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One Bay Leaf Question

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smkit Sep 27, 2010 05:59 AM

These recipes that call for one bay leaf in a large soup or stew always seem a bit strange to me. I've put two or even three in before and haven't noticed an overpowering flavor. Do other people out there notice a difference if you double the bay leaf amount?

And this weekend I cooked a recipe that said (1 Turkish bay leaf or 1/2 California bay leaf). Seriously? If they want to refine it by that much shouldn't they say large leaf or small leaf too. Also, if one uses grocery store leaves, who knows how fresh and potent they are. I usually assume they are less fresh and add more leaves.

And now my grocery store carries fresh bay leaves. How are these used (more? less? the same amount?).

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  1. Eric in NJ RE: smkit Sep 27, 2010 06:19 AM

    To be honest, I for one can't taste Bay leaf in food. I have bought good quality leaves even fresh and I just don't get it. My wife swears she can taste it if it's added but I don't seem to pick up a difference.

    7 Replies
    1. re: Eric in NJ
      sunshine842 RE: Eric in NJ Sep 27, 2010 06:29 AM

      Bay leaf is a weird one...I can't taste its presence, but I know when it's missing. I have a pretty sensitive palate, but can never definitively say "oh yes, that's bay leaf"....by default, I usually toss at least one into anything that's going to be slow cooked.

      I've routinely used 2-3 when it only calls for one, and nobody's died (yet)....and it's a gimme to use 2 small ones if it calls for one big one, etc.

      I use fresh bay leaves, only because they're cheaper and easier to find (I can buy fresh at the open air markets here, but dried takes a trip to the store....) -- but I can't honestly say I could tell you the difference.

      1. re: sunshine842
        darklyglimmer RE: sunshine842 Sep 27, 2010 11:55 AM

        >Bay leaf is a weird one...I can't taste its presence, but I know when it's missing.

        I mostly agree, although I did make one extremely unfortunate jambalaya recipe that called for three bay leaves and I thought it was weird-tasting and almost inedible. Process of elimination determined it was the bay - I use dried, but these were enormous - and since then I've gone easy on it.

        1. re: darklyglimmer
          bushwickgirl RE: darklyglimmer Sep 29, 2010 02:44 AM

          Yes, too much bay leaf is very noticable. I use one or two, or more, depending on quantity of recipe and freshness and size of (dried) leaf. Bay adds a certain something that tends not be be obvious unless overdone, but I miss it's essense if it's not there.

          Unfortunately, I live in the part of the US that doesn't have fresh bay leaves available often; I find the fresh California leaves to be very potent and use them judiciously when I can get them.

          1. re: bushwickgirl
            s
            smkit RE: bushwickgirl Sep 29, 2010 05:19 AM

            I must admit that right before I wrote the OP I had used more bay leaf in a recipe and thought I detected something different that I thought might be bay leaf (but I wasn't sure). That was right out of the hot cooking pot. When the soup cooled down and after a couple days as leftovers I couldn't detect it again. It seemed as if it was most noticeable when it was fresh in the hot liquid but it mellowed as the flavors mixed.

      2. re: Eric in NJ
        AnchovyBourdain RE: Eric in NJ Sep 27, 2010 07:41 AM

        Same here, not even sure what it's supposed to taste like..
        I add it like you would add magic pixie dust to a dish, just for fear of bad luck if i dare not do it!

        1. re: AnchovyBourdain
          m
          moejurray RE: AnchovyBourdain Oct 8, 2010 09:06 AM

          Pixie Dust! Yes, bay leaves are pixie dust to cooking. Love this.

        2. re: Eric in NJ
          mucho gordo RE: Eric in NJ Sep 27, 2010 12:55 PM

          I'm with your wife, Eric. I. too, can taste it. The only reason I use one is to cut the acidity of tomato sauce. I drop one in for just a short while, then take it out. Works like a charm.

        3. castiron RE: smkit Sep 27, 2010 06:47 AM

          I totally agree, have always thought how specific recipes are when it comes to bay is really weird. I've put in like 5 or 6 for a gallon of soup (trying to use up old ones... I know I know, just throw them away already...). And what is the difference between Turkish and California?
          Would love to see a real answer if anyone has one.

          7 Replies
          1. re: castiron
            sunshine842 RE: castiron Sep 27, 2010 06:52 AM

            Here's what Penzeys.com says about Turkish bay:

            "Turkish Bay Leaves are the best in the world. Though not as strong as the California variety, they have a natural depth of flavor that the California Bay Leaves can't hope to match. Bay leaves grow wild on the hilly mountains of western Turkey in the area around Izmir (Smyrna). The wind there is perfect for growing bay leaves. Most of the year it comes out of the west across the Mediterranean and Aegean seas, picking up moisture and dropping it on the growing trees. At the end of the summer the wind changes direction and comes out of the south. Before it reaches the hills around Izmir it must pass over a couple of mountain ridges, making it hot and dry, perfect for quickly drying the leaves with a minimum of flavor loss. These winds at times create a high risk of forest fires, which in years past have led to a very small bay leaf harvest, but this year we seem to have a nice supply for the coming season. The flavor of Bay Leaves is perfect for adding to roast pork or chicken, pot roast, turkey, or ham, use 2-3 leaves and remove before serving. Bay Leaves are also perfect for spaghetti sauce and chicken soup, use 2 per quart. A surprising fact is that Bay Leaves improve the flavor of salt-free dishes with their rich flavor. Note: bay leaves are very light (8 ounces by weight equals one gallon by volume). "

            Note that they recommend 2-3 for most things!

            1. re: castiron
              s
              Sharuf RE: castiron Sep 28, 2010 05:01 AM

              Bay trees are common around the Bay Area. Old trees can be very large, multi-trunked and handsome. Those of us who prefer local foraging to store-bought use our own bay leaves. I found out the wrong way how much stronger they are by making a stew that smelled like after-shave lotion.

              1. re: Sharuf
                sunshine842 RE: Sharuf Sep 28, 2010 08:37 AM

                Ah, but not everyone lives in a climate that will support bay trees...and not everyone trusts the tree down the street to be free of fertilizers, pesticides, and traffic residues (which frequently contain heavy metals).

              2. re: castiron
                eight_inch_pestle RE: castiron Sep 28, 2010 02:23 PM

                They come from completely different and unrelated trees. Turkish bay leaves, known as bay laurel, come from Laurus Nobilis. California bay comes from the aptly named Umbellularia californica. As sunshine's quote indicates, California bay is much stronger than bay laurel, and has what some consider a menthol-like note.

                Despite the name, Turkish bay grows well anywhere that has a mild winter, and if pruned down regularly can be kept in a large pot in colder climates---assuming you have a sunny window for its winter home. It does, however, take a few years to attain a harvestable size.

                1. re: eight_inch_pestle
                  k
                  Karen_Schaffer RE: eight_inch_pestle Oct 3, 2010 10:10 PM

                  Right, bay laurel is different from California bay. However, plenty of bay laurels grow in California. So it's quite possible to get bay leaves from California that are true bay leaves, not "California Bay" leaves, which are, btw, longer and narrower than bay laurel:

                  http://www.csuchico.edu/biol/Herb/cur...

                  1. re: Karen_Schaffer
                    eight_inch_pestle RE: Karen_Schaffer Oct 3, 2010 10:48 PM

                    Certainly didn't mean to imply otherwise!

                    It's also worth noting that the fresh bay leaves that come in those little plastic containers are almost always California bay, even though they're never labeled one way or the other. Definitely helps to know the difference in appearance.

                    1. re: eight_inch_pestle
                      k
                      Karen_Schaffer RE: eight_inch_pestle Oct 4, 2010 09:03 AM

                      Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that you didn't know the difference! I just wanted to add the clarification for others.

                      I didn't realize that they package California Bay leaves. Surely they must sell fresh Bay Laurel too, don't they? Fresh Bay Laurel have such a lovely, complex scent, different from the dry leaves, and so much nicer than the California Bay which is almost medicinal. Bay laurels grow like weeds once they get established, so it would be an easy business. I need to seriously trim mine back pretty soon, because it's getting out of hand.

              3. hotoynoodle RE: smkit Sep 27, 2010 07:22 AM

                a good tip is to saute the leaves in your oil before adding anything else. even before the onion. this will allow the oils and esters in the leaves to be released.

                and yes, i always use a few.

                8 Replies
                1. re: hotoynoodle
                  s
                  smkit RE: hotoynoodle Sep 27, 2010 10:50 AM

                  That's interesting. I will try it out the next time.

                  And maybe I will take a bunch of leaves and soak them in oil and try to compare the bay leaf oil versus the non-infused oil just to see if I can figure out the flavor nuances a bit more.

                  1. re: smkit
                    Eric in NJ RE: smkit Sep 27, 2010 12:05 PM

                    Sounds like something I will try too. Thanks

                    1. re: smkit
                      hotoynoodle RE: smkit Sep 27, 2010 12:17 PM

                      it's the hot oil, not just the oil's presence, that releases the oils. this is true of all dried spices and a good technique to keep in mind. it's traditional in indian cooking to "fry" the spices.

                      1. re: hotoynoodle
                        Eric in NJ RE: hotoynoodle Sep 28, 2010 04:33 AM

                        I understand the heating of the spices and do that. But I don't think I've ever made a recipe that tells you to add the bay leaf then, it usualy tells you to put it in once the liquid is added.

                        1. re: Eric in NJ
                          darklyglimmer RE: Eric in NJ Sep 28, 2010 10:25 AM

                          I just made a Florentine tomato soup from 12 Months of Monastary Soups where the bay leaf was sauteed with the other aromatics. The end product was tasty, but as I said upthread, I can't taste bay unless it's Too Much Bay.

                          1. re: Eric in NJ
                            hotoynoodle RE: Eric in NJ Oct 2, 2010 06:47 AM

                            it's a tip i got from jasper white when he was guest cheffing at the restaurant where i worked. i've done it ever since and it makes a huge difference.

                            1. re: Eric in NJ
                              Becca Porter RE: Eric in NJ Oct 3, 2010 05:05 PM

                              Most of Cooks Illustrated's recipes saute it with the aromatics...

                        2. re: hotoynoodle
                          scubadoo97 RE: hotoynoodle Oct 8, 2010 12:00 PM

                          Yes, good tip. I fry my bay leaves in a a little oil briefly before adding anything else. I find it a subtle background kind of flavor. If I'm making Cuban black beans and it's not there I miss it. Same of some tomato based sauces and chili. I usually add more than a recipe calls for

                        3. Pata_Negra RE: smkit Sep 27, 2010 07:51 AM

                          i use at least 5. in the summer i often put the leaves between the skewered meat. also, stuff loads inside a bird or fish.

                          i have a bay laurel plant so only fresh leaves are used. it's so aromatic and yet not overpowering.

                          1 Reply
                          1. re: Pata_Negra
                            j
                            jns7 RE: Pata_Negra Sep 27, 2010 08:34 AM

                            My Jewish grandmother used bay leaf in almost all her cooking - when she made meatballs, when she made borscht, when she made pot roasted chicken - and used virtually no other herbs or spices (garlic, onion, carrots, celery tomatos and lemon juice were her other standards), so the taste of bay leaf is very distinct for me and was essential to the overall flavor of a dish, even if only 1 leaf was used. Not sure I can describe the taste - I wouldn't say it tasted "like" wine - but it had the same impact on a dish that wine would - a slight darkening, sweetening, mellowing flavor - something that combined the other flavors -- and made them more than the sum of their parts. Also "perfumed" whatever dish it was in. I've sometimes added two leaves when a recipe calls for one - but I would never leave it out. Love it.

                          2. Perilagu Khan RE: smkit Sep 27, 2010 08:56 AM

                            I love bay leaf and consider it almost essential for any chicken broth/stock and soup, particularly chicken and dumplings. And I may have to try the sauteeing in oil tip.

                            1. lynnlato RE: smkit Sep 27, 2010 09:41 AM

                              I had the most amazing battered and fried bay leaves with my crema catalana at Casa Mono in NYC. You held it by the stem and put the leaf into your mouth and pulled it out, scraping the fried batter off the leaf with your teeth. So you didn't eat the leaf, just the bay leaf-infused coating. So good.

                              5 Replies
                              1. re: lynnlato
                                Perilagu Khan RE: lynnlato Sep 27, 2010 09:55 AM

                                I've had that! But after only a couple of scrapings I'm so stuffed I can barely move.

                                1. re: lynnlato
                                  s
                                  smkit RE: lynnlato Sep 27, 2010 10:55 AM

                                  That sounds really good. A quick search turned up this possible recipe for Casa Mono's bay leaf dish but with chocolate instead.

                                  http://www.sherrycouncil.org/attachme...

                                  1. re: smkit
                                    lynnlato RE: smkit Sep 28, 2010 04:18 AM

                                    Ok, yum! Every one of those recipes looked amazingly delicious. Funny, the truffled potatoes with duck egg is one of the other dishes I had had at Casa Mono when I had the bay leaves.

                                    Damn, now I'm craving all of it. Thanks smkit! :-P

                                    1. re: lynnlato
                                      s
                                      smkit RE: lynnlato Sep 28, 2010 06:29 AM

                                      I thought that five onion mixture looked great too, but i LOVE onions.

                                      1. re: smkit
                                        lynnlato RE: smkit Sep 28, 2010 10:46 AM

                                        OMG! I just read that one again. Not only do I, too, love onions but I adore foie gras too. Man, you're killing me here!

                                2. greygarious RE: smkit Sep 27, 2010 12:31 PM

                                  Mostly because I grew up that way, dried bay leaves and cloves are essential to goulash and pot roast. Bay leaf for stewed lentils, too.

                                  1. iL Divo RE: smkit Sep 28, 2010 10:30 AM

                                    I don't know what bay leaves even do for food yet so many recipes call for them so no clue here.
                                    also, I got a batch from a person who lives in Greece and sent me a big bagfull off their tree. I toss in two in a batch of white rice, butter/olive oil, chix stock, 1/2 onion, one chili pepper not cut up, one stalk celery, salt and pepper. take out the bay, the whole chili, the onion and celery disgard and serve, so good but still no idea why the bay

                                    1. eight_inch_pestle RE: smkit Sep 28, 2010 02:14 PM

                                      Adore bay leaves. But contrary to most feedback here, I can totally tell the difference if I double the amount, and actually think you have to be careful to prevent them from overpowering a dish unless you're trying to showcase bay.

                                      If you feel like you can't taste them, try tearing one in half and adding it to the melting butter for slow-cooked scrambled eggs. So good, and with nothing else but butter and salt and egg in the pan you can't miss the bay. I've also found bay leaves pair incredibly well with roasted salmon, especially with a little butter and freshly ground white pepper. Yum.

                                      Edit: talking about fresh bay only.

                                      2 Replies
                                      1. re: eight_inch_pestle
                                        lynnlato RE: eight_inch_pestle Sep 28, 2010 06:04 PM

                                        Yum, I'm going to have to try your scrambled egg suggestion, that sounds so interesting. I recall reading a recipe for a cocktail with a bay leaf and vodka, I think.

                                        1. re: lynnlato
                                          eight_inch_pestle RE: lynnlato Sep 28, 2010 08:40 PM

                                          Do let me know if you like it!

                                          FYI, I sometimes fish out the bay leaf after 10 or 15 minutes if it seems like the herb is getting intense. Also? If you can get them, a few fresh curry leaves are really delicious in scrambled eggs, too (instead of, not _with_ the bay leaf, of course).

                                      2. w
                                        Whats_For_Dinner RE: smkit Oct 3, 2010 04:42 PM

                                        It definitely adds something -- sometimes to the point where I'll actually be eating something and be able to say "Needs more bay leaf!" the same way I'd say "Needs more salt."

                                        I'm very careful with it now, though. I made a court bouillon once that ended up being WAY too bay-y, and I've never forgotten it. Ick, medicinal poached shrimp. Too much bay is much, much worse than none at all.

                                        1. eclecticsynergy RE: smkit Oct 3, 2010 05:28 PM

                                          Putting a bay leaf in your oil at the beginning of a dish is often done in Portuguese traditional cuisine, and perhaps others.

                                          For those who'd like a more direct and intimate encounter, I recommend boiling one leaf in a cup of water, not to cook with but simply to experience its pure flavor and aroma without other additions. This works well for just about any herb with which you might want to become more familiar.

                                          I will often put a bay leaf (one) in the milk for my bechamel sauce; it adds a nice herbal note, fairly subtle since the sauce doesn't cook for long with the leaf in.

                                          Old-time barbers did indeed use bay-infused rum as an aftershave, back when you could get a shave and a haircut for two bits.

                                          8 Replies
                                          1. re: eclecticsynergy
                                            Perilagu Khan RE: eclecticsynergy Oct 3, 2010 07:28 PM

                                            You can still get Bay Rum aftershave from certain purveyors of olde tymey products. I've been tempted to snag a bottle.

                                            1. re: Perilagu Khan
                                              StriperGuy RE: Perilagu Khan Oct 4, 2010 12:14 AM

                                              Bay Rum is great aftershave/cologne. Up there with Pino Silvestre (Italian pine scented cologne) also a classic, masculine old school cologne.

                                              1. re: Perilagu Khan
                                                AnchovyBourdain RE: Perilagu Khan Oct 5, 2010 07:26 AM

                                                My boyfriend uses Bay Rum!! Ordered it online along with his safety razor. It's a sweet sweet manly scent... rawwr!

                                                1. re: AnchovyBourdain
                                                  eight_inch_pestle RE: AnchovyBourdain Oct 8, 2010 03:24 AM

                                                  Link, please. (Said pestle's girlfriend.)

                                                  1. re: eight_inch_pestle
                                                    Perilagu Khan RE: eight_inch_pestle Oct 8, 2010 06:57 AM

                                                    eight_inch_mortar?

                                                    1. re: eight_inch_pestle
                                                      AnchovyBourdain RE: eight_inch_pestle Oct 8, 2010 07:37 AM

                                                      That brand, ordered from that same store, I think it should be fairly easy to find in a U.S. store:
                                                      http://www.fendrihan.com/clubman-bayr...

                                                  2. re: Perilagu Khan
                                                    n
                                                    Nickyboy RE: Perilagu Khan Oct 8, 2010 03:23 AM

                                                    Brooks Brothers has it.

                                                  3. re: eclecticsynergy
                                                    hotoynoodle RE: eclecticsynergy Oct 4, 2010 05:55 AM

                                                    the rare times i use a bechamel, i include a bay leaf or two and it does make a difference.

                                                  4. n
                                                    Nickyboy RE: smkit Oct 8, 2010 03:22 AM

                                                    I've got three bay trees that I keep in big terracotta pots here in New England. I love bay leaf fresh as well as dried.
                                                    How many of you have had a Tuscan grilled steak? That interesting flavor was from the coals, which traditionally uses dried bay tree wood. Since harvesting wood from my little trees would mean killing them (aag!) I have come up with a servicable substitution: Ask your butcher to cut you a steak about 1.5" thick. Season it liberally with sea salt and black pepper. Then dust it well on both sides with a good amount of bay leaf powder (if you don't have a bag of powder, grind up the dried leaves in a coffee grinder). Grill it over very hot coals. The bay powder will burn off and give a wonderful flavor to the meat and the juices that accumulate in the plate while it rests after grilling.

                                                    4 Replies
                                                    1. re: Nickyboy
                                                      d
                                                      dr. pepper RE: Nickyboy Oct 8, 2010 05:07 AM

                                                      A friend's mom (a French war bride) smuggled a sprig of the European variety back in her cleavage, rooted it, and has several generations of offspring. We grow them in containers in N England as well. We lost a big one a few years ago (missed a watering?) but I've been used the dried leaves since. Fresh or dried, it's wonderful. with a very aromatic and complex scent and flavor. Try a few crumpled leaves in oven roasted/browned potatoes. Will try the steak trick, that sounds yummy.

                                                      1. re: dr. pepper
                                                        Perilagu Khan RE: dr. pepper Oct 8, 2010 06:59 AM

                                                        "A friend's mom (a French war bride) smuggled a sprig of the European variety back in her cleavage"

                                                        Bay Watch

                                                        1. re: Perilagu Khan
                                                          Aravisea RE: Perilagu Khan Oct 8, 2010 07:01 AM

                                                          *groan*

                                                      2. re: Nickyboy
                                                        Perilagu Khan RE: Nickyboy Oct 8, 2010 06:58 AM

                                                        That sounds terrific.

                                                      3. Aravisea RE: smkit Oct 8, 2010 06:48 AM

                                                        I love bay leaf! I usually use 2-3 instead of one and miss it if it's not there.

                                                        1. b
                                                          bobintoday RE: smkit Oct 8, 2010 07:42 AM

                                                          nothing to do with cooking bat, but if you want to see the power of the leaf, put 2 in your flower container and two in your sugar container - you will never have bugs in there. Also we are infested with Japanese beatles every Fall - I place 6 to 10 bay leaves one the inside ledge of my bay window, up close where the window and ledge meet and, withn a week or so, have many many of those dead suckers - please dont eat bay leaves!!!!

                                                          1 Reply
                                                          1. re: bobintoday
                                                            sunshine842 RE: bobintoday Oct 9, 2010 01:18 AM

                                                            Never put it in my sugar container, but my flour container in Florida *always* had bay leaves....and I never had bugs. (Oddly, a couple of wrappers from Wrigley's Spearmint gum works, too, but not as long-lived)

                                                          2. m
                                                            MessyVirgo RE: smkit Oct 8, 2010 11:36 AM

                                                            I've lived in Oklahoma for over 40 years and have found fresh bay leaves in the market just once in all that time. When skewering them for spiedinis, we soak the dry leaves in hot, boiling water for about an hour to make them more pliable and flavorful.

                                                            Oklahoma City is remote boonies as far as grocery stores and farmers' markets are concerned. It's hard to find certain reasonably-priced vegetables and herbs (I have a brown thumb), and certain varieties and cuts of meat. Of course, fresh fish is very expensive.

                                                            1 Reply
                                                            1. re: MessyVirgo
                                                              d
                                                              DougWeller RE: MessyVirgo Oct 9, 2010 12:31 PM

                                                              I have some delicious seville orange and bay leaf marmalade, I'd love to know how many bay leaves to use. I read about blueberry and bay leaf jelly - no recipe, just the comment that it took a lot of bay leaves. Doug

                                                            2. r
                                                              rosciolit RE: smkit Oct 11, 2010 05:34 AM

                                                              Bay leaves are excellent! Most posters have talked about savoury uses, but here is my own recipe modification for a bay leave and spice infused italian custard:

                                                              Boil a cup of milk with a couple of bruised bayleaves, a few cloves, some fresh orange rind and some vanilla. Take off the heat and allow to cool while in another container beating two egg yolks with 4 tbsp sugar until pale. Add one tbsp corn starch and beat until incorporated. strain the milk into the egg mixture while beating. Cook over a low heat mixing all the while until the mixture thickens. Use as you would a custard, inside italian doughnuts or in zuppa inglese....

                                                              1 Reply
                                                              1. re: rosciolit
                                                                n
                                                                Nickyboy RE: rosciolit Oct 16, 2010 07:19 AM

                                                                OK, I'm drooling over that custard recipe. Gonna have to make it soon!

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