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Let's talk about sugar. How bad is it? It's probably the most evil thing. You are probably better off taking cocaine everyday

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Was reading about a new raw vegetarian restaurant opening up this month in Philly and came across this quote from an interview with one of the partners. What do my fellow hounds think? Here is the article: http://articles.philly.com/2011-05-19...

  1. Girlfriend needs to get a grip is what I think.

    I'm sorry but some of these people - they can't just make it a personal choice, acknowledge that there are several different roads that lead to good health and just be good with it. There are a hundred other options she could have chosen short of banning cooked food from her diet in order not to be 200 pounds. But, she had to take this relatively extreme route, convince herself that her choice in diets is *supreme* and demonize everything else.

    Sugar is worse than cocaine??? What a DRRRAMA QUEEN. Someone should slap her upside the head and back down with both sides of a gigantic lollipop.

    3 Replies
    1. re: inaplasticcup

      Ha ha ha Inaplasticcup! Love your comments! Here is my take on it. There is a gay pride day in philly on saturday that I might attend. I had a great time at Outfest a couple of years ago with my friend John. Everyone was nice. But once in awhile the group that pushes to make sex with children legal shows up and the rest of the community cringes in horror. It seems like every respectable movement has extremists that are a detriment to their cause. Pogo was one of the sunday comics I used to read. My favorite quote is "we has met the enemy and they is us".

      1. re: givemecarbs

        I understand what you mean. It's usually the most outrageous who like to make the most noise. Only, there aren't any decent and reasonable NAMBLA members, are there? :|

        1. re: inaplasticcup

          No there sure aren't inaplasticcup. But they try to be included in the events run by the gay community. Le sigh. Hope not to see them on sat.

    2. i think she sort of sounds like an idiot. she calls herself a raw foodist but says she's about "80% raw." that's like someone claiming they're 80% vegan - you either are or aren't, there are no percentages involved.

      and she lost all credibility on the sugar issue when she suggested using agave instead. news flash: agave nectar *is* sugar.

      40 Replies
      1. re: goodhealthgourmet

        my fave is when things says the contain evaporated cane juice.

        there's a word for that stuff

        1. re: thew

          Yes Yes we all know that sugar is sugar, but here's the catch. Different sugars are absorbed into the body at substantially different rates. Evaporated cane juice has a glycemic index of 55 where as High Fructose Corn Syrup is around 140. So you ask what's the difference?" foods with a low gycemic index rating absorb into the body more slowly which in turns does not cause a huge blood sugar spike, which in turn means that your body & pancreas do not need to create as much insulin in a short period of time.....

          1. re: brassica2012

            wow, thanks for the thorough explanation....now i know.

            1. re: brassica2012

              What's the source for that 140 number? http://www.glycemicindex.com/ lists GI for prepared foods, things you actually eat, not components. It has entries for glucose, but HFCS is a blend of glucose and fructose (which has a low GI).

              1. re: paulj

                I have a chart listing the glycemic index of most types of sugar, I got it off a web page years ago but cannot find the link to it. Also I did misquote the material, HFCS has an index of 89, it's maltodextrin that's listed as 140. It's said anything above 60 is considered a high glucose food and should be consumed in limited quantities....

              2. re: brassica2012

                but unless you have a condition that a high glycemic index is contraindicated for, it doesnt matter

                1. re: thew

                  I would disagree, in that there are many studies that indicate eating a lot of foods high up on the glycemic index significantly contribute to the development of diabetes among other health issues.....

                  1. re: brassica2012

                    You are behind the times! :) The current fad is to blame fructose for these health issues, not glucose.

                  2. re: thew

                    Eating high glycemic loads is how most people develop metabolic problems.

              3. re: goodhealthgourmet

                He he! Great comments everyone. goodhealthgourmet I have been meaning to learn more about the all or nothing creed for vegetarianism and vegan. A few years ago my friend John told me that he was part vegetarian and I remember feeling a little angry and thinking he was being a hypocrite. I think what I actually said was isn't that like being a little bit pregnant?
                But I've been watching some movies like Simply Raw and Curing Cancer from the Inside Out and wondering if I was wrong to feel that way about these diets. One hard core to the max raw vegan that I've talked to advises eating one cooked meal every two weeks or so you don't become overly sensitive to cooked foods. I've also wondered why vegans who are doing it for health reasons as opposed to animal rights concerns don't eat one animal protein meal a month or so rather than taking supplements. I'm so confused. But if vegans want more converts (do they?) maybe they should ease off on the all or nothing attitude. I'm a total noob just bumbling around here and I don't mean to offend anyone. That is hilarious about the agave nectar. :)

                1. re: givemecarbs

                  you're not offending anyone! as far as *why* people choose to do what they do when it comes to food lifestyles, everyone's got their reasons - as odd or convoluted as some of them may be - and trying to make sense of it can be crazy-making. but i have to say, that comment from your friend about becoming "overly sensitive to cooked food" is bizarre to me.

                  1. re: goodhealthgourmet

                    Maybe it's in line with many raw foodists' thinking that the human body wasn't designed to digest cooked food?

                    1. re: goodhealthgourmet

                      Thanks goodhealthgourmet. I'll have to ask him to explain it better to me. What I think he meant was that if you never eat cooked food ever, and get put in a situation where you have to eat it, your body will react badly. Better to be able to eat cooked food once in awhile with no ill effects. The raw plant based diet sounds like it can be socially isolating.
                      I guess after reading a lot of testimonials and watching some movies I'm in a what if state of mind. What if the movies and testimonials are true? It's kind of a mental exercise for me. If I believed the literature how would I spread the word? Probably not the way the woman in the interview did with her provocative statement about sugar. I guess she means well but oh my gosh. The guy who advises some cooked food and has been pretty hard core raw vegan for a good long while likes to get his point about not eating eggs in a very bizarre way. He says eating an egg is similar to walking up to a pregnant woman and pointing at her belly and asking if he can eat her unborn child. How do you even respond to a statement like that?

                      1. re: givemecarbs

                        Isn't more asking to have one her eggs from her ovaries? The pregnancy thing is more like balut. That would be my response, but then, I have a twisted sense of humour.

                        1. re: Sooeygun

                          L.M.F.A.OOOOOOO... You sick, sick puppy. :)

                          1. re: Sooeygun

                            I'd hand him a jar of beluga caviar.

                          2. re: givemecarbs

                            But when when he eats cooked food, is that like going up to that woman a few years later and asking to BBQ her son? :) (this subthred is pretty gross :)

                            1. re: DCLindsey

                              DCLindsey you are awesome.

                            2. re: givemecarbs

                              By ignoring him because he's an idjit.

                              1. re: mcf

                                well, yeah, but that's not as fun as the rest...

                        2. re: goodhealthgourmet

                          I get a kick when people point to the benefits of "natural" as in the article: "A: Try agave and or stevia [natural sweeteners]." I don't know if stevia is any more natural than sugar...and as pointed out on another thread, salmonella and arsenic are all wholly natural. Does this make them "good" to to eat?

                          As for the 80% vegan thing, I guess we can all class ourselves vegan, raw, or whatever. I would peg myself at 40% vegan/10% raw/40% animal protein/10% empty calories (vino blanco)...

                          1. re: porker

                            Not to mention that stevia is just plain AWFUL tasting. :|

                            1. re: inaplasticcup

                              It's actually pretty good in some situations. We grow it all summer long and it's great muddled in mojitos, lemonade or iced tea.

                              1. re: ferret

                                Oh so you get it directly from the plant? Maybe there's something in the processing that gives it (what to me is) a lingering saccharin aftertaste...

                                1. re: inaplasticcup

                                  It's certain has more herbal notes (although mild) when you use the whole leaf with a surprising level of sweetness.

                                  1. re: inaplasticcup

                                    @inaplasticcup, yes, processing can isolate and pronounce some of the bitter notes, which is why most of the commercial/refined stevia products out there taste nasty.

                                    1. re: goodhealthgourmet

                                      Thanks to both for the information. If I weren't such black thumb, I might try to grow some... :)

                                      1. re: inaplasticcup

                                        If you have outdoor space, it's pretty effortless (okay, you do need to water it, but that's about it). It's pretty tough to kill, assuming it gets water.

                                        I bought it on a whim because Home Depot had it in their herbs section and it grew well all summer long.

                                        1. re: ferret

                                          Well, I'll very soon have a small patio. I can handle watering. Maybe I'll look for a plant. Is the sweetener in the sap of the stems? Leaves?

                                          1. re: inaplasticcup

                                            Leaves. They're mint-leaf size and you can treat them much like mint in that they need to be bruised to release flavor, so they lend themselves to muddling. You won't achieve the same level of sweetness as you will with sugar or other sweeteners but it's perceptible. You can also steep the leaves with tea in hot water.

                              2. re: porker

                                will she describe herself as 80% pregnant when it comes time to raise a family?

                                1. re: porker

                                  Love your user name porker. And your diet. Very sensible. From an outsider's viewpoint I think perfectionism hurts a lot of vegans and raw vegans. It's like they eat one french fry or a bit of cheese and think they blew it so they might as well fall all the way off the wagon. I'm in a seeking stage right now but I have a feeling my diet will end up similar to yours in the end. For one thing I'll be able to socialize easily with non-members of the cult. Have you eliminated dairy if you don't mind me asking?

                                  1. re: givemecarbs

                                    since you ask...i consume most of my dairy in the form of butchered cow....
                                    actually, i never really drank milk (thinking milk is good for baby cows, not necessarily for me) and my fondness for cheese was (and is) rarely exploited. I wont even talk about butter.
                                    I am currently learning (somewhat ignorant of proper nutrition) that skim milk is likely a good source of protein and other good stuff.
                                    Funny how we learn and grow and think we are suddenly superior...me, i try to keep my eating habits to myself - i dont wanna change the world, i just wanna do whats right for me. Nothing against vegans, or rawians, or omnivores, or hi saturated fat, or harry krishnas, or whatever. Wherever you're at, then so be it. In the end, i really think that simple moderation is the key.

                                    1. re: porker

                                      "Nothing against vegans, or rawians, or omnivores, or hi saturated fat, or harry krishnas, or whatever"

                                      Funny to see omnivores in that list--they're about as moderate as you can be.:-)

                                      1. re: porker

                                        Thanks porker, didn't mean to pry but just trying to figure some stuff out. I've been told that whole milk is way better for ya than skim milk because the cream acts as a buffer against the harshness of the cow's milk. Now raw milk, that's really yummy. Haven't had that in awhile but used to be able to get it right from this one farm. It was the honor system too. Those were the days.

                                        1. re: givemecarbs

                                          My mom tells a story of how her brothers used to enjoy skimming into the bucket of hand-milked, fresh, still warm milk - straight from the cow. I kinda shudder at that one....

                                          1. re: givemecarbs

                                            Do your sources elaborate on what they mean by harshness and buffering? Is this something that goes on in the stomach or intestines, or further on in the metabolism? Is this something that applies to everyone, or just to (say) lactose intolerant ones? What are those sources promoting or selling? non-homogenized milk, non-pasturized?

                                          2. re: porker

                                            you eat no vegetable matter?

                                        2. re: porker

                                          You say *empty*, I say *FULL* - of chill, relaxation and often inappropriate giggles...

                                          1. re: inaplasticcup

                                            great way to put it!

                                      2. "What do my fellow hounds think?"

                                        I think she's an idiot.

                                        2 Replies
                                        1. re: twyst

                                          So do I.

                                          1. re: flourgirl

                                            Me, too.

                                        2. I love sugar. Can't enough of it.

                                          And, yeah, the author is probably right that I'd probably feel better taking cocaine, but gosh darn it, cocaine is so much more expensive than sugar.

                                          And then there's that whole jail thing with cocaine ...

                                          I think I'll stick with sugar for now.

                                          4 Replies
                                          1. re: ipsedixit

                                            He he he ipsedixit! Jail is so annoying. Wow I haven't checked back in awhile, I love my fellow chowhounds, what a great response. Food Media and News is my new favorite board. Posting and reading the comments has been like a cool breeze on a stifling hot Philly day in June. I am curious about raw vegan and I'm going to continue looking into it but you all have brought me balance and humor on this topic. Most of the raw vegans I've come in contact with have swallowed the kool aid.

                                            1. re: givemecarbs

                                              I'm happy to say I don't know any raw vegans. I honestly don't think I could deal with such a person. Really. I'm running out of patience for people and their crap as I get older. And there's an awful lot of people out there slinging an awful lot of crap these days.

                                              1. re: flourgirl

                                                He he! So true flourgirl! But it's a strange strange world. In about three weeks or so in Lansdale Pa there will be a rib eating contest entitled Monsters of Pork two. And after that there will be a pie eating contest for kids broken down by age groups. A nice touch. But get this, the pies are being supplied by the vegan bakery in town and (quoting from the newsletter): Pies will be egg, dairy and gluten free so kids with allergies won't be left out. I am in awe over this. Check it out if you don't believe me:
                                                http://www.facebook.com/pages/Smoke-D...

                                                1. re: givemecarbs

                                                  I'll be more in awe if they're tasty!

                                          2. Whenever I come across a person (thankfully always by reading an article and not in real life) I immediately think of my grandparents - all four of them - who consumed meats, carbohydrates, cream, butter, sugar, coffee, alcohol - pretty much every day and all lived to ripe old ages (three of the four lived into their 90s and the fourth one died at 88).

                                            What they did do was to have a sensible, balanced diet with plenty of vegetables and fruits, small portions (by modern day standards), rarely have second helpings and minimal intake of processed/junk food.

                                            1 Reply
                                            1. re: Roland Parker

                                              KEY!
                                              WOW!
                                              I think you hit it, sorry for the drama but I totally agree and most NEVER will get it and that is all.
                                              Even if you are wrong, WHO WANTS TO LIVE THAT LONG???

                                              Barring perhaps seeing an heir make good then I will be done before then. No need in my "living on" in diapers. I'll take my life as it comes thank you very much and I will enjoy fat dripping cuts of meat and products like ZOMG BUTTER... Long after the less fortunate have previously expired. I don't abuse this philosophy but it really is liberating to eat bacon and syrup/butter smothered waffles when some scolding someone who bans such things from their diet is obviously less healthy when put to any kind of test. Absolutism is bad, it's not like a new thing they just came up with, but so many refuse to see health is basically compounded interest.
                                              Answer people's groping for an answer when it's basically a math problem and they will still search for the fountain of youth just like they believe in some kind of Bimini miracle.

                                              In order to make a balance then I just agree. We're going to die anyway and I don't have a crystal ball.

                                            2. Veganism, vegetarianism, raw foodism -- it's all eating disorders. Unless you are told by a MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL not to eat certain foods, if you exhibit these behaviors you are as ill as the worst anorexic.

                                              6 Replies
                                              1. re: jmckee

                                                I myself would have to be mentally ill before I take on veganism or raw foodism. But vegetarianism I can understand from the animal cruelty standpoint...

                                                1. re: jmckee

                                                  That's as extreme a statement as the sugar comment in the article, jmckee. While I agree that raw foodism is a very extreme personal lifestyle choice, which can be alienating socially (perhaps that's part of the allure for some), there are health benefits to each diet, along with shortcomings, which are inherent in any restrictive diet. If you don't like a person's lifestyle choice, choose not to associate with that person. But, if a person chooses not to eat any animal matter for whatever reason, I don't think that qualifies as an eating disorder. I speak from experience as one who has dabbled in vegetarianism, veganism, raw foodism (though not raw veganism). I think that restrictive diets are attractive to those with eating disorders as they give them "legitimate" excuses to avoid eating certain foods and more rules to impose on themselves. I DO NOT think that one automatically goes hand in hand with the other. That is deeply unfair to those who have healthy relationships with food, but simply choose to follow a vegetarian, vegan or even raw lifestyle.

                                                  1. re: jmckee

                                                    Vegetarianism is to anorexia as sugar is to cocaine.

                                                    1. re: jmckee

                                                      if you exhibit these behaviors you are as ill as the worst anorexic.
                                                      ~~~~~~~~~
                                                      that's completely inaccurate, not to mention offensive to anyone who has struggled with a true, clinically diagnosed eating disorder. despite what you may think, anorexics don't CHOOSE their illness any more than cancer patients do.

                                                      1. re: goodhealthgourmet

                                                        I think a lot of that misconception comes out of the fact that a number of young anorexics pretend to be vegans to hide why they aren't eating. This isn't the first time I've heard it leveled against vegans, though vegetarians is a new one...I know plenty of chubby, happy vegetarians!

                                                      2. re: jmckee

                                                        Jmckee, you don't know any anorexics, do you? This is unbelievably offensive. It's one thing to roll your eyes at a dietary style, but please don't minimize legitimate and very sad medical conditions. I wasn't visiting at the hospital last week because the patient was a bad or frivolous person.

                                                      3. Q: What are some of the misconceptions people have about raw eating?

                                                        A: That's it's weird, hard, crunchy, and boring and bland. That they need to have animal protein to live. They don't.

                                                        Uh, yeah, you do need animal protein. You can survive on a "raw" diet but you're not going to thrive. And you say that you eat cooked fish? Hi, last time I checked fish are animals.

                                                        70 Replies
                                                        1. re: MandalayVA

                                                          There was a raw / vegan community on the Big Island of Hawai'i that is now apparently defunct. The members had a long litany of serious health problems that only started to clear up when they began including animal products in their diet.

                                                          It's possible to be healthy eating a vegan diet. It's possible to be healthy eating a raw diet. But a raw vegan diet appears to be a recipe for disaster.

                                                          1. re: alanbarnes

                                                            Something like that is doable in Hawai'i because there's fresh produce available year round. It would be pretty damn hard to be a raw vegan in Minnesota, particularly when a lot proclaim piously that they're saving the earth by eating vegan. Those bananas and carrots have to come from somewhere ...

                                                            1. re: MandalayVA

                                                              See, that's the thing - it isn't even do-able in Hawai'i. These people got seriously sick until they started incorporating animal products into their diets.

                                                              1. re: alanbarnes

                                                                I spent a few months trying to incorporate as much raw in my life as I could stand (I also included sashimi). I wasn't 100% raw, probably more like 70%. I consumed lots of fruits and vegetables and had fun playing with the dehydrator, spiral slicer, blender and food processor. All the raw produce, plus using a raw lip balm that contained bee products, set off a wicked allergen build-up in my system of pollen. I developed an unbelievably itchy rash, my ears and mouth itched and my lips swelled up. No over the counter allergy meds could fan the flames. Eventually, my whole face swelled up and I went to the ER, where they gave me 5 days' worth of Prednisone to essentially knock out my immune system, which worked. That was 3 years ago. I still take Aerius daily to keep seasonal allergies in check. Occasionally, I still get flareups from one food or another, particularly lobster, which is odd, since I am not allergic to shellfish. My allergist calls it Chronic Autoimmune Syndrome. Needless to say, I abandoned the raw living and had to seriously cut back on the fruit intake. I am also careful not to consume any obvious pollen-containing products (fennel pollen, bee pollen, raw honey, etc.). It never occurred to me when I decided to go raw that my seasonal allergies would go berserk. It's certainly interesting that it's a possibility. I will not pass judgement on anyone that chooses vegetarianism, veganism, raw foodism or any other diet, but for me, I have come to realize that the everything in moderation credo is the most sensible for me.

                                                              2. re: MandalayVA

                                                                The whole pious thing is a huge turn off for me. Over and over again the raw vegans I come in contact with preach to the choir. At least that has been my experience. It almost seems like they don't want any new converts. I want to ask the people I know to do some reverse brainstorming and discuss how they can turn off the most number of people and send them screaming in horror back to the waiting arms of Ronald McDonald. I think they would find that they are doing a fine job of it.
                                                                If they really want to save the earth they need to give the animal cruelty a rest for a bit and just stick to the goal of getting people to eat more plant based foods for "selfish" reasons. I think it would work better. Have you seen the before and after picture of the dude who is the partner in the new restaurant? In his before picture he looks happy, like he is laughing out loud at something. Then look at the after picture. Kind of says it all. /sigh.

                                                                1. re: givemecarbs

                                                                  What kills me about the vegan movement is that when people are obviously getting sick they'll tell the person that it's their fault, they must not be doing things right. One of the saddest books I've ever read is "The Vegetarian Myth" by Lierre Keith. She was a vegan for twenty years and she literally destroyed herself. She writes about going to a Chi Gong master because she was in so much physical and mental pain and how horrified he was that she ate no animal products. Afterwards she went to the supermarket and bought a can of tuna. She ate it and cried because ... she felt better. Anyone considering vegetarianism or veganism needs to read this. Note the book's called "The Vegetarian Myth," not "The Vegetarian Lie." It's very well-written despite the occasional patriarchy bash--she's a die-hard feminist--and very eye-opening.

                                                              3. re: alanbarnes

                                                                It's not possible to be healthy eating a vegan diet without supplements, actually. And especially dangerous for children who have developmental problems on it.

                                                                1. re: mcf

                                                                  That is almost correct If you count things like iodized salt and fortified breakfast cereals as "supplements." And it is definitely correct if you lump things like seaweed and nutritional yeast into that category.

                                                                  A balanced vegan diet requires conscious effort to replace nutrients that are hard to find in plant-based foods. Ensuring those nutrients are consumed is important for everybody and absolutely critical for children and pregnant women. But while supplements certainly make that task simpler, it isn't necessary to down a daily pill to stay healthy while avoiding animal products.

                                                                  1. re: alanbarnes

                                                                    Those are supplements, not foods, except for the seaweed.

                                                                    1. re: mcf

                                                                      I supplement my diet with yeast on a regular basis. The problem is that it's in beverage form, and excessive supplementation makes my pants too tight. ;-)

                                                                      1. re: alanbarnes

                                                                        If I were on a vegan diet, I'd have to drink a lot, too. ;-D

                                                                        1. re: mcf

                                                                          Despite my respect for vegans and sXe types, I am neither. Bacon-infused bourbon, anyone?

                                                                    2. re: alanbarnes

                                                                      this is very interesting to me because my boyriend has a 3 year old daughter. He is a vegetarian and has been for over 8 years. Her daughter's mother is actually vegan and they have chosen to raise their child vegan. As i do most i not all of the cooking, i adhere to their decision but i do not think that is the most healthy choice especially for a growing child.
                                                                      i'm a total carnivore and we've had many heated discussions about if we had children whether they would be raised eating meat or not. to that i said, "my kids will grow up eating meat and if they chose later in life to not, then i'll totally support that". needless to say we try not to talk about it. :-)

                                                                      1. re: liveloveat34

                                                                        That is interesting liveloveeat. Kids tend to be a flash point for people's beliefs. You don't need me to tell you that if you don't work this out before you have kids (if you do have them) it's a recipe for eating disorders with every bite of food the child takes laden with great significance. /shudder. Anyone seen this kind of scenario play out in real life? I'd say the child's mental health would be more important than what they eat.

                                                                        1. re: liveloveat34

                                                                          A vegan diet can be "the most healthy choice" for a child. But without awareness and conscious effort on the part of those who are feeding the kid, it won't be. Kids who eat a conventional diet tend to get more than enough protein; it's much more of a challenge when avoiding animal products. And there are micronutrients that are hard to find in plant foods.

                                                                          Vitamin B12 is **critical** for cell development and blood production; every vegan should make sure s/he's getting enough. Monitoring homocysteine levels isn't a bad idea, either. Calcium, iron, iodine, fatty acids, Vitamin A, and other nutrients are also important.

                                                                          Eating a healthy vegan diet isn't easy, but it's entirely possible. It's best accomplished with plenty of independent research and extensive co-operation with reputable medical and dietary professionals.

                                                                          1. re: alanbarnes

                                                                            I would opine that any diet that isn't safe without "plenty of independent research and extensive co-operation with reputable medical and dietary professionals" isn't fit for human health maintenance.

                                                                            1. re: mcf

                                                                              I tend to agree with you, but respect the ethical choices vegans make. It's a tough row to hoe; those who aren't crazy really have the courage of their convictions.

                                                                              1. re: alanbarnes

                                                                                See, you think their choices are ethical. I don't, particularly where children are involved.

                                                                                1. re: mcf

                                                                                  Their choices are ethical - that is, they're based on ethics. Whether you agree with them or not is another question entirely.

                                                                                  The kids subsisting on crappy omnivorous diets far outnumber those being raised on nutritionally incomplete vegan diets. Childhood obesity and juvenile diabetes are huge problems, and it isn't the vegans that are causing them. Does that mean that every parent who allows a kid to have McDonalds or Spaghetti-Os or Pepsi is acting unethically? Of course not.

                                                                                  It is parents' responsibility to provide their their children with balanced diets. It doesn't matter whether that diet is vegetarian, vegan, biodynamic, macrobiotic, kosher, halal, or ital. So long as it permits the kids to thrive, no moral issues are implicated. And it's entirely possible for kids to thrive on a vegan diet. Your assumption to the contrary is flatly inconsistent with well-conducted nutritional research.

                                                                                  Bigotry is bigotry, whether it's directed against people on the basis of their skin color, their religion, or their dietary choices.

                                                                                  1. re: alanbarnes

                                                                                    What makes you think vegans aren't contributing to obesity and diabetes epidemics? BTW, I was discussing type 2, not juvenile diabetes, which is type 1, involving total loss of pancreatic function and makes one dependent on insulin treatment.

                                                                                    I don't think most people, much less most vegans, are very astute about the fine details of nutrition and metabolism, much less the critical roles certain macro and micronutrients play in healthy brain, body and immune development.

                                                                                    All the macro, vegan and vegetarian folks I know and have known over a life time (including my ex, and me for a time) drank the wrong Kool Aid and eat a very VERY high glycemic load.

                                                                                    If it makes you feel good to call me names, go at it, it's not my style. While I believe it's possible for kids to survive on a vegan diet, I don't believe that, for the most part, they do what I consider to be thriving. I guess you may think so without knowing how much better they could be doing if they weren't malnourished.

                                                                                    1. re: mcf

                                                                                      Malnourished? Not according to the American Dietetic Association or the Dietitians of Canada: "Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life-cycle including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence." (Position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada: vegetarian diets, Can J Diet Pract Res. 2003 Summer; 64(2):62-81.) Or the British Dietetic Association: ""There is no evidence that our vegan and vegetarian children in this country suffer impaired development, a spokeswoman for the association said." (Claim That Veggie Diets Unhealthy Dismissed As 'Rubbish', The Guardian, Monday 21 February 2005.)

                                                                                      But it isn't just that vegetarian and vegan diets are non-detrimental, they actually provide health benefits. "In comparison with regular meat eaters, mortality from ischemic heart disease was 20% lower in occasional meat eaters, 34% lower in people who ate fish but not meat, 34% lower in lactoovovegetarians, and 26% lower in vegans. There were no significant differences between vegetarians and nonvegetarians in mortality from cerebrovascular disease, stomach cancer, colorectal cancer, lung cancer, breast cancer, prostate cancer, or all other causes combined." (Timothy, J; et al. Mortality in vegetarians and nonvegetarians: detailed findings from a collaborative analysis of 5 prospective studies, Amer J Clin Nutrition 70 (3): 516S–524S.)

                                                                                      Yes, there are crazy vegans out there. Crazy carnivores, too - ever heard of Owsley Stanley? But you can't paint everybody who makes that choice with the same broad (and woefully uninformed) brush.

                                                                                      1. re: alanbarnes

                                                                                        The ADA is wrong about everything. They advise diabetics to eat hundreds of grams of carbohydrates per day, for example. They are hardly a credible source.

                                                                                        Did you ever hear of the case report of the elderly, mentally ill man who ate nothing but 25 eggs per day for years? Picture of health, because fat and protein are the only two *essential* macronutrients in human nutrition. You don't *have* to be crazy to eat that way, but it helps.

                                                                                        I researched the question about health and mortality a lot years ago. Only ischemic heart attack, but no other risks were lower in vegetarians, and certain cancers are higher, the carb centric ones due to hyperinsulinemia: breast, colon, prostate and ovarian.

                                                                                        But we're about to get our posts deleted by moderators for venturing into science/clinical stuff.

                                                                                        1. re: mcf

                                                                                          I'm glad you've found a diet that works for you. Can't you extent similar courtesy and respect to others? Or are you just switching flavors of Kool-Aid?

                                                                                          1. re: alanbarnes

                                                                                            I'm trying to learn as much as I can about vegan, vegetarian and vegan raw alanbarnes. Also low fat raw and gourmet raw. I'm trying really hard to keep an open mind. Vegans seem very defensive for some reason. There is a vegan bakery in a nearby town and they are doing some exciting things. I'm starting to understand the diet(s) but I'm truly struggling to understand the culture.
                                                                                            I'll give you an example based on my experience, because that is all I have to work with here. It was open mike night at the vegan bakery and some dude sang "Brother Can You Spare Me a Dime?" while he accompanied himself on guitar. I'd never heard the song performed live before and I was transfixed. The guy was really good. The raw vegan people at the table next to me chattered on through the entire performance about environmental issues and stuff and totally ignored the guy. I know this is only an isolated incidence but alan, I am trying to like these people and finding it very hard. Everyone else there showed the performer courtesy and respect. Just sayin'

                                                                                            1. re: givemecarbs

                                                                                              There are extremists of all kinds, rude people of all backgrounds and it's inaccurate to try to pigeonhole people. It's one thing to find out more about vegan or vegetarian diets but trying to learn more and giving examples of rude vegans and vegetarians does nothing more than stereotype others. I know vegans who are wonderful and am good friends with them. I've met vegans I want no part of. Kind of like all people. There isn't a "vegan culture" just as there isn't an "omnivore culture"--there isn't one uniform thought. I've heard people use examples of what you've done w/ the vegans in the bakery with races to justify their racism.

                                                                                              1. re: givemecarbs

                                                                                                But there isn't a monolithic "vegan culture" to understand. People from different backgrounds with different attitudes become vegan for all kinds of different reasons. Seriously, how do you draw a coherent line that encompasses television personality Ellen DeGeneres, Pakistani billionaire Gulu Lalvani, singer-songwriter Erykah Badu, actor Alec Baldwin, Czech supermodel Petra Němcová, and hardcore punk rocker Tim McIlrath?

                                                                                                In my experience, most vegans are pretty well-balanced individuals, but there are plenty of exceptions to the rule. There are those who are overly defensive about their lifestyle (although some of the posts on this thread make that a little more understandable - I'd be defensive too if people routinely accused me of abusing / malnourishing my kids), and others who are outright offensive (think paint-slinging PETA pinheads).

                                                                                                One thing I've noticed is that the vegans I get along with best are those who don't identify themselves solely by their veganism or feel the need to mention it in every conversation. You might be surprised at many people you know are vegan but don't advertise it.

                                                                                                But there's no doubt that there are just as many assholes per capita in the vegan population as in the community at large. Probably more. My question is why you would want to like them? They're assholes. But don't let their behavior color your opinion of all other vegans, either.

                                                                                                1. re: alanbarnes

                                                                                                  Good point about how vegans define themselves alanbarnes. Thank you for that. I'm thinking that the raw vegan diet is so hard to sustain over the long haul that I am meeting the zealots.Have you read this entire thread? I said something early on about the gay version of paint-slinging pinheads. My friend John is gay and he has taught me lots about his take on gay culture. Maybe vegans need a culture. I really wish you would think about that. But thanks again for your thoughtful post, if you have read many of my comments here (I know I post a lot) you might understand where I am coming from in all this. It's summer, it's hot and I am seriously considering going raw vegan for the summer at least to give it a try. But I need some support from people who know the ropes. I've watched the movies and tried to talk about them here on chowhound and some of the things that have happened here have only pushed me further in this direction.
                                                                                                  I'm a gamer and I know that gamers have their own culture. I know the language and how to act and what to expect. If you were to come visit my gaming shop I could give you lots of info on what to expect there. Gamers traditionally eat some of the most unhealthy diets of all. Give me a few years and we'll see. With apologies to PETA there is more than one way to skin a cat. :)
                                                                                                  But this is some serious stuff we are talking about here alanbarnes. Have you seen those movies that shall not be named? The ministry has eyes everywhere you know.

                                                                                                  1. re: givemecarbs

                                                                                                    I would say that there isn't so much a culture, as various communities that, when it comes to vegan/vegetarian/raw, are formed through a shared motivation. From what I have experienced, there is a discernible split between those that come to these lifestyles by way of ethical choices and those who do so for health reasons. And I think you are very possibly correct about the difficulty of this diet weeding out those who don't come to it out of a pretty hardcore anti-cruelty stance.

                                                                                                    If you are motivated by the latter, then you might just need to adjust your search with that criteria in mind. There are many forums for raw vegans online, and maybe (if you haven't tried this already; you seem pretty internet savvy) you could try adjusting your search criteria for a forum that focuses on the health benefits. I found this website that seems somewhat promising (I only peeked at one or two threads): http://goneraw.com/ There are recipes, and a fair amount of nutritional advice.

                                                                                                    There are also Meet Up groups for raw vegans in most metropolitan areas. If you can find one, while it is very possible that the entire group may not share your motivations, you might find *someone* that is knowledgeable, and willing to guide you, instead of 'convert' you. If there isn't a group in your area that suits, you could try starting your own Meet Up, and be able then to frame the 'invitation' to attract those who share your motivation.

                                                                                                    But if you go to a Meet Up, maybe you should use the phrase, "There's more than one way to skin a cucumber." Just in case. ;

                                                                                                    )

                                                                                                    I hope you find what you're looking for. Good luck.

                                                                                                    1. re: onceadaylily

                                                                                                      LOL Thanks onceadaylily! I don't know if I even can be a vegan cuz I love my leather sandals way too much. And jackets and boots.

                                                                                                      1. re: givemecarbs

                                                                                                        I hear ya. I'm an ethically-driven pescetarian, who still occasionally eats fish even though it is likely to give me hives, and who clings steadfastedly to her Harley Davidson boots (they've been grandfathered in). I've gotten flack from both sides of the fence. I do what I can do in the day I'm in, and keep an open mind. Sometimes it's frustrating, being a boot-wearing, sardine-eater, but it would be worse to try to conform to a mold I don't fit in.

                                                                                                        1. re: onceadaylily

                                                                                                          /hug. Sonds fishy to me onceadaylily. :) In your community do they actually want fresh meat? (Sorry I can't resist!) I mean errr new recruits? Around here it seems mostly like group therapy for those who have already drunk deeply of the koolaid. I get frustrated did I mention that? Here is an example. I preregistered to watch one of those films which shall not be named. It was kind of heavy (go figure) but I ended up storming out about twenty minutes in because I couldn't hear any of the words. Could these people possibly shut up for five seconds? Whew that felt good. /breathe deeply. Fast forward to the next day or so when I'm asked how I liked the film.

                                                                                                          1. re: givemecarbs

                                                                                                            Ha. I don't think I *have* a community. :) But I know there are people who choose a plant-based diet for health reasons, but likely tend to keep it on the down low to avoid such polarizing discussions as you've experienced.

                                                                                                            Speaking of venting, you hit the nail on the head. You possibly couldn't hear the film because some individuals were so eager to vent (as a film buff, no matter the occasion, this is very bad form), but that can be true with any group focused on a common goal or interest. Look at our own discussions on here, and the some of the sub-threads that come about. (Regardless, I hope you replied: "The film itself, or the lecture series that drowned it out?")

                                                                                                            There really are many people, like you, who are curious about this path, focusing on the food, and the nutrition, itself, aside from ethics and politics. If you haven't already, you may want to limit your search online to the raw food 'diet', and eliminate the word 'vegan', and see if that don't turn up a whole different perspective, one that doesn't require one to feel compelled to undertake that particular menu for any other reason for which they came.

                                                                                                            (And my boyfriend's ringtone for me is the original Zelda DahDuhDahDah-Dah-Dah-Dah-DAH.)

                                                                                                            1. re: onceadaylily

                                                                                                              That ring tone is the highest compliment that can be bestowed on another entity onceadaylily. Sounds like a keeper.
                                                                                                              I didn't trust myself to respond. That was the reason I stormed out. I could feel some well-chosen words forming and I had to bail faaaast. It was the owner of the cafe that was yakking. His daughter and her SO had parked themselves at the table nearest to the tv and would not be quiet. When the owner came I thought he was gonna ask them nicely to move to a different spot or tone it down. Nah, he just stood there and added to the bedlam. And he was the one who asked a day later too.
                                                                                                              Thanks for the idea I could use a new perspective. But if they really want to save the planet and save animals they have to start convincing people to eat differently. Mentioning animal cruelty over and over is the stick. Talking about how the diet makes you look and feel better is the carrot. Why use the stick at all when the carrot works better? To save animals they need to shut up about animals. Not that hard to see. Starting to make me question what the heck their goals are anyway.

                                                                                                              1. re: onceadaylily

                                                                                                                Now here is what we really need, more of this for sure:
                                                                                                                http://www.chow.com/food-news/83732/v... That dude is awesome!!!

                                                                                                2. re: alanbarnes

                                                                                                  I'm sorry; I thought this could proceed as a secular discussion.

                                                                                              2. re: alanbarnes

                                                                                                I wonder....what distinguishes crazy vegans and crazy carnivores from others who similarly follow a restricted diet and also considers theirs the only way?

                                                                                                1. re: chowser

                                                                                                  For me, the hallmark of crazy people is their refusal to acknowledge generally-accepted facts that don't conform to their worldview. Ever met a biodynamic farmer?

                                                                                                  1. re: alanbarnes

                                                                                                    I don't know if I agree with that though. There have been many many instances throught out history where "generally accepted facts" have later turned out to be not so much. I get what you're saying, but as a blanket statement/rule of thumb, I don't think it really works. And these days, there are lots and lots of people running around who claim that all kinds of stuff is "generally accepted fact" when the "fact" in question hasn't really been proved at all.

                                                                                                    1. re: flourgirl

                                                                                                      +1... belief in "generally accepted facts" is death to scientific thought and inquiry.

                                                                                                      And has had extremely deleterious public health consequences on the more practical side. In fact, it gave cover to infanticidal mothers of alleged "hereditary SIDS babies, injured women for decades of routine RXs of Premarin HRT, for starters.

                                                                                                      The Flat Earth Society should be put to bed by now.

                                                                                                      1. re: flourgirl

                                                                                                        Oh, I agree with you completely. Just because a fact is "generally accepted" doesn't mean it's true. But there's a big difference between setting out to prove the conventional wisdom wrong and refusing to acknowledge that there's some basis for it. When there's a consensus out there, it needs to be acknowledged and defined before being evaluated and potentially disproven.

                                                                                                        A skeptic asks why a fact is generally accepted and questions the assumptions on which that acceptance is based. But only a crackpot dismisses medical findings on the grounds that doctors don't know what they're talking about or disputes a scientific consensus with nothing more than an unfounded claim that scientists are all part of a vast conspiracy.

                                                                                                        1. re: alanbarnes

                                                                                                          "But only a crackpot dismisses medical findings on the grounds that doctors don't know what they're talking about or disputes a scientific consensus because scientists are allegedly part of a vast conspiracy."

                                                                                                          Or a whistleblower. Or a truly independent scientist.

                                                                                                          1. re: mcf

                                                                                                            Wrong.

                                                                                                            Whistleblowers expose misconduct and fraud. Independent scientists use the scientific method to disprove commonly-held assumptions. Neither ignore the conventional wisdom simply because it's inconvenient.

                                                                                                            Crazy people, on the other hand, make pseudoscientific assertions based on flawed reasoning and simply disregard facts that are inconsistent with their warped worldview.

                                                                                                            1. re: alanbarnes

                                                                                                              We'll have to agree to disagree about all the outside influences that have highly inappropriate effects on what science gets done and published. Especially in the highly profitable medical field. Pure science is an oxymoron, for the most part.

                                                                                                        2. re: flourgirl

                                                                                                          I was thinking exactly that flourgirl. /agree

                                                                                                        3. re: alanbarnes

                                                                                                          I think of the extremists as the ones who refuse to believe there might be another view or lifestyle that works for others; and work to disparage other views.

                                                                                                          1. re: chowser

                                                                                                            Agreed.

                                                                                                        4. re: chowser

                                                                                                          For me, it's the zealous prioritization of animal welfare above fellow humans, and how counter to human survival, health and well being it is. Vegans seem, to me, to purport to be above nature and animals rather than just part of the chain.

                                                                                                          As an aside, while this is certainly not universal, I've often noted that zealous animal welfare folks and vegans are often unable to treat fellow humans with nearly as much consideration or comradeship as they accord animals.

                                                                                                          1. re: mcf

                                                                                                            I've noticed that too mcf. Even right here on this thread. Your comments are always polite and respectful.

                                                                                                            1. re: givemecarbs

                                                                                                              Thanks, I try to be. I don't see the point of name calling or personal attack based upon a difference of opinion or view points.

                                                                                          2. re: liveloveat34

                                                                                            An online acquaintance of mine is a vegetarian leaning towards vegan and therefore so are her two kids. The older one's teeth practically rotted out of his head before he was three and now the younger one, a toddler, is showing signs of the same problems. They're constantly coming down with colds and ear infections and they never look like robust, healthy little boys. But the teeth? Bad genetics! The illnesses? The older one picks them up at preschool! Her mother tried to suggest that it might be their diet and my acquaintance immediately wailed that it couldn't be, it was so healthy! Unless it's ovo-lacto (and very heavy on that part) in my opinion raising a child as a vegetarian--or worse, vegan--is borderline child abuse. I say borderline because no good parent sets out to malnourish their child.

                                                                                            1. re: MandalayVA

                                                                                              i will say that the child is often sick. colds, flu, viruses, etc. seems to be at least once a month if not more. i don't remember ever being that sick when i was that age. my parents can vouch for that.

                                                                                              what is the cause for teeth rotting? ironically she has caps on her front teeth because of rotting as well....

                                                                                              1. re: liveloveat34

                                                                                                Vegan diets by nature are astronomically high in carbs. Carbs turn into sugar. What have dentists told us is bad for teeth? Sugar. Kids should NOT be having dental work on baby teeth. Also if you go to a vegetarian/vegan forum look at how many people suddenly develop cavities and gingivitis after going veggie. One of the main reasons I took up a carnivorous diet is that it's very good for your teeth. I used to have to get my teeth cleaned four times a year and still had cavities and horrible gingivitis. Since I changed my diet nearly three years ago I have had no cavities, the gingivitis cleared up and now I can go for cleanings twice a year like a normal person. But vegetarians/vegans will never believe that it's the food and just chant "bad genetics/got it from a kid at school." Poor kids.

                                                                                                1. re: MandalayVA

                                                                                                  When I read the word chant it made me smile Mandalay, good choice. Kids do get aggro from other kids sometimes about diet choices. I can remember one time my best friend being annoyed at me because my mom gave me money to eat a balanced meal and her and my other friend wanted cheesesteaks. For the record, of course I caved. :) And in a world without fast food yet sub shops and pizza joints were the destination of choice for hungry teenagers.

                                                                                                  1. re: MandalayVA

                                                                                                    carbs turn into sugar, which feed tooth decay.

                                                                                                    AND it's pretty tough to maintain the level of calcium needed by growing and developing bones and teeth without dairy.

                                                                                                    If these kids' teeth are falling out, then there's something enormously wrong and mom needs to get off her moral high horse and do what's best for her kids' health, pronto.

                                                                                                    I'm all for defending one's moral ground, but when you're damaging your own population every time you swing your sword, you need to re-evaluate your strategy.

                                                                                                2. re: MandalayVA

                                                                                                  Mandalay I feel for those kids' grandmom. Back in the day macrobiotic diets were the rage and there were many anecdotal reports of macrobiotic kids raiding the fridges of people they visited and leaving teeth marks on the cheese.
                                                                                                  I've also read that some people died from macrobiotic diets because in western countries we tend to store our rice carefully, where people in other countries got some protein from the insects "contaminating" their rice. so they were better off.

                                                                                                  1. re: givemecarbs

                                                                                                    Macrobiotic diets actually include fish. So I think that story you may have read was just a story.

                                                                                                    1. re: Miss Needle

                                                                                                      But the end stage is just rice I thought. My dad was on it for awhile and found it really annoying and isolating.

                                                                                                      1. re: givemecarbs

                                                                                                        People really don't do the last stage anymore (except for maybe a few die-hard zealots). They may go through fasts where they just eat brown rice. But that is just a temporary thing. Standard macrobiotic diet includes fish about 2-3 times a week.

                                                                                                        How long was your dad able to sustain the brown rice diet? I can't imagine ever doing something like that. He has more willpower than I will ever have.

                                                                                                        1. re: Miss Needle

                                                                                                          Maybe about a month or so, but he made many goes at it. He is still around too despite plenty o' drinking and smoking well into middle age. My parents were chowhounds and loved to eat out and travel. I think he ended up using the diet as a kind of purge, sort of like James Bond in the novels where the agents would be send to a spa for a week or two and eat nothing but clear veggie broth. I do remember eating with him and my mom and SO at a hole in the wall chinese place in Trenton and it being very hard on him sitting there with just his brown rice. I can be pretty stubborn, I think I get my willpower from him. That is why I am asking about different lifestyle diets because when I find one that I think is viable I might actually stick to it. Or not. :)

                                                                                                          1. re: givemecarbs

                                                                                                            Glad to hear he's still doing well.

                                                                                                            I do understand where he's coming from. After vacation where I tend to eat really rich, heavy foods on a daily basis, I really look forward to eating some brown rice, steamed tofu and greens with very little seasoning. But I don't think the day will come in my lifetime where my only sustenance is brown rice! I kind of get the idea of only eating brown rice on a spiritual basis. But my body and tastebuds tell me otherwise.

                                                                                                  2. re: MandalayVA

                                                                                                    Parents who fail to provide their children with proper nutrition are abusing and/or neglecting them. It doesn't have to be intentional. I don't care whether the kids are getting a diet that's unhealthy because it comes exclusively from drive-through windows or because it lacks essential nutrients because it has no animal products. It's inexcusable, plain and simple.

                                                                                                    1. re: alanbarnes

                                                                                                      I agree. Becoming a parent is a big responsibilty, and a huge part of that responsibilty is making sure that your kids are getting the proper nutrition.

                                                                                                      1. re: alanbarnes

                                                                                                        Who takes the kids away from them and when? Slippery slope I say. Today it is for all the right reasons and perfectly fine, tomorrow after we both are dead it will be common practice to grab kids for all the wrong reasons. Whatever THEY want and you know if you know human history that it will happen. We are stretching the mold out of shape we still haven't been able to make a new one.

                                                                                                        1. re: On_yun

                                                                                                          Nobody said anything about terminating parental rights, "grab[bing] kids," or anything else that has to do with whatever vast conspiracy you're worried about. If THEY (whoever THEY are) were to remove all the fat and/or diabetic kids in America from their homes, we wouldn't need foster homes, we'd need foster cities.

                                                                                                      2. re: MandalayVA

                                                                                                        Yes, I agree. The vegan family with babies/kids I knew of had a grandmother with ovarian disease (high carb diets will do that), a grandchild who developed Prader Willi (sp?) Syndrome, and a newborn grandkid whose development she despaired over...

                                                                                                      3. re: liveloveat34

                                                                                                        You're a total carnivore?

                                                                                                  3. re: alanbarnes

                                                                                                    It's possible to be healthy eating a vegan diet. It's possible to be healthy eating a raw diet. But a raw vegan diet appears to be a recipe for disaster.
                                                                                                    ____________________________

                                                                                                    Like how spaghetti is good. Ice cream is good. But spaghetti ice cream is, well, not so good.

                                                                                                    1. re: ipsedixit

                                                                                                      Mmmmmm.....spaghetti ice cream.

                                                                                                      1. re: ipsedixit

                                                                                                        Oh yes it is :)

                                                                                                        http://germanfood.about.com/od/desser...

                                                                                                        1. re: ipsedixit

                                                                                                          the side discussion about German ice cream dishes that imitate other foods went here:

                                                                                                          http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/789468

                                                                                                    2. some people with a little bit of knowledge are a dangerous thing....

                                                                                                      "i studied biology in college"
                                                                                                      meaning what ?? she took a few classes?
                                                                                                      so this make her an expert...and able to go around and tell people how to eat?

                                                                                                      3 Replies
                                                                                                      1. re: srsone

                                                                                                        And by *biology* she means *underwater basket weaving*...

                                                                                                        1. re: srsone

                                                                                                          There are a whole lot of people running around these days who believe they are qualified and have the right to tell everyone else how to live. And I am really sick and tired of it.

                                                                                                          1. re: flourgirl

                                                                                                            Is it the internet? The spate of self-help shows on TV? Because I know a number of people who I consider to be obsessed about their diets and who have body image issues and who feel that they must obsess about my diet as well. Drives me bonkers. I don't want to tell them to shut up because I know they struggle with their body image, but, well, shut up!

                                                                                                        2. A relatively recent theory proposes that humans would not have developed as an advanced species were it not for cooked food. This theory is well thought out and to some extent tested. If you read the articles below, it becomes clear why you will lose weight on a raw food diet. Go ahead and stick to raw foods if you want, but you're doing the human race no favor ;)

                                                                                                          http://www.npr.org/templates/story/st...
                                                                                                          http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2010/...

                                                                                                          1. Why, this justs underscores my much-maligned POV that people who follow extreme diets just don't like food very much.

                                                                                                            Well, I'm off to the market to replenish my supply of white sugar, flour, and butter so I can come home and bake some more carbs....

                                                                                                            23 Replies
                                                                                                            1. re: Isolda

                                                                                                              You evil, evil woman. Three of the worst things ever for you. Worse than cocaine, crack and meth - especially when combined!!!

                                                                                                              1. re: inaplasticcup

                                                                                                                When combining what? the coke/meth/crack?

                                                                                                                1. re: porker

                                                                                                                  LOL. NO! I'm talking about the EEVIL cookies Isolda's going to bake with her trifecta of EEVIL ingredients!!!

                                                                                                                  1. re: inaplasticcup

                                                                                                                    OOOH, you are missing some good evil here tonight! I made a fabulous chocolate cream pie with chocolate (yes!), sugar (yessss!), egg yolks (really!) and heavy cream (fat, fat, fat!) And the crust had white flour, butter, vodka, AND salt! Oh, and the topping was WHIPPED CREAM with sugar and vanilla.

                                                                                                                    The dinner was even worse. We had burgers (red meat!) stuffed with cheese and green onions on WHITE buns. Did serve roasted sweet potatoes and salad on the side, but not enough to make anyone, you know, well, healthy.

                                                                                                                    1. re: Isolda

                                                                                                                      Now you're even more EEVIL in my estimation for telling me about it when I can't eat what you made!!! >|

                                                                                                                      But that chocolate cream pie sounds like righteous evil, so I'll let it go.

                                                                                                                      1. re: Isolda

                                                                                                                        Vodka in a pie crust? Really? That sounds ... intriguing. And I don't even like pie all that much.

                                                                                                                        1. re: MandalayVA

                                                                                                                          Vodka (or other liquor - think Calvados for an apple pie) makes a GREAT crust. Water reacts with flour to form gluten strands, which make the crust tough. Alcohol doesn't.

                                                                                                                          After the pie is baked, you can't tell that alcohol was used; it cooks out pretty completely (more so than water, so sogginess is less of a problem). It's just a really good crust.

                                                                                                                          I swiped the idea from Alton Brown (and he no doubt swiped it from somebody else). It works like a charm.

                                                                                                                          1. re: MandalayVA

                                                                                                                            yes...they showed it on ATK..

                                                                                                                            the vodka adds moisture and the alcohol burns off and the vodka doesnt add any flavor /taste
                                                                                                                            makes for a very flaky crust if i remember the ATK episode

                                                                                                                            1. re: srsone

                                                                                                                              Stuff like this is why I love Chowhound!

                                                                                                                              1. re: MandalayVA

                                                                                                                                Hang out on Home Cooking more, we got it goin' on over there.

                                                                                                                                1. re: MandalayVA

                                                                                                                                  What a wonderful rambly conversation we are all involved in here today! Now I want spaghetti ice cream.

                                                                                                                                  1. re: givemecarbs

                                                                                                                                    i wanna get chocolate wasted!!!!!!

                                                                                                                              2. re: MandalayVA

                                                                                                                                And I adore pie, but hate vodka and other hard liquors. However, you cannot taste it or feel its effects at all. I'd feel okay serving this crust to a recovering alcoholic, since the prebaking likely allows the 1/4 cup of vodka to evaporate. I may even try alanbarnes' suggested Calvados in apple pie crust.

                                                                                                                                1. re: Isolda

                                                                                                                                  technically vodka doesnt really have a taste...
                                                                                                                                  with the small amount u are adding...yes the alcohol burns off...u wouldnt even know if vodka was in the crust...

                                                                                                                                  from what i remember of the ATK show about..it adds moisture with out being wet..
                                                                                                                                  u can probably google the episode from ATK ,they explain the food science behind it...

                                                                                                                                  1. re: srsone

                                                                                                                                    Same principle as adding anti-freeze to concrete in the winter. It acts as a lubricant without any chemical interaction, so you have the same textural qualities but there's limited gluten formation (alcohol doesn't react with flour like water does).

                                                                                                                      2. re: Isolda

                                                                                                                        I follow what some believe is an extreme diet because it's very low carb; no starch, no sugars. I control my diabetes this way without drugs and reversed kidney and nerve damage on it. I love good food and I'm a great cook, not only by my own assessment.

                                                                                                                        When I followed very low fat and Ornish years ago (with disastrous results), that was a diet for those who hate food. And other people. And restaurants...

                                                                                                                        1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                          When I followed very low fat and Ornish years ago (with disastrous results), that was a diet for those who hate food.
                                                                                                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~
                                                                                                                          Snackwells, anyone? blech.

                                                                                                                          1. re: goodhealthgourmet

                                                                                                                            Yep. Back then, Ornish wrote that there was nothing harmful about eating sugar, its only sin was being devoid of nutrients, but otherwise, since it had no fat, it was safe for CVD prevention and health maintenance.

                                                                                                                            1. re: goodhealthgourmet

                                                                                                                              I know someone who is following a low fat raw vegan diet. I wish her luck. Sounds masochistic to me.

                                                                                                                              1. re: givemecarbs

                                                                                                                                more like suicidal. forget luck, you should wish her survival. that's just about the LEAST healthful eating lifestyle anyone could adopt. oy.

                                                                                                                                1. re: goodhealthgourmet

                                                                                                                                  Suicidal is right. Way to maximize every potential health risk while making the rest of your life feel not worth living!

                                                                                                                                  1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                    i knew you of all people would agree ;)

                                                                                                                                    1. re: goodhealthgourmet

                                                                                                                                      Betcherass! The only upside of the diet is it probably makes death feel like welcome relief. ;-)

                                                                                                                        2. "Raw food offered a whole new world of exciting recipes, smoothies, drinks and crackers."

                                                                                                                          This is the sentence that is going to leave me smiling all day. I, too, sometimes find the cracker to be a very exciting snack. Sometimes I have to nap after.

                                                                                                                          I also liked how the interviewer asked her if she had taken classes, you know, to learn how *not* to cook things. (And, yes, I got that the interviewer meant more along the lines of nutrition courses, but that wasn't what popped into my head, and I got this image of a frustrated instructor saying, "Put the pan DOWN! For the third time, you don't need that pan! You don't need any pans! Come on, focus!")

                                                                                                                          But, hey, she's gonna save a ton of money on restaurant equipment. Best of luck to her.

                                                                                                                          11 Replies
                                                                                                                          1. re: onceadaylily

                                                                                                                            Not to descend to the silly here, but is a cracker really even a raw food? Or is she really just practicing a cold food diet?

                                                                                                                            1. re: Cachetes

                                                                                                                              Raw food "crackers" generally consist of raw pastes being smeared on a dehydrator. Eg. Flax seed crackers are made by blending soaked flax seeds with some water and dehydrating it. Actually, it doesn't taste that bad.

                                                                                                                              1. re: Miss Needle

                                                                                                                                Aaah, now I see. Thanks for the information!

                                                                                                                                1. re: Miss Needle

                                                                                                                                  that sounds like what my grandmother would feed her bird......

                                                                                                                                  1. re: srsone

                                                                                                                                    ahahahahhahaa - that's what I was going to say!!!!

                                                                                                                              2. re: onceadaylily

                                                                                                                                LOL. Thanks for the morning chuckle, lady. :)

                                                                                                                                1. re: inaplasticcup

                                                                                                                                  ;)

                                                                                                                                2. re: onceadaylily

                                                                                                                                  " I, too, sometimes find the cracker to be a very exciting snack. Sometimes I have to nap after."

                                                                                                                                  ahahahahahahahahahahahahahha!!!! :)

                                                                                                                                  1. re: onceadaylily

                                                                                                                                    Reminds me when a nearby sushi joint caught fire...everyone was asking how it started IN A SUSHI JOINT?

                                                                                                                                    1. re: porker

                                                                                                                                      they left the rice cooker on too long........
                                                                                                                                      the rice is cooked isnt it?

                                                                                                                                      1. re: srsone

                                                                                                                                        Or the eels. Could have been left under the broiler too long.

                                                                                                                                  2. I think she's one of many uneducated people that feel empowered with anything that they "discover" from a (limited) source and is driven to share her newly found knowledge. It's a sad case. At the same time, she ain't the only one, just one of the very extreme.

                                                                                                                                    That said...

                                                                                                                                    Most stuff about nutrition and stuff, we don't know. And, a lot of people, despite the facts, will believe what they believe. There are a lot of topics here that I really wonder why the heck it goes on for so long, when no one has irrefutable evidence one way or the other. Bias just overrides all. An example of a lesser degree is saying an organic vegetable tastes better than a non, just because it's organic. No... Even with my zero-knowledge of gardening and stuff, I know that seeds, soil, temperature, humidity and all the many growing conditions are the big factors. But...

                                                                                                                                    3 Replies
                                                                                                                                    1. re: ediblover

                                                                                                                                      Yup.

                                                                                                                                      1. re: ediblover

                                                                                                                                        thats what i wanted to say, but have a deficiency in choo...................
                                                                                                                                        ahhh, nevermind.

                                                                                                                                        Well said!

                                                                                                                                        1. re: ediblover

                                                                                                                                          My mind's made up; don't confuse me with the facts.

                                                                                                                                        2. As someone who used to do cocaine everyday, I say stick to the sugar.

                                                                                                                                          3 Replies
                                                                                                                                          1. re: donovt

                                                                                                                                            Yup. The sugar always killed my sinuses too.

                                                                                                                                            1. re: donovt

                                                                                                                                              either in moderation is probably ok. too much of either is not.

                                                                                                                                              1. re: thew

                                                                                                                                                Unfortunately, moderation was not my strong suit in those days.

                                                                                                                                            2. I gained the same amount of weight while pg, but lost most of it fairly quickly. I wonder if she nursed? ...The transfer of nutrition from one animal to another is a natural thing ;)

                                                                                                                                              11 Replies
                                                                                                                                              1. re: fara

                                                                                                                                                So what's worse,too much sugar or too much salt??

                                                                                                                                                1. re: petek

                                                                                                                                                  In an otherwise healthy individual you're probably going to see worse effects from too much sugar. My wife oversalts everything and generally salts before tasting. She'll also go out of her way to skip carbs/sugars. Her blood pressure is about 100/60 and she's in pretty exceptional health (late 40's)..

                                                                                                                                                  1. re: ferret

                                                                                                                                                    Agreed. Too much sugar is bad for pretty much anybody. But there seem to be plenty of individuals who can tolerate any reasonable amount of salt and just excrete it with no harm done (there is marginal evidence that excess salt consumption is associated with some degree of increased blood pressure in otherwise healthy individuals, but the evidence is not overwhelming and the supposed effect is not drastic, IMO).

                                                                                                                                                    1. re: cowboyardee

                                                                                                                                                      Good, because I'm more of a salt monster that a sugar fiend.

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: petek

                                                                                                                                                        It varies on an individual basis (some people don't tolerate salt well at all), but you're probably better off that way.

                                                                                                                                                        1. re: cowboyardee

                                                                                                                                                          I don't over do the salt,but I've always been a savory kinda guy + I've cut out a lot of sugar in my diet and have dropped more that 10lbs so far.

                                                                                                                                                  2. re: petek

                                                                                                                                                    Oh, that's an easy one.

                                                                                                                                                    Salt.

                                                                                                                                                    Sugar is still fuel. You can burn off fuel. Too much salt means dehydration and your nervous system goes haywire - You die. But, those are both short term situation. Long term, too much sugar means you stress your pancreas. Too much salt means you stress your kidneys. And, those are just the primary organs and there are a whole lotta other things that get stressed.

                                                                                                                                                    1. re: ediblover

                                                                                                                                                      Sugar is what destroys kidneys, not salt, hence diabetic nephropathy. You don't need any carbs to live and to be healthy, but you'll die without enough salt. How much is enough varies from person to person due to endocrine function, activity level, hydration, etc.

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                        And, you don't need to eat vegetables to be healthy either, since no essential nutrients are vegetable-exclusive. What's the point? It's the equivalent of saying "THIS IS BANNED IN EUROPE!" Well, so are a ton of other things. And, a lot of things allowed there can't be imported. What's the point?

                                                                                                                                                        Also, kidney problems and sugar happens when there are insulin/uptake issues, which would happen at either the pancreas and/or be a sensitivity issue. Kidney issue would follow that as it struggles with the overload.

                                                                                                                                                        1. re: ediblover

                                                                                                                                                          I'm sorry, but I didn't understand a word of that. I don't know what you're referencing.

                                                                                                                                                      2. re: ediblover

                                                                                                                                                        "Too much salt means dehydration and your nervous system goes haywire - You die."

                                                                                                                                                        _____

                                                                                                                                                        Under normal circumstances for a healthy individual who has access to drinking water, this is implausible. No amount of salt that someone would plausibly eat in their diet would cause death by dehydration. I understand what you're getting at - it's why castaways shouldn't drink seawater and why hospitals have to use specific controlled tonicities in IV fluids. But it's not like you could eat a few bags of potato chips, a bunch of pretzels, some lox, and then keel over. A healthy body will compensate with no real harm done.

                                                                                                                                                  3. I think diabetes is mostly genetic, whether that means nurture or not who knows. I handle sugar quite well apparently but it really can't figure in because I lost my sweet tooth along with my baby teeth. I will eat insane amounts at a time but then it's gone and it may be a month or more before my next "binge."

                                                                                                                                                    8 Replies
                                                                                                                                                    1. re: On_yun

                                                                                                                                                      If diabetes were mostly genetic, it wouldn't have changed type 2 from adult onset diabetes to a pediatric disease within one decade of implementation of the grain based, low fat and protein food pyramid. Yes, some families are more susceptible, but it didn't change the whole gene pool that fast!

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                        Are you serious about blaming the USDA pyramid for type 2 diabetes among juveniles? I doubt if the chunky teen with a big gulp in one hand, a double cheese burger in the other, and extra large order of fries between his knees, has even heard of the food pyramid.

                                                                                                                                                        Unless it was one of these pyramids in this Chow article
                                                                                                                                                        http://www.chow.com/food-news/83224/t...

                                                                                                                                                        Another way to put the question is: how many teens and preteens are actually following a grain base, low fat, low protein diet? Has juvenile diabetes and obesity soared among vegetarian teens or among ones indulging in burgers and fries.

                                                                                                                                                        1. re: paulj

                                                                                                                                                          Yes, I'm dead serious. It happened really, really fast, too.

                                                                                                                                                          1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                            oops, I forgot. You, or someone close to you, had a significant health improvement when switching from a high carb diet to a low carb one, right?

                                                                                                                                                            1. re: paulj

                                                                                                                                                              Me and quite a few people in myriad studies. And two of my doctors, in response to my results.

                                                                                                                                                            2. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                              Well, that and the carb-rich diet that followed from modern humans domesticating grain crops in the paleolithic era. Just sayin'

                                                                                                                                                            3. re: paulj

                                                                                                                                                              well they eat a lot of low fat, low protein snacks in the form of crackers, soda, etc. couple that with high sugar, protein, and fat meals eaten because the low nutrient dense carbs are not fillg them up, virtually no fiber or nutrients and I would say that diet makes for some metabolic disorders. i think the PROCESSED food interpretation of the food pyramid is where the problem arises. the more processed, the lower nutrient the food is and a higly processed grain is just a step or two away from pure sugar.

                                                                                                                                                          2. re: On_yun

                                                                                                                                                            diabetes *used to be* mostly genetic in past generations. sadly, in modern society that's no longer true - the majority of cases now result directly from poor nutrition and lifestyle choices.

                                                                                                                                                          3. Sugar is great for stabilizing open wounds on a battlefield. It's also what makes Mexican Coca-Cola better than American Coca-Cola.

                                                                                                                                                            High fructose corn syrup? Now that's a whole other matter.

                                                                                                                                                            1. How does this topic always create such arguments? Can't we just talk about politics and religion?

                                                                                                                                                              :p

                                                                                                                                                              8 Replies
                                                                                                                                                              1. re: Altarbo

                                                                                                                                                                I think arguing is good Altarbo. It keeps chowhound vibrant and interesting. And because chowhounds are awesome in every way, we can have civil stimulating discussions. Sometimes I feel like chowhound is the last stand on the internet where threads don't become total train wrecks but yet everything isn't modded til it has the personality of a filet of fish. It's a nice balance even if right now I am feeling a bit wobbly. So, what do you think? I am interested in your opinion.

                                                                                                                                                                1. re: givemecarbs

                                                                                                                                                                  I think there are different kinds of arguments. We can argue about what the best way to accomplish task x is. At the end of the argument both sides will have a better understanding of how to accomplish task x.

                                                                                                                                                                  I think there are also arguments where we argue about whether it's right or wrong to accomplish task x. I'm not sure that I'm sure what those arguments accomplish. They are still entertaining though.

                                                                                                                                                                  I think I'm going to keep eating mangoes. I peel them with a knife, so if anyone ever gets any crazy ideas about taking my fruit away, they should bring a firearm. (That's how rock, paper, scissors works right? paper<scissors<knife<gun<cleverness)

                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Altarbo

                                                                                                                                                                    Entertainment is good.

                                                                                                                                                                2. re: Altarbo

                                                                                                                                                                  Ah, but not everyone participates in politics or religion. However, everyone eats. At least that's what I used to think. After reading this discussion, I'm not so sure...

                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Isolda

                                                                                                                                                                    Everyone participates in politics whether they like it or not. Our lives are controlled by politicians and the decisions that they make every single day. There is almost no way to "opt out."

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: flourgirl

                                                                                                                                                                      Right on flourgirl. Just try to opt out of politics in the workplace and see where it gets ya.

                                                                                                                                                                  2. re: Altarbo

                                                                                                                                                                    I think for too many folks, this *is* religion. Pure belief.

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                                      At the vegan joint I go to they have special times for fellowship.

                                                                                                                                                                  3. Am just strolling thru :) but can't help mentioning couple of things. Firstly, sugar, real cane sugar is a sweet sweet gift of nature! I tried the sugar subs a while ago ... gave me constant headaches .... a life utterly devoid of sugar is not worth it to me, unless diabetes etc gets in the way. To compare it to brain messing cocaine is just stooopid ...As for vegetarianism, it works great for millions of Indians ... I'm one of them and ought to know! While I'm an omnivore, sometimes I go veg totally, which to me means avoiding poultry,meats & fish. This is commonly done here,specially during mourning or among Christians for Lent & the 25 days that lead upto Xmas. Lived in the US a decade and now living there & in India, I feel that the western palate/mind still finds vegetarianism an exotic or kooky thing....? Am I wrong in thinking so?

                                                                                                                                                                    23 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: madmaya

                                                                                                                                                                      It's changing, madmaya, but no, I don't think you're completely wrong. Western culture is very much meat-and-potatoes (or pasta), and any variation from that seems strange and exotic to a lot of people.

                                                                                                                                                                      I was vegetarian (lacto-ovo) while pregnant because meat just didn't taste right and had a strange texture to me. Everyone thought I was loopy and took for themselves the role of obstetrician and dietitian, even though my own doctors said it was fine, as long as I was getting enough protein and B vitamins (I was, and gave birth to a robustly healthy, larger-than-average child). I still have kicks where I'll go several days without eating meat, with no ill effects whatsoever.

                                                                                                                                                                      Vegetarian is quickly becoming more and more common, so is more and more easily accepted. Vegan is still a little "out on the fringe" for most folks -- plus a lot of people don't understand that vegan means no animal products - no milk, no eggs, no honey, no butter. The unfamiliarity thus makes it a little strange to most people...and there's always someone who's afraid and suspicious of that with which they are unfamiliar.

                                                                                                                                                                      In Western Europe, vegetarian is not uncommon at all, although vegans still struggle a bit.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: sunshine842

                                                                                                                                                                        By the way, PETA has a lot of stars on their band wagon so lots of push for animal welfare. However,asking a vegetarian Indian to turn vegan, is pretty hard. The diet is so lacto, milk,yogurt,butter,ghee, to most of them eggs are only acceptable in baked goods or undecipherable ways .... a friend threatens to throw up if I crack an egg in front of her :o Meanwhile,Brahmins(traditionally super veg folk),in West Bengal, consider fish vegetarian .... so go figure! We humans will rationalize any darn thing we want to do ......

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: madmaya

                                                                                                                                                                          So true. Basically I've watched a couple of scary disturbing movies that shall not be named and I keep thinking what if it's true what they are saying? If I actually adopt this lifestyle because of the movies I know that eventually I'll want to talk to others about it. If I do I'll want to do a good job and not turn people running and screaming in the other direction. So far I'm taking notes on what not to do. I'm gonna need more storage space.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: madmaya

                                                                                                                                                                            Some traditional Christian groups, most notably Eastern Orthodox, have fasting periods (like Lent) in which the diet is essentially vegan - no meat, or dairy. No fish except for certain feast days within the larger fasting time. But shell fish are ok. I suspect that is because 2000 years ago in Greece, shellfish were things you could harvest from the seashore much as you would pick herb and roots. They weren't a luxury item, or an animal (in the usual sense), but rather something a hermit living in cave on a rocky seashore would depend on for basic living.

                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: paulj

                                                                                                                                                                              That is fascinating Paul. Thanks I always learn something new from you.

                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: madmaya

                                                                                                                                                                              The premise among certain Hindu sects is that the cow is sacred, and that dairy products are a gift from the gods. If that's your starting point, it makes no sense to reject a divine gift in order to espouse a vegan lifestyle.

                                                                                                                                                                              And it isn't just Bengalis who consider fish to be vegetarian. Seafood isn't meat in the Catholic tradition. And (IMO more significantly) many Rastafarians who espouse a vegan lifestyle consider small fish (under 12") to be acceptable as Ital food.

                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: madmaya

                                                                                                                                                                            Madmaya when my friend was trying vegetarianism and we wanted to eat out Indian food provided our most varied and tasty option. Times are changing and places like Trader Joe's are helping to make vegetarian Indian food more accessible. Just had some of their vegetable samosas from the frozen food section and I have a nice stash of garlic and regular naan in my freezer as well.
                                                                                                                                                                            But I can't say you are wrong about people thinking vegetarianism being kooky, at least in my neck of the woods. When I mention vegetarianism, being careful to be matter of fact and not holier than thou or preachy, I can still feel some people automatically pull away from me. Sometimes I feel like a lost soul doomed to wander on the line between two worlds, not belonging in either. In World of Warcraft terms I feel like a horde player trying to find a place for myself in an alliance town. Leave it to me to put my confusion in gaming terms. :)

                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: madmaya

                                                                                                                                                                              India has the highest rate of diabetes and its complications in the world, last I looked.

                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                                                Doh.

                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                                                  India has 31 million cases of diabetes while the US has 17. Yet India has more than triple the population, 1.1 billion to 310 million. So that's 1 in 20 for the US and 1 in 32 for india.

                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.who.int/diabetes/facts/wor...

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: babette feasts

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.who.int/diabetes/actionnow...

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hardly represents the claimed benefits of vegetarianism above, does it?

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                                                      Less than a third of Indians are vegetarian, so your point isn't exactly clear. What is clear is that the incidence of diabetes in India is far lower than in countries where people eat more meat.

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: alanbarnes

                                                                                                                                                                                        This whole tangent originated in response to another poster's claim about India's vegetarians doing just fine in terms of metabolism/diabetes. In addition, numerous analyses say that the lower prevalence rates reported are due to variations in screening criteria and that Indian DM is the highest and/or most rapidly increasing. And most importantly, those not diagnosed by those criteria have much higher prevalence of markers/conditions of insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome.

                                                                                                                                                                                        http://tinyurl.com/3gz6z8p

                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/...

                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't see the correlation you seem to claim between vegatarianism and diabetes. India and China both have over a billion people, the US has less than 1/3 of that, so diabetes per capita is much higher in the US than in India or China. You can be vegetarian and eat lentils and kale or you can eat pringles and milkshakes.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Looks like the highest raters per capita are Saudi Arabia, Iran, Libya, and New Guinea. What are the diets like there?

                                                                                                                                                                                        In India and China, how does poverty play a role? As China prospers, their demand for meat is ever-increasing, to the point that the resources required to feed all of China with American amounts of meat is a legitimate environmental concern.

                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: babette feasts

                                                                                                                                                                                          Check the citations wrt to issues in calculating prevalence. .

                                                                                                                                                                                          Lentils and kale are better than Pringles nutrient wise, but they still spike my blood glucose all to hell if I eat enough of them to provide nutrition because they're virtually all carbohydrate.

                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                                                            What's true for mcf might not be the case for many others. Your lentils reminds me of the national Egyptian dish, kushar, a mainly vegetarian combination of rice and lentils.

                                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: babette feasts

                                                                                                                                                                                            That's because there **is** no correlation between vegetarianism and diabetes. Or, more precisely, there is an inverse correlation. A vegetarian diet is strongly linked to reduced risk of Type 2 diabetes.

                                                                                                                                                                                            More than 25 years ago, a well-conducted study of 25,000+ adults reported a significantly lower risk of diabetes in vegetarians compared with nonvegetarians. There was a strong relationship between self-reported diabetes and increasing frequency of meat consumption, even after adjustment for body weight, other dietary factors, and physical activity. (Snowdon DA et al., "Does a vegetarian diet reduce the occurrence of diabetes?" Am J Public Health 1985;75:507–512.)

                                                                                                                                                                                            More recently, another study examined a population of approximately 60,000 men and women and found that those following a vegan diet have a diabetes prevalence approximately one third that of nonvegetarians (2.9% vs 7.6%), whereas the lacto-ovo vegetarians, pesco-vegetarians, and semivegetarians had an intermediate diabetes prevalence of 3.2%, 4.8%, and 6.1%, respectively. (Tonstad S et al., "Type of vegetarian diet, body weight, and prevalence of type 2 diabetes" Diabetes Care 2009;32:791–796.)

                                                                                                                                                                                            In other words, the more often you eat meat, the more likely you are to contract Type 2 diabetes. No serious epidemiologist disputes this fact.

                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: alanbarnes

                                                                                                                                                                                              We're working from very different information. By definition, diabetes is elevated blood glucose. Meat does not raise blood glucose at all, nor does fat, in NIDDM diabetics. Only carbs do. Meat does not cause hyperinsulinemia, which is the path to development of type 2, carbs do.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Learning this is how I reversed all the kidney and nerve damage from my long time undiagnosed type 2 diabetesover a decade ago, and how I control my DM without meds after decades.

                                                                                                                                                                                              A vegetarian diet is how I became so severely insulin resistant that I developed severe diabetic complications years ago; reading good scientific literature across many disciplines is how I learned to reverse its progression and damage. I learned to ignore "associations" and "correlations" and unwarranted author conclusions and epidemiology inappropriately extrapolated as clinical medicine and to analyze carefully, after becoming knowledgable about nutrition, metabolims and disease, the actual data, methodology and subject selections.

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                                                                What information are you working from? I am unaware of a single peer-reviewed epidemiological study that shows increased incidence of diabetes among vegans or vegetarians. All the evidence is to the contrary.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Emphasis on "evidence." The facts are clear.

                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: alanbarnes

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Lots of information you clearly haven't had the time nor interest to read. And I've learned to cut bait when I'm wasting my time and going way off into material inappropriate for CH.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                                                                    If there's credible information out there, I'm very interested. No, I don't want to waste my time reading pseudoscientific nonsense written by raving lunatics, but if there are any epidemiological studies published in peer-reviewed scientific journals that show vegetarians and/or vegans are at an increased risk of diabetes, I'd love to read them. Please provide any citations you have.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: alanbarnes

                                                                                                                                                                                                      No. I do that in diabetes and medical groups online.

                                                                                                                                                                                      3. re: mcf

                                                                                                                                                                                        Wrong. Using 2000 figures, the Pacific island nation of Nauru has the world’s highest rate of diabetes, with almost a third of its adult population (30.9%) living with the disease. It is followed by the United Arab Emirates (18.7%); Saudi Arabia (16.8%); Mauritius (16.2%); Bahrain (15.4%); Reunion (15.3%); Kuwait (14.6%); Oman (13.4%); Tonga (13.4%) and Malaysia (11.6%).

                                                                                                                                                                                        There are 17.7 million diabetics among the 281 million residents of the United States; that's 6.3%, and is right in line with the global average of 6.4%. India, on the other hand, has 1.014 billion people and 31.7 cases of diabetes - that's 3.1%, less than half the global average.

                                                                                                                                                                                    2. I'm not sure if Indians are genetically prone to diabetes? We do have tons of very very sweet largely milk based sweets , specially up north. Coupled with affluence, minimal exercise etcwe're heading into the major lifestyle diseases. My Mom & Bro are diabetic now but they are serious serious chilli eaters, known as asbestos mouth (fireproof) :) and don't eat sweets ..so how much does eating sweets lead to the disease? Givemecarbs, I'm lucky enough to enjoy steak in India(it's put down to my western influence) and go veg(American friends nod wisely at my cultural background) win-win !!

                                                                                                                                                                                      1 Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: madmaya

                                                                                                                                                                                        Nice! :)

                                                                                                                                                                                      2. Right. I'm a pastry chef. The neighborhood I work in is relatively heavily populated by crack addicts. I'll stick with the sugar.

                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: babette feasts

                                                                                                                                                                                          Plus I'm guessing the crack doesn't brulee so well... But then again, I've never tried.

                                                                                                                                                                                        2. She sounds like a loser.

                                                                                                                                                                                          DT

                                                                                                                                                                                          1. We've had to remove a number of angry responses from this thread, and the discussion as a whole is increasingly unfriendly. We're going to lock this topic now.