HOME > Chowhound > Cookware >
What's your latest food quest?
TELL US

pizza stone vs. steel

dacfood Feb 17, 2011 04:20 AM

In this review, http://yhoo.it/dJ7z5Y, of _Modernist Cuisine_, they include a blurb from one of the volumes about using a 1/4 inch thick sheet of steel instead of a pizza stone in your oven (for home cooks). The idea is that steel can compensate for the reality of a home oven's limit of 500 degrees versus a commercial pizza oven that can reach 800+ degrees. Does this make sense? I kind of assume they tested it out and it does work. Assuming that's true, do you really need 1/4 inch steel? That's pretty thick and I'd imagine pretty heavy. I'd also guess it would be expensive to get a metal fabricator to custom cut a steel sheet to fit your oven. I saw one web site that offered a 2x2 foot 1/4 inch stainless steel plate for about $245 (not including shipping, tax, or other possible charges). I'm also wondering if there are any food safety issues - I'm guessing not as there are plenty of stainless cookware sets but those were made for cooking/food.

Any comments or knowledge out there?

Thanks.

  1. u
    Uncle Luigi Feb 17, 2011 04:27 AM

    Never heard of it, thanks for sharing. I do know that many use a pizza skillet type of a thing. Mario Batali sells one, that might be worth a try.

    I am a home pizza cook that likes thin and crispy pizza. I used to use a stone, but realistically it has to be in for an hour before cooking. I also don't have an external vented fan, so the cornmeal I used to get it on the stone would burn and smoke up my kitchen.

    For the aforementioned reasons, I now use parchment paper. It is the easiest thing in the world and yields really crisp crust.

    Luigi

    2 Replies
    1. re: Uncle Luigi
      dacfood Feb 17, 2011 04:47 AM

      I currently use a stone and I usually preheat for at least 45 minutes. I use parchment paper because it's less messy; I have a great outdoor vented fan so smoke is never an issue. This concept intrigued me because I'd like to follow Jeff Varasano's (http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm) instructions as closely as I can. He takes the step of disabling his oven lock so he can use the "clean" feature to get to 800+ degrees with his home oven. I don't want to do that and this sounds like a potential alternative.

      1. re: dacfood
        l
        lulou23 Feb 28, 2011 12:05 PM

        Do you use the parchment paper alone or on the stone? what temp is your oven?

    2. tommy Feb 17, 2011 07:34 AM

      The average pizza place is running their ovens at 500-550 degrees.

      1. e
        ESNY Feb 17, 2011 09:04 AM

        They are a lot smarter than me, but it doesn't make sense to me. I cook on my pizza stone, under the broiler and get my pies to cook in about 2 minutes. The temp of my stone before use is about 700 degrees (preheats for an hour at 550 and then another few minutes under the broiler before i use it) and I just dont know what the additional benefit would be to using steel.

        To test something similar, you can use a cast iron skillet upside down instead of a pizza stone and would see how that would work. Preheat it on the stove for at least 5 minutes over high, then flip it over, put in the oven under the broiler and put your pizza on it.

        1. todao Feb 17, 2011 09:16 AM

          As long as you properly clean and cure your steel sheet (it'll have some residue from the manufacturing process and, of course, handling) it should be fine to cook with. Your state and national park rangers make those BBQ pits out of the same stuff.
          IMO, there isn't enough benefit (if any) to using a steel plate over a baking stone. If the temperature of your oven is 500 degrees and if it's properly preheated the steel won't get any hotter than the stone - the environment is, after all, 500 degrees.

          24 Replies
          1. re: todao
            tommy Feb 17, 2011 09:25 AM

            "If the temperature of your oven is 500 degrees and if it's properly preheated the steel won't get any hotter than the stone - the environment is, after all, 500 degrees."

            That's not exactly true. A pizza stone can get much hotter than the maximum temperature setting of an oven. I suspect the same goes for steel.

            1. re: tommy
              e
              ESNY Feb 17, 2011 10:53 AM

              very true. as i mention above, I've measured my stone at almost 700 degrees using an infrared thermometer in my oven which tops out at 550 degrees. Thats using the broiler, but even using it set at 550 degrees, the stone still tops out over 600.

              1. re: ESNY
                t
                therealdoctorlew Feb 17, 2011 11:38 AM

                I believe the actual value of metal vs stone/ceramic is not the temperature but the ability to transfer heat rapidly, ie, conduction. The stone will be as hot but will not transfer heat into the crust (which is of course colder) as fast as a metal plate. Furthermore, the metal will conduct heat from below to its top (cooking) surface rapidly, while the stone will not.

                On the other hand, the stone has a higher specific heat (energy per volume) than metal, so has more heat to transfer. On the other other hand, because of a higher specific heat, the stone will take longer to preheat than the metal.

                Not having a metal plate, and no thermocouple either, I cannot verify which would do better as to cooking pizza crust.

                1. re: therealdoctorlew
                  kaleokahu Jun 25, 2013 09:27 PM

                  Hello, Doctor: "I believe the actual value of metal vs stone/ceramic is not the temperature but the ability to transfer heat rapidly, ie, conduction."

                  Correctamundo. However, there is also the secondary benefit of a higher specific heat than terra cotta. A thick steel sheet is going to have more heat to conduct, i.e., not only will it conduct faster, but there's more stored heat to give your pie. An equivalent sheet of copper would, on balance, be even better. This is why the very best Genoise sheets are copper.

                  Aloha,
                  Kaleo

              2. re: tommy
                dave_c Feb 17, 2011 11:50 AM

                No way something can be hotter than the surrounding environment, unless it's generating its own heat.

                Basic law of thermodynamics.

                1. re: dave_c
                  tommy Feb 17, 2011 11:59 AM

                  Which law in particular? I'm not sure you understand the laws of thermodynamics or at least how they would be applied in this situation.

                  1. re: tommy
                    dave_c Feb 17, 2011 01:12 PM

                    What I'm saying is the pizza stone can't generate heat so the stone can never be warmer than the oven.

                    Now, if the pizza stone where on top (very close to the) heating element, I can see the stone being warmer than the oven itself.

                    1. re: dave_c
                      tommy Feb 17, 2011 01:17 PM

                      The stone can get hotter than the highest setting on the oven. It's really that simple.

                      1. re: dave_c
                        t
                        Td61 Feb 19, 2011 08:45 AM

                        You are absolutely correct dave _ c.

                        1. re: Td61
                          tommy Feb 19, 2011 09:01 AM

                          LOL!

                      2. re: tommy
                        Zeldog Mar 3, 2011 06:51 PM

                        The second law, Tommy, which in nonscientific words says heat always flows from hot to cold and never from cold to hot (so you can never make something hotter than the source of the heat). It's the equivalent of of saying fluids always flow from a point of high pressure to one of lower pressure. But a lot of this argument is based on three things: 1) an oven's temperature setting is not the same as the temperature at the thermostat, 2) if the thermostat is accurate, the actual temperature will fluctuate above and below the target as the oven cycles on and off, and 3) if there is a very hot radiant heat source such as a broiler, you can indeed make the stone hotter than the air near the thermostat, especially if your oven does not shut down at 500F when you use the broiler.

                        I really like the idea of using the broiler after heating the stone to 500F and will try it next time I make pizza, but Esny, if you set the oven at 550 and the stone goes up to 600, it's because of one or more of the 3 items I mentioned above (plus the accuracy of your oven's thermostat). Can we all be friends now?

                        1. re: Zeldog
                          tommy Mar 4, 2011 04:10 AM

                          There's no argument. ESNY and I are right, demonstrably. Everyone who doesn't agree is wrong. It doesn't take any vague knowledge of the laws of thermodynamics (with which I am very familiar) to prove or disprove this. I'm not sure what the argument is.

                          It seems that people are forgetting that the heat source in an oven (fire, for example), is really hot. I tire of the persistence fueled with ignorance. Although like a Charlie Sheen I can't take my eyes off.

                          1. re: Zeldog
                            e
                            ESNY Mar 4, 2011 06:06 AM

                            You do agree that in order to heat the oven up to 550 degrees, the heating element would have to be hotter than 550, right?

                            Thus, since the stone retains heat a lot better than the surrounding air, it goes to reason that one of the benefits of preheating your oven and stone for over an hour is that all that extra heat from the element to heat up the air to 550 degrees is retained by the stone. Ergo, the stone will be hotter than the designated oven temp.

                            I'm not even talking about using the broiler to heat the stone as I realize that is a completely different animal. One I do recommend trying though.

                        2. re: dave_c
                          e
                          ESNY Feb 19, 2011 11:49 AM

                          The laws of physics must cease to exist in my oven being my stone gets much hotter than my highest oven temp.

                          1. re: ESNY
                            tommy Feb 19, 2011 11:56 AM

                            ESNY, in fairness to the two scientists here, we should probably note that you and I live on Ceti Alpha V.

                            1. re: ESNY
                              dacfood Feb 27, 2011 11:16 AM

                              Your oven temperature is not measuring the temperature of the heat source; it's measuring the temperature of the air at some point inside the oven. The temperature varies inside the oven depending upon how close something is to the heating element(s). A convection oven creates a more uniform temperature throughout the oven. That's why you can, for example, cook several cookie sheets at the same time.

                              A pizza stone is able to retain heat more efficiently than the air so it can be hotter than the air but not hotter than the heat source. I asked Jeff Verasano, who has an excellent site on pizza making (http://bit.ly/d3OBcX), the question about using a steel sheet. He said that the problem isn't so much the bottom heat but creating a higher heat above the pizza. His thought is that using steel would make the problem worse because it increases the bottom heat and doesn't address the problem of lower temp above.

                              So no laws of physics or thermodynamics are being broken but steel is not the answer.

                              1. re: dacfood
                                dave_c Feb 28, 2011 10:46 AM

                                Hi! I reread the yahoo link.

                                1) The suggestion was to place the stainless sheet closest to the broiler (I'm assuming he's referring to an electric oven) which would be the top shelf.
                                - At this height, the sheet will only get as hot as the oven since the sheet is probably 14" to 18" from the lower oven elements..

                                2) Before sliding in the pizza, turn on the broiler to cook the pizza.
                                - That broiler heat will take care of the issue of lower temps from above.

                                It sounds like an interesting (fun and new) way to cook pizza that's worth a shot.

                                Since I only have a pizza stone, I might try heating the stone on the bottom, which is closest to the heating element, at max oven temps and do some last minute shuffling to the top shelf for the broiler heat. Also, I received a large (14" or 15") cast iron skillet which may be worth a try at pizza making.

                                1. re: dave_c
                                  e
                                  ESNY Feb 28, 2011 11:38 AM

                                  Why are you assuming its electric? My oven is gas and the broiler is on the top of the main oven compartment.

                                  As i've said before, just the bake feature of my oven, set at 550 degrees, my stone will top out at about 600 degrees when measured with an infrared thermometer. I just don't understand why people refuse to accept this fact. I promise you that the temp of a stone in an oven set to 550 degrees, will exceed 550 degrees. Theoretical discussions of thermodynamics aside

                                  I also cook pizzas using the broiler. If I put the stone about 5 inches from the broiler element, on the top of my main oven compartment, and preheat at 550 for an hour and then turn the broiler on, the stone will get close to 700 degrees.

                                  I still don't quite understand the benefit of steel, as opposed to a stone, but I also haven't tried it, so maybe it does work better but I have pretty damn good results using a stone and the broiler.

                                  1. re: ESNY
                                    dave_c Mar 1, 2011 08:32 AM

                                    For an electric oven, the oven heating coil is on the bottom of the oven with the broiler element at the top of the oven.

                                    Typically, a gas oven is on the bottom of the oven and the broiler is a separate drawer below the main compartment.

                                    Gas oven with the oven burner and broiler at the top of the oven compartment is not as common. The only time I've seen that configuration was for compact ranges, 24" or less.

                                    Basically, the description the author used closely matches an electric oven.

                                    Your oven automatically overcomes the problem of lower temps on top of the pizza so I bet your pizzas are very good.

                                    1. re: ESNY
                                      d
                                      dpwright44 May 24, 2012 10:58 AM

                                      @ESNY. I understand your confusion. The best way to describe this is to simply walk into your kitchen, take your infrared thermometer, and check the temperature of a few items. If you have a tile or granite countertop, check that temperature. It will read, say 72 degrees (assuming that is the temp in the room). Now measure the temperature of the kitchen cabinets doors, assuming there wood. They will also read 72 degrees (again, assuming that is the temp in the room). Now, put your hand on the countertop, and put your hand on the cabinet door. Notice how the countertop 'feels' colder than the cabinet door, and yet they are the exact same temperature. That is because the countertop is a much better heat conductor.

                                      Same exact thing happens with a pizza stone versus a metal sheet. The metal is simply a better conductor of heat. This results in better transfer of heat to the pizza, it is that simple.

                                      I was using pizza stones and tiles from home depot for a long time. I switched to the metal sheet (1/4 inch aluminum cut to fit my oven from a local metal shop, about $35 bucks). Best thing I ever did. I was getting really good results from my stones, but get better results from this sheet of metal.

                                      1. re: dpwright44
                                        cowboyardee Sep 12, 2012 01:31 PM

                                        Sorry to bump an old thread, but I just want to add my 2 cents, since this was never cleared up.

                                        It is indeed possible to get a pizza stone or pan significantly hotter than an oven's max temp setting. This can be easily confirmed with an infrared thermometer. How exactly you heat your oven and place your stone are very important, however.

                                        The mistake people are making when thinking about this is assuming that the stone/pan is heated by the surrounding air (that is, by convection). Most of the time, this is actually a smaller factor in how the stone is heated. Radiation is often a bigger factor. This effect is exaggerated when you heat the stone/pan directly under the broiler. Though the oven is set to turn the broiler off when the air temperature reaches, say, 500, a large pan or stone effectively absorbs much of the broiler's radiated heat, becoming quite hot itself while simultaneously slowing the time to heat the rest of the air to 500. In effect, by the time the air reaches 500 (and the element turns off), the stone is well above 500 because it effectively insulated the broiler from the rest of the oven. If you were to turn off the oven, the temperature of the stone would eventually equalize to that of its surroundings.

                                        It's not that the stone is generating its own heat. It's just absorbing a disproportionate amount of the oven or broiler's radiated heat because of its size and placement.

                              2. re: dave_c
                                BiscuitBoy Jun 26, 2013 11:09 AM

                                I'll tell my driveway she's breaking basic law, next time I burn my feet getting the mail barefoot. My truck, parked in a sunny spot, is the next scofflaw to be informed

                                1. re: BiscuitBoy
                                  f
                                  ferret Jun 27, 2013 09:30 AM

                                  Have you ever stepped on the plastic/wood composite decking on a sunny day? It channels the sun's energy with no noticeable loss despite the 93 million mile journey. Defies the laws of ASTROphysics.

                                  1. re: ferret
                                    BiscuitBoy Jun 27, 2013 10:41 AM

                                    Ha! Trex-deck cookery!

                          2. k
                            karykat Feb 17, 2011 11:33 AM

                            I use a Mario Batali flat pan that is cast iron on top and enameled on the bottom. I used to use a stone but the flat pan is easier to manage for me -- easier to take in and out of the oven. It has handles on the side that make handling it easy. It heats up really fast. Faster than the stone I think. I use parchment on it as others have suggested.
                            \
                            I don't know how it would compare to steel But it cooks quickly and give a crisp bottom to things like pizza and flatbreads.

                            5 Replies
                            1. re: karykat
                              lilgi Feb 18, 2011 10:37 PM

                              Karykat, I was going to do a thread for some recommendations on a pizza stone (lost mine a few years ago and haven't replaced it.) After reading your post I'm seriously reconsidering. Is there a huge difference? I would much rather have the pan you mentioned, and the stone is more difficult to manage indeed. Pampered Chef puts out a stone that is much lighter and seems more manageable, but I don't know if there's any difference in quality, or if it even matters.

                              1. re: lilgi
                                tommy Feb 19, 2011 05:28 AM

                                How does one need to manage a stone? Mine sits in the oven and doesn't move. Ever. It could weight 1000 lbs and it wouldn't matter, if you'll pardon the hyperbole.

                                1. re: tommy
                                  lilgi Feb 19, 2011 07:01 AM

                                  Isn't there a smoking issue with leaving it in? I would consider it if I could place it at the base and not on the rack. At the very least if I had to move it just for cleaning the oven it wouldn't be too much trouble.

                                  1. re: lilgi
                                    tommy Feb 19, 2011 07:15 AM

                                    No smoke issues.

                                  2. re: tommy
                                    k
                                    karykat Feb 28, 2011 08:52 AM

                                    I've used stones. I've used this cast iron thing with handles from
                                    Batali. i've left both in the oven most of the time. My Batali thing is in the oven right now.

                                    I really prefer the Batali thing. I don't need to take it out that often, but often enough that I don't want it to be a pain. (Maybe I'm just a wimp!)
                                    Like sometimes I want to do a stew with a big dutch oven.

                                    Or sometimes you want to back cookies on multiple shelves.

                                    Since they both perform very well, I'll use the one that's easy for me to handle.

                              2. b
                                butterqueen Feb 18, 2011 10:58 PM

                                I use Mario Batali's cast iron enameled pizza pan and i would recommend it to anyone. It gets very, very hot in a shorter amount of time than a pizza stone and it's easy to take in and out of the oven. I put it right on the eye with the heat blasting as I put the dough and toppings on. It has handles so you can also use it for serving. I've even started to buy it for wedding gifts. LOVE IT and I'm a pizza fanatic.

                                3 Replies
                                1. re: butterqueen
                                  lilgi Feb 19, 2011 01:43 AM

                                  Good to know, I have a very nice recipe for focaccia that yields nice results without one, but I'm starting to miss having one. I only wish that these pans were rectangular.

                                  1. re: lilgi
                                    menton1 Mar 6, 2011 08:36 AM

                                    Dup.

                                    1. re: menton1
                                      lilgi Mar 6, 2011 09:06 AM

                                      Menton, maybe you meant Butterqueen?

                                2. menton1 Mar 6, 2011 09:14 AM

                                  How hot is the gas flame in the oven? My guess is that the flame itself could weigh in at close to 1K degrees-- that's how the stone can get hotter than the ambient temp in the oven!!

                                  1. pagesinthesun Jun 25, 2013 05:46 PM

                                    We purchased this pizza steel about a month ago after receiving this review/email from Tasting Table. We have used it twice and we are SOLD! We have used stones and have made pretty good grilled pizzas in the years past.

                                    http://www.tastingtable.com/entry_det...

                                    Here is a picture of our first attempt. It literally takes less than 10 min to get the brown/burnt crust edges. (after 45min to one hour heat up time

                                    )

                                    I've made my own Neapolitan style pizza dough for years, but we used purchased pizza dough for this. I'm in the process of experimenting with sourdough starter after this good experiment! I have a renewed excitement for pizza dough, sauce, cheese, and topping after this purchase!

                                     
                                    2 Replies
                                    1. re: pagesinthesun
                                      BiscuitBoy Jun 26, 2013 11:13 AM

                                      ^ they look like pizza smiles

                                      1. re: BiscuitBoy
                                        pagesinthesun Jun 27, 2013 09:13 AM

                                        Haha...we sure were smiling when we were eating them!

                                        We had already packed our rolling pin and this store bought dough wasn't very happy about being stretched by hand. We would usually prefer our crust thinner, but no one was complaining.

                                    2. s
                                      SeaKoz Jun 27, 2013 01:57 PM

                                      I made my own pizza steel for $49:

                                      I found a local blacksmith (Exor Ironworks in Seattle) who sold me a 16"x14"x3/8" steel plate for $45. They took a grinder to the edges so that they're smooth and not sharp.

                                      Once I had the steel plate, I let it soak for 48 hours in vinegar to remove the mill scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill_scale).

                                      After the soak, the mill scale came right off with a garden hose, no scrubbing involved!

                                      I then wiped it down with baking soda to neutralize the vinegar (probably overkill), and hosed it down again with a hose.

                                      Next, I scrubbed it with soap and got it really clean and went through seasoning like you would with cast iron.

                                      Cost: $45 for the steel, $4 for the vinegar and $1 for the baking soda.

                                      I'm not sure you'd want one the size of your oven, that'd be extremely heavy! My plate is 24 lbs. Steel weighs .2839 lb/cubic inch which makes calculating the theoretical weight of your steel easy. Further, you'll want space around the steel for air to circulate.

                                      1 Reply
                                      1. re: SeaKoz
                                        cowboyardee Jun 27, 2013 02:16 PM

                                        Nice work SeaKoz.

                                        "I'm not sure you'd want one the size of your oven, that'd be extremely heavy!"
                                        ________
                                        One nearly the size of your oven would indeed be quite heavy. OTOH there are two upsides of using a larger slab of steel:

                                        - You can cook larger pizzas on one, or possibly a couple smaller pizzas at a time.

                                        - Less obviously, if you cook under a broiler, a larger stone reflects more of the broiler's heat back to the top of the oven, effectively creating an even hotter mini environment for pizza cooking at the top of your oven. This is somewhat dependent on where your oven's temperature sensor is located though. Not sure why you'd be especially concerned with air circulation unless you're using a convection oven, and even then I suspect you'll get better results just by maximizing the heat where the pizza is cooked.

                                      Show Hidden Posts