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Carded in our Mid 50s!

My husband and I (both in our mid-50s) went to a brand-new chain restaurant that just opened in Downingtown and ordered a drink. Our waitress very seriously asked if we had ID. We both laughed and then she was serious and that they "card everyone." We were taken aback, but did produce our ID. Now this would have been flattering and even funny 20 years ago, but being asked by a 20 something to show ID when we are CLEARLY over 21 is demeaning and insulting. We e-mailed the restaurant last night and received a very nice response confirming that this is, in fact, their company policy. We won't be going back.

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  1. Why not name the restaurant? If it's that offensive I assume you'd want to clearly warn or tell others of their policy...

    10 Replies
    1. re: sockii

      You're right - Buffalo Wild Wings!

      1. re: LittleDowell

        We were carded at BWW recently, and one woman, looking every bit of 60, didn't have id on her (she came directly from tennis with a group of women) and they refused to serve her. Kind of silly.

        1. re: jeanmarieok

          Not silly. In case of a lawsuit, statements of an incident such as this can be used as proof of a consistent, longstanding, nationwide policy.

          1. re: Cathy

            Virtually every other western country in the would would find this scenario so intensely absurd as to be downright laughable.

            It really is a case of going through the looking glass... when we adhere to the letter of the law this closely, we lose sight of the real reasons why these laws were enacted in the first place.

            It's like when my father adopted all the varied and unusual rules of Orthodox Judaism. It took him years to finally understand that it's not the performing of the actions but the spirit in which they are enacted that makes one a religious person.

            If all you do is walk lock-step to the rules, you're not religious-- you're a zealot.

            Mr Taster

              1. re: hill food

                Quite honestly, I'm a bit surprised that most people on this thread seem to be fine with the absurdity of it all.

                Mr Taster

                1. re: Mr Taster

                  it is absurd - but in the grand scheme of things - is it worth getting your knickers in a bunch over?

                  1. re: Mr Taster

                    Oh I think everyone posting here would agree with it all being absurd- especially the state to state antiquated and confusing liquor laws. However absurd, most folks understand that business owners sometimes need to make decisions that allow for them to function in the most effective and less libelous way overall. Absurd or not.

            1. re: jeanmarieok

              I would never, ever leave the house without ID. What if there was an accident and they needed to quickly identify me?

              1. re: Fowler

                good point Fowler, even with ID in the car, a friend was a 'Jane Doe' for a few days 2 years ago (no alcohol involved but you can imagine how much longer it would have taken and how much worse ti might have been before she was found comatose in an ICU - eventually happy endings, I'm not being Cpt. Bringdown tonight) so take that ID!

                when I get carded by somebody half my age at a store I dead pan "c'mon dude, be COOL!, it's for my Mom and she gets real MEAN if we let her sober up!"

        2. I think you are overreacting. It's not demeaning and insulting, it's the law. You should be prepared to show ID any time you order alcohol. If you dont want to produce ID, don't drink.

          33 Replies
          1. re: twyst

            I have seen this selectively at different establishments, including at Wegman's, and of all places Chicago O'Hare airport. I was with my boss and his eighty year old mother, and they even carded her. It makes the insurance companies happy I am sure.

            1. re: cwdonald

              Every bar in every airport in the US cards everyone.

              1. re: mtoo

                I've never been carded at Logan Aiport and neither has DH.

                1. re: Isolda

                  I havent been carded at any airports recently..

                  I was carded at Yankee stadium Friday night, at the Paul McCartney concert..I was annoyed I couldnt get a beer, because I didnt have id...but I kind of get it.

                  At Shea stadium a few years ago - got really annoyed..
                  At the bars, they have a sign that says "Anyone not obviously over 40 will be id'd"

                  So, me and hubby wait on a half hour line, (at the time we were both just over 40) , get i'd, can't produce, and the lady yells to her boss "should I serve them? - THEY LOOK WELL OVER 40!!"
                  gee thanks lady!
                  and then the final insult = she didnt serve us!

                  1. re: NellyNel

                    that was a *bad* evening, I agree!

                  2. re: Isolda

                    I have, within the last few years. And I'm over 50! (btw, I don't mind it. After all, in an airport you always should have your ID on you anyway. And I kind of LIKE being carded:-)

                    1. re: pikawicca

                      Excuse me I meant to say State Law, as in Texas and Florida to cite 2 of the 24 States that currently have "Stop and Identify Laws"....sorry....

                      1. re: ospreycove

                        Well it's not the law in my state, thank God, so I'll continue to wander a ten block radius risking life and limb without an ID when I feel like it.

                        1. re: ospreycove

                          Yeah, and those are going to go down in the Federal courts.

                          1. re: pikawicca

                            We speak about how unfair "stop and identify" laws are in the US, and are directed in a discriminatory way toward latinos, but on the flip side of the coin, when I live in Mexico I am required to have my FM2 visa in my posession at all times.

                            1. re: Veggo

                              I don't really give a flying fuck what they do in Mexico (or Germany, where you'd think they'd have have learned not to demand one's "papers.") I expect more of the USA.

                              1. re: pikawicca

                                I am by now accustomed to expect little from a country that dictates to me to where I cannot travel, i.e. Cuba. Screw 'em. And I look forward to posting more about the jewel of the Antilles, including the 2 newest restos at Marina Hemingway.

                                1. re: pikawicca

                                  Germany has a much lower DUI rate than the USA , by asking for proof of age they are protecting life. I cannot comment on Mexico's experience.

                                  1. re: ospreycove

                                    Is there any evidence to support the idea that a requirement to present ID lowers DUI rates? Any? It seems to me there could be a number of factors that influence DUI rates.

                                    1. re: ospreycove

                                      Well...in Germany, if you get caught drinking and driving, you go to jail for a year and you never drive again. Period. The Krauts don't mess around with lengthy court proceedings, counseling, rehab, 1st offense, 2nd offense, etc. One time and you're done. Understand, this is a kultur that love's it's booze. When people go to the bar, they either walk or hire a car. I think that has a lot to do with the low DUI rate.

                                        1. re: flavrmeistr

                                          in France, they take your car on the first offense. Similarly, no arguing.

                                          And legal limit is .05 -- so while there will always be offenders, most folks toe the line.

                                          1. re: sunshine842

                                            "in France, they take your car on the first offense. Similarly, no arguing. And legal limit is .05"

                                            I would imagine most tourists do not know that. A few years ago we and two other couples toured the Southern Rhone wineries. The person that was driving was not drunk "drunk" but may have been at .05.

                                            Thanks for the warning.

                                          2. re: flavrmeistr

                                            In my experience (stationed over in Germany for 3 years), that's not entirely accurate because it depends on the definition of "drinking and driving." I know of MANY U.S. Servicemembers who were pulled over by the German polizei, administered a breathalyzer and blew around around a .05 - .08, and who just received an "infraction" or ticket from the German authorities but were then more severely punished by the U.S. military. Generally speaking, it takes a higher BAC for German officials to consider it "drinking and driving."

                                            1. re: mjhals

                                              As we have had a large military presence in Germany since the end WWII, my guess is the local authorities leave the punishment of US military personnel to the US military authorities if there is no harm to a German citizen involved. It may be different for non-citizen civillians as well. A friend of mine worked for Seimens over there for about two years. He told me one of his American colleagues was immediately deported and barred from reentry for a charge of drunk driving. Like I said, they don't **** around.

                                              1. re: flavrmeistr

                                                The US military is exceedingly strict about alcohol among the military personnel. There's a military base in Afghanistan that's being shared by the US and German militaries. The US side is completely dry. The Germans deliver free beer to their soldiers. Any US soldier who accepts an alcoholic drink is court-martialed.

                                                Incidentially enough, many of the German soldiers also have long hair and a general "unkempt" appearance. The sight would make their Prussian ancestors weep with shame.

                                                1. re: Roland Parker

                                                  Agreed about the military being strict about alcohol, and you're right, there is absolutely no alcohol permitted in our CENTCOM (Middle East) theaters. There's a General Order (GO #1) prohibiting alcohol, sex, porn and civilian clothes in theater.

                                                  But you generally won't get court-martialed for a violation, instead you're looking at what's called "non-judicial" punishment- essentially an Article 15 or a reprimand. Still, it's enough to ruin a career and cost some fines and hard labor.

                                                  It's not an easy 15 months, and I personally think the general public at times loses sight of the sacrifices our military makes.

                                    2. re: ospreycove

                                      Stop and identify laws though typically require one to identify oneself, not to produce documentation of that identification. I think...

                                      1. re: debbiel

                                        This generalization of "Stop and Identify" is a little nebulous in its application; as state laws are written by the individual state representatives. So they vary in application from state to state.In some states , truthful verbal response is enough in others "official documents" are needed, drivers license, state issued i.d., National passports, etc.

                                        1. re: ospreycove

                                          Which states are those Ospreycove? I ask genuinely, as I have read up a bit on this and not seen that. Even with the Arizona law, which is abhorrent in my opinion, I don't think there is an obligation for US citizens to present identification, only to identify one's name. That said, in practice, I'm sure people are wrongfully pressured into presenting identification.

                                          1. re: debbiel

                                            debbiel, This is a quick overview.
                                            Variations in “stop and identify” laws
                                            Four states’ laws (Arizona, Indiana, Nevada, and Ohio) explicitly impose an obligation to provide identifying information.
                                            Fifteen states grant police authority to ask questions, with varying wording, but do not explicitly impose an obligation to respond:
                                            In Montana, police “may request” identifying information;
                                            In 13 states (Alabama, Delaware, Illinois, Kansas, Louisiana, Missouri, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New York, North Dakota, Rhode Island, Utah, Wisconsin), police “may demand” identifying information;
                                            As confusing as the non-conformity of state laws seem to be. The asking/demanding of proof of age for alcohol sales is somewhat related to the Stop and i.d. laws of that state

                                            1. re: ospreycove

                                              Thanks ospreycove, though that's the same info I have. What I have read on the 4 states that impose an obligation to provide identifying info is that it is NOT a requirement that the identifying info be in the form of an official document. It can be, "my name is ____"

                                              1. re: debbiel

                                                Some selected citations from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and... :

                                                "...Noncompliance with a “stop and identify” law that does not explicitly impose a penalty may constitute violation of another law, such as one to the effect of “resisting, obstructing, or delaying a peace officer”." --- (my words next) which may lead to an arrest or detention at the least.

                                                "...It is not universally agreed that, absent a “stop and identify law”, there is no obligation for a detainee to identify himself. For example, as the U.S. Supreme Court noted in Hiibel, California’s “stop and identify” statute was voided in Kolender v. Lawson. But in People v. Long,[36] decided four years after Kolender, a California appellate court found no constitutional impropriety in a police officer’s demand for written identification from a detainee."

                                                "Some courts, e.g., State v. Flynn (Wis. 1979)[39] and People v. Loudermilk (Calif. 1987)[40] have held that police may perform a search for written identification if a suspect refuses to provide it; a later California decision, People v. Garcia (2006) strongly disagreed.[41]"

                                                "Recommendations of legal-aid organizations

                                                Some legal organizations, such as the National Lawyers Guild and the ACLU of Northern California, caution against refusing to identify oneself whether or not a jurisdiction has a “stop and identify” law:

                                                And in any state, police do not always follow the law, and refusing to give your name may make them suspicious and lead to your arrest, so use your judgment. If you fear that your name may be incriminating, you can claim the right to remain silent, and if you are arrested, this may help you later. Giving a false name could be a crime.[42]

                                                In a more recent pamphlet, the ACLU of Northern California go even further, recommending that a person detained by police

                                                . . . give your name and the information on your drivers’ license. If you don’t, you may be arrested, even though the arrest may be illegal.[43] "


                                                I think it is simpler to just carry your ID with you, unless you have something to hide.

                                  2. re: mtoo

                                    I haven't been carded at an airport for years and years, even though I do occasionally get carded at bars outside of airports.

                                    I'm in my 40s. I do look young for my age but not THAT young. When I do get carded, I usually assume the server is trying to kiss up to me. And that's just fine. :)

                                    1. re: mtoo

                                      The only bar in an airport where I'm carded is the Fox Sports Bar in the Houston airport (IAH). They card everyone.

                                2. Would it have been less demeaning or insulting if the server was your age? Regardless, it appears to be a trend. I experienced it recently having dinner at the Charlotte airport. When I was carded I told the waitress that she made my day, only to see later a sign on the wall stating that they card EVERYONE. I saw no reason to take offence, nor should you; I'm sure your young server was only doing her job.

                                  5 Replies
                                  1. re: janniecooks

                                    No joke. What if the manager told her "card everyone, no excuses", or risk being fired. Really don't understand why this is a big deal.

                                    1. re: janniecooks

                                      janniecooks, telling people they shouldn't feel a certain way never works. People feel what they feel. I have a few friends who don't like giving out their ages, especially when they are with their younger bf/gf. If the id is handled carelessly the other people with them could see their date of birth. For me personally this is a non-issue right now as I am trying to cut down on expenses, so water, iced tea or coconut milk are my beverages of choice but I can't help think of the shakespeare quote "the first thing we do, lets kill all the lawyers" Thanks for posting this Littledowell.

                                      1. re: givemecarbs

                                        if you're so worried about your younger bf/gf finding out your date of birth that you don't want to pull out your ID, there are more issues at play than just having a drink.

                                        1. re: givemecarbs

                                          pardon my error. of course you're right.

                                      2. I'm a few years behind ya but never care about being carded. Makes me laugh sometimes. Some restaurants have that policy, no biggie. The servers are observed by management to ensure that they comply, they have no option to count wrinkles and decide that you pass.

                                        Their wings are reasonably tasty and acceptable quality, the service brisk, and they have a good draught beer or two. Be a shame to discount a handy takeaway place over a reasonable policy.

                                        1. I've certainly run into this before; often, at places that have had problems in the past and, as part of their remedy for their problems, has been required by the relevant regulators to adopt a policy of this sort.

                                          I don't consider it insulting or demeaning.

                                          1. given the size of the fines and the length of the jail times handed out to servers, managers, and owners for serving someone who's underage, I would think you'd be slightly more understanding that rather than trying to wing a judgment call and get in trouble, it's just easier and far less risky to just card everyone.

                                            I suspect that if you stop going to places that card you, you'll very soon run out of restaurants to visit.

                                            2 Replies
                                            1. re: sunshine842

                                              Absolutely correct. Businesses that are serious about staying out of trouble with their liquor control board just make it a straight-across-the-board policy.

                                              Personally, I prefer having it be a consistent enforced policy than something that is subjective and left to the server's or bartender's discretion. No need for clever comments, questions about flattery for higher tips, etc. It just is what it is.

                                              1. re: sunshine842

                                                Exactly. When my mother had to do the same on her job, she used to ask the complainers if they'd also be paying her fine, serving her jail time, or supporting her in unemployment if she got fired.

                                              2. I wouldn't go back either. if you are clearly of age, there is no reason to be carded.

                                                1. I don't blame the restaurant for being cautious. The fines and risk of loss of license is too great to worry about your ego. For all they know, you might have been involved in some police or management "sting" to try to trap them. Better to be safe and card.

                                                  1. You should feel flattered!

                                                    1. Little Dowell....which restaurant? Olive Garden, PJ Whelihans, or Buffalo Wild Wings?

                                                      A few years ago DH and I went to Ruby Tuesdays and sat at the bar for a beverage. We are both over 35 and we were carded. Of course I left my ID at home that night and the bartender refused to serve me and also refused to serve my husband. We were also asked to leave the bar area and the bartender was very rude about the whole issue. The last straw was when the manager came over to seat us and started giving me a lecture about carrying picture id, it's the law that I have to carry a picture ID at all times, etc. We left and have never gone back. I clearly undersand that restaurants have policies in their establishment for a reason but the way I was treated really left me turned off.

                                                      1. I only find policies like that annoying when I realize I don't have ID on me. I'm in my 30s--no one is going to mistake me for 20--but I do understand that it's easier to have a blanket policy that protects the restaurant. I don't understand why you would feel demeaned or insulted, frankly.

                                                        1. "being asked by a 20 something to show ID when we are CLEARLY over 21 is demeaning and insulting."

                                                          No, it would be demeaning and insulting if they yelled across the room "Can you believe s/he is only 53? I would have bet s/he was at least 70! Don't you exfoliate?"

                                                          I'm over 50 and got carded for cough syrup recently. Kind of surprised me as I don't recall ever having that happen, but it was barely a hiccup in the transaction.

                                                          I was a notary once and part of our training was to request photo ID of everyone, even your mother. The logic was that if you always saw ID you would never be unsure if you were in a court of law. Same logic applies here with liqueur sales.

                                                          Taking a company policy designed to protect the public, the employees and the business as a personal affront is just silly.

                                                          3 Replies
                                                          1. re: meatn3

                                                            Agreed that this is probably a company policy and individuals shouldn't be personally offended to be asked to show ID.

                                                            You likely were carded for the cough syrup not because of alcohol content but because meth heads (and sellers) use it to cook up their speed. The pseudoephedrine in the medecine is a controlled substance, so pharmacies have to keep a list of their customers who buy it.

                                                            1. re: wasny

                                                              I got carded when I bought rubber cement at Target today. Apparently it's used for something other than craft projects.

                                                          2. Really? A simple ID request that applies to everyone was "demeaning and insulting"?

                                                            5 Replies
                                                            1. re: ferret

                                                              I don't know if I'd agree with 'demeaning and insulting' but annoying? Absolutely. The same blanket policies that say that you should card anyone, even if they look like your grandmother are the ones that are used by people to kick a 2nd grader out of school for bringing a plastic knife in their lunchbox because it's 'a weapon'.

                                                              It seems like in this day and age it is perfectly acceptable to just put in place an idiotic policy rather than have people exercise JUDGEMENT.

                                                              And, at least in California, while the law says that you are required to CARRY identification that shows you are 21 in order to drink in a bar or restaurant there is no requirement that the serving staff of the restaurant actually see it.

                                                              1. re: meadandale

                                                                How is it annoying? How long or invasive is it to reach in your pocket or purse and produce an ID? 10 seconds?

                                                                1. re: meadandale

                                                                  "It seems like in this day and age it is perfectly acceptable to just put in place an idiotic policy rather than have people exercise JUDGEMENT."

                                                                  Exercising judgement is great if the person has the experience to do so. Many servers are given very little training, even less on how to ascertain age. I've seen guys bald before age 25 and women with so much sun damage that a 30 year old looks almost 60. Even the OP has trouble - mentioned the server was a 20-something, but couldn't determine if the server was 20 or 23 - big difference in legal ramifications!

                                                                  Most of us are pretty good at pegging age if it is close to our own age. I'm usually on the money with someone within 12 years plus or minus my age. Any further, particularly younger and I can't reliably determine age. In a restaurant/bar situation you don't have time to chat long enough to get verbal indicators of age.

                                                                  Why take offense when someone is simply doing their job? This is an industry that believes the workers are a dime a dozen and will fire one at the drop of a hat.

                                                                  1. re: meatn3

                                                                    About 12 years ago I got carded at my neighborhood liquor store by a new employee. He saw my birth date - 1958 - and did a double take. One of the nicest compliments i ever had.

                                                                    1. re: pasuga

                                                                      ha I got told at Beale's I wouldn't qualify for the over 50 discount days - I am 54. But actually I do object to being carded for cigarettes and alcohol. Cigarettes you have to be over 18 to buy and alcohol is 21yo. I clearly look older than both. It's asinine to be carding my age group in my opinion.

                                                              2. Oh, please, totally unnecessary drama over a policy that's becoming increasingly more popular in the industry, particularly in chains.

                                                                1 Reply
                                                                1. re: MandalayVA

                                                                  Seriously. I wish this is all I had in life to complain about.

                                                                  Look, lady, any time you want to buy alcohol, you should be prepared to show ID.

                                                                2. As someone who not so longer worked the door at a bar I can say that there are people who are 25 who think they are "too old to be carded".

                                                                  I really don't see the big drama. You take out your ID present it to the person who requested it and get on with your life. It takes seconds and it's not personal. For a chain like Buffalo Wild Wings it's corporate policy to ID everyone, for me it was just easier so I wouldn't hear, "why do I have to be ID'ed you didn't ID the person that came in before me."

                                                                  1. Maybe the lighting was dim? (You are, of course, over-reacting.)

                                                                    1. What's the big deal? Demeaning and insulting? Take a chill pill. In some places, they have to slide a license through that shows valid age for certain purchases--I've had it happen for liquor and cigarettes. (Though we still do live in a country, thank goodness, where you don't have to carry your papers, ID for alcohol is something to keep in mind.)

                                                                      1. Just don't order adult beverages. You'll save some money and will feel good.

                                                                        In this litigious society, having a consistent policy is how a nationwide chain can stay in business.

                                                                        1. My local SuperTarget cards everyone who buys beer or wine, which I find amusing given I'm 49.

                                                                          I don't mind it, when I was in my teens I liked drinking as much as anyone but now I would prefer that they not sell alcohol to underage people.

                                                                          1. next week you will probably be complaining that someone did NOT card you. How dare they assume you are over 21!!!

                                                                            If I owned a restaurant I would have the same policy. I wouldn't stake my liquor license on the judgement of a server/bartender as to the age of someone.

                                                                            3 Replies
                                                                            1. re: Fowler

                                                                              For a year Indiana's law was to card virtually every customer regardless of age when buying retail. Now its card them if they don't look like they're 40. Which puts it back into the same judgment call as to guessing age.

                                                                              Get used to it. This is going to get a lot worse across the country.

                                                                              1. re: HoosierFoodie

                                                                                I thought it was still the law in Indiana for everyone to be carded at liquor stores? I still show ID with every purchase of alcohol. My understanding was that the cashiers need to enter in your birth year into the transaction details.

                                                                                1. re: huiray

                                                                                  The law changed as of 1 July, but some stores have decided to continue carding everyone for liquor purchases. Restaurants and bars were never required to card every purchasing a drink, just those who appeared to be younger than 27, I believe.

                                                                            2. here is the is 18+ and what i find annoying is when someone at the liquor store who is obviously in their mid twenties gets carded and if they have a friend with them the friend has to present id too

                                                                              1 Reply
                                                                              1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                Yes, an annoying "law" in some areas.... but still a law....lots of stupid liquor laws out there....

                                                                              2. Ah, yes, the nanny state.

                                                                                1. LOL! You were willing to eat chain restaurant food and are upset they carded you? When I eat in chains (happens to all of us at some point), my expectations are so low that I'm just thankful when I taste something that isn't oversalted, underseasoned, overcooked, or drowning in Sysco sauce from a can.

                                                                                  1. Are you kidding? I was carded at the grocery store a few weeks ago. I wrote the checkout girl into my will.

                                                                                    Seriously, I think you're kind of overreacting to this. There is a law in my state that requires carding in certain circumstances. Maybe by carding you the server will remember to card somebody underage who's trying to get away with it.

                                                                                    2 Replies
                                                                                    1. re: jmckee

                                                                                      "I was carded at the grocery store a few weeks ago. I wrote the checkout girl into my will."

                                                                                      May *I* see your ID please?

                                                                                      1. re: Fowler

                                                                                        Sorry. Left it all to the checkout girl. Only because I thought if I tried to kiss her I'd get in trouble.

                                                                                    2. The "card everyone" policy makes it a lot harder for an underage person to slip through the cracks because a server simply forgot to card them if it's not a routine thing. That underage person could be undercover as well, leading to huge fines for both the restaurant and the server. Or, if not, it's just a lawsuit waiting to happen.

                                                                                      What's the big deal with taking 5 seconds to grab your purse or wallet out and flash some ID. Get of your high horse. I don't see how it is demeaning or insulting at all... what are they insinuating by asking for your ID?

                                                                                      1. Waitress is required to check ID. Valid ID is required by law. She asks to see your ID. You produce ID. I fail to see how anything in this scenario is demeaning or insulting.

                                                                                        I guess you don't travel much? I'm definitely over 21, and my ID has been checked almost every time I've been out (MD, DC, VA) recently.

                                                                                        1. while I agree with all who say that if it's company policy, it's company policy, I have to say I have *never* been carded ordering wine in a fine dining place, and to tell the truth I'd be taken aback if I was (I'm 50). In fact we had the opposite occur recently at a restaurant we went to with our (just) 18 daughter, who looks exactly her age. They simply asked "two glasses or three". Because we were recently in Europe where she was assumed to be drinking wine with us (as was her younger brother) and we had begun sharing with her, we said three and shared a bit with her. So there does seem to be a difference depending on the venue.

                                                                                          30 Replies
                                                                                          1. re: DGresh

                                                                                            I'm actually surprised that the place was willing to break the law. While obviously a fine dining restaurant isn't likely to be busted by the ABC the way a college bar might be, it's still a pretty big risk, given how obsessively litigious our society can be.

                                                                                            1. re: LeoLioness

                                                                                              there is absolutely no way a restaurant can prevent someone from sharing their drink with another person

                                                                                              1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                Of course not. But I am surprised that the restaurant didn't ask for ID when a wineglass was requested for the teenager, assuming the teenager in question looks her age.

                                                                                                1. re: LeoLioness

                                                                                                  It's legal to serve a minor if they are with their parents in some states. Not sure if it is where you are.

                                                                                                  1. re: twyst

                                                                                                    Ah right, I forgot that is the law in some states. Definitely not the case in Massachusetts, where I am.

                                                                                                    1. re: LeoLioness

                                                                                                      I can't vouch for the accuracy of this table (I've seen similar tables on sites I trust in the past, but can't find them now), but according to this, it is actually legal for minors to be served, with parental consent, in Massachusetts (and 9 other states):


                                                                                                        1. re: invinotheresverde

                                                                                                          Actually, procon.org is a reputable site and organization. They clearly cite all of their sources of information. If you look at the individual state mandates, the site even links to the text of the actual laws.

                                                                                                          1. re: nc213

                                                                                                            It's kind of bizarre. I've been serving alcohol in MA for 15+ years and have been told at every stop along the way that a minor cannot be in posession, regardless of the presence of a parent/guardian. The actual law seems to differ, though. I wonder if it's newly changed? I'm really confused and surprised here...shocked, actually.

                                                                                                            1. re: invinotheresverde

                                                                                                              Same. I feel like this is definitely something I would have tried to exploit as a teenager, had I known.

                                                                                                              Also, how does one prove guardianship? Can a 20 year old drink if her Sugar Daddy is buying?

                                                                                                              1. re: LeoLioness

                                                                                                                Ask a congressman, or a president of Italy....

                                                                                                                1. re: LeoLioness

                                                                                                                  In Texas, yes, if the sugar daddy has put a ring on her finger (and filed the marriage certificate).

                                                                                                                  Invino, I have no idea how long the law has been on the books. I do think most people assume that the law in any state prohibits underage drinking of all sorts. There's probably a lack of awareness on the exceptions all around.

                                                                                                                  1. re: debbiel

                                                                                                                    I've received my information from both corporate and non, big businesses and small, liquor stores, restaurants and bars. It's not from assumption.

                                                                                                                    Upon further investigation, MA Chapter 138 Section 34A says no minor may purchase alcohol or have it purchased for him. I'm interpereting 34C to let parents off the hook if their minor children are riding in the car with them and alcohol is present. It doesn't specifically allow minors to imbibe.

                                                                                                                    1. re: invinotheresverde

                                                                                                                      Should say, "...car with them and alcohol is present, for example". Can't edit on my iPhone.

                                                                                                                      1. re: invinotheresverde

                                                                                                                        I wasn't saying anything about you making an assumption. When I said most people I meant people in general. I really think most people don't understand that drinking laws vary state by state and that there are many exceptions to the 21 and over law. As for the MA law, I sure don't know. When I read the text, I could see how it could be interpreted either way.

                                                                                                              2. re: invinotheresverde

                                                                                                                the link may be total garbage, but i know in Texas it's legal to drink with your parents

                                                                                                            2. re: twyst

                                                                                                              I'm in NY-- and I definately wouldn't have asked for a glass. He offered three, we accepted, and we did the pouring for her.

                                                                                                              1. re: DGresh

                                                                                                                So... you were okay with both you and your daughter breaking the law?

                                                                                                                1. re: LeoLioness

                                                                                                                  it isn't breaking the law.

                                                                                                                  Section 65-c.2.(b)of Article 5 of New York State’s Alcohol Beverage Control Laws:
                                                                                                                  § 65-c. 2. A person under the age of twenty-one years may possess any alcoholic beverage with intent to consume if the alcoholic beverage is given: (b)to the person under twenty-one years of age by that person’s parent or guardian.

                                                                                                                  1. re: DGresh

                                                                                                                    Oh, sorry! For some reason I thought that wasn't the law in NY. I apologize for jumping to a (rather harsh) conclusion.

                                                                                                                    1. re: DGresh

                                                                                                                      I'm in New York - I did not know that!
                                                                                                                      Very interesting.
                                                                                                                      My step son was recently over from England, he's 18, and is well into enjoying a bevie with dinner (they start young over there!!)
                                                                                                                      We did not share our wine with him, as we did not realize this was the case...

                                                                                                                      1. re: NellyNel

                                                                                                                        18 is legal age to drink in England, as well as most of Western Europe.

                                                                                                                        1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                          I know that!
                                                                                                                          (they actually start younger than that though! Totally different culture and attitude toward drinking.....I lived there for some years, and it took me quite a while to adjust to it.

                                                                                                                          1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                            My daughter was offered wine when she was with us in France just about everywhere we went, and she was only 14 at the time. She does look a few years older, though. We let her have the wine, and she decided she didn't like it and wasn't quite ready for it. Sweet sherry is another story, though...

                                                                                                                        2. re: DGresh

                                                                                                                          Some med's contain alchohol. Particularly cough medication. So, it would be unfair to make it a criminal act to give your child something that has been prescribed by a physician. I am certain that this is one of the primary reasons for this law. It could be a slippery slope when there are folks that use this law to allow their kids to drink to excess as opposed to the way that DGresh and her family treat alchohol consumption.

                                                                                                                          Tasting a nice wine at 18 is a treat. It is treated as such and not a means to getting a drunk on. Also, eating while drinking provides a good example of how to drink.

                                                                                                                          Back on topic, I am in my mid 40's and everyone says that I look younger. Well, I went to a local fair and they had that guy that tells folks their age. My hubby say's you will win! Let him guess!! So I did. He got my age exactly... Maybe restaurants should hire him...He could shout, "barker style".. "We got another 62 yr old heading for the door"!..

                                                                                                                          TC, Robin

                                                                                                                          1. re: Robinez

                                                                                                                            I doubt that laws which allow under 21 consumption of alcohol in the presence of or with permission of parents/guardians is to cover for prescribed medicines. I think they are more likely to come from allowing parents to have some say in what kids are allowed to do, to respect family and cultural traditions.

                                                                                                                            I love the idea of the "barker" in lieu of carding! Well, I love it until my age gets barked. :)

                                                                                                                            1. re: debbiel

                                                                                                                              In VA, in the presence of parents, your under 21s will not be served. It's not an optional law....

                                                                                                                              1. re: jeanmarieok

                                                                                                                                I don't understand what you're replying to? I didn't suggest there were optional laws.

                                                                                                          2. my old boss went to court for serving an underage decoy in a "sting"-- she also got shitcanned-- mgmt, not server. people's livelihoods aren't a joke. underage kids will get alcohol any way they can and engage in much riskier behavior including driving. people's lives are at risk, and restaurants and individuals are absolutely liable. getting bent out of shape bc there is an extra step involved when ordering alcohol at a chain? puhleeze.

                                                                                                            establishments that card some patrons but not others can appear to be discriminating against groups-- "hold on, how come you didn't card those white/black people in front of us?" "so you only card asian women here?" "are you carding me because of the way i am dressed?" solution: card everybody. then everyone is on the same page. i worked at a bar/club where the across-the-board policy was such that the regulars would walk up to the doorman w their ids in hand, same as yesterday and the day before: "hi sam," "hi tony, can i see your id?--have a good one." stupid? not to the guy next in line ready to take a carding policy personally. . . and not stupid on the part of the house-- if the cops came in and performed a random id check, everyone would be sure to have their id on them, and there would be no question of compliance, no fines, no arrests, no lq license suspension, no increase in insurance premiums resulting in higher prices. everyone, including the customer, wins. unless the customer forgot their id--bummer, or is actually underage--double bummer. but that's kind of the point, ain't it?

                                                                                                            3 Replies
                                                                                                            1. re: soupkitten

                                                                                                              I worked a beer stand for a non-profit many years ago at the big annual street party in the city where I used to live.

                                                                                                              The next stand (a different non-profit) over got bit in a sting operation, and some folks I knew ended up with $650 fines and a court date, with the threat of a criminal record -- at a time when we were all trying to launch our careers. The non-profit didn't have the money to pay the fines or the legal fees, so these folks got stuck with an enormous bill for volunteering to help out a non-profit organization raise some cash. Most of them got it reduced -- but it was a lot of money, a lot of stress, and a whole lotta hassle. I didn't *have* that kind of cash back then.

                                                                                                              s soon as we got wind of it, we carded EVERYBODY -- it was a little disturbing, but I even carded a guy who looked like Santa Claus -- and when we explained why, they were -- to a person -- understanding and accepting.

                                                                                                              1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                "but I even carded a guy who looked like Santa Claus"

                                                                                                                hee hee - that made me laugh!!!

                                                                                                                "and when we explained why, they were -- to a person -- understanding and accepting."

                                                                                                                ... and that made me smile!

                                                                                                                Thanks for your post

                                                                                                              2. In lawsuit-happy North America, this seems like something that will be standard procedure soon. Up here in Ontario, there was a case in which a real estate company employee was served at a company function. She then left, after numerous attempts to get her to take a cab, and went on to drink at two or more other locations. She then crashed and sued and won a very large amount from her company. It seems that after serving her the first drink, the company was then responsible for her for the rest of the night.

                                                                                                                I took the Smart Serve training that is required to serve alcohol here, the whole course can be summed up by saying that if you serve them and they crash, you're going to be paying for a long time.

                                                                                                                Unless our culture rediscovers the concept of personal responsibility you're either going to have to suck it up and start carrying your id or quit drinking when you're out.

                                                                                                                5 Replies
                                                                                                                1. re: pulguksa

                                                                                                                  can you support that story? sounds like bs... it would be the last bar that's responsible if anything

                                                                                                                  1. re: kpaxonite


                                                                                                                    Seems I was a little off, she only drank at one other place after leaving work.

                                                                                                                    Or maybe I was right, this account mentions about 2 hours of lost time


                                                                                                                    1. re: pulguksa

                                                                                                                      not to mention that the company knew she was too drunk to drive and did nothing to intervene ...

                                                                                                                      (i realize i misread your op and thought she decided to leave the party and took a cab herself to go to a few pubs only to end up driving home)

                                                                                                                      1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                        There were some attempts made. From the first accout, "Her employer was concerned about the amount she had consumed and told Hunt that if she continued to drink he would call her husband to pick her up. Hunt did continue to drink, but the call was never made.

                                                                                                                        Hunt left the office party at quitting time, refusing two offers of rides home, and drove to a nearby pub where she continued to drink with co-workers until around 8 p.m. Again she rejected offers to stay overnight with colleagues rather than drive home in a snowstorm."

                                                                                                                        That still does not absolve her from personal responsibility. I have worked many licenced events and it is impossible to babysit every patron. I have been in all out wrestling matches to take keys from someone who insists on driving while several others walked out while I was occupied. Should I be responsible for all of them too?

                                                                                                                        (posted before i saw your edit, sorry about

                                                                                                                      2. re: pulguksa

                                                                                                                        It always kind of shocks me that people have the nerve to blame everyone but themselves in situations like this....

                                                                                                                  2. With the crackdown on establishments, that serve/sell alcohol, by state and local law enforcement; and the problems with maintaining alcohol license insurance, more and more alcohol vendors are requiring employees to "card" every purchaser of alcohol. I can assure you that it was not to personally "Demean or Insult" you.

                                                                                                                    1. I get carded all the time and always have to have my ID with me..
                                                                                                                      When they ask, their insistent on seeing my ID and I'm so happy that I still got it going on at my age that I ask if I can French Kiss them!
                                                                                                                      I've had to kiss a lot of people..
                                                                                                                      ; )

                                                                                                                      2 Replies
                                                                                                                      1. Demeaning and insulting? How about overreacting. Their policy to card everyone insures they won't serve minors. If you want to purchase alcohol, you should be prepared to show ID every time.

                                                                                                                        1 Reply
                                                                                                                        1. re: invinotheresasister

                                                                                                                          Some people want or like to be offended. Very much an over-reaction.

                                                                                                                        2. i'm 50. i get carded every now and again at a bar or supermarket. I laugh about it.

                                                                                                                          be happy that this is the biggest problem you have to complain about - there are real actual problems in the world, real situations that actually demean people. if this is your beef - celebrate - but bring ID

                                                                                                                          1. The problem is easily solved by lowering the legal drinking age to twelve.

                                                                                                                            9 Replies
                                                                                                                            1. re: beevod

                                                                                                                              or raising it to being on visible life support.

                                                                                                                              1. re: Karl S

                                                                                                                                Husband and I are in late 60's and were carded at Lihue airport (Hawaii) last week. We enjoyed our martinis anyway!

                                                                                                                                1. re: California Sunshine

                                                                                                                                  I guess that common sense in this country is a thing of the past. Carding someone
                                                                                                                                  who clearly looks "mature" is such a waste of everyone's time. I would never go back to a restaurant or bar that carded me (I'm in my mid 50's). If they want to card those 20 and 30-somethings that still look newly hatched, that's ok. All those concerned law officials are probably drooling over the chance of making some extra revenue by fining some place that didn't ask a 70 year old for an ID.

                                                                                                                                  1. re: Maryld

                                                                                                                                    and isn't the fact of the matter that it's not illegal to serve someone without id, it's illegal to serve someone who actually IS underage? Forgive me if I'm wrong; I'm not a lawyer. Isn't that why they use mature-looking 18 year olds on their stings? I mean, could someone really get in trouble (legally-- not with their boss-- I get that) for serving me, a graying 50 year old?

                                                                                                                                    1. re: DGresh

                                                                                                                                      no i dont think restaurants or pubs have to check anyones id but if they serve alcohol to anyone under 21 then they will get in trouble

                                                                                                                                    2. re: Maryld

                                                                                                                                      what exactly is the imposition of being asked to show your driver's license (which you have on your person anyway, if you drove, and likely have it even if you didn't drive)?

                                                                                                                                      How exactly is it an insult?

                                                                                                                                      Why is it a waste of YOUR time to show your driver's license, but it's not a waste of a server/manager/owner's time to show up for court appearances and/or jail time if they get caught selling to underage?

                                                                                                                                      Suck it up and show the card, or don't drink anywhere but your own home.

                                                                                                                                      (and I left 30 in the rear-view mirror a LONG time ago)

                                                                                                                                      1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                        "Suck it up and show the card, or don't drink anywhere but your own home."

                                                                                                                                        But how would you get the liquor in the first place...?

                                                                                                                              2. My mother who is 63, was just carded Saturday when she purchased a bottle of wine. Even better, our cashier had to call a superior to ring her up because he was underage and can't sell alcohol. We just laughed with the store employees. I don't mind being carded it is certainly preferable to being called "Mamm."

                                                                                                                                7 Replies
                                                                                                                                1. re: MissusLisa

                                                                                                                                  minors aren't allowed to sell alcohol ?

                                                                                                                                  1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                    In California they can't ring it up. It has happened many times at grocery stores.

                                                                                                                                    1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                      kpax: not where I am, silly I know, it's not like I'm buying it for the clerk, although I guess the law was written to avoid the clerk selling to same age friends.

                                                                                                                                        1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                          it was particularly weird back in the dark ages when I was a server -- you had to be 21 to pour (even a draft beer!), and 18 to carry alcohol to the table.

                                                                                                                                          So when there was an under-18 on the schedule, there always had to be someone over 21 on the schedule to pull beers and carry them to the table. I still don't think it makes a lick of sense.

                                                                                                                                          1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                            In Florida, you can sell alcohol as a server in a restaurant at age 18

                                                                                                                                            1. re: ospreycove

                                                                                                                                              In VA also. 18 to serve alcohol. 21 to drink it.

                                                                                                                                        2. I'm 46 and I still get carded a couple times a year. I choose to view it as flattering. Most recent time was a couple months ago, at a local bar. My friend who was already inside saw that I had been stopped at the entrance, and asked me somewhat incredulously if I had been carded. When I said yes, he was insulted (or pretended to be) because they hadn't carded him and he's "only" 38. Personally I have no problem with the card everyone policy; for the reasons others have stated I always carry my i.d. when i leave the house, regardless of whether I'm planning on driving and/or purchasing alcohol.

                                                                                                                                          1. The fact is that the legal sale of alcohol to adults over 21 is ridiculous even here in Montreal its 18 and i think its too high...it creates more of a problem than a service.

                                                                                                                                            1. I don't intend to be someone "piling on" however- you need to consider that establishments serving alcohol should be worried about the law as it applies to their business. Just two citations in my state can shut them down for days. It all varies from state to state in the U.S.

                                                                                                                                              Try not to fault them for attempting to protect themselves in a very litigious environment.

                                                                                                                                              17 Replies
                                                                                                                                              1. re: sedimental

                                                                                                                                                if you can vote at 18 then take a vote of 18-21 year olds and see if they want the law changed. the hypocrisy is ridiculous

                                                                                                                                                1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                  My good friend just opened a bar and I am learning sooooo much about the laws in my state related to alcohol. I am stunned actually. The liability is astounding. Really. Astounding. I had no idea.

                                                                                                                                                  1. re: sedimental

                                                                                                                                                    most people have no idea, or they choose to only think about themselves and their own convenience or ego-- like the folks not wanting their significant others to know how old they are? boggles the mind. how about this-- a 23 yr old pre-med student waitressing to pay for school gets busted for serving a minor and catches a bad bounce in court. a lot of people don't realize her career is over-- she can't ever have access to controlled substances/prescription drugs or work in the medical field. ironically she also can't work as a waitress either, unless she works at a diner or somewhere that doesn't serve alcohol. and she probably has $50k+ in court fees to pay. lame, huh?

                                                                                                                                                    1. re: soupkitten

                                                                                                                                                      I agree that people should consider the consequences others might face, but this is overstating it a good bit isn't it? Do servers actually face these kinds of consequences in many towns? In our town there's a fine of, I think, a few hundred bucks. Charged to the bar, not the server. They do track the servers they catch, but as far as I know the offense is on the bar, not the server. (I suppose this is further justification for the card everyone policy, but I do think it's dumb to card a 50 year old.)

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: debbiel

                                                                                                                                                        In my state, if a bartender gets 2 over-serve citations in a year- their license to serve will be revoked until further notice. That means they cannot work serving liquor. End of career and current income.

                                                                                                                                                        1. re: sedimental

                                                                                                                                                          Okay. And I suppose there might be similar laws here I'm not familiar with, except that I'm pretty sure our state doesn't have licenses to serve. That is of course still different to the consequence bleeding over into another career (medical, as in soupkitchen's comment).

                                                                                                                                                          1. re: debbiel

                                                                                                                                                            I have no idea about that. I am really shocked though at the level of responsibility that our state puts on establishments serving booze. It's as if customers have no responsibility for themselves at all. Really. It is rather appalling, and I had no idea.

                                                                                                                                                            1. re: sedimental

                                                                                                                                                              I have a problem with that too. I do think there should be some responsibility for the bars, particularly in whether or not they stop serving when someone is clealry intoxicated (and no, I don't know where the line is), but responsibility must go both ways. And I have a problem with bars having more serious consequences than the minors who are caught drinking in their establishments.

                                                                                                                                                              1. re: debbiel

                                                                                                                                                                I agree. But get this- in my state, if a server cuts you off because you are clearly drunk, and there is a liquor control investigator there, and they ask THE DRUNK PERSON if they are cut off or not...and the DRUNK PERSON says "no, no one cut me off". The server and bar pays. Even if the drunk doesn't know what the hell he/she is talking about (because they are drunk). True enough.

                                                                                                                                                                1. re: sedimental

                                                                                                                                                                  BS that would NEVER hold up in court

                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                    It is not about court. It is about citations (ie. tickets). Citations shut you down (as a bar owner) or suspend you license to serve (as a server). No BS.

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: sedimental

                                                                                                                                                                      tickets can be contested in court and the drunk party will almost always lose ...and the bar would would probably even be given restitution for lost profits

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: sedimental

                                                                                                                                                                        ps ud have to be pretty drunk not to contest a citation like that

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                          While it's possible that a citation might be overturned in court, it's hardly considered a sure thing. And here in California, where the court system just took a $350 million budget cut resulting in massive layoffs and courtrooms closing, it's entirely possible that trying to fight that citation might now take up to 18 months just to get your first hearing. Meanwhile, your income, or that of your business, has been halted. Good luck supporting yourself, not to mention that lawyer, on zero dollars.

                                                                                                                                                                          Liquor laws in the United States are regulated on the state level. In some instances, they are further regulated on the county or municipal level. There is no uniform code. Take a gander at what restaurants in Utah have to deal with:

                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                            You clearly don't understand US liquor control laws. It doesn't work that way. Every state is different. The drunk person doesn't get a citation, the bar or server does. It falls under the category of "over -serving". You don't go to court.

                                                                                                                                                          2. re: soupkitten

                                                                                                                                                            Yup, soupkitten. Well, they have no reason to want to be informed. I don't intend to have a waitress "over-serve" me, get drunk in a bar, give alcohol to minors, drive while under the influence, etc. "Doesn't apply" to me. Most establishments don't post signs that says "control yourself - you idiot- or I will pay for it"

                                                                                                                                                            But, learning a bit about the laws in my state in regards to liability of bar owners....I (tongue in cheek) suggested that she have her patrons blow into a Breathalyzer before serving them more than 2 drinks!!!! Seriously. Bitching about having to show I.D. is petty compared to the consequences of having one of your hired bartenders "make a mistake" in your state. Serious stuff -don't think most folks think about.

                                                                                                                                                        2. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                          And that would change the corporate policy on carding everyone, which is what's being discussed here, how?

                                                                                                                                                      2. I'm only 30 and I haven't gotten carded in a long time. I keep thinking "I guess I really do look over 21 now. *sigh*

                                                                                                                                                        1. Unless everyone, at every table that was served alcohol was carded, I don't see how this policy works. My husband orders wine and I order coffee. He decides not to finish his wine, so I do, but was I carded? A mother and underage daughter go into a restaurant, Mom orders wine, is carded, and goes to the ladies room. Daughter takes a few sips of Mom's wine while she is gone. Someone leaves wine in a bottle and an underage busboy takes the bottle and finishes it off. Even if everyone, regardless of what they are drinking is carded, and something happens to an underage person who claims they got the alcohol from the restaurant anyway, that they slipped thru the cracks somehow, even if they are lying, the restaurant can still be liable, that's just the way the legal system works. So how is carding working? How far can liability go? If I am at business lunch with a client, and the restaurant allows her to drink herself silly, and she causes an accident, am I liable, because i couldn't ask a client (virtually a stranger to me) for her car keys? I may not even know she has a car!
                                                                                                                                                          It's all craziness!

                                                                                                                                                          19 Replies
                                                                                                                                                          1. re: debs20

                                                                                                                                                            Well, actually, the craziness is people drinking so much they get into accidents because of it. Written by someone who loves their liquor but won't drive after having a good amount of it.

                                                                                                                                                            1. re: debs20

                                                                                                                                                              Regarding the mother/daughter scenario. I actually have encountered a similar thing. Two brothers were seated in my section. One ordered a beer and I carded him. The other ordered a soft drink. When the bro with the beer left the table the younger brother started to sip his beer. I walked up to the table and asked him if he had I.D. on him. He said no so removed the beer and told him that he could explain to his brother where his beer went. Big bro was upset and not with me. In the interest of customer relations I did remove the beer from the bill.

                                                                                                                                                              1. re: kimmer1850

                                                                                                                                                                why? your job was to serve beer and check ids which you did. i for one would have been very mad at you - you went beyond the parameters of your job. beer nazi?

                                                                                                                                                                1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                  S/he absolutely did not. S/he did his job exactly the right way. I've had to do the same thing in various restaurants/bars. It's simple: no ID, no booze, no way.

                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: invinotheresverde

                                                                                                                                                                    the id had already been seen- for the person who ordered it- there is absolutely no way to control what happens afterwards....the liability at that point is with the client who purchased the alcohol and gave a sip or glass to someone else.

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                      Not a Bar area. Not in San Diego County.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: Cathy

                                                                                                                                                                        for the record im talking about restaurants

                                                                                                                                                                        there is a reasonable assumption that the person who orders a drink is the person who will be the one drinking it.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                          that is a reasonable assumption. however when one actually witnesses an un-ID's person, who did not order it, in fact drinking it, that presumption no longer applies.

                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                        And the lack of ID had been seen for the person drinking. An establishment can refuse service to anyone for any reason, barring discrimination. They're lucky they weren't tossed.

                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                      That is actually a common sting tactic used by police cadets to bust bars and restaurants. Frankly, my job and the safety of my guests are very important to me and I will always do what I need to do to protect both.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: kimmer1850

                                                                                                                                                                        So if you see a couple with bottle of wine offer there 16 year old daughter a sip from one of their glasses do you take away their bottle and glasses?

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                          I would like to say that a I do see a difference between parents offering a small taste to their child and said child sneaking a drink. For the parents I will point out that local statutes prohibit sharing alcohol with minors and that it could result in fines or other punishment for both restaurant and patron. Usually, the parents see my p.o.v. If there is a problem (and I haven't had one) I would involve a manager.
                                                                                                                                                                          That being said... I believe that alcohol should be introduced to young people in a responsible manner before they are 21.

                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                        I sat on a Jury where the bar owner was fighting the County to reinstate his Liquor License for a sting where an incident similar to this happened.

                                                                                                                                                                        The bar owner lost.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                          um, no -- cogent employee looking to keep her employer from being shut down had there been a law enforcement agent with his eyes open.

                                                                                                                                                                          The older brother is out of the room, so therefore not to blame -- but you can bet your last dollar that if Little Brother had gone out and crashed the car, the alcohol would have shown up on the mandatory test, and the restaurant would have borne the blame for the whole scenario.

                                                                                                                                                                          Go Kimmer.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                                                            i dont know about that.. the restaurant isn't responsible for supervising every patrons drink while they go to the washroom. the restaurant did not serve the younger brother. the young brother illegally obtained alcohol by stealing it from his brother. and the older brother bears no responsibility for leaving alcohol unattended with a minor?

                                                                                                                                                                            if alcohol was bound in the breath of a 16 year old whose parents gave him a few sips of wine at dinner crashed would the restaurant be responsible?

                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: kpaxonite


                                                                                                                                                                              Because we gotta blame somebody else, because jayzus, we can't actually take responsibility for our own actions!


                                                                                                                                                                              Indicates that if a bar hasn't yet been named in a date-rape case, it ain't far behind.

                                                                                                                                                                              (girl goes to bathroom, guy slips something in her drink, girl passes out, etc., etc., etc...and she files suit against the bar for letting it happen)

                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                                                                No, the restaurant did not and presumably would not have served a 16 year old wine; the parents did- something the restaurant reasonably has no control over.

                                                                                                                                                                                In a civil case the "preponderance of the evidence" is the deciding factor. It would be impossible to prove the restaurant knew the intention of the parents.

                                                                                                                                                                                In a criminal case the standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt" and to prove the parents intentions were know to the restaurant is unreasonable.

                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                                  Once the restaurant observes said consumption, it becomes their liability.

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                                    I also was a bartender in a restaurant and on multiple occasions had to go ask for ID from children, siblings, friends, etc of people who bought drinks for them. The laws vary from state to state (which has been stated multiple times in this thread) and in some it is absolutely the restaurant's responsibility to control who consumes alcohol. I dealt with several angry parents who thought it ridiculous that their 17 year old child couldn't have a beer at dinner, but guess what, that's the law.

                                                                                                                                                                                    You may think it's inherently wrong or unreasonable for a bar/restaurant to not allow a minor to drink, but it's the law and it's just not worth the fines/court fees/loss of business when closed/suspended. If a parent wants to have a beer with their underage child I have no problem with it, just do it at home.

                                                                                                                                                                      3. Sounds like the higher-ups at the chain think their employees don't have any judgement. Of course they could be right.

                                                                                                                                                                        1. Lots of places have that policy, although a lot of time it does not last because it becomes a pain to card everyone. But, unless the server was rude, I don't see what the big deal is.

                                                                                                                                                                          About 5 years ago a woman at a market asked for my id. I chuckled and said "really" and removed my hat showing my bald pate. She said, "I guess not".

                                                                                                                                                                          4 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: Shann

                                                                                                                                                                            a number of years ago, I was living in the desert, it was 110 outside, and I really wanted a beer, but we were out. Ran out to the store, but grabbed my then-husband's wallet instead of my own, because he had money (yes, I should have also had my ID to drive, I just forgot. so shoot me). Anyway, got to the store, picked out a six pack, was carded! (I was in my mid-thirties at the time).

                                                                                                                                                                            I was hot and got a bit hot under the collar that the clerk kept insisting 'no ID, no beer'. anyway, finally, in frustration that it was so cursedly hot and I wasn't going to get that beer, I pulled out my husband's ID. Husband happened to be about six years older than me AND was quite bald. His ID photo was recent. I tossed it on the counter and fumed, "if I was under 21 I'd certainly NOT be married to someone this old!".

                                                                                                                                                                            It didn't work. :-)

                                                                                                                                                                            It's been years since the last time I was carded. Perhaps I need to spend more time drinking in airport bars or chain restaurants. :-)

                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: susancinsf

                                                                                                                                                                                Bwaaaa Haaaaaaa................that is soooo something I would do!

                                                                                                                                                                                cute story.

                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: susancinsf

                                                                                                                                                                                  shitty neighborood, age 17 at a place called "Mama Mildred's" (think Lawanda Page's evil cousin) and as we had "forgot" our ID's, she sent someone from behind the bulletproof glass to show her his.

                                                                                                                                                                              2. Carded in your mid 50's? Enjoy it while you can. The next stop on life's train may be cards of condolence to your next of kin.

                                                                                                                                                                                1. To get pissed off because a business is following the law shows a lack of maturity. This is just my opinion, of course.

                                                                                                                                                                                  3 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Leepa

                                                                                                                                                                                    I would not get bent out of shape over being carded as a 50-something, but it does seem to me that this is not a matter of a business following the law. While there are posts here that suggest it is the law in some places to card everyone, that is certainly not the law in most places. The law is to not serve people who are not legally allowed to be served.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't think it is demeaning or insulting to be carded, but I would think it pretty damned silly to card me (in my mid 40s). A server may have difficulty making a judgment about a 30 year old. It is sad to think that servers cannot be trusted to make judgments about 55 year olds.

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: debbiel

                                                                                                                                                                                      It's likely a matter of corporate policy than actual law. "Just use your best judgment" on something that, in some states, can result in a company's money machine (and let's face it, liquor licenses are just that) being taken away from multiple locations, isn't very palatable these days. Also, making the policy uniform instead of selective gets rid of that second restaurant PR nightmare: discrimination accusations.

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: arcanium

                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm not saying I don't understand why there are corporate policies like this. I just (a) find it sad and (b) think it's important to recognize the difference between law and cya policies (no matter how understandable those cya policies are).

                                                                                                                                                                                  2. It would be really interesting to see the work history backgrounds between those who get why a restaurant/bar would have a blanket policy and those who find this unreasonable.

                                                                                                                                                                                    It seems as though many of those who understand the policy have worked in the field, myself included.
                                                                                                                                                                                    I suspect those who find the policy upsetting have not really worked in restaurants or perhaps even retail - both arenas where you deal with every sort in often very brief exchanges under very busy conditions.

                                                                                                                                                                                    10 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: meatn3

                                                                                                                                                                                      Former bartender and bar manager, and briefly held a minority ownership stake in a nightclub. And eternally amazed by people who think that due process or fairness is an inherent or, even an adjunct, component of the ABC penalty and appeal stage.

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: meatn3

                                                                                                                                                                                        This is why the policy exists:
                                                                                                                                                                                        Manager: Be sure to card anyone that looks younger than 30.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Waitress: What if they look like they are younger than 35?
                                                                                                                                                                                        Manager: How much younger than 35,
                                                                                                                                                                                        Manager: Do you mean if they look like like they could be under 21?
                                                                                                                                                                                        Waitress: Well my friend is 40, but people all the time say you look like you are still in college, but i don't think so. I think she looks about 30.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Waitress: Some people that are younger than my friend look 50. Like my little sister. She is younger than me but looks older than me, but she is only 25. Should i card her?
                                                                                                                                                                                        Manager: Let's make it easy. Why don't you just card everybody.

                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: TroyTempest

                                                                                                                                                                                          You made me laugh over my morning coffee, and boy does that dialogue ring true. Thanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: escondido123

                                                                                                                                                                                            glad you liked it.
                                                                                                                                                                                            just to be fair, it could also be a waiter.

                                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: TroyTempest

                                                                                                                                                                                            Too funny, possibly because it's the truth. And, then there are those who are over 40 and think they look under 30 (just look at match.com) and they're likely to be insulted that they weren't carded. Or, can you imagine a table of people all the same age and only certain ones being carded? "I thought you looked under 30 but she, OTOH, looks obviously like she's over 45."

                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: chowser

                                                                                                                                                                                              Out with my sister and rest of family many years ago. I was 27 and got carded, my 29 year old sister did not. She barely spoke to me for the rest of the meal!

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: escondido123

                                                                                                                                                                                                At least she wasn't the younger sister! I went out w/ friends for my 40th birthday and we're all about the same age. I was the only one carded so my scenario wasn't that out of the ordinary. My friends gave me a hard time but at least it was good humored!

                                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: chowser

                                                                                                                                                                                                We have an arrangement with one couple we go out drinking with occasionally. We're all in our 40s. The agreement: If you get carded, you buy the round. Just for shits and giggles.

                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: debbiel

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Good reason to try to look dowdy!;-)

                                                                                                                                                                                          3. Went to a bar recently with my mom and boyfriend, mom and I got carded, I am in my 30’s her in her late 50’s. Boyfriend also in his 30’s and did not get carded, he was the only one upset, LOL!

                                                                                                                                                                                            But really if it’s the restaurant policy, it just is. Same as “no substitutions”, “sharing charges”, etc. You might not like it, but it is their right to enforce an obviously nondiscriminatory policy.

                                                                                                                                                                                            As a former server myself, I enjoyed having to ask everyone for id, it took the guess work and legal ramifications out of my corner.

                                                                                                                                                                                            I have no problem at all being ID’d. In fact I get carded way more now in NY and FL then I ever did pre 21! I smile and whip out that sucker as fast as possible every time. At a baseball game last weekend, I was carded twice by 2 different people for the same beer and didn’t bat an eyelash.

                                                                                                                                                                                            People need to just relax and enjoy themselves, isn’t that why you were out in the first place?

                                                                                                                                                                                            11 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: Asumnuthin

                                                                                                                                                                                              But how can you relax if you dont have id to buy that beer?

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                                                Ah, and therein lies the problem. Many folks don't carry ID with them, whether intentionally or not, and don't care that they don't unless they knew for sure they needed it such as when they were actually driving or catching a plane flight.

                                                                                                                                                                                                There was a long subthread on 'carrying ID on one's person' which has been ripped out and deleted as you may have noticed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                                                  We thought it humorous to be carded at BWW at ages 67 & 70, how provincial!! But assumed this was just provincial Delaware, the First State to sign the papers to become a new country, but the last to implement new systems & proceedures. Why can't it be changed?(asked of the county office where I worked) - because that's the way it's always been done. Allrighty, then!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I remember being thrilled to be carded at just over thirty.......not so much at 67!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Nanzi

                                                                                                                                                                                                    but nobody, nobody has yet offered any input whatsoever on why it's insulting or demeaning to be asked for one's ID at any age.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    A minor inconvenience, I'll buy -- but would someone please tell me why it's such a big hairy deal?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    If you don't have your ID on you, I also don't see how not having a drink is really such a disaster, either...I like to have a glass of wine with my meal, too...but my life won't end if I don't get it for some reason.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm not snarking or pointing fingers...I genuinely don't see why any of this causes such angst!

                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                                                                                      yup...just plan ahead for that drinkie and pack that i.d.!!!!!! NBD.......

                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                                                                                        But do people really get carded at fine restaurants? I've gotten carded at airport sports bars and the like (and I'm graying) but never never at a nice restaurant, going back to when I was about 30 (I was in grad school so fine dining wasn't part of the equation until about then). I'd feel like the mood would be upset to get asked at a white tablecloth restaurant. Don't bite my head off, it just would. (and I'm not saying that a 20 something shouldn't get asked, but past 30?) Fortunately it has never happened.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: DGresh

                                                                                                                                                                                                          That was our MO in college when we were underage. We would dress up and sit at the bar in a fancy restaurant. Never got carded.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: DGresh

                                                                                                                                                                                                            I think the pace of the venue and the experience level of their servers impacts this. At a fine dining establishment the server is interacting with the customers in a more leisurely manner. This allows the server time to get a better read on the table. Fine dining places also are able to hire more experienced servers. Both of these aspects allow for a better chance of accurate judgements being made.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Contrast this with more casual places which hire less experienced staff and give minimal training. The pace at this type place can be rather rushed ( for the server) so much less time to interact with the table enough to get as a good of a read.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Servers lacking in life and restaurant experience may not have adequate understanding of the ramifications of serving an underage person. Most restaurant owners/managers prefer not to leave their financial/legal/professional future in the hands of a harried server who may not have reached a point of being able to make important judgements. Much easier, safer and consistent to have a blanket policy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                                                                                            "I like to have a glass of wine with my meal, too...but my life won't end if I don't get it for some reason."

                                                                                                                                                                                                            That's because you are not an alcoholic. :-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: Fowler

                                                                                                                                                                                                              that's kind of my point -- if it's that much of a BHD, then maybe there are some other factors at play that you should be paying attention to....I think this gets filed under "doth protest too much"

                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I notice that many people justify the policy because of incredibly draconian laws.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm with you, kpaxomite! Maybe we should be reconsidering the draconian laws to begin with. Drinking a bit of beer or wine with your meal should be no big deal. But the current tradition of 21st birthdays (thanks to those draconian laws) involving getting shit drunk and shit sick is just idiotic.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. My sister used to work as a cashier at a small deli in NYC. She didn't or forgot to ask for an ID when a middle aged lady bought a bottle of beer. My sis got handcuffed at the spot by 2 police officers, got put in a police car and was taken to the police station..

                                                                                                                                                                                                        it breaks my heart thinking about this ..how scared and embarrassing she must have felt.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes, there are stupid laws gov't try to enforce.....

                                                                                                                                                                                                        12 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: Monica

                                                                                                                                                                                                          every law creates a new class of criminal.....

                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: Monica

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thats ridiculous...what did they try to charge her with?

                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Apparently, the middle aged lady was 'hired' by police and was sent out to buy beer..while 2 officers were waiting in the car. My sis was suppose to ask for the ID which she didn't.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              The store owner had to pay a huge penalty....

                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: Monica

                                                                                                                                                                                                                is it actually a law in NY that you have to ask everyone for id? where I live you would only get in trouble if the person was actually underage...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Monica's story simply doesn't make any sense (though I'd love to see the section of NY law which would validate her story). kpaxonite is right... what in the world would you charge someone with who is old enough to legally buy a legal product?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Fortunately, it's easy enough to find the NY law restricting alcohol sales.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't see anything in this section of NY law that requires presenting an ID for ID's sake. But they do say that "...presenting identification card apparently issued by a governmental entity..." is a legitimate defense if someone sells alcohol to someone who shouldn't be buying it. (Interesting that this seems to imply fake IDs are a defense against prosecution of this law).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mr Taster

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Mr Taster

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I agree, the story doesn't make sense. They only use old-looking under 21s to do stings. They can't use a clearly middle-aged person, because nothing illegal was done.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: Mr Taster

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      LOL its starting to make me think these were con men shaking down "The store owner [who] had to pay a huge penalty...."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: kpaxonite

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Or this woman was arrested for another reason that she didn't want to disclose to her sister...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: Monica

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      this happened at least 10 yrs ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      They might have hired someone who looked old but was still under age....i have to confirm it with her before i make myself silly on internet, lol..

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      but still, I can't believe they actually hand cuffed an innocent college kid in public...and took her to the police station...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the whole thing was just very shady...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  2. re: Monica

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't get it--was the "middle-aged lady" actually a minor who was made up to look older? Why would she be arrested for selling beer to someone of age?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  3. I'm 52 and I get carded every time I check into a hotel, rent a car, check in for a flight, board a flight, pay with a check, enter a government building or property, and occasionally, when I order a drink. This is the world in which we all live nowadays. It is kind of silly to complain about a trivial and prevasive fact of life such as this. You might as well stand on an overpass and shake your fist at the oncoming traffic.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: flavrmeistr

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      And if one shake ones fist at the oncoming traffic without the benefit of the overpass, that's even more reason to carry ID.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: Veggo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        All this being said, I prefer cash. My point is that many transactions these days require proof of ID, for whatever reason. Might as well accept it.