Japanese knife question - Rusting
I received a Japanese knife from some friends that live in Japan as a gift. I honestly don't know much about knives or Japanese knives for that matter.
I had a question about rusting on this particular knife. This knife seems to rust really easily. If I don't wipe dry immediately and put on some type of oil. ( I have been using mineral oil.)
Why does it rust so easily? Inexpensive knife? Any way to prevent this?
The knife is interesting in that some things it will slice through very easily, while others like an apple it doesn't slice through easily. I think it has something to do with the way the knife was made. Looks as though there are pounding marks on the top part of the knife and then the knife was sharpened and smoothed only on the blade part of the knife.
I attached some pictures.
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Nobu was on Martha Stewart showing the care and feeding of his high carbon steel knives. (found this a while back when I was searching for info on him). The powder is (in essence) Oxyclean. These techniques should prove useful with your Santoku.
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scubadoo97
Oct 27, 2011 05:23 AM
Yup that is the bad rust. As you now know, you must dry your carbon steel knives immediately after use. I never worry about the use of oil for long storage and I live in humid Florida. No rust yet as long as the knives have been clean and dry before storage.
Have fun using this knife and you will need to learn to keep it sharp.
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chemicalkinetics - Thank you for the reiteration of what cowboyardee said and also the great information on the red rust and the black rust. I will make sure to be careful to keep it dry at all times. I've been using it for the past few weeks but wasn't aware until now that I had to wipe it down so frequently. I thought I would be able to cut a few items, cook a bit and cut up some more items without it rusting. I noticed that even after letting it sit for 10 minutes or so the rusting process begins. That's why I was oiling it to hopefully help prevent it.
Dave5440 - I figured because of the rusting that was occurring that the knife may havebeen of lesser quality. Once again, no knowledge of knives at all on my part.
Here is a picture of the other side of the blade. The handle doesn't have any inscriptions on the other side.
Thanks again for all the great information.
›13 Replies
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re: TNT Adventures
I was wondering if you all would help me with a few other knife choices. I didn't want to start another knife thread.
I am looking to get another chefs knife (8" or 10"), pairing knife, and a serrated edge knife.
I have a pretty small budget of about $150 for all three knives. Would any of you be able to recommend a couple of knives that might fit within that budget but are fantastic knives in your opinions?
Thanks again! You all are the best and a great source of information.
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re: TNT Adventures
Chemicalkinetics
Oct 26, 2011 04:09 PM
"but wasn't aware until now that I had to wipe it down so frequently"
You only have to do it for the first few days. You will able to see the edge of the steel turns to slight color of black/grey/blue Then you can relax a bit. Still, you will always have to care for it more than a stainless steel knife, but I don't wipe my knife immediately anymore.
"I thought I would be able to cut a few items, cook a bit and cut up some more items without it rusting."
Yes, you can especially after forming the black oxide.
"I am looking to get another chefs knife (8" or 10"), pairing knife, and a serrated edge knife. "
It really depends how you want to allocate your spending. Normally, I would suggest to spend a lot more on the Chef's knife and less for the paring and the serrated bread knife. However, you already have what looks like a great Santoku knife, so I am not sure if you need a great Chef's knife. It really comes down to the fact that if you think this carbon steel santoku would be your main kitchen knife.
Assuming the future Chef's knife will be your main knife and not this santoku, then I suggest a victorinox ($9) or dexter russell paring knife, a victorinox ($26) or dexter russell bread knife
http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-47508-4-Inch-Paring-Knife/dp/B0001V3UYG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319670290&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-47547-4-Inch-Fibrox-Handle/dp/B00093090Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319670151&sr=8-1This leaves you more than $115.
A 8" Tojiro gyuto ($80) is a good choice:
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/tojiro-dp-f-8081.html
A 8" JCK Original CarboNext gyuto ($105) is also suitable. CarboNext is not true stainless steel, but it behaves very much like one.
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re: TNT Adventures
Chemicalkinetics
Oct 26, 2011 04:32 PM
"I always thougth santoku's were the the knives with the gills or slits on the side."
A lot of Western companies made Santoku have these dimples, but they are not required. Most Japanese made Santoku actually do not have the dimples. For example this is a Moritaka Santoku:
http://www.moritakahamono.com/en/hocyo1-3santk.html#ks-170
And this is a Watanabe Santoku:
http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/...
Neither has dimples. It is the overall knife edge profile makes your knife a santoku.
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re: TNT Adventures
Chemicalkinetics
Oct 26, 2011 09:26 PM
Not a problem. Getting to an earlier point, in the case which you like the Santoku a lot and will use it as your main knife, then you may want to allocate your spending differently. You may want to buy a cheaper Chef's knife and spend more on the paring or the serrated bread knife.
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re: Chemicalkinetics
I think I would use the chefs knife about 90% of the time, so it makes more sense for me at the moment to get an inexpensive paring knife and inexpensive serrated bread knife and buy a higher quality chefs knife. My wife could use one of them. She isn't terribly comfortable with the somewhat higher maintenance with the current santoku knife.
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re: TNT Adventures
Chemicalkinetics
Oct 26, 2011 11:19 PM
"She isn't terribly comfortable with the somewhat higher maintenance with the current santoku knife."
It can be your knife then. :) In all honesty, you can consider giving it to one of your friends as long as he/she does not mind a carbon steel knife. It does look like a good knife.
If your wife prefers a lower maintenance knife, then stainless steel is definitely the way to go. The first decision to make after this is to decide if you want a thinner blade harder steel knife like the Tojiro gyuto mentioned or a more traditional thicker blade, forged, softer steel knife. If you like the latter, then Messerimester is not a bad choice for its quality and for its price:
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re: Chemicalkinetics
Hi Chemical - I just purchased the two Victorinox knives that you recommended. The paring and the serrated edge knife.
What are you thoughts on the Tojiro Gyuto and the JCK that you recommended? Would you highly recommend one over the other? There is about a $25 difference which isn't much, but if the lesser priced knife is equally as good, I might as well go with that one.
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re: TNT Adventures
cowboyardee
Oct 27, 2011 09:57 AM
Tojiro:
+ easier to sharpen
+ cheaper
+ lookswise, pretty similar for a lower price
+ a tiny bit more resistant to stainingJCK carbonext
+ Better edge retention
+ Less prone to (tiny) chipping
+ Better distal taper (the tip is more precise and glides through food more easily)
+ Handle is similar but just a little less 'blocky'
+ From reports over at the knife forums, it seems the Carbonext is most consistent in terms of fit an finishFujiwara FKM (I just bought one for my mom, incidentally)
+ Cheaper than either
+ Good grind and profile - similar to the JCK Carbonext
+ Probably less prone to chipping than either of the above
+ Fully stainless like the Tojiro DP
- But it has the worst edge retention and is most prone to rolling its edgeThey're all good knives. And they're all selling at a good price. You'll probably be happy with any of them.
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re: TNT Adventures
Chemicalkinetics
Oct 27, 2011 10:13 AM
cowboy pretty much answered the difference between the two. Tojiro DP is a stainless steel knife, while the JCK CarboNext is very close to being a stainless steel knife, but it isn't.
Fujiwara is also a true stainless steel knife and it is made of a softer steel, so it is less prone to chipping. There is a balance between chipping and rolling the edge. The softer the steel, the less likely it will chip, but more likely it will deform and roll. The harder the steel, the more likely it can chip, but less likely to roll.
Take the exterme examples between bubble gum and water cracker.
http://www.foodsubs.com/Photos/waterc...
You can never chip a bubble gum (unless you freeze it :) ), but it deforms very easily. A water cracker is very difficult to deform, but it can crack.
If your wife and you want a true stainless steel knife, then CarboNext may not be your choice. Tojiro DP and Fuijiwara are more stain resistance. Now, you just have to decide if you want a slightly harder steel Tojiro knife or a slightly softer steel Fujiwara knife. If you want the thicker traditional and softer steel Chef's knife, then we are back to knives like Henckels and Wusthof as well as Messerimeister. Between these German knives, I prefer Messerimeister a touch better because it is slightly cheaper and because it has a reduced bolster making it easier to sharpen.
Now, I personally prefer the thinner Japanese influenced knives, but that is a personal choice. Yours will be different. If you don't know for sure, then you can try to borrow one of these Japanese made knives from a friend and try it for a day or two. Worse come worse, you can always go to Williams Sonoma or Sur La Table and try to use the Shun knives, Global knives against the Henckels and Wusthof knives. Bring a few carrot sor potatoes with you.
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Chemicalkinetics
Oct 26, 2011 02:51 PM
TNT,
cowboy pretty much said everything. It looks like a handmade carbon steel knife or semi-handmade one. Unlike stainless steel, carbon steel can readily rust. The upside of a carbon steel knife is that it is easier to sharpen and takes on a very nice fine edge.
What I would do is to remove the rust you have now. Bar Keeper's Friend is effective to remove rust, vinegar works to some extend.
Red rust is an oxidized form of iron. What you want is NOT to form red rust, but it is fine and preferable to form magnetite (also refered as black rust, black oxide or patina). Once the knife has formed a layer of black ocide, then it will discaourge red rust formation. In short, the black oxide provide an relatively anti-rust surface.
So, you will have to be very careful the first week using the knife: immediately cleaning the knife after and drying it as much as you can after usage. The black oxide will form sooner or later, and it will come in the form of bluish color or black color -- not red. Once it forms that black/blue layer, then you can be a bit more careless.
›11 Replies-
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re: Dave5440
Chemicalkinetics
Oct 26, 2011 10:38 PM
Dave,
It definitely has the signs of a (partial) hand made knife with the hammered pattern on the knife. These hammered marks are not the pretty pattern like Shun Premier:
http://images.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/shun/images/KSTDM0706.jpg
Rather they look much more subtle, so they are probably real hammered marks in the knife making process. That does not mean it is an expensive knife, but it does point to the fact that it is probably not a low quality knife.
I looked up the shop name from the characters on the knife handle: 野口鍛冶店
This is the website:
http://www.noguchi-kajiten.co.jp/
It appears that it is a blacksmith shop which specialize farming and gardening tools as opposed to kitchen knives, though it does produce few knives, like these soba noodle knives:
http://www.noguchi-kajiten.co.jp/s_me...
ranging from US $1000+ for the damascus pattern ones to the $70 least expensive ones.
Many of those knives are made of 安来鋼 (Yasugi steels) or better known as the YSS steels, but there are many YSS steels like the white paper steel, blue paper steel, yellow paper steel...etc.
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re: Dave5440
Chemicalkinetics
Oct 27, 2011 06:50 PM
You two are making me blushed. I didn't do anything beside using Google.
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re: TeRReT
Chemicalkinetics
Oct 27, 2011 11:16 PM
"but i don't have the benefit of my girlfriend at this time "
Is she knife-hunting for you in Japan?
"it'll be forever before i can read kanji"
I am the opposite because I can read Chinese characters, and I am sure you know Japanese Kanji is rooted from Chinese. In fact, Kanji literally means Characters of Han people of Characters of Chinese.
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re: Chemicalkinetics
TeRReT
Oct 28, 2011 09:44 AM
yes, but the over 2000 kanji characters make me cringe, i am having a tough enough time remembering the first 20 characters of hiragana :P
And I expect so, I haven't instructed her to, but christmas and birthdays are coming up :P She will be coming to canada to spend the holidays here for 2 months before we both go back to Japan together, so I'm sure there will be a knife somewhere in the future! I'd still really love to get all 3 7000mcds just to have the collection, but given neither of us have a job and have just travelled for 14 months and she is spending a lot of money to come here, and then we both go back to Japan, for some reason I feel bad asking for them for christmas :P
oh, and those pesky engagement rings aren't cheap either, actually now that I think about it i think its going to be quite awhile before I get a knew knife, 2 in the last year plus edgepro will have to suffice
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re: TeRReT
Chemicalkinetics
Oct 28, 2011 01:07 PM
Is the EdgePro working out for you? Many people love it. Some say it is ok, but not great.
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re: Chemicalkinetics
TeRReT
Oct 28, 2011 01:13 PM
the system itself works great, i will eventually have to buy whatever mechanism for leveling the stones, but thats not an issue yet, and I still have to work out my angles. I am able to get a burr quickly and get things very sharp, just each knife obviously has a different blade angle and I am working out whats best for the miyabi, the super blue japanese, and my henckel pro santoku, i've got the pro pretty great now the super blue is new and only used 3 times so its not been sharpened yet, and the miyabi is pretty good but i was just playing with it, i don't actually know optimal angle for it yet. With the chosera stones though I am able to get a mirrored finish on all knives, so thats been fun, i played with my parents knives too but am not as concerned with their angles :P
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re: TeRReT
Chemicalkinetics
Oct 28, 2011 04:45 PM
"i played with my parents knives too but am not as concerned with their angles"
Yes, but I bet they appreciate that you sharpen their knives for them.
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cowboyardee
Oct 26, 2011 11:12 AM
Your knife is probably handmade, and certainly carbon steel. Carbon steel can rust if it is left in wet conditions or especially if it is left in acidic conditions. The top (black) part of the knife is wrought iron cladding and isn't so reactive as the edge and gray steel above the edge. You should be able to avoid rusting by wiping the knife regularly during use (keep a dry towel nearby, and wiping becomes a habit that is quick and efficient) and by hand-washing and DRYING your knife immediately after use. Don't use soap if you don't really need to. And make sure that wherever you store it between normal use doesn't retain moisture.
Mineral oil is a good idea when you're putting the knife into longer term storage. It's not usually necessary for normal maintenance, but some people who live in areas with high humidity may find that it is helpful as a regular measure.
You can help avoid rust by following the advice I give you above. Also, deep scratches in the carbon steel will rust more easily than a smoothly polished surface, so make sure when you (or your sharpener) thin behind the edge bevel that you sharpen thoroughly up to a medium grit not just at the edge but for any part of the carbon steel that is scratched by a coarse stone.
You can get rid of most rust with a mild abrasive. It's easy. Just don't let it keep on rusting, or you could have a harder problem to solve.
›2 Replies-
re: cowboyardee
cowboyardee
Oct 26, 2011 11:23 AM
By the way, chances are your knife cuts through some things easily but not others because it is thin and sharp, but has a fairly flat grind. This makes it cut very easily through things that aren't prone to sticking badly to the blade (maybe onions, carrots, scallions, herbs, etc) but not through things that stick badly (apples, potatoes). A good sharpener could change this a little bit by giving your knife an asymmetrical edge and maybe convexing the face of the blade a bit. But for the most part, that's just how your blade is made, for better or worse. It still looks like a nice little knife. Enjoy it.
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re: cowboyardee
cowboyardee - Thanks! I was hoping that you would give me some advice. You and chemicalkinetics seem to be the resident knife experts.
Yes, from what I was told the knife was handmade by a family that supposedly had been making knifes since the samurai days.
You are 100% correct about the black part of the knife not being as reactive and rusting.
So this is just the nature of the knife. Thanks again for the valuable and great information.
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