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TC Just Desserts: Finale [spoiler]

n
newhavener07 Nov 17, 2010 06:13 PM

Wow, male toplessness, homophobic slurs and the use of the word "ass clown" -- and we're only 13 minutes in. This is going to be good!

  1. n
    newhavener07 Nov 17, 2010 06:26 PM

    OK, we have a winner in the least convincing emotional moment sweepstakes: Morgan! Wow, unremitting jerkwad the entire season.

    1. n
      newhavener07 Nov 17, 2010 07:03 PM

      Yay, good ending, although my sympathies had shifted a bit toward the end and I was hoping for an underdog upset...tebrikler to the winner!

      1. b
        browneyedwoman Nov 17, 2010 07:13 PM

        I just missed the last 5 minutes! Who won???

        4 Replies
        1. re: browneyedwoman
          c
          cmvan Nov 17, 2010 07:43 PM

          No spoiler header.

          Yigit, but it was close.

          1. re: cmvan
            b
            browneyedwoman Nov 17, 2010 08:38 PM

            Oh good! Couldn't believe I missed it at the last minute...even though Morgan created amazing final desserts I would've totally cringed if he'd won. Yigit deserved the win : ) I was also happy that Danielle did such a great job. I can see how it would've been a close finally.

            1. re: cmvan
              t
              taos Nov 18, 2010 07:40 AM

              How do we know it was close? It's not like they showed a scorecard. I think the editors showed positive comments about all three chefs to keep the suspense high. My interpretation was that Yigit won by a comfortable margin.

              1. re: taos
                chowser Nov 19, 2010 04:01 AM

                Yeah, it's always "close" on these shows even if it's not. A fallen souffle can't win, no matter how they spin it.

          2. pitu Nov 17, 2010 08:09 PM

            Yeah! Yigit! Overcomes nerves! Makes prizewinning work!
            I still wonder what Heather would have done at this level...and how professional and gracious of her to just work, when she gets stuck with her foe Morgan. Also in the episode, Morgan's celebrity sous chef confirmed his jerkitude, and Morgan talks about wanting to pound Zac in the face if it wouldn't get him kicked off the show. Jeez.

            Glad to see them all do very very nice work in the finale.

            11 Replies
            1. re: pitu
              b
              bimmertimmer Nov 18, 2010 04:40 AM

              I agree that Yigit should have won. Interesting point of view and flawless execution. As far as Morgan goes, a couple of points. He was portrayed as the villian from the beginning simply because he was different than the other males on the show. Editing is everything as we all know. There was certainly much bashing of him simply because he was not a bird of a feather. He acted like a jerk occasionally, but it was was emphasized in editing. Actually, I think Heather (who you mention) was much more offensive than Morgan, and I used to belong to the country club where she cooks. What else do you think she could have done other than behave like a professional. No extra points for that. If I had been Morgan, I would have refused her help. I am surprized that no one seems to have taken offense that Morgan's "celebrity" sous chef announced her dislike for him to the judging panel before they tried his offering. Talk about unprofessional, inappropriate and predudicial. Anyway, much drama, the right person likely won, and I fould it mildly entertaining. By the way, I am not prone to violence, but I want to punch Zack too. Just kidding.

              1. re: bimmertimmer
                t
                tofuburrito Nov 18, 2010 06:11 AM

                Agree with everything bimmertimmer said.
                I wanted to Danielle to win ever since she made the baseball dessert for her dad.

                1. re: bimmertimmer
                  aching Nov 18, 2010 11:42 AM

                  I agree with bimmertimmer too - except that I don't think Morgan was even really portrayed as a villain. Confident, yes, competitive, occasionally cocky, but with the skills to back it up. I'm surprised that as many people disliked him as apparently do - I liked him, and I really thought he was going to win (and deservedly so). Based on what we saw of the judging, I think if not for the mishap with the souffles, he probably would have won. But Yigit seemed to have perfect execution on this challenge, and his desserts were sophisticated and looked beautiful - so good on him!

                  1. re: bimmertimmer
                    s
                    selenster Nov 18, 2010 12:23 PM

                    agreed; i was aghast when heather h was shown whining about the past competitions and saying how she didn't want him to win. i'm sure it was just editing to make for more interesting drama, but it looked like she deliberately set out to undermine him. this, of course, probably wasn't true since she helped calm him down when plating the collapsing souffles and insisted that the perfect ones go out to the judges.

                    while it seemed morgan was a strong contender with excellent skill & technique sets, ultimately the most creative and deserving person won.

                    1. re: bimmertimmer
                      cowboyardee Nov 18, 2010 01:07 PM

                      I'll state the obvious re: Morgan's edit -

                      I didn't see the entire series, or even most of it. From what I saw, I was at times inclined to sympathize with Morgan as being competent, competitive, and serious (all fine qualities in my book), but thrown into the adversarial/villain's role for being different from his competitors.

                      Problem is the homophobic slurs - you just can't go on TV, make bigoted remarks, and then blame your vilification on the editing.

                    2. re: pitu
                      b
                      Brioche57 Nov 18, 2010 11:59 AM

                      Well as an openly gay man I find Zac very, very offensive and feel he's probably set the LGBT movement back 20 or 30 years with his cliche gay man persona. That ridiculous and immature GoDiva B.S. - his "pissy queen" B.S. and the fact that he just wasn't good enough and lasted much longer then he should have. Morgan is far from perfect, but he has the credentials and the talent to back up his behavior AND he's really no different then any chef/cook/pastry diva I've worked with.

                      1. re: Brioche57
                        ipsedixit Nov 18, 2010 01:21 PM

                        Well, as an openly heterosexual Chowhound, I find that Morgan set the heterosexual movement back at least 2 or 3 days.

                        Kidding, of course. Kidding ...

                        1. re: ipsedixit
                          b
                          Brioche57 Nov 18, 2010 02:39 PM

                          Now that's funny.

                          1. re: ipsedixit
                            toutefrite Nov 21, 2010 09:11 PM

                            HAHA!! oh my god, so true. I would rather fling myself over the TV to prevent my son from watching Morgan rather than Zack!

                          2. re: Brioche57
                            huiray Nov 19, 2010 12:25 PM

                            Ditto.

                            From what I see, Morgan had no particular problem with Yigit, a gay man, and got on well with Eric, another gay man. He had real bad problems with one gay person, Zac. So do you and I, it would seem.

                          3. re: pitu
                            huiray Nov 19, 2010 12:36 PM

                            I'm not sure that Fleming particularly "confirmed his (Morgan's) jerkitude". She expressed her (unprofessional) opinion at the table that he was a 'typical male pastry chef'. She did not say he was a vile person or words to that effect. I would even infer that she probably thinks of most male pastry chefs in a similar way, from her use of the word 'typical...'. Perhaps that is incorect, but that is what came across.

                            It also seemed to me from what the magical elves showed us that there was definitely a personality/chemistry clash between Morgan and her right from the start, from her stiff-necked nose-high response to him when they were introduced by Johnny Iuzzini. Morgan's technical explanation of the chemistry behind his ideas did not seem overbearing to me. I would have tried to learn from it rather than take offense at it - Fleming's 'old-school' approach to her food appeared to get in the way of her being open to new things. She may have been around for a long time but Morgan is by no means a novice in the field.

                          4. d
                            dach Nov 18, 2010 05:37 AM

                            Nice ending. The judge and show put a mostly positive spin on the finalists.

                            Morgan still got quite the asshole edit, as with putting AC on high, to discomfort of Yigit, and the negative impression he left on his guest celebrity sous (that's a bad indicator). But Morgan really embracing the role, and as they say, the editors can only work with the material you give them. I don't think he's as bad as he's made out in editing... the other contestants seem to still mostly tolerate and respect him. -- unlike wacko Seth.

                            I'm glad Danielle did well. I think she'll get the biggest boost - from obscure smalltime pastry chef/owner, to a place to try for good flavors. Yigit and Morgan are already established fine restaurant pastry chefs.

                            I will most remember TCJD for ... Ahh... Seth. How true that bad behavior will get you remembered on reality TV. "Red Hots for my MOMMIE!!!" --- "[Breyers is] Weak Sauce!" -- Seth

                            39 Replies
                            1. re: dach
                              s
                              selenster Nov 18, 2010 09:40 AM

                              i went on a date with seth after the show taped but before it aired. "the red hots are for my mommy" will live on in infamy amongst me and my friends :(

                              anyway, what i will always remember is zac saying about danielle (during a one-on-one confessional): "YOU LOOK LIKE MARILYN MANSON AND YOU CAN'T COOK." so hilarious.

                              1. re: selenster
                                LaPomme Nov 18, 2010 11:31 AM

                                Oh, you can't merely mention a date with Seth and provide no further insight! Would you have guessed that he melted down in the way that he did? Did he regularly use the term "weak sauce"?

                                1. re: LaPomme
                                  s
                                  selenster Nov 18, 2010 12:26 PM

                                  without getting into personal details, i didn't think he would act the way he did on the program, but things that he told me during our time together would indicate that there are reasons why he was the way he is, if that makes sense. he was very confident and cocky, and i sure as heck didn't see the panic attacks and histrionic fits coming (or his unceremonious departure). he had told me "i was proud of how i did" which, after watching the show, is kind of funny, because he didn't fare all too well.

                                  i do remember him saying that he got along well with only one other cast mate, "the only other heterosexual male" which means morgan. it seemed by the end of seth's run, even morgan was exasperated w/ seth's antics though.

                                  1. re: selenster
                                    aching Nov 18, 2010 12:44 PM

                                    More proof that so much is created in the editing. Probably none of us would seem that normal if we were taped for several days but only the weirdest 15 minutes were shown!

                                    1. re: selenster
                                      s
                                      selenster Nov 18, 2010 01:52 PM

                                      also, the situation that they're all thrust into is not normal by any means; it's a high pressure experience where you're not allowed to talk to anyone else outside of those within the production, if i'm not mistaken (i do believe that's the case with most of these reality show competitions). i would probably dissolve into a pool of babbling bacon grease given those stressors.

                                      i mean, had it just been the situation where he put the pans on his head to shut out the cameras (that was funny), i wouldn't think twice. but add up the accusations of everyone out to sabotage him, his near breakdown re: the red hots and again during the greyhound situation, and...it just makes for entertaining tv at the expense of him.

                                      1. re: selenster
                                        chowser Nov 19, 2010 04:14 AM

                                        After seeing the meltdown, is he someone you'd consider dating again? My first thought after seeing the "The red hots are for my mommy!" episode is that he's just guaranteed he'll never have a decent date.

                                        1. re: chowser
                                          s
                                          selenster Nov 19, 2010 06:01 AM

                                          haha after one date i opted not to see him again when he asked for a follow up (this was back in april, perhaps?) and upon viewing the program - especially the red hots scene - i smugly realized i avoided disaster. and i'm known for making poor romantic decisions! :)

                                          1. re: selenster
                                            chowser Nov 19, 2010 08:32 AM

                                            Sounds like you dodged a big one!

                                        2. re: selenster
                                          h
                                          hobbess Nov 21, 2010 03:34 PM

                                          Maybe, its just me, but I always got a slight ping on my gaydar with Seth.

                                      2. re: selenster
                                        C. Hamster Nov 23, 2010 07:39 AM

                                        OMG! Did mom come on the date? Or did he take her call in the middle of it, at least?

                                        1. re: C. Hamster
                                          s
                                          selenster Nov 23, 2010 07:59 AM

                                          heh, alas, red hot mommy did not attend. also, i tried to get very drunk but failed on the watered down drinks at the restaurant we were at.

                                      3. re: dach
                                        aching Nov 18, 2010 11:36 AM

                                        Oh, I didn't think that bit about the air conditioning made Morgan look bad at all - I thought it made Yigit look like a whiny little brat. My husband leaves the AC on all the time - he's a big guy and he gets hot. If it makes me cold, I get up and turn it off. How hard is that? What a baby!

                                        1. re: aching
                                          n
                                          newhavener07 Nov 18, 2010 01:01 PM

                                          I can't get over the love for Morgan--yes he did get the "villain edit" but he gave them plenty to work with--has any other TC contenstant been so openly insulting of another contestant as he was of Zac? Zac was a bit over the top but calling him a "little girl," a "fairy" and that show tunes crack was over the line into downright homophobic, in my view. I wouldn't patronize any restaurant he was a part of, even if he is talented. Judging by what was aired, I think the producers may have struggled to find any footage that DIDN'T show him to be an ass clown. And I'm sorry, that moment when he teared up over his son was about the fakest "I miss my brat" moment of any TC so far.

                                          1. re: newhavener07
                                            t
                                            tofuburrito Nov 18, 2010 01:53 PM

                                            I think most of them were openly insulting of one another.

                                            1. re: tofuburrito
                                              LaPomme Nov 19, 2010 09:31 AM

                                              True, but think of how obviously bigoted it would have been if Morgan had decided he didn't like Heather because she was so "flamingly Asian" and brought up her race in every interview. This is basically what he did to Zac, only it was Zac's sexuality he was obsessed with.

                                              1. re: LaPomme
                                                s
                                                selenster Nov 19, 2010 09:38 AM

                                                agreed, lapomme. the digs at zac's sexuality were unnecessary. i mean, sure, he can dislike the constant show tunes, but referring to zac as "girlish" or "flaming" is problematic.

                                                1. re: selenster
                                                  chowser Nov 19, 2010 09:55 AM

                                                  Methinks Morgan protests too much. Guys who are secure in their heterosexuality don't have to make comments like that.

                                                  1. re: chowser
                                                    s
                                                    selenster Nov 19, 2010 10:46 AM

                                                    i just think he's a clueless dude from texas who's absolutely ignorant about gender/sexual politics.

                                                  2. re: selenster
                                                    t
                                                    tofuburrito Nov 23, 2010 07:06 AM

                                                    Zac is intentionally girlish so being referred to that way is less problematic than hearing Danielle referred to as Marilyn Manson look alike. Apparently that comment was okay, and funny. In my mind it was cruel and if you're going to insult others then don't turn into a cry baby when you're called out.

                                                    1. re: tofuburrito
                                                      s
                                                      selenster Nov 23, 2010 07:26 AM

                                                      well, sure, making fun of someone's face is cruel, but we're discussing gender and sexual politics which go above and beyond typical third grade "you so ugly the mirror broke" type insults. morgan's repeated comments about zac's predilection for show tunes and being effusive or whatever were rooted in queer bashing.

                                                      1. re: selenster
                                                        trolley Nov 23, 2010 08:05 AM

                                                        very true about morgan but zac's comment about danielle looking like marilyn manson is rooted in misogyny, in my opinion that is. whatever the case, after all was said and done glad yigit won and really glad the show is over and we can move on to hopefully a better TC.

                                                        1. re: selenster
                                                          t
                                                          tofuburrito Nov 23, 2010 08:58 AM

                                                          If memory serves correct those comments were in response to Zac criticizing Morgan's stoic personality at judges table. And what would Zac's insults be rooted in; straight bashing?

                                                          1. re: tofuburrito
                                                            s
                                                            selenster Nov 23, 2010 10:01 AM

                                                            no, it would be marilyn manson bashing. heh. sorry.

                                                            1. re: tofuburrito
                                                              NellyNel Nov 23, 2010 10:56 AM

                                                              Touche!

                                                            2. re: selenster
                                                              John E. Nov 23, 2010 09:21 AM

                                                              Except that he didn't bash Eric or Yigit so I think he had more of a problem with Zac than he did with Zac's sexual preferences. I found Morgan's behavior to be at times inexcusable as was Zac's when he called out Morgan in front of the judeges (for no good reason I add). Zaz was just plain annoying in the edited version. Imagine living and working with him daily for several weeks. Looking at it that way, Morgan may have shown a lot of restraint before finally succumbing to the pressure of the interviewer that was obviously constantly asking him what he thought of Zac. Remember, those interviews are done by producers who know what they are doing. They can elicit whatever responses they desire. The one seeming exception to that might have been Brian Voltaggio from TC season 6, he seemed to keep above all the negativity and focussed on cooking instead of personalities (except of course for his exchanges with his own brother).

                                                              1. re: John E.
                                                                s
                                                                selenster Nov 23, 2010 10:04 AM

                                                                you have a valid point. i think what to me comes off as gay bashing is the dislike of the gendered actions (ie: the "feminine" seeming antics of zac). actually, in retrospect, "gay bashing" is the wrong term. it's just an adherence to old school gender norms, which bothers me.

                                                                and bryan voltaggio was a robot on that season, and michael was always haranguing the heck out of him.

                                                                1. re: John E.
                                                                  chowser Nov 23, 2010 10:21 AM

                                                                  Maybe Zac and Morgan need to spend some quality time with each other because they were both unbearable towards each other. In Season 6, the Volt brothers were openly competitive in a brotherly way but the top 4 obviously has high respect for each other, and deservedly so. I do think Morgan was gracious in losing to Yigit in acknowledging his talent.

                                                          2. re: LaPomme
                                                            NellyNel Nov 23, 2010 10:37 AM

                                                            So not true!!

                                                            He was referring to his "fairy-ish" behaviour - not his sexuality. Two completely different things.

                                                            Also, I am female, but I take offense to that Gail woman (or whatever her name was saying he is a "typical MALE chef"
                                                            I mean - isnt THAT a sexist remark???

                                                            If it were a man saying "typical FEMALE Chef" - wouldnt we all be in uproar???

                                                            I hate double standards!!!

                                                            1. re: NellyNel
                                                              pitu Nov 23, 2010 11:59 AM

                                                              I hear what you're saying about double standards, except historic inequities are what is being addressed when a top of line professional woman makes a comment like that.
                                                              straight:gay
                                                              white:non-white
                                                              male:female
                                                              All about dominant culture over a historically oppressed group
                                                              I know others will differ, but we are not post-gay, post-racial, post-misogynist in America. And boy does THAT get played out on reality shows!
                                                              I swear, I want to watch the cooking and all this STUFF keeps getting in the way!

                                                              1. re: pitu
                                                                NellyNel Nov 23, 2010 12:02 PM

                                                                I agree with you there - absolutely.

                                                                but things will never move ahead if we as women keep bringing "sex" up.
                                                                A chef is a chef is a chef. There is no sex to Chef.
                                                                We are now the ones to are being sexist. It will never end if we continue to do this.

                                                        2. re: newhavener07
                                                          n
                                                          nerfTractor Nov 18, 2010 01:54 PM

                                                          I must agree about the "editing" of Morgan. You can do a lot with editing, but you can't make words come out of the man's mouth that he didn't say. His comments speak for themselves, although of course, there must be miles of footage that we will never see. Producers of these types of shows are widely known to coach certain contestants into playing their various roles. All that being said, I live here in Dallas, where Morgan is purportedly employed, and the distastefulness of his persona will keep me from seeking out his wares, however tasteful and tasty they may be (and they admittedly looked pretty impressive much of the time).

                                                          I was very happy for Yigit's win. The praise for his desserts around that entire room of high-powered judges and tasters was uniformly high. It's always frustrating that we can't taste or even smell what we are seeing. But this kid seemed to be bursting with talent, a true America Land of the Free success story, and yeah, for once, the "cute, nice guy" took it all home.

                                                          I'd like to see more from Erika, who seemed to be a class act and a great chef. Her too-early departure was my biggest disappointment of the season.

                                                          Seth falls into the above category of "You can bump up the crazy in the editing room, but there has to be some crazy there to edit." His desserts didn't seem appealing, and his unwillingness to take any challenge on its own terms really contributed to the overall impression of a poor sport, not to mention a highly disruptive one.

                                                          1. re: nerfTractor
                                                            p
                                                            piccola Nov 19, 2010 04:23 AM

                                                            Morgan was both homophobic and mysogynistic -- a bad combo. I can't imagine feeling comfortable working in the same kitchen as him, after the comments he made during the dress challenge.

                                                            And yes, his celebrity sous openly admitted she didn't like him, but she still found his desserts pretty awesome, with the exception of the fallen soufflé. So I don't think it affected his score.

                                                            1. re: piccola
                                                              b
                                                              Brioche57 Nov 20, 2010 07:41 PM

                                                              "Morgan was both homophobic and mysogynistic"

                                                              Welcome to the world of the professional kitchen. Believe me, I know.

                                                              1. re: Brioche57
                                                                p
                                                                piccola Nov 21, 2010 03:30 PM

                                                                That makes me sad. :(

                                                          2. re: newhavener07
                                                            aching Nov 18, 2010 02:11 PM

                                                            All I was saying is that if you're cold, it's on you to turn of the AC! =)

                                                            1. re: newhavener07
                                                              chowser Nov 19, 2010 04:13 AM

                                                              Ditto. Could he beat his chest any harder? When your sous-chef dislikes you after a few hours, there is something more than just editing.

                                                            2. re: aching
                                                              chowser Nov 19, 2010 04:05 AM

                                                              I don't like Morgan but I agree w/ you. At this point, there are several empty beds. Get up and move.

                                                              1. re: aching
                                                                d
                                                                Dee S Nov 20, 2010 05:56 PM

                                                                I wasn't going to chime in on this thread but aching, you said what I was thinking! If his bed was directly under the AC vent, he probably could have moved it (or moved to another bed). For cripe's sake, put on your big girl pants and stand up for yourself! I have passive agressive behavior but again, this could have been a situation played up by the editors.

                                                                All said, I thought the finale was great and was impressed with all three chef's work. I believe Yigit's techniques and his theme were the best. I would have loved to been at that table!

                                                                1. re: Dee S
                                                                  trolley Nov 21, 2010 12:48 PM

                                                                  or turned off the AC himself! what a baby! but then again he's pretty young. glad morgan broke up team diva but after that i couldn't careless what happened to him. he was as obnoxious as heather and zac. somehow i ended up rooting for danielle in the end but thought the win was well deserved by yigit, baby or not.

                                                            3. chowser Nov 19, 2010 04:11 AM

                                                              I think how they worked with their sous chefs is telling. It was fun watching Yigit and Sherry work together. Did Danielle really use Elizabeth Faulkner to shell pistachios? Fleming calling Morgan out showed that it's more than just editing that made him the "villain". She only worked with him a few hours and figured him out. I'm so happy for Yigit for winning and happy for Danielle for doing well. Is it bad when the bar is set so low that not messing up is good?

                                                              24 Replies
                                                              1. re: chowser
                                                                NellyNel Nov 23, 2010 10:43 AM

                                                                How do you know that?
                                                                How do you know Fleming is not an idiot?
                                                                Do you know her personally?

                                                                As I mentioned above, I was offended by HER sexist comment.

                                                                BTW - I dont' care about Morgan either way, but I don't see any reason to bash him.

                                                                1. re: NellyNel
                                                                  Caitlin McGrath Nov 23, 2010 11:37 AM

                                                                  Not to dispute your opinion of what Fleming said about Morgan (because of course you are entirely entitled to it), but I assume that Fleming saying that Morgan behaved like "a typical male pastry chef" was based on a combination of her experiences as a pastry chef and her experience working with Morgan, which was clearly not positive and obviously recalled to her previous encounters with men who she felt had similar attitudes. She was commenting on her in-person experience with Morgan, which is something none of us here have had. That doesn't mean you have to give it any credence if you choose not to, or think it is appropriate or admire it, but it certainly wasn't manipulated by editing. It's pretty different than viewers "bashing" Morgan based on the editor-crafted story we see throughout the course of the show.

                                                                  I don't know Claudia Fleming personally, and have no idea what her personality is like or how she is to work with (though I've certainly never heard anything negative), but I know from personal experience eating her food (at Gramercy Tavern when she was pastry chef there) and using her cookbook, that she is a brilliant pastry chef. I doubt very much that she is an idiot.

                                                                  1. re: Caitlin McGrath
                                                                    NellyNel Nov 23, 2010 11:54 AM

                                                                    Oh - I don't think she is an idiot either.

                                                                    My point was
                                                                    A) I found her "male" comment to be quite sexist.
                                                                    B) Just because SHE didnt like working with him - it doesn't automatically make him an idiot. (As chowser seemingly suggest)
                                                                    and, seriously just because someone is brillant at their job - it also doesnt automatically, make them NOT an idiot!

                                                                    1. re: NellyNel
                                                                      Caitlin McGrath Nov 23, 2010 12:17 PM

                                                                      I don't think that chowser suggested that Morgan is an idiot (she certainly doesn't say that in her post). She'll have to tell us, but what I understood chowser to be saying is that Fleming's reaction suggests that some of what the other contestants had to say about Morgan and some of his more abrasive comments reflect what was real, rather than a created "villain" pieced together by the editors to provide someone to root against. (As is clear from the threads here, some viewers liked Morgan and some did not; regardless, he was positioned as the "villain" by the producers in their storyline, as someone always is on these shows.)

                                                                      To me, Morgan seemed somewhat dismissive of Fleming, though that could be editing, so perhaps the feeling was mutual. Clearly, their personalities, working styles, and approaches to pastry weren't complementary.

                                                                      1. re: NellyNel
                                                                        chowser Nov 23, 2010 12:19 PM

                                                                        It seemed across the board that most of the contestants didn't like working with him. Fleming was an impartial person on the show and felt the same way. Maybe she's an idiot as your original assertion but given how everyone else seemed to respond to him and her opinion was along the same lines, I tend to go with that since I don't know any of them. If you want to attribute it to her being an idiot, that's your prerogative. FWIW, I never called Morgan an idiot, as you said I "seemingly" said.

                                                                        The question is why are you so offended by her comment about Morgan and yet don't have, or at least expressed offense by Morgan's comments about fairies and little girls against Zac? I find that far more offensive that someone saying, in her dealings, Morgan exhibits the same traits as the typical male pastry chefs.

                                                                        1. re: chowser
                                                                          NellyNel Nov 23, 2010 12:32 PM

                                                                          I never did say I thought she was an idiot!
                                                                          All I said was "How do you (or me) know she is NOT! - We don't.

                                                                          I take the fairy/little girl comment as an attack on his BEHAVIOR - not his sexuality.
                                                                          That's why.
                                                                          (I have called DH a little girl - when his whiny behavior reminded me of such)

                                                                          I find any reference to a person's sex in a professional situation insulting.
                                                                          We all should do.

                                                                          1. re: NellyNel
                                                                            chowser Nov 23, 2010 12:43 PM

                                                                            You implied she might be an idiot rather than thinking her opinion could be valid. That could be true of anyone, anywhere for any opinion. But, she is well respected, not just as a pastry chef, and her opinions are no different from others on the show. If that's your first thought when you don't necessarily agree w/ someone, then so be it. I prefer to go by the whole situation.

                                                                            Why is it wrong to talk about typical male behavior but perfectly okay to slam homosexual stereotypes? It's both about Morgan and Zac's behavior.

                                                                            I find any reference to another man's behavior as "fairy-like" and "little girl" in a professional situation insulting. We all should.

                                                                            1. re: chowser
                                                                              NellyNel Nov 23, 2010 12:50 PM

                                                                              No, I certainly did NOT imply that she was an idiot.
                                                                              I won't repeat my original intention.

                                                                              She used his sex AS a stereo-typical .description
                                                                              Morgan did NOT
                                                                              Morgan did not say : He was acting like a "GAY fairy" or a "GAY little girl.
                                                                              there is a huge difference.

                                                                              If Fleming had said "Typical MACHO behavior" = that would not have phased me in the least
                                                                              Or "Typical ASSHOLE" behavior - would have been perfectly..fine.
                                                                              (because she was describing a behavior without bringing his sex - which has nothing to do with being an idiot - into it.

                                                                              1. re: NellyNel
                                                                                Caitlin McGrath Nov 23, 2010 01:05 PM

                                                                                I'm sorry, but I find it very difficult to believe that Morgan would have likened Zac to a fairy or a little girl if he were not a flamboyant gay man. The "gay" was certainly implied, especially if you take into account all Morgan's disparaging comments about the aspects of Zac's personality that he regarded as stereotypically gay (show tunes, etc.). Those terms were used by Morgan because of Zac's sexual orientation and related way of expressing himself, not despite it. He was, in every sense, using those words in a stereotypical description. Fairy is slang for a gay man, after all; it is not used to refer to heterosexual men unless it is to imply they are gay or to liken them to gay men as an insult.

                                                                                1. re: Caitlin McGrath
                                                                                  NellyNel Nov 23, 2010 01:15 PM

                                                                                  I don't think he would have called the guy that won a fairy, because that guy didnt act like one.
                                                                                  Clearly, a few gay posters above thought Zac acted like a fairy, and had no problem with the description.

                                                                                  I have a gay friend who acts like a fairy, and he wouldnt be insulted if I said so.

                                                                                  I have a husband who is not gay, but acts like a little girl!

                                                                                  I just think you are being very very PC.fair enough.

                                                                                  1. re: Caitlin McGrath
                                                                                    chowser Nov 23, 2010 01:34 PM

                                                                                    Exactly-- he used it in a derogatory manner. He was clearly putting Zac down by using it, not just using it descriptively. Intent is important.

                                                                                2. re: chowser
                                                                                  chowser Nov 23, 2010 12:54 PM

                                                                                  For the record, I enjoyed her Gramercy cookbook and thought it was well written.

                                                                                  She doesn't sound like an idiot below either. But, then I don't know her former bosses, including Tom Colicchio and they could all be idiots, too.

                                                                                  http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi...

                                                                                  1. re: chowser
                                                                                    NellyNel Nov 23, 2010 01:02 PM

                                                                                    LOL!!!!

                                                                                    I don't think she is an idiot!!!

                                                                                    1. re: NellyNel
                                                                                      chowser Nov 23, 2010 01:32 PM

                                                                                      Okay, sorry. Since you asked me in the beginning...

                                                                                      "How do you know Fleming is not an idiot?
                                                                                      Do you know her personally?"

                                                                                      I thought I'd respond to your questions.

                                                                                      1. re: chowser
                                                                                        t
                                                                                        tofuburrito Nov 23, 2010 03:04 PM

                                                                                        If Zac didn't want to be referred to as girly maybe he shouldn't have joined "Team Diva."
                                                                                        Apparently, because of historical oppression, Zac is free to say whatever he wants about anyone, but no one can respond in kind without being labeled a hater.
                                                                                        I wonder how Danielle and her family felt when they watched the Marilyn Manson comment. I'm sure that they thought it was funny because they know Zac's group has been historically oppressed and didn't take any offense to such a rude, thoughtless comment.

                                                                                3. re: NellyNel
                                                                                  aching Nov 23, 2010 03:20 PM

                                                                                  LOL - I have called my straight male colleagues "little girls" many times when they were being whiny and immature! As in, "Stop crying like a little girl." =)

                                                                                  1. re: aching
                                                                                    LaPomme Nov 24, 2010 08:06 AM

                                                                                    Why do you use "little girl" as an insult? Do girls have a monopoly on emotional weakness? You might want to question why you use femininity as an insult. Same goes for the "fairy" and "show tunes" jabs: they imply that there is something inferior and undesirable about traits perceived to be feminine or homosexual. There is nothing weak or wrong with being a girl or being gay.

                                                                                    1. re: LaPomme
                                                                                      s
                                                                                      selenster Nov 24, 2010 08:11 AM

                                                                                      well said.

                                                                                      1. re: LaPomme
                                                                                        t
                                                                                        tofuburrito Nov 24, 2010 08:25 AM

                                                                                        Agreed but Morgan was saying that his way of reacting to information was not like Zac's, which could be described as similar to how little girls react to things or as flamboyant as actors in a musical. Again, this was in response to Zac criticizing him for not showing what he considered the proper amount of emotion to feedback at judge's table.

                                                                                        1. re: tofuburrito
                                                                                          aching Nov 24, 2010 03:48 PM

                                                                                          Well said.

                                                                                          1. re: tofuburrito
                                                                                            chowser Nov 24, 2010 03:57 PM

                                                                                            That was not the only time Morgan made comments against homosexuals. His fairy and little girl comments were a slam on Zac's homosexuality. He would not have said that to Danielle or Seth, had they said the same thing as Zac. It would be like his calling a guy who is African American a "boy" and then having people defend it because they call other men "boys." It's a loaded term and in this case, clearly chosen because they are.

                                                                                            1. re: chowser
                                                                                              John E. Nov 24, 2010 07:07 PM

                                                                                              in libel and slander the truth is a defense. Does that apply here?

                                                                                              1. re: John E.
                                                                                                MplsM ary Nov 24, 2010 08:28 PM

                                                                                                Gloriosky dude- its Top Chef Just Desserts. Not that Morgan wasn't an ass - seems they all were with or without editing. It ain't real.

                                                                                                Having said that I was actually hoping the fellow with the name I can finally pronounce would win. And he did. So, Whoopee Yigit sez me.

                                                                                          2. re: LaPomme
                                                                                            s
                                                                                            Siun Nov 24, 2010 09:05 PM

                                                                                            Thank you LaPomme!

                                                                                            This acceptance of clearly sexist language is quite disappointing.

                                                                            2. a
                                                                              a213b Nov 19, 2010 06:29 AM

                                                                              As someone who is heavily involved with reality television (including several food shows/competition shows), I just want to clear a couple of things up with respect to editing.

                                                                              1) Producers absolutely DO "coach up" characters/contestants, especially as character "arcs" and story lines are seen developing. Not only this, but some interviewers are VERY skilled in extracting emotions (tears, anger, etc), as well as coaxing individuals to say something they would not normally EVER say.

                                                                              2) While most people may not be aware, interview bites are HEAVILY edited -- so in essence, yes we CAN make someone say almost anything in interview. We call it "Franken-biting". With a show like TC (and TC Desserts), bites are heavily edited to build drama/tension/conflict, as well as to set up and pay off story arcs (from major to minor).

                                                                              Some of these Franken-bites are particularly egregious, though if you are not used to working in the industry you most likely won't catch them. In this finale, there was one particularly glaring one from Morgan. While I don't remember the exact words, 'twas the one wherein (I believe) he stated he'd tasted his other competitors food and his was better/he would win -- I remember thinking at the time - and remarking to my wife - that he absolutely did not say that; in fact he most likely said he'd tasted his competitors food and it was outstanding and he wasn't sure who would win, or something along that sentiment.

                                                                              A general rule of thumb for those of you who enjoy reality television -- when it comes to interview bites, if you aren't seeing the person speak on camera, it's at LEAST 50/50 what you are hearing has been edited. Sometimes it's simply for brevity, others it's to completely fabricate a thought/sentiment dramatic point.

                                                                              *caveat: I do not work on TC:JD, though I know many of the people who do. Just want to throw that out there for full disclosure.

                                                                              11 Replies
                                                                              1. re: a213b
                                                                                aching Nov 19, 2010 06:40 AM

                                                                                Thanks for sharing! I had already suspected this, but it's really interesting to hear about it from someone on the inside...

                                                                                1. re: aching
                                                                                  ipsedixit Nov 19, 2010 09:42 AM

                                                                                  Gives a whole new meaning to "reality" television doesn't it?

                                                                                  1. re: ipsedixit
                                                                                    chowser Nov 19, 2010 09:53 AM

                                                                                    I think the term "unscripted" works better.

                                                                                    1. re: chowser
                                                                                      a
                                                                                      a213b Nov 19, 2010 10:42 AM

                                                                                      And that's exactly the term we use ... helps nicely to get around that difficult idea that what you are seeing is exactly as it happens.

                                                                                      This being said, UK reality television adheres much more closely with what actually happened.

                                                                                      1. re: a213b
                                                                                        huiray Nov 19, 2010 11:01 AM

                                                                                        ...and with thanks to a213b perhaps people should revisit the reasons for all their virulent Morgan-hate.

                                                                                        1. re: huiray
                                                                                          p
                                                                                          piccola Nov 19, 2010 06:24 PM

                                                                                          Yes and no. I've always looked at these people as characters, regardless of the fact that they're technically real people. Sure, the "real" Morgan is probably completely different, but I don't know that guy - I only know the creation that appears on the show, and that's what I'm judging.

                                                                                          1. re: piccola
                                                                                            chowser Nov 20, 2010 04:17 AM

                                                                                            That's the beauty of it all--it's like fiction and we can make the person into whomever we want. Danielle could be the most serious botoxed, best pastry chef ever, if that's how you want to see her. Clips of her didn't show it, nor did clips of Morgan show him to be the sweet and sensitive type but it's all in our minds anyway.

                                                                                          2. re: huiray
                                                                                            c
                                                                                            cabking Nov 30, 2010 01:03 PM

                                                                                            Morgan must have, at one time and another, made reference to hitting or punching. He was not talking about dough. These words were not made up.

                                                                                            He was either a complete fiction or a jerk. I'm guessing the latter only beacuse I'm certain that a low budget snooze fest like TC JD would not have spent a lot of time completely and thoroughly fabricating his persona down to the dislike of every contestant or the piecing together of every sentence out of his mouth to make him seem like someone he was completely not.

                                                                                            1. re: cabking
                                                                                              huiray Nov 30, 2010 03:41 PM

                                                                                              "Morgan must have, at one time and another, made reference to hitting or punching. "
                                                                                              ----------
                                                                                              <Shrug> No more than other males like him have done so in RL.

                                                                                              =========
                                                                                              "...down to the dislike of every contestant..."
                                                                                              ----------
                                                                                              I don't find this true even on the edited show as seen.

                                                                                              1. re: cabking
                                                                                                a
                                                                                                a213b Dec 1, 2010 09:20 AM

                                                                                                Obviously you are entitled to your opinion, but just an FYI I think you would be shocked at the budgets some of these shows have.

                                                                                                And I don't recall anyone (least of all myself) claiming his entire persona was fabricated. My point is simply that there are all sorts of tricks/techniques/methods for eliciting sentences, words, thoughts, etc from interviewees. Interviewing is a skill, and there are some VERY talented individuals in the unscripted world.

                                                                                                Plus, in Post editors will use pieces of the same interview and spread them throughout a series -- especially if they are covered (i.e. the interviewee is not on camera but instead the bite is covered with broll).

                                                                                                I'm not advocating you feel one way or another ... just saying that we all have many tricks up our sleeves to build story and drama where oftentimes it is minimal at best.

                                                                                                And clearly it works.

                                                                                                1. re: a213b
                                                                                                  chowser Dec 1, 2010 11:02 AM

                                                                                                  In which case, we could all just stop discussing any of these shows because we have no idea what's happened, who said what, etc. In fact, that could be true of anything that happens in the world, other than what we see in front of our eyes and even that is suspect. We're all just living one big Truman show.

                                                                                  2. NellyNel Nov 23, 2010 10:53 AM

                                                                                    I didnt watch the entire season, but I did DVR it, and had a marathon viewing on Saturday!

                                                                                    I enjoyed it much more thanI though I would since I am not a "sweets" kind of girl...

                                                                                    Anyhow, this was the first TCD board I took a peek at, and I have to say I am shocked that the disparaging remarks are about Morgan!
                                                                                    Yikes!
                                                                                    It is amazing what different perspectives we all have.

                                                                                    To me, Heather was the most obnoxious cheftestant I have seen in a long while!

                                                                                    The time when she was pissed at Morgan because he won the challenge and she did most of the work.
                                                                                    Well, it wasn't his fault he won, it was the judges fault!! Maybe it wasnt fair, but why be mad at him?? It made no sense to me.

                                                                                    1. John E. Nov 23, 2010 02:52 PM

                                                                                      An interesting part of this is that if Morgan's souffle would have been perfect he likely would have won due to how well they liked his other plates especially the last one.

                                                                                      4 Replies
                                                                                      1. re: John E.
                                                                                        chowser Nov 23, 2010 03:11 PM

                                                                                        It was interesting that Heather H was the one to suggest giving the judges the best ones and who helped him focus when he realized they weren't ready and help him try to make it work. The souffle seemed to be his only flaw and there was no way the judges could award it to a fallen souffle. But, it was brave of him even to try to make a souffle since everyone knows the precision to making one. I thought it was nice when the other eliminated contestants commiserated about his running out of time because they knew what he was going through. That said, while I think it was close between Yigit and Morgan, even if the souffle had been perfect, I don't know if Morgan would have won (he might have but we have no idea, the editing is always made to look like it's closer than it is). But, when you come down to it, contestants are sent home for minor flaws, eg Jen in TC6 undersalted her pasta so a fallen souffle is a pretty big deal.

                                                                                        1. re: chowser
                                                                                          aching Nov 23, 2010 03:22 PM

                                                                                          I kind of got the impression that the tape they had on Heather grousing about Morgan was from earlier in the season and they just spliced it into this episode to create drama. I could be wrong, but it didn't seem like there was any of that going on in the kitchen.

                                                                                          1. re: aching
                                                                                            chowser Nov 23, 2010 03:33 PM

                                                                                            I liked seeing Heather H step up to the plate to try to help Morgan, especially with the souffles, and then Morgan saying Heather really helped him pull it together. It might not make as good drama but I like seeing professionals be professionals. I wonder how Heather H feels after seeing how catty she came off in those back room confessionals. She came off looking pretty bad.

                                                                                          2. re: chowser
                                                                                            c
                                                                                            cabking Nov 30, 2010 01:08 PM

                                                                                            It is actually super simple to make a souffle (few ingredients and standard timing), which is why he lost. I'm guessing it had more to do with the crummy GE ovens than Morgan, but at this point in TC history, everyone should figure in the poor performance of the sponsors equipment (GE ovens, ice cream makers, heck even the Dawn probably chaps your hands!).

                                                                                        2. trolley Dec 23, 2010 04:52 PM

                                                                                          I had yet another Danielle sighting. This time it was at our local farmers market. I was sorting thru the pears and she was doing the same thing. A person approached her and said she loved the show and she was a bit aloof about it. no weird face this time. just had to share b/c really i don't know anyone else who would remotely care.

                                                                                          1 Reply
                                                                                          1. re: trolley
                                                                                            d
                                                                                            dach Dec 25, 2010 01:40 AM

                                                                                            she has a hilarious self-bio video on her website http://www.bittersweettreats.com/

                                                                                          2. stilton Feb 13, 2011 12:19 AM

                                                                                            A recent article on Yigit Pura in a local paper:
                                                                                            http://www.ebar.com/news/article.php?...

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