives, and now I can look forward to cooking without any worry about the air quality of my kitchen or the energy I am wasting. And I can boil my favorite pasta dishes (I'm Italian) in half the time!

Here are the websites I found, starting with scientific studies, and ending with several overview articles that take a strong position:

http://news.health.com/2010/02/19/gas-cooking-might-up-your-cancer-risk/
Gas Cooking Might Up Your Cancer Risk - Health News - Health.com
(Frying Meat with on a gas range poses greater risk than on an electric range. Many additional sites describe this study).

http://www.drgreene.com/blog/2009/05/23/gas-stoves-iq-adhd-0
Gas Stoves, IQ, & ADHD | DrGreene.com
(Detrimental effects on preschool children

)

http://www.rense.com/general18/risk.htm
Kitchen Air Pollution Risk From Gas Ranges Revealed
(British study

)

http://www.hopkinschildrens.org/newsDetail.aspx?id=5484
Research Confirms It: Noxious Gas Stove Emissions Worsen Asthma Symptoms in Young Children
(Study of inner city US homes)

http://thorax.bmj.com/content/52/suppl_3/58.full.pdf
Domestic gas appliances and lung disease
Brigham and Women’s Hospital & Harvard University
(Scientific study, finding harmful effects on British women of having gas stove in the home

)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1391076.stm
BBC News | HEALTH | Teen health risk of gas cookers

http://thorax.bmj.com/content/56/7/536.full
Effect of gas cooking on lung function in adolescents: modifying role of sex and immunoglobulin E -- Corbo et al. 56 (7): 536 – Thorax
(Scientific description of the adolescent studies

)

http://www.bukisa.com/articles/129741_health-risks-of-gas-cooking-
Health Risks of Gas Cooking
(Overview of a number of studies in Scotland and elsewhere

)

http://blogs.washplus.org/iaqupdates/2012/01/gas-cooking-emissions-can-stifle-infant-development/
Gas cooking emissions can stifle infant development. — Indoor Air Pollution (IAP) Updates

http://erj.ersjournals.com/content/36/2/249.full
Gas cooking is associated with small reductions in lung function in children

http://www.topnews.in/health/exposure-noxious-gas-stove-emissions-worsens-asthma-kids-24871
Exposure to noxious gas stove emissions worsens asthma in kids | TopNews

http://www.sustain.ubc.ca/sites/sustain.ubc.ca/files/seedslibrary/APSC%20262%20Induction%20Stovetops%203.pdf
“An introduction into induction and natural gas stoves”

http://ukpmc.ac.uk/articles/PMC1719977/reload=0;jsessionid=V31kfDvrSuDCQYPCOkfW.2
Household gas cooking: a risk factor for respiratory illnesses in preschool children
(Scientific study in Hong Kong

)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1167044.stm
Gas cooking threat to lungs
(“The study found that tiny particles of pollution produced when gas is burned seem to have an inflammatory effect when passed over lung cells in the laboratory.”

)

http://www.elements.nb.ca/theme/fuels/illness/caused.htm
Natural Gas: Avoidable Health Hazard
(Overview, citations not up to par

)

http://keelynet.com/biology/natgas.htm
Natural Gas Hazard
(Canadian overview, concerning public policy

)

http://www.ehow.com/way_5296648_health-risks-cooking-gas.html
Health Risks of Cooking With Gas | eHow.com
(Brief overview

)

http://www.environmentalhealth.ca/sum...
Health Hazards of Natural Gas
(Overview, citations not up to par)

[John E.]

How often do you fill your own car's fuel tank with gasoline? It is my understanding that you will inhale more fumes in one gas tank fill than in months of cookng with either natural or LP gas. Maybe it is a good idea to live in New Jersey or Oregon.

[cacruden]

Did you look up the risk of cooking near strong electro-magnetic fields? :p I don't see people rushing to live underneath high-power electrical lines because of this type of radiation.

[zzDan]

This is why I would never buy an induction stove. A pregnant woman should not be using one. Why would I go out of my way to expose myself and family to powerful magnetic fields? So natural gas is the best for me. It burns with a clean blue flame and is releasing minimal pollutants into the house.

The induction hucksters tell you it is 84% efficient while gas is lower at 50-60%. This is half true. They are only measuring the efficiency from the point of entry of gas or electric into your house. This does not include the inefficiency of generating electricity then losing even more over the power lines to your house before it gets to your induction stove. More and more electric in USA is generated by burning natural gas. It is obviously more efficient to burn gas in your home for cooking than to burn gas (or coal) in a power plant, send that electricity into your house and into your induction stove

[Chemicalkinetics]

<Why would I go out of my way to expose myself and family to powerful magnetic fields?>

Magnetic field should be very safe. There is no evidence that magnetic field can harm a normal human beings (unless you have implants). This is why you can do MRI -- which one huge magnet way more powerful than any induction stove.

<They are only measuring the efficiency from the point of entry of gas or electric into your house.>

Yes, I repeated this point many times here. I agree.

[zzDan]

Sorry. Still against magnetic fields of that order from an induction stove. I would never stand near microwave ovens for a long time. Other can knock themselves out. How efficient do you think gas is versus induction? Taking everything into account meaning generation, transmission, conversion by induction versus natural gas being using right at the point of application

[Chemicalkinetics]

<Sorry. Still against magnetic fields of that order from an induction stove. I would never stand near microwave ovens for a long time.>

Microwave is actually more dangerous than magnetic field in my opinion, but I think we just have to agree to disagree. :)

<How efficient do you think gas is versus induction?>

Not speaking in the future, in the US, they are about the same efficiency in my opinion. Induction cooking has many advantages, including precision heat control. However, it is not more efficient. Interestingly, induction cooking is less efficient in third world countries where their power plant conversion to electricity is lower than that of US.

[zzDan]

Thanks and good point about third world countries. Even a place like Greece or Turkey or Portugal which are not poor. I'll bet the way electric is generated and transmitted in those places would make induction stoves very expensive. Not to mention brownouts in poorer nations. Your propane or natural gas would not suffer from a brownout

[Caroline1]

Ck, from a consumers viewpoint, the efficiency with which my energy producing utility companies produce the energy they deliver to my home is beyond my control. The ONLY thing I can control is how efficiently I use that "ready made" resource. Your point that induction is less efficient because my power company does not produce electricity in an efficient way is like throwing out the baby with the bath water. The ONLY control I have is over how efficiently I use the ready-made energy my utility company delivers to me. I think your argument is pretty close to smoke and mirrors. I loves ya, Baby, but this is my viewpoint and I'm sticking to it!

[Sid Post]

One thing natural gas and propane have over various electricity based appliances is that they work after storms (high winds) that take down transmission lines. I'll gladly trade a few percentage points of possible efficiency for the ability to use them after the storm.

Any yes, I prefer gas cooktops/stoves and like gas home heat and water heaters. It's nice to have heat in winter when the power lines are down.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Yes, it is true that induction is more efficient at your home. What I am trying to tell others is that it is incorrect to say induction cooking is environmentally friendlier than gas cooking.

I didn't say induction is less efficient. I said they are about the same. My statements are far from smoke and mirrors. They talk about the core of the issues and not around it. They discuss the entire energy process. How the entire process affects our environment. Green house gases are green house gases. The Earth does not know if they are generated at your home (gas cooking) or if they generated at the power plants (induction cooking). To paraphrase some well known political speeches: the environment does not just stop at our front door.

Let's use this example:

If everyone suddenly switch from gas cooking to induction cooking tomorrow, the Earth is not getting any greener. This is the bottomline, and it is important to talk about the real bottomline -- how will it actually affect the Earth.

[zzDan]

A few times I have had to explain to people that a Vornado electric heater (price $150) doesn't put out any more heat than a cheapo one that costs $25. All home electric heaters have a limit of 1525 watts. I also tried to explain that a tube type radiant electric heater might feel warmer due to the radiant heat hitting your skin but it too is limited to 1525 watts.

All the vornado does is blow that lousy 1525 watts around the room or right at you. I see this as similar to the science gap here on induction stoves. I've said it before --- I love the induction stove propaganda about induction being the most efficient. What they omit is induction is the most efficient if only consider what happens in your home from where the electric or gas enters your home. Not the inefficiency of generating electricity a hundred or more miles away (often by burning natural gas lol) and bringing it to your doorstep

[paulj]

In the long run, using natural gas to generate electricity is a stop gap measure. Electricity can be generated by zero-CO2 emissions methods, gas cannot. Gas is currently relatively cheap, in large part thanks to fracking.

For me, as for Caroline, using induction clearly has advantages, because the alternative is conventional electric. We aren't hooked up to gas. And we've both taken the inexpensive route, an induction hot plate (with butane canister as the gas backup).

[Chemicalkinetics]

I understand that induction has clear advantages. I have repeated the advantages here many time here. It is just that it is not environmentally greener or friendlier, so let just talk about other advantages and not push for the environmentally cleaner or power efficiency arguements, because they are not true.

As for the future, yes, but that is the future. It has not happened yet and it will not be happening anytime soon.

If someone want to say that "induction cooking in 50 years from now will be more environmental than gas cooking of today". Great. So be it, but it ain't today, and not the next 10 years neither. Let's just be clear.

I know you are an engineer. I am sure you read articles about the new electric cars of Leaf and Volt. That these electric cars are not environmentally better than gasolline cars because the difference is CO2 generated from your cars (gasoline) vs CO2 generated from the power plants (electric cars). In fact, many scientists believe it xan be worse because most power plants run coal which is less clean than gasoline.

Look, electric cars will have a cleaner foot print maybe in 20-30 years, but not now. It is wrong to say an electric car of today is cleaner for the environment than a gasoline car. In the future, maybe. But am I really saving the Earth by buying an electric car right now? I doubt it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetec...

[Caroline1]

Chemicalkinetics writes about induction cooking: "It is just that it is not environmentally greener or friendlier, so let just talk about other advantages and not push for the environmentally cleaner or power efficiency arguements, because they are not true."
--------------------------------------------------------------------

One more time around the dance floor, Babe, because it absolutely *IS* true! By cooking on induction exclusively when it comes to anything stove top (except for the tagine I did on my gas hotplate) I have cut my electric bill by $30.00 a month for at least six months now. Maybe a year? That means induction is allowing me to reduce my energy consumption. If EVERYONE who cooks on radiant electric converted to induction, can you imagine what the energy savings would be? It is a "green" conservation product!

Let's talk about China, for example. The Chinese government is heavily pushing induction for not just cooking, but on-demand induction water heaters too, and anything else that induction can provide a heat source for in home applications BECAUSE it means that more families can cook from their finite electrical resources than could if everyone used radiant electric cooking instead of induction. And THAT is what makes induction green!

We have the IDENTICAL problem in the United States. Every spring the whole country is threatened with roving black outs or brown outs if too many people run their air conditioners at the same time. The whole county! Our power grids are antiquated and we are not cutting back enough on our energy usage. But *IF* more Americans would convert to induction, it would HELP (not completely solve) the energy shortage simply because a specific amount of electrical power will run more induction cook tops than it will radiant cook tops.

Do you get it yet? So let's stop with this silly talk about induction not being green because it uses the same dirty electricity that radiant cooktops use. It uses LESS than radiant cooktops do, and that makes it VERY green! ANYTHING that helps ANYBODY use less electricity is a GREEN product!!!! Okay? '-)

[Chemicalkinetics]

<By cooking on induction exclusively when it comes to anything stove top (except for the tagine I did on my gas hotplate) I have cut my electric bill by $30.00 a month for at least six months now. >

I believe you said that you were using electric resistive stove before this, right? So of course, your electric bill will be cheaper because induction stove is more efficient than resistive electric stove. I have never denied this point. I agree that induction cooking is more efficient than resistive heating by other electric methods. However, I do not agree that induction cooking is noticeably more efficient than gas cooking. I was talking about gas, which is a different thing.

<The Chinese government is heavily pushing induction for not just cooking, but on-demand induction water heaters too>

That is more environmental, but for a different reason than stove. This is because the traditional water heaters are on 24/7. On demand induction is only on when needed. So that is not really because the physic of induction, more about turning something on when you need it, and turning something off when you don't. This is different from stoves.

<Do you get it yet?>

Everything is relative, and I believe I have been very consistent all along that I was talking about gas cooking vs induction cooking. I don't think anyone here would mistake my statements were about resistive heating vs induction heating. On Feb 20, I wrote "The energy efficiency argument is very subjective for the induction cooking. It isn't necessary more efficient than gas -- if you account from beginning to end."

< It uses LESS than radiant cooktops do, and that makes it VERY green! >

Look, by that argument, you will also have to say that gas cooking is very green, because the more people use gas cooking, the less they use resistive heat cooking.

<ANYTHING that helps ANYBODY use less electricity is a GREEN product!!!!>

Yes, but nothing makes people use less electricity than gas cooking. ;)

[Caroline1]

Oh yeah, petroleum products are going to save the world... NOT! Electricity is NOT the problem! I can cook with induction using electricity that is wind generated as well as I can cook with induction using petroleum or hydroelectric power generation. PLEASE tell me when and how you can cook with gas without using petroleum products????????? Come on, tell me! Please! Please! Please!

[PepinRocks]

>> CAROLINE: PLEASE tell me when and how you can cook with gas without using petroleum products????????? Come on, tell me! Please! Please! Please!

N-A-T--U-R-A-L ... G-A-S.

[Caroline1]

Oh, please. Check this out:
http://www.dep.state.fl.us/waste/quic...

Please not that #2 on the list of petroleum by-products is natural gas. Thanks you!

[Chemicalkinetics]

<I can cook with induction using electricity that is wind generated as well as I can cook with induction using petroleum or hydroelectric power generation.>

As I have written before, you are using the "future and maybe argument". Is it possible that 30 years from now that induction cooking is environmentally cleaner than gas cooking if we have a major movement of switching power plants. Sure. Is it now for most consumers? No. The idea that if we are to just switch from gas cooking to induction cooking now will reduce greenhouse gas is untrue. Ask yourself this. Do you think it is better for our environment if all Americans now start to heat their houses using electricity instead of using natural gas? I say no. Why not? Because most power plants are run by coal and natural gas.

Just like what I mentioned about electric cars. If all of us go out to buy electric cars (not hybrid) right now, do you think it is better for the environment? No. It may even be worse.

There are special cases which induction cooking can be more efficient than gas cooking like hot summer cooking. However, in cold winter cooking, gas cooking is better for the environment because the heat not captured by the cookware is captured by the house and is warming the residence, whereas the heat generated from a power plant is truly lost -- ok... actually is worse than lost.... it is directly heating the Earth.

<how you can cook with gas without using petroleum products>

Of course as PepinRocks pointed out, natural gas is not petroleum, just like coal is not petroleum neither.

[Caroline1]

Well then a lot of things must have changed since my last geology classes in university. Please see the link I have posted for PepinRocks.

Sheesh...!

When it comes to energy production, electric power generating plants that produce electricity by burning FOSSIL FUELS -- and make no mistake, natural gas *IS* a fossil fuel! -- are a major source of environmental pollution. And for the record, natural gas is most commonly found in association with oil deep within the earth and is regularly classified as a petroleum product or petroleum byproduct. Oil and natural gas are formed from rotten animal or vegetable matter from millions of years ago. They do NOT burn clean.

And I'm bowing out of this discussion because it's too hard to discuss things with any sort or real world connection when arguments like this are presented.

[GH1618]

"natural gas is not petroleum"

Not strictly speaking, but the issue is fossil fuels, I think, not merely petroleum.

Much electricity comes from coal or gas, anyway. Consumers do not (except for a tiny few) choose a cooking appliance with this in mind. They choose what they prefer for its cooking characteristics and what fits their personal budget.

Environmental problems associated with the burning of fossil fuels can only be solved on an industrial scale, nationally and internationally, not in individual kitchens, in my opinion.

[Chemicalkinetics]

<Not strictly speaking, but the issue is fossil fuels>

I know it belongs to fossil fuels. I am just being very clean about what is fossil fuels and what is petrolem...etc.

<Environmental problems associated with the burning of fossil fuels can only be solved on an industrial scale, nationally and internationally, not in individual kitchens, in my opinion.>

I absolutely agree. This is why, if you read between my past replies, that I made it clean that having "a bunch of people going out and buying induction cooktops" is not going to do any good. It only makes sense if the power plants are changed. Otherwise, there is just all smoke and mirror about induction cooking reducing greenhouse gas compare to gas cooking. It does not.

[GH1618]

We agree on this.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Wow, I have a lot of typos. Thanks for being understanding.

[gnomatic]

Using China as an example is comparing apple to oranges, because lifestyle is different in Chinese homes.

Very few people use radiant electric cooking at all. Most use gas (propane). And "stove ranges" in homes is not common until recently. Most chinese kitchens don't have standalone stoves, but a cooking platform where a gas burner/hot plate is placed. Most of the "gas" burners use propane that is delivered in tanks, not by dedicated lines into their homes. You still see propane delivery man on bikes in many major cities.

The Chinese government encouragement of usage of electric induction could be view as being more convenient to the people (i.e. no need to wait for delivery if you run out, you already have electricity in your home to tap into) , but can also be view as eliminated the propane suppliers in favor of electricity suppliers (which the state still own a large percentage). Being "green" has very little do with it, especially given that much of the country's electricity is still provided by coal.

On-demand electric water heaters has always been common, because traditional water-heaters that americans use are very uncommon there. I grew up in Hong Kong in 1970's - 80's, we didn't have on demand hot water at all (this was a fairly modern for the time apartment building). It's easier and cheaper to provide hot water to existing older homes/apartments by installing on demand water heaters. On demand induction water heaters could be view as just the latest innovation in electric water heater technology in China...as in, if you need a new one that is what you would go with, but ripping out functioning electric water heaters in lieu of putting in a induction one because the new one is more efficient? That does not seem very green.

[kendunn]

Yeah, every time you turn on the news something is bad for us, and I am one of those that tries to avoid bad things! I am sure induction is every bit as dangerous as gas, and gas cooking has been around much longer.

[flourgirl]

Life is too short to worry about crap like this. I do my best to avoid the obvious hazards - but in my view, people who get bogged down with worrying about stuff like this are spending so much time fretting about ridiculous minutiae that they aren't spending enough time just enjoying life.

[The Chowhound Team]

Folks, just a friendly reminder to keep the focus of the discussion on cookware and cooking. General energy savings tips and health and safety issues are really off topic for Chowhound.

[SWISSAIRE]

I congratulate the many members that have contibuted comments here, as I find this to be one of the most informative posts on induction cooking.

I have alerted others here to read this. I have learned many facets of North American cooking, electrical power sources, and experiences that I was not aware of, despite having lived in California a number of years ago.

The only suggestion I can make to this excellent post, is to take the term "Euro" or "Euro-style" with some caution when considering a purchase of an appliance or cookware. Much of what I see and hear described in product advertising is not known to us here, and most likely only marketing. Certainly not a testimonial or review-quality term by itself.

[Diana1946]

I found a very well researched paper comparing Induction and Gas Stoves in detail. I couldn't get a website to copy, but you can goggle "An introduction into induction and natural gas stoves." Their recommendation, especially weighing environmental emissions, was to purchase an induction stove.

[tanuki soup]

Here's a link to a PDF file of the report:

http://www.sustain.ubc.ca/sites/susta...

[Veggo]

That is the question my BIL asks. He sprang for 150 large to remodel the kitchen to placate my difficult sister, about 3 years ago. She has induction and every other kitchen gadget known to man or woman. But it's still restaurants and fancy take-out every night, same as it ever was.

[Fowler]

And an induction stove is a fortune to repair. My friends are handy, but have never been able to repair their induction stoves and have suffered massive repair bills.

[Caroline1]

I can't imagine renters popping for a full stove, so induction hot plates are their friend. Home owners, however, should be able to get their induction cooking appliances repaired for about the price of a service call through their home owner's insurance policy. That means it would cost me sixty bucks for the repair, if I had a built-in induction cooktop. Nobody covers induction hot plates, so I'm on my own if Max Burton dies. BUT! You do have to be careful when shopping for home owners insurance because some companies have fine print that says they won't cover induction stoves or cooktops. Reason enough to look for a company that does! The two items it is challenging to find coverage for are induction anything and stand-alone freezers. However, a few companies in the U.S.A. do offer "rider policies" for stand-alone freezers for an additional fee. Not cheap, but if you've ever lost the entire contents of a freezer due to a long lasting power failure, you will at least be glad it's available, even if you don't buy.

[PepinRocks]

It is worth noting that when one files a homeowners claim, that can change the category that one is in, and result in increased yearly premiums. Those can readily add up to more than just biting the bullet and eating an appliance failure - if it's out of warranty. I have no idea how much extended warranties cost for induction cooktops but if the default warranty is short one might consider it for something that expensive.

There's also the deductible to be considered. And insurance might only cover replacing the appliance and probably not the contents. One needs to be really careful about whether it makes sense to submit those claims ... there are long-term costs that might be incurred vs. just eating it. Ah ... the fine print ... and ... what they DON'T write ...

[Diana1946]

Not sure website was listed in full on my post above.
http://www.environmentalhealth.ca/sum...

[Diana1946]

Sorry, not all of the website was printed in my recent comment. Here it is:
<http://www.environmentalhealth.ca/sum...>
There are many other sources you can find on this topic if you are interested.

[dtremit]

Another factor no one seems to have mentioned is the failed attempts at introducing induction to the US market in the past. Westinghouse marketed an induction cooktop in the '70s; Kenmore in the '80s. Neither saw much success.

European induction hobs are also significantly more affordable and available today than are the models available in the US. A quick look at a major UK housewares site shows 30+ induction cooktops available (versus ~25 non-induction electric) with prices starting at about £350 (or $550). The cheapest four-element all-induction cooktop I can find here is a Summit for about $900, versus about $500 for a name-brand smooth top electric.

I think when prices come down, the percentages will go up pretty quickly.

[knusprig]

Gas is always my preference. When there is no power I can still cook. In winter or when there's bad snow storm - and the hydro is interrupted - I can have my hot tea/soup, and hot water bottle to warm my bed.

[paulj]

Careful with that 'hydro'. Some of us dumb Americans (south of the border) might think you are talking about water. :)

Think about why gas is more reliable than electricity. Either you have a large propane tank out back (which can run out), or the gas lines are buried, and the power lines are still exposed to the elements. But power lines could be buried (more so in the city), and natural gas compressors could go down - though they do usually have backups. Or gas lines could rupture.

[knusprig]

PJ - You offered valid points on gas reliability and safety.
I'm in Canada - our gas lines are buried but not necessarily our power lines. We do need to call/consult the gas company before digging (our yard) deep for tree planting for example. Propane tanks are for our BBQ.

[flourgirl]

I live in NJ and have lived here for my whole life. In all of those 46 years, I have always lived in homes with both gas and electricity. We have lost electric power countless times - including two full weeks between last August and last October. We have never ONCE lost our gas. Never.

[deet13]

While my gas range isn't as sexy as an induction range, it's awful nice when we're sitting through a month long power outage due to a hurricane, or tropical storm...

[Caroline1]

I live in an all-electric home. When a power failure hits, I have gas hot plates I cook on. The butane canisters are fairly cheap at a restaurant supply (but certainly not cheap enough to cook on full time), and if a tornado takes my house, they will work in a tent too.

An induction cook top (there is no such thing as an induction wall oven yet, that I know of) is not just sexy, it is faster than gas, more energy efficient than either gas or electric, it will outlast MOST gas or electric cooktops, and cut your utility bills in the bargain. But you're right. If your house is torn down by a hurricane or you have a three day power failure, and induction is your only cooking source, just make sure you have a manual can opener and plenty of canned tuna on hand for sandwiches... '-)

[BKK Brendan]

I think induction cooktops can be quite useful. I think one of the issues is that many Americans don't even know they exist. I had no idea they existed until I moved overseas. When I do eventually move back, I will probably get another one. After extensive use of both, my main choice for cooking is still a gas range though.

[MikeB3542]

The way I see it, there are two huge issues against induction in the US. First is cost...a basic gas or electric range is way cheaper than any of the induction ranges available. I am talking basic white/bisque units here, the no-frills stoves most folks buy. You can get a basic gas or electric coil stove for under $400...induction will probably be at least double or triple that. That means A) a cash-strapped consumer that needs to replace a stove that has broken down is priced out and B) contractors building homes and landlords equipping apartments will never put in induction. Second issue is what I would call energy inertia...if you have a gas connection, you won't switch to electric without a damned good reason, because in addition to the cost of the range (which isn't cheap), there is the issue of running an electrical line to the kitchen (also not cheap). This is probably not even an option if you live in a condo or apartment.

[Caroline1]

I'm coming late to the conversation, and I'm greatly amused by all of the "cerebralization" of why more average Americans don't have induction. I don't think the average American home owner gives a thought to how their energy is produced when it comes to choices of traditional gas and electric stoves and cooktops versus induction.

I'm probably better informed than most home owners about options in kitchens, BUT... I think I fall within the American "norm" despite that. When I bought my house and redid the kitchen six years ago, I had to make my budget work. I knew I was going to go with black granite counter tops and island and I wanted a frameless black smooth ceramic cook top with no knobs ssticking up. My house is all electric. To install gas would have cost me an additional $70,000.00 to bring in a gas main, so that was off the option list. With an induction cooktop, even though I really wanted one and it would only have been about a thousand or so dollars more than the smooth ceramic cook top at that time, it was all of the added cost of replacing cookware that forced me to stay with radiant electric. My pots and pans at that time were all copper! In other words, the cost differences between cook top options was negligible compared to what the new cookware costs would run. We're talking major bucks here!

Now, here's a reverse twist on the OP's original question: It absolutely *IS* possible to build induction cook tops that will heat copper pans. Copper is THE high end cookware of choice throughout the world. High end customers are certainly the primary target of induction manufacturers. So how come they're dragging their feet, huh? Answer me that!

Oh, and just to clarify, I do have an induction hot plate.... and a long extension cord running from my island where the vent hood is located to the wall socket near the sink that is wired to handle the amperage of the induction hot plate. And it's been a while since my cook top has been turned on, but the vent is running a lot. And I'm slowly accruing induction friendly cookware. And maybe someday, if I ever get enough stuff to cook the way I have always cooked while using induction, I will spring for that actual damned built in cook top.

Money, baby. The induction manufacturers could make all of this moot! Twits.

[GH1618]

"It absolutely *IS* possible to build induction cook tops that will heat copper pans."

I believe you are mistaken about this as a practical matter. Induction causes heating in materials by two effects: induced electrical currents and magnetic hysteresis. Must of the heating in steel pans is caused by the magnetic effect, which is almost nonexistent for copper. Furthermore, the heating due to induced currents is lower in copper than in steel due to its greater electrical conductivity. There would be no point in producing an induction unit for copper pans if the performance were so far below that for steel that customers would not be satisfied with it.

[Caroline1]

Unfortunately, I can't tell you where to find all of the information I've read through the years that told me it is possible. Sorry 'bout that. But it *IS* possible. '-)

Point: Don't think about how high the fence is, think about what's on the other side and then get climbing!

[GH1618]

Yes, I've read that, too. But without an authoritative link, the statement is worthless,

[Caroline1]

Well, if you're read it too, then why are you challenging me? I didn't say it was easy. I said it is possible. If you know what I know, I don't know why you're questioning what I know!

[GH1618]

A person with no credential making a claim on an internet blog is not an authoritative source. You should not believe everything you read — there is someome promoting every kind of foolishness on the internet.

The heating from induction cookers comes mostly from magnetic hysteresis. This effect is at least 100 times greater in steel than in copper. It is not practical to make an induction cooker for copper for home use for this reason. The fact that induction furnaces have been made to melt copper for industrial purposes does not imply that induction heating of copper would work in the home, because residential electrical service has power limitations which industrial electrical service does not. Then there's the question of cost.

[BobB]

GH - read the link I posted just below - you may not have seen it as we posted nearly simultaneously. They DO exist, at least in Japan, and use higher frequencies to heat copper & aluminum than for ferrous metals. They're made by Panasonic. This info comes from a Chowhound who lives in Japan and spoke with Panasonic about them.

[GH1618]

If Matsushita (Panasonic) has all-metal IH cooktops available now, then there's nothing to complain about, I think.

http://www.appliancemagazine.com/edit...

So why not get one of these and report how they compare in cost and effectiveness compared to conventional units, and comparing copper, alumi um, and steel cookware?

This technology will come into general use when it is shown to be practical and economic, not before. The economics for the US market must take into account the fact that copper cookware is a tiny part of the market. Aluminum is what matters.

[BobB]

Interesting article - and one of the most interesting things about it is that it dates to 2005. I would assume that there have been improvements and refinements to the system since then.

They say it works on both copper and aluminum. I have to wonder though why they haven't tried to introduce them in the States yet. Could be that they see so little awareness of induction among the general population that they've decided to wait. Or the fact that Panasonic is not a player in the US cooktop market, they only sell their small appliances and microwaves here.

[paulj]

So has anyone found this for sale? I don't see anything like this on the Panasonic Hong Kong web site.

[Caroline1]

Last year I found it on the Panasonic Japan website and saved the URL. Then that computer's HD died last New Year's Eve. Tried to Google my way back there today, but apparently you can't get there in 2012. Could it have been washed away by the tsunami????

HOWEVER...! I was able to figure out that Panasonic doesn't simply use the term "induction" alone but uses "IH" (Induction Heated) for its induction portable and built-in "cookers." Long story shorter, look over this URL and read it carefully. Pay special attention to what it does not say!

http://www.galtak.com/kyh30ap.html

Of special note: This model has a special RADIANT burner/hob/element so that GLASS pans may be used, but there is NO MENTION of needing to use the radiant hob for copper, aluminum, or non-ferrous stainless steel. It certainly looks very close, if not identical, to the model I recall from the Panasonic Japan website that I saw last year. This is a Canadian website. I cannot find ANY Panasonic IH cooktops from a USA vendor.

I also found the following similar-but-not-like model at this Hong Kong website:

http://www.panasonic.hk/ha/english/fe...

This page says NOTHING about a radiant element or cooking with glass.

Dreaw your own conclusions.

[Dave5440]

A person with no credential making a claim on an internet blog is not an authoritative source. You should not believe everything you read — there is someome promoting every kind of foolishness on the internet.

The heating from induction cookers comes mostly from magnetic hysteresis. This effect is at least 100 times greater in steel than in copper. It is not practical to make an induction cooker for copper for home use for this reason. The fact that induction furnaces have been made to melt copper for industrial purposes does not imply that induction heating of copper would work in the home, because residential electrical service has power limitations which industrial electrical service does not. Then there's the question of cost.

Wow no metion you were wrong

[GH1618]

In thinking that these were not being manufactured, I was wrong. Panasonic and Hitachi have them. But although they have been developing the technology for a few years, they seem not to market them outside of the far east, and don't even promote the "all-metal" characteristic to any great extent.

The question I raised was whether this technology is practical for residential cooking. I still say the jury is out, for the time being. If it were clearly a better way to go, western manufacturers would have picked it up by now. Even commercial manufacturers like CookTek don't offer it, even though commercial kitchens are full of alumunum cookware, and they often don't have the power limitations of residences. The reason is probable just one of cost-effectiveness (practicality), not some sort of conspiracy to keep induction capability out of the hands of the copper crowd.

Even the Japanese are tentative. The Panasonic and Hitachi units have a 2-hob or 2+1 configuration, possibly a convention in their market. In some of the Panasonic units, only one of the two induction hobs is all-metal; the third hob is radiant. This is not a configuration that would sell in North America, I expect. Most of us would probably want four all-metal hobs. The question that bears on practicality is: how much power would that require? Panasonic and Hitachi do not have the data on their websires to answer that, but Hitachi mentions that heating of aluminum is less efficient than steel. They do not say anything about copper, which is probably even less efficient.

[paulj]

I've cooktops (or full stove) with 1 induction burner, and rest being conventional electric. These tend to be the least expensive induction stoves. I'd be tempted to go that direction.

As for that Japanese radiant burner, I can understand that. One source mentions using it for glass (or earthenware) herbal brew pots. Japan and other neighboring countries have a long tradition of using ceramics and earthenware pots.

[Dave5440]

The question I raised was whether this technology is practical for residential cooking. I still say the jury is out, for the time being. If it were clearly a better way to go, western manufacturers would have picked it up by now. Even commercial manufacturers like CookTek don't offer it,
I have to agree with you there, I'm not sure it's not practical or not nessesary, it always will be to somebody, but the majority will spend the money on something else

[paulj]

http://www.cooktek.com/induction-cooking
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ98as...

[BobB]

Dave was talking about induction for non-ferrous cookware, which is available in Japan but not in the US (yet). The CookTek examples you give show ferrous pots.

[paulj]

The Wiki article on Induction Cooking claims that hysteresis accounts only 10% of the heat generated. Most is due to 'surface resistance', which is a function of the material and the frequency. Thickness of the material also matters. Apparently aluminum foil will heat up, even melt on a conventional induction cook top. So would a very thin copper pan - but we want thick copper so it will conduct heat away from the heating zone.

The higher frequencies required to efficiently heat copper require more expensive semiconductors. The article doesn't mention this, but if the frequency is high enough to heat the copper pan, won't it also heat the copper coil under the lid? Cooling and reliability considerations could drive the high-frequency cooker costs even higher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductio...
has a photo of the interior of a portable unit. It looks similar to the Tautung one that I took a part.

[GH1618]

This is a typical example of how Wikipedia leads people astray. In industrial applications of induction heating which are designed to heat by eddy currents, the hysteresis effect may be small, but common "induction" cookers are designed to heat ferromagnetic materials by magnetic hysteresis.

http://www.abiscus.com/HV/InductionHe...

"Hysteresis is Important for induction cooking as it is the dominant source of heating."

[paulj]

How do I know that the 'abiscus' source is more reliable?

Another source
http://theinductionsite.com/how-induction-works.shtml
"(Note: the process described at #2 above is called an "eddy current"; heat is also generated by another process called "hysteresis", which is the resistance of the ferrous material to rapid changes in magnetization. The relative contributions of the two effects is highly technical, with some sources emphasizing one and some the other--but the general idea is unaffected: the heat is generated in the cookware.)"

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-9012.pdf
is one of the sources for claiming that hysteresis accounts for only 10%. (page 4).

The talk page for the Wiki article has a section on Eddy current vs Magnetic Hysteresis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ind...

But why should we care? Even if hysteresis is important with current cookers, eddy currents might be more important at higher frequencies in aluminum pans. Still I'm beginning to suspect that reports of this HF Panasonic unit may have been premature.

[GH1618]

"How do I know that the 'abiscus' source is more reliable?"

You don't, of course. Studying at "Google University" is fraught with risks. Suffice it to say there are differences of opinion on this point. That's why I found this piece from Popular Mechanics amusing:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/...

[paulj]

I found a FAQ from a Japan Panasonic web site. This is a Google translation of one question
"In particular, becomes hot, such as when using a copper and aluminum in the IH cooking pot all-metal support. This is not due to a malfunction in the mechanism of all-metal heating method.
When heated, such as pots and pans made ​​of copper and aluminum, in order to supply a lot of flux at higher frequencies, you must supply a large current to the heating coil. Amount of heat generated in a heating coil becomes higher and this, in some cases is because it may be hotter than a pot on the top plate. (When the kettle: about 300 degrees) "

http://panasonic.jp/support_n/ih/ih_h...

Apparently the 'all-metal' burner uses a different power circuit when heating aluminum and copper pans - one with both a higher frequency and higher current. And as I suspected, heating of the driver coil is an issue. I also get the impression that aluminum pans require a substantial preheat time.

If I read another FAQ correctly an aluminum pan has to less than 2mm thick. But a pan that is too light will levitate.

[BobB]

Caroline, I think you read about it right here on Chowhound:

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/739539

[Caroline1]

Nope. It was some science journal or techie website or something like that. More than one, actually. I used to keep reference files of stuff like that and where I read it, but after a MAJOR computer crash last New Years Eve, and an ongoing compatibiliy problem between Win7 64 bit and ANY software/firmware I own, I've pretty much drifted back into the dark ages of relying on my human memory. And boy! Am I human!

Buuuuut... That thread was the first time I read anything about anyone DOING anything about it! Tanuki Soup, if you read this, do you know if the prices have gone down?

But thanks, BobB! GH1618, you've just got your documentation. And honey, I got credentials! I'm just old and forgot where I put them! '-)

[tanuki soup]

Hi Caroline:

Just checked -- It seems that Rakuten is selling a Panasonic unit with twin 3-kW All Metal "burners" and a third small halogen/radiant burner for 112,500 yen (about $1400 at today's exchange rate). So prices are definitely coming down.

[GH1618]

Here's a link to a Panasonic document describing one of their induction cooktops. What I find interesting is that they do not even mention compatibility with non-ferromagnetic materials. This suggests to me that either it doesn't work very well in that mode, or that not many people care.

[Chemicalkinetics]

GH,

Since that old thread has been mentioned, I might as well jump in:

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/7395...

You can magnetically induce many non-ferromagnetic metals. The problem is that the energy transfer is low, much lower. As such, the argument for "energy efficient" and "reduce heating up the kitchen"...etc are less valid.

[kaleokahu]

Hi, Car:

It's probably more brain stem than cerebellum.

And you're right. There will be "all metal" induction eventually in the consumer market, even here in the backwater that is USA. At some point it will be considered the latest and greatest. But will it be a huge step beyond what we've had for >100 years in any way that matters? Probably not. But it probably ^will^ be very expensive. Think of all those vintage zoneless "old" induction tops we'll be trashing and the masses will be "stuck" with.

Aloha,
Kaleo

[John E.]

I thought the induction cooktop makers were also producing 'adapters' ie, disks of ferrous material which were placed on top of the induction stovetop and then onto which copper, aluminum, or other non-ferrous cooking vessels could be placed?

[Caroline1]

They do, but they aren't as satisfactory as actual induction friendly cookware. The problems range from size of pan versus size of adapter plate to what the heck do you do with the hot adapter plate when you're finished usin it and want it out of your way? And they can slow down the cooking too. My adapter plate is not as efficient at utilizing the magnetic waves of the element as my cast iron pans are. I could probably get more responsive results by setting one of my copper saucepans in a cast iron frying pan on the induction element than I get with the adapter!

Ah, well... It's better than the wood stove we had in our mountain cabin when I was a little kid!

[Fowler]

>>>I thought the induction cooktop makers were also producing 'adapters' ie, disks of ferrous material which were placed on top of the induction stovetop and then onto which copper, aluminum, or other non-ferrous cooking vessels could be placed?<<<

Would that not somewhat defeat the purpose of using induction in the first place? I do not really know much about it but that just came to mind.

[BobB]

Correct - you don't get the near-instantaneous heat change that induction provides, and you also have the inconvenience of that HOT iron disc to deal with. But it does allow people to continue to use specialty pots or pans that they just don't want to give up.

For me it holds no attraction, and I actually appreciated the opportunity to go out and get some really nice new cookware.

[Rella]

I think the discs costs more than I care to spend, at least the ones I looked at some time ago.

[jkling17]

>> Now, here's a reverse twist on the OP's original question: It absolutely *IS* possible to build induction cook tops that will heat copper pans. Copper is THE high end cookware of choice throughout the world. High end customers are certainly the primary target of induction manufacturers. So how come they're dragging their feet, huh? Answer me that!

1. Who cares? The real functional point of copper cookware is that copper provides a very fast and efficient transfer of heat from the bottom up through the core to the top (cooking surface). This isn't necessary with induction, which heats the pan itself ...
2. So ... the ONLY point of combining copper with induction is ascetics and/or vanity.
3. They already have ...

https://www.google.com/search?q=coppe...

$350-500 for a single piece of cookware? LOL! Be my guest :-)

[tanuki soup]

I beg to disagree. I've been using an induction cooktop for 6+ years, and recently picked up an 11" De Buyer Prima Matera frying pan, which is an induction-compatible copper pan.

IME, the main advantage of using copper cookware on induction is the fast and even heating out to the edges of the pan. In other words, it's not the heat transfer from the bottom to the top that's the issue, but from the center to the edges.

The heating elements used in induction cooktops are rather small, and there are no hot gases flowing up the sides of the pan, so good lateral heat transfer is an important benefit.

[Caroline1]

EGGGGzackly! And can you imagine what the responsiveness of a sterling silver pan would be?

A related digreression: If the makers of Swiss Diamond cookware really do use diamonds in their non-stick compound, how come they never talk about the heat conducting efficiency of diamonds? It puts silver, copper and aluminum to shame!

No, I don't doubt that they do use industrial diamonds in their compound. Yes, I do own a Swiss Diamond omelette pan. No, I'm not overly impressed with its performance. Just for the record.

[kaleokahu]

Hi, jkling17:

OK, I care.

1. The pan is heated in all cases, and the food doesn't care whether the heat *originated* in the pan or came from underneath. But copper- and aluminum-friendly induction would up the responsiveness of already fast materials, and would better put 3-dimensional hob cooking within reach of those now using "old" induction. It would eliminate or greatly reduce the "coil translation"/hotspotting effect, even-ing the heat. It would also eliminate the need to trade down in cookware to accommodate the stove's limitations, which I've always considered bass-ackward. And it would end the gyrations that makers like De Buyer go though to make pans that work.

2. So no, there are several other points. And I think you meant 'aesthetics'; an ascetic would probably eschew this entire discussion.

3. I think Caroline was directing her foot-dragging question to the *appliance* manufacturers, not the pan makers. It remains a legitimate question why stove manufacturers don't simply leapfrog over "old" induction and offer these high-frequency models that are apparently already available in Japan.

Your rhetorical question about the price of the pan reflects your values, that's all. Many would disagree. Personally, I think that price range would be reasonable for certain things, but I devote time to find them for a fraction of the retail asking price.

Aloha,
Kaleo

[jkling17]

POSSIBLE? Well in the most abstract interpretation, we may supposed that it is "POSSIBLE". But ... remotely practical? It doesn't seem to be so. The only copper cookware that can be used with induction are NEW pieces of it that were DESIGNED to be used with induction. And yes they are quite expensive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_cooking. A particularly relevant quote ...

"Even a thin layer of copper on the bottom of a steel cooking vessel will shield the steel from the magnetic field and make it unusable for an induction top"

Here's another really good link with technical info on the subject: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeab...

Bottom line is that the TRADITIONAL existing copper cookware can NOT be made to work with induction in any truly practical way. Even with the "new high frequency techniques" - The ENERGY loss required to do is prohibitive. It's just that simple. And that is counter to the one of the key points to using induction ... efficiency.

BUT ... for a princely sum, usually $300-500 - PER POT / PAN - one may buy special "copper" pieces that are induction capable, with normal induction cooktops/ranges.

BUT ... then the entire POINT of copper - highly efficient heat transfer through the metal ... is rendered irrelevant. Induction is already highly efficient with all standard induction ready pots/pans. Copper is just a "look" with induction heating, and no longer a material that carries with it any additional advantages. It is what it is.

[GH1618]

I'm afraid this is yet another case of Wikipedia confusing the issue rather than clarifying it, by being quoted out of context. My interpretation is this:

A thin copper layer on the bottom of a ferromagnetic pot will interfere with conventional induction heating, which is designed for an uncoated ferromagnetic pan. The interference is caused by induced currents in the copper layer which do not generate much heat. The efficiency is lowered by this effect. (I don't know if this is true or significant, but it is what is meant in the quoted statement.

This does not mean that copper cannot be heated by induction. It can, but an induction heater designed for the purpose is required. These operate at a higher frequency, and must be capable of inducing high currents in the copper (due to its low resistivity and lack of magnetic hysteresis) without overheating. Apparently Matsushita and Hitachi have been able to lower the cost and power requirements sufficiently so that the method is practical for home use, at least for 2-hob systems. "Practical" is not a well-defined term. It depends on what these units cost, how well they perform, and whether enough people think they are worth it.

[paulj]

Is generating as much heat in the induction coil as in the pan itself practical?
http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/8347...

[GH1618]

"Practical" is a matter of judgment, but generally one wants high efficiency, which in this context means a high fraction of total power delivered to the pan. Conventional units are about 90% efficient, which I think most would agree is practical. My opinion is that 50% efficiency is not good enough, but then a conventional electric range is not very efficient, either. A conventional electric burner is inexpensive to replace when it fails, however. If heat dissipated in an induction unit eventually causes it to fail, repair will be more expensive.

[jkling17]

My understanding is that the induction coil doesn't get hot, that it merely generates a field that causes the pan to get hot.

[paulj]

For a conventional induction burner that is true, but apparently this high frequency all-metal version is different.

[jkling17]

I tell you what - when my electric hot water heater gives out ... I bet there will be a really good advantage to some kind of on-demand induction hot water heater! Clearly that is where induction REALLY shines!

[Caroline1]

The're available and on the market right now. All you have to do is move to China. Or get an import license and fight twenty tons of red tape. Minimum order: 293 units.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/381...

[jkling17]

Thanks but I already figured out that it's mostly pointless. Induction water heating is really only interesting when one must have an unlimited supply and gas isn't available. Heat pump technology is the way to go, for most people (super cold climates not so much).

For most of us, it is vastly more efficient to leverage heat pump technology. I already own Fujitsu dual heat pumps to provide heat and ac for the entire rear section of our home. They are incredible. This year we have saved $1000-1200 in heating oil vs last year (including extra electric usage).

And now I've figured out that they make special add-on heat pumps that are installed right on top of existing water heaters for a mere $500-600. That's incredible. We're talking about a full ROI in 12-18 months, and then yearly savings of $500-750, until it dies (compressors don't last forever but most will make it to 7-10 years).

But if I ever want to superheat metal and make it literally glow or melt ... induction has it's place in industrial applications!

[GH1618]

No, it depends on what you mean by "hot." An induction unit which delivered 100% of the input energy to the pot would not heat up, but 100% efficiency is not possible. Conventional induction units are about 90% efficient, meaning that 10% of the energy input is dissipated in the unit, not in the pot. The question is, what is the power transfer efficiency for aluminum and copper for these all-metal induction units? The figures are not touted on the manufacturers websites, as they typically are for conventional ferromagnetic heaters, although Hitachi at least admits that it is lower for aluminum.

[Caroline1]

GH1618, is this one of the Hitachi papers you're referring to?

http://www.hitachi.com/rev/archive/20...

If it is, and *if* I'm reading it right, the new function "optical and four sensors feature" they describe makes it sound like their induction "hobs" may maintain a temperature level that is extremely accurate. Now, if it can do that at the lower end of the heat range as well as at higher levels, that COULD mean that commercial quality "stove top sous vide" is a thing of the (hopefully) not too distant future! WOW! Think of all of the Sous Vide Supremes that will be heading for Goodwill...! Bestill my heart. '-)

[GH1618]

That's not the one I read, but it's a good summary. Except that it says nothing about the power transfer efficiency in the various modes, which is what I am interested in.

The lower range of temperature control in consumer devices is a matter of policy rather than technology, because of the dangers of food poisoning.

[paulj]

The technical writeups seem to focus on the power circuit. This is the part with high power transistors (or rectifiers) that generates the high frequency current that is sent to the induction coil. One abstract implied that the low frequency current (24Khz) was generated at a fundamental frequency for the circuit, and the higher frequency signal was produced at one its harmonics. This would allow them to produce 2 different signals with a single circuit.

But this hitachi blurb makes it clear that efficiency is a problem at the higher frequency. They talk about improving efficiency at that frequency, and also improving the cooling (48db even for aluminum and copper cookware). I suspect that the 'aluminum' efficiency is on the order of 50% (as much heat is generated in power circuit and coil as in the pan).

Notice the box with the coil on top that the engineer on the right is holding. While the coil is the same size as used in portable burners, the box it is mounted on is considerably larger, 6-8" deep.

[Caroline1]

Paul, I haven't seen anything I would call "technical" write ups. Only thing like annual corporate reports or Japanese websites presenting their products to the Japanese economy. In the last URL I submitted Hitachi is being very guarded in describing their technology, and so is everything I've read from Panasonic. If you have the URLs for some technical papers from either company could you share them? Thanks!

[Caroline1]

GH, your remark about lower temperatures being a matter of policy in consumer devices rather than technology just makes absolutely no sense, and this is why you and I have such problems. Think about it. I just checked, and the lowest temperature I appear to be able to set my Sous Vide Supreme for is 86F. The lowest tempertures I can set my cooktop or gas hotplate or induction hot plate for are determined by how well they can reduce their energy output before hitting "OFF." It has NOTHING to do with policies regarding any danger of food poisoning. If "policies" were set by the government or any other agency with an eye to preventing food poisoning, most of the restaurants in the U.S. would be shut down and we'd all be banned from cooking at home!

[jkling17]

Hi GH,

Yes and I agree. In the most broad sense, copper "can" be used with induction. But it's clear that the "can" is strictly a technical distinction and that copper is entirely ill-suited to that purpose. To utilize copper in this way requires an entirely new technical approach, with high frequency waves, etc, etc. Anyway, it's all academic. The real benefits of copper are to match it up with conventional gas or electric, where it's highly conductive properties are truly useful and highlighted.

I have no issues with copper cookware but I just don't see the point in trying to pair it up with a cooking technology that is truly designed for other materials. I'd even be happy to buy a piece or two of copper cookware - at a yard sale. I could always use one more crepe pan or skillet :-)

Anyway, I think there are very few occasions where cookware needs to be able to rapidly adjust to a new temperature. Boiling water? Certainly not. Making a pan sauce? Perhaps ... it depends.

But I have made many a delicious pan sauce in my 10" cast iron skillet. And my "cooktop" at the moment is still just a few portable butane burners. I think that being forced to use these for the last few years has seriously enhanced my skill level and placed an emphasis on technique and creativity, rather than the gear.

[Candy]

I don't have it because when we did over this kitchen it was not available. I am buying a single burner soon. My next kitchen will have induction and I keep buying Chantal Copper Fusion cookware so I will be all set.

[SWISSAIRE]

Allow a European perspective, if I may.

Most homes and apartments here find it less expensive to use gas than electricity, a good point made previously in one of the replies. Kitchens here also tend to be less large than those seen in North America. The term "American-style " kitchen invokes a large, appliance-loaded affair, with endless Granite countertops, continuing into the next room, outside, and ibeyond nto the next Canton, or State.

The advent of Induction cooking is also new to many of us. I know personally of 5 households that enjoy the new experience of Induction cooking very much, and have sold off the old cookware for new Induction cookware. The average cost of a new set of cookware containing magnets is 2,000 - 2,600 Euros / CHF, which is a considerable expense.

I tend to favour Rösle from Germany, and the majority of the cookware I have fortunately includes the Induction stamp on the bottom of the pan, brater (roaster), or pot. But I do not cook using Induction only, as I can utilize the cookware or a gaz or electric range, ceramic, in the oven, or (indirectly) on the grill. But it is very, very quick when one uses Induction.

But the growing trend to Induction here is underway. One can see this weekly by reading the EBAY Germany and Suisse sites, where the seller will state that she or he has converted to Induction. Everything is sold off as a collection, or piece by piece, and even sometimes including a pot or pan that is (by the photographs) Induction-stamped.

At that point I think the seller of the older cookware would actually like to have a new set of pots and pans, the Induction cooktop is merely the justification. But then we all like something new and exciting in the kitchen now and then, don't we ?

[rosetown]

Good to hear the European experience - contrary to some of the posts here, I've only seen gas, never induction, in European kitchens, with one exception, near Mont Blanc, which was electric.

By cookware replacement including magnets, I assume you mean cooktop (hob)

Edit: at 2000 to 2600 Euros, I also assume it includes the cost of upgrading the electrical??

[Rella]

Re Rosle in Germany. Just a few minutes ago I ordered a Rosle Vegetable spoon on Amazon; the same I had ordered previously. I'm wondered how many Rosle products are now made in Germany, not another country. Just wondering because I bought an Rosle apple corer which bent unuseably on the first apple! I can't remember the circumstance, but it was a product that I was NOT able to return - darn!

[mikie]

You have to check carefully, but my understanding is that for the most part the Rösle products with the flat handles are still made in Germany, the ones with the round handles are now made in China. There are exceptions, but that's what I've been told as a general rule. I recently bought a slicer at WS that was Rösle and it was marked Germany on the cardboard cover. I also bought an older stock garlic press that's fantastic and the tag said Germany on it as well. But most of the new items are sadly, no longer made in Germany.

[SWISSAIRE]

To reply to mikie and Rella, you are both correct.

Rösle, like Bang & Olufsen, Porsche, and other products I use, does in fact manufacture in other countries. Some of our friends in the B&O circle really object to the fact that B&O is no longer 100% Made-In-Denmark. I don't share that opinion. Like the Apple IPAD, I do not believe that in itself creates quality issues.

Rella, I share your experience with the Rösle Apple coring tool and some of the other pieces. Occasionally, it is more of a design flaw than the manufacturing process.

If I may suggest an item to be helpful, you might try the KUHN RIKON coring and knife tool: It is a well-made product, and works very well for us.

[Rella]

Yes, it could be a design flaw, but whether-or-not, it sure bent fast and easily, and I'm a wimpy armed person, usually have DH do most things of that nature. http://www.amazon.com/Rosle-Fruit-Corer/dp/B005ESBVW4/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_2?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1329944992&sr=1-2-fkmr2 As you can tell, I was really flabbergasted.

Thanks - would this be the Kuhn you are speaking of?http://www.amazon.com/Kuhn-Rikon-Appl... So silly looking - :-)) Sure worth a try for me.

[SWISSAIRE]

Yes, it is cute, but it works well.

Kind of a nice colour change from all the Rösle stainless, too.

[kaleokahu]

Wie Gehts, Swissaire:

Bitte, point me to the outmoded thick copper pans your countrymen and neighbors are casting aside? I would be especially interested in pans by Suisse Leon Jaeggi before he moved to London after the Great War.

Danke Vielmal im Voraus,

Kaleo

[SWISSAIRE]

Vielen Dank / Merci, Kaleokaku.

It is obvious you have impeccable taste in copperware.

Yes, there are many antique and collector copper cooking pans and pots around. We have a local website called RICARDO which many utilise in this country. Copper cooking products are still manufactured and used currently here, especially in artisan and Alpen cheesemaking.

To broaden your possibilities, EBAY.CH, EBAY.FR, and EBAY.IT, is where I would start your search. You may perhaps be doing this.

EBAY.DE is also a good source, but sometimes difficult, as sellers frequently do not want to ship outside of Germany. This is true even for new products. ( I have solution for that if an EBAY seller in Germany has something you wish, and only ships local ).

But short of a Nespresso at this early morning hour, this is what comes to mind to suggest to you.

[kaleokahu]

Vielen Danke Außerdem, Swissaire:

I will check those EU sites out. I seem to have been limited to eBay.us and eBay.uk Is there also one for Belgium?

And I may take you up on your kind offer for a shipping solution. I have given up previously when English sellers have refused to ship outside UK or EU. The French resellers charge outrageously for shipping.

Whatever other suggestions you may have when fully caffeinated I would much appreciate. To avoid taking this off-topic, please feel free to e-mail me at [e-mail]. If I do not answer right away, I may be off skiing (on my Streules).

Guten Morgen,
Kaleo

[ratgirlagogo]

Aside from anything else, my landlady isn't going to spring for it. Am I really the only renter posting here?

[jkling17]

LOL. I happen to be a landlord. When I need to replace things, I tend to buy something nice, and not just entry level. I want the place to have a certain look and attract and keep a certain tenant. As a result I have been able to charge a premium and have great tenants.

IF the electric stoves (old coil types) were to blow out in one of my APTs, I would simply get a NICE range (not coil crappy thing). But not induction. It's just too much more money with no ROI.

[jzerocsk]

I'm just not in the market for a stove, but next time I am induction is at the top of the list.

[dcrb]

I believe it is going to take the electric companies to spread the word. They did so with the all electric homes - water heater, heat, cooking, laundry. Gas companies both natural and propane do the same as well. People will adopt what they feel is best for them whether it is superior to an alternative or not. We have a Magnaflux induction cook plate (bought at Tuesday Morning about a year ago). It works, Kind of fussy with the settings but you get used to it. And we don't use it much. But it is quick and handy. Can cook right at the table, unless there is a power outage. Strike a match and head for the range. MY/our experience is NO to a full blown induction cook top or range. This one cook plate is all we will need.

[flourgirl]

I just don't want it. I love cooking on gas. I like cooking over live flames (I'm also a big fan of smokers and charcoal grills) and see induction cooking as being somewhat soulless. (Although I am open to buying an induction burner one of these days. I could use one more burner and going that way makes sense for me.)

[wyogal]

Because it's not what Mom (or Dad) cooked on....

[flourgirl]

Actually, my mom and dad cooked on electric and I ALWAYS hated it. Got a gas range as soon as I could.

[wyogal]

How many of your neighbors used induction?
My point was that it wasn't really around when I was growing up (and as 'm sure, many other Americans) We had electric, I knew people that had gas.
As referenced upthread, the induction industry hasn't really done much PR, until very recently, to inform the public as to what it is. People tend to go with what they know. That's all. It wasn't all that literal.

[flourgirl]

I got it - my point was that I'm not using induction because I'm not aware of it - I'm not using induction because I don't choose to.

[wyogal]

That was my point. It's not something we are familiar with.

[flourgirl]

No, I apparently left a word out of my comment. MY point is that the reason I'm not using induction ISN'T because I'm not aware of it's existence etc., I don't use it because I don't want to. I like cooking over flames.Always have, always will. Induction's just not for me.

[wyogal]

and I was referring to most Americans.... I don't think they know anything about it. That's all. It's not familiar.
If you choose not to for specific reasons, then great.

[mikie]

I really think there are significant enough infrastructure differences between the US and Europe that dictate what type of appliances are used. I think it has very little to do with cost, or standard of living, but what's necessary to be effective. In most of Europe they don't have access to low cost natural gas, propane is expensive and they don't have the big storage tanks we have here for propane (my grandfather had one, they filled it once a year, if that often and it also supplied the heat for the house), they don't have the same level of electric service coming to their homes that we have (most newer US homes have 200 amp service or more). As a result of these infrastructure constraints in Europe, it's no wonder they would be more receptive to induction cooktops where what little electricity they have coming into their homes is used most efficiently. In the US, we have a natural gas grid that is available to most urban areas, we have almost unlimited electric power, if you have nither of these you are likely in a non-urban area and have a huge propane tank. You can also look at the economics of cooking, electricity in Europe is more readily available and compared to the US it's relationship to gas is quite favorable.

Couple this with the availability and marketing of induction ranges in the US, practically non existant. I'm not even sure the salesman where we bought our applainces mentioned induction, but we may have preempted that with a request for gas.

[BobB]

True about salesmen not mentioning it. The first place I visited to see one, when I asked about induction the salesman's first question was. "why would you want that?" And he then proceeded to tell me that induction heats the food, not the pan! If the guys selling these things don't know what they are or what they can do it's a sad situation (and probably goes some way to explaining why there are so few out there).

[Enigma3]

We had a 36" GE Monogram induction cooktop 20 years ago. Came from Japan. It eventually wore out (burners unavailable) and we replaced it with a 36 in electric smoothtop. We have a 2 burner gas Jenn Air next to the electric top.

Induction is faster and heats the glass less. The induction unit we had was touchpad with 10 power levels. I had no problem with finding an adequate level. If you have no gas and your electricity is high, induction becomes a viable choice. One of the nicest things it did was force us to buy all new magnetic cookware. We now have a nice collection of blue Chantal.

Gas is what it is. I much prefer natural to propane. Infinitely adjustable and you can get bigger burners than an induction will have. And the flame looks nice.

The electric smoothtop has 12 ranges. Plenty enough. Functional not flashy. And half the price of a new induction top.

Induction requires a fair amount of disposable income. To me it does not hold any advantage over gas. And it limits the cookware you can use.

[shiny]

I think most Americans have never heard of induction cooking. I hadn't until just a couple of months ago. I learned about it by accident when researching pressure cookers. "Induction-ready"... what's that?

So I read about it and it sounded like a way to make my kitchen cooler in the summer. I bought a portable cooktop on Craigslist to try it out... and loved it! Now I'm renovating my entire kitchen around it.

I've told a lot of friends that I'm switching to induction cooking, and only one of them knew what I was talking about. Even she had never seen one until she saw mine... and she's a gourmet cook!

[cutipie721]

Although I've heard of induction cooking since I was a kid, my experience with the technology was limited to hot plates. I only heard of induction being made into a major household appliance less than 10 years ago. Many people that I know of, like me, are aware of the hot plates, but are skeptical about using them to fix meals, or are not even aware of induction cooking appliances because it's not something that the keep up with, like the latest iPad.

There were multiple occasions where the guests would ask me why I chose electric vs gas. I told them it's induction and it's nothing like electric, but they gave me that "whatever" look. I wouldn't be surprised that many people out there assume it's just another radiant/ceramic crap look-alike.

Give it some time. If it's really awesome, people WILL pick up on it.

[GH1618]

There's no need to be defensive about electric. James Beard preferred electric.

[jkling17]

Yeah and he ended up dead! I'm not interested - thanks much, and will stick to gas!

[GH1618]

We all end up dead, or in the immortal words of William Munny: "We all have it comin', kid."

Beard died of a heart attack at the age of eighty-two. I don't know what cooking with electricity has to do with that.

[jkling17]

American's are often full of hot air or "gassy by nature". Technically, we are the "middle east of natural gas". And ... we LOVE wasting natural resources. Induction is entirely too efficient for our taste! Thank yew very much! We'll just keep doing things our way and the rest of the world better darn well start doing things our way!

Ok ... all the humor aside ... induction is considered pretty new over here. Why? My GUESS is that our manufacturers have only recently started making and marketing them to us.

Personally I love gas and will stick with it. Right now that means using 2 portable butane burners (my current electric stove sucks big time). These little burners work really well and we go through about $5-7 of gas a month like this. Lower cost isn't possible. When we redo our kitchen it'll mean propane (natural gas won't be available to us for a few years - don't ask). And then I'll finally install my awesome used Thermador 36" cooktop .... SWEET! I picked it up for a mere $250. There's no way that induction would have a reasonable ROI vs. going this way.

But ... have fun w/ your induction - I'm sure that it's cool!

[Chemicalkinetics]

"we LOVE wasting natural resources. Induction is entirely too efficient for our taste! "

There is a bit of that if you want to phrase it that way, but you can also see it as a competitive situation. For Europeans, gas a lot more expensive, so it makes sense to use a more energy efficient stove. For us, gas is cheap, so induction does not provide the same level of attractiveness.

[GH1618]

I'd say that was a tongue-in-cheek remark. Economics dominates, in my opinion. By that I mean the economics for the individual, including the cost of conversion, not merely the cost of operation.

[MandalayVA]

Since we moved into a condo that has only two burners on a gas stove (the other side is a grill) I've considered getting a portable induction burner to use since there are plugs on both sides of the island and I could put it on top of the grill side. I went for a long time cooking on electric stoves and it's just now, nine months later (insert joke here) that I'm finally comfortable again cooking with gas.

[Fowler]

Price of the initial unit

Cost to repair that initial unit

Many (not all) Americans do not use induction compatible pots and pans.

I love induction, BTW.

[mikie]

Having spent time at a friends home in Italy, I think it becomes quite clear why people in the EU are more induction friendly. For starters, they have a completely different paradime than Americans. In the EU, the homes are typically smaller, which means the kitchens are smaller, so they don't have the space for a 48" Wolf Range. Many of the homes are older, they don't have the same type of electrical service to their homes that we in the States have, so the use of electrical power is of critical concern to them. They typically don't have access to natural gas as we do in the States, so that's not even an option in most cases. In other words, the time and energy and space needed to boil a pot of water in Italy is much more precious than it is in the US, therefore they are much more likely to adopt a more expensive technology, sooner, as it better fits the lifestyle of their region.

Most of the automobiles in Europe are diesel, why haven't we adopted diesel, we have cheap gasoline. Why don't they have side by side Sub Zero refrigerator freezers, they don't have the space or electricty to power them. Why were the Europeans first with front load washing machines, they don't have the water accessability we have in most parts of the country. People buy what they buy for predominantly economic reasons and the US and Europe are not under the same economic pressures and constraints.

[kaleokahu]

Hi, mikie: "They typically don't have access to natural gas as we do in the States..."

Bingo.

Aloha,
Kaleo

[mikie]

Hi Kaleo,

That is a big factor! The house we stayed in in Italy had a propane stove, it was very small and the propane tank was only about the equivelent to two of the 20 pounders that we Americans use for our outdoor gas grills. The oven was electric, but just about all the electricty in the house had to be off to opperate it. Resources are just such a premium they can't cook the way we do in the States.

[kaleokahu]

Hi, mikie:

Yes, it is a big factor. The lack of a gas grid (and the product to put through it) is a giant deal. In many places in Europe (and the soon-to-be-former Europe, like Greece) there was a tradition of neighborhood and villiage communal ovens. What you couldn't cook yourself on a small hearth fire, you dropped off for the baker with instructions and a pickup time.

The last Italian house in which I stayed had both the tiny propane setup and a cooking hearth--as do still many osterias. I found it to be a very satisfying way to cook and eat.

Aloha,
Kaleo

[Rella]

'typically' here in Virginia: no natural gas in my vicinity where I have lived since 1993.

The previous home in WA state we ran it from the highway at our own expense.

The home previous to that in Hawaii - no natural gas.

I've oft wondered who does have natural gas - not us.
Of course, just one example out of a couple of hundred million. Just saying.

[BobB]

I think you're more likely to find gas available in cities and towns where there is higher population density. More customers makes it easier to justify the expense of laying pipes.

[ellabee]

Or, as is the case in our rural area, if you're on the way to a sizable industrial facility. Our house and that of several neighbors have had gas since the 1940s, when a big pipeline went through to serve factories in Lynchburg. About ten years ago, the smaller residential pipe finally reached our neighborhood, but still doesn't reach our house.

[paulj]

Gas is most attractive where there a substantial heat need. It's a lot easier and cleaner than coal or oil, and cheaper than electricity (in most places). Electric heating is still common in western Washington, where heat needs are relatively low, and electricity has historically been low cost.

I mostly use the induction burner because of its convenience. In warmer weather it is also nice because it heats up the small kitchen less than the electric stove. In a previous house in Chicago we did switch from an electric cooktop to a gas one, but that house already had a gas heater. We don't have a gas feed in this suburb north of Seattle, though the gas company is upgrading lines a few blocks away.

[sueatmo]

Nor us. There is gas in our metro area, but not in our immediate area. If natural gas wants to become a big factor in energy productin in the U.S., the companies need to run lines out farther than the city limits.

[Dave5440]

I guess up here we got the jump on gas 20 yrs ago when they started laying gas lines out in the country, It's available in all the rural areas around me and I'm in a smallish town(80K pop)

[Astur]

I would love induction but when i replaced my gas stove last we weren't going to do a kitchen remodel at that time and I therefore had to get another gas stove of which I was able to get a model that i am very pleased with. Of course after the stove was replaced my hubby finally agreed to do the kitchen, go figure!

Induction is very expensive but you often have to replace like with like because of the expanse outside of getting an actual appliance. Installing the right electrical means to change how you power your stove/cooktop is very difficult depending on your house setup and really not worth the expense, especially if you aren't doing a full kitchen redo.

Also, many people don't have a clue what induction really is. They just see the extra expensive stove and pass. As people come to realize that it isn't a passing fad then as more electric stoves at least are replaced there will be more induction stoves replacing them.

[BobB]

"Installing the right electrical means to change how you power your stove/cooktop is very difficult depending on your house setup"

Valid point. I was fortunate that the previous owners of our place did a kitchen renovation a few years before we bought it and put in a dedicated 50A, 220V line for their halogen range. That meant switching to induction was no more complex than slide the old range out, slide the new one in.

[Rella]

When we bought our slide-in range 5-6 years ago, we replaced it with a slide-in range, but that still created problems with our draft situtation because we had had the Jennair.

Unfortunately, induction 'ranges' were not in the 'review worthy' ranges available with their associated costs that we wanted to take a chance on at that time.

You are a lucky guy.

[unprofessional_chef]

.

[BobB]

I don't think the portables get as hot. The largest burner on my cooktop uses 3700 watts at its highest setting, which puts out heat equivalent to a gas burner running at about 26,000 BTU. I don't think the portable units go that high, if only because they're designed to run on 110VAC current, not 220.

[paulj]

1800w is the maximum that I've seen for 110v units. That's the max you are going to see for portable heaters and toaster ovens. However a home may have 220v circuits for the dryer, baseboard heaters, and the electric range.

With my induction hotplate I rarely use it above power level 5, 1200w. Only if I'm in a rush to boil water will I go higher.

[BobB]

Same here, I rarely go above 5 except to boil water.

[mikie]

So, if you rarely go above 5 except to boil water, then how many settings do you really have for control of the temperature, not the 19 you stated above because 14 of those are too hot. Not the 30 something of combinations because you can only use a certian size pot on a certian size hob. What it comes down to is you have 5 settings to play with and if one of them isn't just the right temperature you will likely have an issue when preparing something that is extremely temperature sensitive. Now maybe one of those settings is "just right" to quote Goldie Locks, but how do you know that in advance of purchasing a rather pricy stove top? I think in most cases you don't. So in our case, is it worth the gamble to drop $1500 or more on an induction top, that if you don't like, you will live with for years, since it's built into the granite counter and new cabinets, or do you go with something you know works for what you want to cook? As nifty as an induction top may be, for many it's still untested technology, that is, we haven't had the opportunity to try one out in a real world situation. And many of us have had poor experiences with the other type of glass top electric cooking, I know, they're not the same, but they look the same from 20 feet away and that's as close as my wife would get to one. There are so many different types of cooking and things to cook, one seems to need the maximum flexability.

I actually only know one person with an induction hob and it's a singe that's used to boil water, the remainder of their cooking is done on a gas stove top. And I can assure you they didn't choose gas over induction for economic reasons. The stove top was I'm certian less than 2% of the kitchen remodel.

[BobB]

To clarify, "rarely going above 5" means 10 levels, as mine is calibrated in half-step increments. And rarely doesn't mean never - for certain things like searing and quick browning I sometimes go higher. But even on my old halogen cooktop, I rarely needed to go much beyond halfway before things got too hot. That's normal - unless you're running a steakhouse, most cooking involves simmering, braising, stewing, sautéing, and other practices for which low to medium heat is more suitable. If I were into wok cooking I might use higher heat more often, but I'm not.

I agree that induction is simply unfamiliar to most people - I've had a great time explaining it to my friends, many of whom, even though they're avid cooks, had never even heard of it and thought I was talking about convection ovens. And yes, they do look just like flattop electric, but trust me, they are night and day when it comes to actually cooking. I lived with a halogen flattop for years and it drove me crazy, heating different types of pans at wildly different rates and taking forever to cool down.

As the OP here, I have to admit that the question I posed in the title was somewhat disingenuous - yes, of course I know that the main reason induction hasn't caught on here is that most people have no idea it even exists, let alone what it is. But I was hoping to draw out some interesting comments from the Chowhound crowd, and in that I have clearly succeeded.

[mikie]

"But I was hoping to draw out some interesting comments from the Chowhound crowd, and in that I have clearly succeeded."

Indeed you have! And I think there are many reasons they are not as popular here as in Europe.

It's funny, no one buys a car without a test drive, even a new one. But what do you expect to discover during a test drive that you couldn't surmize from the spec sheet. On the other hand, how many people ask to test drive applainces, where there is much more opportunity for surprises. My wife would have liked nothing better than a smoth top cooking surface that could just be wiped off, and preferably with no knobs to wipe around either, but her lack of knowledge of the induction cooktops and her poor experiences with smoth top electric was enough that induction wasn't even in the conversation. However if she could have test driven one and made something that was critical to her, then she would have jumped all over it. As it is, she is thrilled with the new gas range top, even though it is considerably more difficult to clean.

[Rella]

"yes, of course I know that the main reason induction hasn't caught on here is that most people have no idea it even exists, let alone what it is."

Whew! I was wondering...
I totally agree.

[jzerocsk]

Do induction dials have discrete settings and you can't select something in between?

For whatever it's worth, every time I have ever used an unfamiliar electric stove I had to use it a few times to learn what temp. settings to use and it usually somewhere between 4 - 6 is the sweet spot for most tasks. Anything above is pretty much "boiling things" territory.

[BobB]

Yes, they have discrete settings - in my case, 19 per burner, but given that there are several different sizes/strengths of burners, each of which has 19 levels from its individual lowest to highest setting, the overall range is enough to get you anything you'd need in a practical sense.

"every time I have ever used an unfamiliar electric stove I had to use it a few times to learn what temp. settings to use"

Exactly the same here. One difference is that on my old halogen cooktop, different types of pans would heat up at very different rates and to different degrees at the same heat setting, whereas on the induction, they seem to be much more consistent. Of course, that may at least in part be due to the fact that everything I use on induction is of necessity cast iron, stainless steel, or at least has a steel layer in it.

Most of my actual cooking is between levels 3 and 6, but I go below 3 for really low simmering and above 6 for boiling and quick searing.

[BobB]

To add an analogy to that: I've owned a 10-speed bike for many years, and most of the time I use only the middle three gears. But when I need those extra high and low gears, I'm REALLY glad I have them!

[danna]

BobB - I can ditto pretty much everything you said about your induction stove. I got mine about a month ago , and I'm in love. LOVE. Threw away the glass top electric....happy day!

Now that you have upgraded your stove though, you might need to find out how many speeds a modern bike has ;-)

[BobB]

I know about modern bikes - but mine is a '70s vintage Motobecane, a real collector's item. ;-)

[danna]

Sounds like a sweet ride! I got distracted posting, but I meant to continue by complimenting you on the analogy. Indeed, those very hi and very low options on the stovetop(and bike) are super-important when you need them. It was the TOTAL inability of my electric stove to simply keep warm or god-forbid simmer anything that drove me to distraction.

It's taking me a little time to figure out exactly which #'s on my stove correspond to which heat level. Like you, I find that I'm not using the 8 and 9 unless I'm trying to boil the crap out of something. It's very impressive when I am, of course, just have to remember to turn it down once it's rolling.

[sr44]

$$$$$$$ for the appliance

[Chemicalkinetics]

One problem with that argument is: Why then can Europeans and Australians afford the induction cooktop -- considering the fact that the an average Americans have a higher disposable income.

[escondido123]

Could it be that people outside the US buy two burner appliances and there is a large demand for those so therefore lower price? Just wondering.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Could be, but I also thinking about our energy sources. It is my understanding that Europeans have more nontraditional power plants like the nuclear plants, whereas we (Americans) have much more access to gas, coal and oil. It is all relative, I think. If our natural gas price jumps 3-fold tomorrow, then probably you will see more induction burners.

As for now, I am not really sure an induction cooktop will save you more money than a gas cooktop.

[Rella]

I wonder how many American people actually do make a choice to buy an induction burner/range based on world power plant costs.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Maybe not many, but more the reason why it is important to illustrate this fact, as the statement stands on its own merit. That is: induction cooking is not more energy-efficient than gas cooking.

An analogy. The planet Earth is spherical (round). It really does not matter if one people believe it or a million people believe it -- the Earth is still round.

[Rella]

Sorry, but I've already lost track of "the statement that stands on its own merit."

[Chemicalkinetics]

Just considered the fact that I was responding to sr44 and escondido123.

[cowboyardee]

Inequality-adjusted standard of living (or human development index, as it is now measured) might be a better indicator of what the bulk of a population can actually afford than 'disposable income.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_...

There, you'll find America falls below most of Western Europe, and well below Australia.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Inequality may be, but if we are talking about average household can afford it. For example, I know plenty of people who has no problem with buying iPhone, but has trouble buying induction cooktop, and I am sure you have sensed the same attitude here on CHOWHOUND. Many people here can afford a coolection of Le Cresuset cookware, and are not willing to pay for an induction cooktop.

I don't know many people say "I like to have induction cooktop, but I cannot afford it". Most go the other way: "I can pay for it, but I don't want it".

[mikie]

I think induction manufacturers haven't done a very good job in educating the American public on what can and can't be done on their cooktop. I'm sure I spent just as much on my 36" Electrolux Icon gas range top as a good induction top, so I could afford induction. BUT, my wife makes candy a few times a year and she didn't know if induction would work for her, so no induction. She knew that gas would work, so we bought a very nice gas range top instead. Our pots and pans for the most part are old, so that really wasn't a stumbeling block, they could and are being replaced little by little. But, not knowing how it would work with a particular cooking task was enough to rule it out. I should also add, we had an electric coil cooktop that was replaced, so we had electricity, but there was also a gas line there as well.

[GH1618]

Induction might well be better for candy-making, but in that case a portable induction unit would do. These are so inexpensive that one can have both gas and induction.

[mikie]

Well I know little more about the specifics of induction ranges beyond what I read here. I can tell you that making carmel from scratch takes very precise temperature management. I'm not sure just how precise you can control temperature when you only have 6 or 8 settings with an induction range. On the other hand gas is infinately adjustable.

[BobB]

My induction (GE, nothing fancy) has 19 levels - more, actually, when you consider that there are three different sizes/powers of burners and each one of them provides a different range of potential heat, so from lowest to highest that may be as many as 30 or more levels. It'll do caramel.

[Rella]

And yet, many are not interested.

[BobB]

For future reference, there is nothing that gas can do that induction can't with the exception of round-bottomed wok cooking and anything where you actually need an open flame, such as for charring peppers (I do that on my outdoor grill). In range of temperatures, stability of temperatures, and speed of changing temperatures, it equals or exceeds gas.

[GH1618]

There are induction units now designed specifically for round-bottomed woks, by the way.

[BobB]

Yeah, the technology is evolving. I was quite limited in my options as we needed a full range (cooktop plus oven), and while there are lots of induction cooktops out there, there are only a handful of ranges. It would have been nice to get one of those "zoneless" cooktops, where the entire surface is capable of heating a pan and it automatically senses the location, size and shape of any pan you put on it. But no range maker currently offers that. Sigh. Oh well, next house...

[kaleokahu]

Hi, Bob:

I understand the "zoneless" concept, but could you (or anyone) please explain what the coils in these things look like under the Ceran? Are they all the same size and shape, layed out in arrays that the sensors then configure and control? How many such coils are there, typically, 10? 50? 500? If you put something like a fish poacher on a "zoneless" 'top, are the only coils *completely* under the pan energized, or do coils protruding beyond the pan's edges also fire up? Could you, eg., put two such pans side-by-side or diagonal to each other and heat them differently?

Aloha,
Kaleo

[BobB]

I don't know the details of how zoneless works, but it wouldn't really matter (except in terms of marginal energy consumption) whether it only turns on the coils that are completely below a pan or those at the edges as well, since only the pan itself gets hot.

[kaleokahu]

Hi, Bob:

Well, there are safety concerns, detection concerns, evenness concerns, bleeding and overlap concerns, and complexity of repair/longevity concerns, but other than those, maybe it doesn't matter.

So much of this stuff requires a level of blind faith that what lies beneath the Ceran surface is (and works) as claimed. I mean, are we talking about concentric rings of coils, irregularly-shaped puzzle pieces, a mosaic of little postage-stamp areas, or a carpet of pixels? If I was goingto spend $$$ on one of these, I'd want to know how it works.

Aloha,
Kaleo

[BobB]

I think you're going a little over the top there, Kaleo. Safety concerns? How so? Only the pan gets hot. Repair/longevity maybe - I can see the potential for that, which is why I got a relatively inexpensive extended warranty on mine. I don't even know what you mean by bleeding and overlap - who cares if the magnets are turned on a bit beyond the edge of the pan (not that it necessarily does that, as I said I don't know exactly how they set up the zoneless system). Magnetic fields dissipate extremely rapidly with distance, unless you're planning to leave your credit cards lying on the cooktop I don't see the issue.

I do agree that before buying a zoneless cooktop I'd look more deeply into exactly how it works, but since that was not an option for me, I didn't bother. Hopefully someone who knows more about them will chime in.

[kaleokahu]

Hi, Bob:

Oh, I think if an active zone isn't completely covered by the pan, you can have other ferrous things (utensils, other pans, etc.) get heated unintentionally, causing burn hazards. Yes, the field falls off rapidly with distance, but in this situation believing that "Only the pan gets hot" might get you or a loved one branded.

By bleeding and overlap, I mean that two pans ostensibly on separate zones (and different settings) might be sharing--in whole or in part--the energy from one zone. Visualize your pasta pot placed next to your chocolate pan--how do you know the latter isn't going to get some of the (high) energy you order up for the former?

Maybe all the fingers and chocolate were burned in testing, and our Far-East engineering friends have this all figured out. But common sense tells me that the sensors, switching, processors and multiple coils that run these things are going to be orders of magnitude more complex than what's on current models (which themselves may not have been completely debugged).

Anyone who finds one, please post a review of the zoneless induction and how it works.

Aloha,
Kaleo

[BobB]

Some interesting info here on a recently-released zoneless: http://www.dedietrich.co.uk/piano/about

Looks like one of the safety features they've included is a "small object detector" so it won't heat up something like a stainless spoon you happen to have set down on the cooktop.

I do think you'd need to leave a few inches between pots for each to heat correctly, but since the entire surface is available for use that shouldn't be a problem.

[kaleokahu]

Hi, Bob:

Thanks, now we're getting somewhere! This is interesting, and at least De Deitrich shows us the coils...

It looks like there are twelve, nested triangular coils. These triangles each also have 3 little lobes within them, so it's not clear to me whether there are effectively 12 coils or 36. Whichever it is, if you superimpose the "triangle" photo onto the photos showing the pans on the hob, you should understand what I meant about bleeding and overlap.

For instance, consider the "Piano Mode" photo with its three pans. What happens if the center pan is shifted 3/4 inch off-center, and/or the flanking pans are bumped inward? And in the "Expert Mode", it looks like some of the triangles must be shared; are the shared areas disabled somehow? Does a triangle or lobe need to be entirely covered by a pan to get energized, or just the dots? I know you don't know the answers to these questions, I'm just wondering out loud. If this works the way it appears, it also has ramifications for cookware performance.

What comes through to me loud and clear here is the attempt to duplicate the effects of a solid-surface cooktop, albeit with more flexibility. Frankly, I'd be more impressed if this thing had few (or no) controls, and just continuously varied the heat output from one side to the other--e.g., put you pot on the extreme left, it's gonna boil; on the extreme right, it'll barely simmer; and infinite gradations in between. Something like..... the wood cookstoves that have been around since the 19th Century (At least my Monarch doesn't have a "small object detector")

Thanks again for posting that. Kinda looks like a copy machine, doesn't it?

Aloha,
Kaleo

[kaleokahu]

I encourage everyone to watch the videos of this Piano cooktop. Manipulating the controls looks anything but simple; I hope it comes with "flight simulator" software. And I hope that their detection circuitry is better than their spelling.

[Dave5440]

You forgot to mention how people seem to get freaked out by being around wifi, the new windmills, high tension hydro lines , yet spend hours a day on cell phones and now add induction coils to the mix

[GH1618]

That's a generalization that probably doesn't hold up. You seem to be assuming that all people who fear one sort of electrmagnetic radiation or another all fit under one umbrella, and exhibit commpn inconsistencies. If you are going to accuse someone of inconsistency or hypocrisy, it ought to be a particular person for a particular inconsistency.

[Dave5440]

I'm sure there's one person on here that fits the description, and my generalization comes from watching the news up here, where all the parents are up in arms because there's wifi in their kids high school, yet I'd bet 95% of the kids and parents are glued to a cell .
I also believe once induction does become more mainstream you'll see some clown on the news saying his/her stove is causing health issues

[wyogal]

wifi in the high school..... our students are given a $1,000 laptop when they enter 6th grade, checked out to them. They bring them to class and are expected to be able to use them. Teachers used to reprimand kids because they didn't bring a pen/pencil with them, and now I have found myself reprimanding kids for not having their laptops charged, or leaving the charger at home and they can't do the assignment at the end of the day because their laptop isn't charged.
The times, they are a changin', eh?
They'll either be claiming health issues (induction caused), harming them, or it will be the new cure for arthritis.

[Dave5440]

The times, they are a changin', eh?
It blows my mind when I think of how much has changed just in half of my life

[ellabee]

All the induction units I've read about, from the cheapest portable to the fanciest built-in, have some form of detection that prevents the magnets from going on if the object on the surface is not "pot-shaped", exactly in order to prevent a utensil or fork left on the surface from being heated up.

Gaggenau makes a zoneless cooktop, which has been sold in Europe for some years, and is introducing it to the U.S. this year. But discussion on some forum (probably Garden Web, though I don't remember if it was in Appliances or Kitchens) made me realize that there are two kinds of 'zoneless', and that the simpler-electronics-but-not-as-flexible is what will be on offer in the U.S. market.

But I'm really at a loss to understand why you seem to think the technology is at a primitive and unproven stage given the extent of induction use in Europe. Your questions are good ones, but it would pay you to get answers from the companies that have been manufacturing them for the last two decades.

[Rella]

Many times I put the fork tin upside down on the outside area from where the pot is cooking away, and resting the end of the fork on the counter. It has not heated the fork.

I mention this as yesterday I was cooking using all burners on the glass top, as well as two induction hobs, and layed down a large fork on top of the glass top as I often do. Since there was so much cooking going on, the fork got pushed into a turned-off burner area - yes, of course, I minor-ly burned my hand picking it up. This burn incident may have happened on an induction unit, but I don't believe the residual heat from the pan on an induction area would ever be as hot as a cooling-down burner on a glass-cooktop.

To finish up the story, stupid me, I started to pick up the flung-down fork from the floor. Synapses and neurons not working properly!!

[kaleokahu]

Hi, ellabee:

Having a safety sensor is basically the same question as what will fool the sensor. My understanding is that a small ferrous object (and some nonferrous ones, like aluminum foil) left or dropped sufficiently close to a live induction coil (read: sensor already tripped by adjacent pan) can heat. And others here have said that ferrous utensils *in the pan* can get quite hot.

I *don't* think induction technology is primitive; it's quite advanced, the most advanced we have IMO. But I do think it is a little immature, by virtue of its relative newness to the consumer market and its complexity. That complexity has, so far anyway, resulted in reliability, repairability, longevity and cost-benefit concerns that detract from claims that induction appliances are panacea for all our cooking problems. I just find it irksome that any new technology is accorded superior status simply by virtue of its arrival (Akin to awarding a person the Nobel Peace Prize for giving a speech about what they *plan* to do). I'm irked mostly because that prejudice inculcates in people an ignorant disrespect (if not complete unawareness) of old technologies that work quite well and sometimes better.

Rather than getting answers from the Euro companies who make these (What's the prosaic American expression... "Wouldn't say sh#t if they had a mouthful"?), we should be getting answers from the service and repair cohort and statistics on longevity and true performance (rather than convenience and necessity). I mean, I love Europe and European people and things more than most, but it's never a good answer to just emulate them *because* they're European.

I think we agree that time will tell. My own prediction is that induction is here to stay, will be a useful tool, and will be progressively debugged and refined. Hopefully we will not outsmart ourselves.

Aloha,
Kaleo

[Dave5440]

Hehe skip to 45sec.

[ellabee]

I don't think that induction is being accorded superior status simply by virtue of its arrival, and I certainly don't think anyone should emulate European items because they're European... I mean that the technology has been in widespread enough use in Europe for long enough so that it has been debugged and refined quite a bit already. Agreed that we could benefit from service and repair info from that large installed base, but you were asking questions about the workings, which can and should be answered by the manufacturer.

[kaleokahu]

Hi, ellabee:

We simply disagree about the neotech- and Euro-philia. IMO, both are rampant, and a factor second only to convenience as for why people go that route.

I think SWISSAIRE'S contributions here should give us all pause to reflect on exactly *how* widespread and debugged induction really is in Europe. Making the judgment of "widespread enough" and "long enough" is a subjective call. More widespread and longer *than here*? Sure, point taken.

I will take your suggestion and contact De Deitrich to attempt to get some answers as to faetures.

Aloha,
Kaleo

[Dave5440]

Geesus where to start on the "experts" where right , smoking tobacco is good for you1950's cocaine is good for you,1970's california doctors no less, put butter on a burn(my mother still insists this is right) my point is be very suspicious

[Chemicalkinetics]

Kind of yes, but kind of no. The problem of the round bottomed induction stoves are that they are designed for a specific wok shape, but woks do not just come in one size and one shape.

[KissesFromParis]

I concur. In fact, I timed boiling half a liter of water on my induction and my gas cooktop in a de Buyer carbon steel pan. Carbon steel are extremely fast on induction. Induction came out winner, boiling water 50% faster than my gas stove.

BTW, cast iron does work on induction, but one must be very careful to heat it slowly, by gradually increasing power, else your cast iron may crack.

[dixiegal]

>I think induction manufacturers haven't done a very good job in educating the American public on what can and can't be done on their cooktop.<

This would be me. I never even heard of it until I got on this board. If the Chef's on TV would start using them, you might see more people going for it. I see most of the Chef's using gas, so that makes me think it is better. I have an electric stove, but may very well change to gas when the time comes. If nothing else, just so I can cook when my electricity goes off. Nothing ticks me off more than to be in the middle of cooking when the electricity goes off. It can totaly ruin your dinner. When we heated with a wood stove, I loved cooking on top of that.
Maybe it was psycological, but the food tasted better too.

[cowboyardee]

" For example, I know plenty of people who has no problem with buying iPhone, but has trouble buying induction cooktop, and I am sure you have sensed the same attitude here on CHOWHOUND. Many people here can afford a coolection of Le Cresuset cookware, and are not willing to pay for an induction cooktop."
________
This is true. But talking about individuals is different from talking about populations. It's not a matter of whether people can literally afford to buy a $1500 stovetop, but one of whether greater wealth as a population increases the likelihood of said $1500 stovetop being popular and commonplace. Intuitively, I think it does.

I wrote below about some of the more specific reasons I think induction is less common in the US, btw. I think it has a lot to do with not only wealth and class structure in the US, but also the cooking and eating trends among different classes.

[Chemicalkinetics]

The individuals are merely for illustration to show that even for people who can easily afford induction stovetop, they are not doing it. This begs the question if we (Americans) are really limited because we don't have enough money to buy induction stovetop or we just don't want them.

Also US gas price is much lower than European gas price. For many Americans getting an induction stovetop isn't necessary going to cut cost. For Europeans, an induction stovetop will save them money.

Electric cars will be more popular in Europe than in US.

[cowboyardee]

Those are valid points. I'm sure there's more than one reason that induction hasn't caught on here. Gas prices and access are perfectly good reasons.

But that doesn't mean that comparative wealth and wealth distribution have nothing to do with the matter. It's more popular in countries that have higher standards of living, larger middle classes. Seems obvious to me that standard of living would have some bearing on the popularity of an item that's largely considered a luxury.

[Rella]

Wow! Class, wealth, world power costs discussion.

People who watched "Mad Men" should be aware that advertising might fall somewhere into this discussion.
I suppose there have been surveys of people who 'did' purchase induction. But alas, that is not the crux of this discussion. Would those people who did purchase induction fall under the auspices of 'world power plants," and 'class'?
Making me wonder just what category I might fall nto.
Awaiting viewing of the survey :-))

[sueatmo]

Really the percentage of home cooks who own Le Creuset or similar, has to be small. I imagine there are more who do afford an Iphone or Ipad, than see the need for induction. But I feel that induction is frightfully expensive, in a market where appliances have become generally more expensive, and unreliable. And I don't think that induction is considered a necessary and fun tool, the way smart phones and tablets have become.

I disagree with you about the reasoning behind not choosing induction. If my cooktop goes out, there is no way I can afford an induction replacement, and I don't think I am in a minority.

[mikie]

Since this is a cooking/eating board, I would take exception that more people have an Iphone/Ipad than LC or similar cookware. For the general population, you are probably correct, but I personally only have a low cost Ipod, but have 4 pices of Staub enameled cast iron. For a cooking/eating board, I don't think I'm an exception.

For the past 20 years every time our cheap coil cooktop went out I fixed it rather than buy a new one because we have had a kitchen rmomdel in the future for a very long time. But when it was time to buy, the additional cost of induction was not a factor, but I think that has to do with what we were comparing to. To keep comparisons as fair as possible, I'll stick to one brand and one size top. We bought an Electrolux Icon 36" gas slide in range top, internet price today $2000. The highest end model Electrolux Icon 36" gas slide in range top has a price today of $2700. Same brand 36" Induction cook top is $2200 and a 36" gas drop in from Electrolux Icon series is $1300. For us, at least, the induction top fell between the two gas range tops we looked at and was actually less expensive than some other brands we considered. And the $200 difference between what we bought and the induction unit was not an issue. I will grant that this is a fair amount of money for an appliance and the induction unit is $900 more than the drop in cooktop, and that would be enough to influence a purchasing decision. But on a message board that's all about cooking and food, I think if people really wanted induction and really thought there was a significant advantage, many would spend the extra money. I'm not trying to sound eletist, what I spent on a range top is nothing compared to what people are spending on Capital, or Bluestar, or Wolf, and those are obviously not in everyone's budget or on everyone's bucket list. I just think the population on CH is differrent than the general population when it comes to passion for cookware.

[KissesFromParis]

Induction doesn't have to be expensive. Here in Europe, it isn't. Prices have dropped with selling numbers.

[mikie]

I think selling prices always drop as a function of the economies of scale. Take ranges in general, they sell more freestanding ranges than any other kind, so even though you need to have finished sides on them they are less expensive than the drop in or slide in models where there are no sides. It just hasn't been pushed in the US for a number of reasons, like it has been in Europe, again, for a number of reasons, so it's still more expensive here than a comparable radient heat electric stove or a gas stove. When glass/ceramic tops came out they were much more expensive than the open calrod models, not so much now.

[Roland Parker]

"Inequality-adjusted standard of living (or human development index, as it is now measured) might be a better indicator of what the bulk of a population can actually afford than 'disposable income.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_..."

The cost of living is exceedingly high in most of the top countries you listed. Norway, to take as an example, has shockingly high food and housing costs and most Norwegians are hardly flaunting large volumes of disposable wealth. My Norwegian friends ate out and drank less frequently than Americans did and lived much more quiet lives in smaller houses and apartments simply because everything was so expensive. So I wouldn't take the list as a good indicator of the actual wealth or disposal income available to a typical citizen of the said nation.

That aside, the advantage of the induction cookers is that it can cook food much more quickly but that comes with its own limits. I gather that most people who cook are pretty comfortable with the times required and have little interest in something that cooks even more quickly. Those who are genuinely time starved = eat out or takeaway. On top of that the article makes clear that you do have to pay close attention to the cooking process due to the high heat involved, something which wouldn't appeal to a lazy cook or a typical cook. In its own way the traditional stove buys you time when cooking, time you can devote to other cooking tasks, and I'm not sure if I want to give up that time.

What would be ideal for me is a traditional gas range top with an electric oven, and a separate induction burner for pasta water.

[BobB]

"you do have to pay close attention to the cooking process due to the high heat involved"

Say what? That's absurd - once you learn how much heat you get at each temperature setting you simply select the right setting, from the lowest occasional-bubble simmer to the highest boil-me-now-baby insanity.

Yes, induction burners CAN get hotter than gas or electric, but only if you turn them way up. They can also hold steady LOWER temperatures than many other cooktops, especially the high-end gas ones.

[cowboyardee]

"The cost of living is exceedingly high in most of the top countries you listed. Norway, to take as an example, has shockingly high food and housing costs and most Norwegians are hardly flaunting large volumes of disposable wealth."
_______
Take another look at the methodology of the income-adjusted HDI. Cost of living is factored in. Anyway, the fact that food and housing costs are high entails that local food and housing providers are well-paid (incidentally, higher cost of housing might also make induction more popular in apartments). No one will deny that an American doctor, partnered lawyer, business exec, etc is financially better off than their Norwegian counterpart. I'm talking about the bulk of the population.

If you're still not convinced, then try hanging around with some truly impoverished Americans. There's a lot more of em than you seem to realize.

As far as the appeal of induction goes, at this point I think it does appeal mainly to people who are very interested in cooking but are also somewhat budget-conscious. A high-output, well-controlled gas range costs more than a comparably high-output induction range. That's why i argued below that the strength and size of a country's middle class will have some bearing on the popularity of induction - the genuinely poor cannot reasonably afford it, and the rich are guided by other concerns.

I'll accept that class distinctions and wealth distribution may be dwarfed as a factor next to energy infrastructure. But not that low cost of food and board means that poor Americans are better off or can afford better gadgetry.

[Roland Parker]

I have had the privilege of living overseas for prolonged periods of time, first in Europe then Asia and now the Middle East. All with long stints in between in the US. So I absolutely have a very good idea of the actual cost of living and food expenditures in the various parts of the world and the lifestyle of the typical resident in Western Europe, Scandinavia, the UK, Indonesia and now the UAE and how they compare to the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

You can see that ranking by income and ranking by purchasing power isn't the same. The US does very well, especially considering it's a huge and diverse country of 300+ million people, including a large immigration population, and the only countries that are "richer" both on per capita and by PPP are much smaller, much more homogenous countries or city states with a few million people.

Europe was unquestionably the most expensive place for us to live and Scandinavia and Switzerland the most expensive within Europe. As much as $50 for a mediocre takeaway pizza was the norm in Oslo.

http://www.stavangerexpats.com/cultur...

Given the high utilities costs in Europe induction cooking is probably preferred as a means to save money rather than because it's a fancy new technology. But we are drifting away from the main topic of this thread and the Chowhound Team will no doubt be along to reprimand us.

[cowboyardee]

In a very basic sense, you're still comparing how well off the respective middle and upper classes are in said countries, while I was comparing, in a basic sense, the size of the middle class as a proportion of the whole population. They're very different questions.

"Given the high utilities costs in Europe induction cooking is probably preferred as a means to save money rather than because it's a fancy new technology. "
_________
I agree, generally. Mikie has made a very convincing argument that energy infrastructure in Europe tends to favor induction. I still don't know a whole lot about the energy infrastructure in Australia, and I would be surprised if other factors didn't also play a role, but I think we can agree that low availability of gas, high price for electric, and low voltage in households all tend to favor induction.

[John E.]

Do the induction stoves in Europe start at $1800 and go up from there? I too think the second biggest reason induction stovetops are not more prevalent in the U.S. is because of the high cost. The biggest reason is that they are new to the U.S. market and change is a hard thing to overcome in the marketing process.

[BobB]

Not any more - you can get a full cooktop for ~$1500, or a partial for even less. Plus there are plenty of people out here discussing the relative merits of high-end ranges like Wolf, Viking, Capital etc, which can easily cost more than a good induction unit.

[escondido123]

I bought a Blue Star, but it's a complete range not just a cooktop. (My sister bought an induction cooktop last year, has already had it repaired three times and couldn't use it in the weeks involved.)

[GH1618]

The relatively few people buying high-end ranges are a small part of the equation. I suspect that they are greatly overrepresented on this website.

[cowboyardee]

I think income distribution in the US has a lot to do with it.

$1500 is still a lot more than most Americans spend on cooktops. There are a lot of small, under-powered gas and electric ranges in the US, just because they're cheap to buy. And as I mentioned above to Chem, the average American is functionally poorer than the average Australian or Western European.

As a trend, I'd say wealthy Americans, the general kind that might own a Wolf, Viking, induction, etc, don't cook very much. So selling them on the function of a cooking device doesn't help too much - they'd rather have something traditional and familiar and well-branded in the kitchen for when they do decide to do a little cooking or sell their home. Induction's single biggest advantage over the highest end of gas ranges is being more affordable than a comparably high-output, high-quality cooktop - for many of the people who buy especially high-end cooktops, that difference in cost isn't a big deal. Tradition, brand name appeal, and familiarity are more important.

OTOH, American food enthusiasts are coming around on induction - it's fairly popular here on CH, if that's any indicator. But that adoption by foodies is slower than it might be just because induction still isn't very common and thus people aren't exposed to it. You'll see more of it soon as American food enthusiasts buy more induction ranges and expose others to its capabilities. But it hasn't reached critical mass yet where it's well understood by American cooks at large.

[Roland Parker]

Perhaps the answer is that the typical American eats out much more frequently than his European counterpart. Food is cheaper in the US and post-tax disposal income is often higher. The US may have more poor people than a typical European country, but it also has a much bigger affluent population. So the typical American really isn't bothered by what type of stove he has since odds are he isn't cooking on it as much as his European counterpart would. Just food for thoughts.

[beachmouse]

We spent about $1250, IIRC, on our entire 'premium' electric range. The cooktop is adequate for our purposes; the convection oven can roast a fair-sized turkey in less than two hours. This was considered to be a lot to spend on a stove in my somewhat affluent area. Most folks still go with the sub-$1000 range around here- the $899 Lowe's or Sears specials abound.

And this is an area where less than 10% of homes will have a gas stove- CH&A is almost always by electric heat pump, and a lot of original homebuyers figured it wasn't worth it to run a gas line just for stove and water heater.

If a stove with an induction cooktop was priced within about 20% of the cost of conventional electric,then you'd probably see a fair number of people willing to bite around here. But when you're talking twice as much to attain similar base functions once you factor in the oven, plus making the home harder to sell (we're in a military town- lots of churning of housing stock as people PCS, so it really matters) it's a deal-breaker.

[dave_c]

While a basic electric range is around $400 which makes for a $1000 savings.
Also, the need for ferrous cookware can be an extra expense for some people.

I don't know what the annual savings of an induction hob versus an electric hob. I've read somewhere that it's around $5 savings per years for an average user.

So it would take 200 years to break even on the cost alone. If you saved $50 a year it would take 20 years to recoup the extra $1000... etc.

[BobB]

Frankly, for me any energy savings or fuel cost differences are incidental, the main thing is simply that induction performs so much better than electric.

[dave_c]

To answer your original question, "What gives?"

Cost is a big factor. Many homes have existing kitchens. Also, new home construction generally goes the the less expensive equipment, unless they offer options to upsell.

Another factor is durability. Buying a new range is probably an every 20 year purchase. There's not enough turnaround to get units out the door.

[jkling17]

Well induction is certainly "cool". But I can't imagine justifying switching to it from an economic standpoint - at least for us here in the US. Ok - well if one already HAS electric AND is renovating a kitchen ... ok. Yeah I get that. The $500+ premium performs much better than a standard electric cooktop and is also good on usage.

But I can't see that changing from gas to induction makes any sense. That would cost what? At least $1000-1300+ including the cooktop, permits, and electric work. Even IF energy savings might be $20 per month vs gas (doubtful), the ROI just isn't there.

All I'm saying is that the choice really isn't about economics - for us Americans - it's a lifestyle choice if we already don't have gas.

[kaleokahu]

I think the savings for the average family of 4 that switches is around $24-27 per *year*. Saving electricity is pretty much the worst reason to switch.

[KissesFromParis]

There is no technical reasons for induction to be that expensive. It's only a marketing problem. In Europe, prices have dropped dramatically and you can get a range with 4 burners for less than 300 euros. On many other things, like stainless steel pans, we pay twice as much as you do.