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Shabazi Chinese cleavers - need help reading packaging

rosetown Dec 11, 2011 02:59 PM

I recently purchased 2 Shabazi Chinese cleavers, stainless steel, 4Cr13Mov, primarily to mince small amounts of meat. I own a good quality grinder and vertical stuffer, which are stored in the basement, for large sausage making jobs. I certainly do not want to trot out the grinder for mincing 1 or 2 lbs at a time.

I’ve done 2, one pound batches so far, about 3 minutes each. Initially I started with a pinch grip, but found it wanting, and subsequently gravitated to chopping gripping the handles and taking advantage of wrist and elbow pivot. The edges held up surprising well.

I also sharpened the cleavers, on the finer side of a 2 sided, 5 dollar, Chinese stone. The improvement in sharpness from the factory edge was marginal at best. Since I’m a novice at using stones, I’ll give it another go, and if there is not a significant improvement, I will purchase a better stone.

The above aside, the script on the packaging is all in Chinese characters, and I would appreciate an interpretation.

Photos below:

 
 
 
  1. Candy Dec 11, 2011 09:37 PM

    Buy Dexter Russel

    3 Replies
    1. re: Candy
      rosetown Dec 11, 2011 09:45 PM

      Pourquoi, mon ami - it's a done deal - already tampered with and abused.

      1. re: Candy
        Chemicalkinetics Dec 11, 2011 09:54 PM

        Candy, don't be mean.

        :)

        rosetown just married Taylor Banks. You should congratulate him, not to say "Marry Heidi Klum"

        :D

        1. re: Chemicalkinetics
          rosetown Dec 11, 2011 10:05 PM

          LOL - Chem and Candy - I'm 65 years old and have no idea who Taylor Banks or Heidi Klum are. I've just started watching television - amazing. :D

      2. Chemicalkinetics Dec 11, 2011 03:44 PM

        Traitor! Traitor to CCK :D

        Great photos, and thanks for sharing.

        Ok, first, 4Cr13MoV is probably harden to a relatively soft level based on my guess. So you may not see the same edge retention as your other knives.

        What you bought are called "vegetable knives" in Chinese and are medium blade Chinese knives which can handle a wide range of tasks. Jack of all trades, master of none. If there is one Chinese you can to keep, then this is the one.

        Spine blade thickness is probably 3 -3.5 mm if I have to guess. Based your first photo, it is model #3. The second knife from this link should be your knife:

        http://www.shibazi.com/cn/product_cla...

        In your second photo, it clear states that it is a “vegetable knife” from the Flying Global Series. The Flying Global series is the stainless steel handle series for Shi Ba Zhi. Then it states your knife has anti fraud laser stamp/label on the knife and on the box to prevent imitators. On your third photo, it states instructions for sharpening the knife. 15-20° for slicers, and 20-25° for choppers. The rest is very simple, like wash the knife with water after sharpening. When wiping the knife, wipe it away from the edge to prevent injury. Store the knife where children cannot reach…etc.

        26 Replies
        1. re: Chemicalkinetics
          rosetown Dec 11, 2011 04:13 PM

          Thanks Chem - not a traitor at all - I didn't want to subject my CCK slicer to that level of abuse.;)

          "What you bought are called "vegetable knives" in Chinese and are medium blade Chinese knives which can handle a wide range of tasks. Jack of all trades, master of none. If there is one Chinese you can to keep, then this is the one."

          That's what I thought it was when I examined it in Chinatown. It is sharpened to 15-20°. So the 20-25° for choppers is for their chopper cleavers. I was confused by the diagram and didn't know if they were suggesting that I could sharpen it as a slicer or a chopper. The factory bevel is definitely 15-20°. The spine of the cleaver is 1.75 mm at most.

          Thanks for your help.

          1. re: rosetown
            Chemicalkinetics Dec 11, 2011 04:56 PM

            "The spine of the cleaver is 1.75 mm at most"

            Thinner than I have guess. Good to know. As for the angle, it is really up to you since this vegetable knife sit between a thin slicer and a thick chopper. It can lean either way. Happy time with your new knives, and please update when you find out anything new.

            1. re: Chemicalkinetics
              rosetown Dec 11, 2011 05:38 PM

              Since it seems to be working well my inclination is to continue with the more acute sharpening angle.

              That aside, and thinking of the CCK 13xx line, what sharpening stone, grit, would you recommend? I do need to buy a better than 5 dollar stone. :D

              1. re: rosetown
                Chemicalkinetics Dec 11, 2011 05:49 PM

                I think we have very similar CCK knives (maybe the same). I certainly feel a real difference between 1000 to 2000 grits (Japanese scale).... I may also feel a difference between 2000 to 5000 grits but I don't know if it is a difference which last and worthwhile. In other words, that improvement from 2000 to 5000 grits may disappear within one cooking session and render it unworthy.

                So I definitely think you need a waterstone of 1000 grit, but not above 5000 grit for the CCK knife. Do you have another fine knife which needs consideration?

                I remember you live in Canada, right? I think any Japanese made waterstones is fine. If you want to go cheap, then a King stone is always a good choice. This one looks good to me:

                http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page...

                1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                  rosetown Dec 11, 2011 06:39 PM

                  Actually, for sharpening on stones, I should consider these knives as well, a trip down memory lane:

                  http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/678962

                  Still, I think they are probably soft steel. And no, I didn't tinker with the single bevel knives.

                  1. re: rosetown
                    Chemicalkinetics Dec 11, 2011 07:03 PM

                    Oh yes, I have seen Sekiryu (関龍) knives quite often in stores. In fact, I just saw some yesterday and was wondering if I should get some, but at the end I didn't. They are not the best Japanese knives. They are budget knives -- work fine for their prices as far as I have heard.

                    http://www.sekiryu.co.jp/wabou/index-...

                    Do you know they sell all kind of other stuffs like intimated Japanese sword and intimated ninja weapons?

                    Anyway, yes, I still think the 1000-1200 King watestone will handle those more than enough.

                    1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                      rosetown Dec 11, 2011 07:30 PM

                      One last thing, I said that I would give the 5 dollar Chinese stone one more fling. Not trying to cheap out but very curious. After a few sharpening strokes I would pour water over the stone to remove the slurry (loose grit) and then continue. I'm thinking, now, that perhaps, the slurry benefits the sharpening?

                      1. re: rosetown
                        Chemicalkinetics Dec 11, 2011 08:50 PM

                        "I'm thinking, now, that perhaps, the slurry benefits the sharpening"

                        My thinking is not. Yes, the slur or the mud is beneficial for waterstones, but I doubt from these hard aluminum oxide stones. I have one too. In my experience, they easily load up because they do not wear off. If I don't wash it, then it will start to sharpen/cut slower and slower.

                  2. re: Chemicalkinetics
                    rosetown Dec 13, 2011 12:35 PM

                    Well, Lee Valley is quite a drive for me. I was thinking of buying stones and a strop from Knifewear - much closer and I want to visit their store. Some of the stones are marked out of stock. What would you select. Bearing in mind that I don't want to sharpen using stones after each cooking session.

                    stones:
                    http://knifewear.com/sharpening-family.asp?family=1002
                    strop:
                    http://knifewear.com/sharpening-famil...

                    1. re: rosetown
                      Chemicalkinetics Dec 13, 2011 01:54 PM

                      :) I thinking more like mailing to you instead of having you to drive to either places.

                      I cannot see the two links you have right now because of the internet block. I will try at home.

                      1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                        rosetown Dec 14, 2011 02:20 PM

                        So, I've just returned from Knifewear.

                        212.00 CA dollars later:
                        o Naniwa Stone #1000 hard type - 42.00
                        o Naniwa truing stone - 32.00
                        o 2 sided leather strop - 48.00
                        o bottle aluminum oxide - 9.00
                        o 3 magnetic Victorinox blade guards 22.00
                        o ceramic honing rod 49.00
                        plus 5% tax

                        They were very busy. I was served by Rob, and, after describing my knives and your advice, he confirmed all the advice that you gave me.

                        After my finger test on the smoothness of the #1000 grit, and after another Chinatown visit, I would guess that my two sided Chinese stone is #120/240 - quite a difference from #1000.

                        They were way too busy for chatting - will go back after the holidays when things slow down.

                        212 dollars later and no knife :D

                        1. re: rosetown
                          Chemicalkinetics Dec 14, 2011 03:39 PM

                          Wow, you spent a lot. I knew you can -- because you drink Scotchs. :)

                          Man, you stones cost more than your knives. :)

                          The #1000 grit stone is good. The Truing stone is reasonable, but personally I use a DMT diamond stone. The reason I use a diamond stone is that it can serve as a truing stone, but it can also act as a coarse stone. On the other hand, I think a Naniwa truing stone probably last longer.

                          Leather with aluminum oxide liquid huh? That is pretty advance stuff. :)

                          So how many of these stuffs have you opened? Are you happy with the purchase or are you having buyer remorse and want to return some of the items?

                          1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                            rosetown Dec 14, 2011 04:48 PM

                            "Wow, you spent a lot. I knew you can -- because you drink Scotchs. :)"
                            ^^^^ Good thinking ;)

                            No buyers remorse at the moment. Now I'm in a position to practice sharpening on cheaper knives. When I get better at it, I, if I choose, can buy better knives.

                            My coffee grinder, and it wasn't cheap, cost considerably more than my espresso machine - the grinder being more important than the espresso machine. Hence the investment in sharpening costing more than my knives. I could be wrong when it comes to knives but not when it comes to coffee. :)

                            1. re: rosetown
                              Chemicalkinetics Dec 14, 2011 05:12 PM

                              :) There probably isn't a good answer for knife sharpening tools cost vs knives cost. In my case, they are about the same. One can always make the argument that good knife sharpening tools can enhance the knives abilities and improves their values.

                              1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                rosetown Dec 14, 2011 08:48 PM

                                Seriously:
                                It was Cowboys posts that influenced me to purchase a CCK 13XX series.
                                It was you 'Chem' that kept me engaged.

                                All the while, in knife topics, there were conversation regarding sharpening , and unlike coffee, which I got and immediately acted on, I never acted on sharpening. Thank God, that I never purchased really good knives, without a decent sharpening strategy.

                                It was jkling that got me interested in stropping on cardboard, it works.

                                Anyhow, big thanks to all the knife posters in all the various knife topics . It has certainly helped me.

                                1. re: rosetown
                                  Chemicalkinetics Dec 14, 2011 08:54 PM

                                  "It was Cowboys posts that influenced me to purchase a CCK 13XX series"

                                  This is odd...I know you bought CCK before me, and I bought mine before cowboy bought his. You got all the time events mixed up.

                                  Good luck the new knives and the new sharpening stones. I hope they bring out the ultimate edge for you.

                                  1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                    rosetown Dec 14, 2011 09:02 PM

                                    Your purchase timeline may be right on the money. But I believe Cowboy, earlier, made reference to CCK which peaked my interest. Hey, I could be wrong. but my interest in CCK was influenced someone on this site, and I still believe it was Cowboy. :)

                                    1. re: rosetown
                                      Chemicalkinetics Dec 14, 2011 09:11 PM

                                      It is a circle. :)

                                      1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                        rosetown Dec 14, 2011 10:26 PM

                                        Here is the post by Cowboy:
                                        http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/6187...
                                        This is what got me going :D

                                  2. re: rosetown
                                    j
                                    jkling17 Dec 15, 2011 02:15 AM

                                    Hi Rose,

                                    >> It was jkling that got me interested in stropping on cardboard, it works.

                                    Really? Gosh that was just the alchohol talking ... it's nice to know that even a blind squirrel will find a nut now and then ...

                                    It might be overkill for the Cleaver but you might consider at some point getting some chromium oxide or abrasive films. With these and a cheap mousepad you can try your hand at doing a convex edge. People with sick sharpening skills use these things:

                                    http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32984&cat=1,43072.
                                    http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page...

                                    Note: I don't do any stropping. A quick touchup with 1200/8000 stones does the trick for me. BUT ... now that I have my super blue nakiri ... I might start thinking about stropping with abrasives .... someday - IF the world isn't going to end in 2012.

                2. re: rosetown
                  Chemicalkinetics Dec 11, 2011 09:52 PM

                  "The spine of the cleaver is 1.75 mm at most."

                  By the way, you are right. 3-3.5 mm is more like a real meat cleaver. Chinese vegetable knife should be 2 mm or less in spine thickness. Thanks for your correction.

                  1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                    j
                    jkling17 Dec 13, 2011 06:17 PM

                    1.75? That's a nice thin cleaver - how much is that?

                    1. re: jkling17
                      Chemicalkinetics Dec 13, 2011 06:43 PM

                      Hi jk,

                      Here are the thickness measurements of my four cleavers. They are the thickness at the spine over the heel area.

                      Meat cleaver: 3 mm, Dexter-Russell: 2.5 mm, Sekizo: 2 mm, CCK KF130: 2 mm.

                      While the CCK appears to be similar to others, it tapers quickly from heel to tip as well as from spine to edge. At the spine, the CCK is 2 mm near over the heel, but less than 1 mm at the tip (0.7 - 0.8 mm). In contrast, Dexter-Russell remains 2.5 mm thickness from heel to tip.

                      The CCK KF1303 can be bought for >$30 if you live close to one of the Chinatowns which offer it. Alternatively, Mark from Chefknivestogo for $40.

                      1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                        j
                        jkling17 Dec 13, 2011 07:17 PM

                        Cool - thanks. Now that I've been using my nakiri for a few more days, I'm not sure that I will get a light cleaver to augment or replace my cheap chinese cleaver. The nakiri seems to fit this role quite well but I'd never use it to cleave through small chicken bones. It did do a great job tonight with a butternut squash. I'm impressed ... but that's all I'm going to say until I'm ready for a full review, and want to give it a really thorough workup before I do that.

                        1. re: jkling17
                          Chemicalkinetics Dec 13, 2011 07:33 PM

                          Looking forward to hear more. :D (like to hear all the goods and bads -- please don't refrain yourself from making criticisms.

                          1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                            j
                            jkling17 Dec 13, 2011 09:10 PM

                            Oh I won't hold back :-) So far the only criticism that I'm willing to share at this point is that it was a bit tough to get that darn sticker off of the handle, along with adhesive residue. Not a deal killer by any stretch, though. My initial reactions are mostly favorable, in varying degrees, without any buyers remorse. It was surprisingly sharp right out of the box. And I have yet to think about giving it a touch up at all.

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