Zuni Cafe roast chicken - if you've made it and liked it is there one you like even better?

[c oliver]

That about says it. I made it again last night and just love it. The golden, crispy skin, the moist bird, the herbs, the ease. I'm not looking for other recipes unless you've made the Zuni one also. Trying to do apples and apples :)

[fldhkybnva]

Just an observation - did your chicken skin turn translucent after a day or 2? Intrigued my scientific curiosity, I'm sure there is some good reason for this.

[fldhkybnva]

Zuni #2 is camped out the fridge for Easter! Just a quick question which also occurred to me last time. Whatever I did last time worked but I thought since we'll probably be making Zuni a lot that I'd ask here about the salting method. Last week we were out of kosher salt so used sea salt instead. This week my kosher salt supply has been revived and so I used that as I prefer it usually. But, how do you get the salt to stick? I have the bird on a sheet pan with a metal rack so that the bottom is not sitting on itself, but do you flip halfway through or does enough salt adhere despite all the grains that fall onto the sheet? Thanks for all your help. C Oliver you have created a Zuni monster I fear.

[c oliver]

HA!!! I just pat the s&p on and don't mess with anymore. It IS easy and good, isn't it? Are you making the bread salad this time? It's wonderfully wonderful. Happy Easter.

[fldhkybnva]

It's the definition of easy and good. The oven has been cleaned and is ready to go - the cleaning set off the smoke alarm though I didn't bother to cover it and it was only for a few minutes or so. I think so, I think it'll be the holiday Easter meal so perhaps I'll go full out for the bread salad. Thanks, and Happy Easter to you as well. I actually picked up 2 chickens since there was a 3 lb and a 2.6 lber so I can save the other for a future Zuni. I don't have much experience with whole chicken but I think it should be OK to just wrap it well and freeze. Can I brine will it defrosts or should I thaw completely first?

[c oliver]

Not sure I understand your last sentence???

[fldhkybnva]

Should I wait until it's thawed to salt and stuff with herbs or can I do it at the same time while the chicken thaws in the fridge (from frozen that is) as both would likely take the same amount of time?

[c oliver]

I don't have an educated opinion on that but I personally would wait to salt as it is a brine and don't know how it would absorb if the flesh is still frozen.

[fldhkybnva]

Aside from general food safety "rules," can you leave a bird to brine for too long? For example, if you salted 2 days ahead of time but didn't end up getting to it for 4 days for whatever reason while that pushes the upper limit of raw food in the fridge would it have any big effect on the result? Clearly, I'd like to make my next zuni chicken but not sure the exact day I'd get to it - it'd be either day 2, 3 but possibly 4 depending on SOs work schedule.

[weezieduzzit]

I would make note of the date on the chicken's package and make sure it was still within that range.

[c oliver]

IIRC (and to tired to look up), she says 1-3 days.
ETA: I don't think a dry brine works the same as a wet one, but I'm willing to be wrong on that.

[fldhkybnva]

Yea, I guess I was pondering the push to 4 days but what's a few hours? :)

[c oliver]

Or two days?

[fldhkybnva]

I meant the time from 3 to 4 days, but yea perhaps I'll wait or try to figure out a good timeline but I definitely would like to make that chicken again this weekend.

[fldhkybnva]

OK, well I've never tried Marcella which seems like the other winner on this thread but count me in the corner of Zuni chicken believers. This is the best roasted chicken I've ever had. Thanks for all the advice. I didn't find the prep or cooking difficult or time-consuming at all. I would make this once a week.

[c oliver]

Oh, goody gumdrops :) Now we need to try that Hazan with two lemons one, huh?

[fldhkybnva]

Indeed, I'm a chicken lover as I mentioned above so I'm willing to try out a few but that Zuni was so good. I did have a few smoke issues primarily when I flipped the first time and the fat poured out of the bird but nothing that a wide open backdoor and vent fan didn't solve and after 5 minutes back in the oven there was no more smoking. I hate chicken skin, well I thought I did but I gobbled that stuff up. Next time, I will have to try with the bread salad. Tonight I served with a simple mushroom pan sauce.

[c oliver]

I've wondered if my lessened smoke is cause I keep a sheet of foil on the shelf below the one I'm roasting on. Just keeps some stuff from dropping down on earlier dishes.

[fldhkybnva]

Did you ever try the Marcella recipe?

[c oliver]

Not yet. We got back in the country exactly a month ago tomorrow and I was really sick. Bad case of bronchitis. A month later I still haven't completely thrown off the cough. So I haven't been doing a huge amount of cooking. Bob's been doing most of the work. But soon :)

[fldhkybnva]

Oh wow, I'm sorry to hear you haven't been feeling well. Hopefully you'll be back on your feet and in the kitchen in no time.

[c oliver]

Thanks. Definitely on the mend. Down to just MucinexDM :)

[foodieX2]

so glad it worked out for you! Don't you love when you find new recipes you love?

[fldhkybnva]

Yea, I now realize that a roast chicken a week is probably a good idea for my chicken-loving household but don't really want to branch out to other recipes. I might do Zuni again this week with a different sauce for some variation. Well, as soon as I clean the oven.

[fldhkybnva]

Any idea how hot is hot enough for the initial plop? Smoking pan?

[c oliver]

Close to smoking. Unlike others I've not found this bird to generate the kind of smoke that's all that bad. YMMV.

[fldhkybnva]

Yea, I just plopped it in the oven and looked around at my rigged smoked detectors and all windows and doors open and chuckled. I'll be sure to report back as your love for this recipe encouraged me to try the Zuni method. My last chicken was OK but nothing I'd make again.

[c oliver]

But, remember, it is JUST a chicken. A damn fine one, IMO, but still a chicken :)

[fldhkybnva]

As someone who eats chicken at least twice a day, just a chicken means a lot to me :)

[jvanderh]

I like slow roasted even better. I usually do high heat until the bird is 100 deg or so, then turn the oven down to 250 until done.

[c oliver]

So you've done the Zuni way?

[jvanderh]

Not in an actual wood burning oven, but yeah, once or twice.

[c oliver]

The recipe doesn't call for a wood burning oven. Guess I'm confused but that's okay.

[jvanderh]

According to something I read, the real Zuni Cafe uses a woodburning oven. I dunno. I've never been there.

[c oliver]

Just did a little google and it appears that they DO use a wood-fired oven. Thanks for the tip. That's on my "pie-in-the-sky-when-I-die" list :)

[jvanderh]

Heck yes! Right in between the outdoor kitchen and the in-ground pool :-)

[fldhkybnva]

Well, my first Zuni roast chicken is resting away in the fridge. It seems to easy to be so fantastic - washed, dried, stuffed with a bunch of herbs, S&P in the fridge. I hope cooking is as simple.

[c oliver]

The herbs are under the skin and not IN the bird, right? Cooking is just as easy. Some friends are coming over next weekend dinner and I'd been considering duck (have one in the freezer) but maybe I'll do chicken what with all this talk :)

[fldhkybnva]

Yup under the skin. I'm going to do a full 2 days for a 3lber. Have you ever served it without the bread salad?

[c oliver]

Many times. The salad is super but the bird can go with anything you'd like.

[fldhkybnva]

Yea, I'm thinking of serving it with collard greens. I just checked on the bird for some odd reason and the skin feels quite moist, is that ok? I used 2 tsps salt for the full bird, not sure if that was enough

[c oliver]

Did you dry it SUPER well with paper towels? She uses about 3/4 t per # of chicken. Here's her exact recipe not someone's 'adaptation.'

http://www.today.com/id/4401342/ns/to...

[fldhkybnva]

Yea, so I think I added enough salt. I thought I dried it pretty well both inside and out but perhaps not. Should I just leave it? i didn't take a good look of course just a peak since it's tucked in the back of the fridge. Thanks for the original.

[c oliver]

I'd just leave it alone. You're fixing it tomorrow, right? If it still looks wet in the morning maybe blot it a bit. This ain't rocket surgery :)

[fldhkybnva]

Yea, tomorrow night. I guess I just assume it's more complicated as everyone complains about "all the details," but it was easy enough to stick some herbs in, salt and plop in the fridge.

[weezieduzzit]

I don't eat bread so we always have it without bread salad... and it's always great.

[fldhkybnva]

Do you have any preferred sides to serve it with? Last week we did a pan sauce with mushrooms which was quite tasty but I'd love any other ideas which are simple so as not to overshadow the chicken.

[fldhkybnva]

It's Zuni chicken night!

[Westy]

In order of preference:

1. Gordon Hamersley's roast chicken and lemon
2. Jeff Smith's Chinese take out (reduce the cooking temp increase duration to reduce scorching). Yeah he was a hack, but this was a keeper.
3. Mist Grill: Maple roast chicken
4. Nigel Slater's basic recpe. I also stuff butter and herbs under skin

[fldhkybnva]

How small is too small for the chicken?

[JudiAU]

It really is an excellent chicken if you buy a "chicken of quality" as Mr. JudiAU likes to say. Pay attention to the size.

The method also completely transformed our Thanksgiving turkey method too.

[moreace01]

I love the Zuni cafe roast chicken. But I've found that I cut corners a lot. Really, at this point, what I love most is the bread salad part. So I actually spatchcock and roast a chicken (cooks faster) that I've left salted overnight in the fridge. And then kind of improvise the bread salad. Anyway...I suppose some day I should make the real recipe again and see if I'm really missing out by cutting back on the directions.

[c oliver]

So my chicken is usually done in about 45 minutes. Do you need it to be done faster than that?

[linguafood]

Perhaps mo is referring to the 2 day prep, not the actual cooking time.

[c oliver]

Good thought. I recently gave it NO time to dry brine and it was still better than I'd done pre-Zuni. Just an fyi.

[linguafood]

Dry skin & meat are key, for sure. My guess is the rest is just the high temp method (which makes for killer smoke in our shittily ventilated kitchen >sigh<), as I've not made the bread salad with it. I know, heresy.

Really, if it weren't for the smoke issue, I'd be roasting at high temp all damn day.

[moreace01]

Alright - I'll clarify - I guess I do it cause it takes seconds to pull the backbone out and the bird cooks more evenly in my oven. I also am a crispy skin person so like to get the most skin as crispy as possible. I have to be careful with high heat roasting cause I live in a tiny condo with no ventilation hood so I often don't get the oven as hot as recommended. This is what works for me. It's just a method I tend to favor for other applications too - cooking the chicken over vegetables, or over bread (see Melissa Clark's chicken with garlic mustard croutons).

Again, what I love most is the bread salad part. And also the idea of the dry brine. I do dry brine to an extent since again...crispy skin - usually overnight if I remember. I definitely favor a "dry brine" over wet - wet brine seems to affect the texture IMO and I don't care for it - plus then you have to make extra careful to get the skin good and dry before sticking in the oven.

[fldhkybnva]

Do you flip twice or just do 30 minutes breast up, 15 minutes breast down? Last time, the breast was a touch dry so I'm not sure if I should give it 5 minutes less. I am using 3 lb chickens.

[c oliver]

I don't have the recipe in front of me but I follow it exactly. If overdone the last time, I'd reduce the first 30 minutes to 25. And check with your thermometer at some point later on.

Maybe this is the time to try that lemon one if you're pressed on the three day thing.

[fldhkybnva]

Nope, it's brining and will be for 3 days and roasted on Sunday which should be perfect for the 3 lb bird. I did 2 days last time and it was fine so I'll see what an added day offers. I have another chicken so pondered the lemon chicken tonight. As you can tell, I really do love chicken.

[emily]

I think the bread salad (with the chicken juices) is the best part.

[Tom P]

I like it very much. But it is difficult to beat the Marcella Hazen 'Chicken and 2 Lemons" recipe. Not only outstanding but extremely easy and perfect every time:

http://cheaphealthygood.blogspot.com/...

[c oliver]

I just saved this. I read about it occasionally and need to fix it. She's one of my all time heroes. Thanks, Tom P.

[Caitlin McGrath]

I'm a fan of the chicken with two lemons, too. I also really recommend squeezing the lemons from the cavity over the carved chicken, which Hazan specifically says not to do because they might squirt everywhere. That's not my experience, but at any rate, just squeeze them with a pair of tongs (they're hot and chickeny, it's not like you're going to use your hands), and it enhances the meal.

[c oliver]

How brave you are to disobey her :)

[Christina D]

+1

When I consider the time and planning for Zuni vs. Marcella in relation to the results, Marcella wins everytime.

[fldhkybnva]

I love Zuni but am really pondering switching it up and trying this Chicken with 2 Lemons. Is it very lemony or is it just a subtle hint?

[Caitlin McGrath]

It's fairly subtle, though as I posted above, I like to remove the lemons from the cavity and squeeze them over the carved chicken, which makes it a much more lemony dish. Up to you, depending on preference.

[c oliver]

It really is okay to have two (or even) more favorite chickens. I have two favorite daughters :)

[fldhkybnva]

Well, yes, my "risk" aversion often gets the best of me.

[foodieX2]

I have made the zuni chicken a few times and while I like it very much I find the 1-3 day prep time is what stops me from loving it and rarely ever making it since it was the "it" thing a few years back. And thank god for Smitten Kitchen for developing a user friendly version of the recipe as the way the original one was written was WAY too long. I think it covered over three pages!

I find that I can get very similar results with Barbara Kafka high heat method in "Roasting". And it allows me to get home after a busy day and have perfectly roasted good sized chicken on the table in an hour or so with no prep.

[fldhkybnva]

Yea, I guess that's my question. Is it the combination of the bread salad and chicken which makes this so great? The crisp skin? As someone who's never had it, what is everyone after with this recipe that's different than a usual herb roasted chicken?

[c oliver]

Tell ya what, why don't you make it one time and report back? I was never particularly happy with roast chicken til I made this.

[c oliver]

The length of the recipe includes the bread salad. The chicken itself is less than an hour. The length of the recipe also includes extremely detailed instructions.

[foodieX2]

I wasn't talking about the cook time I was talking about the length of the written recipe. As the authors of smitten kitchen showed you can clearly get the same results without the excess verbiage.

The zuni chicken may take "less than hour" buts that only because they say to only use very small chickens, ideally 2-3 lbs. In my family there is barely enough to feed us, never mind leftover for salad. Why spend 3 days on Zuni when I get similar, if not better results, with Kafka's method and I can use a chicken that will feed us well with leftovers?

And before anyone get their panties in bunch I am NOT dissing Zuni-it's a perfectly acceptable roasted chicken, especially for those with small appetites and/or families as well as the time to make it. If you haven't made it you should try it at least once.

[fldhkybnva]

So not so spectacular to you that's it worth what you think is much more effort? I guess I'm trying to figure out the spectacularness. I don't doubt it and it's easy enough to roast a chicken to find out but just was interested in any more specific details.

[foodieX2]

Oh, it a really good roast chicken. Skin is crispy and flavorful, meat is moist and with good texture. I am glad I tried it. But to me the effort and the 2-3 day prep is not worth the end results, especially since I don't get the benefits of leftovers.

Honestly think the interest is one of things based on it going "viral". People who ate it at the restaurant raved, they started to try to recreate it at home. It then started to show up on food blogs, got mentioned on TV and online and from there it got a life of its own. Zuni was the IT recipe a few years back and while many people have moved one there are just a many more who will fight you to death if you even dare talk trash about it, LOL

I linked above to Barbara Kafka's high heat method and I find the results are as good, if not better, than Zuni. You get super crispy skin and perfectly cooked meat.

I season my chicken really well with S&P and rosemary. I stick a halved lemon and maybe a quartered onion in the cavity. Pop in the oven and even with 4.0-4.5 lb chicken it is done between 60-90 minutes. Which to me is excellent as I can get home, turn on the oven and get changed. Pop the chicken in the oven and by the time its ready the table is set, the sides are made and my son and I have reconnected after a long day. The next day I have roast chicken for lunch and I can repurpose the rest for another dinner.

The bread salad included in the zuni recipe is pretty good too. Neither my son or husband love it so I rarely make it other than for book club. The girls love it. (and don't tell anyone but a good rotisserie chicken works fine along with salad when I am really busy!)

[fldhkybnva]

Yea I "discovered" it by accident and then the more I researched the more it seemed like the best thing since sliced bread but perhaps it was more of a fever thing. I just couldn't believe the rave reviews I envisioned something akin to crack :)

[foodieX2]

crack chicken, LOL!

I am always tempted to tell some of the zuni zombies "Seriously? Its roast chicken. That's it."

If you like roast chicken you will love this recipe. If you don't I doubt this chicken will turn you into a chicken lover.**

**yes yes, I know many of you hated all chicken until you had zuni and now you have given up on all other methods and it is your favorite food of ALL TIME.

[c oliver]

I can't find birds that small usually so go with under 4# and the cooking time is the same. There's no extra effort other than remembering ? - no small feat at my age. So I I want it for Saturday night dinner, I start it thawing on Tuesday, spend 5 minutes on Weds. s&p-ing it and putting herbs under the skin. In the fridge it goes til Sat. If I'm making the salad a lot of the components I can do hours ahead of time and it all comes together quickly. I think some people are turned off by a physically long recipe and will dismiss it for that reason. I actually appreciate a cookbook author who spells it ALL out. And I've only heard of the Zuni chicken here on CH. I'm not into the media aspect of food much.

Also I will serve a 3-1/2 to 4# bird to 4 people and have leftovers. YMMV.

[foodieX2]

C- I can tell you are fully vested in this recipe. It is obvious that you love it and that it works for *you*. I am happy for you and glad you have found a roast chicken that you so greatly enjoy and brings you such happiness.

Being a busy full time working mom it doesn't work for me to start preparing for a meal on Tuesday that wont be ready until Saturday unless said meal is what I consider superior, which clearly I don't. Zuni is a good chicken but to *me* it is not worth that effort. That does not make your love for it any less so please do not take it personally. If zuni brings you joy I would hope that my disagreeing does not offend you or in any way lessons your enjoyment.

I am also happy that you can feed 4 people with leftovers using a 3.5-4.0 pound chicken but you are right in the fact that "MMDV". This is a perfect example of the variations in appetites. With two hockey players in my home my mileage does vary. I easily need a 4.0-4.5 pound chicken to get two meals for my family of three. Again- this is in no way a reflection on you and your family.

I am not sure about your comment "some people are turned off by a physically long recipe and will dismiss it for that reason." Did anyone say that they didn't make the recipe due to the length? Or was that directed to me since I made reference to the length?

[weezieduzzit]

I solve the "not enough" problem by making 2 at a time. We like leftovers.

[NanH]

I didn't think of it as excess verbiage, I think she was giving details about how it should taste and look. It was more the way you might tell a friend how to cook something if there is no written recipe. It's more like a story than a formula.

I, too, thought, 'Days ahead?' But it's not like you are actually doing anything extra. I take it out of the package, season it and instead of putting in the oven, I put it back in the fridge. There's no real extra time involved. I try to plan my meals in advance, anyway, so that chicken would be in my fridge whether in the package or out of it, two days before I was going to eat it.

The recipe says serves two to four. At the restaurant, it's listed as 'for two'. Obviously, it's not going to work for you in that context.

[fldhkybnva]

I love roasted chicken and plan to give this recipe a shot this weekend. Just a quick question: if I plan to roast on Sunday night, salting it on Friday night is OK and just leave it for 2 days? Is that uncovered?

[jaykayen]

Yep. uncovered to dry out the skin.

[c oliver]

For Zuni, it's loosely covered. I use waxed paper. I don't think the recipe is long AT ALL. Mine are always done in under an hour.

[mamachef]

Apple brine and apple relish in the salad is perfect. And to answer your original query, NO. There's not a better recipe out there.

[NanH]

I love the Zuni chicken. For me, the only downside is my discomfort with the amount of heat combined with the the amount of messing about with the chicken. I have yet to Zuni and not burn myself. Clearly a failing of the cook, not the recipe! I will say my first Zuni was what prompted me to buy those hot pads designed to slide over the pan handle.

That's my winter chicken. In the summer, it's beer can on the grill. I try very hard not to turn on the over in the summer.

[c oliver]

Yes, I have an oven mitt that I really never use except when making this. It stays on it til it's completely cool. I'm pretty sure jfood has done the Z chick on the grill as he hates all the smoke when doing it in the oven.

[NanH]

Mine doesn't smoke??? I have roasted turkey on the grill in the roasting pan, but I don't think I could get the grill hot enough without turning on the flame under the pan to do a Zuni chicken. Then there's the whole flipping part. My grill anyway, would be down to about 200 if I left the lip open for as long as it would take me to flip the bird.

[c oliver]

Here's his technique:

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/607864

[rabaja]

Thanks f0r reminding me I need a last winter chicken!
Warming the place while making dinner is a plus in my casa, this time 0f year, anyway.
0n the menu this week, rain will be here Wednesday.

[gingershelley]

2nd, NanH on beer can chicken in the summer - perfectly juicy with crispy skin when cooked indirectly on my webber grill.

[bushwickgirl]

To echo chower's post, aside from whatever various seasoning methods or ingredients you chose, imo I find that the high heat technique as per Zuni is the best way to roast a chicken.

[ipsedixit]

No, no favorite technique.

My favorite roast chicken depends less on technique or cooking method and more on the type of chicken.

Now when I am making roast chicken at home, I make sure to buy a freshly butchered chicken.

Otherwise, I'm like chowser. I basically "sleep around" when it comes to how to prepare a roast chicken.

[King of Northern Blvd]

Zuni is my favorite but when I don't think ahead to the 3 day brine I do the Keller Roast Chicken. A very simple second option.

[c oliver]

That's a good idea. I do have to plan ahead for the Zuni one which considering my crazy schedule doesn't always work.

[chowser]

No. I've made roast chicken so many different ways, butterflied, different temps (starting high and reducing, staying high, staying at 350), on the grill, beer can and various soda cans, on a grill rotisserie, different pans, etc., etc. and Zuni is my standard. I very rarely get to the point where I decide, "This is it, I don't need to look further" but I have with this. I've varied it somewhat minimally, adding garlic cloves, different herbs but the technique itself, IMO, is unbeatable.

[c oliver]

That could be a HC thread of its own --- the recipes we don't tinker with :)

I've cooked few roast chickens because I've never been impressed with the result. But after so many people praised/ranted about it, I became a believer. I look forward to looking back :) on the day I found the one true chicken religion :) Thanks for weighing in.

[danna]

ditto. sometimes I don't salt far enough in advance, but I always use the Zuni method now.