Can't seem to find authentic Sichuan in NYC - Where's the ma 麻???
Hey Everyone. I spent a year in China, a month of which was in Sichuan and Yunnan provinces. As expected, I became addicted to the "ma" (tingling, soapy-numbing) in the food.
However, I have been searching for ma ever since I got back and haven't found it. I tried a few places in Brooklyn and one place in Chinatown (never been to any of the Grand Sichuans, though). Now I live in Astoria, and I just got back from Flushing. Long story short, I got the twice cooked pork at Spicy & Tasty, then went over to Little Pepper. Nothing. At Little Pepper, I even spoke to the owner - in Chinese - and explained that I loved BOTH hot and numbing food, and could she please recommend something. She pointed to a lamb dish, and I said fine.
What the heck's going on? In Shanghai, not to mention Chengdu, every time I ordered Sichuanese cuisine I was smacked in the face with the ma. Around here, it seems lost. The flavors are fine, the heat is fine, but...
Can anyone empathize? Am I just unlucky? Are my standards too unreasonable? I've seen the huajiao peppercorns sold around here, so I know they're around.
Anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks...
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Little Pepper
133-43 Roosevelt Ave, Queens, NY 11354
Spicy & Tasty
39-07 Prince St, Queens, NY 11354
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Since this thread has been revived, I thought I'd point out a restaurant that I noticed for the first time in Flushing a couple of weeks ago. It's on one of the less-traveled streets, and may have missed notice by many on this Board. It's called Spicy King and while I didn't eat there, with a name like that, bht2109 might like to at least see if the food lives up to the moniker. The location is on the east side of Farrington Street, between Northern Boulevard and 35th Avenue.
EDIT: The restaurant seems to be in the Chowhound library with a different cross street. Chowhound may be correct.
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Spicy King
35-34 Farrington St, Queens, NY 11354›3 Replies-
re: Greg
squid kun
May 13, 2011 10:09 AM
I entered that Chow record after passing by the place in January; wonder if it's moved or if there's a second location. I've been meaning to ask about it here, since there aren't many Hunanese restaurants around and Hunan House gets most of the attention.
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Hunan House
137-40 Northern Blvd, Queens, NY 11354
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i'm not that familiar with the sichuanese restaurants in Flushing, but I know Wu LIang Ye on 46th is better than the other Manhattan/midtown sichuanese places. So good that you usually "need" a reservation, but we sit at the bar. Last time I was back in the city I wen there for our one meal. Had the "Sichuanese noodle" which is not dan dan mien, but rather the inspiration for sesame noodles and a great whole fish with sichuanese peppercorns in teh sauce. twice cooked pork, ma po dofu, and kung pao chicken/shrimp are all excellent there and they have all the usual cold dishes which are also excellent.
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buttertart
Dec 7, 2010 05:42 PM
Popping in to say that the three chili chicken at Szechuan Gourmet in the 30's we had recently had lots and lots of ma going on in it. Big time. A super dish.
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re: diprey11
buttertart
Dec 12, 2010 09:25 AM
SG 39th St, we went to the 56th St one once and were served very nasty Americanized glop (have no idea why) so have never been back.
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This thread: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/299300 and others about the legality of Szechuan peppercorns may have something to do with the elusiveness of the Ma La numb-mouth experience. According to a wiki on the subject, since 2005 it IS legal to import Szechuan peppercorns, but they must be heat-treated to avoid transmission of "citrus canker." I wonder if the heat-treatment has any effect on their numbing qualities. Another possibility is that many restaurants have never really reincorporated the ingredient into their repertoire since "legalization." Of course that wouldn't seem to apply to newer places. All that by way of saying that although I only made one short trip to China, I too have found that I never quite get that same tingling, almost narcotic effect from Szechuan dishes eaten here.
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re: donflan
jen kalb
Dec 1, 2010 07:56 AM
thats not really an issue. there are a lot of the peppercorns around. But not all szechuan dishes use them to a large extent - there are plenty of great dishes that use chiles but not a big dose of powdered peppercorn. I bet tho, that if you and the op order some of the cold appetizer dishes with cilantro on them or else ma la tofu you will experience a major dose. Spicy and Tasty offers a large number of cold appetizers, some meat some vegetable. Personally I appreciate restaurants that dont carry it to an extreme, like Spicy Bampa in Brooklyn. Too much of the peppercorn and its sensually unpleasant - I cant taste anything else, a negative rather than a positive and dont associate a large dose of this spice with the very best cooking..
Finally, why not buy some sichuan peppercorn, roast it, grind it and take it along to season your own food to taste.?
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Spicy Bampa
6920 18th Ave, Brooklyn, NY 11204
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re: thew
UPDATE:
Ok. I give up. I went into Flushing again this afternoon on my Eternal Quest for Ma 麻, and I failed yet again.
First stop: Corner 28. I know it's not Sichuanese, but I heard so much about their duck buns, so I had to try them. As expected they were absurdly delicious, though next time I might ask them to go easy on the sauce so that the duck comes through a bit more. By the way, for those of you who like to practice your language skills and order in Chinese, they simply refer to them as "Beijing duck" (běijīng yā, 北京鴨). At least, that's what they told me when I asked...
Next, off to the Golden Market. The famed lamb burger (羊肉夾饃, yángròu jiāmó) at Xi'an Mingchi was stellar - again, as expected. A pretty pedestrian eating tour of Flushing so far, you say? Fine...
Next I hit Chengdu Tianfu in search the elusive Ma. Let me say right off the bat that I don't really like instructing restauramt owners as to my individual tastes. I know many people say that if I want Ma, I should simply ask for it (or more of it). I don't know why, but this makes me a little uncomfortable. I want to be presented with food exactly how the chef thinks it out to be presented. Therefore, I hoped that by ordering a dish that many Westerners might turn their nose up at - and order it in Chinese to boot - they would assume that I'm serious about my Ma La. And so I ordered the Hot and Tangy Tripe (麻辣肚絲, málà dǔsī). Believe me, it was delicious. The meat was cooked perfectly, as was the seasoning. ...Except for the Ma. As I said before, I'm not an expert in Sichuanese cuisine by any stretch, but shouldn't a dish with "Ma la" in the name contain both Ma and La??? What happened?
At any rate, I headed over to Spicy and Tasty to give it another try. Kathryn was kind enough to link an interesting article by Kenji Alt (above), in which he specifically identified their Dry Fried Beef (干煸牛肉絲, gānbiān niúròusī) as one that brings the Ma. So guess what I ordered. That's right. And guess what it tasted like. That's right. It was incredibly delicious, except it was lacking a certain little something...
I refuse to believe that they are dumbing it all down for me. The dishes were still spicy-hot (though they could've been hotter, I suppose). If they were dumbing it down for me, wouldn't both the Ma AND La be missing?
Now, I really should go eat some vegetables or something. WAY too much meat today...
By the way, Kathryn, I picked up that Fuschia Dunlop book you suggested. It's wonderful. I actually read her memoir a few years ago, but didn't make the connection until I read the blurbs in the new book. I thought her name sounded familiar! ;-) Anyway, thanks again.
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re: JFores
Spicy and Tasty is famous for their snacks/appetizers. In addition to that, they have a large, diverse menu which beats Manhattan offerings in quality, but so does Sichuan Gourmet (yes, they have an outpost in Flushing).
From both my personal experience and other people's feedback, the best Chuan places are 小辣椒 and 成都天府 , in that order, with The Hunan Kitchen Of The Grand Sichuan (or the other way around :-)) down Main St being on the upgrade alert watch.
IIRC, 麻辣肚絲 is seriously good at 成都天府 and you made a great choice. Just ask for extra ground 花椒 on the top if you have to, as JFores suggested.
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re: diprey11
bigjeff
Dec 7, 2010 04:06 PM
oh yeah, what about Hunan Kitchen?
http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/612697
read the whole thread for the long drama.
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re: bht2109
"I know many people say that if I want Ma, I should simply ask for it (or more of it). I don't know why, but this makes me a little uncomfortable. I want to be presented with food exactly how the chef thinks it out to be presented."
That's a nice sentiment, but I must say that in practice, it's not exactly how it works. Many great Chinese meals start off with a consultation! Anyway, I am never a fan of treating the waiter like an intelligent vacuum cleaner. I try to engage in conversation and root out the best dishes. It usually takes some digging.
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re: Steve
KWagle
Dec 16, 2010 06:17 AM
Indeed. At the so-called "New Shanghai" in Boston, my DC noted that the table of Chinese diners behind us also asked for 加麻 three times, no less. And another Chowhound has reported that Sichuan restaurants have tried to steer them away from spicy dishes when they were discovered to be Cantonese. So don't take it *too* personally, and *do* take a shaker of toasted and ground 花椒 with you--shop around for a brand that has the flavor profile you like. (I find Penzey's much less numbing and much more citrusy than I like, for example.)
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re: ChiefHDB
KWagle
Dec 16, 2010 03:45 PM
I haven't tracked down a brand I like. My current supply comes from a local restaurant. The proprietor of Lao Sichuan recommended huajiao from a particular region, and wrote down what I should look for, but I haven't found the stuff he recommended. I'm also wondering if the toasting process gets rid of the annoying menthol aspect, since it seems to annoy me most in broth.
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re: ChiefHDB
JMF
Dec 17, 2010 04:39 PM
The szechuan peppercorns that Penzey's has right now are the best I've ever had. very floral and super tingly. I got some yesterday from the location in Grand Central and just made a syrup for cocktails. the aroma of the hot tea I made perfumed the whole house. And the riff on a rye old fashioned with it is amazing, but my lips and tongue won't stop buzzing.
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re: JMF
I haven't had to buy any peppercorns for a while because someone brought me a bag of them from Sichuan as a gift last year. As I am running out of stock I am also searching for a local source. As far as I can remember I haven't seen a local supply that can compare to the ones from Chinese in terms of fragrant and intensity. I'll check the Penzey brand since you guys are all suggesting it!
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re: JMF
wow using peppercorns to stay alert sounds like an awesome idea....i just like to use handful of them whenever I cook my Szechuan comfort dishes. Speaking of that I just made some spicy hot pot with lots of peppercorns and a dozen spices...can't get enough of sichuan hot pot :)
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re: bht2109
"Let me say right off the bat that I don't really like instructing restauramt owners as to my individual tastes. I know many people say that if I want Ma, I should simply ask for it (or more of it). I don't know why, but this makes me a little uncomfortable. I want to be presented with food exactly how the chef thinks it out to be presented."
We're talking about Chinese restaurants in the U.S. where many customers don't want their heads blown off with heat. If a restaurant wants to stay in business it can't "ma" its customers away. If you're in search of ma, you must be prepared to make the minor compromise of asking for it. In this case it's ask and ye shall find.
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re: bht2109
If you are really craving ma, in my mind fuqi feipian is the dish that cannot exist without it. Plus, given the ingredients (tongue/lung/tripe) and the fact that it is served cold, improper use of ma makes the dish meaningless / tasteless. I found it quite good at the Ollies on 42nd Street, though I also like the versions at S+T, Duoyi, etc. I agree with Jen and Andrew that you will get a better bang for your buck with a cold ma dish.
Then, if you find that significantly ma enough for you, order the mapa dou fu (there's no rule that says you have to order everything at the same time at a sichuan restaurant), but I find that a much harder dish to master.
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re: bht2109
have you been back to flushing lately? A mall called New World Mall opened late last year and it features a food court that consists a few Sichuan stalls!
If you like spicy stuff definitely check out the big mala tang stall I guarantee you it's got enough heat (ask for extra spicy!). I also like the stir fried meat and veggies of your choice stall right next to it. You'll find out the deal once you get there.
Btw I grew up in Sichuan so I understand what you mean by "Where's the ma 麻" lol-----
New World Mall
40-21 Main St, Queens, NY 11354
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I lived in Shanghai for a few months and ate a lot of Sichuan cai. I was not impressed by Little Pepper's hot pot. It was very under whelming.
Given that, I think the rest of the people here have it covered. The Ma Po Dou Fu at Chengdu Tianfu is very satisfying.
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Little Pepper
133-43 Roosevelt Ave, Queens, NY 11354 -
Jut trying to understand what kind of a lamb dish that was at The Little Pepper. I suspect that might have been the "Paper Lamb": it's definitely there on the wall and the chef himself usually recommends it, and it does contain Sichuan peppercorns.
Some dishes at ChengDu TianFu are hotter (辣) but not necessarily spicier; all in all both feel quite authentic. Also, the Sichuan chilly (天靚) peppers are not really that hot: they just look dangerous.
If you head to CDTF don't miss the hotpot there (pun not intended).
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Little Pepper
133-43 Roosevelt Ave, Queens, NY 11354›3 Replies-
re: diprey11
Well done, people! Thank you so much for all of your suggestions.
Chandavkl, thanks for the map. Very handy!
Pookipichu, I really liked S&P, as well as Little Pepper, so I'm going to follow your advice and simply ask them to up the ma (or request that they recommend dishes) next time.
Man, I haven't had hotpot since I was in China (this was for the 07-08 school year, teaching English). Thanks for the tips, chompchomp. Do they do hotpot with both types of broth at the same time? And are the dipping items featured in a buffet, or from the menu? I ate so much hotpot while I was there, so I saw all kinds of orientations, but I definitely like the buffet-style approach.
diprey11, I honestly don't know what it was. The owner pointed at the menu, I saw the character for lamb 羊, and I was too tired, full, and frustrated at that point to try and translate the rest of the dish (plus my Chinese isn't stellar to begin with. Still learning...). I could sense a TINY bit of ma there, but nothing even close to a lasting sensation.
Probably going to head over to Chengdu Heaven later this afternoon (Sat, Nov 13). Anyone wanna join me?
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re: bht2109
chompchomp
Nov 13, 2010 06:23 AM
At Udu, you have your choice of several different kinds of broth, and just like in Sichuan, you can get 2 types for one burner. The sichuan peppercorn broth is deffffinitely ma la. For the meats, vegetables, tofu etc, that you put in the broth, you check off what you like on a paper menu. For the dipping sauces (and rice) there is a buffet, and you can make what you like.
Udu is clean and nice, and the service does not speak a lot of English. It is quite reasonable, and I seem to remember that they have a deal whereby if you go with a group, you can get all-you-can-eat hotpot and all-you-can-drink-beer for $25/person. Steal!
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Udu Cafe
37-04 Prince St, Queens, NY 11354 -
re: bht2109
They do have a two-sided hotpot at 小辣椒 , but I am not sure about 成都天府 : never ordered it there, altough I enjoy their Sichuan spicy hotpot and I think it is the best in the area. I don't know if all ingredients are listed, I just order from the memory.
If you want to order in English at 小辣椒, I'd suggest you ask the waiter (not the hostess: her English is not very good), usually a teenage guy, to assist you. You may ask him for the paper lamb from the wall ($11.95 iirc), and tell him you want it with extra 花椒, just to be doubly sure. I love Chuan food, and they have never disappointed. Good luck!
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chompchomp
Nov 12, 2010 12:15 PM
Both Udu Hotpot in Flushing and Grand Sichuan House in Bay Ridge have dishes with which the ma la cup floweth over.
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Grand Sichuan House
8701 5th Ave, Brooklyn, NY 11209Udu Cafe
37-04 Prince St, Queens, NY 11354 -
There is ma la huo guo at I-baidu. At Spicy Tasty simply request they increase the ma la. The dishes I have tried at Little Red Pepper have more capsaicin than ma la and I can sympathize because I've requested heavy ma la at LRP and been disappointed by the lack of floral szechuan peppercorn. Tung Shing House has a chef that makes excellent use of ma la, some dishes have fresh szechuan pepper (very fragrant).
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Tung Shing House
97-45 Queens Blvd, Queens, NY 11374›2 Replies-
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re: Pookipichu
KWagle
Dec 16, 2010 06:08 AM
Where and when did this idea that "ma la" refers to the flavor of 花椒 (the so-called Sichuan peppercorn) begin to arise? I first encountered it in Todd Kliman's article about Peter Chang, but it seems to be more commonplace than that.
If you look up the words in question, you'll discover that 辣 (la) is the flavor produced most commonly by capsaicin--what Americans call hot--and in fact hot peppers are often referred to as 辣椒 (la jiao.) 花椒 does not produce that sensation--it's never 'la' any more than sugar is sour.
If you want the numbing produced by huajiao, namely 麻, you may get further if you ask for your food 加 麻 (jia ma for extra ma) rather than 麻辣 which is often generically interpreted as "spicy".
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Twice cooked pork doesn't have Sichuan peppercorns which cause the numbing-tingly sensation. I'm confused as to why you ordered it if that's what you wanted.
Here's a review of Spicy & Tasty that indicates which dishes use the Sichuan peppercorns (a lot of them don't):
http://newyork.seriouseats.com/2010/11/spicy-tasty-sichuan-food-flushing-queens-ny-nyc-review.htmlHave you tried Chengdu Heaven?
http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/451804
http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/523442-----
Spicy & Tasty
39-07 Prince St, Queens, NY 11354›5 Replies-
re: kathryn
Well, I'm not familiar enough with the inner machinations of creating Sichuan cuisine to know which exact dishes contain the peppercorns and which do not. It just seemed that, in the past, whenever I ordered something Sichuanese, there they were. I've even tried cooking with huajiao peppers at home, but after many experiments (is ma fat soluble or water soluble?), I couldn't manage to extract the sensation from the peppercorns.
Thanks so much for the info. I meant to stop by Chengdu Heaven tonight, but after my little culinary tour (I also popped into Nanxiang Xiaolongbao to see if the xiaolongbao were like the ones in Shanghai - they were delicious!), my stomach convinced me otherwise. Definitely next time.
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re: bht2109
If you're curious about recreating the dishes you loved, pick up a copy of Fuschia Dunlop's Land of Plenty! She does a great job describing things like "The 23 Flavors of Sichuan" and "The 56 Cooking Methods of Sichuan," which explain the cuisine. BTW, in traditional Sichuan cooking, many dishes begin with heating oil, then dumping a bunch of peppercorns in to flavor the oil, then discarding them.
Please report back if you get to Chengdu Heaven!
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re: kathryn
Wow, I would LOVE to be able to cook my own Sichuanese at home. Thanks so much for the book tip!
I'll check back in on this thread once I head over to Chengdu Tianfu. I've heard that their lamb is to die for, and given that lamb is my absolute favorite red meat, my journey there will surely be soon.
谢谢!
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