Bread noob needs help, dense bread
Hi, I am a bread baking newbie. I'm learning from Reinhart's Crust and Crumb. My problem is too-dense bread.
I made the first French bread recipe a number of times. Details that might matter: I followed the recipe to the letter (used the right flours and measured by weight, used instant yeast, malt powder, etc, water at the correct temperature, etc.)
I used a stand mixer (Kitchenaid Artisan) to knead the first batches of loaves, and did the last 2 by hand. Baked the first few as he describes (oven + water spray + tray of water), followed his time and temperature schedule, second rise overnight in fridge. Got very dense bread. Also, the crust rapidly became soft once I took it out of the oven. Next few I tried a dutch oven at 450, solved the crust problem but of course as dense as ever. I wanted to stick with one recipe to really learn it, but just to see, I made a pugliese (which uses a pre ferment). Super dense as well.
Internet searches said too much flour, not enough water (maybe) so last batch, I added a little water until dough was a little sticky/tacky. No help. By the way, I don't think I ever got a really good windowpane. I did knead for a varous amounts of time, checked that dough was in 77-80 deg range, windowpanes were never very -- windowpaney. (They tore a lot less when I was done though!)
My oven is a piece of crap (but I did check its temp with a thermometer) if that matters.
Suggestions? I realize there are other recipes and ways to bake, but I would like to nail this French bread recipe rather than give up and try another one.
Sorry about the long post. All help welcome.
Aram
First post!
-
I agree with everyone else- your problem is either not enough gluten development or not enough rise time. French bread is a very stiff dough. You might find it helpful to crank the mixer up before you've added all the flour, when the dough is the consistency of pancake batter. This allows you to get a head start on gluten development without running the risk of burning out the motor. You can use the regular mixing attachment for this, or I like to use the creaming one. Either one will make a lot more contact with the dough than the dough hook does. Let it go for five minutes or so, then switch to the dough hook and add the remaining flour.
-
-
Thanks everyone. I hope I can answer all the questions.
Ingredients are very new. Flours are King Arthur. yes, I'm using instant yeast. Storing in freezer (is ok to do this?), bought it very recently. I did a second rise. Per Reinhart it was a while at room temp (I forget how long, I'm not at home now) then overnight slow rise in fridge. Loaves seemed to double overnight, to my untrained eyes.
Holes were small, really small. Oven temp: sorry for not being clear. When I was opening and closing the door to spritz water, the temp took a big dive. When I used the dutch oven at 450 with the door closed, it seemed to hold ok when I opened it to check.
I kneaded in the KA for probably up to 15 minutes or so, with breaks to check for windowpanes. By hand, I went a half hour. I guess I'll keep going next time. More kneading sounds like the 1st thing to try.
Thanks again,
Aram
›4 Replies-
re: AramS
Yes, do keep the yeast in the freezer. especially if you've bought in quantity. Another factor could be where you live (that would be lucky!). The bread recipes that I used successfully at sea level produced dense bricks when I started baking at 5,000'. The addition of 1tbsp of vital wheat gluten per cup of flour has completely solved that problem. The best advice, stated earlier, is to just keep baking. Try other recipes if Reinhart's proves to more of a frustration than a joy. You can always come back to it after a few lovely successes.
-
re: AramS
dave_c
Jan 31, 2012 05:34 PM
Interesting... 15 minutes in a KA should be more than adequate in terms of kneading and windowpaning.
For the rising, maybe Reinhart's instructions are different, but I would bulk rise overnight in the fridge. The second rise I would take the dough and shape into loaves to rise at room temperature before baking. It reads like you shaped the loaves before refrigerating overnight, which to me seems like the dough is overproofed by the time you bake.
-
-
re: AramS
chowser
Feb 1, 2012 03:30 AM
When you touch it, the dough collapses. I agree that 15 mins in the KA should be plenty but since you're not getting the window pane, try letting it sit for about 10-15 mins and come back to it. The gluten should relax some then. Or, you could try to autolyse as I mentioned above--mix the flour and water and let it sit for about 20 mins, Then add the preferment, yeast and continue. One more question, malt powder? Is that part of the recipe? I don't see it in BBA.
-
-
-
-
dave_c
Jan 31, 2012 04:47 PM
How did your bread look on the inside? Large holes, small holes, no holes?
A few things come to mind...
1) Dense bread leads me to think the dough needed more proofing/rising.
Do you let the dough rise twice? One bulk rise and a second rise after you shape the loaf?2) You are using instant yeast (aka rapid rise yeast, aka bread machine yeast) and not regular active yeast?
3) You weighed the flour and water so that should be fine. One thing you can try is to knead a few minutes and let the dough rest for about 10 minutes before you finish kneading.
4) You're using a KA and the dough did not windowpane? Sounds like you knead to knead a little longer. How long are you kneading in the KA?
-
Bada Bing
Jan 31, 2012 03:48 PM
If your dough wouldn't windowpane, it needs more gluten development. What flours are you using (brand. labeling)? Your yeast might be old or tired, too.
If the crust softened on coming out of the oven, that suggests excess moisture inside the loaf. Bake the loaf to an internal temperature of at least 200 degrees.
Sounds as if you're being very careful about times and temps. But about your oven: you say it's crappy but also that you checked the temp. How is it bad if it held the needed temp?
-
caseyjo
Jan 31, 2012 10:22 AM
Just keep practicing. I'm thinking you may need to knead for longer, it really should be windowpaney. For bread, you really just have to get a feel for how the dough should look, and when it needs more or less water, or more kneading, or more rising, or more all sorts of things. These are hard to write down in a recipe. It took me awhile to get good French bread out of my oven, but once everything clicked it worked like a charm.
So, stick with it! If you keep troubleshooting, it will work eventually.
-
chowser
Jan 31, 2012 10:14 AM
It might be that you didn't knead long enough, especially if the dough didn't get to the window pane stage. You could autolyse the flour and water before mixing up the dough.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/lessons/t...
I let it rest after I knead it and come back in 15 mins or so and the dough has rested, gluten relaxed. At that point, if it hasn't passed the window pane test, I knead a little more. In the winter months, it takes more rise time, too, since my house is much colder. Rather than follow the time exactly, I go by feel of the dough. I can't remember how Crust and Crumb approaches it (It's been years since I read it) but Bread Baker's Apprentice has good descriptions and pictures of what the dough should look like at different stages. If your oven is uneven or doesn't hold heat, it could help to put some tiles in the bottom to help maintain it. I bake on my tiles.
Finally, I assume that you're allowing the bread to cool before cutting (since Peter Reinhart covers that in his books)?
-
Sounds like you did everything you could right, so there's the thing that can be hard to predict - rising time. Did you follow the amount of time that the recipe called for or did you make sure it was double in size? I ask because depending on heat and humidity, it could have risen slower than anticipated, which means it didn't have enough of a rise. One way you can tell if that's the case is if when you sliced it, it was denser around the outside than in the middle.
