I need Sauterne wine for fondue, but can't find it anywhere.

[librarianjen]

Are there any acceptable substitutes? None of the liquor stores around me have it, and many I call are confusing it with the sweet dessert wine, sauterneS.

Any recommendations? Thank you!

[EvergreenDan]

Try in the wine forum: http://chowhound.chow.com/boards/34

Over here, we're liable to suggest you use any dry crisp white wine so long as you include kirshwasser. ;-)

--
www.kindredcocktails.com | Craft + Collect + Concoct + Categorize + Community

[veenaprasad]

Agreed on using any dry crisp white wine. But please be careful what kirschwasser you add! They're not all made the same and whatever we've found so far in the US (cherry liquor that tastes like cough syrup) has been utter crap and ruins the fondue. Better actually to leave it out unless you're sure it is the real thing.

[Delucacheesemonger]

Have been using cherry juice instead of kirsch to dissolve cornstarch for years, works and tastes great with never the cough syrup flavor you mention. The Russian ones with the schmutz in bottom of jar are better as not sweet but great intense cherry flavor.

[sunshine842]

just to clarify for those who aren't sure what it is...

the "real thing" should be crystal-clear, with a watery rather than syrupy consistency, and will go down like jet fuel with a sublime cherry aftertaste. It's an eau de vie, not a liqueur.

[ChefJune]

There is really no such thing as "Sauterne." It stems from "back in the day" when folks called their wines from wherever "Burgundy" and "Chablis" etc., but they weren't anything close to that.

I cannot imagine using real Sauternes in fondue, either. I think you'd do well with an inexpensive white Bordeaux (Sauvignon Blanc/Semillon blend) for your fondue. Those should be available in just about any wine store, or even supermarket.

[librarianjen]

Thank you! I will go with a white Bordeaux, and definitely will add kirsch, as per Dan.

Thanks so much!

[zin1953]

I wouldn't waste a good white Bordeaux on a fondue . . . .

[Bill Hunt]

When I saw that you had posted to this thread, I was hoping that you could refresh my feeble memory about the "Sauterne" wines, of decades past - who sold under that altered name, and what might have been the grapes used. You are such a wealth of vinos history, and I need a bit of that right now.

Thanks,

Hunt

[ChefJune]

Hunt: I remember something called "Donaldo Sauterne" from Portugal, that came in a large green glass bottle that sooked a bit like the Almaden bottles. I have no idea what grapes were used in that.

[zin1953]

re: "Sauterne" (without the final "s") . . .

Under the old ATF regulations, there was a category of wine called "Semi-Generic." True semi-generic wines were American wines that bore European place names of origin, such as "Burgundy", "Claret", and "Chianti"; "Chablis", "Rhine" and "Sauterne." (Most Americans simply call these "generic wines," but this is technically incorrect. Generic wines are literally "Red Wine" and "White Wine.") Other names for semi-generics include "Moselle," "Haut-Sauterne" (again, missing the final "s"), "Malaga," "Madeira", "Marsala", "Port", "Sherry", "Angelica", and "Champagne".

Although "Champagne," as a semi-generic American wine, had to be sparkling, and "Malaga," "Madeira", "Marsala", "Port", "Sherry", "Angelica" all had to be fortified to some degree, the others merely had to be wine . . . NO restrictions or limitations were imposed as to the grape type(s) used in making the wine, the level of sweetness/dryness of the wine, even the color was never specified in the regulations.

The IMPLICATION was, of course, that the a semi-generic "Burgundy" or "Chablis" would be akin to -- or at least somewhat reminiscent of -- a French Burgundy or Chablis, but this was rarely if ever the case, and certainly never mandated by regulations.

Certainly with a semi-generic "Sauterne," there was no regulation that the wine be sweet, that the wine have any Botrytis whatsoever, etc., etc., etc. Generally speaking, however, if a winery produced BOTH a "Sauterne" and a "Haut-Sauterne," the latter often contained more sweetness -- but nothing made this so. So, too, for the difference between, say, a "Chablis" versus a "Rhine" wine.

That said, when I worked in the Napa Valley, the winery bottled "Burgundy", "Claret" and "Chianti" >>>all out of the same tank! <<<

Cheers,
Jason

[Bill Hunt]

Jason,

That was about how I remembered things too. I was hoping for a bit more detail on the "Sauterne," but like "Tokay," was probably so generic, that few alive today, even recall. Maybe we need a US Wine Freedom of Information Act?

Thanks,

Hunt

[zin1953]

There's no real additional detail to be had (see below), and a "Wine Freedom of Information Act" would have to be filed with each winery, and that would presume they still had records available. The problem is that ANYTHING could be used to make a semi-generic wine, and nothing prevented a winery from bottling "Chablis," "Rhine," and "Sauterne" all from the same tank.

/\/\/\/\/\

US Code Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
PART 4—LABELING AND ADVERTISING OF WINE
Subpart C—Standards of Identity for Wine
§ 4.24 Generic, semi-generic, and non-generic designations of geographic significance.

(a)(1) A name of geographic significance which is also the designation of a class or type of wine, shall be deemed to have become generic only if so found by the Administrator.

(a)(2) Examples of generic names, originally having geographic significance, which are designations for a class or type of wine are: Vermouth, Sake.

(b)(1) A name of geographic significance, which is also the designation of a class or type of wine, shall be deemed to have become semi-generic only if so found by the Administrator. Semi-generic designations may be used to designate wines of an origin other than that indicated by such name only if there appears in direct conjunction therewith an appropriate appellation of origin disclosing the true place of origin of the wine, and if the wine so designated conforms to the standard of identity, if any, for such wine contained in the regulations in this part or, if there be no such standard, to the trade understanding of such class or type. See §24.257(c) of this chapter for exceptions to the Administrator's authority to remove names from paragraph (b)(2) of this section.

(b)(2) Examples of semi-generic names which are also type designations for grape wines are Angelica, Burgundy, Claret, Chablis, Champagne, Chianti, Malaga, Marsala, Madeira, Moselle, Port, Rhine Wine (syn. Hock), Sauterne, Haut Sauterne, Sherry, Tokay.

(c)(1) A name of geographic significance, which has not been found by the Administrator to be generic or semi-generic may be used only to designate wines of the origin indicated by such name, but such name shall not be deemed to be the distinctive designation of a wine unless the Administrator finds that it is known to the consumer and to the trade as the designation of a specific wine of a particular place or region, distinguishable from all other wines.

(c)(2) Examples of nongeneric names which are not distinctive designations of specific grape wines are: American, California, Lake Erie, Napa Valley, New York State, French, Spanish. Additional examples of foreign nongeneric names are listed in subpart C of part 12 of this chapter.

(c)(3) Examples of nongeneric names which are also distinctive designations of specific grape wines are: Bordeaux Blanc, Bordeaux Rouge, Graves, Medoc, Saint-Julien, Chateau Yquem, Chateau Margaux, Chateau Lafite, Pommard, Chambertin, Montrachet, Rhone, Liebfraumilch, Rudesheimer, Forster, Deidesheimer, Schloss Johannisberger, Lagrima, and Lacryma Christi. A list of foreign distinctive designations, as determined by the Administrator, appears in subpart D of part 12 of this chapter.

[T.D. 6521, 25 FR 13835, Dec. 29, 1960, as amended by T.D. ATF–296, 55 FR 17967, Apr. 30, 1990; T.D. ATF–398, 63 FR 44783, Aug. 21, 1998; T.D. ATF–425, 65 FR 11890, 11891, Mar. 7, 2000]

/\/\/\/\/\

Now if THAT doesn't give you a headache . . . .

Again, there is nothing in the regs that make a semi-generic "Claret" (for example) contain any traditional Bordeaux grape whatsoever; nothing to have a "Burgundy" contain any Pinot Noir or Chardonnay; nothing for a "Chianti" to contain any Sangiovese, or a "Rhine" to have any Riesling. And certainly there was nothing in the regs that made a "Sauterne" contain any Sauvignon Blanc, any Semillon, or any Botrytis . . . the names are essentially meaningless, and always have been.

This isn't to say that, for example, Almaden's Mountian Rhine Wine wasn't sweeter than Almaden's Mountain White Chablis, but nothing in the regulations ***forced*** it to be that way, and legally, they could have been from the very same tank -- only the labels in the labeling machine were changed to protect the innocent.

And, as I mentioned previously, the Napa Valley winery I worked at made four semi- and generic wines: the "Burgundy," "Claret," and "Chianti" all came out of the very same tank -- we just changed the labels in the machine. Only the "Red Table Wine" was different.

Cheers,
Jason

[Bill Hunt]

Dang,

Just thought that you'd have it on the top of your head - but you are "excused" for not knowing. Recall the "term," but cannot ever remember tasting one of them.

Thanks,

Hunt

[ChefJune]

There are quite a number of "good" white Bordeaux for around $10-12.

[zin1953]

That's true, but a "classic" cheese fondue calls for Fendant de Valais or Neuchâtel -- both exclusively or predominantly produced from Chasselas grapes -- very neutral in flavor and character . . . something that even a "good" Bordeaux blanc sec is not.

Just my own 2¢ . . . .

Cheers,
Jason

[sunshine842]

for heaven's sake...just dump a little of something white and semi-drinkable into the pot...it won't matter once it's behind the flavor of the cheese, anyway!

[zin1953]

Isn't that what I said?

[sunshine842]

if you did, it wasn't very clear

[njfoodies]

Pick up some Chateau d'Yquem and call it a day! ;-) -mJ

[librarianjen]

That, though, is a Sauternes wine - a sweet wine. I'm looking for a sauterne (without the s at the end) - a dry wine for classic cheese fondue.

[Bill Hunt]

Not sure that anyone is still doing that. I would also guess that "Sauterne" (no S) was something like French Colimbard, or maybe even Thompson Seedless?

An SB, or SB/Semillon would be just fine. If the recipe calls for "Sauterne," it will likely be 10x better, than what was once intended.

Maybe someone can list, just for curiosity's sake, some of the "Sauterne" wines, and what they were made from. I remember them, but as a historical footnote, along with the aforementioned "bastardizations" of French appelations, which appeared in the naming and marketing of a lot of US jug-wine. Remember, that info is just out of curiosity. I do not want to buy a case (probably 4 - 1gal. jugs, replete with the little finger ring on the neck... ).

Most of all, enjoy your dish,

Hunt

[sedimental]

Isn't that found in the grocery store? I think I have it in my more "upscale" grocery store next to the sherry, marsala, etc. I might be wrong, but I would check there first.

[ChefJune]

no Chateau d'Yquem in a grocery store, I would think. Even the lesser years cost upwards of $300 for a half-bottle.

Besides, it would add NOTHING positive to fondue.

[njfoodies]

I enjoy my d'Yquem with lobster. Will be having it on New Years Eve...definitely wouldn't waste it in fondue! -mJ

[Bill Hunt]

I think that Sedimental's tongue might have been in his/her cheek.

When you add that "S," it should actually be a "$." [Grin]

Now, I could be wrong, so will just have to wait and see.

Hunt

[homards100]

Ice wine will be nice... chile late harvest sauvignon... ice cider too... happy new year

[sedimental]

librarianjen is talking about the COOKING wine!!!! Not a French Sauternes (with an "s") dessert wine! I don't think you folks are understanding what is being asked. Sauterne was found in the grocery store next to the other salted cooking wines, sherry, marsala, etc. It was widely used in fondues in years gone by. It is yellow colored and tastes like crap. You don't drink it! LOL

[librarianjen]

LOL Thank you! tee hee

I looked in a large, upscale grocery store and they didn't have it - so bummed. That too is where my mother said to look first.

[invinotheresverde]

Any dry white will taste better than cooking "wine".

[sedimental]

Maybe, but it sounds like librarianjen was trying to follow a specific (maybe family, old school?) recipe.

[invinotheresverde]

That doesn't make it good. ;)

[sedimental]

Well, if you cant find it, other choices would be a rather insipid tasting (drinking) wine with a sprinkle of salt. If I remember right, the Sauterne (no "s"!) was really quite weak tasting.

[Bill Hunt]

I think that some "get it," but others might not.

The wine called for in the recipe was basically a generic, jug white, and NOT a dessert wine. It was a marketing product of the day, and nothing fancy. Even Jason could not come up with the "mix," so that leaves me back to French Columbard, but that is but a guess.

Hunt

[zin1953]

There is no "mix." See my post above.

[Bill Hunt]

The term mix, in quotes, was euphemistic to describe a wine from unknown varietal(s). There might not have been a cuvee, just a labeling convention, per your furnished material.

Thanks,

Hunt

[Ed Dibble]

No, not salted. There may have been a cooking wine version, but sauterne back in the days was a bland neutral white wine without salt.

[sedimental]

I was referring to the sauterne cooking wine and how the OP might replicate the taste.

[zin1953]

FWIW, I would NEVER use anything labeled "Cooking Wine." Not only is it bad wine to start with, but then it's salted and throws off the balance of your dish . . . .

[sedimental]

I wouldn't (now) either, but its the OP's question.

Some of the old school recipes (50's & 60's) were really good and they used cooking wine. The balance was different then. I think that the cheese used was probably different as well. I am trying to remember what kind of cheese was available in the grocery stores in the 1960's. I think it was "run of the mill swiss". Probably tasted like crap by itself. Sometimes recipes have to be taken in their totality.

You know, I really don't like fondues that are heavy on the "white wine" now. It overpowers everything. I might just have to hunt for an old school recipes and see what i can do with my avocado green fondue pot!

[Ed Dibble]

I actually remember the 50s and 60s, and good cooks did not use cooking wine. Cooking wine goes back to the 20s and 30s when real unsalted wine was not available in markets. Perhaps later it was also the choice in Baptist families so that it was clear that no one in the home was actually drinking wine.

Anyway, back in the fifties and early sixties, most grocery stores had limited stocks of wine, most of which (at least in the western part of the US) were semi-generics out of CA. So the home cook would have to choose among chablis, sherry, port, sauterne, rhine wine, burgundy, claret--none of which corresponded to real European wines. A recipe calling for sauterne would be calling for a neutral, not overly dry, and inexpensive wine. A cheap pinot grigio would be perfect.

[wally]

In the fifties and sixties, there were warnings against using so called cooking wines. I remember them too.

[sedimental]

Yes, use google:

Four Monks Sauterne cooking wine ($1.99) at most grocery stores.

[Bill Hunt]

Wonder which grapes those four monks used? I rather doubt that they were willing to share.

Gotta' see if my Safeway, or Fry's even has anything today, with the Sauterne designator on it. Somehow, I doubt it, but could be proven wrong.

Still, my bet is on French Columbard.

Hunt

[Ed Dibble]

I agree

[sunshine842]

any crisp white will do...traditionally it would be an Alsacian white...a riesling, gewurtztraminer, sylvaner...

Don't overthink this one -- remember that this was originated by shepherds in the mountains, so a glug of whatever was in their flask was what went into it.

[bclevy]

The traditional wines for cheese fondue are Roussette de Savoie on the
French side and Fendant on the Swiss side. They are extremely difficult
to find outside the Alps.

[therealdoctorlew]

You might find a gruner veltliner.

[GotDOCG]

Move! There are any number of late harvest wines that will fit the bill.... problem here though is that the "dolcetti" that you would want to drink (never cook with a wine that your would not drink!) tend to be a bit pricey... but will make a tp-die-for fondue... another alternative would be a sensational dry riesling...Stony Hill creates one that converted me!!! They don't even know how to spell oak!

[GotDOCG]

FYI... when I added Stony Hill Riesling, I assumed that it is to drink with the fondue...

[njfoodies]

I don't think I've ever had a sauterne (without the s). -mJ

[Bill Hunt]

You'd probably need to be as old, as I am, and then it would be so very easy to forget...

Though only a few posts have likely helped the poor OP, the discussion has been great fun.

Hunt

[Delucacheesemonger]

Classic wine used for cheese fondue, as Jason says is chasselas. Schoffit, Barmes-Buechler, and Boxler have a chasselas fronm Alsace and pretty wide distribution in this country. l like them better than the Swiss fendant or Neuchatel and they are a lot less expensive. l both cook with it and use as accompaniment to the fondue.
Woodland Hills has a chasselas from the Savoie on sale now for $ 11, thus easily doable.

[Midlife]

Not sure why "Sauterne wine" is REQUIRED, but I found this site Googling. It says that the two best varietals in the "Sauterne wine family" are Semillon and Sauvignon Blanc, while "lesser varieties include Sauvignon vert, Palomino, or Golden Chasselas, and many others, including Thompson Seedless".

http://www.oldandsold.com/articles02/...

Honestly, I had no idea. Sounds like this is an outdated term. Hope this helps, though it sounded like it was probably a New Years need.

[Bill Hunt]

Yeah, grab a jug of "Thompson Seedless," and cook away... [Grin]

Interesting varietals there. I cannot believe that French Columbard was mentioned no where. Guess I am wrong.

Thanks,

Hunt

[SteveG]

Biggest surprise: whatever golden chasselas is was in (some of) the Sauterne recommended for fondue back in the day. I'm always amazed how there are threads of legitimate cooking that survived through America's worst culinary eras.

[wally]

I just saw some Sauterne with salt in it by Reese at Andronicos on Shattuck in Berkeley. It was near vinegar.

[sunshine842]

"near vinegar" - -does that refer to proximity, or flavor? :D

[wally]

That was what I was looking at. I can't think of a circumstance where I would be aware of the flavor.

[MaryDyer]

I used to find Taylor (New York) Sauterne in Kansas City, but can't find it anywhere lately. The Cajun cook, Justin Wilson, used the heck out of the stuff on his PBS show years ago. I use the wine in my "greens" on New Years Day, along with the black eye peas, pork, etc. Maybe it can be found in Louisiana?