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Which knife do I go with?

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Leftychefty Dec 1, 2010 05:54 PM

Hi everyone! I need help with choosing my newest weapon! I'm trying to decide between a Global G-2, a Watanabe gyuto and a Messermeister Japanese chef's knife (gyuto). From what I gather, the mess is made in Seki, Japan, although I'm not sure of in what facility.
Does anyone know anything about these particular lines??
Oh, by the way, I'm a lefty (as the name states! Haha).
Thanks!

  1. Chemicalkinetics Dec 1, 2010 06:44 PM

    Are you chefty too (as the name states)? Let me first say, I do not own any of these, so please takes my comment with a grain of salt.

    If it is me, I would get Watanabe gyuto. There are two reasons. The first reason is more gut's feeling. Watanabe knives are made in person with close attention. So it is both a knife and an art. My second reason is that Watanabe gyuto are blue steel cutting core and may or maynot have stainless steel (depending the lines), so they have good cutting edges, but Watanabe knives are more expensive compared to the other two:

    http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/pro/gyuto.htm

    http://www.chefknivestogo.com/wablst24gy.html

    Both Global and Messermeister knives are a bit on the softer side when we are talking about Japanese knife. For example, Messermiester gyutos are 57-58 HRC and that is only mariginally harder than say the inexpensive Dexter-Russell knives (56 HRC) and much softer than Shun Classic knives (61 HRC).

    http://www.cutleryandmore.com/details...

    P.S.; There are different lines of Watanbe, different lines of Messermeister... you may want to be specific which lines you are refering to.

    12 Replies
    1. re: Chemicalkinetics
      l
      Leftychefty Dec 1, 2010 08:03 PM

      Thanks for the input. I'm a p/t chefty now! The hours weren't conducive to having a wife, so I became a firefighter instead...where coincidentally, I'm the "platoon chef". Haha. I love every minute of it, though!
      As for the lines I'm looking at, I'm under the impression that the Japanese series by Messermeister are all the same steel. Call me crazy, but I like their most basic line's looks AND the top MU micarta line.
      How do you feel about the left handed carbon steel Nakkiri by Watanabe? I have a small Nakkiri that I love for juliening, etc and I think the 7 inch could act as a chef's knife with a super thin edge. I sometimes use my Nakkiri for a quick dice or mince, and often when I want translucent garlic for building oil based sauces, etc. Anything I might need a pointed tip for can be done with my 6 inch petty or my 1976 Henckels that I inherited from my dad. The price on the Watanabe carbon Nakkiri is almost too good to pass up...especially in left handed.
      Oh, decisions, decisions!
      Man I love this stuff!

      1. re: Leftychefty
        Chemicalkinetics Dec 1, 2010 08:20 PM

        :)

        Well, I think the Messermesiter Japanese knves are very similar but the Asian Precision line is 57-58 HRC, while Mu-Knife versions are 58 HRC, just a touch harder.

        Sorry I do not have a Watanabe Nakiri. I thought about getting it, but I went inexpensive got a Tanaka Nakiri. I do hope to get this Watanabe Nakiri one day:

        http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/...

        So which Watanabe nakiri do you have?

        1. re: Chemicalkinetics
          l
          Leftychefty Dec 1, 2010 09:20 PM

          I don't have a Watanabe nakiri, but a - you knife nuts aren't going to like this- a Calphalon Katana 5" nakiri that I actually love! I wrote Calphalon and asked specifically, the HRC and was told it's a 58...I steepened the angle a couple degrees and I love it's performance. Sorry to tell you that! Haha
          Do you think a 7" nakiri from Watanabe could fill in as a Japanese style chef's knife, considering the Japanese didn't even use chef's knives until (somewhat) recently?
          While I'm at it...I hate to do this, but I'm curious...what do you think of the Calphalon Katana line? I feel the prices are way out of line, but for the right price....by the way, my little nakiri was 25 bucks! Honestly, it was a steal!
          So, no to Global???

          1. re: Leftychefty
            Chemicalkinetics Dec 1, 2010 10:11 PM

            :) Sorry I misread. I thought you ask how do I like your Watanabe Nakiri. :D

            I don't own Calphalon Katana nakiri, but I have touched it and I know it is made of a decent steel. VG-1. Cheaper than VG-10, but not necessary worst. Some people believe VG-1 is underrated. What I am concern about the Calphalon Katana line is the strange area between the blade and the handle which makes them more difficult to be sharpened on a stone. . I also think it is too handle heavy.

            http://www.amazon.com/Calphalon-Katana-Stainless-Steel-7-Inch-Nakiri/dp/B000AAT6YG/ref=sr_1_13?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1291273073&sr=1-13

            Again, these are personal preference. Wusthof Ikon knives are also handle heavy and some people love Ikon for that and some dislike Ikon.

            That fused area makes it difficult to lay these knives low on a flat stone and therefore difficult to sharpen.

            Yes, I do think a Nakiri can fill as a Chef's knife in many ways. In fact, for Japanese, the Nakiri or the Santoku knives are their main knives. I don't think most Japanese use German or French Chef's knives as the main knives. The Professional version of Watanabe Nakiri is very highly regarded.

            http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/...

            Is that the one you are considering?

            I don't think Global knives are bad in the general sense. They are just not my style. Strange handle (to me), semi-hard steel but not much harder than a Henckels or a Wusthof, several people here complained about knives snapped in the middle. I am sure it does not happen all that often, but they do received more "snapping" complaints than other knives on this website.

            1. re: Chemicalkinetics
              l
              Leftychefty Dec 1, 2010 10:45 PM

              Hmmm. It's so hard and so much fun to try to figure out which one will be the next on my magnetic rack! Glad to hear another knife nut not bashing the Katana which for some reason, I seem to have a soft spot! As I said, I use it all the time and find it's a real asset in the kitchen!
              So, basically, I'm stuck longing for a Global G-2, a Watanabe Nakkiri (either model will do), a Watanabe Gyuto (the one you mentioned), a Katana 7" nakiri, and...
              Maybe I'll just hand this list off to my wife and say "any of these would make this the best Xmas ever!" haha
              I can honestly say I don't need any of them, but I love all of them for their own reasons.
              How do you feel about general daily maintenance of these knives? My stone skills aren't great yet and I don't want to hurt my babies. I have some knives that I don't mind practicing on, so I'll keep trying!
              Can I hone any of these (other than the Katana)? I find it's almost muscle memory and habit from honing before each prep for so long.

              1. re: Leftychefty
                cowboyardee Dec 1, 2010 11:46 PM

                I've sharpened the carbon Watanabe Nakiri, and it is really a great little knife. It is very thin, with a nice grind and solid core steel capable of taking and holding a very fine edge.

                The thing is, the knives you are comparing - the watanabe nakiri, Global G2 gyuto, Katana nakiri, and watanabe gyuto are so different that they defy comparison.

                I will say that I'm not a fan of the Katana nakiri (sorry), but that is mainly because of the grind - it's not as thin and precise as a nakiri should be. But if you intend to use it as a substitute for a chef's knife, that may be a good thing for you. The watanabe nakiri is a bit more fragile. As to whether a nakiri can substitute for a chefs knife - that depends on what you cook. If you cook a lot of meat, a nakiri is not an ideal meat slicer due to its short length, nor a meat trimmer due to its lack of a pointed tip. The pointed tip of a chefs knife can also help with detail work or tasks like coring without changing knives. If you mainly do a lot of vegetable prep, a nakiri will substitute well for a chefs knife.

                The Watanabe gyuto is a thin, carbon steel, semi handmade knife. And its price reflects that. Like the Watanabe nakiri, there's not much point of having one if you (or someone) can't maintain it on a stone, so keep working on it.

                The G2 and the Messermeister are each very different knives in their own rite, and I typically wouldn't recommend them to the same person I'd recommend a Watanabe. What knives do you have so far that all of these are up for consideration for your next purchase?

                As for honing, you can hone any of these - smooth steel, glass rod, or ceramic hone preferred, especially for the Watanabes. You don't really need to bother though unless you work in a restaurant or something else where you need to hone quickly and on the fly. On the other hand, it might help to preserve the edge of your new knife while you keep learning to sharpen on stones - to buy you some time.

                1. re: cowboyardee
                  l
                  Leftychefty Dec 2, 2010 12:36 AM

                  I've seen your posts on here and I was hoping you'd join in on this thread, so "welcome"!
                  I'm constantly working on my ability to sharpen on my stones, but every now and then I get too steep for a stroke or two and it shows up on the blade, but does not affect the edge itself. It's basically esthetics, but I want my Japanese knives looking like the show pieces they really are! - this is the main reason for me not really wanting another Katana, because while it looks great (to some) and in my experience outperforms my good friend's Yoshihiro, it's not truly Japanese, but really Chinese-American, and somewhat inspired by Japanese blades. ---on a side note, Cowboy, what do you think of vg-1 steel??
                  As far as which knife I'm in need of, I have to admit, I don't need any, but just really want a Japanese knife! Haha
                  I currently have more German steel than a war museum, and a petty style knife by a little known Portuguese company called Icel. I picked it up in Lisbon and just loved the thin and nimble feeling of the razor sharp stamped blade. I use it, my little nakiri and my Henckels chef's knife most often. If I'm dealing with something frozen or stubborn I take out my Shi-ba-zi Chinese cleaver (it was 12 bucks, so I'm not too concerned with hurting it).
                  The great feeling of the little Portuguese knife and my Katana are what have lead me to a true Japanese knife. I want the size of my old Henckels chef, but the feeling I get with my petty or nakiri. If at all possible, I would love to keep in mind ease of maintenance. However, my friend with the Yoshihiros sharpens "professionally", so I'm covered there.
                  So, what do you recommend for a lefty looking for something along those lines, who also seems to really be drawn to a Global, even though many purists seem to hate them?
                  On a side note, have you ever heard of Icel?

                  1. re: Leftychefty
                    Chemicalkinetics Dec 2, 2010 12:55 AM

                    I especially agree with cowboy on one point: the three knives (Watanabe, Global and Messermeister) you are considering are very different. Maybe you can tell us just one or two reaons why you are considering each and that may give us a better idea what you are really looking for.

                    You said that you don't really need another knife, but just want a Japanese knife. If that is truely the case, then Watanabe fits that well -- among the three choices. Alternatively, you may want to consider another Japanese knife, but at a lower price point just to play around. First, it will save you money. Second, it can be a great sharpening practice target. If you like a carbon steel Nakiri knife, I think this Tojiro Nakiri and Tanaka Nakiri are fun to play with:

                    http://www.chefknivestogo.com/toshna161.html

                    http://www.chefknivestogo.com/takuna16.html

                    If you want a gyuto, then a Tojiro is a good buy:

                    http://www.chefknivestogo.com/tojiro-dp-f-8081.html

                    Mark from Chefknivestogo thinks a Fujiwara FKH gyuto is a great knife to ease into Japanese cutlery:

                    http://www.chefknivestogo.com/fujiwar...

                    1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                      l
                      Leftychefty Dec 2, 2010 01:39 AM

                      Good thinking Chem!
                      I'll start with the Global, since I've handled it in person:
                      I like the geometry of the blade (not too much belly - I tried a Shun Classic and it felt heavier than my old Henckels and the blade seemed relatively thick compared to the Global), I really like the weight and overall feel. It reminded me of my petty that I seem to use A LOT! The handle seemed fine to me, considering I grip it in a pinch since it's not a battle axe. There's a 50/50 bevel, so no worries about the hand of the knife, and my friend sharpens many Globals and said he really doesn't mind doing it.
                      The Watanabe seems really intriguing to me because it will be coming directly from Japan and will be left handed (am I right?). I love the classic styling of the knives and will be proud to show it off...what can I say, I'm a little into myself! Haha. My biggest concern would have to be that I don't really want to spend 200+ dollars on a foray into Japanese blades. The nakiri caught my interest because of the reasonable price tag, however I'm really looking to get the same feel and use as my petty but in chef knife form, so a nakiri likely doesn't make sense after all.
                      As far as the Messermeister is concerned, I have to be honest, I have a friend who gets them straight from the distributor for an incredible price. A true Japanese gyuto for less than a Tojiro dp is hard to pass up. However, I don't get that warm fuzzy feeling from any of their Japanese knives, but if they're a really good deal....
                      I've handled a Tojiro dp gyuto and I guess I wasn't all that impressed, so I'll have to say no to it. I'm a big feel guy with my equipment, food and even my golf game. It just didn't feel right.
                      The Fujiwara looked really interesting to me. Do you know of anything in that price range with that typically Japanese feeling ad a Wa handle?
                      Thanks again

                      1. re: Leftychefty
                        l
                        Leftychefty Dec 2, 2010 02:53 AM

                        What do you two think of the Misono Swedish Steel Gyuto? It's got that power that I mentioned earlier.

                        1. re: Leftychefty
                          Chemicalkinetics Dec 2, 2010 05:43 AM

                          Here is a list of Wa-Gyuto from Chefknivestogo, but I am sure there are plenty others from other sources. Too lazy to look up:

                          http://www.chefknivestogo.com/wa-gyut...

                          I think if you have some what set your heart into Global, then you should get one then.

                          1. re: Leftychefty
                            cowboyardee Dec 2, 2010 09:30 AM

                            I'll try to answer a bunch of unrelated questions:

                            First off, I am not familiar with Icel knives. Look cool though.

                            As for VG-1 steel - I think it is a perfectly good steel for a kitchen knife. It seems to take a nice edge, but not hold it as long as VG-10 (which only has moderate edge retention, btw). I've heard some people note that vg-1 chips easily, though I haven't personally come across a chipped-to-hell vg-1 knife. It seems to me that vg-1 might be one of those steels whose properties vary wildly with heat treatment. Cold steel, calphalon Katana, and possibly Nenox s1 all use vg-1, and the edges of those knives are not usually said to behave all that similarly. For Nenox specifically, rumors that it uses VG-1 generally carry the implication that it's not a good steel for the money. But then again, we're talking a $500 knife that many people are quite happy with. At that price, unless the steel is cowry-x or ZDP-189, you're paying for the craftsmanship, not the core steel. I certainly wouldn't avoid a cheaper knife just because it was made of VG-1.

                            Third - don't concern yourself with whether a bevel is 50/50 or right handed vs left handed. Single-bevel knives are hand-specific (as are some handles), but a left handed person can very comfortably use a knife that is beveled 80-20 righty. I'm left handed, and my favorite knife is beveled 70-30 righty. An asymmetrical bevel is to improve geometry, not favor one hand over the other. Attempts to change or flip an asymmetrical bevel generally result in weakening or even ruining a knife, so don't consider paying someplace like korin to do it for you. Single-beveled knives on the other hand - lefties like you and I are screwed.

                            As for the Global - if you like it go right ahead. One of my biggest reservations about recommending it to people is that some don't like how the handle feels. I often recommend tojiro DP instead because it has most of the upsides of a global (geometry, performance, lower pricetag) without many of the Global's downsides (hard to sharpen, handle is awkward, on rare occasions known to break in two). But if you don't like the feel of the Tojiro, the Global is a nice knife that performs quite well. (BTW - you actually might like the Tojiro DP wa gyuto - same great blade as the regular DP, traditional Japanese Wa handle changes the feel significantly, still quite affordable http://www.chefknivestogo.com/todpwa24.html

                            )

                            Here is a big selection of wa-gyutos. Many of the affordable ones- like the sugimoto 210mm - I'm not familiar with.
                            http://www.chefknivestogo.com/wa-gyut...

                            You might like the misono swedish steel gyuto, but you'll likely find that it feels similar in the hand to the Tojiro DP, though the handle is less boxy.

                            If you already have your basic needs covered and you just want to try out a Japanese knife, that Watanabe nakiri is a good place to start, assuming you can deal with the carbon steel aspect of it.

        2. tanuki soup Dec 2, 2010 03:35 AM

          Since it seems from earlier posts in this thread that you are open to considering other Japanese knives, allow me to suggest my favorite - Glestain. The huge dimples are really effective in releasing the food you are slicing, especially things like potatoes and eggplant. Glestain knives are truly unique and quite striking -- also available for lefties.

          PS. I have a Global G-2 and like it fine, but I almost always reach for my Glestain santoku instead.

          Here's a link to a site that sells Glestain knives: http://korin.com/Shop/Glestain

          And here's a pic showing Glestain's range of gyutos:

           
          5 Replies
          1. re: tanuki soup
            l
            Leftychefty Dec 2, 2010 03:46 AM

            They are very nice to look at! Are the dimples far enough away from the edge that sharpening wouldn't be an issue 5. Or 10 years down the road?

            1. re: Leftychefty
              tanuki soup Dec 2, 2010 04:02 AM

              Just pulled out my knife for a look. The dimples start about 5 mm from the edge. No idea how long it would take to sharpen a knife back that far. Hopefully, one of the helpful knife experts here can jump in with an estimate.

              1. re: tanuki soup
                Chemicalkinetics Dec 2, 2010 05:45 AM

                Normal sharpening should not able to touch 5 mm in 10 years. However, if you are doing major reprofiling (changing edge angle or changing edge profile) from time to time, then you can eat up 5 mm.

              2. re: Leftychefty
                cowboyardee Dec 2, 2010 07:19 AM

                Even once you get to the dimples (years from now), I believe sharpening won't be an issue. Unless the dimples extend at least halfway through the thickness of the knife, you can just sharpen as normal. And I'm almost positive the dimples extend that far.

                1. re: cowboyardee
                  cowboyardee Dec 2, 2010 09:38 AM

                  "And I'm almost positive the dimples extend that far."
                  ____
                  DON'T extend that far. DON'T, i meant.

            2. l
              Leftychefty Dec 2, 2010 12:56 PM

              Awesome and thoughtful answers from everyone! I've basically narrowed my choices down to the Global, and the Wa Tojiro, and will most likely spoil myself later on with a Watanabe Nakkiri (the 55 dollar one from chefknivestogo).
              The Global and Tojiro are pretty much polar opposites, I realize, but if everyone here agrees they actually are a good knife for 100 bucks, then I'm willing to trust that there are lovers and hatred because they are now at that level. I know people who won't touch a Henckels because they have been sold in department stores for so long. As though using one would make you a sell-out. It's funny to me!
              I personally hate anything by Wusthof because I am slightly loyal to the corporate whores at Henckels. I grew up using them and my chef's knife is older than I am...and can outperform anything else I've seen from Europe...except that great feel of my Icel petty! I guess that's a pretty strong endorsement!
              The Global has a similar feel in my hands to the petty that inspired this all for me, so we'll have to wait and see I guess.
              Tojiro is Tojiro. they have an awesome reputation in the past few years and the Wa design is beautiful!
              I'm now passing these two on to my wife as incredibly obvious hints for Xmas presents. I tend to let her make the really tough questions...except whether or not a gas line was necessary in the kitchen at our new home. Sure, gas stovetops get dirty, but in my opinion, that's a lot better than trying to cook on a glorified hot plate made of glass! I'm pretty sure my iPhone has an app that can give me better feel than one of those. Haha.
              Thanks for all the help everyone. I love this forum and will hopefully be able to throw my 2 cents in from time to time if you need another opinion.

              3 Replies
              1. re: Leftychefty
                Chemicalkinetics Dec 2, 2010 01:23 PM

                "I know people who won't touch a Henckels because they have been sold in department stores for so long."

                That is not why I don't use Henckels. I find it to be expensive for its performance. Again, I don't think Henckels knives are bad. I just think they are more expensive than they should be. Think of it this way. They are more expensive than Tojiro, but not necessary better in my opinion. They are better Dexter-Russell, but they are 4-5 times more expensive than Dexter.

                I have several Dexter-Russell, so I certain do not think Henckels knives are beneath me. If anything, Henckels think I am beneath its knives by selling them at a higher pricce points than I like to afford.

                1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                  l
                  Leftychefty Dec 2, 2010 02:24 PM

                  Well put, Chem. I have to be honest, I wouldn't go and buy new Henckels unless it was on sale either...I would, however take them over Wusthof. We all know there's no reason for such loyalties, but then again I'm a Leafs fan even though they haven't won a Stanley Cup since 1967!

                  1. re: Leftychefty
                    Chemicalkinetics Dec 2, 2010 02:48 PM

                    RGC is correct. If you want someone who has hands-on experience on all the knives you mentioned, then you have a better chance of finding these people a pure knife forum where knives owners are bound to own the knives you are interested in.

                    Chowhound is a lot more general.

              2. r
                RGC1982 Dec 2, 2010 01:59 PM

                Chefty ,

                I have found that if I need specific knife recommendations based on owner experience, you need to look to another source besides Chowhound Cookware. Do yourself a favor and take a look at this site:

                http://www.foodieforums.com/vbulletin...

                Specifically, you should look at Fred's Cutlery Forum. It costs nothing to sign up, and you will be able to tap into the amazing resource of true knife nuts who spend their waking hours and paychecks thinking about this stuff. There are also a fair number of chefs who post on those forums, so having peers to ask questions of is invaluable. No disrespect to Chem, who is giving your helpful advice, of course, but as he said himself -- he doesn't own either of the knives you asked about. You will likely find owners on the Cutlery Board. Please give it a try and let us know if you like the results.

                37 Replies
                1. re: RGC1982
                  l
                  Leftychefty Dec 3, 2010 05:48 AM

                  I just signed up there and threw the question at them too. I'll let you know how it goes on that board.
                  Strange, but I feel like I trust you guys more because I've been a reader of chowhound posts for so long, I know the names, etc.
                  I didn't just cross over to the dark side, did I??? Haha

                  1. re: Leftychefty
                    Chemicalkinetics Dec 3, 2010 06:59 AM

                    You know you cross to the dark side if you dream about beautiful knives instead of beautiful women. Just kidding.

                    1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                      l
                      Leftychefty Dec 3, 2010 07:17 AM

                      Hahahaha!
                      So, I'm still fine because my dreams are of beautiful women using beautiful knives!
                      That's a relief!

                      1. re: Leftychefty
                        Chemicalkinetics Dec 3, 2010 07:24 AM

                        :) Don't be surprise, we have people on this site who more or less suggested that they like a Bob Kramer knife more than dating Heidi Klum, Tyra Banks...etc. I guess you want both now, but, like they say, there will be a time that you will have to make the choice, and that choice will define you. :)

                        1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                          l
                          Leftychefty Dec 3, 2010 07:28 AM

                          Like I said earlier...I always let my wife make the really tough decisions! Thank God for that! Haha

                          1. re: Leftychefty
                            Chemicalkinetics Dec 3, 2010 07:32 AM

                            :) Opps I forgot you are married. I thought you are single like me. Hope you don't take offense. :)

                            "I always let my wife make the really tough decisions!"

                            Yeah, that is funny. I will surprise if she does not kcik your butt for asking her that question.

                            1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                              l
                              Leftychefty Dec 3, 2010 08:24 AM

                              Haha. Maybe I'll just settle on some pretty Japanese steel instead....

                              1. re: Leftychefty
                                l
                                Leftychefty Dec 4, 2010 01:50 PM

                                So, my update on foodieforums is this (so far).
                                The people there don't seem quite as helpful, to be honest. I've basically had 2 or 3 people offer anything worthwhile.
                                I have been lead to the Fujiwara FKM which is really catching my eye!
                                Any opinions here? It seems like a great deal! Has anyone dealt with japanesechefsknife.com here? Preferably anyone from Canada...should I expect any surprises pricewise?

                                1. re: Leftychefty
                                  Chemicalkinetics Dec 4, 2010 02:02 PM

                                  Yes, I mentioned Fujirwara earlier as a good option. Ultimately, I think the best is that we offer you information, and you make your decision based on the information.

                                  Both Japanesechefknife.com and Chefknivestogo.com offer Fujirwara FKM. Mark from Chefknivestogo recommended this as a beginner knife for those who are new to Japanese style knives:

                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejvicn...

                                  Both Fujiwara FKM and Tojiro DP are relatively inexpensive. Fujiwara FKM is HRC 58-59, whereas Tojiro DP is HRC 61. In short, Fujiwara is softer than Tojiro. I remember you said you don't really like Tojiro. What are the reasons? I am asking this (not to convince you one way or the other) is that there are similarities between Tojiro and Fujiwara. Best.

                                  1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                    l
                                    Leftychefty Dec 4, 2010 03:11 PM

                                    Chem,
                                    I didn't realize you suggested them! Ha...I could have saved so much time!!! Haha. Oh well!
                                    I have to be honest, the Tojiro I handled seemed a bit unfinished and just didn't do it for me.
                                    I know looks are only part of the package, but I really like how the Fujiwara looks compared to the Tojiro, it appears the fit and finish is a lot nicer. Sounds stupid, but it just has that x factor (from the pics), that I never got from the Tojiro, in person or in picture.
                                    So, you feel they would both be a great choice then? Hmmm
                                    My other front runner is the Misono Moly. How do you feel they compare? For some reason I'm drawn to Misono's profile. Hmmm

                                    1. re: Leftychefty
                                      Chemicalkinetics Dec 4, 2010 03:31 PM

                                      Fujiwara FKM and Misono Molybdenum appear very similar to me

                                  2. re: Leftychefty
                                    cowboyardee Dec 4, 2010 02:20 PM

                                    If you do wind up getting the Fujiwara FKM, be sure to review it here. I haven't had a chance to play with one.

                                    I have dealt with japanesechefsknife.com. Very good customer service. But I'm not in Canada.

                                    1. re: cowboyardee
                                      l
                                      Leftychefty Dec 4, 2010 03:35 PM

                                      Will do cowboy! I'll have to wait and see, but once I get whatever I get I'll let you all know what I think!
                                      I need to find a fellow Canadian to make sure I don't get stuck with unexpected duties, etc.
                                      I've heard good things about paulsfinest, but his prices are a bit higher. However, if there are no surprises, it could work out cheaper for those of us North of the border...now I'm rambling! Haha

                                      1. re: Leftychefty
                                        b
                                        bogie Dec 6, 2010 06:16 AM

                                        Leftychefty:

                                        I live in Toronto and deal with Mark at Chefknivestogo pretty much exclusively. He ships very quickly, but of course items can always get caught up in customs for a couple of weeks. He uses USPS, which means that there is no $50 handling fee at the border like UPS and FedEx charge. The duty on knives isn't too huge either, my last knife was $359 and only $22 duty. The Tojiro DP is a great choice as is the Fujiwara FKM. I wouldn't necessarily recommend a wa handle or high carbon steel knife. Wa handles are definitely a different feel and are much longer that regular western handles. Carbon steel can require a lot of maintenance, especially in such a humid place as Toronto. I would like to recommend the knife that I bought as my first, a Kikuichi TKC 240mm Gyuto:
                                        http://www.chefknivestogo.com/ic24gy.html
                                        This knife has an amazing high carbon "mystery steel" that performs at a very high level and is basically stainless. It might develop a few black spots or a thumbprint on the blade, that is about it. It goes for $167, great bang for the buck with excellent fit and finish. This knife is highly regarded by the knife nuts including me at http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/sho....
                                        Next we'll need to talk about sharpening tools:)

                                        1. re: bogie
                                          Chemicalkinetics Dec 6, 2010 06:40 AM

                                          Why can't we talk about sharpening tools now :)

                                          1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                            b
                                            bogie Dec 6, 2010 06:43 AM

                                            I didn't want his brain to explode just yet! I thought we would get him hooked on using good blades first, before we start discussing this.

                                          2. re: bogie
                                            z
                                            ziggylu Dec 6, 2010 07:04 AM

                                            I have a Kikuichi knife I adore, bogie. I'm glad to see you recommend it. I see these rarely mentioned on these boards. I was pointed to it at our local knife shop last time I was in. We have a bunch of mainstream Wusthofs, Shun, Messermeister, etc...but also have some Misono, Mac, and Masahiro. This Kikuichi is by far my favorite of all the knives in our house however.

                                            The link you posted indicated they were hard to come by. I didn't realize this. Maybe I should go pick up a couple others since last time I was in the shop had a pretty nice selection.

                                            1. re: ziggylu
                                              b
                                              bogie Dec 6, 2010 08:04 AM

                                              ziggylu:

                                              I don't know what model of Kikuichi that you have, but it's the TKC model that is rather difficult to source apart from Chefknivestogo. The original TKC was marketed by Ichimonji, but you had to use their Japanese website in order to order one. Mark from Chefknivestogo approached Kikuichi about finding the OEM manufacturer of the Ichimonji TKC, they did so and now have them under license in the US. Kikuichi USA has a strong market presence, so other knives they make are not as difficult to find.

                                              1. re: bogie
                                                Chemicalkinetics Dec 6, 2010 08:06 AM

                                                Yeah, that clears things a lot more. The mysteric steel :P

                                                1. re: Chemicalkinetics
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                                                  Leftychefty Dec 9, 2010 01:55 PM

                                                  I didn't notice the posts before. Thanks for the info bogie! You just complicated matters even more for me. I doubt my wife will think that $150+ for ANOTHER knife makes sense, but I'll see what I can do! Haha
                                                  I'm still pretty in lust with the Fujiwara and the Misono, and I think that price tag is less "ridiculous" to her! Women! Haha
                                                  Have you ever dealt with jck before? I emailed Koki to find out some specifics, but haven't received any response....
                                                  Mark from chefknivestogo hasn't responded either!

                                                  1. re: Leftychefty
                                                    Chemicalkinetics Dec 9, 2010 04:24 PM

                                                    "Have you ever dealt with jck before? I emailed Koki to find out some specifics, but haven't received any response....
                                                    Mark from chefknivestogo hasn't responded either!"

                                                    That is strange, maybe because of December. Mark from Chefknivestogo and JCK have always been fast to respond.

                                                    You said you are new to Japanese knife, maybe you should start of a less expensive knife to see if you will like it.

                                                    1. re: Leftychefty
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                                                      golfgirl Dec 10, 2010 02:07 AM

                                                      Hi, I live just north of Toronto and have just received my Mr. Itou from JCK! Koki is really great to deal with. I have found that it usually takes 1-2 days to get a reply from him (time difference?) so be patient, I am sure he is really busy these days. He is very helpful answering any questions you may have-I HIGHLY recommend them. As far as duties/taxes go, lets just say that if you ask him he will be accommodating-at least he was with me, Unbelievably after placing my order on a thursday, I received my knives on wednesday!! Unbelievably quick shipping, I've never had anything shipped from that States to Canada this quick! Good-luck with choice, Ive been in the same boat!

                                                      1. re: golfgirl
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                                                        Leftychefty Dec 10, 2010 07:12 AM

                                                        That's great to read! I'll definitely be going with him, then! I was nervous about my 70-100 dollar knife coming out to 150 bucks!
                                                        I'm getting more excited about the new knife by the day! It's sad, isn't it? Haha

                                                        1. re: Leftychefty
                                                          g
                                                          golfgirl Dec 10, 2010 08:33 AM

                                                          Not sad at all-you should have seen me opening my delivery!! I placed my order with Koki, then sent him an email asking about-unexpected $-he was very accommodating and didn't disappoint. I hope you have the same experience. I will definitely buy from them again--after I save up! having really good knives is addictive and I am finding that I want to replace everything I have! First I have to get an edge pro to take care of these!!

                                                          1. re: golfgirl
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                                                            Leftychefty Dec 10, 2010 09:04 AM

                                                            Haha! That's a relief! I really like the Ryusen Tsuchime Winter Special edition in the specials sectionon jck too! I literally gave my wife a list of 5 knives that would make me more than happy, and she is apparently picking from the list. I have a strange suspicion she might have already bought me a Global G2 from a store in town (the only one with ANYTHING Japanese). I have to be honest, I love the feel of it too! I've been after one for years, but never pulled the trigger... There are so many "negatives" according to the knife nuts out there. If she bought me it, knowing I'd love it, even before I gave her the idea, then I guarantee that it'll be my favourite knife EVER! haha. I guess it proves that you have to go with your gut, and that a present from the heart is what matters most. She hasn't disappointed me yet, so if she decides the Global is it, then I trust her! She has great instincts!

                                                            1. re: Leftychefty
                                                              Chemicalkinetics Dec 10, 2010 01:16 PM

                                                              "Ryusen Tsuchime Winter Special edition"

                                                              That looks to be a very good knife.

                                                              1. re: Chemicalkinetics
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                                                                Leftychefty Dec 10, 2010 01:24 PM

                                                                It is super sexy!

                                                                1. re: Leftychefty
                                                                  Chemicalkinetics Dec 10, 2010 01:35 PM

                                                                  Yes, a VG-10 core hardened to HRC 61, plus it has the damacus-like pattern and Tsuchime hammered finished. Look great. Just beware that you are partially paying for the damacus and tsuchime.

                                                                  Shun Premier knife is very much the same:

                                                                  http://www.surlatable.com/gs/shun-premier-chefs-knife-2.shtml#
                                                                  http://www.chefknivestogo.com/shunpre...

                                                                  1. re: Chemicalkinetics
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                                                                    Leftychefty Dec 10, 2010 02:09 PM

                                                                    I've handled shuns and really don't like the weight distribution or bulkiness! I'm sure they're great for people who prefer that feel. Look wise, though, they are very nice, other than the blade profile. I. Am also impressed with the vg-10 and sharpness. Last time I held one, I bumped my knuckle on the heel and had to make sure I didn't bleed on the table!
                                                                    The Ryusen sure is pretty, and I be a great performer. 240mm for $150 seems very reasonable to me too!

                                                                    1. re: Leftychefty
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                                                                      Leftychefty Dec 10, 2010 02:15 PM

                                                                      I just took a closer look at the Shun Premier. What a looker! Wow do they ever make nice looking knives!
                                                                      Unfortunately, I'm not into their specs or geometry...or pricetag!
                                                                      As far as the Ryusen is concerned, for a knife with a great make up AND looks like that, I don't mind paying extra for its beauty! It'd be a show stopper and a workhorse!
                                                                      I think paying for the looks is like putting a spoiler or rims on your car-completely unnecessary, but man does it make you take notice!
                                                                      As they say in Paris "a chacun son gout"!

                                                                      1. re: Leftychefty
                                                                        Chemicalkinetics Dec 10, 2010 02:24 PM

                                                                        Yes, Shun Premier is really the same as Shun Classic in term of steels, hardness ... The only difference is that Shun Premier looks nicer. The Ryusen knife you have shown is a good looking knife, but like Shun Premier, part of the price goes toward the look -- the damacus and tsuchime pattern. There is nothing wrong with paying for a good looking knife. It is just that these damacus and tsuhime patterns have no impact to the functions of your knives. Historically, these patterns make a big difference in term of steel performance, but not anymore

                                                                        I am surprised that you find Shun knives to be bulky, yet also like Henckels (or did I mix you up with someone now?)

                                                                        "I'm not into their specs or geometry...or pricetag!"

                                                                        What? The Shun Premier has the same specs and pricetag as the Ryusen you are looking at.

                                                                        1. re: Chemicalkinetics
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                                                                          Leftychefty Dec 10, 2010 02:46 PM

                                                                          Seems confusing, but let me explain. I LOVE my old Henckels chef's knife because it has sentimentality to me, and I know exacty how it feels and what t's capable of. It is rugged, ugly in a great way and very durable!
                                                                          However, it has its limitations, for sure! I can't make perfectly translucent slices of Ginger or garlic with it, and I know that. I want a Japanese knife for the feel, not necessarily the steel. The better steel is a definite plus, but what I'm after is the feel of my petty knife, only bigger!
                                                                          I feel the Shun is only a German knife wearing a very sexy Japanese prom dress, albeit a prom dress made of wonderful material!
                                                                          I want nimble, thin and lightweight (perhaps why I can't get the damned Global out of my head! Haha).
                                                                          I didn't notice the price, or even look at the price on chefknivestogo, because I know I DON'T want one. Where I live, the Shun Classic is even more than the work of art Ryusen. I assumed that the Premier could only be higher priced than the Classic, but I am wrong. Oops!
                                                                          With all of that being said, I would love to get something that I know nobody I know will have, but this is not a necessity. The "rarity" of the Ryusen is very appealing to me, but not the end all, be all.
                                                                          What I want is something that I like the look of, am proud to use, and will give me the feel and affect I am after. Is that too much to ask? Lol
                                                                          On a side note, I'd take a Henckels ANY DAY over a Wusthof, however, as i har stated before, I am a Leafs fan after all!

                                                                          1. re: Leftychefty
                                                                            Chemicalkinetics Dec 10, 2010 03:19 PM

                                                                            I must say I had been confused about what you are looking for.

                                                                            So far what I got out is that you want 1) a lighter knife, presumably thinner blade, 2) a knife made from a less known manufacturer, 3) moderately priced ($<100), yet you don’t care about the steel, right?

                                                                            Here are some:

                                                                            http://japan-blades.com/chef-knives/2641.html
                                                                            http://japan-blades.com/chef-knives/2...

                                                                            1. re: Chemicalkinetics
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                                                                              Leftychefty Dec 10, 2010 03:37 PM

                                                                              I want good reliable steel, but don't need ZDP-189 (or whatever it is)! Ha
                                                                              I love kitchen knives, but I am not as well versed as you are. I just know that for what I want, an HRC of 61 will be no more useful than an HRC of 58.
                                                                              I'll take a look at the knives you've mentioned, and I appreciate all of the suggestions and help.
                                                                              I'm picky, but not for what the average knife nut cares about. I cook with feel and I need a knife that feels right!

                                                                              1. re: Leftychefty
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                                                                                Leftychefty Dec 10, 2010 05:54 PM

                                                                                Chem,
                                                                                The Kanetsune is another great looking knife, with good core steel! Looks like a very good price too! It's just about half the price of the Ryusen that I like so much!
                                                                                The minute I saw it, I thought of this...am I crazy or is this the same knife with a different brand on it???
                                                                                http://www.paulsfinest.com/Sakai-Taka...

                                                                                1. re: Leftychefty
                                                                                  petek Dec 11, 2010 02:57 PM

                                                                                  Hey Lefty. While buying knives online may be cheaper it's not always better. Knives are a very personal investment.The look,feel,weight all come into play when purchasing fine Japanese steel. Knife on Queen west has a fantastic selection of knives and stones. Even if you don't buy you can handle and feel all the different makes and styles. I recently purchased a Moritaka 240 mm agomi blue steel gyuto from Eugine(Knife) and it's the best knife I/ve ever used. The healthy butcher also carries some great knives and their prices are the best in town.
                                                                                  Happy hunting!!

                                                                                  1. re: petek
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                                                                                    Leftychefty Dec 12, 2010 07:55 AM

                                                                                    Thanks for the info petek! I'm about an hour and a half outside of TO, but next time I'm there, I will pop in (as much as a pop in is possible in the GTA)!
                                                                                    I discovered Tap Phong last summer, while eating in China town! What a gem!

                      2. d
                        DukeOfSuffolk Dec 11, 2010 05:37 PM

                        tojiro on sale or a dexter-russell or a victorinox for chef/gyuto, then a bunch of Kiwi knives, and a cheap offset serrated bread knife if you don't have one

                        honestly people debate and argue over this stuff constantly, I'd try not to get caught up with it all - then again what is more important then your knife? :)

                        you can even get a VG-10 steel knife at Ikea for not too much....I'm not sure who makes it but it looks quite similar to another famous brand VG-10 chefs knife, not sure how good it is though

                        I kinda want a sabatier carbon steel chefs knife.

                        15 Replies
                        1. re: DukeOfSuffolk
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                          Leftychefty Dec 12, 2010 07:59 AM

                          I agree one hundred percent! We want what we want. As long as it's of good quality, then it's all about what makes you feel confident and pumped about being in the kitchen!
                          Sabatiers are NICE! in France, though, it's all about Sabs from 25 years ago!

                          1. re: Leftychefty
                            l
                            Leftychefty Dec 29, 2010 05:16 AM

                            So, I know this is an old post by now, but I'm updating any of you who actually care! Haha. For Xmas, I my wife bought me my first Japanese gyuto. The knife I got is the Misono Molybdenum 210mm gyuto. I know many of you prefer larger, but I love 210s and this one is honesty better than any I've ever used! I made the entire Xmas dinner with it, as well as two quick bfasts, and two good old dinners all without touching the edge. It's still shaving the hair off my arm on one side, but on the other, it struggles slightly. However, a few hairs pop off. I'm making dinner for the guys at the hall tonight (back to work I go). I imagine it should be more than ready to go, when it's called upon!
                            Initial reactions are as follows:
                            F n F are great! There is a grind mark where the spine and ferrulemeet up, but it looks nice and clean while adding to the hand finished appeal. The handle is perfectly sanded and flows seamlessly into the tang and rivets.
                            Balance is about perfectly dead centre (where the ferrule begins). I like my knves balanced this way, so it's great for me!
                            Edge OOTB is very very good, but not quite scary sharp. More than useable, however, and so far seems to hold very well for an HRC of 58.
                            Esthetics are much much better than I expected. Compared to a German knife, there honestly is no comparison! Misono all the way! I prefer the western style handle and look, but if you don't then I guess you won't like it!
                            The blade profile is typically French with about an extra inch to inch and a half of useable cutting area than my Henckels chef knife. The blade is much much thinner and a lot less deep, which adds to the overall feel of the knife.
                            The handle is thin compared to a German chef knife, with much rounder and sexier edges. I love the japanese flare on the butt of the handle.
                            The knife is incredibly agile, nimble and very nice to look at (the pictures honestly don't do it justice)!
                            Overall, at this point my only complaint would be the asymmetry in the edge 70/30 is slightly noticeable at times because I angle my blade slightly away from my gripping hand. I'm a lefty and it's technically a right handed knife - I wouldn't even say this is a major problem, because it has only been noticeable a couple of times in the few days I have used it.
                            Overall I'm blown away by the value and workmanship of my new blade! The total shipped was. About 80 dollars Canadian (according to my wife). She told me that Koki was a treat to deal with, and somehow, there was no duty! The package took 4 days to come in the mail (to Canada), and all for only $7! How Koki does it, I don't know, but we HIGHLY recommend JCK and for what it's worth, I give the Misono Moly gyuto my seal of approval! 4.5 stars and at the price, a solid 5 stars for value!
                            General

                            1. re: Leftychefty
                              cowboyardee Dec 29, 2010 11:39 AM

                              Thanks for the update. Glad to hear that you like the misono.

                              A few things - I had mentioned earlier that i was worried that you would find the feel of the Misono to be too similar to a Tojiro DP. Obviously, this was not the case, but I'm wondering what you feel are the big differences (I have a lot more experience with Tojiro's than Misonos, and the Misonos I've played with were UX10 gyutos and a Misono Moly hankotsu).

                              Also, let us know how you like the Misono once you've sharpened it up.

                              Finally, you mention issues with the 70/30 edge. I'm assuming you're talking about the knife occasionally steering while you cut? My gyuto is also 70/30 and I haven't noticed any real steering, but then again, I cut pretty much straight up and down unless I'm cutting deliberately on a bias, like for sashimi or something. On the other hand, I have noticed very obvious steering when using my honesuki, which is something like 95/5, on a cutting board, so I don't doubt what you're feeling. How often are you experiencing this, and how much of a problem is it? I'm wondering if you might be able to help it just by adding a microbevel at the end of sharpening. I'm hesitant to tell people to actually reprofile their knives much closer to 50/50, because Japanese knives have this asymmetry not just in their edge but in their entire grind, and a major reprofiling could make the edge weaker.

                              Anyway, glad you like the Misono. Hope it provides you with many good years of service.

                              1. re: cowboyardee
                                l
                                Leftychefty Dec 29, 2010 05:47 PM

                                Thanks Cowboy!
                                As far as the Tojiro vs Misono is concerned, I just find the handle shape much nicer on the Misono. I don't have a Tojiro to compare head to head with my Misono, but I remember the Tojiro handle feeling a bit squared off with rounded edges to battle the squareness. I also felt that the handle was a bit flat with a more pronounced taper into the ferrule. I'm assuming the balance and weight are very similar for both knives, however the Tojiro felt a bit more German than I expected it to feel...maybe a bit thicker(?)
                                Lookwise, I remember the handle on the Tojiro looking more flat black, compared to the Misono having a very nice purple undertone in the grain of the wood. This is completely visual, of course, but we all know you have to like the look of your tools!
                                The main difference, would have to be cleaner, sleeker curves and a slimmer feel to the Misono and what I would guess to be a few grams less in the handle.
                                I'm thinking it comes down to attention to detail and a bit more effort in the final finish of the Misono.
                                As far as the edge is concerned, I just noticed some steering at times, while julienning a zucchini, and once or twice on some carrots. However, I find that I am able to get paper thin slices for garnish and garlic, when desired.
                                The 70/30 bevel has made me a bit more cognizant of my angle cutting my food. My form was getting a bit sloppy, and now I'm back to the basics (blade running in line with my forearm, and a lighter grip). Today, I thought about keeping my blade perpendicular to the board, and the steering problem virtually disappeared!
                                Today it wasn't feeling razor sharp, and I was wondering if you might have some advice as far as maintainence is concerned. Do you think a light honing on an Idahone is ok for this blade?
                                I've been experimenting at home, on some old knives and I discovered I can get a razor edge on my vg-1 nakiri, and Icel petty with a fine India stone and some 2100 grit wet/ dry sand paper. Does this make you feel uncomfortable, or is this acceptable in your view? Haha

                                1. re: Leftychefty
                                  cowboyardee Dec 30, 2010 06:17 AM

                                  "but I remember the Tojiro handle feeling a bit squared off with rounded edges to battle the squareness."
                                  ____
                                  Sounds like the Tojiro handle alright. I'm not much of a handle guy, so I forgive that type of thing easily, but it seems to drive other people nuts (actually, I sort of like the boxiness in the handle, which is weird because everyone else lists it as a drawback... go figure). I haven't found the Tojiro to be particularly thick though, but I might just be too used to my Hiromoto which is a bit thicker.

                                  A light honing on an Idahone rod (standard 1200 grit, I'm assuming), is fine for this type of knife. As is sharpening on a fine India stone and some 2100 grit wet/dry sandpaper. A few caveats though -

                                  a) An idahone is really just a round, narrow, unstable sharpening stone. It's easily portable and doesn't need water (both of which are big advantages for a working chef), and those are its main virtues. But if you find you don't take advantage of its portability, you might just be better off ignoring it and going with stones only, which grind faster and make it easier to control your sharpening angle and such.

                                  b) I'm actually not all that familiar with india stones though I've used other oilstones, and as such I don't know for certain what a fine grit india stone equates to. I believe it should be in the range of about ~500 grit japanese waterstones (actually, I've heard that india stones have grits of somewhat varying size in the same stone).
                                  Complicating things further, I don't know what's standard in Canada - is your sandpaper in US/CAMI grits, or is it graded on the European scale (does your sandpaper list its grit as p2100?). Assuming you're using the US scale, you'd be making a pretty big jump between the india stone and wet/dry sandpaper (~4000 grit Japanese) Assuming you're not grinding away on the wet/dry paper for an hour at a time, this will probably leave you with a somewhat stabilized coarse edge, which as you've found, can be very useful. But one of the upsides of Japanese knives is that they'll take and hold a more refined edge. I'd recommend trying out an intermediate grit (or two) of sandpaper in between the india stone and 2100 grit. Start off trying maybe 700 and 1200 grit (wet/dry) in between and see if you like the difference. Should result in a smoother and more polished edge.
                                  If your sandpaper is using the Euro scale, you wouldn't be making that huge a jump, but you might want to try a few finer grits, under the same logic as employed above.

                                  c) If you do like the feel of the edge with a couple intermediate grits, consider finishing with a loaded strop - it's not expensive to make one yourself (much less expensive than a similarly fine grit stone), and it can give a polished edge that last little bit of oomph to make it really fall through food. Most of the guys over at knifeforums seem to finish their knives at 4000 grit (Japanese) or higher. Personally, I find that I prefer knives finished at about 6000 or 8000 grit, then stropped (higher grits feel very nice and effortless in cutting, but the initial polish of a 10000 grit stone wears off very quickly)

                                  d) Longer term consideration - Japanese waterstones cut faster than oil stones or wet/dry sandpaper. They're also arguably more cost effective in the long run than wet/dry paper (assuming you shop around). They're not strictly necessary. But there's a reason that most people who hand sharpen Japanese knives prefer them.

                                  Ultimately, the important thing in sharpening is what works for you and for your needs. So if you don't like any of these suggestions, you can take them with a grain of salt.

                                  1. re: cowboyardee
                                    l
                                    Leftychefty Jan 2, 2011 12:05 PM

                                    Once again, I really appreciate the well thought out responses, cowboy! The paper is 2100 imperial, but I also have a whole bunch of p800 wet dry at home. I have lots of car guy friends who just dump stuff on me, and you never know when you'll need insanely fine sand paper! Haha
                                    So how does this sound to you? - India stone, deburr on cork, p800, 2100, deburr on cork, strop on 2100
                                    Would that produce a nice stable edge?
                                    I am also wondering if I could just lightly strop on my 2100 paper in between to maintain since I have an abundance of it?
                                    One more question...would my angles be 10 and 15 (or there abouts) for a 70/30 bevel like my Misono? Not that I have a guide, but just for a visual...all of the instructions for Misono are in kanji! (kinda cool, actually)

                                    1. re: Leftychefty
                                      cowboyardee Jan 4, 2011 08:10 PM

                                      Imperial, as in 3M brand, right? As far as I know, that should be US grit. But I haven't bought sandpaper in Canada, so I can't be absolutely positive. I'll assume that it is.

                                      "So how does this sound to you? - India stone, deburr on cork, p800, 2100, deburr on cork, strop on 2100"
                                      _____
                                      800 grit would be a good step from the india stone. It would also be a good place to start whenever you're touching up a knife that isn't especially dull or otherwise messed up. You might even find you like the cutting edge 800 grit sandpaper leaves for some tasks. Ideally, you might even want to try getting some 1200-1600 grit paper and trying that as one more step in between the 800 and 2100 if you want to get the best idea of what a fully polished 2100 grit edge feels like (alternately, you could just spend a loooonnnnngggg time using 2100 grit paper).

                                      Also, I would probably deburr after the 800 as well, but that may be more superstition and habit than strictly necessary.

                                      "I am also wondering if I could just lightly strop on my 2100 paper in between to maintain since I have an abundance of it?"
                                      ____
                                      You can do this. 2100 is fairly fine grit, so you can do this pretty often. Eventually though, the 2100 won't bring the edge back to where you like it and you'll need to start off with something coarser.

                                      Now... as for the angles... that gets complicated. I'm not familiar enough with the grind of a Misono to tell you off-hand what the edge angles are likely to be. They could be 10 and 15 deg, but this is not strictly necessary. They could be very close to the same (as measured from the middle of the spine). It is likely that the front of the knife will be set at a more obtuse angle than the back of the knife. How much so is the hard part.

                                      Your best bet is to find the existing geometry and follow it, at least to start. To do this - try the magic marker trick. Color the edge in with a sharpie. Start sharpening. If the sharpie is evenly abraded away, you're sharpening at the correct angle. If your angle is too high, the marker will be abraded away only at the extreme edge. Too low, only the very top of the bevel.

                                      This gets even more complicated with the possibility that your knife already has a microbevel. Obviously, you could be sharpening at the correct angle for the main bevel but not remove the sharpie from the extreme edge if there is a microbevel already ground in. The upside is that a microbevel will only make a difference in sharpening if there's enough of one that you can see it easily with your naked eye before applying the marker. So take a look.

                                      Hope this helps and doesn't make things more confusing for you.

                                      1. re: cowboyardee
                                        l
                                        Leftychefty Jan 5, 2011 11:50 AM

                                        That really helps, to be honest.
                                        Just two nights ago I tried sharpening/ Stropping on the 2100 as maintenance (I got impatient haha), and I got great results! It's right back to popping hairs off my arm and there was no sliding at all on tomato or red pepper skin...just how I like it!
                                        I knew it was back to how I like it, when I lightly brushed my thumb against the edge while putting it up on my rack. Boy was that a nice clean slice! Haha. If only I could get my "petty knife" that sharp!
                                        When it needs a full sharpening, I'll give it a run through on the routine we agreed upon, but until then, I'll use the 2100.
                                        I've never used the magic marker trick, but it makes a lot of sense! My muscle memory, for lack of a better term, has been leaning towards the Japanese angles, which I realize won't be the best for my Germans. The marker trick will make it easier to go back and forth between the two, on the paper.
                                        I just realized i have an opportunity to try the new routine out sooner than planned, because I plan on getting about a 15 degree bevel on my petty as well, instead of the factory 20.
                                        I'll let you know how it goes.

                                        1. re: Leftychefty
                                          Chemicalkinetics Jan 5, 2011 12:37 PM

                                          The magic marker trick is a very standard method. The reason is that a person is never 100% about the factory bevel angle. Yes, it should be 15 or 20, but it may not be. The magic marker allows the person to find that factory angle. Now, do you have to sharpen at the factory angle? No. But in the case you want to, that is the widely accepted method.

                                          1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                            l
                                            Leftychefty Jan 5, 2011 01:52 PM

                                            Hey Chem,
                                            It's been a while. I thought you were mad at me! Haha
                                            The marker trick is great once I've found that perfect (for me angle), but that's a good point. It'll only help if I'm maintaining an angle. To drastically change one, if I decide to, I'll ask my friend who sharpens for a living, then keep it myself with the marker. For now, though, I'll stick with the factory angle on my Misono!
                                            Hope the holidays were good for you!

                                            1. re: Leftychefty
                                              Chemicalkinetics Jan 5, 2011 02:11 PM

                                              Hi Lefty,

                                              No, I am not mad at you. I just didn't have much to add. Yes, I agree with your assertion. The marker trick is great for finding an existing angle. There is the "click-on" method which Dave Martell shown on a youtube video. However, that works well with a knife with a wide bevel. For a knife with a small bevel, that will be tough. Another method I use is to push the knife at the stone -- the applied force is parallel to the knife blade and not to the stone. Just do so very gently. When the angle is higher than the primary bevel, the knife will be cutting at the stone and it will provide resistance against moving forward. Obviously it can move forward when enough force is applied, but if you use minimal force, the knife should not move. As I start to low the angle little by little, I will get to the same angle as the bevel, then the knife will slide foward with very little resistance. Then I know I have hit the angle. By the way, it is not a better method and it requires some getting use to, but I like it because it requires minimal work. I would still say the magic marker is the way to go for a new person because it requires very skill.

                                              Another classic method is actual do what I described on a leather belt. It is more sensitive, but it requires one more step. You have to find the angle on the leather and then move the knife back onto the stones.

                                              In all honesty, what do you like and dislike about the new knife? If you have to name one of each?

                                              1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                l
                                                Leftychefty Jan 5, 2011 03:09 PM

                                                It's great to get all these little tips from you guys! I'm just new to this obsession! Haha
                                                As for the new knife, i'll make a little list
                                                Likes:
                                                Looks
                                                Weight and balance
                                                Blade profile, including depth of blade
                                                I love the handle look and feel
                                                The fact that it's not so hard that I have to be afraid of using it like I did my Henckels
                                                Price
                                                The agility an cutting ability
                                                Dislike:
                                                Mirror polish on the blade shows signs of wear from cutting slightly harder materials
                                                70/30 was scary at first, but now it changes nothing
                                                I've nicked my finger on the heel a few times already
                                                Feels a bit more fragile than my German knives
                                                Overall, after having it for almost two weeks, I'm still very very impressed. My one friend has a Yoshihiro gyuto that he loves, but I really don't like the blade heavy feel and the fact that it feels thicker than it should (to me).
                                                The Misono handle is more familiar and more comfortable, in my opinion. I can honestly say, it is a great example of Japanese cutting ability and beauty, without being too far off from what all of us North Americans grew up using. It's what the German knife makers should strive for!

                                                1. re: Leftychefty
                                                  Chemicalkinetics Jan 5, 2011 03:30 PM

                                                  Getting cut/jab by Japanese knife heel is not uncommon. Some people slightly round off the heel.

                                                  Henckels is hitting this Westernized Japanese market pretty aggressively with its Miyabi line:

                                                  http://www.miyabi.eu/

                                                  1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                    l
                                                    Leftychefty Jan 5, 2011 03:43 PM

                                                    I seriously thought about a Miyabi, buy chose not to go with them because they are so readily available in N. America. It kind of takes away from the Japanese aspect, to me. That's likely part of the reason I dislike shun, when so many people love them! Strangely, I still don't hate global! Haha. Go figure.
                                                    I'm very happy I own my Misono!

                              2. re: Leftychefty
                                grnidkjun Jan 3, 2011 10:44 AM

                                I'm glad to see the update.. I was curious what you had decided on. And am glad to see you received one you are enjoying and had such great customer service with as well!

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