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The f-word.


I've seen the f-word pop up in several places on Chow today. Not happy about this. I'm sure the Ruth thing will be good for business, but Chow itself displaying swears like that will quickly make me rethink my use of this site.

Please consider using f--- in the article titles at least.

  1. Ever since it was founded the moderators have allowed the occasional well chosen swear word. The site seems to have survived and prospered in spite of that.

    I don't think they're going to change that policy.

    2 Replies
    1. re: Bob Martinez

      In part of his decision overturning the Communications Decency Act of 1996 Federal Appeals Court Judge Stewart Dalzell wrote the following:

      "The Internet is a far more speech-enhancing medium than print, the village green, or the mails. Because it would necessarily affect the Internet itself, the CDA would necessarily reduce the speech available for adults on the medium. This is a constitutionally intolerable result. Some of the dialogue on the Internet surely tests the limits of conventional discourse. Speech on the Internet can be unfiltered, unpolished, and unconventional, even emotionally charged, sexually explicit, and vulgar – in a word, “indecent” in many communities. But we should expect such speech to occur in a medium in which citizens from all walks of life have a voice. We should also protect the autonomy that such a medium confers to ordinary people as well as media magnates."

      The Internet - it's a great F%*&ing freedom fest...

      1. re: Servorg

        Wow, in "dog years" that's a long, long time ago. I'm impressed.

        I do understand that CH may not be the site for everyone.

    2. Forest Gump once said "Stupid is as stupid does."
      The new RuBo of Twitter fame now column expert on CHOW, Bitchin Kitchen on Cooking Channel, FOX's Hells Kitchen...these folks have been beating up new freedoms in a viral, global frontier...and if that's what it takes to make a highly educated and tech no savvy audience happy...I'm not buying it....it's all about packaging, shock and awe. Sound bites, bite.

      24 Replies
      1. re: HillJ

        The important thing about freedom is the right to be publicly stupid (or outrageous or controversial or foul mouthed or contrarian) without fear of Government reprisal.

        1. re: Servorg

          And there's common decency and laws surrounding that too. FOX bleeps out f-bombs on Hells' Kitchen but in print Ramsey can say whatever he likes. Like a nasty train wreck the public watches all sorts of nonsense. And, getting rewarded for bad behavior is the life blood of 99% of reality tv...doesn't make us smarter or richer food lovers (imho). So it would appear the food realm is ready to jump into the pond of outrageous behaivor. Does that make for good CH'ing? Nah.

          1. re: HillJ

            "Does that make for good CH'ing?"

            please define "good ch'ing"

            1. re: Buffy Despres

              Buffy D, we just don't agree. I consider good chowhounding a pleasure. One that doesn't need the shock and awe of stinging language or that I and my dinner guests consider foul, unnecessary and mean spirited. To each their own.

            2. re: HillJ

              <it would appear the food realm is ready to jump into the pond of outrageous behaivor.>

              I may be misinterpreting you, but if using four letter words counts as outrageous behavior, where does that leave actual outrageous behavior? I have a hard time getting outraged about language. Unless it's spelled wrong or used incorrectly. That pisses me off.

              1. re: small h

                Not only that (all good points) but think of the countries that do heavily censor the Internet. Places like N Korea and China and Myanmar and Cuba and Iran and Saudi Arabia. Not the sort of role models that I want America to emulate when it comes to freedom of speech, that is for certain.

                1. re: Servorg

                  Well, hold on here.

                  This isn't about censoring the Internet. It's about censoring Chow.com, which the mods at Chow.com can do any way they please because First Amendment rights (and any corollary free speech rights) are not applicable a Chowhound poster vis-a-vis Chow.com.

                  1. re: ipsedixit

                    We all know that Chowhound is a moderated site. But not for language as a descriptive tool when applied to our dining adventures. We come here of our own free will and participate within the bounds of the moderation. Chow is a less moderated part of this little Foodiverse. All of this is conducted not as a "usenet" site where the free-for-all of the Internet takes place. But then again, when trying to participate in a conversation, chaos makes for lousy communication.

                2. re: small h

                  small h, for you I would be happy to try and clarify what I'm trying to express. I'm reacting to the use of a common word. In my world, the f-bomb is not used to describe joy. I recognize language is a choice. Words awful for some and no issue for others. Fine. But this simple word doesn't typically come from positive, it's usually as result or followed by a negative. It describes foul behavior..and for my tastes..all too often..opens the gates to more of the same..mockery, for one. In the context of CHOW and RuBo, I won't be revisiting the column. For all the knocks the former writer took for being drunk with stories about alcohol or ripped to shreds for being asleep at the job, RuBo is already being praised for throwing around language that's still considered rough for many eyes and ears. If the real AB was writing the column, perhaps my criticism would have a different connection...but some mystery writer .... well I'm just not keen on this tone. If that appeals to you, enjoy.

                  1. re: HillJ

                    the f-word describes foul behavior? perhaps you're not doing it right.....

                    1. re: HillJ

                      I think that the answer to "when is it okay to use the word 'fuck'?" is "it depends." I don't think it's okay when the Vice President uses it to express anger toward a fellow government employee. But I mostly use it for emphasis. I'm much more likely to call something fucking amazing than I am to tell someone to fuck off.

                      But it is a loud word, and it tends to drown out the rest of the sentence - all you hear is "fuck." For that reason, I think it should be used sparingly and thoughtfully, especially in writing. I feel the same way about a lot of words, including some frequently-invoked terms that, right here on this very board, have become devoid of impact or meaning through overuse: authentic, delicious, etc.

                      And obviously, if you drop a heavy item on your foot, you don't have to stop and carefully consider whether you're using the word to its best advantage.

                        1. re: small h

                          I agree it depends and depends who is making the decision to allow the use of a single but impactful word in a magazine designed to discuss food in an atmosphere of "wordsmiths" enjoying the continuous dialogue. I reacted to the decision, one CHOW has been open to for some time. That reaction wasn't necessarily met as the popular one, but clearly not the lone disappointment.

                          Beyond that, I'm working on a wonderful pear recipe right now and would rather focus on the results than go round and round on this.

                          Might JUST be a word but it bugged me.

                          1. re: HillJ

                            It's likely that many of us have trigger words that inspire a reaction, stemming from who knows what. It seems this is yours. I have my own set, and mostly I just swallow my distaste because hey, different strokes. For a time, I couldn't read the word "cozy" without wanting to smack someone. Fucking cozy.

                            I hope that your pear recipe will be a rousing success.

                            1. re: small h

                              feel better getting that out? bet you do

                          2. re: small h

                            "I have a hard time getting outraged about language. Unless it's spelled wrong or used incorrectly. That pisses me off."

                            True 'dat, small h. I'm not particularly impressed with resorting to heavy swearing to get one's point across when there are far more elegant ways to do so but they are just words (as long as used and spelled correctly).

                            1. re: grayelf

                              i frequently and consciously misspell the word "fook" when i use it in a chowhound post. it's a real word that frequently comes out of my real, non-virtual mouth in real, non-virtual life, so i use it as i would any element of my real speech. i misspell the particular word in case anyone thinks i'm trying to shock or be offensive arbitrarily. not out to do that. sometimes i am starkly aware that i am from a very different social class than the average chowhound poster, and speech patterns and vernacular will reflect the differences between people at times. i am also capable of "talking as purty" as anybody on the board, have a decent grasp of the use of the english language, and have a mind capable of abstract thought, thanks. . . but i do want to point out that (consciously or unconsciously) we could limit the audience of the site if everyone is talking about food such as hot dogs and pho in completely elevated, over-intellectualized, queen's english-type speech patterns. is that what we want to do or not?

                              now. . . let's not get too serious about the language issue, profanity has been around for a long time. not that i want folks who i consider to be very fine ladies and gentlemen, some of whom have weighed in on this thread, to start totally cutting loose w the f-bombs, yes, it's possible *i* would be shocked! ;-P

                          3. re: HillJ

                            well HillJ, I think the answers are loud and clear on here.
                            I too have responded to the offensive verbiage on this web site.
                            but, to no avail. I think some of my gripes have even been deleted.
                            but of course, the continued use of profanity or colorful [at best or worst] language remains in tact. go figure. it just goes to show that we are so opposite each other except maybe in the realm of food and the obvious adoration we all possess for it.
                            for me though, not being raised with profanity, not letting it be spoken in my home if anyone knows what's good for them, probably makes me sound a fool.
                            I couldn't care less.................let them think I'm a fool, also let them know I abstain from having to go there.............because often times there are children present and nothing angers me more.............except that occasional fool who couldn't care less about offending, where have manners gone?

                        2. re: HillJ

                          RuBo: a legend in its own lunchtime.

                          1. re: HillJ

                            Ever read Anthony Bourdain? I think there might be more profanity and cussing in Kitchen Confidential and Medium Raw than in a pre-Beverly Hills Cop Eddie Murphy standup act.

                            1. re: ipsedixit

                              Sure. On the whole AB is very entertaining and smart. A healthy balance. A talented guy.

                            1. What do you find so offensive about you call the "f-word"?

                              Profanity of all types is common in well-known and well-regarded works of literature, e.g. Catcher in the Rye.

                              The f-word is part of our lexicon. If it is used simply as a way of expressing frustration, then I see no issue with it. However, if it is used to derogate another poster, or another poster's opinion, then it might be more of an issue.

                              1 Reply
                              1. re: ipsedixit

                                I last read Catcher in the Rye about 20 years ago -- but isn't Holden depressed when he sees it as graffiti and thinks his little sister has seen it, too? But of course there's also Lady Chatterley - we have fucked a flame into being. That's cool.

                              2. The word your talking about is "foodie", right?

                                1 Reply
                                1. In certain situations, and under the appropriate conditions, the f-bomb has its place. Generally, however, it seems people use it in written and the spoken word as a lazy substitute for a more fitting adjective (one that requires a more developed vocabulary).

                                  11 Replies
                                  1. re: enbell

                                    I couldn't agree more, enbell. I loved George Carlin. He knew how to work an f-bomb.

                                    1. re: enbell

                                      A much-beloved CH of mine said "oh fuck" when a pot or something fell out of her cabinet. Seemed totally appropriate :)

                                      1. re: c oliver

                                        It's surprising sometimes what kind of words fly out of your mouth at times like that. I grabbed a hot pot, it was right out of the oven, with my hand and heard sizzle. The words were me, totally uncensored It wasn't just "Ow!" and I never swear normally.

                                        1. re: chowser

                                          I use it when I feel it's appropriate, for instance to express extreme anger (to another adult), or perhaps in moments of---uhhhh---intimacy. HOWEVER, I recently had a conversation with a middle aged well educated man who used it almost every other word and it was totally f-ing annoying.

                                        2. re: c oliver

                                          Even Koreans discuss/explain this word--I cry from laughter every time I watch this, "wow, it is sick."


                                          1. re: Val

                                            Oh my gosh, this is hilarious! I am screaming over here, Val! Thank you for posting this, I can't wait to share it. Omg, it's funny. :D

                                            ( your post is f-ing sick!)

                                            1. re: Georgia Sommers

                                              and the illustrations, hilarious. And, makes the point of language usage so beautifully.

                                            2. re: Val

                                              "Little children and pregnant women should not watch" was my favorite part. Mrs. Byun, now that you're expecting, you'll have to refrain from smoking, eschew alcohol and caffeine, and avoid listening to swears.

                                              1. re: small h

                                                Really, this thing kills me. I've already watched it again. I love it when he assures his audience that he has never used these swears before.

                                                1. re: Georgia Sommers

                                                  Now...the person who posted this on Facebook was none other than Emily Kim, whom I adore as "maangchi"...her Korean cooking and blog is so fabulous and has been lauded here on CH...and she is so funny and bright and positive all the time plus her recipes rule!!...but O.M.G. I about died laughing the first time I watched it and I still tear up laughing over how EARNEST he is...and just the words on the board are hysterical....it kills me to watch it even for the 100th time!!!

                                                  1. re: Val

                                                    i also about cried laughing, love the part where he's explaining the phrase "son of a bitch," --and if we're addressing a woman, then we don't say-- "daughter of a bitch,"-- we only need to use this one word--"bitch!"

                                                    however i think that the part where he explains that sometimes profanity can be used in a light way, and even to give someone a compliment: "your dancing is fucking sick!" is actually very relevant and germane to this discussion.

                                                    he also observes that "asshole" is really a very child-like cuss, but that english-speaking adults use it as a common offensive term rather than as a humorous, light one. the context of cussing is very cultural, sometimes people are offended when no offense is intended, and sometimes it's the opposite-- if a person from the u.k. was terribly angry with me, wanted to have strong words, and called me "a bloody great prat," i'd probably die laughing and think it was adorable.

                                        3. I'd like to point out that, while freedom of speech is a constitutional right, it's also important to consider key elements of the social contract that allow for peaceful co-existence, like basic consideration of others.

                                          I cuss like a sailor among close friends, and the explitives do indeed fly in my own kitchen. However, I don't use that language in front of my parents, grandparents, or in any public situations where I am surrounded by people that I can't immediately identify as being prone to using salty language as casually as my friends and I do.

                                          I was raised by people for whom strong language is considered an offense, not just to their sensibilities, but also to the life of the American vocabulary. Granted, as some here have said, "rough" language can be used to emphasize a point, but for those with an aversion to blue language, It's hard to hear the points being made amid all the f-bombs--all they can hear are the cussy concussions.

                                          I tend to assume that Chowhound is a site that draws people from a wide variety of ages and backgrounds, so, out of consideration, I opt not to Ramsey it up while in these environs.

                                          1 Reply
                                          1. re: dingey

                                            i for one, think anglo saxon is something that ought to be treasured.
                                            fornication just doesn't have the same ring as ain't.

                                          2. I find that overuse of the f-bomb or other naughty words :-) tends to indicate a writer with limited command of the english language or a narrow imagination. In a skilled writers work, they can sometimes deliver depth and punch but that is not the case in most pieces.

                                            As far as this Ruth character is concerned, I don't find her articles amusing and don't really consider her column as a positive addition to Chowhound. The beauty of the web is that I can choose to click or not to click and clicks count. If she doesn't bring the traffic, her stay at Chowhound will be limited.

                                            24 Replies
                                            1. re: NE_Elaine

                                              i'm 50. a published author. a poet. i have both imagination and a command of the language. i use the word "fuck" often - sometimes in anger, sometimes in humor, sometimes in a sexual context. I use it as a noun, a verb, and in the gerund form as an adjective. sometimes all in one sentence.

                                              i teach my child that there are no bad words, or only different situations which make certain language more or less appropriate.

                                              yes freedom of speech does not apply here, but an understanding of what freedom of speech is about does - namely laws protecting free speech exist to protect unpopular or offensive speech. popular speech needs no protection.

                                              1. re: thew

                                                Holy shit, I think I completely agree with thew!

                                              2. re: NE_Elaine

                                                Can someone please explain to me why Chowhound deletes posts that it deems controversial? This happened to me once-there was no off color language involved. I asked a fellow poster why he was always so negative about every restaurant he went to, and yet allows four letter words, which some might well find quite offensive.

                                                1. re: Maryld

                                                  Because getting into talking about perceived "personal" attributes of each other would be a flame fest that makes the biggest forest fire ever to light up the skies of this world look minor by comparison. As the mod's have said here many times over the years - Rate the chow, not the chowhound.

                                                  1. re: Servorg

                                                    Well, you've all made the point I was edging around so beautifully. The f-word is bound to draw some attention...and for my money...that IS the only reason it's being used in a new column under the moniker RuBo. The 1st column drew attention, a good deal of it, from the use of a common word. But, this word has many diff intrepretations which (again) each of you has demonstrated. Enjoy your day, CH's!

                                                  2. re: Maryld

                                                    You can see our posting guidelines at: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/367605

                                                    Here's the relevant section for your question:

                                                    "Personal attacks and offensive language aimed at other posters are not permitted. Again: "Hate the chow, love the chowhound." A friendly, respectful environment encourages onlookers to offer their chow tips."

                                                    In general, we discourage posts which are directed to or about other posters. Our goal is to keep the focus on the chow, not the Chowhound, and when posters start to comment on how other posters are posting, even when the question may not be an outright personal attack, it usually heads downhill quickly. (Incidentally, we did email you about your deleted post, so if you didn't get that explanation, please do make sure your email address on file with us is up-to-date in case we need to contact you again.


                                                    As those guidelines also explain:

                                                    "Our policy on incidental vulgarity, obscenity, and general offensiveness in otherwise chow-ful postings is that anything is OK so long as it's not said in anger or is clearly intended to stir up trouble. Our role as moderators is not to shield all users from anything they might find offensive. If we tried to do so, there'd be literally no end to it, because many different people are offended by many different things. We ask that everyone show tolerance for different sorts of voices in our huge community. The alternative - a group with homogeneous ways of speaking and thinking - would not be good for this resource."

                                                    1. re: The Chowhound Team

                                                      Or in simple language, it's alright to write "oh f-word" but not "f-word you." :)

                                                      1. re: c oliver

                                                        On the other hand, if she really was calling you "sweetie"—and you are a grown woman—you are perfectly within your rights to tell her to knock it off. In fact, I think it's your responsibility. Something along the lines of "STOP FUCKING CALLING ME 'SWEETIE' YOU GODDAMNED MORON!" can be very effective. - from RuBo.

                                                        double-standard on what's allowable.

                                                        1. re: HillJ

                                                          Ah well, I'm trying hard to live with the uneveness of the moderation. I read the first Ru-Bo thing but didn't realize it was ongoing. I rarely look at Chow as I think so much of it is as dumbed down as anything I've ever seen regarding food, but I guess I should take a look.

                                                          And, yeah, don't call me fucking Sweetie!

                                                          1. re: HillJ

                                                            A hypothetical line to be uttered to a hypothetical waitress in a hypothetical restaurant, is very different from words directed by one member at another. As moderators, we concern ourselves with keeping the interaction amongst our members friendly and welcoming, but that's as far as it goes -- we're not able to make the real world more friendly and welcoming.

                                                            As an example, if, on one of those endless "my waiter wronged me, whatever shall I do?" etiquette threads on Not About Food, someone suggested "If that happened to me, I'd tell him to fuck off, then and there", we likely wouldn't remove that, unless the post had other problems. If someone had told the OP that the waiter hadn't done anything wrong, and the OP should just fuck off, we would remove that.

                                                            1. re: Jacquilynne

                                                              Jacq, I am very clear on what Mods would do under any scenario. I'm not so sure the message on hypothetical in one place and not allowed in another conveys anything more than splitting hairs.

                                                              RuBo's column is answering a member question. A CHOW member asking for advice and that advice is given by RuBo directly, to the point and contains a sentence offering words that on moderation under CH rules would be deleted.

                                                              Again, I understand the duality but I think it should be consistent.

                                                              1. re: HillJ

                                                                I don't see how this is inconsistent. If RuBo said "you're fucking stupid for even asking the question" then it's the same as a member-to-member personal attack and I agree, ought not to be permitted... but I don't see anyone saying it should be.

                                                                1. re: Chris VR

                                                                  Even less direct flames have been deleted by Mods. Don't understand it, the way I do, Chris VR. That's cool. I'm not alone in this conversation. But if I'm going to be singled out over a simple question about the use of the word fuck, I'm moving on. This is exactly what turns a healthy conversation into a heated one.

                                                                  1. re: HillJ

                                                                    Oh, sorry if you felt singled out! I didn't mean to do that. I just can't really understand your point.. but I'm having a "kids ate my brains" sort of day...

                                                                    1. re: Chris VR

                                                                      NP. Your opinion is your right..on any given day.

                                                                2. re: HillJ

                                                                  I wish it were consistent also but some reason the powers that be don't want it that way. So as to remain on topic, I won't get into specifics but quite a while back it was pointed out to me that someone was posting totally plagiarized recipes on Chow. It was reported to Chow and CH and, to my knowledge, nothing occured. I wish there was no link between the two sites because I think they have little in common. But, hey, I'm not yet Czarina of the Universe, a job I've wanted for quite a while.

                                                                  1. re: c oliver

                                                                    If I'm recalling the same report you are, I deleted those recipes myself.

                                                                    1. re: Jacquilynne

                                                                      Oh, thanks. It didn't happen quickly and I didn't look after a while. Kraft Food if I remember correctly. I apologize.

                                                          2. re: The Chowhound Team

                                                            I take no issue with CH posters using whatever language they like. I've been reading the site a long while and haven't actually come across more than maybe one or two swears.

                                                            What's getting my goat is the fact that Chow is including f--- in actual article titles that pop up alongside almost every page. Occasional use, fine, but don't plaster gratuitous obscenity all over the place. Would the article really get less clicks if it was titled "My Name Is Not F---ing Sweetie?"

                                                            I doubt it.

                                                            1. re: ratbuddy

                                                              There's was/is a title referring to Ecstasy the drug. If they stoop that low, then what's a few friendly fucks among friends???

                                                              1. re: c oliver

                                                                I guess it's the new, inventive ways that stooping is appearing. I've noticed it, more and more. Words, tone, photos, links. Never thought of myself as a prude. But, CH friends were chatting offline about the sudden changes to CHOW. How low will "it" go...before the rank and file start to divide over what clearly started out as harmless. As much as the CHOW/CH Board is referenced/kept separate, site wide it's viewed offline as one and the same.

                                                                1. re: c oliver

                                                                  well those are 2 things that go very very well together

                                                                2. re: ratbuddy

                                                                  I didn' t notice that until I saw you mention it here. I have a foul, foul mouth, and I even think that article title is gratuitous. Like shock TV, it's often more about 'grabbing' the reader/listener/revenue stream than it is about content.

                                                                  As for the moderators (who some others above have brought up) , language, discourse and meaning can be very difficult to judge, especially in the written and wild world of the internet. I try to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't doubt that what may appear inconsistent to the readers actually has quite a bit of internal logic. In fact, were anyone of us here given the task of taking it on, I bet that after a few minutes, we would be flabbergasted by moderating such a varied discussion.

                                                          3. I will defend the right to use the word and i will opine that is has absolutely no place on a site dedicated to finding good food.

                                                            29 Replies
                                                            1. re: jfood

                                                              Honestly? I agree with you. But the Chowhound powers obviously don't . I could live the rest of my life never using the f-word publicly. It makes me sad that they continue to bow to the lowest common denominator. But as they remind us, it's their site. I suspect/hope they occasionally bow their heads in shame.

                                                              1. re: jfood

                                                                "... and i will opine that is has absolutely no place on a site dedicated to finding good food."

                                                                Explain. Please.

                                                                1. re: ipsedixit

                                                                  sure I

                                                                  I am a firm believer in the first amendment right of free speech and i understand completely that the site is not "the government" as stated in the bill of rights."

                                                                  I also find the use of the f-word unnecessary in a site dedicated to finding good food. As a verb it could describe an incredibly great experience, or a incredibly bad one. It could be used as an expletive noun all alone. But in each case there are other words that can be used that do not offend others. It offends me when others use the word on this site and sometimes I stop reading the post, or take a more negative view of the poster. It has zero upside and could have downside.

                                                                  Now I am a big fan of Carlin and spent one weekend watching youtube videos and in that instance it had a purpose, it was the subject of a brilliant comedic monologue.

                                                                  But on a site dedicated to good food, it has no place and deserve none.

                                                                  hope that helps.

                                                                  1. re: jfood

                                                                    "But on a site dedicated to good food, it has no place and deserve none."

                                                                    And that, of course is the problem. You don't believe that this particular word belongs on a "food site" and someone else doesn't believe that any biblical word for their deity of choice ought to be used and someone else doesn't want the word "crap" used. Where does it stop? And who should decide? It's a slippery slope. One better left ungreased (and untrod upon).

                                                                    1. re: Servorg


                                                                      And i agree that it is slippery slope, but so are many items in life. where does pornography turn, where do white lies turn from harmful to white lies. That is the purpose of discussion and decisions. How much is too expensive? How high is up?

                                                                      There will be some that have a more strict opinion than others. I do not believe that because intelligent people do not want to make a hard decision that no decision is the answer.

                                                                      The site makes decisions all the time as a moderated site. This is just another decision to exclude a, b, and c. Some may like the decision and some may not. But that is no different than what we currently have.

                                                                      BTW - where in the Bible does the F-word appear.

                                                                      1. re: jfood

                                                                        "BTW - where in the Bible does the F-word appear."

                                                                        They substituted the B-word (begat).

                                                                        1. re: jfood

                                                                          but j, it's just like pornography and the definition of obscenity...it's a highly individual choice, not open to a broad interpretation that even applies to a majority.

                                                                          This is a site run by and carried by adults. As such, I truly don't believe that there's anyone reading here who hasn't heard the word on a nearly-daily basis in their life (as well as the rest of Carlin's list, plus a few dozen others)...and I'd be skeptical that there are more than a handful who haven't uttered it on at least one occasion. While I don't doubt that there are those who are offended, I refuse to believe that anyone is in any way harmed by the occasional expletive.

                                                                          As an adult, I bristle at the idea of someone washing my mouth out with soap...which is what censoring a few chosen words is doing.

                                                                          There are plenty of television programs I don't watch, and music I don't listen to, and websites I don't visit (ad infinitum) because I don't like the content. Never would I propose that those sites censor themselves to protect MY tastes.

                                                                          There's that old thing...I might not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

                                                                          1. re: sunshine842

                                                                            Ah but there is censorship on this site. I doubt highly if they would allow the N-word or the K-word or some words describing a restaurant in an inflammatory manner due to it's sexual orientation or religious descrimination.

                                                                            So as Winston Curchill once supposedly said to Lady Astor..."we have established what you are we are just negotiating the price." Unless ALL words are allowed then the line for yes/no has been established.

                                                                            I agree that the debate on which words should and should not be allowed is VERY difficult and will cause some angst on certain people. But this site is not a virgin in the snow, there are, thankfully certain words that I assume are not allowed. Some may want the list larger, others smaller.

                                                                            I am in the larger camp and others in the smaller, c'est la vie.

                                                                            1. re: jfood

                                                                              c'est la vie.

                                                                              this character bamboozled someone on the interview.

                                                                              easy enough to pass it by.

                                                                              1. re: jfood

                                                                                Again, as we state above,

                                                                                "Our policy on incidental vulgarity, obscenity, and general offensiveness in otherwise chow-ful postings is that anything is OK so long as it's not said in anger or is clearly intended to stir up trouble."

                                                                                Your example of someone using particular words to describe a restaurant in an inflammatory manner wouldn't meet that criteria, which is why it would be removed. If the intent is to offend or inflame the discussion, the post is out of bounds.

                                                                                1. re: jfood

                                                                                  Those other words you allude to are "fighting" words. There is no way to use them in any other context in casual conversation unless you fancy yourself Jonathan Swift and think you can pull of an essay without offending a lot of good folks. Using the f word in the context of "effing great" or "I was effed up after 3 martini's that night" are not. There is a definite difference. It's the difference in yelling "fire" in the proverbial crowded theater (when you know that there is no fire) and yelling "an effing great film" at the conclusion.

                                                                                  1. re: Servorg

                                                                                    agree that there are differences.

                                                                                    my point was that censorship is either a bright line or one with exceptions. once you cross the line into exceptions then opinions, safety and motivation come into play.

                                                                                    for example...if i remember my college readings 35 years ago it was the Brandenburg case in which the current rules were written. there were also certain justices, i think brennan and douglas who believed in the concept of no law meant no law and all words were in. please do not beat up on a 35YO memory, you get the point.

                                                                                    And i could probably use the words that are off-limits here that are decriptive and non-inflammatory. Heck, I switched to HBO and Tracey Morgan was using the F & N word as a major focus. Inflammatory, not really, but totally unneeded and made me turn the channel.

                                                                                    1. re: jfood

                                                                                      "and made me turn the channel"

                                                                                      That is the best form of censorship...enacted solely by those offended in a manner that doesn't keep others from watching/listening.

                                                                                      Your other words are quite likely to offend nearly anyone -- and as mentioned above, not really possible to use in any sort of a "passing" manner. They refer to others in an extraordinarily derogatory manner, whereas the f-word is, at the end of the day, just a word that YOU happen to dislike. As above...'nuptial' is a word that some of the upthread posters happen to dislike. But they are nothing more than a collection of letters, and no significant meaning attached to them.

                                                                                      Dropping the f-bomb in a public place is pretty unlikely to get you punched out...dropping the N-word (not 'nuptials', by the way....) or the K-word just might.

                                                                                  2. re: jfood

                                                                                    Ah but there is censorship on this site. I doubt highly if they would allow the N-word or the K-word or some words describing a restaurant in an inflammatory manner due to it's sexual orientation or religious descrimination.

                                                                                    Isn't that the crux of the issue, jfood?

                                                                                    It's all about context.

                                                                                    If I say, "I had a fucking great meal at Joe's diner" I don't there's anything inflammatory about it right?

                                                                                    But if I said, "That review of Joe's diner by jfood was fucking stupid" then it would obviously cross the line.

                                                                                    Same with the the N-word (presume you meant, nigger?). And what's the K-word?

                                                                                    Regardless, it's all about context, context, context ...

                                                                                    1. re: ipsedixit

                                                                                      "And what's the K-word?"

                                                                                      My question too.

                                                                                      1. re: MGZ

                                                                                        It rhymes with Nike. If you mispronounce it, as I like to do.

                                                                                        1. re: small h


                                                                                          Hasn't it been 50 years since Lenny Bruce illustrated the importance of demystifying all these words?

                                                                                          1. re: MGZ

                                                                                            maybe some do, but I am not one who changes his outlook on life because of Lenny Bruce, or any other entertainer.

                                                                                            1. re: jfood

                                                                                              that's b/c your outlook on life is the ideal to which we all aspire.

                                                                                              1. re: jfood

                                                                                                I'm surprised that someone's occupation would matter to your appreciation of the validity or importance of what they say. At bottom, when we render any word completely "off limits," we reinforce the stigma associated with it. In turm, that just makes the word more powerful for those who seek to offend.

                                                                                                1. re: MGZ

                                                                                                  1 - fair...Lenny Bruce's opinion does not mean squat to me irrespective of his profession, that was easy.

                                                                                                  2 - I did NOT render the word completely off limits. My initial post to which the responses are now ~30 deep was:

                                                                                                  "I will defend the right to use the word and i will opine that is has absolutely no place on a site dedicated to finding good food."

                                                                                                  1. re: jfood

                                                                                                    jfood - I respect you and your position on this issue. I was merely presenting the essence of the theory. I'm simply struck by how the same debate is still taking place a half century later, and that any word can still be so offensive.

                                                                                                    1. re: MGZ

                                                                                                      words are very powerful and the debate will probably take place when our children are our age. Although none of my children want to be my age. :-))

                                                                                        2. re: ipsedixit

                                                                                          I would say that both statements are inflammatory, but to differing degrees. I do not like either statement.

                                                                                          And for me, the n-word and homophobics do not pertain to me personally and my respond to inflammatory scale is much less than those that it is directed at. but i do not want to see it. that is why i would prefer a level of decorum on the use of all of them.

                                                                                          1. re: jfood

                                                                                            Let's look at the word "boy".

                                                                                            Used in two different contexts, it can have very very very different connotations, as well as inflammatory repercussions.

                                                                                            I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, but at the end of the day I just think the more we try to hide or censor supposedly "bad" or inflammatory words, the more efficacy and power we give those words.

                                                                                            It's sort of like the girl in the lingerie is always a bit more tawdry and sexy than the one that is completely nude.

                                                                                            Cheers, j.

                                                                                            1. re: ipsedixit

                                                                                              i completely understand and my jewish family was floored in 1979 when I thought it was OK for the KKK to march in Skokie IL, a predominantly jewish suburb. major fizzle on the march and back into the ostrich hole.

                                                                                              i just do not want to see the f-word on a site dedicated to food finds, just is wrong in my POV. Others disagree and that's OK as well.

                                                                                              Hey, I just ate two great hotdogs. And placing the f-word in front as an adjective may give positive emphasis to some, to me it would be a detractor.

                                                                                              s'est la vie, I.

                                                                                    2. re: jfood

                                                                                      when adam was f-ing all the animals in the garden of eden, among other places.
                                                                                      he "knew" them... carnally.
                                                                                      you do read hebrew, right? ;-)

                                                                            2. I pretty much got over my shock at the f-bomb when I began traveling to the UK regularly -- I heard it on television, on the radio, and as a regular expletive in normal conversations. It just doesn't carry the same "weight" that it does in the US.

                                                                              The final loss of importance attached to the word came when I was walking down the street in London and heard the bomb drop...turned around to see an elegant-looking little old lady with purple flowers on her hat, gesturing with her cane and dropping the word with a mastery rarely seen anywhere else.

                                                                              I figure if SHE can drop it and nobody falls over, then it's no big deal.

                                                                              1. Hmmm. In real life I use the F word more than occasionally, but I pick my audience for it. On chowhound one cannot pick who reads a post and I wouldn't think of offending the susceptible.

                                                                                It isn't about free speech; its about acting like a considerate grown-up.

                                                                                So I suggest that the posters self regulate.

                                                                                Yeah, that'll work.

                                                                                28 Replies
                                                                                1. re: gfweb1

                                                                                  "Yeah, that'll work."

                                                                                  I am not certain if you are being facetious or not? But if you are I say that it actually does work on this site (as far as I can see). We have a very low incidence of posters dropping the F bomb here.

                                                                                  1. re: Servorg

                                                                                    go to google and type the f-word and chowhound. 46,900 hits. granted not all of them are chowhound threads with the f-word, but it gives an indication.

                                                                                    1. re: jfood

                                                                                      What I see are a lot of hits that have no relationship to the Chowhound site at all.

                                                                                      1. re: Servorg

                                                                                        and for all of those that do not relate, here is one endorced by the powers


                                                                                        was this necessary in the title? did i need to see this as that headline on the right column at 8AM on a saturday morning? I cannot move on because every time i open the site it slaps me in the face

                                                                                        you may not want to censor the posters but please at least have some decency on the drafting of headlines.

                                                                                        just sayin'

                                                                                        1. re: jfood

                                                                                          which is exactly where this OP began. etiquette hell...oh the irony.

                                                                                          1. re: jfood

                                                                                            Any others? If this is an isolated case, especially considering all of the posts and threads and articles spread between Chowhound and Chow, I think that the problem is being elevated from something even smaller than a molehill into a form and size that has no real relation to the issue at hand.

                                                                                            1. re: Servorg

                                                                                              Servorg, RuBo's column is a new offering on CHOW covering etiquette. The elevation thus far is based on the first installment. Boardreader.com can provide stats if that is something you wish to track.

                                                                                              1. re: Servorg

                                                                                                we have threads that discuss whether to place ketchup on a hotdog. opening the site and seeing the f-word is definitely a topic that the posters should weign in on so the powers can possibly place it on an agenda to discuss at a staff meeting.

                                                                                                1. re: Servorg

                                                                                                  I see a lack of judgment re Chow titles more often than I think I should. Like the "Ecstasy" title I mentioned above.

                                                                                                  1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                    oh, now the word 'ecstasy' is a problem? or the fact that someone is referring to a drug on this site?

                                                                                                    1. re: linguafood

                                                                                                      I was commenting on a Chow title that used an illegal drug. I think Chow is the ultimate LCD (lowest common denominator) food venue. To me (only), it's the food equivalent of the tabloids at the checkstands in the grocery. They use words like that to get you to open the article (same as buying magazine.

                                                                                                      1. re: c oliver

                                                                                                        wow, if you think that the people who read and contribute to chowhound are lowest common denominator--folks who would otherwise spend their time looking at gossip mags (note that i don't say read gossip mags because that implies literacy), jerry springer and COPS. . . what do you think of the folks who read and contribute to yelp?

                                                                                                        i think the public perception, if there is one, of this site is that it's a bit, uh. . . elitist, ivory-tower, stodgy, um. . . aimed at older folks. one excellent chef told me he reads every single chowhound post in the "niles crane from frazier" voice. i think we need to at least entertain the thought that the powers that be of the site may be consciously *trying* to shake things up a bit with the rubo and the ecstasy article etc--in order to appeal to more than one audience, and give the appearance of the site being more "young" and "fun" than the historic reputation of the site would imply.

                                                                                                        1. re: soupkitten

                                                                                                          soupkitten, I was referring to CHOW not Chowhound. I thought I'd made that distinction. I think the former is pathetic and the latter is wonderful. I wish the former could be split off so I never have to see it again. I love the latter. I've looked at yelp only rarely and just find it cumbersome. I honestly don't need the site to be more "young" and "fun." I have loads of things in my life that satisfy those cravings. If other do, that's fine.

                                                                                                2. re: jfood

                                                                                                  @jfood, Right, and that's all I was saying. I use the f-word myself when it's appropriate, and I wouldn't be at all offended if a poster used it (or other dirty words) in proper context. I just think it's a bad decision for the site itself to gratuitously plaster it around.

                                                                                                  1. re: ratbuddy

                                                                                                    thanks for clarifying rat because when i read your OP i was not sure. I think you may have meant "reconsider" versus "consider".

                                                                                                    1. re: jfood

                                                                                                      Indeed, I meant "reconsider" or "consider not," just a little brain-o.

                                                                                                      edit: I looked again, and I did indeed mean consider, as in 'consider using 'f---' instead of 'fuck' in the titles as displayed on other pages within Chow.'

                                                                                                      1. re: ratbuddy

                                                                                                        fair point...it's that NJ syntax that gets in the way of understanding language some times.

                                                                                                        1. re: ratbuddy

                                                                                                          that's silly. if you type f--- we all know you mean "fuck" we all read it as "fuck" so what fucking difference could it make?

                                                                                                    2. re: jfood

                                                                                                      "a slap in the face" - really? really??

                                                                                                      gimme a fucking break.

                                                                                                      1. re: linguafood

                                                                                                        there is another thread in which a very civil discussion turns bad by a couple of posters who come in and start flaming and then the thread gets locked.

                                                                                                        you may want to read that one m'am.

                                                                                                        1. re: jfood

                                                                                                          well, i do remember another thread quite well about drink names which had been pretty civil, and in which your addressing me was much less (faux) polite.

                                                                                                          thankfully, i am not nearly as offended by words than you seem to be, but many others would consider being called a bitch rude, inappropriate, and offensive - not least to say misogynist.

                                                                                                          that's probably why your post was deleted. huh. go figure.

                                                                                                  2. re: jfood

                                                                                                    out of how many words total? that seems like half a statistic to me. 46,900 out of 50,000 words would be excessive. 46,900 out of 500,000,000 words - not so much.

                                                                                                    1. re: thew

                                                                                                      Actually the proper search would be site:chow.com fuck, resulting in http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&am...

                                                                                                      Only 268 hits. If you add a -bourdain to exclude those pages, it's only 117 results. ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&am... ) I'd say the word is (er, was) pretty much never used here.

                                                                                                      1. re: ratbuddy

                                                                                                        You must be the age of my kids cause they know how to use this stuff way better than this 54YO. That's a much better search (less entertaining though), then mine. TY

                                                                                                        But I would disagree with 268 is "never used". I would view it as 268 times more than necessary to convey the point.

                                                                                                        Different strikes.

                                                                                                        1. re: jfood

                                                                                                          necessary is a poor guide. very very little is necessary in life. water, air, a few nutrients - maybe something to keep one warm in the cold. that's about it for necessity. on a site dedicated to food, not as necessary, but in all it's ridiculously wonderful variations and glory, necessity is an especially funny concern

                                                                                                        2. re: ratbuddy

                                                                                                          > I'd say the word is (er, was) pretty much never used here.

                                                                                                          I'm trying not to take this as a challenge . . .

                                                                                                        3. re: thew

                                                                                                          those are all fair statistics and conclusions.

                                                                                                          if there is one person in America who is unemployed or suffers from a life-threatening disease and that person is you, then the one is way more important to you.

                                                                                                          If certain words do not disturb you, then read away. for me I do not find the use of that word on this site an additive feature. To me it detracts versus adds.

                                                                                                          Sorta different strokes time.

                                                                                                  3. Since everyone else on CH is weighing in . . .

                                                                                                    "Fuck" is a part of my everyday vocabulary--and I'm sure there are millions of people (including some Chow staff, apparently) with the same habits. I don't think it's for shock value; this is the way many people speak, and we don't think anything of it. I'm sure there are just as many if not more people who would never dream of using such a vulgar world. There are of course many websites where such a word would be cleansed from comments and posts; perhaps websites aimed at Christians and children are more appropriate for those who find the word offensive? I suspect Martha Stewart's board may also be safe (and I love Martha, btw).

                                                                                                    Speaking of which, I don't understand why some words are "bad." Why is "fuck" a bad word while "rape" is not? Why "shit" and not "feces" or "poop" or "murder"? It all seems completely arbitrary to me. They're just words. And in this context, "fuck" is used for emphasis, not even to describe a sexual act. Jeez, people. ;)

                                                                                                    6 Replies
                                                                                                    1. re: guilty

                                                                                                      perhaps websites aimed at Christians and children are more appropriate for those who find the word offensive? I suspect Martha Stewart's board may also be safe (and I love Martha, btw).

                                                                                                      I am neither and do not like MS

                                                                                                      Oh where is my buddy Karl S to answer the last paragraph? I will do my best though. It's called manners and decorum. There are certain items that are accepted in the social norms. There are certain things one does and does not do at parties, at work, at retail stores at restaurants. The social contract is the best way to describe it other than manners. There are just different interpretations od the dos and donts of that contract.

                                                                                                      1. re: jfood

                                                                                                        Ah, I suppose it's my mystification at these "social norms" that's at the root of my "problem." However, considering the presence of the (awesome) new RuBo column, I think that I'm in line with this site on being OK with the use of . . . the f word.

                                                                                                        1. re: guilty

                                                                                                          how would you feel if your nine YO sat at the dinner table and every noun was accompanied by the f-word. I am sure there is not oine parent if they were honest with themselves would say that is OK.

                                                                                                          1. re: jfood

                                                                                                            It would have been ok with me when my son was nine. Of course, he would go "DAAAAD!" whenever I said it.

                                                                                                            Besides, Chow is not targeting nine year olds as the core audience. And since the editors of Chow chose to put that piece up, you may assume that the social contract on *their* site is what they say it is. You are of course, free to leave if it's not to your liking.

                                                                                                            1. re: JonParker

                                                                                                              Yup, it is their site and i am glad they separated the two. i do not use Chow. I find it mindless and targets a demographic i am glad I am not part of. They have a different social contract than I would sign. Likewise there are TV shows I do not watch, magazines I do not read and other websites I do not look at.

                                                                                                              Its a great big world and we all get to play in the sandbox we are comfortable with.

                                                                                                      2. re: guilty

                                                                                                        Is it completely lost in this conversation that the use of the word fuck is part of a new column about manners? That members will be encouraged to write in, as they did with the past columnist, for advice. That the words and advice being hightened by said advice giver is what raised these questions in the first place? Instead we sidetracked into (altho fun & interesting) the rights of people, the singular use of a word, the inconsistencies of moderation, the this and that. It's the context of the word fuck/the advice column, on a site about food, in a column about manners that threw me. Hilarious as many points have been. I was thrown by the casual context CHOW, a food magazine, took.

                                                                                                        And while this has been "fun"... I don't want you all to think I don't have a sense of humor :)


                                                                                                      3. Posters who are offended by swear words might be happier on the politically conservative site townhall.com where the filter takes out not only swear words but (among others) the names of venereal diseases, the Latin word for "with", the Spanish word for "black", an aribitrary selection of non-swear words (I know that "hillbilly" is one), and the dollar sign. Once you start, ratbuddy. Once you start.

                                                                                                        6 Replies
                                                                                                        1. re: Querencia

                                                                                                          I was once on a cooking site where the filter replaced the word "cucumber" with asterisks, I assume because of the third, fourth and fifth letters. I really did laugh out loud at that one.

                                                                                                          1. re: JonParker

                                                                                                            I've been censored trying to talk about shitake mushrooms.

                                                                                                            1. re: chowser

                                                                                                              A message board I post on has one of those censor-bots. I figured out pretty quickly why "cocktail" didn't make it through. But "spoon" took me a while.

                                                                                                              1. re: small h

                                                                                                                Censor bots are dumb in general. What got to me about the one that caught me was that it was a site specifically devoted to food. Cucumber is a pretty common ingredient.

                                                                                                                1. re: small h

                                                                                                                  I'm not getting spoon. I'll have to think about it.

                                                                                                                  1. re: chowser

                                                                                                                    I will give you a hint: Ted Nugent.

                                                                                                          2. I remember a chowhound thread on funny menu translations in ethnic restaurants; one Chinese menu offered a dish named Fuck a Bullfrog. I would have hated to miss that.

                                                                                                            1. Now that I think of it, I wonder what advertisers like Sears and CBS would think of such content. Hmmm....

                                                                                                              6 Replies
                                                                                                              1. re: ratbuddy

                                                                                                                CBS isn't an advertiser it's the owner of CNET and Chow and if you think Sears cares about advertising on a site uses the work "fuck" you are free to contact them but I doubt you'll get much of a response.

                                                                                                                1. re: reatard

                                                                                                                  CBS does not put the f-word on its TV episodes and there are many companies that pull advertisements for social reasons.

                                                                                                                  1. re: jfood

                                                                                                                    But CBS is owned by Viacom and there are plenty of Viacom projects that contain the word fuck.

                                                                                                                    1. re: jfood

                                                                                                                      if cbs thought they could get higher ratings without the FCC coming down on them for it, they would have a show called "fucking fucks and the fucks who fuck them." it's not a moral issue.

                                                                                                                      1. re: thew

                                                                                                                        And there are people who would find that funny and others that would shake their heads in shame that the airwaves have gone from the gutter and into the sewer. I feel very comfortable in being a person that fits in the second category.

                                                                                                                  2. re: ratbuddy

                                                                                                                    Because we know that sponsors don't like to advertise alongside content that may be deemed offensive by some part of the populace. For instance, if you watch an episode of South Park, you'll notice there are no commer--oh wait, never mind.

                                                                                                                  3. i'm guessing at this point searching for "fuck" on CH will yield a few more results '-)

                                                                                                                    let's all keep our fingers crossed that the world won't come to an end.

                                                                                                                    16 Replies
                                                                                                                    1. re: linguafood

                                                                                                                      Small wonder the US is devolving into a second tier nation. At the same time the Chinese are teaching their children well, a bunch of smart Americans waste countless hours talking about fuck in all its permutations.

                                                                                                                      1. re: Veggo

                                                                                                                        ROFL, now this is really getting entertaining. You people are hilarious.
                                                                                                                        RuBo is bound to be an overnight sensation with all the twitching going on. And you didn't get my reaction-HA! Too bad this conversation isn't taking place over a great meal, it would be far more educational....and delicious.

                                                                                                                        1. re: Veggo

                                                                                                                          The thread isn't really about permutations of the word as much as discussion of a constitutional right to use it, freedom to use it among others away from the constitional aspect of it, responsibility of speech given that we do have that freedom and being mindful if others take offense. Of course, the issue isn't prevalent in China.

                                                                                                                          1. re: chowser

                                                                                                                            You are correct, the issue isn't prevalent in China. China is particularly adroit at applying its human capital constructively.

                                                                                                                            1. re: Veggo

                                                                                                                              Would you prefer our government can control us that way, too, and just as cheaply? Really, the Chinese don't spend hours talking about where to get the most delicious foods, either, when you come right down to it.

                                                                                                                              1. re: chowser

                                                                                                                                really, the issue at hand is whether we police the language here or elsewhere because *someone*, *somewhere*, will be offended about *something*.

                                                                                                                                but there is no right to not be offended.

                                                                                                                                1. re: chowser

                                                                                                                                  The Chinese paradigm is a spectacular success, their population living better every year. America is worse off for this century.
                                                                                                                                  What's objectionable to teaching our children, rather than expending energy on the F word? The freedom of speech thing is absurdly irrelevant for this diminimus topic.

                                                                                                                                  1. re: Veggo

                                                                                                                                    Yup spectacular success...

                                                                                                                                    - polluted air such that you cannot breathe
                                                                                                                                    - water so polluted it cannot be cleaned
                                                                                                                                    - manufacturing standards that kill innocent children around the world

                                                                                                                                    yup we are very much worse off...insert sarcastic emoticon.

                                                                                                                                    1. re: jfood

                                                                                                                                      All of which are predictable consequences of unimaginable growth, and will be remedied by smart graduates who didn't spend all day texting while their parents deliberated the F word.
                                                                                                                                      And yes, America has declined by every econometric yardstick this century, jfood, you know that.

                                                                                                                                      1. re: Veggo

                                                                                                                                        i agree that they do not txt all day versus their american counterpart. i told my kids as they left for college to befriend a chinese student as they have better notes than the professor and you can trade them by taking them to music venues.

                                                                                                                                        and i do not contemplate using the f-word, i just do not use it but today was our day off intermittent with a little chanukkah shopping.

                                                                                                                                        yup econometric yardsticks are pretty devastating for the last few US quarters, but China is just awful as an environment to live, both politically, economically, socially politically, and by tons of other yardsticks.

                                                                                                                                        1. re: Veggo

                                                                                                                                          Wow, all because we're discussing fuck on CH, America has declined by every econometric yardstick this century. What power.

                                                                                                                                      2. re: Veggo

                                                                                                                                        Hmm, this makes very little sense... My son is in the other room "expending energy" singing a song that contains the word fuck and also doing AP physics homework. Apparently he can do both at the same time.

                                                                                                                                        1. re: Veggo

                                                                                                                                          Feel free to join them. My parents brought our family to this country from there because of the wonderful opportunities here, including freedoms they wouldn't have had. It could mean spending hours doing what we want with our free time, and just appreciating having the free time. It could mean having the free time to reprimand others on what they choose to spend their free time on. If you feel it's better in China where people don't have the free time to spend on message boards, either discussing an issue or reprimanding others about the discussion, you could do the same and move there. We're all adults. Even if someone wanted to spend free time discussing iterations of the word fuck, why do you feel the need to reprimand other adults?

                                                                                                                                          1. re: chowser

                                                                                                                                            Back on topic, I am disappointed by the widespread use and acceptance of vulgar language, and I wish parents would set better examples and household norms.

                                                                                                                                            1. re: Veggo

                                                                                                                                              I agree. I have used the word more in this thread than I ever have in my life, I think.

                                                                                                                                              My problem isn't with the word itself and I tend to ignore it but I also know there are people who are offended by it so I don't use it (added to which I've never used it so it just feels awkward to me). Personally, it doesn't add anything to what I'm saying but it does detract when it offends others.

                                                                                                                                              1. re: chowser

                                                                                                                                                Peace. And please know that I cited the Chinese example of teaching as one I truly admire, in contrast to slothful uncaring American parents.

                                                                                                                              2. Folks, this thread is getting ridiculously off-topic, not to mention kind of unfriendly, so we're going to lock it now.