Henckels Zwilling their collections so confusing
Me and my fiance are buying our first home this year and we're starting to collect some necessary cookware.
We're set on Henckels flatware and would like to match Henckels knives, we're just that way, we like our things to match.
Trying to research the one line of Henckels Zwilling is so confusing that I've been at it for 3 days and I'm still getting no where. What should be simple and enjoyable is so frustrating, starting with Henckels stamped vs forged, fairly easy pick, forged it is.
But then we move to Single person stamp on knife (supposedly international) to twin person stamp.
After that we move to made in Germany, Spain or China production. Even further into looking I find Professional S line which looks pretty nice, but then I get stopped again, some of the Pro S line has red stickers on the handles and some of it has not, some of it has red stamp on the blade, same of it has regular black.
This company is so confusing, so many variables and no where do they organize they collection showing which is in what tier, you have to hop from one website to another, trying to piece everything together.
"We're set on Henckels flatware and would like to match Henckels knives"
..... Forget about the fact that Henckels flatware are not that great, there just isn't any "matching" between Henckels flatware to Henckels kitchen cultery. They are not even the same design.
"Henckels stamped vs forged, fairly easy pick, forged it is."
In general, forged knives are not necessary better than stamped knives.
"This company is so confusing, so many variables and no where do they organize they collection showing which is in what tier, you have to hop from one website to another, trying to piece everything together."
It is confusing, but not as confusing the way you described it. Most of the Henckels Zwilling knives are made of the same steel. The only difference is the handle. So pick the handles you like. For example, Henckel's Four Star II is made of the same blade as Henckels Professional "S"
I agree with your last statement about the handles. But, there is a HUGE difference between stamped and forged knives. A stamped knife is just that. The cut the shape out of the blank of steel. Polish, shape, and sharpen it. Apply the handle and done. A forged knife is is just that. The steel is put through the forging process. With out getting to complicated, the steel is heated to extreme temperatures and cooled at extreme temperatures. This process makes the steel harder (for edge retention and durability) and more resistant to rusting.
Aside from high end lines like Cronidur, Kramer, and Cerimax, etc. the premium brand is made of Zwilling's special formula steel. The handle is what differentiate, like you said.
After much investigation with the Henkel's knives I selected the PRO S and I am extremely pleased with their cutting ability not mention my fingers at times when they get in the way. I've had to retrain me using them because they cut like hot metal going through butter. I've had my set for a year now and wouldn't trade them for another brand!
#Chemical I agree about the CONFUSION aspect on the varying tiers. When shopping for Henkel's 2013 I became so overwhelmed with the many differences and all my cross checking became more confusing trying to keep everything straight so I wrote the company pointing out this same thing but the response wasn't what I expected other than I'll check into it. I asked for simplicity comparison because I had read so many customers just as confused as I was. Now I have my Pro S set I have not looked to see if they changed the comparison issue. I had even asked about the RED label on the handles and found when they manufactured some were with and some were without; it had no specific designation to any knife! Go figure! Earlier production dates were the knives are stamped Red on the handle; no difference just an older knife. In some knife sets they throw in a Red Handle, too, which makes one odd knife; they wouldn't change mine.
For Henckel, I'd go with either the Professional S or the 4 star series. Certainly I'd suggest the twin person stamp, and German production. I have many pieces of the Professional S and was certainly happy enough with them. The 4 star my uncle has and seems similar just a different handle. My parents have the international set, and they aren't bad, but the Professional is noticibly better.
If you are buying individual knives, and don't have the biggest preference in style, I'd suggest the Santoku. It was my most used Henckel, and the reason is it can be used similar to a chef knife, but has a thinner blade and no bolster. The thing I hated most about my Henckel chef knife was the bolster.
If money is no object then their Miyabi line or the Damascus or some of the other lines have stronger steel but can get more pricey.
As for the red labels, i vaguely recall seeing them in the store as I walk past, but I am not sure what the difference is if there is any difference.
Many people will tell you there are other options to Henckel, but you've already decided you want to match, and you will definitely get knives that you can be happy using for many years.
You can buy sets, but you may be inclined just to go with individual knives which you can ad to each year. The sets mostly come in the international anyways. You can save money buy only buying what you need at the start, a chef knife and a paring knife and maybe a bread knife but don't need the boning knife or anything right away.
Again, the santoku was my favourite, with no bolster, but I used a 12" chef knife in school, and enjoyed it enough, but much prefered the 10" I had at home. I have had no problems with the Profesional S knives except sharpening them was difficult because of the bolster, but you may end up sending them somewhere to be sharpened anyways.
Kitchen supply stores are good places to get deals, and most will carry Henckels and have different handles available to try. You can probably get them much cheaper in a restaurant supply store then a department store.
Bolster needs to go away. It is just getting more and more meaningless. The whole idea of forged is better than stamped is just... shall we say? Marketing. Only the uneducated would believe craps like these. Lucky enough for the sellers, there are enough people believe that. Your freakly $8 Nakiri (without knowing it for sure) is most likely better than these overpriced knives. You know it, and I know it.
marketing has nothing to do with it. with all due respect, You are mistaken. it is more about chemistry and physics than marketing. Heating the steel forces the carbides to spread evenly as possible. this reactions strengthens the steel. Cooling it locks in those properties and aids in rust resistance.
<...Heating the steel forces the carbides to spread evenly as possible....>
But you don't need to forge a knife to get that. What I wrote was that "The whole idea of forged is better than stamped is just... shall we say? Marketing."
You can get very nice heat treated stamped knife too. In fact, better known knives like Shun and Global and Tojiro are all stamped and not forged.
As for the bolster help weight distribution and balance, I don't entirely disagree, but I don't entirely agree either. I think you can get perfectly balanced knives without a bolster.
These knives are not forged by pounding a hot piece of iron into a knife, like this (at 30 second):
If you want to classify knives into stamped vs forged, then Shun, Global, Miyabi...etc are all stamped. Clad Ward likes to use the term "machined knives" to distinguish these higher end stamped knives from old images of cheap stamped knives.
They are very good knives, but they are not forged.
The marketing people may use the word "forged", but that is exactly the problem I have been saying. People are buying into the ideal of forging is better because the marketing.
Let's take Shun Classic knives for example. They have a cutting core steel of VG-10 jacketed/sandwiched in between the soft SUS410. This is not form forging.
To quote Chad Ward:
"The knives we're really talking about here have been taking the professional cooking world by storm for the last several years and they are starting to make headway into the home market. You may have seen knives by Global or MAC infiltrating your local Gourmet Hut. They are good examples of this new type of knife. The blades are cut and precision ground from
a billet of high-alloy steel, a method that custom knife makers refer to as stock removal. They are indeed laser cut or punched from a sheet or thin bar of steel, but the level of finish that goes into them is equal
to any of the forged knives. Indeed, the manufacturing process is nearly identical. I think of them as machined knives to distinguish them from stamped knives."
Cookingforengineers.com also pointed this out:
"Final notes of interest
Most salespeople working at the cutlery counter of your local stores will tell you that a forged knife is a sign of a strong sturdy knife and any forged knife is superior to a stamped knife. This may have been true in the past, but this is definitely no longer a universal truth. The two MAC knives tested in this article are stamped knives with bolsters that are welded on, ground, and polished. MAC Knife claims that using the stamped steel gives them a level of control over the tempering, the bevels, and the thinness of the blade. I don't know if all that's true, but I do know that the two chef's knives we tested out performed all of the forged knives. Ah, but, you argue, the MAC knives tied or were slightly beaten by the Global G-2? The Global G-2 is also a stamped knife. "
the Pro line is the future of the company. A traditional bolster is created during the forging process, this is why you will not find a bolster on a stamped knife. The bolster helps with weight distribution and balance. The new lines with the "curved bolster" allow the thumb and forefinger to rest perfectly while using the pinch grip method.
Toyopl: I'd like to stay with Henckels, since my father has one Classic 6'' slicer knife and I really like it.
German or French blade shapes are pretty universal. European knives tend to be thicker and Asian blades generally are thinner.
Whether Wusthof or Henckels, they are going to feel the same in the cut. The only meaningful difference is in the handle.
A French chef knife will have a lower point so, it cuts better on a cutting board then a higher tip German pattern.
Before you spend a lot of money on high end knives, I would suggest trying some cheaper options from Spain or *gasp* China. Muella knives perform well for the vast majority of people. The chef branded China imports at the big box places work well too.
You are talking about 2 different brands owned by the same company. The 2 guy logo is the premium brand ZWILLING JA HENCKELS, Zwilling means twin in German hence the twin logo. With very few exceptions all products with the twin logo are made in Germany. The exceptions are the Cermax and Bob Kramer knives, these are made in their factory in Japan. The single guy logo is the value brand JA HENCKELS INTERNATIONAL, these knives are lower in price and made in Spain or Asia. The difference between the different color stickers is exactly that, the color nothing else.
I find these knives a little confusing too. a few years ago I decided on the Pro S series and got a basic 3 knife set with the butcher block. It is an 8 inch, 6 inch and 4 inch knives. Oh and it also included a sharpening steel that seems to short to me. It is only about as long as my longest knife. I have not added to these knives because I really don't know what I should get. Several years ago there was a tomato knife that appealed to me. But now I don't think they are available. I don't know much about knives, but these knives seem really nice to me. I am thinking that I would like one of the Santoku knives. But I really don't know, so I just keep using the ones that I have. I also would like some poultry shears. There is a place in my block for those.
As for sharpening. I have not tried that yet, because I am not very good at it. My dad can put an edge on one that you can do surgery with. I kid you not. I have cut myself with his knives and never felt it. Just saw blood. I don't know how he gest such an edge on a knife. He just uses a regular old knife sharpening stone. Nothing special.
I think I should probably use some kind of knife sharpening machine or something.
>100% behind Sid. Please do NOT use a electric sharpening machine<
Well, thanks for the warning, I will forget that.
I think my problem with hand sharpening is not getting the angle right on the knife.
I do have a knife sharpening thing that I got and Smokey Mountain Knife works, It isn't electric, you just drag your knife through it. There are two sections on it. One is for fine honing.
I have used it on my pocket knives and my everyday inexpensive kitchen knives. It is not exceptional, but does put a decent edge on the knives. I have not used it on my good knives. I guess I just need to read up on knife sharpening. But I find that as confusing as newbies to Cast Iron find seasoning and cooking with it confusing. Mostly because there are so many different ways to do it.
So many different types of stones. Some say to use oil, some say water. I never saw my dad use anything. Just the stone.
First, congratulations. I hope that your marriage lasts a lifetime and is a very happy one.
I agree with the folks who don't think that you should necessarily match flatware to your knives. There really is no relationship there. Get the flatware that you LOVE, that feels COMFORTABLE in your hands. That's really, IMO, the most important thing about flatware.
As to knives, my first thing - do NOT get a set. Just buy a few truly good critical knives. Truthfully about all most people really need is one awesome chef's knife (or santoku / gyuto) and one decent paring knife. Don't splurge on the paring knife. IF one of you turn into very serious chefs and then have a need for a better paring knife, you can always get one later.
Again, the most important single thing about your primary cooking/prep knife is how comfortable it is in your hands. Global is a super brand but ... their handles are a bit unique. Go to a few stores and decide if you prefer the feel of a global, a typical western handle or a Japanese style handle.
For sure, there ARE good Henckels chef knives. It's just that a really good Japanese knife is a much better value. Mark has a great selection at chefknivestogo.com. If you are truly SET on Heckles, just get one good chef's knife or santoku and a paring knife. You can very easily add to those two key knives over time. I wouldn't poo-poo Henckles International stamped knives. They come very sharp out of the box and are easy to keep that way. Their dual 7 and 5" santoku set is an excellent value at like $20. The smaller one is often really nice in the smaller hands of a woman ... your finance may well find the 5" a great utility knife. My mother LOVES it.
You will also need something to keep those knives sharp. It won't really take all that long for regular use to take a great knife down from "razor sharp" to "sorta sharp". Here is a good initial resource to read up and give you some ideas. http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/
I personally like the DMT stones. But I don't want to go on about sharpening and hijack your thread.
Thank you, enjoyed reading this.
I was surprised about Henckels poor feedback on flatware so I read a bit on it, and I can't really find too many decent comments on it, most what I read is lack of quality control, that really surprised me, but I liked that I knew more and could make a better decission.
I'm in the process of reading about what flatware companies are good as far as quality goes, reading about yamazaki, oneida and others, I wll put some time into it.
So since the flatware will be other company other than Henckels, I'm pretty much open to anything at this point when it comes to knifes.
I tried my fathers german made 6'' Zwilling slicing knife and I got really used to it, it was my go to knife for last 5 years, and that makes me question Chef's knifes, I'm so used to cmall blade on slicing knife, that I don't know if working with chef knife will be awkward now :)
As far as knifes go, I like smaller knives, so I'm guessing 6'' chef knife, 6'' santoku, 8'' bread knife, 3'' peeling knife, steak knifes.
I also need a butcher knife, not sure if that's what it's called, but I buy big slabs of meat in Costco and then cut them into small portions and freeze. I also buy steak, dry age it, and then trim it and portion, so nice knife would be good for this.
"6'' chef knife, 6'' santoku..."
6" inch santoku makes a lot more sense than 6" Chef's knife. A 6" Chef's knife does not have the same contact board space as a 6" santoku.
"I also need a butcher knife..."
A butcher knife, a boning knife or a meat cleaver? Rarely residential cook needs a butcher knife.
RE: flatware ... again what you READ is one thing. The feel of them in your hands ... to me that is everything. Next Sat, after you two finish up with your typical morning "being engaged wake up routine" ... head out and visit places like Crate and Barrel, etc. All decent brands are decent brands - period. 3 tine, 4 tine ... whatever. Just try them on for size and pretend to cut up some chicken filets, steaks, etc. Make a short list of the one's that feel comfortable for both and you and then just decide which style you both prefer. Online research is, IMO, useless for picking out flatware.
As to knives .... now you are providing some really good info on what you LIKE to us ... and how you wish to USE them. Awesome!
Honestly, I would skip the bread knife - you can always get one later. By 3" peeling knife I think that you mean 3" paring knife? Any will do ... really. Mine is a $10 mundial or wusthof. Nothing special and I keep it razor sharp.
A SHARP knife will beat - HANDS DOWN - a less sharp expensive or fancy brand knife. Just make sure the handle is comfortable in your hands.
Since you have been so kind as to point out that you probably will prefer shorter blades (I like them too), here are a few thoughts.
1. Steak knives. They can be whatever brand you like. I have Mundial but whatever. Get whatever you want. I prefer non-serrated - they are easier to keep sharp (plates dull knives ...).
2. Steel for prep knives? Consider whether your lifestyle is better for stainless or carbon steel. Carbon takes a better edge and is easy to sharpen up. Really good carbon edges hold up very well. They are my 1st choice, without question. BUT ... you must be willing to give them a quick hand-wash after using them and wipe them dry. They will rust if you don't.
Stainless vs carbon ... well - you know you better than we do. If you are the type who wants the best and will take care of it - get carbon. If you aren't as careful get stainless.
3. WHAT do you prep? A lot of meat, clearly! So one good chef / gyuto / santoku is a good choice. Gyuto is basically a Japanese chef knife, with their wa style handle. I love these handles personally and use a pinch grip. If you LIKE a pinch grip, you may well love the Japanese handles. If you prefer a handle grip ... gosh I just don't know.
4. Slicing knives. If you will do a LOT of slicing of roasts, then one decent slicer might make sense. Others here honestly have more experience with these than I - and in the past have recommended some really good economical choices.
5. Veggies? I prep primary veggies and meat. So ... I bought a nakiri last year and it is now my very best knife. Very high quality Japanese steel and a super flat profile. LOVE it for veggies. What I also learned from buying this knife is that a single VERY high quality blade, if it has the right profile can be used for nearly everything and be your "go to" knife.
6. So ... you need to do a lot of meat ... so a nakiri for you can't be your ONE super knife. A santoku, chef or gyuto could be. None of us know what the best handle design is for you or (yet) what type of grip you employ. In any case, I'd budget about $75-100 for this knife.
Here are a few knives that may be worth your consideration:
1. http://www.chefknivestogo.com/dojogyu.... I own the nakiri version of this gyuto and it's the best knife that I own, hands-down. It's blue carbon core with stainless cladding, and a western handle. I prefer a Japanese handle but I do really love this knife.
2. Tojiro. If you want a stainless blade, you would be hard-pressed to find a better knife for the money. http://www.chefknivestogo.com/tojirod.... Some of these also come with wa handles but most have western styles. They also have a white carbon line that is even more reasonable and is well worth your consideration.
3. Global. Some of the finest blades around for the money. It's very important to feel these in person as their handles are unique. They have a 5" santoku that might be just super for you ...
That's it for now. There are a LOT of really really good knives out there. Heck, the dual santoku Henckels international set that I got for my parents a few years ago for $20 are still "good" .... because they are VERY sharp. And keep that edge pretty well (the cutting board needs to be plastic or wood or knives will dull FAST).
Hopefully, you have some stores nearby that have a wide selection of Japanese knives, with Global, Shun, and others - so that you can feel them in your hands.
One last thing - I don't OWN this (yet) but the CCK cleaver is something that you may really want to get. Check it out. I already own a cheap chinese cleaver and a super nakiri so I can't really justify (even to myself) getting a CCK just because I want it. But ... you are just starting out ...
I looked at Tojiro DP line, since they have matching steak knives.
But I think that these knives rust if not taken care of properly ?
I don't think I'm that kind of person that would care for the knives right after every cut or meal.
My fiance especially would treat them as normal knives, meaning use and abuse, with leaving them wet, or in a sink on a soaked plate.
I liked the price of Tojiro, I loved their reviews and little videos on the web showing these off.
Does this mean I need stainless steel knives only ?
I read a LOT before I started. That one link is a pretty good place to start. Here's another resource: http://www.bladeforums.com/
And then there are LOTS of good videos on youtube. I especially like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4--HID.... All that is done with 3M abrasive films instead of stones and lapping. This method is called "scary sharp". The earlier stages can use high quality sandpaper instead of 3M films.
There are lots of ways to go about it. I went with DMT stones and their aligner. For someone just getting started, I'd probably recommend practicing hand sharpening on a few sheets of good sandpaper and practice on a knife that is decent but not great. Any automotive store will have the kind of paper you need. Get 1-2 sheets of 320 (coarse), 600 (fine) and 1000 OR 1200 grit (x-fine). 1000-1200 will get an edge pretty darn sharp. You won't want to shave with it but it'll do nicely with prepping food. And you'll learn good technique pretty quickly.
If your time is a premium and you just want to get it done fast - then get a DMT stone like the diafold x-fine / xx-fine (green and tan). For under $30 it's a very good deal. You can get a guide for it too but I have found that hand sharpening isn't really all that tough after all.
The "Ice Hardened" knives are probably among their top tier:
If you look at the series overview you'll notice the handle shape, handle material, bolster are unique to each series:
You should choose the knife that feels right in your hands. There are subtle things like handle shape, texture of the handle material, preference on bolster shape or no bolster, and weight that should be taken into consideration. When you are chopping food for an hour these subtle attributes will quickly become noticeable. From my experience the height of the blade from the cutting board is also an important consideration.
You should get knives, not because they match your flatware, but because they feel good in your hand (I'm assuming you're talking about chef's knives, etc., and not steak knives). My advice: go to a good cutlery store and talk to them about what you need. They know their merchandise, and they'll be happy to help you out.
I emailed the company for a detail on their selections. It helped immensely so I bought the Twin Pro S series this week!
TWIN Series – Premium Brand
TWIN Profection – full tang, three rivet handle, award winning
TWIN Professional ‘S’ – full tang, three rivet traditional handle
TWIN Cuisine – ergonomic molded handle with full tang
Four Star – the world’s most popular upscale knife, original molded handle knife
Four Star II – updated version of the world’s most popular upscale knife, original molded handle with a metal cap on the end
The blades are the same on all of the above one is not considered better than the other – all have special formulated steel made to Zwilling J.A. Henckels’ specifications and all are Friodur® ice-hardened, a process of heating, cooling and re-heating that changes the molecular structure of the blade for optimum no-stain features and an extremely long-lasting edge.
TWIN Gourmet – full tang, three rivet handle design, made in Spain.
TWIN Signature – ergonomic full tang, three rivet handle with Henckels logo in the handle, made in Germany.
Stamped knives are slightly lighter than forged but are still excellent cutting tools – all Henckels’ stamped knives are also Friodur ice-hardened as explained above, and use a special formula steel.
In addition to the above, Henckels recently purchased a very high end Japanese factory and has started producing TWIN Asian style knives made in Japan. There is the Miyabi line which is also made in Japan. It has four series and offers true to Japanese tradition a variety of Asian knives. These are made at a different angle than traditionally used Western knives and the edges are also razor sharp.
2.Henckels International Series – Value Brand
Classic – full tang, three rivet, made in Spain
French Forged – full tang, three rivet, made in Spain exclusively for Costco
Forged Pro - full tang, three rivet, made in Spain
Forged Premio – molded handle, made in China
Forged Synergy – molded handle with stainless steel cap and rivets, made in China
Mikado- forged blades are made in China from German stainless steel for an excellent cutting edge, weight and balance. Handles are designed with the authentic D-shape Japanese handle for a precision grip. The Mikado character on the end caps signifies an emperor of Japan. Made in China, exclusive to Bed Bath and Beyond.
Fine Edge Pro – full tang, three rivets, made in the J.A. Henckels International factory in China with German stainless steel
Fine Edge Synergy – soft-grip molded handle with brushed stainless steel cap, made in China
Berlin - all stainless steel knife, made in J.A. Henckels International factory in China with German stainless steel
3. Never Needs Sharpening (all serrated knife blades)
Eversharp Pro – full tang, three rivet handle, made in Thailand
Everedge – molded handle, made in Japan
Everedge Plus – soft-grip molded handle with brushed stainless steel cap, made in China
ALSO...be careful buying online as I just spotted two companies that advertise the Twin Pro single knife but are actually selling the Twin Gourmet.....big difference in the two not only price but construction. Look at the company information on the blade of the item you are buying to check out you are getting what you want.
Henkels has TWO signatures" One is the "Twin Logo" for the Forged and the International knife series has only the Single Logo. The majority of International knives are made in Spain and China.
The difference between J.A. Henckels International (One Man Logo) and Zwilling J.A. Henckels (Two Man Logo) is where its a made, what it is made of, and the manufacturing process. The premium brand (two men) is made of Zwilling's Special Formula Steel. A specific recipe made for the company. This is a huge difference. The steel is hard (RC 57) and resistant to rusting. The forged premium lines are made in Germany and have been for almost 300 years. You will find some accessories in the premium line (Stamped steak knives, gadgets, etc) are manufactured in Spain. The factory in spain is owned by Zwilling. And are fantastic.
The JA Henckels international brand is Zwilling's Value brand. It has been registered since 1895. It is for that customer who is either unable or unwilling to afford the premium brand. Made with good german stainless steel, not Zwilling's special formula steel. The lower end of the price scale of their value brand are made in asia, the top tier of the value brand are made in Spain.
I assume this is too late for you guys, but for everyone else reading and still looking.....
You NEED three knives for a functioning and effective home kitchen. 8" Chef, 8"+ Bread, and a 3" or 4" paring knive. You can always add a carving, boning, etc if necessary.