Yet another question about bao

[tatamagouche]

How come sometimes the dough is silky, more like dumpling dough, sometimes really fluffy and styrofoamy? Is it the difference between types of yeast/flour or is it a regional difference or something else I'm not even considering?

Thanks!

[K K]

Here's one more example of a regional variation of a bao where you will not find in the USA (and has nothing to do with dim sum)...

Hakka Taiwanese style tsai bao (only in Taiwan) 客家菜包 .

http://www.youtube.com/user/linachun#...

The exterior is actually a sticky rice mochi like skin that has a similar but different texture to the ha gow shrimp dumpling skins. There are variations on the skin where you can add different ingredients to give it a multi colored exterior (e.g. using taro to get purple exterior). The classic interior is shredded dry fried daikon/turnips with dried shrimp, mushrooms, and finely minced stewed pork. There is usually a very generous application of white pepper applied to give the whole thing a kick.

@ 2:11 mark or so, they introduce the "grass" variant (yes made with a type of grass) that you also can find in certain styles of Japanese wagashi.

I have to say this is an acquired taste, not everyone will like it, but the texture is very interesting (and very fragrant interior) to say the least.

[K K]

And to throw yet another curveball....

A very old school dim sum that was arguably more popular than cha siu bao in its heyday is the chicken big bun 雞球大包, sometimes just called dai bao (da bao) 大包, and this one probably resembles the Northern Chinese style baozi a little bit more (basically chicken and veg). One order was basically one humongous piece, fitting inside a typical ha gow/siu mai type of steamer. Cheap/quick/fast blue collar worker stomach stuffer kind of thing. Of course this is not as popular anymore as people prefer to eat many small bites than one big one.

There's a variant called 三星大包 (3 stars), which are salted egg, pork, and mushrooms.

Likely not a common dim sum item in the USA, or if so, rarely seen and perhaps relegated to old Chinatown type places (or the old style Chinese bakeries).

Those who cater to and like this old style, but preferring smaller portions, do have choices these days, in the former of minatures called gai bao zai 雞包仔, which are basically the same size as cha siu bao, 3 to an order.

[buttertart]

Something along these lines we had in Beijing was called a Beijing da bao - yeast-raised bao stuffed with ground beef (or lamb) with a lot of dill and garlic in it. THAT was good. They were only 10 kuai or so apeice (in a nice restaurant) so I tried ordering more than one (thinking thye were small) and was dissuaded by the waitress. Found out why when it came - about 6" dia by 4" high!

[ipsedixit]

This is just like Taiwanese gua bao (刮包), except the Taiwanese stuff usually comes stuffed with braised pork or beef slices and cilantro in a sliced open steamed bun. More like a hamburger than a bun.

[buttertart]

Nope, nothing like a gua bao (not open/split), like a huge cha shao bao (enclosed, only slight split at the top).

[K K]

And what confuses me a little is one of my absolute favorite street food items in Taipei, the Fuzhou style pork pepper bun 胡椒餅, which they translate as a "cake"

http://beefnoguy.blogspot.com/2010/01...

Theoretically the way they make/mold it, doesn't seem any different to that of a bao from the youtube video in the link. The only difference is that they don't pleat it to close like some baozi or Shanghai style shen jian bao, but just enclose the whole thing altogether so it is uniform. Baked Cantonese BBQ pork buns don't have pleats (inward or outward), the whole thing is enclosed.

[buttertart]

The BJ da bao (appropriately named) is just steamed, the bottom shows signs of it having been pinched together but the top just splits a very little on its own. You trying to make me homesick for my dear TPE with that link? We lived right near Shihlin night market (before it was in the least gentrified).

[Chemicalkinetics]

You throw that big dia bao at people as a weapon and can cause serious damage.

[K K]

To throw more variants of the BBQ pork bun (from dim sum) in the mix that has little or nothing to do with the non Cantonese Chinese "bao" category, but yet are labeled "bao" in Cantonese Chinese:

The steamed traditional cha siu bao is very common. Many restaurants also do the oven baked version.

There's also a cha siu pineapple bun or cha siu bor lor bao, where the pineapple bun is like a variant of the Japanese "melon pan". The pineapple bun contains no pineapple, and supposedly came about around the 60s (rumored to be originally called "Russian Bun"), and originally made with eggs, flour, sugar, and lard. In Hong Kong the plain pineapple bun is more of a bakery or cafe bakery item, either a quick breakfast, or an anytime of day snack consumed with a slice of butter inside, paired with coffee or milk tea. Dim sum restaurants basically took this pedestrian idea and inserted bbq pork inside to re-create something fun, and they've done this with the HK style "mexican buns" (of course they don't have Mexican bao in Mexico). I think the idea they are trying to achieve is a multi-flakey smooth layer with a toasty roasty interior.

Here's an example/pic (first image)

http://www.openrice.com/restaurant/co...

It can be known by other names like "snow flower" cha siu bao, where once the flakey layer crumples, it "falls apart like snowflakes". The versions I've seen are mostly sweet dessert type buns.

[chowser]

I thought bo lo bao was called that because the top resembled a pineapple with the sweet topping. I've never seen char sui in that, only in the plain bao, char sui bao. I've usually seen the bo lo bao with custard but have seen a wide variety of fillings, including none. Right now, my children love the hot dog bao, though not technically a bao, just dough wrapped.

Using the same steamed dough is the longevity peach. Is it shou tau? Filled or not.

[ipsedixit]

Yum, I love shou tau (even with all the red/green food coloring to make it resemble "peach"). Has to filled with sweet red bean paste, however; otherwise, it might as well be made of porcelain.

[Chemicalkinetics]

I thought lotus seed paste (for filling) is more popular

[K K]

I haven't had shou tau bao in aeons. Yes longevity bun, typically (or used to be) served at wedding (dinner) banquets in the old days. I believe they used lotus seed paste in HK then (or at least started off). The more intricately constructed ones also include a stamp (in Chinese characters) on top, like a certificate seal.

[Chemicalkinetics]

I agree with Chowser. I think it is the pattern on the Bo Lo Bao. It is like the pineapple checker skin pattern. I have seen "Char Siu - Bo Lo Bao", but I have never tried it because the concept does not appeal to me. I like the regular (no filling) bo lo bao.

Of course, now we are talking about baked bao which is more of bread and less of steam bao.

[ipsedixit]

By the way, has anyone tried Melonpan? To me, these are exactly like Mexican sweet breads, but with a Japanese accent.

And, they are really good, better than Bo Lo Bao in my opinion.

[Chemicalkinetics]

I have not mastered the fluffy bao technique as well. Most northern Chinese people I know make baos with the texture of mahn tou. They are denser and chewier. On the other hand, many Cantonese bao are fluffier and lighter. have made both. Personally, I think it is tougher to get that right Cantonese cha siu bao texture. Although my friend said I make nice bao, they are just being nice.

Anyhow, enough about me. Cake flour makes fluffy and ligher bao, while bread or all-purpose flour makes for chewy and denser bao. In addition, if you add a bit baking powder in mix of yeast, then the bao is a bit fluffy as well (but also less chewy). The amount of sugar and water to the dough also changes the texture as well. Also don't forget to add a touch of vinegar to the dough after the dough has raise and before steaming. Finally, the amount of kneading also make for the difference.

Think of bao like bread. There are varies versions of bao and there are different styles of bread.

[ipsedixit]

I don't really consider a mantou a "bao".

[Chemicalkinetics]

Technically a pure mantou is not a bao because it is not enclosing anything. Therefore it is not "bao-ing" anything. However, many bao, like meat baos and vegetable bao, have the texture of a mantou and use the similar formula in making them. I wrote "baos with the texture of mahn tou"

Meanwhile certain Cantonese bao are completely different breasts.

[ipsedixit]

Part of the textural difference you are noticing between northern baos and southern (or Cantonese) baos is due to the culinary roots of the two regions based on their climatic differences.

Northerners generally have heartier meals, usu. based around flour with things like noodles, thick green onion breads, baos, pancakes, etc., due to the colder climates in the north. Southerners, like those in Canton, don't really need the typical "stick-to-your-bones" hearty meals because of the warmer climates.

Colder climates meant that thicker, denser dough products were more suitable.

This difference may help explain the textural contrasts between northern and southern baos that you describe. That said, a good bao (northern or southern) should not be chewy or dense.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Yes, a good bao should not seek to be chewy like bubble gum or dense like noodle. Those should not be the goals.

Traditional northern bao are made with different methods and different ingredients than some southern bao. Char siu bao 叉燒包 is especially unqiue. It is made with flour with less gluten (like spring flour 低筋麵粉 + wheat starch 澄麵粉) and additional ingrediets to disrupt excessive gluten formation while promoting air pockets. All these additional steps give it a fluffier and a light and fine structure. For these reasons, when you tear a northern bao, you can feel it holds itself much stronger than a char siu bao.

They are not exactly the same in term of of fluffiness. One is fluffier and the other is chewier, in comparison.

[tatamagouche]

These are made by a Dongbei chef, if that helps. And I like your distinction Chemkin: these were neither way chewy nor dense, they're definitely fluffy, but still a little thicker than most I've had.

So does that mean we are talking regional differences?

[ipsedixit]

"So does that mean we are talking regional differences?"
___________________

Generally, yes.

[chowser]

This is the first time I've ever connected the verb "bao" to the noun "bao" which is such a duh moment.

I think the fluffier bao has more rice flour which adds to the whiter color and lightness. Less chew because of lower gluten. My husband's aunt introduced me to the premade pack and it's so quick and easy. Steaming makes a big difference, too, vs baking.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Chowser,

Agree. Some bao have rice flour mix in it, and some have wheat starch mix in it. Wheat starch basically is wheat flour without the proteins and threfore lacks gluten. Yes, those premade packs are really quick and easy to do, which is more the reasons I am trying very hard to get better with my bao procedure. I often make my bao in batches of two or more because I am always trying to compare and contrast different ingredients and I like to do comparison side by side.

The only negative thing I notice in the premixed ready to go bao mix is that it can be a bit too alkaline and has a little "pancake" taste to it. I have used the so called "Big Bao Flour". Let's see if I can find a link.

Here. May be this one I cannot be sure. The name is similar, but the package picture looks different:

http://jeroxie.com/addiction/wp-conte...

[chowser]

I agree about the flavor--it tastes little too much baking soda. But, it works in a pinch. I have no idea which one I use. It's a clear crinkly pack, white powder, red writing. It's funny that I'd never use a mix to make pancakes or other breads but this is just so easy, even if the final product isn't as good.

[runwestierun]

Have you noticed this? For me, the tougher the bao dough is, the harder it is to knead, the fluffier the bao.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Hey Runwestierun,

How do you make your bao dough tougher? Can I assume you control that based on water to dough ratio? The reason I asked is that there are a few ways to make a bao dough tougher, but they may not lead to the same results.

I agree. There is a "window" for making good baozi. For traditional baozi, I tried to make the dough elastic. Too much water, it feels dead and will be too heavy for the dough to rise and hold its shape. Too little water, then it is too dry, and the baozi may not rise much. I try to make sure the dough is not so wet that it starts to stick to my hand, but not so dry that the dough starts to form cracks as I knead it. That being said, there are ways around wet dough. I am just not experience enough to handle it correctly. I am going to try to make some wetter dough along with my standard dough next time and see if I can handle them.

Yes, a tough dough is harder to knead, but it holds its shape better (in many cases, not all cases).

You may have seen baozi that steam up fluffy in the steam baskets, but they collapse the moment they are cooled. That is the result of over-rising, which can happen to a wet dough.

P.S.: Much to learn for me.

[xIcewind]

I've never noticed this.

When my dad and I used to make bao zi and hua juan, the dough rises to about 2-3x the original size, and almost like bread making, we poke it down and kneed it, and it'd usually be quite sticky.

You have to be careful of overkneeding, as if you do it too much it collapses all the airspaces (or that's how I was told), and the dough comes out solid. You're aiming for something that can structurally hold the pork in the middle, while thin enough on the bottom to be steamed, but thick on the sides.

[Chemicalkinetics]

"You have to be careful of overkneeding, as if you do it too much it collapses all the airspaces (or that's how I was told)"

Agree, agree and agree. Some people think the more kneading is always better. This is not true in my experience. Thanks for bringing this up. I tried to explain that in a previous post, but I am afraid that does not go through as nicely I have put it. I will add that it is more so for wetter dough than drier dough.

[ipsedixit]

What do you mean by "silky, more like dumpling dough"? Dumpling dough is unrisen.

Dough for bao is risen, which is why it is "fluffy and styrofoamy" as you say.

The closest thing I can think of what you might be describing as "silky, more like dumpling dough" is xiao long bao, which despite it's English nomenclature, is sort of unique food category onto itself and probably shouldn't be lumped together with your more typical baos.

[K K]

Yeah it's all confusing.

A steamed Chinese doughy bun with nothing inside is usually referred to as a "mahn tou" of which they're quite famous in Shandong (ditto for Shandong style buns in Taiwan and elsewhere). There's a variant that's fried (exterior is golden brown), which some Chinese restaurants refer to them as "silver threaded rolls" or 銀絲卷 (although entering the chinese words in google image search shows some unfried ones), although some versions have the interior look like delicate braids (hence the word "thread" inside). Last time I had one was in Hong Kong at some Northern style Chinese restaurant. Good stuff, used to soak up the stir fried beef or lamb sauces.

Put contents inside a steamed mahn tou, and suddenly it becomes baozi, or the category of bao's.

In Chinatowns across Japan, pork bao's are called butaman. Meat bao's = nikuman. Many Japanese have identified these as comfort food too.

[ipsedixit]

English is a poor vehicle to use to categorize Chinese foodstuffs.

[limster]

BTW silver threaded rolls/ying2 si1 juan4 can also be steamed.

[ipsedixit]

And I actually prefer them steamed!

[K K]

Ditto. For some reason I must have been confused between the naming of the fried vs unfried one, I recall there were different names in my youth.

[ipsedixit]

Were you maybe thinking of "hwa jwan" (literal translation, "flower rolls")? Which to me are the like fancy version of mantou (with added scallions).

[xIcewind]

How we make our hua juan is without scallions. We rise the dough up, stretch it, then twist it to the shape. I find it holds the "steam" better, and thus comes out more puffy. Also, you use more oil for it, so it has a different taste than "man tou", which we don't often make.

Tatamagouche has a good picture of bao zi.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Hey, do you do double rising? Or single rising?

"I find it holds the "steam" better,"

Better than what? Are you saying that hua juan without scallions hold better than hua juan with scallion?

"I find it holds the "steam" better, and thus comes out more puffy"

Do you mean it holds the steam better or it holds the overall structure better? I am guessing you meant the latter.

[buttertart]

At least when we were in TPE the unfried ones were called the yin (silver) si bao and the fried the jin (gold) si bao. Makes sense given the colors - describing mantou as silver and gold is poshifying menu speak.

[K K]

I still can't remember how they were classified in Hong Kong for the life of me, but what you say for TPE makes perfect sense to me.

[tatamagouche]

Hi—

Yes , and I don't want you to think I'm putting you through this whole thing about buns again like I did 2 months ago... :)

But these were definitely bao, in that they were made from risen dough—there was some fluffiness there—but just not quite as fluffy as most I've had. Stuffed, not xiao long bao. See pic, compared to

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/23/318...

[Chemicalkinetics]

I didn't know there were a bun discussion 2 months ago. What happened?

Did you make these buns? They look nice. I think ipsedixit and others are correct. Obviously, all buns/bao are fluffy to good measures, but some can be relatively fluffier. I think there is a regional difference, as well as simply bao difference. There are certain styles of bao (bun) which are expected to be fluffier - despite regional. Anyhow, typical Dongbei (Northeastern) baozi strike to be fluffy while maintain a good mouthfeel or texture. Part of this mouthfeel and texture they refer to is from elastic binding texture from gluten formation. On the opposite end, you have something like Cantonese BBQ buns (Char siu bao) which goes out of its way to use spring flour and even wheat starch 澄粉 along with various ingredients. These lower the flour protein content and therefore gluten formation. It is fluffy, but it has less chewiness or mouthfeel to it.

If I may use two extreme examples, then they are like western bread and western cake. Obviously, bread and cake can be both fluffy, but their chewiness/binding texture are very difference. When you tear a bread and a cake by hands, you can definitely feel that difference. A cake also has a certain "lightness" and "refinement" which a bread is not supposed to be.

[tatamagouche]

Well, I'll be damned if I can find the thread, but it was long, ipsedixit and KK were very helpful and I believe you weighed in helpfully too.

No, I didn't make them, a chef from a place I love nearby who's from the northeast.

And I think this answers my question! Thanks!

[K K]

NE China? If so then that's perhaps his (and possibly un-intended) re-interpretation of the Cantonese BBQ pork bun.