Prime Rib Roast Successes and Disasters....

[fourunder]

It's the day after Christmas 2011, and I'm reading about the disasters, both the less than desired and failed results to the expensive roast they purchased for the Holiday Dinner....The prelude to every holiday always has requests for recipes and methods to roast this cherished cut of meat and make it impressive and unforgettable ....the usual members on Home Cooking (like myself) give their preferred methods of preparation and roasting methods....There are usually three camps of wisdom:

1. The low and slow approach.....140-250* for however long it takes

2. Moderate heat of 325-350* .....usually takes about 90-180 minutes depending on size and weight.

3. High Heat of 450-500*....for up to an hour at first, shut off the temp and do not open the door for a period of time....again depending on size and weight.

Now I understand everyone has their different tastes and levels of temperature acceptability...Opinions have often tried to figure out why each poster who recommends an alternative to theirs does so. The only reason I can come up with, like others have opined, is simply that is all they know and how it's always been done in their family. They believe there is no other way.

The problem though is the disasters are unforgettable for the wrong reasons...they either did not like the taste or the finished result.... over-cooked meat which is dry and tough, as opposed to moist and tender. It's obvious to me to give yourself the best chance to make a great roast, you should embrace the low and slow approach which eliminates the possibility of over cooking unless you are passed out for more than two hours of your target temperature.

To those who will not embrace low and slow, what's holding you back?

To those who do embrace low and slow, your thoughts...again please, to try and convince these others from potentially making another disaster..

f.

[blaireso]

I've followed Fourunder's advice for the past four years with the blessing of double ovens. I am anticipating having one oven in the next couple of years as we downsize, and have been paying attention to the heating and resting methodology my fellow CHers have been doing. Also, the aging, dry and wet, that folks are doing. My butcher recommended freezing for 3 days and then thawing for the same, more or less. Idea is that the freeze cycle would tenderize the beef. I also don't have the budget for prime, hence the advice.

The other thing I found fascinating is everyone's ideas for warming plates. Steam, put in skillet and rotate, put in roast oven as it rests, any other ideas? Love your advice, Fourunder, you are my rib roast God!

[weezieduzzit]

Just (another,) thank you to fourunder for sharing your research! I was able to glance at the recipe the inlaws were following like it was law and think "Oh, Shit!" based on what you had written. I turned the oven off 20 minutes early when no one was looking and the end result was a perfect medium, which is exactly their taste.

When I try it here I'll try the low and slow method you've posted about and take it only to med-rare. :)

[fourunder]

Funny story and thanks for sharing.....

[sandylc]

I sort of used Kenji's and your methods combined. I got a 3-rib, 5.86-pound roast, small end. I dried it on a rack in the fridge for only aout 36 hours. I let it sit at room temp, kosher salted and peppered, for an hour and fifteen minutes.

My oven hadn't seemed up to temp the few days prior, so I used two oven thermometers (one the probe-on-a-wire type so the oven need not be opened to read it) to acheive 200 degrees; this happened on the oven setting of 220. I put the roast on a rack over a baking sheet and put it in, taping the door closed with masking tape to discourage curiosity looks, which really brings down the oven temp and messes up the timing. My thermometer maintained readings of 196-202 throughout the cooking.

I removed the roast from the oven to check internal temp after 3 hours - don't remember what it was, but it wasn't done yet. After 4 hours and 5 minutes, it hit 119.5 degrees - bingo!

I tented it with foil and kept it on the kitchen counter near the oven. It stood for 30-40 minutes, then it went back into the 500-degree oven for six minutes.

Wow. So glad there was a deep juice channel in the carving board! That was the juiciest roast I have ever seen! My mom, who eats her beef done to shoe-leather, had to shriek, "blood!!" - her slice went into the warm iron skillet that I had waiting - sigh.

Success. Yummy. Thanks to you and Kenji for all of your research and knowledge.

Now all that's left is to make stock from the scraps and bones so that it can be frozen and used for next year's jus.

[fourunder]

Nice job....and kudos for the smarts and creativity to ensure a constant temperature by adding the oven thermometer and taping the door shut, as not to let any heat escape. I have always maintained the oven thermometer is more important than the digital probe thermometer often mentioned as the most import tool for a proper oven roast.

With regards to Kenji's method....my approach first started back in 2009/10 with his Perfect Prime Rib Approach, which recommended a 30 minute rest. I achieved an excellent roast, but I experienced more bleeding than preferred. Through research and disruptions and delays in serving since that initial try....by accident and by design, longer resting periods occurred and it was easily notable how much better the texture and tenderness of each roast became with the long resting periods of 60 minutes plus. After a year of trials and experiments with different cuts of beef...I found the most important steps necessary for a truly great result was time....first for allowing the low and slow process to complete, then the longer resting period to allow the meats to work their magic to further tenderize.

In the same time as I was posting my results here on Chowhound..In Kenji's recommendations for resting time in his original posts, he cites clearly that 30 minutes was the BEST number to allow the roast to rest before the high heat blast.....Since then he has changed his tune to say a 60 or 90 minute rest is preferable. Coincidence? :0)

In the end, my thoughts on your most recent experience and 30-40 minute rest is the culprit for your bleeding issue. The longer rest of 2 hours or more seem to make that concern a non issue. if you look at the pictures throughout this thread posted by me and or others....you'll see similar results to my findings.....minimal bleeding.

Again, great job and thanks for sharing.

PS....sorry to hear about Mom...sound eerily similar to my experiences at every Holiday with my SIL

: 0 )

[sandylc]

You lasered your way straight to the only flaw in my process! I had wanted to time things for longer stand time, but goofed it up. It's like planning a NASA operation to time the oven temps and also let the rolls rise, find broiler time to brulee the rice pudding, etc., all while making sure guests get out of the door in time to drive home so they can be at work early the next morning....you get the pic.

I will try to discipline myself to write good notes for next year!

[busymumsy]

Thanks for your guidance,

I took the rib out about 3 hours before cooking to come toward room temperature.

Did the 450F blast for 20 minutes then turned the oven down to 225 F

Based on your advice I planned for 3-4 hours of cooking time (12.25# boneless) and took the meat out at 3.5 hours. It was at 115F

We rested the roast just over an hour and it went to 120F. My family likes it rare, in asking after, each person said they would be okay with it going another 5 degrees if we had company and needed to be polite, but they were very happy with it the way it was, especially since that means the leftovers can be warmed this AM without going grey.

I loved the mellow 1 hour rest whilst I cooked all the sides!

[monavano]

Just to be clear, when you say rest before the final blast, is this in a warm temp oven, or tented with foil, before the final blast?

[fourunder]

You have the option of doing either, or using either method. If you need the oven for sides, then you wrap foil over the roasting pan tightly or loosely, depending on the size of your roast....I prefer loosely myself....but for smaller roast, I cover with a large stainless steel bowl and a large bath towel. The mass of the meat will create a carryover increase anywhere from 5-10*. I like to finish at least two hours in advance of serving time, so the issues of needing the oven for sides is not a concern for me....so I just hold in a warm oven @ 140* for up to 4 hours.. ...less mess to clean up.

You can easily finish sides during the holding phase, especially if the roast is outside the oven, but if you do rest the roast in the oven, simply finish your high heat blast and finish your side afterwards. As indicated by TomMN in this thread, his roast hit temperature 3.5 hours before dinner service and he rested it the entire time before he finished the blast.... and then held for an additional 30 minutes while finishing his sides.

Good luck and I'll check back in if you require some more clarification.....I home for the day.

[monavano]

Thank you for your guidance. So helpful!
I made a small-ish prime rib roast last Sat. for just DH and me and although I used a sort of hybrid high->low/close oven for 2 hours and don't peak method, it came out pretty good.
If I decide to up the ante and serve (a bigger and higher quality=$$$$) prime ribs to guests, I know my technique has to be honed and solid, so this helps a great deal.
What I'm really loving is the time that I have to prep sides as the roast rests before final blasting. I have 2 ovens, so I have some room to groove!

[fourunder]

Thank you for the kind words......I'll bet that once you have enjoyed your roast today....you'll find that this was a very good method to prepare the Prime Rib......I'll go on further to say in the end, you'll come to realize the entire process was actually very easy and not difficult at all.....You do not need any experience to follow this recipe or process.....all you need is time and patience.

One final note.....this method works equally as well on veal, pork, lamb, turkey and inexpensive beef cuts....so you can practice on the latter.

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/880991

[fourunder]

Nice to hear you had a successful result! Great job and thanks you for sharing your details and story.

[mirage]

I want to add my thanks to fourunder to the chorus: Thank you! We followed your wonderfully instructive directions this year and will not go back to our old (previously thought to be fabulous) method.

Our rib roast was perfectly uniformly colored throughout with virtually not bleeding. Amazing.

We did let it rest again, after the final heat blast, so we could cook the Yorkshire Pudding, with no negative repercussions that we could see.

With such an expensive piece of meat it can be nerve-wracking to try a new way of cooking it. Thank you for holding our collective hands through this process.

[fourunder]

Nice job and great to hear you had an enjoyable result with the low and slow process......another one for the win column and the home team!

[Katie808]

Hi, Fourunder:

Thank you so much for posting and for your responses to everyone else here... your discussion and explanations are awesome, helpful, and an inspiration!

Last night, Christmas Eve 2012, my TWO 18-pound Prime Rib (bone-in) racks were fabulous and much acclaimed because of the information I found in your post -- THANK YOU !!!

YOU ARE SO RIGHT -- THE LOW AND SLOW APPROACH WORKS!

Last Christmas (year 2011) I did an 8-pounder (for 6 adults and several children) with great success; as it was my 1st attempt to roast a Prime Rib, I followed instructions I found at "cooking for engineers" dot-com:

http://www.cookingforengineers.com/re...

The engineers at that site, over a span of years, have meticulously timed, analyzed, and reported on their Prime Rib experiments; in particular, a site "guest" named "Eric", on December 26, 2005 (go to the link above and scroll down to find the guest-submittal), suggested that a heat blast, followed by 23.1 minutes per pound at 250-degress was his average roasting time for a medium-rare 7-pound standing rib roast... It did work for me...

This year, for a much larger Christmas Eve party (22 adults, 16 children), I got ambitious & thought to do TWO 18-pounders; we paid nearly $ 400 for the 2 racks (from Costco) and as my roast would be the feature of our holiday meal, in addition to the fact that we made a considerable investment in the cost of the meat, on the eve-of-the-eve, I started losing confidence on whether I could actually roast my racks with success.

I realized I was facing several challenges:

First, my oven is electric, 10-years old, and I could only surmise that it works good because I've never had trouble with it; reaching the correct heat, maintaining the heat, etc., were variables I wasn't sure of...

Second, the two meat-probe thermometers I'd purchased for this event, to my disappointment and dismay, would be useless because the set-point indicator arrow on the dial-face would only display upwards from 130-degrees Fahrenheit (last year I had a better probe and pulled my 8-pounder from the oven at 125-degrees); with no time to run out to purchase better thermometer probes, I was going to have to wing it...

Lastly, I'd overestimated the size of my oven: when I selected my two 18-pound Prime Rib racks at Costco, I thought I'd set them each in a roasting pan and place them side-by-side; however, when I got home and tested the placement of the roasts in my oven I discovered that my oven was too narrow and lacked depth for double side-by-side roasting; my oven also lacked height for stacking one rack above the other...

Thank goodness I found this site, your post, and the discussion!!!

Here is how I did it, in case this may help anyone else crazy enough to roast TWO 18-pounders simultaneously...

1. TWO 18-pound Prime Rib standing roasts (bone in).

2. Two large "full size aluminum" (disposable) "steam table" catering pans (20" x 12" x 3").

3. Two medium "half size aluminum" (disposable) "steam table" catering pans (12" x 10" x 2").

4. Butcher Twine.

5. Kosher Salt and Cracked Pepper (shakers wrapped in paper towels and rubber-banded for easy clean-up

)

6. "Heavy duty" aluminum foil.

INSTRUCTIONS:

3 HOURS PRIOR TO ROASTING: remove the Prime Rib roasts from the refrigerator; set them out somewhere safe so they may warm to room-temperature.

30-MINUTES PRIOR TO ROASTING: PREPARE THE ROASTING PANS

PREHEAT THE OVEN TO 450-DEGREES.

PLACE AN OVEN RACK IN THE LOWEST POSSIBLE POSITION INSIDE THE OVEN (– you want to be roasting as close to the heating element as possible).

stack the two medium “half size aluminum” pans one on top of the other so that they are nested together; fold the pans into a triangular-shaped cylinder -- it will serve as a prop on which the ribs will rest for maximum use of oven space and so that heat may circulate around the Prime Rib racks while roasting;

stack the two large “full size aluminum” pans one on top of the other so that they are nested together; the two pans together will provided stability for the weight of the roasts;

cut 4 lengths of butcher twine – each piece long enough to tie the rib racks to the prop;

set the prop in the pan, on top of the twine;

unwrap the roasts – generously salt and pepper the roasts;

place the roasts in the pan on top of the twine and the prop, positioning the roasts so that the smaller ends of the ribs are standing in the bottom of the pan;

Cut a long length of Butcher Twine and tie up the circumference of the Prime Rib racks so they will remain standing and leaning against the prop while roasting.

Secure and tie the four shorter lengths of Butcher Twine to additionally secure the Prime Rib racks against the prop.

Place the tied Prime Rib in the preheated oven; set a kitchen timer for 20 minutes – heat blast them (the fats will pop and sizzle – the beginnings of a nice outer crust).!

At the conclusion of the 20-minutes of heat-blasting, turn down the oven to 250-degrees – do not open the oven door !!!

Leave the Prime Rib in the oven, undisturbed, for the entire roasting time: calculate 23 minutes per pound (i.e., each of my racks was 18 pounds; 18 pounds multiplied by 23 minutes per pound equals 414 minutes = 6 hours 54 minutes).

At the conclusion of the calculated time, pull the pan from the oven (being careful to not spill the drippings (about 2 cups of liquid – mostly fat).

Set the roast somewhere safe, cover it with foil, loosely crimping the foil around the edges of the pan, and allow it to rest for 2 hours.

At carving, the meat will be uniformly pink throughout the entire rack, there will not be any graying, the meat will be fork-tender, and you will not have any bleeding at plate-ing !!!

Merry Christmas, 2012 !!!

[fourunder]

Wow! ! ! Thanks for the excellent detailed response and I am happy for your success......You have even taught me a few things which I may not have figured out myself....namely propping up and tying the roast to stand tall and together for consistent roasting. I love it when i can learn from the experiences of others as well.

Like I mentioned to TomMN, I am humbled and honored you found you could trust my comments and have the confidence in my process to prepare your expensive roasts and be a small part in your holiday feast. My best Christmas presents this year are hearing stories like yours and others, who have come to embrace the low and slow process.....ultimately making more enjoyable Holiday experiences for years to come for all.

Happy Holidays and you did a great job! ! !

[busymumsy]

Hi:

This is a great discussion, I am a little overwhelmed by all the information. I am going to try the low & slow method Christmas Day on a 12.25# boneless Costco Prime Rib.

We like it rare, so I am thinking to take it out between 110-115F, but can you help me figure out the best way- 150-200-225-250F and then how long to plan for the actual cooking time. I will try for the 1 hour rest and do the sides then.

I have a convection oven, but I am thinking there is no need to speed things up with that given the focus on low & slow.

[fourunder]

Good morning,

At this point, the best temperature setting is arguable at best. There are some variables to consider for each individual roast and home kitchen, but nothing that should cause any concerns or worries. The one detail that I have question about is the size or thickness of the roast at the the thickest point in the middle. This is also where you would insert the probe thermometer is one is being used. If you do get a chance to check back in, you should also indicate what time you plan on serving dinner, or the roast specifically.

For my Roasts today, I have just placed them into the oven at 9:30AM, planning for a 3-3:30PM service. One roast is 7.25 pounds and the other is 10.5 pounds. Presently, I have set the oven at 450* for 20 minutes to brown the roasts. I then plan on dropping the temperature setting to 200* for the duration until the roast hit 122*. I expect the smaller roast to do so between 3.5 - 4.0...the larger roast to do so between 4.0 - 5.0 hours. With a two hour rest, I figure the time the process will be completed will be sometime around 3:30 PM...., or six hours total.

Without knowing your specific plans, it's a little difficult to determine which temperature is best for you to select...but my preference to roast meat is between 200-225 for overall results and convenience. If time is a concern, 250* will also provide a good result...but It's not my preferred choice temperature to roast at. Please note, that although I did include a two hour rest for my roasts as my best recommendation, the minimum resting period is 60 minutes before the roast is placed back into the oven for a high heat blast to bring the meat back up to a more pleasant serving temperature.

You have mentioned that the process seems overwhelming, but really, all you are doing is the following.

* Taking the roast out of the refrigerator for at least an hour before roasting
* Seasoning your roast if you have not already done so
* Preheating your oven to 450*
* Place your roast into the oven
* Brown your roast for 15-20 minutes at 450*
* Reduce the temperature to 200-225*
* Roast until it hits your target temperature
* Drop the temperature setting to warm or 140*
* Hold your roast for 60-120 minutes
* 10 minutes before serving, give your roast a 8-10 minute high heat blast
* Remove and slice.

I suspect the roasting time and resting period should take you about 4 hours, plus or minus 30 minutes....but to be safe, I would allow a 5 hour window. If your roast hits the target temperature sooner, all you do is hold the roast a little longer, which I believe is a good thing.

I do not recommend using the convection feature, and your instincts are correct, as the roast will cook faster and not something that low and slow process is about and trying to achieve... the longer roasting time is what is necessary to tenderize the meat and keep it moist.

[Deadeye]

Sorry about not having enough details, I did get it in the oven, I am on Central time, so it is about 11:30 now. It has been in about 2 hours at 200 and is up to 57 degrees. I want to get the roast to something just below medium, I was thinking approximately 128 (is that the right temp??) I want to carve in approx 6.5 hours. I am going to kick it up to 225. Thanks again for your help.

[fourunder]

Two hours in and only up to 57 seems low. I would definitely recommend you increase to the 225 setting. I think you could comfortably go somewhere between 128-132....expecting a 5-7* increase in temperature for carryover effect during the holding phase. You will be fine as far as time goes. You have plenty of time.

If the roast hits it's mark sooner, leave in the oven at 140* before the high heat blast at the end....or covered well, as not to let too much heat to escape or be cooled by a draft.

[Deadeye]

Thanks for your help, have a great Christmas. It is at 70 now, so seems to be moving now.

[Deadeye]

The roast got to 132 at 5pm, let it rest an hour and then hit it with high temp to warm/brown, It came out great, pink throughout.

Thanks for all your help!

[fourunder]

Nice job and glad to hear it worked out well for you.....btw, the roast looks fantastic and better than the way mine turned out!

[Deadeye]

OK, so here is the situation, I have a 17.6 pound - 6 bone roast, it is at 38 degrees and on the counter (I know I should have taken it out earlier, but the was a long night...). It is 9am, and I want to serve at 6pm. I want to cook low and slow, followed by the resting/500degree browning, but do I still have time to cook at 200 degrees?

[fourunder]

You do not mention the target temperature you are shooting for, but It's approaching noon and I'm sorry I did not see this sooner....however if the roast is not already in the oven by now, get it in there immediately and you should be fine. Just to be safe, I would recommend you consider roasting at the higher temperature of 225*. Given the option of choosing between 200* and a one hour rest....or 225*, finishing sooner and a two hour rest....I would prefer and choose the latter, as I believe the longer resting period is crucial to the best final results of tender and moist beef, with minimal bleeding.

If you subscribe to the seriouseats.com cooking method, he believes there is not any difference in cooking time for a three rib roast or a six rib roast, and can finish in a little over 3 hours @ 200*....but My experience tells me the larger roasts take a little longer. I also believe he chooses the lower end of the temperature scale charts for his findings, but I find an additional 4-5 degrees is generally more preferred by the guests eating dinner.....i.e., his Medium-Rare is more like the high side of Rare. I enjoy meat as he represents, but when I first tried his recommendations back from 2010, all the family and friends thought it was a tad undercooked.

Without knowing further details of your roast or kitchen and considering variables that might exist...I suspect the roast would take about 4-5 hours to hit your target temperature before beginning the holdover phase. I would recommend you check at 3.5 hours to see how the roast is progressing. At this point, you can expect a minimum of 5* increase per hour to give you an idea of how much longer the roast will take to finish.

[tacosandbeer]

I just want to share my first low and low experience, with great appreciation for all those who contributed to this thread and convinced me to give it a try. We literally just finished putting the leftovers away!

DH asked for a rib roast, so I got a 2.1kg, 2 bone roast (it's just us and the Chowpup, who isn't a huge meat-eater yet.)

I am using a convection oven that I am still getting used to.

What I did:
Pulled the roast from the fridge for a 2 hr room temp warm-up.
Did a simple rub of kosher salt, cracked black pepper, a little dried rosemary and just enough olive oil to hold it together.
Preheated oven to 100C/212F (with fan).
Got distracted by Chowpup and forgot about initial high-heat blast.
Roast went in on a shallow rimmed baking sheet.
I don't have a probe thermometer, so I kept a close eye on it with my digital instant.
At 2hr 50 min, internal temp was 121 - I pulled the roast at this point, wrapped it in foil and covered it with a couple dish towels.
Roast got close to an hour rest while the oven temp came up and the potatoes cooked.
Uncovered roast and popped it back in to the oven at 220C with fan (with the Yorkshires) for 15 min, final internal temp 131.

I am now a convert to low and slow!! This was by far the most tender rib roast I've ever done. I did experience more loss of juices with slicing than I expected, but it was still moist. With the exception of the outer edges, the entire roast was a gorgeously uniform medium rare, leaning towards medium.

What I want to try: Not using the convection, or lowering the temp even more when using the convection setting. Need to remember the initial high-heat blast. Need to invest in a probe thermometer. Will pull at a lower temp next time before resting. Will probably not do such a long, high-heat blast after the rest. (We were not bothered by getting a crust or a browned exterior. I'd sacrifice those for a more-rare result.) And lastly, I want to try this with a bigger cut, when I have more people who will enjoy it. (I am currently in the UK, and most of the people we know won't eat beef if it's still pink. So sad.)

Again, thanks to everyone for posting your exeriences, mostly fourunder. I couldn't (and wouldn't) have tried it without you.

[fourunder]

tacosandbeer,

Nice job and thanks for the kind words.

Congratulations on what I would deem as an exceptional result for a first time attempt....Would you agree that it was actually a pretty easy process in the end and next time there is no need, or worries to be intimidated with the low and slow method? BTW...you can also do this with lamb, pork and turkey as well.....but especially with other cheaper and inexpensive beef cuts.

Points to note...

* for a small roast like yours, I find searing on the stove is easier

* Convection feature is not necessary, and it will cook the roast faster..... the concept of low and slow is not to rush the roast in any way to give it time to mimic the dry aging process and naturally tenderize the beef with it's own enzymes over a longer period of time.

* I suspect the 15 minutes high heat blast at the end was the culprit for the excessive bleeding you experienced. The final step of the high heat blast is not to heat the meat to cook, only to warm it up to a more pleasant serving temperature if the meat has cooled. Bringing the roast to a higher temperature forces the juices out of the meat. To correct, or eliminate that concern for your next roast, a longer resting period if possible and a shorter high heat blast of only five minutes for smaller roasts like yours.....Larger roasts you can increase the minutes according to relation to size ....or in other words, a couple of more minutes for each additional bone.

Finally, have a look at the following thread where I did a comparison experiment with Cross Rib/Shoulder Roasts and Chuck Roasts......roasted to Medium-Rare with the results in pictures. You can practice on them and use your gained experience on your next Holiday Roast.

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/880991

[tacosandbeer]

Thanks so much for the troubleshooting. I am new to convection (and not loving it) and i suspected it was the issue.
I do not have a strong enough exhaust fan to make stove-top searing worth it - DH wonders what you'd think of a quick few min on a very hot gas grill?

As for your first question - we both agreed after dinner, over a glass of really nice wine, that although the start-to-finish process was lengthy, it's almost completely hands-off, stress-free and well worth it. We are never going back to the hot side!! Thanks!!

BTW - I am in charge of the 5.8kg turkey crown for dinner tomorrow, and it's getting done nice and low now! Thanks!

[fourunder]

DH wonders what you'd think of a quick few min on a very hot gas grill?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You can sear at both the beginning and end for this step on your outdoor gas grill.

As for the turkey.....my conversions may be a tad off, but for 12-14 pounds, or approximately 6KG, I find 225 -275*F is best and I find my self roasting at 275*F/135*C most of the time for time and convenience. Larger than 6KG, and the lower 225/107 is preferred.

For Brown Skin, browning in the beginning and end is also recommended. If after you have turkey roasted low and slow you do not find the white meat is superior for moisture and tenderness...I would be totally shocked.

[tacosandbeer]

Thanks for that, I will let you know how it goes! Have a wonderful day tomorrow, rejoincing in the knowledge that people all over the world are eating better because of your efforts!!

[fourunder]

Thanks for the well wishes......tomorrow is Prime Rib Roast....but in a few hours I'm off to my best bud's house for his family's traditional Christmas Eve *Feast of the Seven Fishes* dinner.

[busymumsy]

[quote] * Your brown the roast in the oven for 15-20 minutes

* You reduce the oven temperature to your preferred choice

* You wait until it hits your target temperature

^ You shut the oven off and hold the roast inside or outside the oven...whichever works best for you for 60-120 minutes. If it is outside the oven, then make sure you cover it tightly with foil, not just tented. If you finish your sides early, put the roast in the oven at 200-225 to keep warm until the high heat blast.

* You give it a high heat blast for 8-10 minutes @ 450*[/quote}

Thanks for a quick answer!

So, you are saying you both hit it with high heat at the beginning and also at the end?

[fourunder]

The short answer is *Yes*, that's correct, brown, or sear first....then again after the holding/resting period. I neglected to include....

* Preheat your oven for 15 minutes @ 450*

In the past, I never used to brown in the beginning for a large roast, but I always did so with a small roast on the stove top. I have since changed based on a couple of reasons. First, without browning, the outer skin resulted in a *Jerky* like texture that was not anticipated or enjoyed.. By browning or searing in the beginning, it corrected that issue. Second, there used to be a Chowhound member here, whose opinion I valued and respected. He informed me the The National Beef Council recommended that the initial browning or searing phase was important to kill off any bacteria on the surface of the roast.....hence I now always follow that advice....and pass that detail onto others.

[busymumsy]

Hi:

This is a great discussion, I am a little overwhelmed by all the information. I am going to try the low & slow method Christmas Day on a 12.25# boneless Costco Prime Rib.

We like it rare, so I am thinking to take it out between 110-115F, but can you help me figure out the best way- 150-200-225-250F and then how long to plan for the actual cooking time. I will try for the 1 hour rest and do the sides then. I would like to avoid the bloody mess you get sometimes so am pleased to hear about the 1 hour rest.

I am thinking it makes sense to do the final 6-10 minute blast. If I am interpreting everything I have read, it sounds like the roast should stay warm enough if insulated not to need to be reheated and should not over cook?

I have a convection oven, but I am thinking there is no need to speed things up with that given the focus on low & slow.

[fourunder]

Although most of the information goes into some detail...the process is actually very easy.

* You remove the roast from refrigeration

* Your brown the roast in the oven for 15-20 minutes

* You reduce the oven temperature to your preferred choice

* You wait until it hits your target temperature

^ You shut the oven off and hold the roast inside or outside the oven...whichever works best for you for 60-120 minutes. If it is outside the oven, then make sure you cover it tightly with foil, not just tented. If you finish your sides early, put the roast in the oven at 200-225 to keep warm until the high heat blast.

* You give it a high heat blast for 8-10 minutes @ 450*

* No second rest is necessary or needed. You can slice immediately.

Here are two threads that will guide you further

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/675987

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/832821

Depending on how much time you have available to roast, i suggest 200-225*....3.0-4.0 hours roasting time and holding time of one hour. Since you are shooting for Rare temperature, I do not think bleeding will be as much of a concern as a roast cooked to a higher temperature.....however, I still believe most will enjoy A Rare roast cooked to the higher end of the Rare Meat Temperature Scale.....so I would recommend roasting to 115*, expecting the carryover effect to rise an additional 5* to bring the final temperature to 120*. The high heat blast will not cook up the roast....only bring it up to a more pleasant serving temperature, i.e., warm as opposed to cool.

For this year's Christmas Day Roast, I plan on using 200-210* in my brother's Viking Stove, which does have the convection feature, but I do not plan on using it other than the last hour of expected roasting time...or as dictated by the Digital Probe Thermometer. I also plan on holding for 2 hours.

With regards to roasting at under 200*...I would only do so if you have done so in the past and trust that your oven can maintain a constant temperature.....In general, I would not trust a gas oven, but I would have no problems with an electric oven, as they can maintain a low temperature without fear of a flame out.

[John E.]

Many years ago (20?) before I was too adept in the kitchen but already had an interest in cooking, my father committed a heinous act on a prime rib roast for our Christmas dinner. I was not paying too much attention to what was happening with the meal that day. My mother cooked everything except for the beef which my father did on the grill, just as he usually did whether it was turkey, ham, or goose. This was the first time in a long time that he sprung for the expensive prime rib. Anyway, he took it off the grill when the thermometer said 140. He thought that meant it was going to be rare and he was worried about my SIL, who liked her meat well-done. She certainly got her wish.

[fourunder]

The not so good ...old days. Thankfully the temperature charts have been adjusted over the years to reflect lower ranges for cooked meat specifications...

Thanks for sharing.

[monavano]

I'd like to roast a prime rib roast using the high oven (500-550) then turn off and leave door closed for 2-hour method.
Even if I use the (new convection) oven on thermal cooking, when I turn it off, the fan will start and it will cool the oven. My old oven didn't do this.
My question is, can I try starting at 550, then finish at the oven's lowest temp?

[fourunder]

There are a few variables that must be considered before a true proper answer could be suggested or recommended.....namely, the size of your roast, the temperature, or variety of temperatures that you are choosing for the finished results and the length of time you have determined to start your roast off at the high heat temperature.

With that said, if you are looking to roast in a shorter time frame, I like the idea of maintaining and controlling a constant temperature throughout the cooking process after your intial high heat step. I would not trust the main event of the even to the accident of someone opening the oven door and letting the oven to cool down....so I would agree with the thought to set the thermostat at a lower temperature.....somewhere between 140-200* to finish the roast.

[TomMN]

First of all, fourunder, thank you for all the great advice you have given here. It is greatly appreciated. I used your low and slow method on a boneless 6.5lb rib roast and the results were phenomenal.
I would like to ask you a question, if I could: I bought a 20lb standing rib roast from Costco which I'll be cooking Christmas Eve. I plan on placing the room-temperature roast into a 225 oven. (Haven't decided if I will pull at 118 or at 122-125 as you mentioned above).
Although I'll be using the temperature to determine when to pull the roast, how long do you think it will take to cook this beast? I've read different "rules of thumb" to estimate this, but many times these rules that I have read are for roasts cooked with different methods (high heat blast at first, etc.).
Thanks for the help.

[fourunder]

First, thank you for the kind words and it is greatly appreciated. It's also nice to hear you have achieved satisfactory results and have enjoyed my thoughts for low and slow roasting.

Many will cite the importance of a digital temperature probe to monitor the results, but I would say more importantly is the calibration of your oven with an actual oven thermometer. I will assume since your past experience has been positive, the accuracy of your oven is not a concern. While weight is also a factor, there comes a point where it will not be the determining factor in calculating the duration of roasting time. The greatest concern for me with your particular query has to do with the shape of the roast and the size of the bones. A larger, thicker eye and deckle fat cap will take longer to roast ...than a thinner one, e.g., 6 inches as opposed to 4.5 inches in the center mass of the roast.

My past experience leans more to 25-30 minutes per pound in my 40 year old home oven. When cooking in my brother's Viking Stove, the time could be dropped to 20-25 minute per pound, especially if the convection feature is utilized.

With that said, I think you should start checking around the 3.5-4.0 hour mark to see how the roast is progressing. You can expect a 5 degree increase every hour at that point. In the past, I've roasted smaller full 7 - Rib Roasts in as little as 4.0 hours to hit the 120is mark....but as long as 7 hours to do so as well. I suspect your roast will take at least 4.0-5.0 hours at minimum to hit your mark. With a two hour rest, you should give yourself at minimum an 8 hour window for roasting time and holding period. Should your roast hit it's mark sooner, don't worry....it's not a problem and you can hold your roast easily for up to 4 hours at 140* on the lowest warm setting. If for some reason your roast is lagging in upward temperature movement, you can increase to 250-275* without worry of any negative effects to the tenderness of the meat. I would suggest this measure only during the last hour of expected roasting time.

Whenever I roasted a Full 7-Rib ...I always took the roast out of refrigeration the night before I retired for the evening to come closer to room temperature, or around 60*

Below are some pictures of two roasts I purchased for Christmas Day 2012...One a Four Rib, 10.5 pounder with a larger eye and bigger bones. The other is a Three Rib, 7.25 pounder with a smaller eye ....I have included the pictures so you could understand exactly what I mean for variables concerning Thicker, larger bones...as opposed to Thinner, smaller bones.....and expected cooking time for Prime Rib Roasts.

[TomMN]

Thank you so much for sharing your expertise with me and everyone here - such an incredible gift to us all and an incredible resource for all us wanna- be cooks.
I'm using a newer Wolf oven that has convection capabilities although I don't think I'll use convection as I'm not in a big hurry.
I'm going to try to post a picture of each end. If the pictures work out: would you consider this a thicker or thinner roast?

Note: for some reason, I'm having trouble posting the pictures from this iPad. Working on it...

[TomMN]

See if this works

[TomMN]

I'm a poster child for electronic ineptitude ... see if this works better.

[fourunder]

That's a good looking piece of beef you have selected. I would consider that flatter, rather than rounder myself. I would still suggest you check your roast around the 3.5 hour mark, but I suspect your roast will take closer to 4 hours and up to 5.0 hours depending on which end of the scale you ultimately decide on at 225*. Place the thermometer between ribs 9-10, and if you do not like to see blood near the bone, the probe closer to the bone, rather than to the center of the eye, as it takes a little longer to cook the meat near the bone. i would figure around a total roasting and holing period to be 7-8 hours minimum.....again, if it hits temperature sooner, the longer resting period is a good thing in my views.

Your newer oven should be more efficient with better insulation, so I would expect 20-25 minutes per pound as a starting point. You will see some advice like from seriouseats.com that will say the roast will finish at 3 hours, but I find that his idea of Rare and Medium-Rare tend to be on the low side for most tastes.

[TomMN]

I thought I'd share my results in the hope that it might help others. Very apt that this thread is called "disasters and success" because I thought I was heading for both ends of the scale.
As a recent disciple of prime-rib guru Fourunder, my plan was to follow his teachings religiously.
My 20 lb standing rib roast came out of the refrigerator and on to the counter when I went to bed late on the 23rd. Based on my conversation with the guru here, I was planning on an 8 hour total preparation time.
I had cut the bones off of the roast, seasoned with salt and pepper, and then tied them back on. Then seasoned the roast with only Kosher salt and cracked black pepper (that I had fun cracking manually - to some degree, but not 100% success).
The internal temperature probe read 53° when I popped the roast into the oven that had been pre-heated to 450°
20 minutes later I turned the temperature down to 225° (Internal temp had risen 1 degree to 54°.
This is when things took a turn toward ... more interesting.
2 hours passed and my internal temp was reading 92°. This seemed much too high for me. I panicked. Just a little.
I inserted a second temperature probe to see if I was getting a good reading. (I was) I also put an ambient temperature probe in the oven to make sure the oven was performing as desired. (It was).
With two probes now inserted and one more in the oven, I turned the temperature down to 200° for the roast that was starting to look more like an CICU patient.
After 3 hours and 26 minutes, both my probes read 123°. Even though this was HOURS before dinner, the words of our Guru rang in my head and out of the oven came the roast. I wrapped tightly in foil and then wrapped in a blanket and put it on the counter.
In the 13 minutes it took me to wrap the roast, the temp. rose to 126-128° (Two probes).
20 minutes of rest later the temp was at 129-132°
1 hour of rest later the temp was at 131-134°
1.5 hours later the temp was 131-134°
THREE HOURS later, the temp was 130-132°
Dinner was approaching and it was time for a 20-minute warm up at 250°.
I took that roast out and tented it with foil while the oven warmed to 450°, then it was back in for 15 minutes.
After it came out, due to issues beyond my control (involving potatoes, etc.) we tented for another half hour before carving.
All-in-all, we had cooked for 3:26 and between resting/warming/searing we had rested for a total of 4:09.
The results? Uniform pink color throughout the roast. A little bleeding, but tender, tender, tender delicious prime rib.
I'll try to post the photographic evidence below.
Fourunder, you're the master! I only hope your roasts today turn out as good as mine last night - but of course they will!
My big extended family raved about the beef and thanked me, but they were really thanking you!
I can't see myself using any other method for rib roasts ever again.

[fourunder]

TomMN,

Wow....this is great news to hear and thanks for the very detailed and informative post, especially for noting the distractions during preparations and noting that you had an unanticipated and extended resting period to deal with, which ultimately had no negative effects on your final results.......it seems the student has passed the Master, grasshopper! Your efforts were rewarded and the pictures look fantastic.

The kind words are much appreciated ....but it's me who should thank you for placing the trust and confidence in my comments to prepare your Holiday meal for your family and friends....I am truly humbled and honored.

Thanks for sharing.

Happy Holidays and no more well done beef....only beef done well!

[fourunder]

Pictures....They did not upload at first attempt.

[Quig7557]

Some of the pictures look a little rare for some of my guest, what temp would you recommend for just a bit more medium/medium rare.

Or, if need be I may finish some more done ones one the stove in jus.

Great site amd excellent info, the few I have cooked were started at 450 for a hour, then shut the oven off for a while. I don't like the mystery and want more control/info as to how the rib is doing.

I also have a remote prob to keep me informed.

[fourunder]

Technically, there is a range of 10 degrees for each temperature on the temperature scale chart...or in other words, you can be on the low side or the high side of the scale to still be considered in the proper temperature range....

With the low and slow approach, you will not get much carryover heating....usually about 5-7 degrees at most. I normally pull @ 122-125*...with the carryover, it gets to about 130ish. Typically, the range for Medium-Rare is 125-135...or 130-140*, depending on which chart you subscribe to. The median is 130ish using bot charts. I suspect you prefer the high end of the scale for Medium-Rare or possibly, the low range for Medium doneness.......therefore, I would suggest you simply bring the roast to 128-132* degrees. Then you can begin the holding period either inside or outside the oven.....my preference is to hold the oven on the lowest warm setting of 140*

For the record, I do not like the idea of finishing a perfectly roasted piece of meat in jus....but I do realize some people cannot eat meat other than medium-well or well done....So in your case, my answer is to roast a little to the higher end of Medium-Rare, or low end of Medium, just to be clear.....but in the end, it's a better alternative than using the microwave..

[bcantrill]

Just had a huge success following your instructions, fourunder -- thank you! Two standing rib roasts: one 7.5, one 6.5 (three ribs each) for ~40 people as part of a sit-down meal. Brought them up to room temp, rubbed them down with ample salt and ground fresh pepper, and then in at 225* with a temp probe. Based on the numbers I had seen here, I was fully expecting 3.5 to 4.5 hours (or more) to hit fourunder's 118*, but to my shock, it as at 118* after a mere 3 hours! By the time I pulled it, that site was at 121*, with readings ranging up to 129*. I wrapped both roasts in tin foil (triply wrapped) and -- per fourunder's loving instructions -- moved them away from all drafts and covered them with a blanket. This was throwing off my plan a bit as it was 5p when this happened, but we did not intend to be eating beef until 8:30p. After some frantic reading here, I inferred (correctly, I guess?) that a longer rest period would do no harm -- so the two roasts rested for nearly 2.5 hours (on top of it all, dinner was running late). At the point that they went back in, an instant read was giving me 129*, which matches roughly what I expected the carry-over to be given that the temp was ~124* when I initially pulled it. Then it was 250* for 30 minutes and the 500* blast for another 8 or so. Interestingly, during the entire warm-up and blast, the probe never budged about 129* -- pretty clear that the center is not being warmed by that process! Anyway, pulled the roasts out with some apprehension that they would be either too rare or otherwise too cool -- but the beef was terrific. Biggest problem (such as it was) was that the beef had to wait on the potatoes and therefore was a tad cooler on the plate than I might have liked (we couldn't warm the plates, which would have made a difference there). Many, many people were saying that it was the best beef that they had ever had -- and I think that that might be true of me as well. I was terrified of screwing up dinner for 40 people, but thanks to fourunder's clear instructions and patient clarifications, it was a huge hit! Thank you, everyone -- and fourunder especially!

[fourunder]

Very glad to hear your success and thank you for sharing your thorough details....

I'm sure now, you have realized this method is very forgiving and in reality, quite easy if you have patience. You are actually the first person who has commented that they have taken the extra step of covering their roast with a blanket/towel, which I feel is very beneficial and necessary for the home cook who does not have access to the equipment a commercial kitchen has....which is a holding oven. In the future, if your roasts finish earlier than expected, you can drop the heat down to 140* and open the door and release the heat for 10 minutes, then close the oven door and hold easily for two hours(or longer). Essentially, this is what a commercial holding oven does. If you need the oven for sides, then repeat your method of wrapping with foil and insulating with the blanket.

With regards to target temperatures, I have found that at times the roast reaches the target sooner than expected like yours....but I never fret as long as I catch it by the 122-125* range, especially if the roast is 3+ ribs. . My observation is also that reaching a slightly higher temperature will cook the meat more evenly right up to the bone....but personally, I like the little bit of rareness I find once in a while and the reason why I pull at 118....In the end, it's all good....(See my post above on Jan.19th, which shows what I describe about the rare meat by the bone)

About warming plates....if the oven cannot be utilized for whatever reasons....I use a few other methods when preparing a meal:

1. Place plates directly onto a fry pan on low flame. If you have a large cover or stainless steel bowl, you can trap the heat for quicker results. This won't work for 40 plates, but does for 4 plates uncovered or 6-8 plates if you rotate them a bit.

2. You can use a any large roasting pan with cover for the above method.

3. Place plates directly over any pot with vegetables or potatoes, in place of the pot lid. This is the method I use most while preparing dinner at home. Please note that the bottom plate will have moisture on the underside, so be sure to wipe it dry before serving.

4. Give plates a 20-30 zap in the microwave will take the chill out as well.

Finally, based on your details...on similar size roasts, in the future you could increase the minutes during the blast phase. It won't affect the center, but will only increase the gray outer ring in color slightly.

Thanks again for sharing.

[Westy]

I cheated: Kreutz's market in TX does mail order. Amazing.

[Splendid Spatula]

Why phrase it as holding back from trying a particular method? If you have a method that works, then use it! I'm a fan of this one:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/30/mag...

Has worked perfectly several times now on 4-5 rib roasts.

[fourunder]

How would you know which method is better unless you try both first. The question was posed at the people who have had disasters, not successes. My contention is it is nearly impossible to over-cook meat with the low and slow approach.....thus limiting the possibility of a disaster. If you come to realize you have enjoyed your results for the better...isn't that enough reason to give it a try?

[The 1st and only KSyrahSyrah]

This is Kenji Alt's method, which I adhere to: http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/20... FWIW, Kenji went ot MIT, and does the "sciency" stuff about cooking.

[fourunder]

FWIW,

I first tried Kenji's method during the holidays of 2010 and it is excellent....but I have found that if you rest for at least 60 minutes, place back into the oven for the warm up phase @ 250 for 30 minutes and finish with a high heat blast @ 500 for 10 minutes....the results are even better. I tested Kenji's method on two roasts. My modification to his methods have been tested on over another half dozen. People eating his original method and my modified opined the longer resting improved the meat greatly without any meat bleeding, unlike Kenji's which had slight bleeding.

Originally, Kenji's Perfect Prime Rib called for a higher roasting temperature and only 30 minutes resting. The link you referenced is modified from the recipe from a couple of years ago. It should be mentioned that he has since modified his recommendation to hold the meat for up to 90 minutes from 30 and dropped his recommendation to 150* for roasting. I surmise Kenji has a nice new modern oven at his disposal for his tests...but he also notes that not all ovens can maintain a temperature of 200 or lower....especially if you have an older home oven. They just are not as insulated as well as the modern technology..

Last, Kenji method refers to roasts up to 12 pounds......full roasts are larger and he does not offer any adjustments for that.

[fourunder]

My most recent success.....

Here are the results of my most recent Prime Grade Prime Rib Roast...

* Pre-Cooked weight: 4 pounds / 2-Bones

* Sealed within a FoodSaver Bag for 26 days

* Air dried in the refrigerator for 2 additional days unseasoned

* Allowed to warm outside of the refrigerator for 4 hours

* Sea Salt and Fresh Cracked Black Pepper applied prior to placing in oven

* Seared prior to placing in the oven

* 200* Roasting Temperature

My normal preparations for Prime Rib Roast is initially roasting @ 450* for the first 15 minutes, then dropping down to 225* for the duration until reaching a target temperature of approximately 120*, followed by a 60 minutes resting period, then placed back into the oven for a warming phase of 20-30 minutes @ 250*, followed by a high heat blast for 10-12 minutes @ 500*.. Removed from oven, there is no second resting period.

Given the quality of the beef, and the small size of the roast, I decided to veer off my normal method and pan sear the roast first before placing in a pre-heated 450* oven for only 5 minutes , then dropping the oven temperature down to 200*.. I was shooting for a target temperature of 120* before pulling the roast out for the resting period and carryover cooking.

I was expecting the roast to take 3-3.5 hours to reach the target temperature of 120*, based on 50 minutes per pound…however the roast reached 120* in just over 2 hours time. Faced with a dilemma, i.e., a timing issue with the rest of dinner being prepared 3.5 hours later…I decided I did not want to pull the roast out of the oven and lose heat, so I decided to hold the roast in the oven at 140* for the 2 ¾ hours before I used the 30 minute warming phase @ 250* and 10 minute high heat blast @ 500*. During the first 30 minutes in the oven @ 140*, the carryover increase reached 125* (as expected) and stayed at that number for the first hour, then dropping 3 degrees each 45 minutes down to 119* before I began the warm up phase. During the 30 minutes in the warm up phase, the roast only increased another 2* total. The 10 minute blast increased the roast another 3* . At this point the digital thermometer registered 124*.

I removed the roast from the oven and covered it with a stainless steel bowl for only 5 minutes while I finished the side dishes. You can see the results of the first slice, or end cut is completely pink with only the outer crust showing any brown. The end result was meat on the high side of rare and low side of medium-rare doneness. PLEASE NOTE, on the carving board and on the plate, there is zero bleeding of any meat juices. The meat itself was very tender, without any hint of chew...but with pronounced concentration of beef and nutty flavor. I would definitely try this again as the results were excellent.

[Jerseygirl111]

Fourunder, why is your roast tied up? It looks like the bones are still attached, are they? If so, why tie?

Thanks!

[fourunder]

I love jerseygirls who pay attention to the details.....

The reason why I tied the roast is....in the first picture where the roast was removed from the refrigerator, you can see the dried outer layers of the roast and the stained fat from the liquid released from the meat while aging in the FoodSaver bag. After shaving the fat and dried meat, at the point where the eye and deckle meet over the bone. or where the french line would be....I got too close and there was a chance the meat between the deckle and eye could separate if the fat rendered away and could no longer hold the meat in place. Tying the roast kept that possibility from happening. As an unexpected and added benefit, the three indentations created by tying left three perfect guidelines to slice the roast into four equal one inch slices or portions.

Also, over the years when ordering large export ribs and boneless ribeyes for commercial kitchens.....the meat always came tied in string wraps to prevent the fat caps or deckles from separating while roasting. As a matter of habit, I always tie my home roasts as well to be safe.

[Jerseygirl111]

Good! Then I can ask another pesky question...if you are aging the meat in the foodsaver bag, it is sealed, no? Sealed=wet aged? Wouldn't you get better results dry aging, aka open to the cool blown air of the fridge fan? Or maybe not better, just different? Please enlighten me O'Master of the Meat!

[fourunder]

Yes, the bag is sealed and it is considered wet-aging.....this is probably the most common way meat is held in commercial kitchens. I have no degree in food science, so I cannot tell you exactly what is going on during the wet or dry age process....but as I understand it, in wet aging enzymes break down the meat without air exposure. With dry-aging, enzymes and bacteria work together to break down the meat. With wet aging, you do not trim off as much deteriorated meat and there is less shrinkage. so the yield is higher.

Given the choice of having a dry age or wet age steak.....dry age is definitely a better result and choice. While you can air dry a roast in your refrigerator for up to a week, to properly dry age at home you really need to dedicate a separate fridge and control the elements and temperature.. Here's a recent thread on the subject of dry-aging at home in a separate refrigerator

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/821368

[porker]

" I have no degree in food science" - ditto, me neither, but a few comments from the peanut gallery....

dry aging not only breaks down the meat, fostering tenderness, but removes moisture (shrinkage not due to trim). This lowering of moisture apparently raises the concentration of flavor.

"to properly dry age at home you really need to dedicate a separate fridge" A dedicated, separate fridge will certainly give you more control, and likely better consistency. I'm all for this, but you *can* age meat longer that a week in your fridge. I regularly dry-age rib roasts up to 28 days in mine.

Your pictures look fantastic!

[fourunder]

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate when I'm critiqued so I can lean from all.

: 0)

I realize you can dry-age in your regular fridge for as long as you want...but wouldn't you agree the repeated opening and closing of the door is not ideal? Also, most people are not willing to dedicate the space and odor from uncovered meat for extended periods or time...thus my point of view.

[peppermint_sky]

My close friend made a rib roast for the first time ever this Christmas. Although I have pretty extensive cooking experience in certain areas, I had never made a rib roast either and so we looked around for ideas together. We found and used this recipe from epicurious (below) where you chill/marinate the roast in a rosemary/thyme/bay rub for about 12 or 16 hours, then start the roast in a 450 oven for 20 minutes, and reduce the heat to 350 for another 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 hours. She served this to her family and said it was perfectly cooked, tender, delicious.

http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/foo...

[CindyJ]

I'm sure "low and slow" works, but it's not the only route to a perfectly cooked rib roast. My small, 2-rib, 4.5 pound standing rib roast (bone attached) came out perfectly medium rare. My never-fail formula:

1. Take the roast out of the fridge about an hour before roasting.
2. Preheat the oven to 500 degrees.
3. Place the roast in a large, shallow roasting pan, fat side up. Sprinkle with flour, rubbing it into the fat lightly. Season with salt & pepper.
4. Roast at 500 degrees for EXACTLY 5 minutes per pound (4.5 pounds = 22.5 minutes).
5. Turn the oven off. Do not open the oven door! Leave the roast in the oven until leave-in thermometer reads desired temp. I take it out at 126 degrees for medium rare. This takes approximately two hours in total.
PERFECTION!!!

[fourunder]

Thanks for sharing. Have you tried your method with a larger 4, 5, 6 or 7 Rib Roast?

[CindyJ]

I haven't, but according to the original source of this recipe http://www.foodmaven.com/diary/000001... this method is supposed to work well for roasts with 2-4 ribs, or 4-12 pounds.

[fourunder]

Thanks for the source...giving it a quick read though, it states that the center slices will be rare temperature....which is not in itself a bad thing.....just maybe not what someone is looking for in the highest yield of medium-rare cuts.

This year's Christmas Dinner was at my brother's house. He has not been convinced to use the low and slow approach for anything. He method this year was to roast at a temperature of 450*, then shut off the oven. He would not provide me with the details.....as I bust him every year for over-cooking the turkey and beef roasts. He made two First Cut Rib Roasts, one three bones, the other four bones. His results were more medium towards the ends and rare in the center. Resting the meat for 30 minutes, there was still more bleeding than with a lower temperature roast. ...however, it was still good and everyone enjoyed it.

[CindyJ]

I'd think the center slices will be at whatever level of "doneness" you want, if your meat thermometer is properly placed. I like mine medium-rare, so I set my thermometer to notify me when the temp. reaches 126 degrees. The original recipe calls for removing the roast from the oven when the oven is lukewarm. That's a bit less precise than using a meat thermometer.

[steve h.]

A decent (well marbled and at room temperature) standing rib roast with a respectable amount of fat should bask in a 325 degree oven until a 120-125 interior temperature is achieved. Let the 3+ rib roast rest for 20 minutes or so after the fact.

[beteez]

The recipe from BBQ 25 by Adam Perry Lang cannot be beat

[mkmccp]

I do an initial high temp 450 for 15 min then decrease temp to 325 for about 1 hour. did this for christmas eve on a 3 ribber and it was very good. Pink throughout, and a nice brown on the cap (my fave). one thing I did forget to do was to let it come to temp before putting into oven, for some reason I took it out of the fridge, seasoned and plopped it in. Could have been bad. but we got lucky

[oddcouple1]

My first prime rib came out amazing. It was boneless, about 6.75 lb, a really good amount of marbling and very well tied and shaped. I cut slits in it and stuffed garlic in the slits, rubbed it with rosemary, fresh ground pepper and horseradish overnight. Let it come to room temp, rubbed a little salt, and threw it in 450 oven for 20 minutes- amazing sear/crust! cranked it down to 325 for about an hour and 40 minutes, let it rest for 25, and it was so tender we hardly needed a knife. Rare in the center, nothing was much more than medium rare. I was really nervous about overcooking it, but, now I would not hesitate to do it again!

[Maximilien]

Cooked a 1.3kg piece of meat (with bone) at high temp (450-ish) on the oven gril.

I left it maybe 10-15 minutes too long, it was still pink inside but I wanted it more red-ish.

The difficulty I have with that type of roasting, is that I might do it once, maybe twice a year and never remember how it went the last time

Anyway, the meat was good quality and was totally enjoyed, the drippings were enough to make a small pan-sauce (nothing added).

BUT The good thing is that the smoke detector did not start!!! (good idea to clean the oven couple of days before).

[twyst]

Cooked mine sous-vide then gave it a quick sear on the grill right before serving. It came out perfect and I will be using this method from now on.

[casey30]

This is timely for me. I'm doing a 4 kg or 8.8 lb prime rib on Thursday, and I've always done the 325 or even 350 route, but I'd like to try low and slow.

I'll admit first off to still being in a turkey stupor, and would prefer not wade through all the threads on the subject - my head is spinning enough. (or still!)

Having said that I'd really like to give this a go, so with a 225 oven, is there a per pound time?

When it comes out, it rests for a time and then goes back in at 500 for 8 - 12 minutes, so why does it rest for that long and go back in?

Is there a lot of drippings for gravy?

Internal temp of about 128 - 130?

Is there a tried and true formula for this?

I'm kind of nervous about doing this, as it's for a once a year family dinner, but also a bit excited too!

[fourunder]

Read the following thread as it's pretty comprehensive with varying opinions and techniques.

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/466614

Provide some more specific details ,e.g.,

Boneless or Rib Roast

The temperature you are seeking to serve....or varying degrees of doneness and fellow posters can make suggestions....or answer the queries you mention above.

Look at my post above porker's for the pictures and pick which roast you would like to achieve for your finished roast.

[rasputina]

Never had a disaster with prime rib, and no we don't do low and slow. This years came out fabulous as usual. But I don't think we have ever had a disaster on the Big Green Egg.

[porker]

Low & Slow is romantic, rhymes, and is part of popular culture, whats not to like?
I realize buying a whole rib roast is somewhat of an investment and makes people somewhat nervous. The seemingly never-ending debate over various methods adds to the anxiety.

Carving an entire rib roast at the table is incredibly sexy (we once did a hanging leg of beef - that was cool), but I feel I can get a tastier end product.
Its this reason that I don't necessarily "embrace low and slow".

I really enjoy BBQ and grilling in general, so when doing prime rib, I do a mixed method approach: I sear in a very hot oven, let rest, carve, then grill over live maple charcoal.
The sear gives a delicious crust (cannot get this from low and slow), the grill gives incredible flavor. The grill also gives me more control over the doneness of each serving. This is useful as my table runs the gamut of rare to shoe leather (gotta love the mother-in-law...).

Granted, this is not a straightforward roast prep, but this is why I don't go the low&slow route. Actually, a few other steps are involved: I cut away the ribs, rub the roast and rack with Montreal steak spice, tie the ribs back onto the roast, wrap, and fridge overnight (a slight cure). Next day, it warms to room temp, then into a 550F oven for an hour, taken out and left to cool to room temp. I can proceed to grill or wrap and fridge until ready. I cut away the ribs and grill over live charcoal. I carve the boneless roast into portions (the center is raw/rare) and grill to desired doneness.
Serve the portion with a sliced off bone.

[fourunder]

Questions...

* When you sear in a hot oven, at what temperature and for how long?

* How long do you allow to rest before carving?

* Is there much difference from your slice and grill beef cut portion compared to an individual steak portion that has been rubbed and grilled over the same coals?

Thanks

[porker]

* 550F oven for an hour

* At least and hour. I have wrapped and fridged up to 2 days in advance. In this case, I'd let it come to room temp before grilling.
If I carved right out of the oven, it would bleed out.

* Night and day. The steak spice overnight cures the exterior. The sear gives a very tasty crust.

When I ran a restaurant in a previous life, I'd occasionally offer this prime rib as a special. It sold out EVERY time with the majority of sales done even before the special was offered (reserved, pre-sale).
Later on, cooks from nearby restos would ask "what is BBQed prime rib? We have more and more people asking for it." I'd smile and explain the method.

[fourunder]

Very nice....

Ideally, would you like to roast, cool and serve on the same day, or better to make a two day process.

thanks.

[porker]

Actually it would be a 3 day process:
day 1 - carve ribs, tie, spice rub, fridge.
day 2 - come to room temp, sear, return to room temp, fridge
day 3 - come to room temp, cut strings, carve roast into portions, grill along with ribs, serve.

You could do it in two days - sear and grill the second day. I don't think it makes much of a difference, but I like to think the extra day ages the cooked exterior a bit. The bigger difference is time management; when doing this at home, I like to do as little as possible on the day-of and this frees up some time.

[fourunder]

p,

thank for the details.....I hope to give it a try sometime.. It sounds like a winning recipe.

[fourunder]

Entering *Medium-Rare Prime Rib Images* in a Google search....

These two pictures came about. My results with low and slow look like the first link, bright pink evenly throughout, including deckle...but never remotely close to the darker gray ring and dark deckle result in the second

http://mmm-yoso.typepad.com/mmmyoso/images/bullyseast07.JPG

http://food.sndimg.com/img/recipes/24...

So what's your idea of *Medium-Rare*.....the first or second image?

[Swamibob]

I prefer the first image. That is how I like my filets to turn out as well. I do a high sear on the grill for 2 mins on each side, then I turn the burner off under the steaks and like them cook slowly with indirect heat only and it will turn out with only a 1/4" of gray where they were seared and all the rest will be a solid pink color. That is how it should be, the most amount of meat at the perfect temperature.

[Swamibob]

Sorry, I forgot to attach the example of how I like my fillet.

[fourunder]

Very nice....in one of the threads above where I roasted different chuck roasts at different temps and times......the ones that look like the fillet above were equally enjoyable, albeit chewier than the fillet.

[biondanonima]

I would definitely call the photo in the first link "med-rare" and the second link "medium." Although the photo in the second link is pink right at the center, the rest of the meat looks way too done to be called medium rare.

[fourunder]

Agreed, my assessment is exactly the same as yours.....I'll go on to add further that, the first link is in line with roasting low and slow.....the second link is closer to the high heat for an hour or so, then shutting off the oven for two.

[biondanonima]

Makes sense. I'm definitely going to give your method a shot the next time I have a big roast to do - have you tried this method with other large roasts, like a leg of lamb, etc?

[fourunder]

In general, I roast all meats @ 225*. I have tried lower temperatures, but for my concerns and needs, the longer time has not produced any significant results to warrant the extra time need to reach target temperatures. I probably roast two large 10-12 pound chuck roasts (3 inches thick), a couple of times a month, the same with pork shoulders, an occasional turkey and YES, with Leg of Lamb as well. I prefer the low and slow over the more moderate heat of 325-375 most recipes call for. A full leg of lamb usually takes 3.5-4.5 hours depending on size.

Other Cuts @ 225

Tri-Tip or Whole Top Butt Sirloin I seam out.

Pork Loin, Rib End Roast and Rack of Pork, Fresh Ham and Spare Ribs

Turkey 16+ pounds......12-14 pound I find I prefer 275*

Even Steaks and Chops can benefit if they are thick cuts.(reverse sear)

Chickens are the exception to low and slow method, as I find the meat becomes rubbery.

With regards to the leg of lamb or Prime Rib....if you like to make slits and fill with garlic cloves, the low and slow approach does not work well ....the garlic really doesn't soften and is raw to taste and smell.

[biondanonima]

Thanks for all this detail! Re: garlic cloves, I actually find that they don't soften enough for my taste even with higher heat. If I want garlic flavor, I prefer to fill the slits either with pre-roasted garlic or a paste made with crushed fresh and mashed roasted garlic (I just pipe it in with a piping bag or smush it in with my fingers). You don't get the visual effect of the whole cloves but I much prefer the flavor.

[acgold7]

I too love low and slow and from the moment I first tried it, I haven't looked back. I prefer browning at the beginning for the reasons detailed above. But to me, low & slow is the way to go.

[fourunder]

I changed from searing or browning in the beginning, and the Cook's Illustrated method a few years back. For lack of a better word, I may still brown initially in a 450 oven for 10-15 minutes....but my purpose is not really to brown or sear.....rather, it's really more to bring back up the temperature of the oven after opening the door and inserting the roast.

I gave up on the stove....there's less to clean, i.e., the brazier pan and stove top splatter.

[Swamibob]

I guess what held me back from the low and slow this year, was last year I did low and slow and everyone was upset at the doneness of the meat. It was too rare. The main problem was the meat thermometer was reading 130 last year, but when I pulled it out is was only 120 with my instant read. We thought it would carry over enough but it didn't so everyone didn't like how rare it was, the crowd likes a light pink. But i'll tell you what, even though it was a little under, at least you can fix it, if it over cooks you are screwed, like happened to me this year.

So this year they wanted to do the 450f for 15 mins then 325f, but they wanted it medium, not medium rare. I had a probe in the meat set to alarm at 130F and i thought it would carry to 140. When the probe said 130 i pulled it out and tested it in a new area as I was worried that the temp may be off from the probe touching a brace in the top of the oven like it was last year. When I tested it with a good instant read it was on ly at 121 in the center. I let it go anther 30 mins and poked it again and now it was reading 135F. I let it rest for 40 mins and it went all the way to 150-155 around the center. It was gray all the way.
I will go back to the slow and low method as at least it won't carry over 15-20 degrees like it did from a 325 Oven.
Do you guys prefer the blow torch method or the cook it low, let it rest, then put it back in 500F until it browns up, then carve? Also, cooking at 200F, can i cook it to 130 then cover it and expect it to be about 135 after resting. I think that will be about right for medium won't it..
Swami

[fourunder]

First, you need to know the premise of low and slow method is that it mimics the dry aging process and breaks down the meat so it can become tender. With that said, there is a difference in the overall tenderness of meat when comparing meat cooked to medium-rare with low and slow, as opposed to moderate or high. For me it's more enjoyable with the former than the latter. You can tell the difference by simply when you slice the meat or when it's on the plate with a knife and fork, or fork alone.

Your previous experience with low and slow was caused by inaccurate readings at different points or stages. Also, the carry over less than expected with the low temperature used. Your results this year with the higher temperature roast caused you heat control issues and carry over temperature.....the outer meat was hotter, which caused greater increase in holdover temperature rising. With low and slow @ 225, I expect and increase of 5-7* at most. With 200*, I would expect no more than 3*. With the higher 325, that was quite a spike even I would not have anticipated.

Pretty much everything can be explained on the low and slow approach in the following threads, with slight variations by individual posters.:

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/466614

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/824658

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/354187

This thread will provide you with information and test results I did with cheaper cuts of meat that I had successes and failures using 220* as a test temperature and Chuck Roast.

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/757268

I think if you use 220-250* as your roasting temperature...based on the details you have provided and with your families preferences....you should pull on the higher side of the meat temperature scale for medium rare and the low side for medium.....i.e., 128-132.....expecting a rise in temperature for holdover cooking to be 7-10 .

For my medium-rare roasts, I roast at 225* for 4.5-5.5 hours and pull at 118-122*, rest covered for an hour, place back into the oven for 20-30 minutes at 250* and finish with a high heat blast at 500*+ for 8-12 minutes. I find this method produces a dark outer ring or crust, and a nice consistent bright pink color in the eye throughout the entire roast.

Having served a lot of Prime Rib over the years both commercially and at home, people's conception on the actual finished temperature of medium is vastly different, especially when colors are considered. Based on your details, I would recommend a range of 135 -140.....but please do not go above 140....As you have stated...you can cook up, but not down.

Thanks for participating in the discussion.

[Swamibob]

Thanks for inviting me to the discussion. I think everyone participating in the discussion is on a quest for the perfect piece of meat.

So your idea for me will be to roast at 225 until 128-132 but then what? Let it rest an hour like you do and do the 250 for 20 mins, then 500+ to sear it? it seems like that may take it too high for me, Also with your method of turning it up after the 20-30 mins at 250, do you take it out of the over and let it get to 500+ before you do the final sear, and then at that point to you give it another rest period since it has cooked at 250 again and then 500 or is another rest period not necessary?

I do like the idea of how you do your's, and it is a little different from any I have read, if it's not a real bloody med-rare when you are done. I think that is what turns everyone off and that is why they want it medium because they don't want the pool of blood on the platter.

Thanks again for any ideas and information.
Swamibob

[fourunder]

first, ultimately it depends on the size of your roast and whether it includes bones or not. Anything under 3 ribs, I consider a large steak and treat it as such. I also like to err on the safe side, so please take that into account.

If you want to serve as quickly as possible,

* when you reach your target temperature, remove your roast and raise your oven to 450-500* for about 5 minutes to raise the temperature of the oven.

* Place your roast back into the oven to brown for 8-15 minutes, the time determined by the size and shape...flat as opposed to a higher more rounded shape.

* .Remove your roast and cover for at least 20 minutes, but 30 is better.. this is the resting period which allows the juice to redistribute throughout the roast.

* You are ready to slice and serve. Bleeding should be minimal.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So your idea for me will be to roast at 225 ....

This method you remove the roast when it hits the target temperature, cover and rest for 60 minutes. The next step is to warm the roast back up to serving temperature, it is not a second cooking intended to cook up the meat anymore, it is what I call the warm up phase. The previous resting period of one hour usually increases 5*+ , called the carry over effect. For a small 3-4 rib roast, I would pull out the roast for a few minutes while readying the 500* high heat blast. Put the roast back in for 8-12-15 minutes, again determined by size and shape. I would not remove a 5-7 rib roast while readying for the high heat blast. Remove from the oven and you are ready to slice. There is no need for a second resting period. You could slice immediately or soon after without any serious drop in meat temperature.

I have probably made a half dozen large Prime Rib Roasts since Thanksgiving 2010 using the guidelines I have just described. In the past, I used to rest only for 30 minutes, after hitting the target temperature and the final high heat blast....similar to the Serve As Quickly As Possible above. The roast was always great, but there was always a slight or noticeable amount of bleeding. After using the later method and increasing the resting period first to 45 minutes and ultimately to an hour....the results were for better on the finished roast. Zero bleeding on the plate....maybe a touch on the meat.

The family and friend are always required to give an honest assessment in an attempt to find the ultimate fool proof recipe, or process. These last half dozen roasts have been carried out with nary a single complaint. I usually purchase my meat exclusively at a wholesale meat purveyor, but I have even done a couple of these tests with rib roasts purchased at the local supermarket when on sale.

The following link is to a eGForum thread where comments are mostly positive for a low and slow attempt. Only one comment noticed the amount of bleeding and pooling of meat juices on the plate. I'm sure the roast was still good, but he simply did not allow for enough time to rest the meat. I would like others to know this could be avoided and remove the fear roasting prime rib is a gut wrenching experience.....no matter how you like your meat. Please do not cringe when you view the pictures.....

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/...

[fourunder]

RE: 2012 CHRISTMAS PRIME RIB ROASTS

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

First, I want to wish all a Happy and Healthy Holiday Season. Second, I want to than all that have participated in this discussion to date.....we have all enjoyed a good ride and we have all benefited in learning from the positive experiences of other who have shared their stories. I am humbled and honored to those who have trusted my comments and had the confidence to allow me to be part of their Holiday table ...through the greatest cut of beef...The Prime Rib Roast. There is nothing more traditional for the Holidays for many families.

As I have indicated already, I planned for two Prime Rib Roasts this year. One was 4-Ribs @ 10+ pounds and the other was 3-Ribs @ 7+ pounds each. Both roasts were from the Chuck End/Center Cut/Blade End, as it's the side I prefer for the added fat it offers.

Both roasts were trimmed a little too much for my liking, so I asked the butcher to give me some extra fat scraps to roast atop each roast to correct that issue. Each roast was allowed to Dry-Age. or simply air dry in the refrigerator for 7 days leading up to Christmas Day roasting. Two days before roasting, I prepared the roasts by partially slicing off the bones and seasoning the roast with just Kosher Salt and Fresh Cracked Black Pepper. The roasts were then subsequently tied off

The recipe, or roasting process was basically the same as always, except to note that 200* was the setting that was chosen to roast at this year. The steps were simple:

* Dry-Age for 7 Days
* Season 48 hours in advance
* Preheat oven to 450*
* Brown/Sear the roast for 20 minutes @ 450*
* Drop the oven setting to 200*
* Target temperature around 120* for Medium-Rare
* Hold the roast inside the oven @ 140* for at least two hours.
* 450* High heat blast for 10 minutes
* Ready to slice and serve

Everything was pretty much standard and expected. The only notable instances to report are that:

* Both roast hit temperature sooner than expected @ the 3 hour mark. The 3-Rib hit 122* and the 4-Rib hit 122*
* Circumstances this year forced both roasts to be held for longer than expected resting periods....3.5 and 4.5 hours before the first slice was made.
* Bleeding was minimal and not expected, but nevertheless, the end result was good and thankfully a couple of notches on the success side.

Enjoy the pictures....

[fourunder]

RE: 2012 CHRISTMAS PRIME RIB ROASTS

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Preparation pictures before roasting....

[fourunder]

RE: 2012 CHRISTMAS PRIME RIB ROASTS

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ready to roast pictures .....

[acgold7]

I like browning it first, either in a hot oven, in a pan, or with a torch. I'm always concerned about the browning at the end method -- it seems to me that after you've taken such care to make it uniform all the way through, browning at the end runs the risk of overdone on the outer layer and rising too much as it rests. Seems to me it introduces the problem we are trying to avoid. And it seems a bit complicated with two resting periods, two cooking/warming periods and an unpredictable high heat blast.

But others swear by it.

[fourunder]

...it seems a bit complicated with two resting periods, two cooking/warming periods and an unpredictable high heat blast.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I used to have your exact same sentiments...and may have actually commented exactly as you have word for word in the past here, and elsewhere.

To clarify my method, there is only one resting period, then a reheat and high heat blast. There is no second resting period. My experience has also proved the overall texture of the roast benefits from the longer resting period of one hour and less at 20-30 minutes. The evidence is the ease of chew and the zero amount of bleeding, or lack of juice pooling on the plate.

My methods and opinions were formulated using the seriouseats.com *Perfect Prime Rib* apporoach as a references and using variations to improve (in my opinion only).

[acgold7]

I do believe you, completely, because it's obvious you've done a lot of study and experimentation on this.

You don't rest the roast after the sear at the end? You remove from the oven and carve immediately? Interesting.